Season 1 | Episode 9 | Special Guest, RT Therapist & Coach Meghan Eaken

All right, here we are, people.

Rhett, how are you doing, man?

I am doing good. And I'm super excited to have our guest today.

Dude. Our guest today I am super stoked about is Megan, who I used to know as Megan Nash because her and I studied at Fuller together. We did eating our mfts. She saw me back in the day when I was floundering, trying to figure everything out. And Megan was always the smart kid in. In class. So I'm. So.

Is that what you remember?

I do.

Wow.

And I. You always had the good snarky comments, which. Having a good SN comment is always, like, important to me. So I'm sure.

I think that's like, deep in my. Deep in my generational family line is snarky comments.

Yes.

Yeah. Yes. Crazy. That was. We started 15 years ago. I was thinking about that. We're in 2025. We started our program in 2010. That's awesome. Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah. But we are excited. Megan. We're probably going to chat through a few different things today. I know we're going to talk through restoration coaching, which I'm. This is kind of a new thing that's been going on, and you're kind of the. The ringleader around that. And we'll probably also delve into some exciting stuff around anxiety because. Can't get enough of that.

Can't get enough of anxiety.

I love anxiety.

He loves you.

Yes. Yes.

I wish people would watch the videos, hopefully, because you make all the best facial expressions. Like, it's like half of the. Half of the. Just oomph of the podcast is watching your facial expressions.

Yeah.

Yes. So online, if you ever. If you're ever bored and you need someone to laugh at, just turn it on.

Tune in.

Yeah. So. Yeah. Well, Megan, we're excited you're here today. Why don't we start off quickly in the beginning about kind of your pathway into restoration therapy? And then we always like to hear your favorite part about it. I like to.

Yeah.

If you have. If you have, like, one good Sharon or Terry story for us, maybe you can loop that in.

Oh, she's talking about tons of them.

Yeah, we'll see what. We'll see if I can remember. I mean, I mean, it started for me. I think it's called marital therapy. Was our class in grad school. Think it was like our second quarter. Lance. We are sitting eager, young, blossoming, wannabe therapists, and we learn this model. And it's. Think it's interesting because I was thinking about how when I learned it just in an educational setting. I remember feeling the sense of. That this is such an established theory, that this feels like it's been around forever, right? Like, it just. The way that it made sense, the way that it worked. And, you know, upon reflection, like, Terry was writing the book on it, I think the year we were in grad school, right? I mean, he'd been developing it for the years prior, but, I mean, I think a person in our cohort was like, you know, the student editor on it and helping it with. I mean, it's just crazy to think that he was really pioneering it. But I remember. I mean, I remember sitting in class. I remember hearing about the pain cycle. And this is a thing that everyone says, but it just makes sense. I mean, I think there's something that the brain really likes when something makes sense. It helps us relax a little bit. And I think there was something about seeing the pain cycle on a board and recognizing my own that felt deeply organizing for me. I know we talk about organizing as a therapist. We do it for our clients, but I think for me personally, as somebody who's more of an internal thinker and processor. And I went into grad school in my third. I mean, I think I was 30 when I went into grad school. So I had had adult relationships at that point. I wasn't married yet, but having watched some of my relationships develop and end this, the model just really helped me organize around my own reactivity and my own pain in a way that nothing else did. So that was the start of it. And I'll say one. One Terry story, I will say. So there was. That was the first year we had a live cohort. Lancy were in that, where people get to literally do live therapy behind the glass wall. Terry's watching. No pressure, right?

I mean, you should do.

You should do a podcast on just that experience, right? You and Corey. I, for some reason, didn't get in. I think I didn't apply at the right time, or for some reason, there wasn't enough space. But then I realized, really want to be in this. Like, I really want to learn this. And so I went to Terry and I said, I think someone had to drop out or something. I forget. And I said, can you let me in? Can you let me in? I want to be in. And he said, no. For some reason, he couldn't. There was like. I think he was being fair to the people already in the group, which was so understandable. But instead he was like, how about I meet with you for 30 minutes every Tuesday, and I'll listen to your tape. And I was like, wait, what? You're just gonna sit in your office with me and you're gonna listen to my therapy and you're gonna. And I will never forget that he listened. I mean, I still remember the client he listened to. It was like my second client ever. And he listened to me rough my way through a pain and pee cycle with somebody. I just like the generosity of that. Right. Like just the student really wanting this. He has to say no, but he said yes. And that, that solidified it for me. I mean, just getting to work one on one with him was really powerful.

Yeah. The authenticity is just so amazing around them. And the, just the way that they live this, they live and breathe this. And you know, you know, I remember talking to them. I, I, I, I steal this line from them. I always say, like, when I retire, I want to do therapy for free.

It's like.

And I remember hearing Sharon, Sharon Hargrave say, like, when, when we finish, we just want to supervise people for free. Like, that's what we want.

That's totally their heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think isn't that just a great example of balance and flexibility though? Like Terry said, no, he had a boundary. I think that's totally appropriate. But flexed, like, also was giving and loving. I mean, I don't even know if I remember. I'm sure he remembers it. But for me as the student, getting to be one on one with him and learning from him is such a gift. Yeah.

I'm sure he remembers the brilliant therapeutic work in that tape of your second session you were playing.

Oh, my gosh.

I actually got a little bit of anxiety thinking about, do you remember your first? And I don't mean the one way mirror stuff that we did like on campus, but do you remember your first walk down the hall with a real client, like in your practicum, like, just taking that person back to the room for the first time to practice?

100%. Yeah. I remember the client. I mean, I remember this person's name. I remember the feeling, thinking, this poor girl has no idea how green this therapist is. But it was also super exciting. I remember feeling this, like, energy about it. I remember actually sending an email, I think, to me, Young and Terry, probably Jim Furrow, right before the session and being like, okay, I'm going in. They were probably like, oh my gosh, another anxious student. I just remember feeling the bigness of the moment. Right? Yeah, Rhett, I totally remember that feeling. The walk is A long walk. It is.

