Season 2 | Episode 51 | Where RT Therapists Get Stuck in the Therapeutic Process w/Hatty Lee

Foreign.

What's up, man?

Rhett, dude.

Happy New Year.

Look at this thing that came in the mail. To me, nothing says like an official podcast until you get swag. And some nice guy sent me swag in the mail.

You're welcome. I forgot to bring mine in today. I think we're gonna start making trucker hats soon. Soon. I know you know that'll be the all the rage.

Gotta cover the dome. Well, the hot lights coming in here.

This is season two and episode 51.

Oh, nice. We don't restart the count. We're still hanging in.

We're not.

Season two, episode one. We're, like, gonna go collective turn of.

The New year season two. And kind of still do a lot of we did in the first year. But we're going to try to lean in a lot more this year and helping therapists with some real practical, practical advice in the room, talking through the nuts and bolts of rt. We're also going to interview some people who are outside the RT world and talk about some things that we can learn from them. So it's going to be a cool year. So we'll see how many episodes we get out in 20. 26.

Do you have a goal?

50 again.

All right, game one.

Let's get to 100. By the time we get to RT Summit in Malibu in March of 2027, we should be over 100 episodes. That's the goal.

Whoa.

All right, I'll do it. If I can hang out with you, I'll do it.

All right. All right, enough of us. You need to introduce our guest because she's awesome.

Okay, so today I got. It's really funny. The person that we have is really studied with one of my best friends, Andrew, last my surfing cabadre at. At fuller back in 08. Right? Oh, I think.

Oh, nine.

So. 09. Slurs. Yeah.

So.

But we have Hattie Lee here today. Hattie is probably. I. I love her. She's got the good energy, the fire. She is brilliant. She has written, like, the coffee table books of all coffee table books. And not only that, she has a practice of a ton of therapists with three different offices all over the Los Angeles area, from Highland park to Pasadena to Koreatown. We got Hattie Lee here, guys. And when it comes to therapy, she doesn't mess around. She's. She's like, we're gonna go and we're gonna heal you. We're gonna get it right. So we got. I'm stoked to have her. She's got the fire. She. She's a little. She's.

She.

She may be short in stature, but her fire and her strength.

Thank you for Giant.

Hattie.

I'm so excited you're here today.

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. This is fun.

Well, we like to always start usually with, okay, you did go to Fuller, so I'm assuming that's how you got to rt. Is that where it all started for you?

Yes, I was. I started back in 2009, and that's when Terry and Sharon were there. I think they had started like a year or two before then. And so I got a chance to learn from them, train with them. And even with Sharon, we got to do Sharon and Terry, they were running the. They were called Marriage Strong Marriages Successful Ministries at the time, which is now the Relate Strong material. So I think they were working out some of the materials on us, so my husband and I got to participate in that. So we were RT'd out those years, and that was my first exposure to it and just absolutely loved it. And it deeply resonated with me and the way that I was organizing my own personal work. So. And I've been doing it since.

So you jumped in to everything, the RT model, the Relate Strong, all that. I. I'm always curious, was there one aspect of it that, like, just sucked you in, that you're like, this is why I love it, and, like, pulled you into it?

Yes. I will say, I think the concept of just self responsibility was really big, just because up until that point, I felt like so much of the therapeutic and even pop psychology world was about what I need you to do to make this all better for me or what? Yeah, there was so much like, dependence. Dependence on other people or outside situations that make things feel okay inside. And so I think when I was introduced, that concept of actually, like, feeling a sense of responsibility and agency and power over, you know, how I can experience and. Or, you know, sometimes even grieve what isn't or what is. Right. And that. That type of work, I think that was really transformative, and it really made me feel very empowered in the work instead of feeling helpless and sad because I'm disappointed, you know, which I felt like a lot of people were experiencing in their therapeutic work. It's just kind of like, too bad. So. Yeah, so I think that concept was really powerful. I do know that that concept is also a concept that a lot of people in therapy don't like too. But I think I felt very brought to it because of that. And I. I will say I Think it helped me to really create a lot of change in my life.

Yeah. I feel like if you're going to therapy and it feels good, it's probably something wrong going on. There's got to be some element where therapy's got to, like. Man, I really didn't want to talk about. Oh, man. Like, you know, there's. There's that element of if therapy doesn't make you uncomfortable a little bit, then you're probably not doing it right.

Yes, definitely.

You shouldn't be looking forward to going to your therapist.

At some. There should be at least.

There should be at least, you know, 20% of your sessions should. Should have a little moment of like, oh, I didn't like that at all, but I really needed it.

Yeah.

At least for me. I'm the idiot, though.

No. The therapist that I grew the most from, I usually just. I was hesitant to go into his office every week. I'm like, I do not want to be here because I don't know what he's going to have me do when I get into the room. That scared me.

I love that. I hope my clients feel that way with me, Man. What.

Did you always. When you started your. Your therapy, like, program, did you always envision yourself, like, leading a practice.

Or.

Is that something that evolved, like, over time for you? I'm assuming you wanted to be a therapist, but, you know, not everybody wants to run a practice and stuff. So I'm curious when that kind of started to emerge.

