Season 2 | Episode 52 | Special Guest, Dr. Tamara Powell, Assistant Professor of Teaching Practice at University of Colorado at Denver

Lance, what's going on today?

Rhett, how you doing, my man?

Hey, got your mag?

Oh, yeah, is here.

I might have to bug you to send me one.

Rhett, we'll have to send them to our guests.

And I'm excited because eventually Vuori is.

Going to hear us trying to get a deal with Vori.

Yes, yes. So good.

Yeah, so we heard. Vuori also would like to have, you know, one of these. So we'll send them one. You know, they're our friends. They call us every now and then. We wear their stuff for them.

It's gonna be great.

Lance, welcome to episode 52.

52.

Yeah. And I'm excited. We are gonna venture a little bit outside the RT world today. It's part. It's. What do you call it? Adjacent. Rt.

Yeah.

RT adjacent. Yes.

RT adjacent. Thank you.

We're consulting the experts.

That's right. Consulting the experts. I like that. I'm going to do my best to introduce our guests because it's kind of a. It's kind of a long history and scattered emails over the years. So our guest, which I can call Dr. Dr. Tamara Powell, is assistant teaching professor in communications at UC Boulder. Or actually UC Boulder, Denver campus.

Denver. Yes, Colorado. Denver.

Denver. I'll let her say more, but essentially she was around Bel Air Perez back in the day when I was the college pastor, and she was in and around the college ministry at the time, and she was a student at ucla. And then over the years, in fact, I was just looking the other day, we have some correspondence, like 2012, 2013, and then again in 2016 and 17 and 18, just talking about different things that she was listening to or that she was reading about. We would share some information her and her husband were talking about. My wife and I maybe come out doing some marriage work there at one point, intensives. We talked about the hideaway stuff, and then she's asking questions about rt, and then I find out she's using RT in her work as a communications professor. So that is my long intro to kind of lead everybody into this conversation. So, Tamara, welcome to the podcast.

Great. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. Rhett and I have a long history, and it's been great to keep in touch over the years. And Rhett really just been a really influential person in my life, both in my faith journey, but also in my intellectual journey by, you know, sort of introducing me to the church and also introducing me to rt. So I'm super grateful to you. Thank you.

Well, I appreciate That I was telling you earlier, I think I was 26 when I came to Bel Air and 27 when I took over. And so you were a college student. Probably 18, 19, 20. And, you know, now I'm turning 51 this month, and it's cool. There's also.

Happy birthday.

Thank you. Almost. There's a lot of, like, your friends that are my friends today. You know, that I have families and kids and. Yeah. I'm just thankful for God's grace all these years that even when I didn't know what I was doing back then, that college ministry was really powerful in my own life. And Bel Air is where I met my wife and have some of my best friends today. So that was. That was a significant season for me. So, anyways, I won't go down memory lane too much.

No, I love it. And it was a very significant season for me as well. You know, I was, I think, the second or third year at ucla, and I played volleyball in college. And so I was friends with, like, J.D. groves and some of those people, and they were like, hey, come. Come to, you know, this college ministry. You know, I didn't have, like, a concept for what it was. I was like, oh, I don't know. And I think the first thing I came to was a harbor cruise.

That's a good way to start off.

You know, I think that. Actually, I think the first thing it was was there was kind of like a talent show, and somebody asked me to play on the piano, like, accompany them for the talent show. So I, like, showed up, and I was like, wow, okay, these people don't suck. Like, this is great. This feels safe enough to come back to. So I would come and I would just kind of sit in the back pews kind of by myself. Was, you know, I. I had heard the gospel. I was really curious about it. There was something so compelling, but also deep skepticism. Just, you know, I had to come in and spend some time just sniffing around, kind of, you know, like, is this. Is this okay? You know, is this. Are these people out to harm me? You know, what's going on here? And, yeah, you just created such a safe and welcoming and just such hospitality to people like me who were skeptics at the time. You know, there was just space for us to come and be there. So I was really grateful. And that was. That sort of ignited my journey of following Jesus. I got baptized not long after graduating from ucla. I ended up moving down to San Diego for grad school at UC San Diego. It's where I got my PhD in communication and got baptized during those years and met my husband and just so many. Just an outpouring of good community and all those things from just that. I don't know, just the. The taking the risk to come and sit in those back pews and. And try it, you know, try community. Yeah. Super grateful.

That's interesting. I. I kind of look through the lens now of love and trust, you know, and identity and safety a lot. And you just had me think about that community of college students that invited you out and like, that we met on Wednesday nights in the church. And I think back, like, there was just a lot of, like, loving and safe people.

Yep.

That made it a great just environment for people to grow and be changed, you know.

It really did. Yeah. Yeah. And I. I won't drop all the names, but you kind of know who I ran with and that crew. Just. There were people in all these different places in their faith journey, people that are following Jesus their whole life, you know, and really growing up in the church. And then were people that were, like, kicking the tires like me. And there were people that were, I don't know, maybe doing crystals or like, like, you know, universalism or something, too, but they were, like, also there. And, you know, like, it was. There was space for everything. Everyone could belong. Yeah. So thank you, guys.

Kept me on my toes. For sure.

Yeah.

Hey, actually, I'm curious. Where did you grow up?

I grew up in San Diego.

Did. Okay.

Yeah. So in. In Poway.

Oh, nice. Yeah.

Because my wife is a graduated graduate of Poway High School.

Yeah. Around the same time as my brother. So we'll have to. I'll have to see. Yeah. It is a small world.

Such a small world.

I know. Wild.

Our first introduction to one another, too. So.

I know. And then we're finding we have all these paths. Yeah.

The name game. You don't want to do the name game, Lance, right now.

Yeah, well. Well, I'll be like, oh, do you know? Do you know?

Right. Exactly.

Like, I can just imagine listening to the podcast be like, I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't want to do too much to that.

Yeah.

Tell us a little bit more, because.

I was looking through, you know, your course syllabus and your. Some of the bios online.

Yeah.

What you all are reading and setting. And I thought it was just a really intriguing communications class, that one that people don't often think about when they think about communications. In my mind, what they think about. And so describe a little more if you can. What it is that you teach there and kind of what you. I don't know what as a, as, as a professor, like what your hopes and goals are in this course that you teach.