It just feels so heavy. Which, you know, I guess coming from an RT model, the idea of, like, safety, you know, we can hopefully even in that first session, bring to a client that allows us just to kind of settle into the work is really, really important. I had this memory, Megan, and maybe I'm totally wrong. It's like 10 years ago on Pepperdine's campus, me, you and Sharon went to Marmalade Cafe for lunch when I was doing some of that pastoral ministry anxiety work. Do you remember that?

Yes, I. I remember you being. I don't remember the lunch, but I remember you being there.

Yeah, that was a long time ago because I missed the opportunity to really know you and Lance, because I'd been. I had already finished grad school, and I had started my MFT program, too, when I was 30, was 2005. So it's cool how we've all circled back.

Yeah, I remember you. I remember you being in the lore of RT and being like, Rhett's anxiety, man, and like, he's so great at talking about. And you would, I think, as you spoke, actually, at one of the summits on anxiety, I think that was my first kind of, oh, this is who Rhett is experienced. Well.

And that just says a lot about the community, I think, because I really look back at that moment because Terry asked me to speak on anxiety and fear, and it was like the first talk, like, in the room to all the people. And I don't really feel like I had a place being in that position to do that, honestly. But it's another example of, like, Terry and Sharon and the community, people around, helping people move into practice and gain experience and to learn things and that we don't have to be experts on stuff, that the way that we become better at something is by putting it into practice. I think that was like, 2016. Yeah, I remember that moment. 2017, somewhere around there. So I'm excited to circle back to this time and place. And, Lance, I was thinking we should start off talking about coaching because this is like, the new thing. Yeah. Speaking of experts, Megan is the expert on RT coaching, so can we add the word emerging? Emerging.

Emerging.

Emerging.

Emerging.

Yeah, that sounds even better.

Tell us, for those who don't know, like, explain what RT coaching is, and I'd be curious to hear more of the genesis of it, how this even got started and. And where it is today and where you'd like to see it go.

Yeah, yeah. So, interestingly, if I were to tell someone on the street who doesn't know restoration at all. What I would say restoration coaching is, is very similar to what we would say the restoration therapy model is. We teach people, we through insight, through practice, what it is to live into your peace cycle. We, we bring three bring, excuse me, people through a process of self regulation so that they can be their best selves with themselves in work settings, in their home life, but then also like relationally, like how am I? So that doesn't sound very different than the therapy. I think once we get inside the coaching model, it's, it's really how it shakes out that it's a little different. Like what is the sort of mechanisms around coaching that are a little different than therapy simply by the nature of it being coaching. And I would say, now let me caveat this and say there are just like, there are a lot of different therapy models. There are a lot of different coaching models. I mean there's a lot of different ways people coach. So I, I'm speaking about my coaching process. So it's not necessarily this is coaching. I really want to be clear. If someone's like, oh, she's telling us about all of coaching. I'm not, I'm telling you about my experience of coaching.

So does your coaching have like a name? Like is there like a.

My company, my coaching, my coaching business is called your grown up voice. Yeah, I named it your grown up voice voice because at the end of the day I think when you get to your fourth step, that's where we find your grown up voice and that's where we find that, that best self, that regulated self coming forward, whether that's invulnerability, engaging, where you would normally withdraw, whatever it might be for your unique cycle. Yeah, I like it. I played around with it, but I was like, I like it.

Well, and we should say besides you being an lmft, you know, there are what probably there's lots of coaching and it's a wild wild west. And there are probably two major coaching organizations that, yeah, seem to have the clout, which is ICF and then bcc. And you're, you're with the BCC board certified coach. And you had encouraged me to do that myself. And so you are a board certified coach, Anna. Lmft.

Correct.

The model you like to practice in coaching is this RT model. Is that fair to say?

Correct. Yeah, RC model. Because we take away the word therapy, but yeah, exactly. Yeah, you said it.

Well, I think there's one other too. The imiu.

Is that a joke? Am I missing something?

I Make it up.

Okay.

See this is coaching.

Oh, is that a real thing? Yeah, the coaches, that there really is, there really is a lot of. I make it up. I mean a lot of certifications in the, I make it up in the coaching world. Yeah, no, I mean I went through a process of becoming trained as a coach separate from restoration. The restoration model had been in me for 15 years, working it out therapeutically. But yeah, I, I decided at some point I want to move into this world of coaching. I can tell you about that if that's of interest. But I, I actually trained to become a, an executive coach. I'd been working a little bit with businesses, teaching the model in more of a psychoeducation format. I thought, oh, this would be really helpful in a business setting. I still do that from, you know, from time to time. But my coaching has sort of evolved into actually focusing a lot more on non clinical anxiety, which is where I get really excited to do a lot of good work. Going back to your question about what the difference is, I think for me the coaching model that I use is really the program that I set up is really rooted in accountability. So there's still insight, there's still tools that we do, there's still this idea of practice. Right. Those of us in the RT world know like practice is a huge piece of what we do as therapists. But I think what coaching really brings in and I bring in for my clients is accountability. Because the way my program is set up is you're doing work in the session. But I would say the majority of the work they're doing is outside of the session. It's almost like a physical therapist. You're like, okay, I'm coming for this session and you're going to make me do exercises, but you got to go home and do the exercises. Right. So it's, but it's pretty strong accountability. I have people who I'm like voxing with, if you know the Voxer app, it's like a non video like walkie talkie app. I do that type of work with my coaching clients of checking in with them. What are you working on? Where are you at with this particular homework? And so it really is in its pure form. It's coaching. It's, I'm, I'm, I'm keeping you accountable to show up to the work of, of the restoration model, particularly with anxiety. That makes sense.

Yeah. And I remember you and I have had conversations over the years because I was doing some corporate coaching.

Yeah.