Right. No, I thought I actually started in Camille mental health. So I was in community mental health for about seven years, actually, and I thought I was just going to retire there. I was at an agency that I absolutely loved, and it was one of those rare agencies where. Where there was good work life balance, and I just loved working with the underserved. So, you know, just. I mean, I was just in it. And I think it was a community that I really resonated with because I grew up in communities like that as a child of immigrants. And so I had a huge heart for that community. And then I remember the clinic that I was at, it hired a consultant because they were, like, struggling with financial issues, and they hired the consultant that is a consultant for the largest mental health, I mean, community mental health clinic in la, which was notorious for being crazy. And then within three to six months, it basically turned into that agency. And I, um. So, you know, so suddenly just the work life balance was. It just changed. And I was needing to work, like, probably 50 hours again, you know, and put Myself in very dangerous situation. I also had my first child, you know, around that time and you know, so I was just having to wrestle with the reality of just an industry where if I wanted to do this work, I basically had to not be able to see my own kids. You know, there wasn't a lot of part time options. And then I had to put myself in situations that, where sometimes I would have clients threatening to kill me, you know, or having their first psychotic break or going into impatient, you know, like I was doing everything you could think of and I realized it just wasn't going to be sustainable. So I actually started thinking, thinking about private practice out of necessity. I was actually already doing RT work in community mental health clinics, like in creative ways using their evidence based approaches, you know, and so I know RT was very powerful even with, you know, the clients that I was working with in community mental health clinic. But, but yeah, so I really just started thinking about it out of necessity. Can you hear me?

All right? Oh, and looks, it's a little laggy, but I can hear you. Let's.

Yeah.

We'Ll just roll if you can hear us. Lance and I are good at just kind of rolling. Why? We have technical issues. So. Yeah, Hattie will get back on here. She's frozen on our screen. Oh, there you are, Hattie.

There we go.

Yeah, okay. Sorry.

It's all good. This is part of, part of the deal.

But yeah, so I was just thinking, I actually started thinking about it. Oh, sure.

No, as. So did you kind of have to hold back on RT for those seven years while you're in community mental health.

In some way? Sometimes I try to actually integrate it into my work whenever I could. I actually did a lot of groups using RT because there's a lot more flexibility in terms of the model you can use then even in my individual work, for a lot of my clients who were able to engage with the material or the model, I would integrate it whenever possible and it was really effective. I mean, I still remember a lot of my clients, they were saying, oh my gosh, I've never, I've never heard about, you know, it was like new. And I remember they were in the system for many years and been in therapy for many years. So I remember it was just life changing for them. So I was actively still using it.

Yeah, I just had this image of you kind of like having to hold back and then you get into private practice and now it's like fully unleashed.

There was an aspect of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of had to be creative, extra creative, you know, But I did make it work. But yeah, I probably. It wasn't fully unleashed until I started private practice.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, yeah, so it was out of necessity, you know, in my life stage, all of that. And then once I started, I was like, oh my gosh, why didn't I do this earlier? You know, I just get to do what I really believe I should be doing fully, you know, without having to be creative and, you know, documenting it correctly.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think, yeah. This is one of the big things, why we really need to get this RT to be evidence based. Because I think on the. It works so well. It's just. Yeah. So I'm excited for whenever we get. I've heard that murmurings of some. Some people that want to help us to get it to be an evidence based practice. So I'm really excited for the future because once we get RT to be evidence based, I feel like it's going to be pretty amazing, like where we can go with it.

Absolutely.

But until then, we'll hang out in our private practices and we'll do amazing work, longing for the days where we can offer it to the full bit of society.

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, for now we're getting feedback from our clients that it works. So that's good enough for me for now.

Yep. And it changed all of our lives on this call.

Exactly.

Just a little bit.

Yeah. And it's still changing my life. Hattie, one of the things we, you know, we're really interested in having you on is you obviously have multiple practices, you work with a lot of therapists, you're really passionate about rt. And one of the things that Lance and I are really interested in, especially in New Year, is a lot of us, apparently not Lance, but a lot of us get stuck in the room as RT therapists and we'd like to take some time and kind of dive into that and, and better understand where it is. You think what you're seeing RT therapists getting stuck. Because when therapists get stuck, they kind of ditch a model and they try to find something else, you know, and we just kind of cycle through model after model after model. And so would love to you just kind of lead a conversation on that. What is it you're seeing in the work that you do and that you've been doing for a long time as it relates to rt? Like, where are we getting stuck?

