Season 2 | Episode 56 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Cori Page

Lance, what's going on, Red? Wait, hold on.

Cheers.

Cheers, man. Hey, quick announcement.

Talk to me, Goose.

April 24th and 25th in Texas.

April 24th and 25th.

Yes. April 24th and 25th. Actually, I better pull up the calendar. Double check, make sure. Yes. 24th and 25th. It's a Friday night dinner, and then all day Saturday, nine to, like, four. We're doing seven CEUs. Eric Solwin is teaching on forgiveness. And this is a Texas gathering, so registration is up and live. We're hosting about 35 slots. We already have about 15 signed up, so we're pretty excited about that.

Oh, man.

So go to the substack RT dialogue substack, and you'll see a link to registration, and I'll put it in the show notes again. Spotify, Apple, YouTube. People can register, so don't. Wait. Texas people. It's 50 bucks.

$50.

Dang, dude.

So r. This weekend, I just did a level 2 training, and for the people are from that church. Hill Country Bible Church.

Hill Country Bible Church in Texas.

Yeah. This is awesome. These people are great, man. You got. You got a good crew. I. I'm. I'm excited. Then Eric Salin bringing it. Bringing the heat.

Yes.

Yeah. Super stoked for you, man.

Yeah. Shout out to Brian Snead and Stacy Rachmanis. I probably didn't pronounce her last name correct. And Carrie Mead, who is not at Hill country, but here in Texas, they've been working behind the scenes to get all that going. So thank you, Texas or Hill Country Bible Church in Austin, for hosting. So it's gonna be great. Yeah.

And an extra shout out to Brian because we love you, Brian.

Yeah. Thanks, Brian, for all your work. I. I've. I flubbed him accidentally on some other scheduling for podcast, and so, you know, I appreciate his patience. I'm. I'm kind of all over the place these days, so I better.

Big time. Big time, guys.

All right, Lance.

Okay. This is a person. I think if you were to listen to the podcast and you're like, why does Lance keep on this name? Corey? I think Corey's gonna do this. I think Corey's gonna do this. Guys, this is Corey. And you're about ready to figure out why I keep calling her out. Corey and I go back. We go back to 2010 at Fuller Theological Seminary. This is part of my cohort, good buddy, co therapist Corey Page. She is absolutely.

Actually, are you Corey Schwartz and Paige, professionally Corey Page.

Okay. This is the professional Corey Page. We're excited to have her here today. She. When it comes to therapy, she is what we would call the natural. She has the way to hold a person like no other, to lean in, to create safe space, to explore territory. Um, so I'm excited to have her here today. She's got an amazing practice up and going. She actually has her own consultation group, which I know you'll probably share about here in a second, but she's up in Dublin, not Ireland, but Ohio, and we really love her team and they've been part of our consultation group a few times. And so super stoked to have you on the podcast here today, Corey Page.

Thanks, Lance. So, yeah, Lance and I definitely go way, way back. Yeah. And thank you for those kind words. That's really sweet of you. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Dude, we were co therapists, guys. This poor Corey had to sit and, like, we were doing live team training. Like, you know when you're learning how to do therapy and, like, it's super awkward and weird. Well, Corey and I got to be awkward and weird with one another as we were helping people in the therapy room. It was quite the. Quite the experience. What. What do you. What do you remember of that, Corey?

That's like some trauma bonding right there. It is.

We actually had tough cases.

Yeah, we did have some tough cases. And just beautiful people, you know, that we got to meet with. And very thankful that they walked. They allowed us to walk with them. Yeah, we were the very first cohort that Terry did the Live Mode training with, so we, in some ways were the guinea pig. But it was such a gift. I'm so thankful for it. And, yeah, I. I know you talk about, like, oh, the learning and the hard stuff, being a new therapist, but I actually just feel so, so, so grateful that I was able to be paired with you. We have very different ways of showing up just naturally in the therapy room and in life. You know, we're different people. But I loved and I'm so grateful that I got to be your co therapist, Lance. Like, I really am. From the very beginning, you had this courage to just step out and do whatever. And, yeah, I think courage and creativity are just written all over you. That is such a core part to you. And that is exactly what I needed to balance out and still do to balance out. And so I, in so many ways, am just so much better because you were my co therapist. I really see that in you. So I would be sitting back. I didn't actually even have the courage at that time to sign up and fill out, you know, whatever form we had to Fill out to be considered for.

I didn't know this.

No, I was, too. Yeah. I think my shame coping kicked up a lot at those days. If you knew me then.

Yeah.

And sometimes now. But there's so much growth because we can heal a lot over time.

That's right.

But, yeah, I. I didn't even have the courage to sign up for that. I was like, oh, that'll be other people for sure. But I did sign up. I did interview with Lake Avenue because they did a lot of, like, international kind of therapy, or they did some of that. And that's something I'm really passionate about and got to, you know, learn a lot about working from an organization that can kind of do some of those things. And because I was already accepted at Lake Avenue. Thank you, Sega. I was able to. I was in automatically in the first cohort. Thank you so much, Terry, for doing that. And I'm not sure how they chose to pair all of us up, but really, Lance, I carry you with me in my sessions now. My. My clients know the name Lance, and they have for the last 15 years, because I'll talk about, you know, being in the flow or, like, I'll talk about parts of my life and therapy, but I also talk about, you know, how your practice and how you show up. And, you know, I think my friend would probably say something like this right now and just encourage people to have more of that. Yeah, that presence where you're like, here I am. I'm gonna. I'm right here. That you're not hiding, Lance. And I love that about you. And I really am absolutely a better therapist because I was partnered with you. And it's been incredible, too, to, like, come back more so into the community. This last, you know, since the summit, it's just been. There's so many opportunities now to connect. I'm so grateful.

Yeah.