In fact, it's funny how Your brain remembers things. I remember on my way to spring break in March of 2018 to Colorado and taking and walking through a McDonald's parking lot, having a phone call with you about some kind of big corporate client you were like gonna work with. And so yeah, it wasn't McDonald's though.

They're not a PA.

It wasn't McDonald's.

It wasn't McDonald's. But this has been in the works, I guess with you for a long time. It seems like this transition and I'm curious, was there a moment where you're like, I wanna, I don't know, like, I wanna make, move this into coaching and did you go to the Hargraves or someone have a conversation about a coaching piece or was it, I don't know, just more organic, I guess.

Are you? So personally, for me, the transition to coaching was I saw an ad on like social media that says, are you a therapist and are you bored? And I was like, yeah, I'm bored. Like, literally it was like this algorithm is, is, is, you know, it's connected to me and I didn't sign up for the particular program that it was in, but everything that this particular coach who was a therapist and became a coach Artic was like speaking to my soul. And I think part of it was for me, coaching gives me the excuse to create, to kind of pull in my gifts in different ways and organize it. Like, I love teaching. I love really, at the end of the day, I think I'm probably more of a coach than I am a therapist. I love keeping people accountable, I love challenging people. I like kind of having an organization around a really strong focus. Like, I think for me coaching is like an excuse to get hyper focused on some work in therapy. You know, we can feel like it's all, it's like, yeah, we can focus and we have a really clear path for change with the RT model. But sometimes it can feel like really wide. And I was really excited to learn the art of coaching and also learn like, oh, I can, I mean, in the business language, I can create a product that people can come. If it fits with what they're looking for, they can come. And I've already got it all figured out in terms of what we're going to do and we're going to tweak it for the individual. They're going to walk through this program with me and in six weeks or 12 weeks we're going to, we're going to be done and maybe there's additional work we'll do But I really liked that idea a lot and coaching was really the avenue for me. So that was sort of the like, are you bored? Yes, I need to figure this out in this way. And then with respect to restoration coaching, so then I went on my journey, I like became a coach and I was like, I know I'm going to use the RT model somehow in this. I was thinking about that for business. I think Rhett, you and I for sure talked about that, but I wasn't exactly sure how because it wasn't formalized. And then Sharon and Terry, I mean they are like at the end of the day they are inventors. Like I think about them and they like think of things and they see things and they make them happen. And I think they saw the validity of coaching and how it was emerging, especially in the last five years and they said we need to. This seems like a good fit. Whatever's happening in coaching in the world fits very much with the heart of the restoration model, which is not navel gazing, not spending so much time in our pain, but actually getting up and moving. I mean in some ways the coaching model, by nature of the culture around coaching is more suited to restoration than sometimes therapy. So many of us therapists are like, oh yeah, I have to remember to get up. I have to remember to keep my accountability happening with my clients. It's like this is built into the coaching model. People who sign up for coaching, many of them especially in the business world, but also just by nature of what you described to them of what coaching is, you're like, okay, I'm ready to work really hard. I'm like, oh, I love that. Let's get in there. Like let's, let's do this. And so the development was basically we sat in on a restoration therapy training and initially just thought about how do we transform this? How do we, what do we have to take away, what do we have to add to make this something that fits within a non clinical model? And we've done three trainings so far. I mean we just were like three in and we're growing and changing and I'm, it's, I believe it's going to get sharper and sharper and better and better. But yeah, it's exciting.

So someone were to go to restoration coach, to your restoration coach training. It's two days, right?

It is two days online.

What would they expect to learn versus like say let's say you're like level one trained therapist.

Yeah.

If they were to sign up for restoration coaching, like I know you had Michael Cox on there the other last la in your last one. A few last week. Like what would, what would they be excited to learn about? Like what are the different like things that I feel like coaching for? A lot of people are probably listening, they probably don't understand what it is. I think I really like something talking about like one being coaching is very, there's a regimen to it, right? Here's my 12 week program, I'm going to take you through it. There is a high level accountability. I'm going to vox with you, I'm going to check in with you, I'm going to make sure you're doing it. So it's like very engaged. But yeah. What would someone experience if they were going to your coaching training?