Yeah, that's such a great question. I think I've. I mean, I have a team of 14 now and I have supervised a majority of them from, like, their associateship into licensure, and most of them have stayed on. And so I still do consultations and all of that. So I've actually been able to see a lot of common themes in just the areas where clinicians get stuck or where they're struggling or what type of clients are just particularly a bit more difficult to work with or work through, especially with the RT model. So that, that is a bit top of mind for me right now as I'm trying to figure out how do we train better and offer, you know, better consultations around some of these topics. But I think just off the top of my head, I mean, I could probably think of a handful. Number one is, I think, talking too much. Like, I think a lot of the clinicians when we do the consultations, there's just too much talking about and less actual practice and doing and experiencing. I think that's a big one because sometimes, you know, clinicians will talk about how, oh, they're kind of telling them how to do something, or they're telling what they should do, or they're telling what they should say, but they're actually not spending enough time actually coaching and modeling how to do it. And so recently I was talking to my team about a session that was having with a couple and how we spent the entire session playing out. I mean, it was a really. I mean, I don't want to say it's silly, but it was so. I mean, it was something like, how do I change up the story? So it doesn't like it was something. So.

Couple from.

They're from the South.

Yeah, yeah, there are a couple from the South. Exactly.

They're from the South. And one was a trucker.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And then. Fill in the, Fill in the details.

Yeah, fill in the details. And it was something like, you know, they maybe go to, like a good parallel example would be like they didn't pick up the phone, you know, when they called or something. Okay. Let's just say, and I was talking to them how we spent the entire session basically replaying the scenario where one partner called and the other partner did not pick up the phone, you know, and we basically fleshed out step by step, like, what happened in your pain cycle. What did you want to do? So we kind of role played. I think we did it almost 10, 15 times. This really silly. Okay, ring, ring, ring, don't pick up. And we just played it out and fleshed it out. And I walked through each partner how that would have happened differently had we walked through the four steps, right? And I had this couple give me feedback. They're like, you know, we've actually been in couples therapy for 10 years before we started doing this work with you. And we have never actually fleshed out a conversation like this around a real scenario that we. We had gone through. Like, we never knew what it could have looked like or what it should have looked like and how we could have actually handled that differently other than we were told, like, you should try this. Right. But we never actually practice it, you know, and so when we were practicing it, I was like, no, not like that. You know, like, I would just stop them. Like, not like that. Oh, you're, you know, your tone, your facial expression, like, hey, you know, so I was giving really concrete directive feedback and they're like, oh, like, you know. Or I was like, no, you're going to change the order of how you just said that. You know, like, I, you know, I was just giving a lot of concrete feedback and directives about how this works. And I was really shocked that after 10 years of being in couples therapy somewhere that they said no one has ever walked with them, like, step by step how to do that differently.

Yeah.

And so they said that was really life changing. And I was like, wow. Like, we just literally talked about a phone call that you did not pick up. Like, that was the scenario or the context that we were using. I mean, obviously they had other, you know, more complex, deeper things happen. But I think that that simple scenario really highlighted what happens in their dynamic, and we were able to use that to really help them practice what it could have looked like to actually walk in their four steps. Right. So, yeah, so we were talking about, like, really getting into the nitty gritty of the situation and actually getting our clients to actually practice and giving them really concrete feedback about how to do the work work and how to. How to walk through the steps.

I. I think it's so important, it's so essential for us to role play with our clients, to, to let them relive re. Go through the situation and not once, not twice, not thrice, but multiple times. I love it. There's this. Terry did this. Do y' all remember when we were all together and Terry, like, had that video of the Old Spice commercial guy where they, you know, the. I. I wish I knew the guy's name, but he's like, old Spice. And, and he, he goes, no, like this Old Spice. And the guy has to repeat it multiple times. That's restoration therapy. Is we're. We're helping people to step into that. And it is very obnoxious and directive to people, but, damn, it really sets you free, man. Sorry.

Sometimes things seem so obvious, but I think when you're used to just reacting a certain way for so many years, you don't realize, like, the impact of your reactions, Right. Or your words or how you say something or your expression or, you know, just the look in your eye, whatever it is, just. Just. I realize a lot of people are just not aware of that. And to be able to actually reflect that back, mirror that and give feedback is really powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think the experiential piece is really big.

Yeah. Why do you think we get stuck in just talking about things too much instead of moving into the experience? I know that's probably different for each person, but I'm sure there's themes that emerge that you see Hattie, or that you see Lance, or ones that I can identify. Like, what do you. Why do you think, as therapists who are practicing rt, we might find ourselves talking too much instead of experimenting?

I mean, it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability to get into the experimenting. Because. Because it's less predictable, right? Because when you tell somebody, oh, you should try this, right? It kind of, you know, just try it. Right? But when you say, let's try it in the room right now, we kind of. We. I think it's. It. It takes some level of courage and risk, right? Because you don't know what's going to happen.

And.