Yeah, yeah. So my kind of specialization within communication is in organizational and health communication and also like qualit methods. So I kind of teach courses that fall under those areas. And communication is a really broad field. You know, it really integrates a lot of other disciplines. And so you can have everything from like journalism to production to media studies to critical media studies to, you know, kind of all over the place. And health communication kind of takes a little something from all of those. It's kind of a cross section of all of communication, whereas most of the other areas of communication kind of dive down in their, in their lane, if that makes sense. So I do get an opportunity to teach a lot of different sort of stuff across communication. But we wanted to develop a course that was kind of not exactly an interpersonal communication course that could be targeted towards students that were preparing to go into helping professions. So, and then we wanted to put it in our health communication kind of pathway. So I was like, let's, let's develop a course on communication and healing for, you know, our pre nursing, pre medical, you know, maybe therap, you know, future therapists or people that, you know. For me, I was interested in people that might want to go and be clergy in some denomination someday, which we don't have a ton of. But there, you know, there are some students that are interested in theological study as well, and I try to find them too, you know, try to connect with them and. Yeah, so we wanted to develop a course we originally were talking about as kind of like interpersonal, kind of. Could it be like a patient provider kind of community therapeutic communication course? And I was like, I feel like it needs to be broader just based on kind of our student population than just a therapeutic communication course, which is great and usually offered at more of like the graduate level. We developed this first at the graduate level, but a nursing school or a medical school, they're going to offer often some course in therapeutic communication which is kind of focused on that patient provider encounter. Um, and I was like, I wanted to kind of cut across helping profession. So that's kind of, so that we could kind of also draw on. You know, you have to think strategic. Sometimes things come together based on the strategy too. Not just like intellectual, sort of like, this would be cool. Um, so that was like kind of what our department needed at the time as well, um, but I was like, it'd be so great to kind of look at healing and how communication facilitates healing kind of through all these different levels, kind of intrapersonally, interpersonally, you know, organizationally across systems and like to be able to kind of zoom in and out and how communication facilitates that. And I just see, you know, my kind of lens on communication that kind of integrates the gospel is that, you know, the. The gospel is this great message of reconnection with God. And communication is really kind of the connection of minds or of groups or, you know, it. It means to make common. Right. The kind of like Latin root of communication is to make common. And I kind of see communication as. As whatever it is that facilitates that reconnection. And so I think. I think of Jesus in many ways as sort of like communication from God. He's Emmanuel, you know, he's with us. So that's. That's kind of like my. My interest and heart around it. And so, yeah, with the course, I wanted to be able to cut across those layers. Now, we are not a faith based organization, so I need to. I always approach my courses as, like, just spacious for anyone of any particular faith or perspective or whatever. So I do offer sometimes, you know, an article or two that might integrate Christian theology. But I try to also allow space for other theologies and include authors that come from other theologies and including. We might get to talk about how we. I use Friedman, who is, you know, of. Of sort of Jewish faith, as an author. So. Yeah, that was a little bit longer. Maybe I took it some other directions. But I answered your question.

Yeah, I have so many questions, but plants. Go ahead.

Well, I was curious around, like, I have so many. I have a lot of questions, too. What do we want to do, Rhett?

Well, I'm like, thinking. I don't think they taught us how to communicate in my MFT program. It's just like, assume you're gonna pick it up or something.

Yeah.

You don't remember the class on communication with Cameron Lee where you had, like, active listening? It was. It was. It was like this Pragmatics of Communication book where A and B and then you have context and all this other stuff.

No, I do not.

That class. That class. So boring.

I think you're describing, like, a transmission model of communication. Right. So you've got like a sender who's got a message. They're gonna send a channel to a receiver. There might be noise. It's gonna interfere. Yeah. And that's like kind of the Classic model of communication that most people know or encounter. And, you know, my hope with this course, but also just for anyone who's going into the helping professions, would be that they also encounter what I would describe as kind of a cultural model of communication, which is that, sure, we can have like messages, but there's this whole milieu really, you know, around communication. And it's not just that communication is the creation of like a message, but it's also the creation of a culture and things communicate. You know, built environment communicates what we do with our bodies, community. There's. There's so many pieces that we can unpack. Um, so transmission model is really good for when you. Yeah. When you have a specific message, you want to be understood. Cultural models of communication are. Are good for when you're wrestling with things where you're like, I'm saying this and this is happening, or like, I'm saying this and people are getting. Why is that? You know, and sometimes we have to have different language for that than the transmission model.

Yeah, I would say this is a 16 week course with introduction, conclusion. And I was really intrigued by the different titles you had for different weeks and different authors you were reading. Most that I've read, there's some I'm like, I have not read that person. I want to read them. But we find the subject of you title it peacemaking in week 10, which it seems like that's the introduction to RT. So I guess I'm curious, how did, how did you come to rt? How did you hear about it? And how does that end up in your course essentially?

Yeah. Yeah. And so I found out about RT through you, Rhett. I mean, I think, you know, post something grad, just kind of. We kept in touch lightly and would listen into your early podcasting kind of days when you were without Lance. Not as good quality without Lance. No, I'm just kidding. It was great. I was learning lots of things, you know, and just enjoying it. And read your first couple books that came out as well. And. Yeah, and I think it was when you did an episode on the Pain and Peace cycle. I was like, oh my gosh, this model is so clear. It's so concise. It's so easy to teach. Or not easy. Not. I'm not trying to say it's too simple, but it's like this is something that you can really sink your teeth into quickly and share with people and kind of get. Get people looking. And there's lots of other models that I think have a cyclical sense to Something like EFT also has this, you know, the dance, like, has. There's. It's. It's not the only one that has that, but it. It felt to me the most concise and clear. And I was like, I really like this. I want to kind of play around with this. Um, can I use it in class for interpersonal? Communication? Can I. It's also interrupters. Right. Like, can I use it for talking about how we talk about. To ourselves? And so I just started kind of playing around with it and, and trying to use it in a. You know, in a class or two. And then I was like, I want to take some more time and like, actually have students read, you know, some. Something from. From that's, you know, some published work rather than just kind of working with the four steps in a class or something. So this was my first time in this class having students read Hargrave and. And that's kind of what I chose to use. I. I know there's so many awesome authors as well, but I'll. I'll just. Since people can't see it, I'll just kind of read through at least in this class, the way they. Okay. The way I've kind of structured each week kind of explores like a theme. And I start by talking about integration. And integration is where. Where I begin because I think it's kind of as I described earlier. I think it's really key to thinking about healing. It's. It's. It's reconnection and difference maintained. Right. It's. It's this idea of like, things can be together and unique. And Dan, this is your definition of integration? Yeah, this is kind of my definition of integration based on Dan Siegel's work. So we kind of start there in the class because Dan Siegel talks. Yeah. Down to the molecular level, up to the systemic level. Like that. The integration is making sure that these things can be connected but still differentiated. We kind of start there, we get into therapeutic relationships, presence, listening, alliance, connection, vulnerability, attachment, right before peacemaking. And so for peacemaking, I have them read some Hargrave. Understanding the patterns of. Understanding the patterns of pain and then finding truth and the peace cycle. So I have them kind of read a little more in depth about the pain and peace cycle. And I have my students kind of work on modeling their own pain a piece cycle.