So the gate is wide initially for the initial training, we assume someone doesn't have any restoration knowledge. And I had people in our last training who were in the skills stuff down in San Diego and were very acquainted in leadership in that. So know the model really well. We had people like Michael Cox, Michael Cox was really sitting second chair to me but needed to go through the training. So I just said, hey, you can be a leader, but also you're gonna sit through the training. People who teach this model all the way over to people who have just gotten connected to Ron Deal's mindful marriage and they're like, I don't know anything about this but I know I wanna learn more. So like no theory. So I am as an instructor working on the balance of what does it look like to teach the theory? Because we do teach the theory. I think that's really important. The gate is wide and so we're teaching the theory. Integrated into that however, is we try it on really quickly. So one of the things that we really wanted to make unique to the coaching training is we're not just learning the theory, we're jumping in and we're trying it. And it's going to be messy, but within the first half a day people are in breakout rooms and they're trying on the theory. And specifically for a therapist, you said if someone's gone to a level one, we're really honing the skill of doing this in a non clinical format. And what does it look like to deal with pain? Emotions come up, pain comes up. If we're asking people about their pain, they're going to talk about their pain. And so what does it look like to do that? What's the skills that we use to hold this, acknowledge it, name it, make it real, but but back off when it's getting, when it's getting too deep. So that's a skill that I would say for RT level one, level two therapists that they would learn. And then we also add to it the diff we do a lot of work on. What is the difference between restoration therapy versus restoration coaching? That sort of, sort of baked in. It's like an ingredient that seeps into all the different parts. I will say I'm the growing edge for me in the training is really thinking more creatively about giving people ideas for how to implement this in a coaching practice in a more formalized way. I think I can tell them about my process. There's just like so much time. I mean when you're teaching the theory and you're giving people a practice, there's only so much space and so. But I do think in the future, I think right, you said like, what are you wanting for the future? I would love this training to also include like how do I actually do this in my practice? Because a 12 week thing is my thing. Like giving people ideas and even, you know, specific things. Like for example, as coaches it's very normal for you to get outside feedback. A 360 is something in the business world that a lot of people who receive coaching get, which is a 360 is asking your peers, the people who work for you, your leaders, what, what they think of you, where do you need to grow? And in the, in the therapy world we're like, you know, obviously confidentiality. You don't, you don't often. Even in the therapy room, we work really hard at not saying oh, let your spouse talk about your coping. We really want the person to connect to what are they doing in the room. In the coaching world we're like, you're here, you're signing up for growth. I have someone, I have, part of my program is someone if they're willing. I want you to reach out to three people who you trust and say, look at my, look at this list of coping words specific to anxiety. My coping sheet is specific to anxiety. Coping in your mind, coping in your body and coping in your behavior. What do you see that I do when I'm stressed? Oh my gosh, it's intense, it's intense. But I, I think it's, it's eye opening and what. One of the critical steps that we do is I work with my client and say, okay, just because someone gave you feedback doesn't mean that it's A true or B something that you are ready to say, yeah, I, I want to take accountability for that. So that piece is still really important. But at least we get, you know, people are texting or reaching out or showing the sheet to their husband and their best friend and their sister and they're sort of hearing the same things. When I get stressed, when I get anxious, this is what I do. I think it's really powerful. I think it's really powerful reflection. And then. So that's an example of something that I, you know, that I want to kind of integrate more into the training as we're going forward. One thing that we just started is I, I'm starting a consultation group for coaches who have gone through the training. So people who have done this training at various levels, they can sign up for a consultation group with me. And it's right now I'm just doing a six week consultation and we'll see how it goes. But it'll be like a small group and we'll kind of work out the principles in the moment. So.

Yeah, I love that. I've never thought, I do this intervention with clients. I'll have them go to like their like four closest friends or like including family and the like. And I'll have them like talk to them and ask them like, who do you think I am working on identity work.

Yeah.

And then I'll always get them to ask like, what's your favorite memory of me?

I love that.

So we get this feedback on like all these like really nice, like, like such a therapy, like, type thing. But I love like coaching's like, hey, let's jump in. Tell me all the bad things about me. I love.

Tell me all this stuff. I mean we do. I think I actually have something that you created, Lance, the four boxes thing where we have people, like, I'm forgetting what it is, but we, I have people connect to. Like, tell me your, tell me your group of people. When you say I'm not alone, who is the core people that you are thinking of when you claim you're not aloneness? And then like, what activities can you do? Like, there's, there's like positive things that I have people go out to. But I think, I think anxiety in particular people are disconnected to how people experience them because anxiety's job is to protect themselves from the world and from the people around them. So they're not super focused on how they're affecting other people because they're, they're in such a fear state and they're so myopic. So I think this work really helps Them shed light on. Oh yeah. It's not just that my husband's quiet when I'm verb. Overly verbally processing. He's, he's overwhelmed or he's feeling Right. Like there's a cycle there for him.

Yeah. I love that. It just opens up a good dialogue. Right?

It does.

No, I was thinking the guy who. Because it's interesting how like RT is kind of baked in you and you start to see everything through the RT lens.

Yeah.

I remember in 2015, Hilton Hotel here, like a local had me come speak to their staff. It was like 35 people to do a two day workshop.

Yeah.

I taught them the pain and peace cycle in this corporate setting which was challenging because, you know, you don't talk about emotions too much. So it was really raw and everything. But as I've worked on that, the guy who, Todd Sandel, who really trained me, who was trained at Fuller, who worked at the Hideaway, who's now a full time coach, he uses a language of like, understanding, like how do I show up in a room? You know, how am I walking into a room and how are people like perceiving me? And sometimes we don't know unless we get feedback from other people of like 100.

Yeah.

And I, I like the freedom you have there, both of you. It sounds like I don't often think a lot in the therapy, the room here, the therapy room. Go out and ask these people these questions and come back and let's talk about it. But in coaching I have no, there's no qualms about that. Like I get.

Yeah, it's not interesting.

People on a 360. So that's, I don't know. That's interesting. I don't know if that's a disconnect. I don't know.

If.

I don't know, maybe we can. There's a conversation around how is therapy different? How is coaching different? What are the boundaries? How are they.

Yeah. Or a conversation of what can coaching teach therapists? Honestly, because it's not it. When you, if it's the client doing this in a therapy room, you're not breaking confidentiality. In a coaching setting I get permission, you know, from them to say, I'm going to send your boss, you know, a 360 on you. I mean you're going to, you're going to tell me to people, you're in charge of telling me the people you want me to connect with you on. And I'm going to go reach out to them and get the feedback and then I organize it and present it in summary form so that it's helpful to them. That's a more formal 360 within my anxiety program. It's a little bit more like, hey, you pick the people. You go show them this list of coping. And it's a little bit more like that. But to your point, right. When you're in therapy mode, Red. We have this culture around therapy that we just like. It has to come from the client, it has to come from them. And I really think we can break that a little bit. I think I'm seeing Terry break that. You know, over the years, when you're like, the truth doesn't have to come just from them. We could suggest a truth and see how. I mean, that's in a different category, but, like, see how that fits. The coping doesn't have to just come from you. We can hold up a mirror. I personally will say, I mean, when I think about my marriage, my husband has been so helpful in helping me recognize my coping behaviors. I'm not like, I, Like, I'm not gonna yell the top of my lungs where that's like, really obvious when my coping is more like I'm terse or I'm really harsh. Right? It's like that stuff where I'm not feeling or noticing that coping until someone holds up the mirror and I'm like, oh, yeah, there I am.