And I think it takes. And then there's a lot of pushback, right? I mean, it's normal. You know, I tell my team I constantly get pushback from my client. They're like, oh, I don't want to do that. Right? Or they're like, oh, that. You know, that's awkward. Or, you know, sometimes you feel awkward, like you're just like, you know, I am awkward. And I think I actually had a very extensive conversation about this with my team, you know, in recent months, about there's a big struggle in being directive, Right. I think a lot of people, there's. There's a lot of association with being directive, where it feels like maybe it might feel a little too demanding, or it might feel. Some people feel like it's a little rude, or it could feel a little, like, inconsiderate, or it could feel too abrasive. You know, like they just have associations with this concept or idea of being a directive therapist, or they feel like, oh, I. I feel like I need to kind of make it land or, you know, sugarcoat it or kind of talk about it in this, like, roundabout way so that it's easier to digest. Right. But what's interesting is, I mean, we've had so much, so many feedback from clients where. But sometimes we'll, you know, we'll have. We'll share clients and things like that. So we've actually gotten feedback. And they'll often say, you know, those sessions where the therapist just said the hard thing? They didn't like it, but they say those were the best sessions. And I think we're always surprised that. Oh, man. Like, it was kind of honest and direct, you know, but still loving and gentle. Right. We're not being abrasive or mean, but they will say, like, gosh, I didn't like hearing that, but I know it was what I needed to hear, and that actually shifted things for me. Right. But usually their reaction is not good. And so the therapist will take that as, oh, I should never do that again. You know, like, the client didn't like that, so I shouldn't do it again. Right. So I. I see a lot of clinicians actually pull back, so they might actually try doing something a little bit directive or, you know, giving some really concrete feeling feedback that's hard to give. And then the client kind of is offended or, you know, they're like, you know, they. They kind of show some sort of resistance or, you know, they might challenge you or whatever it is. And so the therapist might think, okay, I'm not going to do that again. Right. But I don't think, you know, I think that's not the right response when that happens because I will say, for instance, I was working with a partner of a couple once, and in their, you know, we were walking through their four steps, and maybe one of their pain cycle was that, oh, I have. It's all on me. Like, I always have to, like, you know, I have to figure that, you know, that was part of their pain cycle. Right. Some version of that.

Yeah.

And so we were working through their. Their truth, and the truth was like, you know, it was like another version of their pain cycle. So, for instance, it was something.

Yeah.

That's so classic.

You know what I mean? Like, it was something like, I'm capable of handling that. Let's just say. Okay, but. But it was some other version of their pain cycle because they had lived so many years of being so hyper independent. Right. And so I actually, you know, the truth was not a bad truth. Right. Of course, you're capable of handling a situation you're capable of figuring out. Yeah, those are all wonderful, grounded truth. But I felt I could feel the nuance of it being just another version of their pain cycle. And so I had to challenge them, like, hey, like, I, I, you know, like, I, you know, this is true. This is true. But in this context, I think there's another truth you need to lean into, you know, and. And you really. We had to, like. I had to really confront this partner about it because they were like, no, no, this. This is, you know, like, they were so committed to it, and it was part of what was maintaining their disconnection in the partnership because their pain was. It's all on me. And their truth was, I'm capable, and this is all on me to figure this out again. Right. And so, yeah, we. We had to, like, it was like a struggle, and I had to come back from, like, hey, you know, like, you know, there is a truth around. Like, you know, you're able to stay connected. There is an us ness here, you know, so we were kind of fleshing out truths that would land, and we experienced breakthrough in that session, you know, and had I not if I just kind of like, okay, okay, yeah, you. Okay, fine. You know, if I gave in and I said, okay, yeah, it is. You can do this by yourself, you know, I don't know if we would have had the kind of session that we did have in that, you know, couple session. And so sometimes it's like, we really do need to be grounded in what we're sensing in the room, too, and just understanding the nuance of certain things. Right? Because sometimes a client might say something that sounds right, especially with. In our era of pop psychology, I mean, there's so much there. Therapy, right? Therapy babble all over the Internet, right? And clients are bringing it in and they're just throwing them out, like, you know, just anytime they can. And you're like, wait a second, like this. That doesn't sound right in this context, you know, like, that it is a good universal truth, possibly, but maybe not in this context. You're kind of using that in a very destructive way, you know, and so, yeah, so just really trusting our therapeutic gut and being able to call some of these things out and challenge some of the. The norms that have been accepted in our, you know, society, too, around what's a healthy relationship and what's not, you know.

So it's kind of like too much talking about stuff and not being directive enough are kind of like, in tandem. There Correct?

Yes.

So, yeah, you, I think you heard what I said. It's like the double edged sword there. It's like we're not, we're talking too much about the issue and not being directive enough and experimenting in the room and that's one of the critical areas you see. I know Lance sees that. I know I struggle with that myself. Terry always says don't, don't talk about it. Like, show me, you know, like, don't.

Talk about doing therapy. Do therapy.

Yeah. And I know that's a, for 20, 26, that's a growth area for me, so I'm taking note of it for myself over here.

Yeah, I think I was thinking this too as you're talking. I was thinking like one thing there that are therapeutic, which I think is really important, but almost overemphasizes this idea around autonomy for our clients. And our clients have to figure it out. Our clients have to get their, like it's almost like this weird game of like they're blind and, and we can see exactly what's going on, but we're unwilling to because we're like, no, it's really important that they figure it out themselves. They need to figure it out themselves. So there, there tends to be this like lack of ability to help someone. Even though you can see exactly what's going on in the room, you're just unwilling to. Out of the. Because of the pillar of autonomy is, is getting in the way. So we, so I think that's one of the other things that prevents us from being directive with our clients because we're like, oh no, it's really important they come to it themselves or they don't want to do that. So we have to be respectful.