And see, like, how much depth you've grown in professionally and personally. And I think that's a part of what I love about rt, is that it's not this, like. What do you say? It's not this, like, curriculum you go through, and then you're done with it. It's this process of becoming. And there's so many layers to that over time. Yeah, there's so many layers, and there's so much that we learn through relationships. Like, we're better through our relationships. But Lance also has been the person that I will call whenever shit hit hits the fan. And I'm like, oh, my God, what am I doing? What do I do? With this scenario that's coming up, whether it's, you know, owning a practice or sometimes client scenarios, and we can certainly walk with our clients well, but sometimes it's really helpful and to have that community. And also, personally, like, you saw me through all of my 20s, and he and his wife would even have me over to their house and took me my first and only time surfing. And, you know, guys just always speaking into my life. And I appreciate you, both of you.

Oh, man. Which. Which is crazy. Corey and Jennifer, my wife, went surfing and I surf all the time. Like, I, I am on in the water at know, one to two days a week. And my wife, I think I've seen her surf, like, been out surfing with me maybe two dozen times total. And one of the times she actually went was when Corey was in town. So I was like, hey, like this. It was, it was exciting to get her in the water. So. But yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah.

And yeah, I mean, the feeling is mutual with you, Corey. I think your. Where I have the courage and creativity, you have the, the natural talent and brilliance. So that's, that's, that's why I think we were such a good tandem is that I would try my best to learn from you so I can apply it to our clients.

I mean, same like, so Lance would jump out there, he would get clients out of their seat, and here I would be, like, taking up, you know, as little space as I could in the chair and sitting, sitting back. But when we were in our flow, like, our way of working together, he would. He would have these incredible ideas and they would be, like, forming as he was going, which is very arty. And. And as I learned to let go of that, like, control and step into my embodiment and see, like, what he's doing. Like, we were a great co therapy team. We really were. I can't. That's like, one of my dreams is to be co therapist with Lance again. Because I did in this sitting, I want to. That's my dream is to work with Lance and be a co therapist with him at some point again. But, yeah, I think my nature is kind of for those therapists out there who are like, you never could see yourself on a podcast or, like, putting yourself out there or whatever it is in your pain cycle, know that, ah, it's such a lie. Because in our peace cycle, like, there's really amazing qualities that show up. So, yeah, those are the qualities I saw show up in Lance just naturally in not just the therapy room, but also in, like, Leading our cohort and getting us to like, just gel really well. And also for myself, like, being able to sit back. I think I'm one of those therapists that. One of those people that, you know, are given eyes to see people and kind of see what they're going through and just very sensitive and so good. Yeah. So there's just. We get to know ourselves better through relationship and lean on each other in that way. May you love being your co therapist.

Do you guys think it says a lot that I don't know if it's unusual or not. Do you think it's unusual for people to be in grad school together and like, over time do all this work? I know like, you've kind of weaved in and out of people's lives, but I'm thinking, you know, Corey, you just spent time this weekend when in Arizona with the, with. With Terry and Sharon and some of your team. And Lance and I will be doing that soon. And I don't know, is it. Is you think it's. That's unusual in the therapy world to like, have this long term kind of like relationship with a colleague under a certain model that, that for some reason that feels kind of unique to me to rt.

I think there are unique parts to that nrt. Like, I know that I have. I'm also an EMDR clinician and I know the EMDR community loves to meet up with each other and do like, you know, humanitarian assistant program kind of projects or trainings and things. And I think there is great camaraderie there and I appreciate that. I think what I love about RT is that because this is a model on becoming and like, refining ourselves and stepping as fully as we're able to, like, the growth doesn't really stop. Like, our pain cycle doesn't actually go away. It's just there in nuanced ways and whatnot. And. But like, this model is not even just about regulating ourselves. It's about regulating so we can step up and show up fully. And. And I think that process of becoming really gives us this drive to continue diving in deeper. And therefore our experience doesn't stop with just the head knowledge and like the professional knowledge. It drives us towards each other. And I think, I mean, that's my perspective of why RT itself does that. But I think it wouldn't be rt, you know, if it wasn't for Terry and Sharon and then the community that like, spoke into them at different times and just being. I'm so thankful that Terry and Sharon invited me to their Home, I went with. I'll name them because they're wonderful people, and I'm so glad I got to go with them. It was five other female practice owners, so Grace. Ooh. Is the one who put it all together. Man, she is so creative and also very fearless. Megham was there, which had. She has, you know, that great depth of wisdom and skill. And Melody Zhang, who. I mean, I've already claimed it. I know this. This might be a little bit of control showing up, but it's just already decided that I'm going to be friends with you for a long time because we just have such similar hearts for, like, taking therapy to different cultural contexts and globally and locally. And she. She works with a lot of Chinese immigrant families and complex cases that are. That she's able to. To connect to people and walk them through that in a really beautiful way. And Rachel Engels, who is just this. I don't know if you guys have met her. She was at Fuller, part of Fuller staff, for a bit, but she is this, like, embodied social reformer who's out in Minneapolis and just very much so has, like, a heart for the people in Minneapolis and what's going on there, but also feet that are just, like, moving and doing stuff, and I love that. And Hannah. Hannah Chung was there, who is just. She just kept bringing up all these interventions she was doing, and they were just so precise, and her words were so precise. And I was like, man, I just get to learn from these people that I didn't really know before I went. And I think. Not to ramble too much, but, like, I just. I think the type of, like, mentorship that is on becoming, like, becoming more of ourselves over the course of time as humans, and then out of that, being able to invite our clients into that same journey allows it to just continue to grow depth and continue to grow that community, because that's what Terri and Sharon do. Like, they are just these incredible mentors who give so generously. Like, so, so, so generously.

Absolutely amazing.

So, yeah, those are thoughts that come to mind. What do you think, Rhett?