I love that. That's such a nice invitation for things. And. And, you know, God bless Jason. You know, God bless Jason. He's a good guy. But, yeah, I. I remember Terry, like, when I was doing practicum with him, he would have us do interventions like that. He would have us. He would like. He would, like. We would have them do their four steps. And then their four step was like, to ask for help. So Terry would be like, okay, you're gonna go in the room and you're gonna go make sure this woman asks someone for help this week. And she's like, I can't do that. I can't do that. Well, that's what your four step is. And I remember this client we were working with.

This is.

I feel like it's long enough ago.

But anyways, changed a few details.

Yeah, yeah, it was a guy and very tall. Very tall man.

Yes.

And. And, you know, he. We had him, like, ask someone for help carrying stuff, and he found this amazing relief as he started asking people for help. And he's like, wow, this is something I can do. And it's like, from a. Like a place of peace. And he kind of like, it worked. It was kind of this interesting factor of like doing your fourth step recognize and then being where it highlights your truth more.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

I can't remember, you know, but like it would be like if I asked someone for help, the person helped me. So now I know I'm not alone.

Yeah. I love that example. And I. It's the embodiment of it and it's the working out of that fourth step. I am, I think something that I think a lot about is the fourth step. I think probably about the fourth step more than anything else. I think particularly in my coaching, because at the end of the day, what are you doing? And yeah, I mean, that is such a good example. I, in my program, I have people, once we have your truths, I have people go through an exercise with each truth and identify what's an activity, a hobby or an action that really boosts this message for you. And that's exactly what you just mentioned. Right. Oh, I can ask for help. Today we're really putting experience out in the world, not just in the, in the coaching office or in the therapy office. That's so good.

Yeah. And then if they come in, they didn't do it. It's an instant win because you're like, where were you in your pain cycle?

You know, it's like totally just drop right in.

Wrap it right around.

Yeah.

Let me frame something up and you two tell me what you think, because I've been. People ask me a lot recently when they reach out to me. Coaching versus therapy, Right?

Yeah.

I know both licensing organizations say don't do therapy or don't do coaching based on who license you. Right. But sometimes I feel like therapy, historically, I'm not saying, but historically therapy, there's a sense of. We do a lot of digging in the past and we sit with things and feelings. There's tons of insight work. Right. And I've. People often think of coaching as like, we set these goals and we move towards these actions and it's very future oriented. And I guess what I like about RT is we need to spend some time understanding this insight piece because if we don't, if we don't understand those hidden emotional underlying issues, we're not going to have the ability to actually move into action. Right.

And so for me, rt, it'll be more empty action. Yeah.

Yeah. And we just can't come in here and say, let's do this, do the do this unless we understand what's, what's, what's impeding that potentially right in terms of emotional issues or blockage. So I don't know. I guess I have found with RT there's this. For me it combines the best in terms of doing the insight, heavy lifting work but then moving us into practice.

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think, yeah, restoration coaching is a gift for the coach who's already practicing coaching and has to deal with emotions of their client like the emotional dysregulate, the emotional dysregulation that happens when their coachee shows up and their board meeting just blew up. Because XYZ or you're a parenting coach and yeah, you're helping with the skills of. What are the skills in the developmental knowledge I need to help my client parent your 4 year old. But man, it would be really helpful to understand the emotional dysregulation that's happening in the parent that's dislodging them from being that calm, connecting, loving parent. So I think you're hitting the nail on the head and you're sort of speaking of it from that coaches like pure, pure coach perspective. So I, in my executive coaching community that I have, you know, just have made connections with people. This model to them is like, oh, finally I have a way to talk about emotion and pain without doing therapy. Oh my God. Like there is just a feeling of release for them because they didn't have, they don't necessarily. They might do like assessments on emotional intelligence and they hear emotional intelligence for a leader is hugely indicative of success. But there isn't really, to my knowledge a great emotional self regulation model for coaches out there who are living in that goal setting. Let's work space. So I think you're hitting the nail on the head. The people who are already in the RT world coming to coaching, there's subtle shifts and they're important shifts and they really are important. But if you have the theory and you have, you have the practice and you have the baseline for it already we're just nuancing that for the coaching world. And a lot of people I think who have come to this training are thinking, oh, maybe I want to formalize into coaching, maybe I want to get more training in coaching. You know, we don't train people how to be a coach. We're just like basically taking the restoration model and saying add this to your coaching. So people are doing that kind of in different ways. Right? Maybe starting with the model first or coming in already as a coach. So yeah.

And I think the model, I mean honestly in, in my opinion the model allows you to Move fluidly in two worlds where you can operate within the confines of a therapeutic relationship with RT model, and then you can move to a coaching relationship and operate within that coaching relationship and use rt. And it allows to you to be effective in both worlds and both connect to feelings, but then also move into new actions and behaviors, into that truth. That's what I love about it. It's.

Yeah.

There's some flexibility to it that allows you to. To do different things with it. That's why it's so powerful to me.

I. I completely agree. I think it's. I mean, we're never going to get rid of restoration therapy. There is such a need for having space to do some deep emotional work and some healing and be able to do those more intense interventions. Right. Like reparenting. That's really sacred work. But not everyone needs that. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm really curious because, like, that's the part where I'm, like, want to, like, kind of land for a second. Would that be okay?

Totally.

I. Thinking about, like, so what would that look like if I'm a coach? You talk about, like, we go into the feelings, but we don't go too deep. Right. Which, you know, like, that sounds interesting. Right.

And I think your brain is probably like, what is your brain saying in that moment? Like, how do I do? Like, what. What. What does that mean?

Yes. Well, actually, I'm a seven on the Enneagram, so I'm. I am an expert at being very light.

Yeah. So coaching might be good for you.

I know. I'm like, wow, maybe this is it.

Lance and I are getting into conversations about death at the summit. He's like, oh, my gosh, can we please stop talking about death? Like, I know. Let's talk about vacations. Yeah.

But Lance, work. He is, like, deep in the feelings.

Like I know he is.

So that's. That's the interesting paradox with you.