Right?

Right. Yeah. I was thinking about how a lot of the therapists will say, like a client comes in and they're like wanting to really flesh out the details of what happened. Right. And you know, especially if you've had some sessions with them, you already know what's happening in their pain cycle. Right. And so, you know, one of the common feedback I give them is like, oh, don't let them go on. Like if they're going to go on, let them actually show you so you can actually do an intervention. You know, so if they're just saying, oh, this is what happened, right. And then they want to go into all that, just be like, wait, wait, hold on. Okay. Can you actually, you know, so I, you know, one of the feedback I might have, I've given some clinicians, it's like oh. Instead of letting them just talk about it, I'd be like, hey, can you, like, put me in that situation with you? Okay, tell, you know, and then you kind of help them organize what's happening within the pain cycle as they're talking about the situation. And then you can actually do an intervention and help them have a new experience around it. Because sometimes a client comes in talking about scenario, and they spend 20 minutes, you know, like, easily, like 20 minutes getting into the details, this happened, context, like, you know, whatever it is. And then you have, like, I don't know, maybe you might only have, like, 10, 15. It's just not enough time to really have a powerful intervention so that the client can leave with something. Right. And so I always say, if they want to talk about something, you could still let them. But leave. Let them do it in a contained way where you can still walk with them and walk them through their four steps, you know, as they're telling you about it in real time, you know, and so, yeah, so always, like, figuring out creative ways. How do we make this experiential, you know? Yeah. I think that that is the challenge or the work.

That's such a great move, like, particularly when you have a client that comes in the room that is just, like, loves to blab to. Just almost shift the dynamic of, like, show me what that was like, okay. And what was going on there. Okay. All right, continue. Like, so I think that's such a. A brilliant move, particularly for newer therapists, like, where you kind of get overwhelmed by these people that can talk a million miles a minute, million words a minute. I don't know what the right phraseology is there, but. But to be able to say, oh, can you show me that? That, like, so if you're a newer therapist or even a therapist who's getting overwhelmed by clients to say, okay, show me what happened. Show me. Show me that. That way you're slowing them down and you're giving them. You're getting them more aware of what's going on. I have, like, little characters I have in my room. So I will. I'll oftentimes, like, grab the character, be like, okay, show me exactly. I like these little gestalti guys. I'll. I'll pose in different positions.

Love it.

I think that's good. I like it.

I think. I think therapists. I'm speaking for myself. You know, therapy is not cheap. And people come in and you feel like, well, if they're paying, you want them to be able to have the space to Talk sometimes. Right. And not cut them off. But then the question is, in the day, it's like, are we helping them? You know, is that actually moving them? And most often the case it's not. So I. I love that. I was writing that down. I'm gonna do a better job this year of just having people who are talking and sharing details to show me the details.

Yes.

Show me the money.

Show me the money.

I was thinking, you know, that's. That. That's experiment. That's in the. In the moment expression. Where else do you see Hattie, people getting stuck?

Gosh. I think the experiential, the direct. Those are some big topics. Trying to think.

So when we first started off, you were saying, like, there's this element around the. Like just knowing the model elements on how to flow the model. And then you talked about there's certain clients that you deal with that are kind of a special type. And then you also talked around how we as therapists are. Get caught up in our own stuff. I think that's where kind of like how we talked. Started talking about. I don't know which one of those you'd like to jump on.

Oh, gosh. Oh, yeah. Those are all big topics. Yeah. I mean, I think a big common one is the countertransference piece. Right. A lot of the therapists, and especially for me, too, when I find myself stuck with a client, I know oftentimes it's not just, I don't know what to do. It's that in the. In the past, it's been that, oh, I haven't done that for myself. My own personal work, you know, and so sometimes it's kind of. It's kind of funny because sometimes we'll have a therapist. I mean, it happens with everybody. But I'm just thinking of one in particular where, you know, the therapist brought in probably, like, I don't know, 10 different clients in the last. Whatever year, but they're. They're all the same clients. You know, we're like, this is interesting. Like, why do we keep bringing in the same client here? And what came out was like, that that is the area that they are personally stuck in.

Didn't you already talk about this client?

Oh, yeah, yeah. We're like, is this same client we talked about? No, it's a new client. And so, you know, I think that's. Those are really important things to notice. Right. That if you find yourself getting stuck with a similar client, that's information. And, you know, sometimes, you know, sometimes it might be that we Just don't know how to work with that particular client. Or that client might just be trying to triggering us or activating something in us or reminding us of somebody that, you know, we're closely associated with. So there's some blind spots there. Or sometimes they're, they are us. Right. Like, sometimes we, we relate with them and we struggle with the same thing. And because we don't know how, we still haven't figured out how to navigate it in our personal life. It's very limiting in terms of how much we can support this client, you know, and so I do think it's really helpful to be in consultations regularly.

Yeah.