Are you using, like, which. Which resources are using with your.

I think I'm using that from. Let's see, what's the co author on that? I think it's the chap. I think it's in this one.

It could be the original.

Could be. I could be wrong. I have a couple. Because there's also Terry and Nicole's book too. I'm like, maybe this is from Terry Nicole's. Or is it from this one? I'm forgetting.

But you pull it from the book and then have. Cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And anything we discuss here, we'll. We'll post in the show notes.

I can. Yeah, I can give you the actual reference.

No, and I have your syllabus up too, because I'm interested in that flow. I think what I'm curious about, like, in your role as a professor and you come across a theory that you like, like, how do you. How do you learn it, you know, and. And make it. Make it embodied you.

Yeah. Wow, that's a great question. I mean, I think, I think with RT specifically, I read for. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think you did your episode on the Pain and Peace. Like, I think I was exposed to it in like 2019, so maybe it was 2018. Was it right before the pandemic? So pandemic hits and I'm like, I'm gonna go back to that podcast that Red did. Yeah. I'm like, there's something for me in this, you know, not just like, this is gonna be interesting to other people and I can teach it to other people. Um, and I think I. I found the four steps really helpful to me during the pandemic. So I was just, I was just reading more on RT for, For my own well being during the pandemic. Right. I was like, I need tools to walk through this crisis. I need resources myself. And so I think, I think when it comes to kind of bringing theory through, as an educator, I do try to sit with something for a time, at least a year or two before I start introducing it into my teaching. Sitting with a text, you know, with rt, it's very obvious. You need to. How you can apply it to your own life. Some other theories maybe, or not quite as obvious, but it's like I'm going to work on my own four steps before I'm trying to kind of say, hey, you guys should do this too, you know? So I think I spent a good year or two with it during the pandemic, and I taught this course for the first time in 2024, I think. So it was, it was a little while of sitting with it. Yeah.

What was the responses to your students? What?

Students love it. It's a clear model. Right. Like, I. I think I, you know, I've heard both of you talk about how the people that you work with in your practice love it because it's, it's like they can leave the room and apply it that day. You know, sometimes it takes time to have enough insight into your steps. And I especially those sort of first two components of the cycle, of the pain cycle, like, it can be hard. And I think sometimes what students will come up with in the classroom, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know if that's your pain cycle exactly. You may need to spend more time with that. But it's an invitation. It's an invitation for them to explore it. And I trust that if God has something for them in it, he's gonna, he's gonna, you know, like, just like he did that for me. It was like there was something for me and there's something for them in it that they'll keep wrestling with it and keep pursuing some insight though. I, I, you know, have wondered sometimes I'm like, oh, is it irresponsible to introduce them to this concept without walking with them fully like a, like a practitioner would, to kind of really get deep inside. But then I was like, I don't know, we do marriage conference and things like that. And it's somewhat the same. Right. We don't know the follow ups, not there, like can't always be there. But it's still, I don't know, an invitation. Yeah.

And this is helpful actually because Lance, I'm thinking about it like Tammy, you may. It might be the first that we've talked to, at least on this podcast. Like a lot of time it is introduced to people in a thera, a therapeutic setting where there's like you're going to walk through and come alongside them or like in a coaching setting. But I don't think it should be like limited to those settings. And so this is like I'm. As you share this, like I'm thinking about all this. I think it's really helpful. Like I am curious, like what does a. I guess it would be like any other book. Like I have, I have Friedman's book back there too that I love and differentiation of self and all that. And there's a lot of examples in there that nobody walks out with me and I got to go out and figure out how to implement in my own life. And yeah, I guess what did you. Any other like discoveries or insights as you were like introducing this model or as you sat with it yourself that have been really Helpful to you?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think. Well, I'll start with something that has been the most difficult for me is sort of working with students on kind of like their four steps individually and then relationally, which I love how, you know, relate strong curriculum, like, does that well. But for me, I have found that hard kind of teaching both. And so I have just kind of stuck a little bit with more of like the individual kind of four steps. But I'm wanting to do more with sort of the relational intersection of. Of the two. Yeah, I. I think I. I think. I don't know. I don't know that I have any more to say on that. I'm like, yeah, let me sit with that a little more and if something comes, we'll come back to it.

One of the things you were talking about earlier that I found really interesting around this kind of idea, around the. The organization communication elements.

Yeah.

And what makes. And you know, I was raised in the era of the Beastie Boys, so we get that ill communication every now and then. But I was thinking about like, good organizational communication and things that you've read, things that I know this kind of like part of your. Your flow, like when you're thinking from. Because in, in Restoration theory, we talk about usness, right. That's when. When the parts come together and what we represent as a team. And I was actually, I was kind of curious around how that. What that would look like from the. From the organizational communication. Seem like it seems like you get quite big with it. So I'm kind of curious from the macro flow.

Yeah, I think this is actually something I think I'm still wrestling with. So maybe that's why that other question stopped. I don't know what else to say about this, but this is actually what I've been wrestling with recently, which is. I think the most recent time I reached out to Rhett was more around the organizational because I think, yeah, we could do usness into teaming or something like that, but there's not the same level of commitment and entitlement within a lot of like, organizational teams that are at least like professional teams. Right. And so I'm like, how does. How does that translate? Because, yeah, I think entitlement being a key concept in rt, it's like you're not entitled in the same way to create an us with like, let's. So I work with, like I said, healthcare teams. Right. So like healthcare team. Is there. Is there entitlement within that?