Yes. Well, I. I like to play, so I think sometimes with feelings, we can play.

And. And I also just keep going. We sort of interrupted you. You're. You're like, yeah.

How do you go. How do you touch the feeling piece but not go too deep?

Yeah. Yeah, that's. That was kind of my major thought was like, so.

Yeah.

Train them. And. And what is your. Like. And. Yeah. What's. Yeah. What are you noticing?

So the major work of our restoration coach is the organizational piece. And when we organize, we're. We're connecting it to an identity. Right. Or love or a safety message. And so the stuff that you already know to do. Many of our RT community know to do. The goal is to extract the emotional experience and put a name on it so that we can start to recognize it in other moments. Once I. So how do you walk someone through a pain cycle? Right. Well, we all do it in our. In our own way. But the. The art of it shows up differently based on you as a coach or therapist. But essentially, you know, one of the most basic ways is, you know, when you're in that place, what's the message that you get about yourself? Or what's the message you get about this relationship? And often they're looking at either a sheet of words or they're just thinking and they'll label it once they've labeled it. I feel really inadequate. I feel really incapable. When I'm in that assessment place, I will track it a little bit. Sharon does this historically and now dede with Relate Strong, we can reference the past. As a coach, we get to say, I want to check in. Does that feeling have any history for you? Is there a place where you felt that a lot in your life, or is there a moment in time where you felt that a lot in your life and people. Well, yeah, I grew up in a home where I was. I was only good if I was getting straight A's. And there's a time where I wasn't getting straight A's or whatever. I'm making this up. But they. They reference a moment. You're like, okay, and the work there is. You don't even have to do that as a coach. Certainly in certain contexts, I may not even do it. I might say, when did you feel this in your business life? Most recently, if I'm working with an executive. But the goal of it is I want to reference the past to give it some legs, to give it some grounding. And then I'll do a little bit of, like, just general human work, which is acknowledging, reflect that, validate that, okay, this makes so much sense. It's the stuff that we're already doing. I'm doing all of that. But where I stop is the emotion comes up for them or I don't say, okay, now that we have that story of man, you're on that hamster wheel over and over and over again. You had to perform and perform and perform. If you didn't perform, your father withdrew from you. Go back to that little boy. Tell me about him. Do you hear my voice is changing? I'm shifting. I want to get connected to that pain. I want him, that client, to get connected to that pain. I'm not doing any of that. That's where I stop. I say, oh, you got this message of I'm not enough unless I'm performing. That makes so much sense. Man, that, that sounds rough. Yeah, it was kind of rough. Okay. But this makes sense in the, in the work, in that business meeting now. This makes so much sense. So I'm going to put the word inadequate or incapable up here and we're going to know there's some legs to this. But we're working on this right now. So, I mean, that's me just dropping into where I could go with that person. Especially in the assessment in a therapy setting. I'm wanting to make alive more of that pain so we can do a little bit deeper work in the coaching setting. We're labeling it, we're referencing, I'm acknowledging it, I'm normalizing it just enough to get them on board with the word so that there is some validity there.

That. Because that's versus therapy, essentially. Like therapy involves that. But coaching keeps us at this level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What we say is we're not expanding negative emotion in the coaching model. Now, I always like to say, like not intentionally expanding negative emotion. I mean, you're, you know, you're the leader in the room, but you're not in charge of someone's emotional experience at every turn. So as far as it depends on me, I know when I slow my pace, I change my voice, I direct them towards visualization. I am. We. We're all upping the emotional intensity of an experience. I'm not doing any of that in coaching.

Am I wrong? I. I can't remember because you and I had a lot of different dialogues around this. Do you do phys like body work though, as well with it?

I do. I mean, I do more experiential work. When you say body work, I mean, I. They do postures for sure. I think the thing, the way I delineate it is I'm really trying to expand positive emotion. So when we're like in our truth, I'm in our peace cycle. I'm like, we're going to do body work related to the positive things like show me your stance when you are capable. Yeah, some things like that.

Nice, cool.

Even like thinking and visualizing how you're going to walk into a room. Like if you're coaching somebody about a specific meeting, maybe that they're anxious, have anxiety about, it's. You could get them up, of course, and. But some of it may be some visualization Work along the way about how they want to present themselves in. In that. That different place, that truth place. Place for them.

Absolutely. Yeah. And trying it on. I mean, I think. Did I hear this from you, Rhett, in another podcast? Someone. I forget where I heard this. Where you're. Where we really just start doing the fourth step in the room, and you are that person. Like, I am your boss right now. Talk to me about how you want to bring up this desire for a raise or you're scared to ask for that vacation that in the culture where no one takes vacation. Okay, let's try it on. Let's practice. Like, putting on the fourth step in the moment is really powerful. That's coaching or therapy.

I don't know if that's me, but it sounds good, so I'll take credit.

Sounds good. I think it was. I think it was you.

Here's Red is really big about vacation. Like, yeah, he. He, He. He is always thinking about vacation.

I. I actually think Lance's head is. He's thinking about something right now. And here's what I think he's thinking is, how do I land a job as an RT coach with the San Diego Padres?

I can totally see you doing that.

Could you imagine that, Lance, I would.

Not turn it down. We actually, in my practice here, we have a guy, he's a clinical sports psychologist, and he works with professional sports teams. So it's.

I think about this athletes, too, right? The coaching. The sports therapist. But there's like a coaching piece that's important in a athletic room or athletic team where they're not really doing therapists. They may have therapists already, by the way.

Right.