With people who are willing to be honest with you instead of like, you know, I, and I say this to our group, but I remember when I was being supervised, like, especially in coming mental health, I had, I had a mix, you know, I had some who were really hard on me. And I will say I hated those supervision. But I was like, all right, I just learned a lot. But then I had some that were like, you are so amazing. You're great. Like, everything you do is just right. And I was like, dang that, like that. That's not what the kind of consultation supervision that I want to provide, you know, there should be some of that. But I would love if during consultation, people call me on, they're like, look like that is you, you know, like that is your work. There is definitely some counter transfers going on there. You need to work through that, you know, or, you know, like, know what I mean? Like just some challenging. And so I always, I always think like, if you're in some kind of consultation group or in supervision, like, ask that of your colleagues or ask that from your supervisor to please challenge me. Make me see something that I don't see. Because what I'm seeing is not enough to help me move forward in my work with this client. So help me see something new. But yeah, so, you know, so I think just really being encouraged to be able to notice our blind spots is really important. And it doesn't. And sometimes I think what happens is some clinicians, they keep getting these clients, they're like, I get stuck, so I'm not going to see them. But I feel like that's a disservice to clients and to ourselves. You know, I always tell my team, you know, even if, like, oh, I have a saying at our practice where, you know, there are certain clients that are just particularly difficult to work with. Right. And you might think, oh, I don't want to Work with that client. Right? And I say that if you don't know how to work with a client like that, you're going to really struggle supporting clients that you really enjoy working with who are going to be dealing with people like that in their life, you know, like, you're going to. It's going to cause you to get stuck with them at some point, you know? And so I always say, like, if there's someone who's difficult like that, it's difficult for you, right, Just because of your own history, your background, whatever it is, right? Like, do your very best to learn how to work with these people who are very different from you, you know, because you're going to be that much more of a better therapist when you support your ideal clients, navigating relationships with people like that, you know? So, yes, I always say, like, there's no way out of this. Okay. Like, you need to figure out how to work with a lot of different types of clients to be. Be the best clinician can be.

Yeah, I. I think that's wise.

I.

You know, there's. I think sometimes you find these, like, really neat things that come out in the midst of it as you're. When you go into that zone of, like, you know what? I really want to work on this type of client and recognize what's going on inside of me. There's huge growth potential for yourself, but you're also leaning into this client in a different way. So I, I think that's very, like, there's. There's a lot of unlocking that can happen when. When you do the. Do that extra work. So I appreciate that. And, like, you know, don't just give up. Don't give up. Don't you ever give up?

Yeah. Yeah.

That's my word for the year. Don't give up.

I will say I think this is feeling too much. Like.

I feel like. I feel like I have a lot of growing to do in 2026. I'm like, yeah, maybe not talk about stuff as much. Be more directive. Don't just say it. Show me. Did you guys plan this out ahead of time?

Your clients all wrote us in the. In the meantime, and they're like, I. I actually think we're talking to me right now.

I was thinking about. What was I thinking about? I just lost it. What was I thinking about?

Think about how much fun you're having talking to Lance and I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is. Is this the new year or is this the baby funk?

What is this?

It could be a combination of the state. It probably is a baby brain. I just lost it.

Yeah.

Hey, I had a question. I mean, we're on the. We're on the zone of, like, why our client? Like, why we get stuck in therapy. Like, moments that we get stuck in and, you know, you hit counter transference really well, and then recognizing how we need to do our own work and. And the, like, you know, connection. I'm thinking one of the other things you mentioned was, you know, those. Just recognizing those special types of clients that we deal with. That might be harder, so. Might be. Do you remember that conversation, Rhett?

Yeah, Well, I think I was. As we were talking, I think we're waiting for Hattie to hop back on. She's frozen. We've had quite the new year here, Ro. I mean, see, I called you Ro. Oh, my gosh. Just. And there she goes. Do you think this episode is gonna see the light of day? Are we gonna have to scratch it?

I feel like it's so good.

Yeah. We are a mess today. I called you Ro. Hattie's bouncing in and out. We're just.

I mean, if you call me Ro, that's fine with me. He's a cool guy.

Well, I think what you're referring to is. And maybe I had it wrong, but one of the things Hattie was talking about was different personality types. I was taking it, as therapists that as therapists, we are different personality types at times. And depending what type of personality we are, we might struggle more in the room practicing our T. Right. So, for example, if it calls for us to be more directive and let's say we're more introverted type personality trait or things like that, that might be a struggle for us.

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Like, there's. There's elements where we can fall into, like, our. Our personalities or, like, I think for me, like, I'm really in that. You know, when you look at the Myers Briggs assessment, yeah, I tend to be really intuitive, which means that I kind of can see things quickly, but I don't understand the. The nitty gritty of elements a lot of times. So sometimes it can be hard. Hard to communicate around that element. So if you have a client that really leans into that more, it's. It's recognizing yourself in the. In the midst of what you're dealing with with your client. So I think that's something that she wanted to talk about as well.

And, you know, she. She threw out, I think, like, a example of, like, an ISTJ or something like that. Let's say yeah. On the Myers Briggs and someone maybe who's more like logical brain, kind of introverted, intuitive, where, you know, and I guess even on like the Enneagram model, if people are into like that personality types there, that might be like five potentially. And it. You work with clients who I think sometimes in the room don't like the experiential stuff and want the very rational, logical. They prefer like the conversational piece.