I don't know. I mean, I was just kind of envious of, like, listening to how you guys have had, like. I think I just missed that window at Fuller, graduating that MFT program in 07, before Terry and Sharon came in. You know, some of the. I think there were people there really involved in eft, and they probably have stayed pretty close in their training and stuff like that, but a lot of us didn't have a model. We were trained Under. And it's funny, at the same time in 2010 you guys were doing that, I was up at the hideaway being trained and they were just calling it the Pain and Peace cycle. At least up there, I didn't know yet it was rt. So you know, it's kind of on parallel paths. And I just think that's pretty cool that over the last 15 years and I know your guys story is not unique, we could probably pull a lot of people on here who have done some work together and have grown together over the years. And so I don't know, that's just exciting. And I'm saying that out loud. I guess I'm just talking about it because a lot of people who are listening who are either looking to be a part of a community and are trying to plug into restoration therapy and I think I'm going to encourage them to do that in whatever way that they can. And then there are probably some listening who are like, oh yeah, like they can think of a lot of people in their lives right now they've walked this journey with as part of rt. And so. But Corey, you said, was it really the summit that got you kind of back into like the RT world last this last February in Amarillo?

Yeah, so I hadn't been to any of the summits prior to that. I actually only knew of one summit that was prior to that, but I did not go to that one because instead I took a clinician to the RT Level 1 training in California with them, which was just a few weeks before. And I couldn't do both of them at the same time. So when you're saying that you felt like a little envious, oh my gosh, that's totally my pain cycle too. Because there were a lot of years where it was just like, you know, therapy in L A or any job in L A, you end up having to have multiple jobs and it's very, very hard financially to make it when you're going through your internship is that practicum, internship phase, we call it different things here in Ohio. And so I just was like the limited resources were speaking to me and feeling like, oh, just can take me out of being as connected as I could be. And then I went into having some shifts in my job and decide to move back to Ohio and was like, oh, it's even further. And then I heard about, I got remember talking to you, Lance, whenever you started the Hideaway and I was like, oh, that would be amazing if only, you know, instead of recognizing how tricky our pain Cycle is because it does lead us to disconnection. And I think what I recognized that just, like, thankfully came to me probably about six months, maybe six, eight months before the summit was, oh, my gosh, this is just my pain cycle lived out in my professional life. And so I was like, okay, well, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm not going to listen to that in a way that keeps me less connected than I would like to be. And so I started. That was a part of that year's New Year's resolution or something. And so. So I wanted to be more connected to my habit in a journal, actually, to be more connected to restoration therapy as a whole and the inspiration that comes from here. And so then I got the email about the summit, and I was like, yes, I'm so glad this is happening. And then I went. And then, you know, oh, that was incredible. That was so incredible. And took some people from my practice. Practice. And then, yeah, I've just been deciding that I'm gonna be a person who's connecting others to this community because I know you're out there, because I know there's people that are like me. And your own pain cycle. It's your pain cycle. So I would say, yeah, there's just so many open doors in RT to connect. We have a lot of focus groups, so if you're interested in certain things, just email any of us. I happen to have a little bit more time right now as I'm transitioning from doing a whole lot more child, little kid time to having just some extra time to do things professionally or just in different spheres. I'm excited. So you can email me. I love meeting with people who are artsy therapists, and. And then there's lots of opportunities to connect.

So, Corey, why don't you tell. So we know you have your one group, your consultation group.

Yeah, I changed, by the way.

Okay. Yeah. So tell us that and then tell us the. You have your one cohort that you're working with and people might be interested in that. And then if there's any other things you'd want to share about. And then maybe Rhett and I can play around with one of those things to work on today. I think you also wanted to talk about usness, too, so.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we have a group of five clinicians here in Ohio, and we have a couple other clinicians who will join from around the Midwest area for our zoom group consultation, where we come up with interventions that we've been trying, talk about our successes, talk about, you know, where we're getting stuck and do case conceptualization and we'll just try out new things. And that is on the second Friday of every month we change the time from 2 to 3:30 Eastern Standard Time. And any RT clinician is welcome to come to that. If you're interested in RT but you're not quite there yet and you want to hear more about it, there are plenty of us who would talk with you. You can do a zoom call with me just to Hear more about RT before you take the RT Level 1 training if you're interested in that. But then we also haven't been at a stage in life where I've had the free time or space to read as much. And so I decided to do a book club with my team and anyone else is welcome to come. We meet for an hour and a half to two hours. We allot two hours but you know, and we'll get coffee, tea, some pastries and we'll talk about an RT authored book. We've gone through a number of them. Monica Di Christina, I have not read your book yet and so that's going to be the next one. That's going to be next month.

Oh, it's great.

Yeah, yeah, she gets into it.

She gets into it. So you'll. Yeah, she's so powerful. Like her the story. She tells good stories throughout and then has really good integrations and she uses a few different models. But you know, always true to RT there. So yeah, definitely recommend your Pain has a Name.

That's the book.

Okay.

Yeah. And people who can find that consultation. I'll change the time on it but it'll be at the substack too. There's a link for the group that you guys meet. So that's awesome that you're doing that. Were you inspired to do that after the summit or was that even before?

I'm not sure. I think it might have been before because we would go through like you know, our textbooks and whatever other books we could find some that are not RT but we're, you know, trying to learn about with. I'm also a csat, a sex addiction therapist and so there's different materials there that we would read. But after learning that there are so many RT authors and I just didn't know that, we decided to step into reading RT books for a while. It's helpful to reread textbooks too because they, they're full of stuff that you don't pick up the first time. But then there's also other groups I Guess to go through those. So we started a sex addiction. An RTSA cohort. I named it Cohort. Not that we're at the student level. Oh, yeah. Our students. But I just. That's a throwback because I love my whole cohort so much from Fuller. But rt sex addiction group for people who are trained in sex addiction and wanting to work well with that. We've been coming up a little bit more with what is our modality through rt. How do we look at sex addiction? So that's been really quality. And then I am in some other groups and I'm so excited. Are starting up a trauma and forgiveness group. And because I'm an EMDR therapist and the forgiveness model is probably what kept me in RT and spoke a lot to me in my own personal life.