They're like the coach. And so, I mean, I think about. I'll have athletes in here. And now, this is interesting. I'll say. What happens to you? Like, the kids, a minor. So the parents. I mute the parents first. And they're like, if you can do anything to not, like, make this feel like it's counseling, you know, like, it's more just like coaching my kid. But a lot of times with an athlete, you know, we'll have him visualize walking up to the free throw line. And what's the feeling you feel on the free throw line? Oh, I'm feeling like I'm gonna fail. Okay, when you. When you feel like you're gonna fail, what happens? Well, I notice I start dribbling the ball less, and I start, like, hyperventilating. Right? And then we'll kind of just visualize. Okay. On that free throw line. What do you want to practice? Like telling yourself just over time and as you tell yourself that, I want you to imagine letting the ball go. And, and to me, we're not getting too deep. This high school boy maybe is not ready to go too deep with the emotions, but we're just walking him through the four steps.

Yeah.

A sports, sports context. And so, so good. Where I'm going with that. There's lots of applications, I guess is the point in terms of this coaching.

Yeah. Well, what you just said made me think, I'd love to clarify when I say we don't expand negative emotion, especially my anxiety program, a lot of what I'm actually helping people to do is when they anxiety is in the RT world, in the restoration coaching world, we label it as coping. But I, I know when they start to grow and my clients start to grow, they will start to feel some anxiety weirdly because they're giving up some of their old coping mechanisms. And so when I say like I don't want people to feel negative emotions or we're not going to expand them in the, in the, in the coaching setting where, or, or in my anxiety therapy setting, the more you are living into your peace cycle, you're going to do new things, which means I'm going to feel a little nervous about that or feel, feel some anxiety. And so even letting someone visualize that experience of walking up to the free throw line and, and standing there, they might feel nervous. That's not a bad thing. We're actually giving them practice. They might feel awkward in the room trying to talk to their boss. That's a good thing. We're pushing them through this experience. I do this with somebody who is having some test anxiety. Right. We're going to visualize the room that you're going to take this test in. That's a good thing. That's practice. I love that.

Yeah, it's, You know, I would say if you, if you line up on the line to run the 100 meter dash, you should be nervous. Right. If you're, if you aren't nervous, something's probably wrong. Like the flip side of anxiety is also this like nervous energy we have.

Right.

We've kind of labeled any emotion that's not happy and joyful as something's wrong with us and.

Right.

I've kind of.

Yeah, I often, I totally agree. I often with my anxious clients, once we're through sort of the model of regulation, we start to see if we can add the word excitement. Right. I'm on that line and I'm ready to. I'm ready to run or I'm ready to take off and I feel some energy. Can I actually. Can I actually label that for, like, I'm actually excited about this, and I don't know how it's gonna go. How do I tolerate that?

I love that.

That's good. Yeah.

It's like, that is a very much a truth, like, place versus, like, the. The pain. Place says, what if I fail?

Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

Do my best and I'm excited. Right. I think that's. That's such a good, you know, to kind of look at the two different spectrums of it all, like.

Yeah, and the brain listens to that. I mean, the brain. If you say, like, I'm excited, it'll look for excitement. Wait, am I. Yeah, I am. Oh, if I'm getting up to speak, right? I'm like, oh, my peers are listening to me speak. I feel some nervousness. But wait, I actually really enjoy getting up and getting to teach things that I'm learning. Can I, like, can I step into that and sort of bounce my way into excitement and tolerate the unknown? The unknown is, you know, we don't know how everything. How is it going to land? We don't know. And that's so much of the work of anxiety is tolerating that unknown.

Oh, yeah. I love. I love. Did you guys ever read the book Endure by Alex Hutchison?

I'm sure every time.

Oh, my gosh. I didn't even read this, apparently. Tell me. I just got his.

I just got his new book that just came out, the Explorers Gene.

It's cool.

It looks awesome.

What's the guy's name?

Alex Hutchison.

Oh, yeah, Actually, yeah.

I posted Instagram something about his new book, and I messaged on his Instagram comment, I read the book three times, and he responded. He's like, well, I hope you read my new book at least once. Yeah, that book Endure is awesome, but what are you gonna say about it? Just.

No, but he. There's so much stuff about, like, mindset and, like, when you go into things, like, having a positive mindset makes a huge difference. And even having, like, little talismans of, like, like, this pen in my hand, when I hold this pen, I know that I can win. So. And. And to, like, imbue this pen with the truth of, like, that thing that we have, like, can make a huge difference in how we, like, go through things.

I love that. I love that so much. I think, you know, you're talking and it's Making me think about maybe the difference between like some sense of stress versus anxiety. Right. You were saying, like when you're standing on the line, you're going to feel, you're going to feel nervous. Right. That means there's some level of like, you care about this. And I, I really want to push back against this culture that we're supposed to feel. We're supposed to feel nothing all the time or we're supposed to feel happy all the time, we're supposed to feel peace all the time. Like, that is, that is not a recipe for life. I mean, I think the thing that I get so passionate about working with my anxious clients is they're missing out on their life. Right. Because they're trying to make it so safe. So ironically, getting people to do things, to show up, to do those things, it's like, yeah, you're going to feel this, but you're, you're gonna live. That to me is like, gets me out of bed in the morning. That's exciting. Yeah.

There's a big section in the book which you've read it three times, so you probably have it all.

D like, oh, that's page 57, left paragraph.

Obviously it impacted me though.

But he talks about these runners from. Is it Kenya and like the Rift.

Valley, the High up.

Yeah. So what they, they, what they would do is they would run as hard as they could every time they ran and they, they wouldn't be pacing themselves, they wouldn't be doing anything like that. What they would be doing is they would just push as hard as they could to see how far they could go. And they just keep on like testing their bodies. And that's how like all these records started falling because, like, we're fighting the limits of the human body. And I always think about this, you know, like, that's amazing. Like how they were able to go about it so to, to like playing it safe sometimes makes it so that we get more of the same and maybe we become word therapists sitting in a room. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think, man, the RT community and what we are doing and what we are called to do is, is like get up, move, push ourselves. Like try, try to create and explore and work. I mean, I'm so sensitive to the people who are like completely overperforming right now and who are like, okay, yeah, I just have to keep working 12, 15 hour days and I just have to endure. It's like, that's not necessarily the message for those folks. It's probably More of a message for my makeup, who is, like, ultimately loves eating and sleeping and hanging out with friends, that I have to, like, put myself in a position to work hard. That's just my work. I'm, like, ultimately on reserve unless. Unless something happens. So I'm speaking about my own. My own work, but I love that. I think that's. That's a word for me.