And so explain it to me.

Yeah. And so I can get caught up in that too. And I'm in my own head going, well, do I. Do I lean into that and explain away, or do I try to make myself a little more uncomfortable and vulnerable, therefore also encouraging them to be uncomfortable and is there a breakthrough there? Yeah, makes sense.

No, it does, it does. I think it's this idea around, you know, if we recognize a personality that's in front of us, you know, you know, we had to ask ourselves, is this personality driven by this person's pain cycle?

Right.

Has this just been like, really, like, hashed out because of their deep pain that they're in, or is this like an actual, like, element of like, this person is a very, like, their learning ability is here. So I had to meet them where their learning ability is. So, you know, I'll throw them a bone every now and then. I'll be like, okay, here's. I have like a brain in my office, so I'll show them the brain and I'll talk. Yeah, real quick. This is what we're talking about. So now let's do it, you know. Yeah.

Well. And something again where Hattie has not hopped back on. It's just one of those days. But one of the things I wanted to ask her too, because one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is potentially even the cultural differences, you know.

Oh, yeah.

She.

She works a lot of Asian American clients.

Yeah.

And we've talked in, like, private conversations about different cultural differences and how it shows up in the therapy room. And I was thinking about recently working with somebody who comes from a background that culturally and also just like family wise is very. We don't. You don't feel emotion, you don't express emotion. We don't talk about our feelings. We don't like. So even to get them to identify the pain cycle is. Is foreign. And. And I've had to, like, push, you know, gently to say, like, this is where I think that's me being directive. This is where I think the path is for you. And they're just Having a really hard time, you know.

Yeah.

So. All right, here comes Hattie. We'll see if she. If this works. Hey, she's back.

I'm back.

No, you're good. We are. We're just discussing. This is just par for the course, the beginning of the year, which is start off all kind of crazy. So it is what it is.

And, and we, we. We really vamped.

Well.

And actually Rhett set us up for the question he wanted to. Yeah. To throw in. I think we can close with that question.

Yeah.

I have a question for you. And we're definitely going to have you back on again. And we'll. We will figure out why we're having so many technical issues today. But you know what? Episode 51 in, we're still learning. Right.

Hey, man, let's try to go somewhere.

Okay. What if you have a client, like, cultural background and differences that they struggle with, this concept of even. We shouldn't talk about feelings. Like, we don't express that. We're not open about that. That's not a part of who I am or our culture. But you're an RT therapist, you know, and I was thinking, you know, your own work with the Asian American population, you know, some of the. Some of my work with a different, you know, a different variety of clients from different cultures and backgrounds. I find myself sometimes going, do I just be. Am I okay with that? Or do I need just tell them and be. And be like direct and say, hey, I think the path to healing is to lean into this RT stuff and to be able to express stuff, even if it's against your cultural norms.

Right, right.

That's a long question there.

Yeah, no, that's great. We actually, yeah. Actually this was the thing that I was gonna talk about earlier. I was like, oh, I lost it.

Right.

Is our clients like this, where they're like, why are we talking about the past?

You know, or, or, you know, how.

Does that even, you know, why does that even matter in what's happening in this current situation? This has nothing to do with what happened in my past. Right. You. Sometimes you'll get clients who are just like not on board, you know. And my thing with clients like this, because I have tried it all, like where it's like, you know, we try to do some education, you know, neuroscience, like just, you know, just all of that stuff.

Right.

And I'm like, you know, it's. Sometimes it could also be part of the client. Clients pain cycle to not like, you know, like to be distrusting.

Right.

Of someone in A position of authority or someone, you know what I mean? Just, that's just part of it. So sometimes it's not even worth, like, I, I, I sometimes have to assess, like, is this something I want to take issue with? Or could we still get into the work and actually like help this client figure out how to do this differently?

Right.

So they often, so sometimes I might not get into the deep, you know, I think as therapists, especially in this profession, there's a lot of us who just love those deep, you know, conversations and processing and insight to the childhood. Oh my gosh, I didn't know that was connected to the, you know, we're.

Just like eating it all up, right?

But sometimes we have a client who's.

Just like, this is a waste of my time, you know, and we do get that.

And I think we do get that. Especially even in the Asian and Asian American community, especially when we talk about just experiences in the home and family. We have a lot of Asian clients who are like, my parents are not bad. You know, they just more like, we never said that your parents are bad, you know, but they just automatically get very protective and even defensive of just some of the sometimes what are traumatic experiences that they've had in their family and with their parents and interactions, you know, they just get quick to defending, wanting to defend them or justify or rationalize or, you know, and you just see all their patterns show up in that. And so sometimes it's, you know, we do just reassure. Oh yeah, we're not saying that your parents are bad or, you know, whatever it is. We're just trying to give context to the situation that your family grew up in, you know, and that everyone was doing the best they could in that situation. And you know, unfortunately it had some consequences, you know, impact us in different ways. Right. So we might do something just very neutral and basic like that, but not get into a fight with them about it. And so sometimes we just kind of need to get into the present action work. And it could feel a little bit like solution focused work, you know, that I think can leave a therapist feeling a little uncomfortable. But I found that clients like that are very responsive. As soon as we're like, you know, what, can we try this differently? Hey, can we try this on? Hey, can we? What if we say this and you know, like just very clear, concrete feedback and these kind of clients have been very responsive to that, where they're like, oh, that, that worked, you know, like, or, you know, and then they actually start getting a buy in to maybe Some of the more insight and all of that later, actually. So sometimes the order in which it happens, for certain clients, it could be different. Especially clients like this, where you might need to actually build trust with them first and give them something concrete, tangible, something that works. And then they're a lot more open to what you might have to say. And so. So yeah, sometimes I've seen some of that dynamic where some of it has to do with some distrust with like just a professional even, you know, or someone.