Yeah, we did a group, remember?

Yeah, we did. We could talk about that. What do you remember from that group?

Well, I was. I'm thinking, Lance, I'm listening to Corey talk. She's got the same kind of. Let's call it, I don't know. Disease that you and I have. We're interested in a lot of things. Yeah. You know, and we have our hands in a lot of things. And I was kind of curious with all this stuff that you've been, like, focused on and playing around with recently. Like, is there one. I don't know, is there one thing that, like, has, like, really grabbed you, like, most of your attention right now at the moment that you're like. This is where I want to go really deep with.

Yeah.

By the way, that was a compliment by saying you got the same disease that Lance and I have. It's a. It's a curse. It's a curse to be interested in a lot of things and to have time now.

I'm so thankful.

The scene is Jack of. You know, Jack of all mini trades, master of none. Or wait, Max, wait. Oh, yeah.

Jack. Jack of all trades, master of none.

And do you know what the rest of the saying says?

No, what does it say?

But better the sum than just the one.

Ah, there you go. No, no one ever says that last part.

I know. You gotta. You gotta finish it off, man. Makes the sound amazing.

What do you think is, like, really? Because, you know, like, behind the scenes, you are working on a lot of stuff, and you're helping a lot of areas of RT that we need help with, and I'm appreciative of that. But I was thinking, man, I wonder if there's one area where you're just.

Like, yeah, let's do that.

Super excited about right now at the moment.

Yeah, that's kind of hard to answer. I know like my long term goal with RT and just my life, but I think a lot of these areas start to stack on in order to get me to that place more fully. What's your.

What, what's your long term goal with rt? Life.

I really. Do you know what it is, Lance?

No, I'm just excited because you're going to listen to this, like going to play this for you ten years from now. We're going to laugh.

Yeah. I really believe that in the reason I went to the school I did and into the profession I did is that I really believe that the field of psychology has something to say for like macro level healing. So healing between people groups in the community and you know, globally and whatnot. And so I think if we can figure out how to do relationships well in a micro system, we can apply a lot of that to a macro system. I think my long term goal is to have like not just knowledge about how to do stuff but like actually tangibly just doing more like more and deeper work with people who are impacted by war and natural disasters. And that's my heart, that's my hope, that's, you know, what I was doing a long time ago trying to step into and it's hard to find pathways in but that there are more now. And I think RT and the forgiveness model and like looking at usness and looking at how we carry ourself and bring ourselves into community has a lot that can apply to healing trauma and trauma narratives that are passed down and Warren stuff. So I mean it's not quite formed for me yet. But if you're interested in this, you know, peacemaking, especially with either local, which makes sense, local conflicts, natural disasters or global context. That's my heart. That's what, that's really all I want to do. But I love the work I'm doing now because I think people in these types of contexts experience a lot of traumatization. So trauma and forgiveness group that leads to numbing out in different ways. So figuring out how to work with those numbing out things that can then take a very strong neural network path for you, like addictions is really helpful and really getting good at like that work in the therapy room with couples with families, with an individual who then goes out into their workplace is I guess my path. So all of it is connected, but it's just still forming for that heart. But I, I just think I'm. I want to do that. Yeah.

It'S a. It's a pretty timely topic.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah. Like, the idea of, like, restoration and healing among groups of people and just outside the individual level in our offices. Is that something you've, like. I'm curious if that's something you've always been interested in or is that, like, been growing in you recently?

I would say it's always been there. I think I've always been interested and curious about people's lives. Like, even elementary school. Like, my. I loved learning about how communities were or like, people were, you know, hundreds of years ago in different, you know, different communities. I grew up in a small town that wasn't divert. Very diverse, but with the areas of minority groups that were present in different ways. I think. I think I just. Yeah, I think I really have always been kind of interested. And it's molded and shaped in what that looks like. Like that desire to see people thrive and to connect with and learn from people and just seeing people's value and figuring out. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not really sure how to answer that. I think it's always been there and it just kind of molded and shaped over time.

Yeah. Yeah, I was. No, I was just, you know, depending on when you guys. I mean, I kind of know when you're at Fuller and depending on your Fuller and depending on different opportunities. You know, I think there were some professors I was thinking of, Glenn Stassen in particular. He taught ethics and stuff there was talking about, like, peacemaking a lot. And his work is really profound. Before we even hop on this call, because I haven't heard anyone really talk about this. You had mentioned, like, usness, but you had mentioned it beyond like a couple. It seemed like you were talking about the idea that concept larger scope. Did I mishear you or is that something you've been kind of playing around with?

Yeah, I think. Thank you, Terry and Sharon, for having this group of women out to your home to train us and talk with us. And actually, Terry and Sharon were the ones who were talking about that us. Ness. That's out. It's just in relationship to others, you know, and it's. It's central to marriage and family therapy that. What is it? The sum. The. Some of the parts. How does that go, that saying?

Yeah, some of the parts make the whole.

Yeah, some of the parts.

The parts of the body.

No, I'm thinking more mft, systemic with.

Takes a village to raise a child.

Now, anyway, I can't. I'm a poor mft. Field. I'm sorry. Yeah. Just like the.

The.

Some of the.

Someone out here out there is listening, and they're gonna be like, yeah.

And they're gonna be like, yeah. My client actually had a client recently tell me that quoted to me, and I was like, how'd you know that?

Here it is. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Thank you. Yes. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. There is something. Thank you so much.

I had to Google and it came up lmft.