Yes.

No. Yes. I think that's something I'm still kind of wrestling with. I think there is something there. I think people want usness and. And teaming. Right. Like, they want to be on a team that feels like there is some level of entitlement to love and safety. But I. Yeah, I think that that actually is the question I'm wrestling with right now, Lance. So those. Yes. Good. To answer Rhett's question, Lance's question.

I think we're all wrestling with these things.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's, like, from, like, the RT lens of, like, looking at the truth, like, knowing our identity, knowing. Knowing our sense of safety. And when we don't, like, we have that wrestling of the blame and the shame that just makes us go crazy. Like, that's not good for a team environment or communication.

Absolutely. And I think, you know, a lot of teams, especially in healthcare, too, will talk about, like, psychological safety. I'm like, okay, so what are the, like, preconditions for that? And how would you. How do you address how. How would you do repair for a team around that? And I think that's where I'm trying to kind of play with RT right now is can we. Could you. Could you, for example, again, in a healthcare team or a clinical practice team. Right. Could you come up with, like, four steps that a team could do together?

Yeah.

In the way that you might in a marriage or, like, let's do our steps together. You know, are there, like, would having that language be helpful to teams to be like, oh, hey, there's kind of been a violation of safety, or I guess you'd probably want to use identity rather than love. But, you know, could. Could a team develop that kind of language so that they have kind of a communication procedure for reestablishing safety or a procedure for Internet, you know, like. Yeah, it's a way of providing something, a tool that a team could potentially use. But I haven't. I'm still exploring that. I think I'm still trying to. That's what. And that's why I reached out to you, Rhett. Cause I was like, are you doing this in some of your coaching work? Like, are you, like, are you talking about it that way with anyone you're coaching? You know, how is that coming up for you as you work with any of the organizations you've worked with?

Yeah, I'm still, like, fumbling my way a little bit, you know, because the first time I did it, I went into an environment. They had me come in and coach was like, 2000, 15 or 16 maybe. It was like a Hilton hotel. And I did a Marriott one, like a three day workshop and I was just using straight RT stuff and trying to change some of the language for some of the, some of the environment. And I didn't go back and do more training, coaching till years later. And so I think like this is one of the reasons I like having you on because I think you're raising good questions and trotting some ground that people are thinking about but we don't really have answers to. And if this, maybe this is okay with you, I mean. Yeah, you may want to say something about your husband, who you're married to and why you're thinking about. Yeah, this too because I think it's just you're obviously involved in the church world, you teach students at university, but you're married to somebody in the medical world and I think you're thinking pretty broad on some things.

Yeah. Yeah. So. So my husband is a physician and he works in physical medicine and rehabilitation and he's a pediatric provider. And so he has recently opened up a clinic at his hospital. So it's Children's Hospital Colorado for Functional Neurologic Disorder. And so these are kids that present with neurologic symptoms but there's not a structural cause. And um, used to be in the DSM as conversion disorder. That's getting kind of rebranded in some ways cuz it's actually more helpful to think about it in terms of function is why that's, that word has kind of been brought in. And really the best approach to healing fnd is kind of getting a whole family system involved in believing and hoping that the child can get better. There's no structural reason why the child can't move through and have recovery from these neurologic symptoms because they're not structural, but they're, but they're showing up. And so why, what are those underlying, you know, psychological causes, causes for that and kind of redirecting families from medical overuse to, to therapeutic support. So we've been thinking a lot through kind of the families that are having these experiences with their children and you know, what would be helpful to them, how do we talk to them about what's possible. And kind of, we've been kind of thinking about, you know, this clinic is kind of a communication intervention. It's, it's not saying you aren't having these symptoms. The symptoms are real, you're experiencing these symptoms and healing is possible. And so we want to reframe how you're thinking about this. It's, it's a communication intervention and you Know, from kind of an RT perspective, we've wondered, is it. Is it something that the body is doing rather than having kind of like anxiety? Right. Like, is it something that the body is doing to deal with certain stressors, whether it's spasticity or involuntary movements, things like that? Right, right. Can. Can we think about it that, like, we've been like, can we think about it that way? I don't know. Is that Right. Trying to kind of think about, like, all right, the differences between this and malingering and, you know, like, how are these. Okay, so maybe this is still something that the body is doing subconsciously. Right. And so we've just been kind of, you know, playing with that, which I.

Love that idea because, you know, I think when we get into medical mode, we're, like, trying to be diagnosticians. Right. And one of the cool things that Terry is like, he's like, insight. That's 20% of the work we need to be doing. 80% practicing getting people in the flow. And I think so. I appreciate that you guys are. Are doing that because, like, okay, it's there, so let's. Let's find ways to work with it, and let's see if we can make. Shift what we're seeing in the room.

Yeah, yeah. And as you're saying that, too, I'm like, yeah, I think what they're kind of doing with this clinic is kind of a truth intervention. Right. It's kind of in that third step of, like, you can't. Your body can heal, you can get better. Let's intervene with that truth. There's nothing structurally holding you back from getting better. And then let's. It. I feel like it's a truth and hope intervention that they're. That they're offering. And I'm like, that's kind of a cool way to kind of map that. Map that on.

Yeah, yeah. What can you do? Type conversation.

I think that's.

That's one of the things that Terry really has us. Go home. It's like, hey, even if you have some disease, what can you do? Instead of looking at, I can't do this, I can't do that. I can't do that. You know, what can I do? I think that's such a powerful idea around. You know, it's sad when you look at what you can't do. And, yeah, that's. You know, we. We grieve and we mourn that. But there is something powerful about saying, well, I can still love. I can still, like, pray. I can still do this. That the thing. And learning how to flow with that versus focusing in. On, like, that. That negative messaging, which would be looking at your pain cycle, basically.