Yeah.

With some kind of authority, you know, all of that. But yeah, I don't, I don't even. I don't feel like we need to get into it with them. But they're just there, they, they're wanting answers, they're wanting something practical, they're wanting help, you know, and sometimes you kind of need to give that earlier because sometimes in the model we're like, there's an order.

Right.

We want to do things in a certain order. And so I love the concept. You know, we started doing off ramps. You know, I think intuitively I was doing things like that. But I love that we've kind of integrated that into the model more where we do off ramps, we kind of, you know what, we might have not covered it yet, but let's just, let's just get into the general area. Right. So I do a lot of off with clients like that. We're like, you know what, we're not going to make that into an issue. Let's do an off ramp here. Let's help you, like try something different and kind of get closer to where I know your forceps going to be, you know, and then they actually develop more trust with us in that process and we could do deeper work with them eventually.

I don't know.

Does that answer the question?

It's good.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you live in the land of off ramps.

Yeah, exactly.

I wonder how many off ramps per mile are in, in Los Angeles. Yeah, like off ramp city. Just gotta take like, all right, traffic, let's get them off.

Yeah.

You know what the problem is in Los Angeles? I was telling my kids this our day. If you miss an off ramp in rush hour, that's another 30, 40 minute detour. It's done. It's like, it's over. There's all kinds of chaos.

Your data is real.

But not today. Today was a good day.

We're gonna end because you actually are gonna go do an intensive.

Yeah. God bless the clients.

Let me just as a tease for another time, we have you on the epic Podcast, can you give us in like a sentence or two why you love doing intensives?

Oh, my gosh, I might only do intensives at some point. That's how much I love it. But it's because, okay, I feel like it's so much more efficient. You spend a lot less time getting into all the details of every single scenario that happens every week. And it gives you enough time to really get through the model and help them finish, like a topic.

Right?

Because, you know, there's a lot of sessions where the sessions are just not long enough, where, you know, we kind of get through most of it, but.

We'Re like, ah, if I had an.

Extra 10 minutes, we would have, you know, we would have practiced that one more time, you know, and really sealed it. But I feel like with an intensive, it really gives you the room to create an intensive experience where it could really create the change in your brain and it helps your body create that memory as well and practice. And I feel like at the end of each intensive I have couples always saying, like, oh my gosh, like, I get it. And, you know, it's not that quick when we're doing these weekly sessions, you know, because so much happens between one week to another and by the next session, clients are like, oh, another thing. And I'm like, oh, we didn't finish that other one.

Like, I want to go back to, you know, so you're kind of having.

To start over with a new topic. And so I just, I just, it's just so powerful and effective. And so I've been actually offering a lot more and a lot of. Especially I've been doing mostly with couples. They've been really interested because they're transitioning out of a lot of long term couples therapy work that they feel like hasn't been helpful. And so when they get into the intensity, they think, oh my gosh, I wish I had done something like this earlier, you know, So I think that's.

Yeah, it's good.

It's so good.

When I was writing my dissertation, I had this. I read this one line that talked about doing intensive or like how therapy is hour long therapy. And it's the, the guy writes, he's like, it's kind of like we are doing really crazy surgery. And then we're like, oh, you got them all wide open on the, on the table. I'm like, well, sorry, I just got to send you out of here. I have to get to my next emergency coming in the room and good luck with that. And, and I think that that was really convincing for me when I was writing my dissertation of like, we have to, we, there's, there's got to be a better way for us to do therapy. To really lean into helping people get the full healing they need and not give in to the hour.

Totally. I think, anyways, people, when they talk about their stories, they usually have these intensive experience. A lot of times, you know, they'll have like an experience experience that was traumatic or something that really started paving that brain pathway of their pain cycle. So I have this idea that if you've experienced some kind of traumatic thing or intensive thing, you kind of need that level of intensity in like. Yeah, that your peace cycle to be able to counter that intensity. And I feel like sometimes it's hard to do in a shorter, you know, one hour session, whereas you could really emphasize it in a long couple hour session.

Come on, Hattie. I can't wait for our next episode.

Yeah, we gotta let you go because of emergencies. You gotta go ahead into your intensive right now.

Get your scrubs on.

Yeah, all right, Hattie. All right. Okay, Good conversation. Bye.

Bye. Sat.