Yeah. This is why we're in relational therapy, is because there is some. Something that happens when there are two people together. Like, we can't even know ourselves except through others, you know, and through that being reflected back. And so when they were talking about usness, was it Sharon who talked about parenting? No, Terri. That when you are a parent, you're not a parent to meet your own needs. You're a parent to meet that child's needs. And when you look at a relationship to, you know, when you look at being that parent, though, by that process of sacrificing and giving, like, just so much, giving everything that you want and that you can to that child for their benefit, not for ours, it grows you into this version of yourself that you like more, that you love more. You. You're a better person because you're in relationship to that. That child. Because you are a parent, you will love yourself more. And seeing it that way versus, which is why we have. Parents are unconditional towards their children, their children's development for the whole entirety of their life. That it's not that I'm unconditionally giving you all the money that you want and all the things that you want, because that's not good for you. That might make me feel good that you'll be happy me, but I'm giving to you in ways that are going to create you to be the best you. You can be. And that kind of perspective as a parent in sacrifice and joy and just like vision creates that parent to have greater character and embody their true self more. Their sense of trustworthiness, their reliability, their figuring out how to connect and be like the openness that they. They can. That's appropriate. And how to. How to be like their most trustworthy self, how also to belong and show that child they belong. They learn that they belong. And like, we're all parents here. And I. I am a better person because of my children. And. And when I know that I can stay in the right connection to them and so they talked about parenting. They talked about friendship. It's. It's also. I'll see. I have my notes so I can get some of their good words because they're just so insightful at this point in their life, man, it's like just hanging out with these wise sages. Like, they're just so great. Even more than when I was there 15 years ago. And I learned so much. There's just. You just, man, thank you for continuing to grow and go through life and share that. But, you know, intimacy is this thing where you are sharing your thoughts, you're sharing your desires, you're sharing your feelings. You're letting this person see you so, like, truly be seen by that person. That's intimacy. It's not. Needs meeting, sharing of yourself with your partner and as. Or maybe a friend. And as you share of yourself and you are with that person, this, like, invisible relationship forms. And it's full of very real things like our usness. Lance, as co therapist, like, I am better. I like me more as a clinician and just as a person. He also helped me with, like, learning how to date and stuff because I. He and his wife would talk to me through stuff like that and all sorts of things. I think I really grew a lot because of you guys. Thank you. But your gifts and your talents come to the forefront whenever you. When you're in your peace cycle and when you are in connection to people. Your gifts, your uniqueness, you know, your identity is more clearly seen. Lance, hopefully you learned how creative you are and how courageous you are. Like, it just is, you know, And I got to learn more of that, too. It rubbed off on me, and I started to develop more of that. So we know our gifts and talents we like, are balanced out. We get a taste of who we are in relationship to others. And yeah, I just. I think I'm thinking about usness coming out of this time with Terry and Sharon in a deeper, richer way. And I'm thinking about that in relation to Minneapolis or here in Columbus with our. Our neighbors that are, you know, from Haiti and apparently are safe enough to go home and have their legal status changed and no longer be able to work. And I. It's making me think about those people that I do that are part of my community and how I show up and also how much richer I am for getting to, you know, rub shoulders with the different people in my community who are so very different from me and yet, like, I'm better because of that. That usness.

It makes. I don't Know, if you guys ever. This book is, like, written in the 90s by Robert Roberta Gilbert. It's called Extraordinary, Extraordinary Relationships. And she. She was a Bowenian therapist trained under Bowen. But she. Her book looks at. She goes from, you know, individual to couple, to family, to city, state, nation, global. And this idea that, you know, when we are well differentiated selves, we can show up in relationships essentially when we're kind of emotionally relay, you know, regulated and. Yeah, I know, I know. We think systemically as LMFTs and as RT therapists and this idea that when we can be in our peace cycle with other people, we can impact not just the person, but entire communities, entire systems. And when you have a whole group of people doing that, the, you know, I don't know, it's just. It's overwhelming to think that one person or a couple people can do something, but a few people can change an entire system. And we do that by showing up in our peace cycle and being well differentiated, being emotionally regulated. And it seems that we need more people doing that these days.

Yeah. And I think it's. We need.

Yes.

You know, you to do that. We. We need each of. And I'm saying you. And I'm looking down because I'm not speaking to you, Rhett. I am.

No, no, I know. Yeah.

Listening. Like, there are unique ways I will not be a person. I will write for the substack. I do have some articles we can repair for that if we need to, because it's taken me some time. But I think, yeah, there are unique ways that we are gifted. I have worked with people who just so happen to have given their career path to policymaking and in Columbus, because I was right across from their State House, my first office in Columbus. And so that person and their position and their personhood, you know, has to answer for where they are positioned in society and their ability to step in. And so I want people to be empowered and regulated and knowing that you have choice right here with how you steward trustworthiness in your community and how you steward caring for others and valuing and seeing others. And we have to know that before we can really give it. We can give it some, but I think you'll just feel so much, you'll see it. So there's different positions, Right. Like, I am a clinician and I see myself in between kind of things a lot of times. So there's an awesome organization here, Riverview International center, and they do a lot with helping people, helping new Americans, immigrants come and establish here. They have like, well over 50 countries represented that they, you know, work with, and it's full of volunteers. And I got to. I got to be very connected to them and use my skill, my giftedness as a clinician to consult with them and help them through some of the challenges that they're seeing with people and even their staff, helping their staff go through some major changes in leadership and trying to do that well and figuring out as we go what could be better and. And then. But there are other people who have different places, so that's one side of what I do. But then I also. I love working with first responders. I love working with first responders. And I think sometimes we have people who need. Who can work with one part of the population that. And not both parts that may be. May have some conflict with each other. What I love about my first responders is that there's this, like, drive that they have to step in and to, like, step into really difficult places. There's so much bravery, you know, and there's so much desire to protect others and protect society. And I think that's beautiful. And I think when a person is in their peace cycle, there is so much they can do with their unique position. And so I kind of think, see as a clinician, how can I be involved in the different things, different sides of real conflicts that are going on and see, like, that amazing person who's in front of me and as a clinician, how can I help them regulate and learn how to do that so they're freed up to do whatever their thing is in their position and society. Society. But, yeah, I just think there's a lot we do as peacemakers, as clinicians, and we can think a little bit beyond just the therapy one on one or one on two room.