Yeah. Yeah, that's. Yeah, I. I love that. And the thing I love about my husband's feel like physical medicine and rehabilitation is very function focused. It's a very. Ask that question. It just kind of takes that kind of approach, which is kind of why he kind of feels like he's the right person to kind of sit in that space between neurology or, you know, like, usually this is kind of a diagnosis that comes through your. All through neurology. And he's like, but we're in the function business. Like, that's. That's what we're here for. And like you were saying, connecting to what you can do. And for providers like you guys included, holding hope for what's possible is so healing. Right? It's. It. It really is. It establishes you're. You're holding. If I can go back to where we started, like, you're holding onto the hope of connection, whether that's neurologically or spiritually. You're holding onto the hope of that for someone. You're kind of stewarding that hope for someone. And yeah, it's a beautiful. It's a beautiful thing.

Love it.

She doesn't know. Are you going to meet us in Pepperdine next year for the restoration therapy conference?

I would love. Yes, I would love to come.

Mark your calendar. It's on the. We got it.

You have the date. Let's hear it.

Is it, I guess, the first. Yeah, I got to look. It's the first week of March 27at Pepperdine.

Awesome. Yeah, I really. I wanted to go to the last one, and I.

This is closer for you.

It didn't work, but I would love to come.

And no offense to all you Amarillo people, this is much prettier than Amarillo.

We love Amarillo.

Pepperdine is beautiful. I will.

I can search Malibu. I'm at Malibu.

Hey, Lance, I think we found the doctor to run all of our research for us, too.

Oh, yeah.

She doesn't know it yet. She doesn't know it yet.

No. Let's keep talking. This is so fun. I'm like, I think this is just the start.

I tell.

I'm curious about. Because you run, I guess, you know, there's kind of this integration of multiple fields for you. You know, what do you find yourself, like, really excited about these days in terms of work, in terms of, like, vocation? Are there. Is there some direction or some Theory or some thinker that you're just really like, this is awesome.

Yeah, I'm really enjoying Chuck De Groat's work right now. His book, Healing what's Within has been really powerful for me right now. And this kind of. He presents these kind of, you know, the three kind of Genesis, three questions of, um, how God, you know, kind of attempts to reconnect with us and heal us of kind of, you know, where are you, you know, sort of what, what kind of shame are you experiencing? You know, who told you? And, and then where have you gone with your pain? And I, I love it. I think it connects with the kind of RT model as well. It's kind of like in some ways it's. God is asking some of those questions that are involved in the steps, you know, know, you know, what, what, what it is that you've believed. Why have you believed that? What have you done with that pain? And then can we invite you into kind of a different narrative? And the whole Bible then presents like this other, other journey that we can then kind of go on. I've really been enjoying his work and I think vocationally, just feeling drawn more and more to care ministry or supporting care ministry within churches. And I've had the opportunity to work with some churches kind of in a consulting role and have just really, really loved that. And even in kind of a lay staff role, it's been really, really fulfilling and really beautiful work for me because I think people come often to the church before therapists, and if the church can steward that well, if they can help them find people to walk with them, it's just really powerful. And I think often the church doesn't always do that well. And I'm not blaming the church at all. It's. It's just. It can be hard to make those connections and make sure that that is, is happening.

Yeah, I, I feel like I, My heart goes out to churches, man. It's. You're, you're constantly. You talk about communication. Like in Squeaky Wheels, there's always stuff that you're having to do. I, I really. Therapy world, it's so nice. All we do is meet the soul, care for it. We don't have to do all the ext.

Yeah, right. You've been in both. What do you see as the key challenges with Lance?

I, I think.

And Lance has you. Yeah.

I mean, to me, sometimes the grass is always greener. Sometimes when I'm sitting in my therapy office, I, I long for like, some of those pastoral care days like that. Look Differently and operate differently and. And the way that you can show up for people and. And. And I. I miss those. I really do. And then. Then there are days where I'm in the church or I'm talking to pastors, and I'm like, I appreciate the boundaries of, like, the kind of therapy office and the things that we do, but what. What I'm kind of hearing and I've not read extensively on. On Chuck DeGrow. I read some stuff. I know who he is. You know, he's also a therapist and leads retreats and is a professor. And I think Western Theological Seminary. I think it sounds like what you desire. And I know. I know Lance does. I know that. I do. I know that Ro, who was on here earlier, that theological, psychological, like, whole person kind of integration.

Yeah. Yeah.

Is what.

Yeah. And I think. I think the church also, you know, within, you know, rt, you know, it's like identity and safety, those are the keys to flourishing. And we have to have some theological conversations in order to answer those questions. Right. Of, like, do I have an identity? And. And can I be safe when I'm gonna die? I will die. Like, I will actually, from a physical perspective, encounter demise. Like, that doesn't seem so safe. So I think, yes. I think the church is actually a very beautiful place to. To approach those questions. And I just really think it needs to be one team, one dream, you know, like, it just is best when practitioners in the church can team up.

Yeah, I agree. I think that makes a big difference.

I think that's why I was always drawn to the books of Henri Nouwen and stuff, as a guy who is deeply trained theologically and was a priest and wrote beautifully about the human struggle and stuff. And one of the reasons I like talking to you, Tamara, too, is, you know, you're embedded in academia, which I think is, like, really important to bring.

Yeah, it's, you know, one. It's important to bring. You know, we want. We want things. I mean, this is. This is cool. This is a nice moment of, like, coming back to hanging out in the back of the pews with Rhett, like, there. We want things to be intellectually honest, too. Right. Like, we don't want things just to, like, feel good in the heart. Like. Yeah, I would really love to feel like I have an identity and that I'm safe, but also I want to feel like it's on it. It's true. You know, Like, I want to feel connected to truth as well, and that what I'm believing is. Is really Something trustworthy. And I think that those two. The. The marriage of theology and psychology, or the integration of them is. Is something that the human soul can rest. It's like, ha. Both are there. You know, the heart and the mind. Like, they. They can both, like, rest in that. Yeah.

What do you think does. Makes that. Well, like, how does that look good? Like, when you find, like, back of the pews or whatever? Like, that moment where we found a really nice, like, chord or harmony as we've blended, you know, them together.

Yeah. This wasn't in the course. We didn't say we're gonna talk about this, but, like, polyvagal theory is something I've been really trying to explore. Like, what is it like for people to experience, for example, a preacher's state? You know, like, how does that influence how they're experiencing what they have to say? And I'm sorry if I'm just, like, dropping yet another theory, but hopefully, I think that's a fairly familiar one for a lot of the listeners.