Well, I'm.

See you thinking Rhett.

No, I'm cognizant of the fact that we're all therapists and we all have, like, on the half hour hour meetings, and we have this, like, I could go another, like, two hours with Megan right now, because now, like, I want to talk more about anxiety, but I. I think we should have her back on Lance here sooner than later, and we can pick up our conversation, if that's cool with everybody. But I think in closing, I. I'm, like, curious if there's something, like, you're super excited about right now, Megan. You're like, this. This gets me up. Not. Not lazy. It gets me out of bed. Like, I'm animated about this thing. As it relates to your work, whether it's therapy or coaching or something with the RT model you're playing around with.

Yeah, this is. I'm gonna go personal here a little bit and thinking about. I'm excited about anxiety, and I'm. The work that's happening there, and I'm really excited about the coaching and how that's going to be shaped, and I'm excited to make it better and better. Like, that's a really fun feeling to be. Like, how do. This is already here. It's already good. I think I'm an editor at heart. Like, how do I shape something to get better and better? So I have a lot of energy and excitement for that. I think, personally, I am. I think the summit for me when we were all in Amarillo jolted me in a way that made me realize, like, I. I really want to be faithful to this theory. And to do that, I need to change some things about my life. Like, I need to change some things about my practice. My practice life. And so I think the thing that. I don't know if I'm excited about it, but I'm praying about it. And I'm wondering, like, how do I shape my practice where I can be faithful to show up with the amount of energy it takes to be a restoration therapist and a restoration coach? So I know that's in the. Lance and I chatted. I think we were driving to the airport. I was like, I don't know, Lance, I might have to break something in my practice. I have to break something. I don't even know what that means, but I think I'm excited and scared to be totally vulnerable of like what has to change. And it might be as simple as. I mean, a little example is, Megan, you can't see five clients in a row with the level of energy and work that you. Some people can, but I think at my state and raising a child and you know, running around town doing other, other things, seeing five clients in a row, it's not, it's actually not faithful to the model for me. And so I'm playing with, you know, how do you. What do I need to do to break some of this. These things? Because I'm often of two minds, right? I was like, the mind that's scheduling clients is a different mind than the self who's showing up in the room. I'm like, efficiency, get it done. You know, bring home money for your family. Like, there's that Megan who's like scheduling, but then there's the therapist in the room or the coach in the room and she's not in. They're not collaborating enough. They're not actually connected enough. So not really like a fancy thing. But I'm, I really, honestly, I feel like instead of shaming myself about not pushing myself to work harder, I'm actually want to set up my environment in my work where the best Megan gets to show up. And that's really honoring clients number one. But honoring the theory. Honoring like. Yeah. At the end of the day, I want to bring my 9:00am client the same energy that the, the 1:00 clock gets. I want them to feel and get all of me, you know, as best as I can. Awesome.

Michael Cox and I practice again. You said you're.

You're grown up voice.

Your grown up voice.

That's my grown up voice.

That sounds like grown up voice to me.

It totally is. Lance, you're. You're 100% right. That is my grown up voice. Because my, my pain voice would say, you're not enough. You're not. You're not strong enough. You're not doing enough. That's like. No, you are uniquely made. And at the end of the day, Megan, you're an introvert with only so much energy and use the energy you have for what's. What you can do. Sorry, I kind of stepped on you, right?

Oh, I. That just, it made me think. There's just something in the air around this because Even Michael Cox and I had like a 5 hour, 10 hour car ride both ways up to the RT summit. And when I left, I. That's. That resonates with me. And I think that that's birthed out of the model in the community, which is we have to do better work. We have to become better therapists. Like, it's like, if we're not doing our own work and we're not becoming better therapists and bringing that into the room, then what are we doing? And. Yeah, and so there's something, I think that we've all, like, we've kind of been birthed out of this model that, like, permeates us. I don't know. I'm just excited. I love that you said that because I'm like, oh, I'm. I am not alone.

You're not alone. Yeah. And instead of it, I think the shift for me is instead of it being like, oh, I'm challenged. Like, I'm not enough. It's like, no, actually, I'm empowered. And I'm empowered not just in the room to keep doing the work, but I'm empowered to structure my life in such a way that it works for me. Like, it actually is set up based on my schedule, based on the amount of clients I say yes to. Hard to say no to a client, especially if the referral is from someone you want to say yes to. It's like, that's hard to say no. But if I'm saying no to this, I'm saying yes to the 15 other people that are on my. On my roster, so to speak. So that's what I'm working. I'm working on this. I have not done it yet. I am like, you can check back in with me. This is my. This is my, like, okay, God, what are we doing here?

I'm feeling bad now. I'm like, going back to last night. We were at Disneyland with my daughter. My daughter was like, I think I'm ready to go home now. And we're like, no, Julia, we must. We must do more. Don't you want to watch this show? This show is amazing.

It's gonna be so great.

And.

I love that. I. I have been there. I have been there at 3pm at Disneyland, and my son's like, let's go to the hotel. What? No. Yeah. Been there. It's hard.

But like her, she has a grown up voice right there.

Yeah. Just like, she totally does. Absolutely. Hey, I'm tapped out.

I don't have to push. I can. I can call it.

I'm good.

What if you and I keep Megan accountable, like good coaches? Circle back to her in a month or so and find out what kind of things she's broken in her practice. How does that sound?

I can't wait to hear what's broken.

I love that. I love that. That scares me. And I'm excited. Right? I'm on the starting line. I can feel it. That's good.

All right, well, hey, it's good seeing you, too, and we will connect soon. Have a good day.

Love hanging out with you guys. Thank you guys for having me.

Cheers.