I think it's really fascinating when therapy becomes macro, you know, when we. When we shift our dynamics to the individual, to the whole. And I love what you're. How you're bringing it all up. I, you know, I think there's so many therapists, like, therapists have a lot to offer in this. In this realm, and we're not tapping into it enough. So I. I love even the things you're naming there. So, yeah. What goes on inside of you, Rhett, as you kind of hear the heart of Corey Page?

No, I was. I was kind of curious why we don't tap into it is what I was wondering even before you asked that question. Like, there are things I'm involved in outside of my therapy office that I think are Macro in some ways, but other ways are not. I think there's a fear that I have that maybe I'm not qualified to do that or to speak into those places. I think therapy itself is pretty tiring sometimes. So after a long day and managing your business and other stuff, I'm. And having family, you know, like all of us do, it's hard to think about getting involved in other things sometimes. So I think it's needed. I guess I'm just wondering why maybe we don't get involved. I know if you go to the LMFT site, like the national organizations, there's lots of advocacy groups that they encourage you to get involved in, you know, at that level or in your local level. Yeah, Obviously, Corey, there's things that you're passionate about that aren't listed on any sites in terms of our organizations and your. So I don't know. I mean, I keep thinking about that Visit in like Acts 17 or something about who are these people that have turned the world upside down. They're being accused of these disciples, you know, who are, you know, just a small group of people are kind of turning the world on its head.

Yeah.

And I don't know if it was Tamara, I'm getting our guests confused. Who was talking about Jesus being in his peace cycle in the temple as he's cleansing out the temple? He's not. It's not anger. It's a. It's a. It's a self differentiated, like peace cycle response and how, you know, there's models and examples of people being involved in social change and higher levels and how. I guess we do have something to offer. I guess they're just. Yeah, I'm in my pain, I guess. Corey, sometimes thinking, what, what do I have to offer?

I know, same here. Right. And. But then you. It's just not true though, because you are doing so many things. And we have different places in our corner of the world. But there, there are also people who like that is their focus. I'm thinking of Jacqueline Kirsch and she was RT trained and is out at University of Texas and she works. She's a social worker. So that's like embedded in their training. She is. She works with refugees. Refugee kind of research and whatnot. And there are, you know, I'm thinking of Sophia Herrera out of Fuller, who works with homelessness initiatives and many, many, many other things. There's. There the Coletti and Sophia Herrera have done so many things that are incredible. But she's a psychologist and so there's a lot of, you know, it's, it's not that everyone needs to have the same like way of stepping into macro, but I think just encourage us that there, there are probably things that it works on a micro level. There are probably some implications for macro and it's okay to step into, to try it out. I'm trying out. I don't know what this means necessarily. So if people are interested in that and are in the RT field, like, I would love to talk with you if there are people. I hear there's people in other countries who are listening to this. And if you are a clinician and you want to be trained in rt, this is something that we would love to do. We would love to find ways to equip you in. In rt. There's, you know, there are people who will want to set you up for your context wherever you are. Yeah, I guess just the encouragement to do that. And I think I was thinking about Rachel, Rachel Ingalls who was at the training and she lives in Minneapolis and she just really is very heartbroken by the things that she is experiencing and that their community is experiencing because it is actually on the grounds what you see on the news is what she was sharing and she gave example after example. And so I know that she and her heart was sharing. Like, you know, there are places you can give money. I won't name them here, but I can connect you so that you can support by financially getting people food since they're stuck in their home because they can't leave their home or they will be, you know, deported. Um, or.

Yeah, you know, I, I guess I too. I'm thinking we have to redefine what success means even because it calling 12 disciples and having a close group of three, really. And being crucified at the end of your ministry journey doesn't seem very successful, you know. And sometimes in our culture we think about big stuff and big movements, but it's really, it's the consistent commitment over time of people just impacting what's around them is what leads to great change, I think. And in our busy online social media culture, it's easy to be enamored by what is like big stuff, I think and forget that. Like. No, it's just daily showing up in the lives of people around you that you can impact or. Yeah, I have pastor friends who, who flew to Minneapolis this last couple weeks to support people on the ground there and to try to help, you know, and do their, their, their part, you know. And so yeah, I guess redefining what Success is in the eyes of not the world, but how God sees us and how we are in our truth, you know? Yeah, I'm not saying that very eloquently, so maybe I think you are.

Yeah, I was liking it. I was like, wow.

Yeah, I think it's.

What is my view of success? When do we find success?

Right. And, like, I don't. I do really genuinely have a desire to work with people impacted by war and natural disaster. And I don't know exactly where that came from, but it's there. And I, I, it's been there for well over, I don't know, 15, 20 years or so. Like, it's not going anywhere. So if you're one of those people, but you're like, but I'm just this, like, little person. Doesn't make sense. Okay. I think my encouragement is, well, let's just, you know, show up and see, take those next steps and find your people. But also, yeah, it's not about, like, this area of hurt is more important than this area of hurt. Like, it's a. You can know in your uniqueness. Like, okay, I want to step in right here and my corner of the world, you know. And so, yeah, I think Terry was talking a lot about, you know, taking those, those steps with right where you're at and having it be this, like, slow, small change that we don't really know how it's going to work out, but just being expectant that things can, you know, that small, steady showing up can make a difference.

No doubt.

Yeah. At the end of the day, my faith is supposed to inform me that I, at the end of the day, I'm not the one who is going to change things. Right. It's that just being, being. Being willing to be the vessel that shows up that God can use is what's important. But that's hard sometimes to, like, that's just just hard to remember sometimes.

Yeah, it is.

I love how Terry, when he looks at, like, society and he looks at these ways when he gets stuck in the, you know, his polarization. Great episode, by the way. You guys gotta listen to the episode we have by Terry and Sharon. I think we did it. It was right after the death of Charlie Kirk. We were kind of talking about kind of this polarization of society. And, you know, the first thing Terry and Sharon told us to do is, like, regulate our own cells where we try and regulate other people, which dad got it.