Some.

You know, it. I. I've been like, is. It is like, trustworthiness from. Like, from a pastoral team? Is that just felt. You know, is that something where you can just kind of. It's. It's about. And sometimes, you know, maybe it's just. And also, like, when people are like, I don't know, I just didn't connect to that. It's like, did your. Did you just need a different state? Did, you know, did you need something that was a little more escalated, like. And that'd be fine, you know, if that was good for you. I think, at least for me, Rhett, in experiencing you as a pastor, as a shepherd, there was something that was both, again, that, like, intellectual and then also embodied that it was like, this feels trustworthy. I feel. And I think it. I think. I hypothesize that maybe it had something to do with just your state and what my body needed as a state to meet in that moment. You know, I think there's no. There's nothing wrong with all the different states that our bodies can experience, but sometimes we find that match where we're like, okay, there's enough activation here. There's enough dorsal here, you know, like, that. There's an. There's. I can. I can be here. This feels okay.

That's interesting, because you make one wonder, too, if one. If I was. If people interact with me over different seasons of life, if they would experience me differently and.

Yeah.

You know, and not as safe or as trustworthy or loving or whatever. And it says something about the continued work, I think, of. For us to continue to work, of getting into our piece and showing up in healthy ways. But I'm glad when you. You. You were at Bel Air, that that's what you experienced.

Yeah, me too.

He just finished his dissertation, and I think he writes about. You write about polyvagal theory, too, and some of the anxiety stuff.

Very fascinating. I think it does blend well, you know, particularly around, like, talking through, you know, the. The difference between dorsal vagal autonomic nervous system and then the ventral vagal. Ventral vagus states, like, and to recognize them, you know, it's. It's literally like autonomic nervous system and vitro vagus, or just basically, that's our pain cycles expressed in different polarities.

And.

And then the. The dorsal vagal would be. You know, that's when we're in our state of peace, where we're able to connect. That's how you were connecting with Rhett in that moment, that he was very attuned with you and very, very able. Not only you had this, like, creative element that allows you to connect with, like, you know, the scholars of yore or whatever, but there's also this piece where it's. Rhett. You know, he's my buddy, he's my bro. Like, I can. Like, there's this, like, safe, authentic connection that we can do. So that's. I. I would. Yeah, I find. I find that, you know, I'm sure we'll have more conversations with this down the road, but polyvagal certainly is a. I'd say it's. Polyvagal is way more complicated. I really love the. The simple nuances of restoration therapy, but they're. They're all in the same umbrella, I would say.

I love. I love how you map that on. And. And I'm thinking, too, Brad, I feel like you might say that in that time, you experienced yourself as a little more activated, a little more sympathetic activation during that season of life for you. I know, not long after you wrote your book on anxiety. Like, anxiety was really on your mind in that season of life, and you were about to get engaged to Heather. Like, that you have said it was like a really, you know, stirred so much at that time in your life. But I look back, like, you were saying, like, if we met in different times in our life and our state, I'm like, I needed that at that time in my life. That's where I was. And like Lance said, you like, you bringing in and integrating conceptual, you know, ideas and, like, yeah, it, it really, it met me where I was and I, I think you guys probably know from your practices, sometimes it clicks and sometimes it doesn't. And I think, I think that's what's going on there and I think that's why. But it's probably actually a lot more complex. But that's all I can kind of point two. Yeah.

This is like. I have so many thoughts. I was thinking about, I'm going to go back to the college group for a second and just like thinking about that group of people, you know, and I was thinking about the research on what? Like trans. You know, look at the re. I can't blame blanking on the person's name right now. It's like a 60 year study. On what? On the transmission of faith over time through different generations. The one ingredient they come back to is warmth. Right. And when you look at the literature, warmth, I think is embodied by safety in that. And I think about.

What is that?

I think about the college group at those days, you know. You know, I'm not saying we. It doesn't matter if you have. If a church has all the right theology or they follow all these rules. If people show up and don't experience you in a warm, loving way, it doesn't matter. And so there was something about the people you ran with and maybe the space you're in and hopefully us leaders up front that made it feel at least warm. Right?

Yeah.

Because I know there were churches up the, up the. Up the road who felt like they had all the answers. You know, that a lot of kids like, well, they're, they're, they're the ones preaching the Bible. And so there's something that makes you feel safe. And you know, Lancy, we love C.S. lewis. When I'm. And I'm rereading the Chronicles of Narnia right now. Or the line when Lucy asked if Aslan's safe.

He's safe. Yeah, but he's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's definitely not safe, but he's good. And this. There's something. Even though the world may feel chaotic, there's something that feels safe. And yeah, there's something. And I get, you know, you put it in peacemaking on, on week 10. There's something about being in your four steps in your piece that I think makes people feel really safe. And the fact that we can actually try to practice that, you know, it's just not magic sometimes.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe some people just. There's something about them that show up in some pretty magical Ways. But we have the ability to, like, practice in our marriages and with our students and our. Our clients, which I think is really cool. Yeah.

Which is kind of so interesting, Rhett. You know, I just kind of think about the differentiation between, like, someone who has, like, that great warmth, embodied presence versus these other communicators. I'm not going to name any names, but the ones that ring the bells, the ones that, like, cause all the alarms, and there's this draw and, you know, Tamara, you're on here today. I was kind of curious to hear your thoughts on this. Like, you know, you have these. Like, we're so drawn to the alarms from a communications lens. Like, oh, man, this bad. You know, that. That drop, you know, and it creates that. That weird state inside of us. I'm curious how that would. What. What's up with that?

Yeah. Do you mean. Do you mean people that are, like, flashy? Is that what you mean by alarms, like, things? Or do you mean alarms like that. That, like, act, like, get us? Like. Like, I'm not so sure about.

Yeah.

Or like, people that are communicating out of pain? I would say.

Yeah.

That draw in audiences, you know, that. That maybe, you know, when they're up there, like, you're gonna go to hell. You know, we'll just.

Yeah.

Or you know, just weird. Like, weird things that are.

And you're kind of like, saying, like, why are we drawn to that? Like, why do we still go to that?

Yeah. What's up with that?