We got to episode 35, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

And we're at 56 today, isn't that crazy.

Yeah.

But that episode and you know, has brought on a lot more conversations and you know, I think one of the big invitations that they really talk about whenever you see like this like ah, stuff going on is, is to really tap into people's pain. Like there, there is pain here and, and until we lean into that pain and understand that pain, this is what restoration therapy like offers. Not only tapping into the pain, but we also tap into the way out and, and helping them to, to step into common truth of who they are and what their situation is and that, that there is a sense of like this is not the end.

That that.

There is more out there. So I think for me like as a, like when we look from the macro perspective, we do have a lot to give and the recipe first is to regulate ourselves. Dag on it. Same thing with any usness dynamic. I think sometimes we try and regulate and pain others in our own pain and we just make it messier because we come in very haughty, like we know it all. Or we come in. Yeah, yeah. Or we come in and we're like, we're so pathetic coming in like oh my gosh, it's so bad. And it's not like we're so, we're no good in those moments either when we're like that. But there is this kind of place where if we do our good work and we step into the healing from this place of knowing who we are and knowing our worlds around us, we have a lot to give. So whether it's this horrible stuff that's going on throughout the world, just like no shortage of pain in this world. The way out is always the way out. Be regulated, do your work and then come in and offer the healing that leans in into the person that you're called to be. That's the cool part.

And so yeah, I like that. And I'm thinking like that coming from that regulated place, you can ask like it's not coming to the conflict with what do I need or what's good for me, but it's what's good for us, what's going to free us up, what's going to connect us in greater ways, what's going to enrich our lives, make our lives safer. And that's very different from having a punitive perspective towards your partner or whoever the other is or the part of our usness that is. And it's more about, I want to free this up into what is good for us and it's moving towards relationship. I do have an Intervention because I feel like I'm staying. So, like.

No, I asked you like, because I know you have an intervention. And the big way to close this episode is you to walk us through an intervention about this us piece because we've been talking about it at micro and macro level. So I am, I'm curious what this is.

Yeah, well, this was. I wasn't even really thinking about this as a macro.

Okay, that's fine.

I suppose, like again, in coming into our embodiment of who we are and we're asking what's good for us, we aren't going to be punitive. We're not going to do, I guess my, the, you know, we're not going to be just blaming the other person. We're going to want them to have more freedom. We're going to not shame ourselves and just like hide away, which would be more escaping too. And we're not going to step in and control. And that I think is something that also been able to work with some community organizers locally and so hoping that, you know, all of this gets taken into different areas just by who are the nature of therapists. We work with whomever shows up at our door and we're just so grateful for them. But anyhow, so for every therapist out there who has literally any couple. One thing that I love. Let's see if I can move this so you can see it a little better. There we go. One thing that I love about my evolution is that now that I'm a mom, the usness of me being a mom has allowed me to be more playful. I just play my way through the day because I have a 2 and a 4 year old, so. And I don't know if I was quite as playful as I am now. I dance after dinner every night and I love it. And you know, I'm just way goofier. And I've always been weird, but now I'm. I love being weird and I tell my kids weird is just be weird. And actually that's a part of what I think we need to remember when we go into therapy as clinicians. Please just be weird. It stands out and it makes interventions come to life and just sink in a bit more and they'll think about it later because why is my therapist doing this weird thing right now? But one thing I have people do is after they are in their pain cycle, so they already have their pain and peace cycle. They're working on the repetition of regulating themselves and then showing up at that point from an empowered place to figure out what do we want to build differently in our relationship? And so after they are already in their pain cycle, after they have their pain and peace cycles and they're in there for, they're doing their four step in the session, I let them fight for a couple minutes, not too long, but just a couple minutes, and really get into it. I might heighten that emotion a little bit more by naming the thing that's going on or repeating a really hurtful phrase. So intentionally make them feel, get there, like feel it. And then I, I do my Corey thing. Sometimes I can be a little spacey. And so I'll be like, for those.

Of you watching, Corey's got some Duplo Legos that look like they're set up in a, it looks like a room.

You'll see. Yeah, okay. I actually give them this. I say, oh, actually I forgot I wanted to do something today. So in the middle of their argument, their pain cycles activated. I go and get the Duplos and I put them on a table in front of my clients and I say, okay, I know that you're talking about that, but first I want you to go ahead and co create your home. And I tell, I just say that go ahead and co create your home. And I sit back and I let them build. And anytime we're in our pain cycle, we are always in our pain cycle. So they will automatically do their copings. They automatically start controlling or they'll start saying a sarcastic comment and throwing the, you know, their partner, the therapist, under, you know, under the bus or whatever. Or they will do, you know, the shame, like, oh, I don't, I don't know, like, you know, they'll do all of it and I let them build, co create this home out of Duplos. And they'll be in their pain cycle doing their thing. And then when they have that first version of their home, I will ask them what was that like for you to co create your home? And then they'll usually still be in their pain cycle. Or they might just be laughing about it a little bit. But, but I will say, okay, well, did you notice when Joey kind of moved into building half the house without asking you? Or did you notice how Sam was, you know, taking down what you already built or telling you what to do? Or, you know, sue just kind of sat back and just kept asking questions, but didn't do anything, didn't participate, and I'll get them to recognize, come on you. And so kind of just take it a little further out so they see Their pain cycle. And I'll be like, huh, I won. You know, I wonder, wonder what I would say is happening. What do you think as you're building some do you like this home? And they'll know because they're in the repetition stage. So they know that I'm going to say it's a pain cycle because I'll help them point that out. And then I have them do their four steps. And once they are in a regulated place, or even as they're getting to their regulated place, I have them do something ridiculous like say it to the Duplos. And you can't really hold a Duplo and think that you are not good enough. Like it's, it's just building Duplos, you know, you're just building blocks. So kind of like having them say their truth to the Legos and it then it brings some like humor into the room and then they're in that spot where they're able to co create because I think that's vital for usness is creativity and co creating and there's so much beauty in that. So then I say okay, after they're already in their peace cycle, I say okay, I want you guys to rebuild this home. And they'll do things that skills that we need in order to build our marriage is to say, you know, I don't know the, they'll kind of volley back and forth. I don't know if I like the front, the, you know, what is that chimney by the front door? What do you think about us moving it back here? Because then we'll have, we'll be able to walk in the house and sit and they'll play around with it. But they'll start showing skills naturally that they need to be using to problem solve which that one I say is volleying. You say what you think will be beneficial to the usness. What's the spend it. What is going to help your relationship be more vibrant, you know, so in Duplo world that might be moving something back, making a change. And so what do you think about this? This is what I think would be really good. Do you like that? Or hey, I know that I built a couple, I built most of this side. What do you think you want for the other? At least start co creating and going back and forth, forth and giving and receiving and balancing it out. And then I asked them what they like about that, how what they, what they liked about that. And they usually think it's fun. They're laughing and you know, being creative and Putting in like skylights and fun.