I don't know. I guess. Yeah. I mean, RT is probably helpful for that. Again, I don't know. The same reason why we might stay in the pain cycle. Right. Like, it gives enough. It gives enough of a false, like, hope or something. Like, it gives something that will go after that instead. And it's not giving peace. It's giving maybe a sense of justice or something. I. I don't know yet. Like, maybe a sense of vind. Vindictive, you know, like, I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get something from this. I guess. I don't know. I'm, like, just trying to map it onto rt, since that's what we're doing.

No, I mean, even just from a communications perspective.

Yeah.

That. I am curious about that. Like, why are we drawn to that thing? That person.

Yeah.

Enter any cable news channel.

Right. I mean, and there is. I mean, so there are some concepts within sort of the kind of sub discipline of rhetoric that would kind of be like, you know. You know, there's different strategies for registration, and one of Them is sort of just like alarm, emotional alarm. Right. Like, that is a rhetorical strategy you can hit and it's effective. And that's like what all politicians do. That's their rhetorical strategy. Right. It's like, let's hit that emotion button and. And emotional alarm. Let's get that going. Um, but I. I think, as we've just said, it's like that again, within our. That keeps you spinning. Right. You're just going to do that. And people. I think at some point, often I think of people who are really drawn to those communicators. Often at some point that stops and they move on to some other communicator or some other conspiracy or whatever, you know, like, because it's a false promise. It doesn't actually. I think we all do want peace. And those kind of communication strategies can be, I think, a flash in the pan or like, then we learn, you know, something about that person and we're really negative towards it or, you know. But it's interesting to think about. It's kind of both the. The sender and the receiver to use the transmission model. Again, like, their P states are kind of. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, it's like whether what kind of state the sender is in and what kind of state. State the receiver's in. This connects to some of the stuff we were just saying about me and Rhett. Right. Like, I guess if you're. If you're not in a peace state, you're going to be drawn to stuff that's not too. I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

What I. If you put on your, like. Professor. Well, you can. You can integrate all the.

Dr. Powell.

Is there any, like, passage of Jesus or some other speaker in the Bible that you're like, wow, that just really embodies a lot for you, either personally or it's something that you think you would use as an example to teach.

Yeah. It's specifically connecting to communication or.

Yeah. And just maybe even this thing that we're talking about, about safety and other things too, how we experience people. Because I'm thinking about your own journey, too, to faith. I mean, at some point, I'm sure there's some even, like, passage you read or something you read with a new lens of Dr. Powell. Right.

Differently, I think there's so many. But the one that's coming to mind right now is. And I. I'm not going to be able to give you the chapter and verse, but when. When Jesus is, you know, right after he casts, he's Flipping tables in the temple and, whoa, this guy's got some power and authority. There's a whole group of people that, like, come to him and they're like, hey, like, we're kind, oh, wow, wow, wow. You know, you're. Wow, look at you. And, you know, Scriptures tells us that he did not give himself to them. There was like, kind of like this discernment. And I think it. I'm guessing it's an embodied discernment that we're kind of discussing, right? If he was like, you guys are not after peace. You know, you're after power. And I'm not in, like, that's not the direction I'm going. I'm not going to give myself to you. It was a very differentiated response, right? It was like, no, that's not the way. And he's not mean or cruel to them, but he just kind of heads the other direction. And I've thought about that Scripture in terms of the class after peacemaking. We talk about leadership and differentiation and awareness. And I've thought about that Scripture as it relates to that, about how so much of doing the work that we might be invited into with RT or other models for healing is really learning also to be like, what are. What are the relationships that I need to have and to pursue. To pursue peace? How do I need to work within those relationships? And I just think that was like a masterclass in Scripture, like from a. If you're saying, put on the calm professor glasses, you know, Jesus, you are differentiated and peaceful in your approach to expressing that differentiation. And I think we could all. And I. One of the things we do at the end of this class is trying to kind of build, like, some resilience because all of the students are going into helping professions. And I think the whole class is sort of building toward. Toward a kind of resilience that Jesus also shows in that MO moment. Like, if I'm not going to give myself to people that aren't for the things that I'm also for, and I'm going to know who I am. And that's how I'm going to say that's how he stayed strong within his. His ministry and his call. And, yeah, I don't know. That's the scripture that hits me right now so good.

That is. That's a beautiful interpretation, too. And.

And obviously he was for them. Actually, he came to die for them. So it's not that he. He was like, you know, you guys suck. He was just like this. These particular relations. He didn't give Himself in the same way to everyone. Right. He gave himself fully to the three. It was like transfiguration. You get it all. Full access to the 12. He gave so much of himself and he gave a vulnerable self. He gave gethsemane to that, you know, like, he. He gave so much. Um, but then, you know, to the crowds, to the fair sees less, less, less, less access. Incredible differentiation and discernment that I think can lead to resilience in helping professions.

I love that. It's such a beautiful image of like, knowing the call. Like, what. To me, that's like the one thing that kind of brings me back to center a lot of times is like, hearing the voice, like, following, you know, following, like, oh, just follow him. I don't have to like, worry about all these things on the left or the right. Not politically, but I'm just saying in general, I don't have to worry about, you know, these things. All I have to do is just lean into the calling. And, you know, he wasn't trying to be a rubber rouser in that moment. He knew there was something bigger and better and greater for everybody, which was to give of himself everything, which gave power to everyone.

Yeah, yeah. He knew that the. The needs of that crowd would be met by, like you're saying, staying true to the. The specific. Like, the just really staying clear sighted. Like. Yeah, he wasn't disconnected from them. He was still connected to them and what they needed and wanted. And.

Yeah, I wonder if people's. Even people's interpretation of that passage says something about their emotional state. Because a lot of times when people are talking about it, they're referencing God being. Or Jesus being angry and like. And rabble rousing and.

Oh, totally.

Them permission to turn over tables in their own tables. Right?

Yeah, it's my righteous anger, Rhett.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, give me my righteous anger, man.

But I love that it was this differentiated response, this out of like, peace.