Things, just being creative closet, you know, for your surfing gear. And a climbing wall in your bedroom. Right. Your house.

Now you're talking about my house.

That's right. So people who like build two separate houses initially.

Well, I'll talk to them about. I mean, I haven't had that yet, but we will talk about, well, is there a wrong way to make a house, A Duplo house? Or I say, is there a right way to make a Duplo house? You need to make the house that I would have. Like, do you need to do exactly what I would want you to do? Or. And then obviously the metaphor, building it out. They'll talk about no. Like, no, they get to have that uniqueness. Right. They get to build this in a way that is going to house others and they get to build their connection in a way that's unique to them. But haven't had people build them separately. But they certainly actually maybe I have. They'll be, they'll build on just their side of it and not like building across. But we'll talk about that. I'll notice what's going on in the room and kind of point that out or ask them what they see happening and then help them. Yeah. Kind of get to a place where they can do it differently. And then, you know, after you do that, you bring it towards something tangible that they can start doing right now differently. So whatever that is, whether it's the skill of when you bring up something, a conflict because you see it, that's gold. I'm so glad you see it or your partner like you. How can you say that in a way that is open to giving and receiving for the controllers, like to maybe give up less of the control and how it should go and bring it up and see what they think and balancing it there? Or Yeah. I mean, what are the opposites we have? The blamer could be more nurturing of like bringing in, you know, how you. What your partner thinks kind of specifically for what their, you know, favorite step is in their pain cycle, their favorite pain coping and helping them do something practically different, whatever skill that is or whatnot. But that's kind of one thing I've been using to help people see the creativity and co creating a better relationship.

I'm just, I'm just watching this and like all the interventions are coming to mind, like the, you know, you know, the, the couple where, you know, something horrible's happened in the relationship and like you could be like, this was our house and now Our house is a. You just crash them all over the floor and be like. And here we are now in therapy. You know, you kind of, like, get dramatic with it, and you'd be like, what are we gonna do? Do you guys want to rebuild this house? Do you. You know. You know, you could kind of. You could even. You talk about the. Oh, man. All you do is build walls. You know, there's so many different things. I'm loving it.

Yeah. It's so fun. Like, be in the room and let your mind kind of go. That's one thing I also learned from Lance. I've learned so much from you on this podcast, too. I just.

I'm positive.

Yeah, the metaphor. You kind of. You just let your mind open up a little bit, trust whatever random thing is coming to mind and kind of go with it. And your clients will. They'll. They like you, probably. And if they don't, that's fine. They don't need to. But you just. You just go with it. A lot of times, they'll start going with it, too. And if they're not, that's their pain cycle, and you can help them recognize that. But, yeah, I love that. Lance just would jump in and. Ah, it was so fun. I. I'm sure you still do that, but you expand the metaphor by noticing what's happening and heightening it a bit in the room with your tone and how you show up and just.

Yeah, that's great, Lance.

It reminds me, since you and I are probably close, the same age, of that scene in Tommy Boy where Chris Farley and David Spade, he's crashing the car in the guy's office and he's setting up fire. You know what I'm talking about? It's like, I could see that with Legos in the office.

Yeah. So funny.

We'll have to have Ro put that clip in at the end of the episode.

Yeah.

You know, and if. If we had only chosen the right brake pads for our. Like, if you just. You just need to put the brakes on guys in your relationships, or you will crash your house.

Yeah.

Oh, man. Great to have you today. Yeah.

Thank you.

You know, we could talk to you longer. We'll have you on again. But I know we're all rolling into counseling sessions here, so everyone is listening. This episode will be up here shortly. Well, I guess they won't know it's up shortly because they'll just hear it when it's live.

I know they'll be like, oh, it's up. No, I just listened to it. Right, it's up.

Have all the. All the notes on the episodes, all the links, all the people that Corey mentioned. Corey, I'll put your email address in there if people want to contact you as well, and your website. And so can I say one more.

Thing in the vein of playfulness? I wanted to suggest that maybe we could start doing a game like Hot Potato, and whoever is on the podcast could also toss it to someone else who could be on the podcast later on. Yeah. So I really wanted Hannah Chung to come on so that she could share some of her interventions, because she just has great interventions.

Hannah, what's your last name?

Chung Chung. C H U n G. Yeah, I.

Think she was in the same cohort as Andrew and Hattie.

Okay.

Yes, she is.

Well, yeah, send us her. Send us your. Her information. And I love that. Hot Potato. That's so great. Let's do that.

Hannah, we're looking for you.

We'll just keep this rolling, and that will help us connect to people that we are just unaware of. And that just because our circle, we don't know everybody, of course. And so this is awesome. Hot Potato. All right, guys, Gal, it's good seeing you, everyone. Have a good day. Take care.

Thanks. Bye.

Bye. Bye.