Yeah, that's really interesting. That's interesting to think about anyone's interpretation of scripture and see, you know, so Polyvagal uses the like, story follow state is kind of like a. And. And it's like. Yeah, I think about my own engagement. Engagement with scripture and state too. Like, I think early on, before Bel Air, you know, I would sit sometimes and like, read my Bible with a flashlight in my room as a kid. And I don't know, like, my state, it was different than in college, than in, you know, and like, scripture hits different when the story hits different depending on your state. And I think I think part of the beauty of, like, the sanctification process is God makes you more and more peaceful, more and more secure in Him. And so the scriptures open, like his beauty opens, the goodness of God opens and deepens. And. Yeah, and that may be related to kind of the state that, the more secure, safe, peaceful state that you're able to experience in relationship to Christ and, and, yeah, and what that does in your own body. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.

So we're coming up on time here. And, you know, one of the things that, like, I was really excited about having you on today was I feel like you probably have, as a communication person, you probably have, who works with health and mental health. I, I, I'm curious around this realm of, you know, if you could talk. Like, our audience is mostly, you know, that I like to imagine all my closest friends. Just kidding.

It's your mom and your dad.

Hey, dad, thanks for listening again. Yeah, but, but we have a lot of people that are trying to help people and care for people. And, you know, this is something that you've really put a lot of time and effort into. How would you want to encourage our pop, our team, our people on how to be better carers? I know you probably, this is like, you know, six, you know, 16 classes or whatever, but, you know, if you were to give us a, a good bite or something to munch on here today, what would that be?

Yeah, Yeah. I don't know where I'm gonna go with this, but we'll just kind of say something like, just that God wants that integration for you too, like all that you want to offer to your clients. All that. And I, I think, I think we all know this intellectually all the time. I know, I know this in my own life, but I have to continually be reminded that God wants the goodness for me that I want for other people. You know, that, like, that he wants that peace for me too. And I think often those of us that are drawn to the helping professions, like, there's a real need for peace in our own soul. And God does that in different ways throughout our life. All the stages, you know, it's just, it is that our own journey is just as important as any journey that we want to invite others on. And I know you two both personally embrace that. And I've really, I mean, I think I've really learned that from you, Red. I mean, I think that was really one of the things that most drew me in early on was that, like, just the, the very personal nature of God and of what he has to offer as well as the collective restoration that that's offered. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know that that's too communication y.

But no, I think that's beautiful.

And we have to have that reminder. Tamara, I think you're absolutely. Or Dr. Pa. Hey, where are you today, personally? You know that care you're trying to give to that person across the way? Just take a breath, look in the mirror and know that's for you too. That. That you are a loved person. That. That. That. That God is with you or whatever you're. That brings safety in your heart and your soul. Like, you're not alone. There. There is an invitation for you as much as you're trying to care for that other person, for you to lean into for as well. That's beautiful. I need to hear that.

Yeah. I'm like, thank you, Lance. I'm gonna go listen to your voice saying that tomorrow morning as I come. You know, like, that was. What a blessing you just offered. Thank you.

It's like, as you're saying that, Lance, it just reminds me of the power of, like, that third and fourth step, you know, say, being able to say the truth out loud to yourself.

Yeah.

Within how important that is.

Yeah.

I'm excited.

Actually. I do have. I have one more thing I'll share. Like, I'm. Like, I want something communication specific. So a practice that I have started doing before. Before I teach or before I'm, you know, presenting publicly. Something like, whatever that is. And you can get to feel a little like you're. You're. You're like, you could do your four steps. You could totally do your four steps, but also, you may not have time. And so a practice that I've started to do is if you're familiar with St. Patrick's Breastplate Prayer. It's a long, long, long prayer. You can't do the whole thing, but within it has this idea of, like, God before me, God behind me, God around me. And I've started before I go, to communicate anytime. So for any of you that are engaging in communication of any kind, whether it's with a client or you're presenting on something, maybe you're in. Maybe you're working on a graduate degree. You know, like, use your hands and just take a moment to just move. I just move my hand like this before me, behind me, beside me, and I do a circle all around me, and. And it just helps me to then enter into that presentational kind of moment from a place of peace. Because I've kind of just checked in about my identity and safety kind of before I do it. And it's just a nice physical practice that I just like. And I like ending it with that kind of circle. It just feels really centering.

I love that.

Yeah. I was like, I want something. Like, I'm here as the communicator, so you're above me. Right. And you can't. When you're about to take the stage, when you're presenting, you can't necessarily do something big where you're like, you know. But you can take your hand or you could even just take your finger on your hand or what, you know, trace on your hand behind you. Like, if you're nervous, you could trace it in your palm of your hand behind you or something.

I could even integrate it. Like, I do say the four steps anytime I speak backstage. And when I'm walking up, I could.

Even, like, could do the same kind.

Of thing, movements with it. You know, we talk about the importance of. It's just not saying that stuff, but, like, using some movement with it.

I love that.

Yeah, I'm gonna practice that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love it. Even, like, practicing a prayer that is for. That has been used for centuries.

I just really love that prayer, too. Yeah. It's just a really beautiful one that feels very powerful and. And centering.

Yeah.

Patrick's.

And it's all true for you today.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sorry that I couldn't, like, recite it from memory, but if you want to read. Do you see the part that I'm. Yeah, we'll put it in the. In the notes. Perfect. Yeah.

Do you have it in front of you, Rhett? I bet you do.

I think I do.

Red is like, mister. I feel like he's got, like, some extra.

So quick. He's so fast.

He's like, oh, let me. From the interwebs of my brains I arrived.

I'll find it real quick. Yeah. I rise to it. Let me bring up the section that. So the prayer begins with. I rise today through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity, through belief in the threeness, through confession of the oneness of the creator of creation. And it goes on and talks about, I rise today, this. And it's sort of, you know, just connecting with that. That peace and that power. And then it ends with this. It says, christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me, Christ on my right, Christ on my left, Christ when I lie down, Christ when I Sit down. Christ when I arise, Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me, Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me, Christ in every eye that sees me, Christ in every here ear that hears me. I rise today through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity, through belief in the threeness, through confession of the oneness of the creator of creation.

So good.

So good.

Well, let's end there because that's a beautiful way to end.

Yeah.

Cheers and thank you, guys. Thanks. Thanks for coming on today and I know it's a special treat for everybody listening and we'll definitely have you and your husband back on. We'd like to dive deep into that. I think that would be a really important conversation for our community.

Yeah, let's do it. That sounds great.

Right, Take care, everyone.

All right, take care.

Bye.

Bye.