Season 2 | Episode 62 | Nancy Frigaard & Michael Piciucco on the new Asher Graduate School of Counseling

Foreign.

What's up, Rhett?

We have our dialogue coming at you live today. What's up?

People been asking about the mugs. I, I'm looking into it to see if we can order them for inexpensive and ship them off to our guest. Yeah, have a little, have a little store.

I think that'll be fun. I, I, I dig my mug. Every time I pull it out, and I'm just like, dude, it's our flow. Flow, as my mentor used to always say. Rhett, how are you doing?

I'm doing good. Doing good, looking good. Episodes. You're not watching video. Yeah. Episode two, I'm looking out my window. It feels like Arizona weather right now here in Texas. So I'm kind of enjoying it for the time being.

Nice. Nice, dude.

How.

What a whirlwind of, like, spectacular fun were those last five episodes?

Yep.

Well, our guests coming up in a second are responsible for those, those people. So, yeah, Jennifer and Lorenzo killed. Killed at doing interventions. Lance and I, after the episode, we, we got off and we were texting each other, and we're like, that was hilarious to see Lorenzo crawling on his belly across the therapy room, you know, on top of tables, dunking the basketball. And Jennifer is a great cheerleader.

She's just, like, in there, like, come on, like, the coach of all coaches.

I know, I know. All right, Lance, I got a couple, I got an announcement. Then you have an announcement. Then we'll get rolling here.

Cool.

People who are in Texas, and I guess if you're not in Texas, you could come as well. But April 24th and 25th, in Austin, we're having our Texas RT. I guess I just call it like a therapy gathering. It's going to be Friday night, April 24th. We're going to do dinner out at a Mexican food restaurant that's been picked out already by some people down there. Just kind of hang out, get to know each other. That cost is on everybody individually. And then Saturday from about 9 to 4, we're meeting at Hill Country Bible Church in Austin, having breakfast and coffee and lunch together. And Eric Solwyn is going to be doing a training on forgiveness. And we'll get seven CEUs. It's $50.

And that's just insane.

You guys should be kind of on our Spotify and our substack. And I'm also sending out emails to the Texas group. So if you've not signed up, we have 35 spots total, I believe. And I was telling our guest Michael earlier that we think we have, like 15 or 16 filled up already. So big push here the last couple of months to have our Texas gathering sign up. Yep.

Speaking of people of Texas, Texas Women's College, famous man not known as Terry Hargrave, but Mike Bishop is working on a project researching restoration therapy. So if you are a level two trained restoration therapist, we need your help. And this help we need is you sign up a little survey form thing, and we're trying to go further with the research of restoration therapy, so. Well, I think we'll have a link in the sub stack.

Yeah, we'll put a link in the substack and Spotify, I think, as well, for if that. You can access that to help Mike Bishop.

So if you haven't heard. Yeah. If you haven't heard from Mike Bishop yet, we're gonna make sure the links on there. If you're level two trained, one of our guests, actually. Nez. Nez. Mike, in a. In a special way, I really do.

I would say intimately, just. World's best. He's the world's best roommate. I mean, I don't really know what else to say. Shout out to Mike, Great roommate. I'd sign up. I'd sign up again to be a roommate any day, man.

Yeah, Mike is a big fan of the podcast. And, dude, this guy is the, like, sultan of cheer and love and care. And I will never forget about his thing on how much you suck as a therapist. Remember that?

Yeah. You aren't talking about Michael sucking as a therapist. You're talking about his sign.

Yeah. Yeah, Michael, you used to suck. Now you're good.

Yeah, yeah.

Starting out new things.

He's great. He was always messaging us. He. He would like this mug, and he would like us to be working on that trucker hat I've been talking about as well. So, Dr. Bishop, we're working on that for you.

You got it, sir. Yes, sir. Right away, sir. Speaking of starting new things. Starting new things. We got these.

You introduce our guests today.

Oh, man. The joy of all joys to present to you our lovely guests who are up to shenanigans. Mavericks, one might say, doing cool things. Starting. Starting out. They have a practice, Family Freedom, Family counseling, all throughout the Phoenix area. Right. There's, like eight offices. 20. 20, 25 offices.

We. We have. We have about. Yeah, about eight different locations with partners. We have two main offices and then some partner sites sprinkled around.

Yeah, you guys. You guys are taking over the world, man.

And I guess her name. That's Dr. Nancy.

Yeah, this is Dr. Nancy Farard. And hopefully I say it Right. I always get nervous.

It's good. Free guard. Yep. Yes.

Free guard. Yeah. And Michael Pachuco. Two fun names to say. Don't try and spell it.

Just.

Just love the sound of it. Michael Pacheco, man, this guy is a clinic clinical gem when it comes to clinical work. This guy loves the work. Loves to think about the work. Michael is. You know, when you get down and talk to him, he can go from the ridiculous to the sublime. And that's what I love about him, because I. I do the same. So glad to have you here, Michael. Glad to have you here, Nancy, and excited to hear about this new thing going on. What do you think, Rhett? What do I forget? What else should I share?

No, that's good. And Michael's at Arrowhead Family, so Arrowhead Family Systems, kind of in the Peoria, Glendale area. Also on faculty at Fuller. Can I start off with a metaphor as our launching conversation? Because I keep going back to it. I think Michael knows what I'm going to be talking about.

I hope it has to do with space.

It does. I think it's a good entry into. I think what we want them on the podcast today and talk through. But we were hanging out at Wind Shape back in November, and Michael was sharing about a project that he and Nancy had been working on. And he said when he tells people that he's working on it, he says it's like telling people you're kind of building a rocket ship and explained why.

So I'm gonna.

I'm gonna leave it there and let you guys kind of talk about what we're talking about. How's that?

That's a great intro. Yeah, it definitely was for a while. Maybe still is. Kind of like telling people that you're building a rocket ship. Because the feedback, at least early on, was. Was very like, oh, that's great, you guys. You guys build that rocket ship. Get on out there and build it. You know, and understandably, because, yeah, we have a big project we're working on, and we're just stoked to talk with you guys about it and are thankful that we get to share about it today. So I guess maybe we should start with a little bit of the story. Nancy, you want to start?

Sure. Yeah. So what we're announcing today is Asher Graduate School of Counseling. And I wore the shirt today

already.

Counseling.

Is that olive branch?

It is. So Asher was. It's an olive branch. Good. Good. Either. Lance.

I'm glad I got it right.

You did, yeah. So Asher is one of the twelve tribes of Israel in the Bible. And Moses gave him a double blessing. And Asher means he got all these olive. Olive trees and olive groves and abundance. And as we know, olive. Olive oil in the Bible is. It signifies healing and restorative health, actually. And so abundance, restoration. It also means happy and blessed. And so it was just a perfect name. As we were looking for names, it just stood out to us. And so, yeah, so we are starting Asher Graduate School of Counseling. Super excited. The reason that we're starting it, we was. Well, the reason is because here, especially in the Phoenix Valley, but I feel like nationally we are short on counseling schools and particularly faith integrated counseling schools. And so We've got about 5 million people here in Phoenix, and we have. We've had three faith integrated counseling programs, and one of them has just decided to sunset and close in the time when we really need competent clinicians being raised up. The timing, it was really unfortunate that this program that was pretty robust decided to shut its doors. I heard about this from a donor in the area. He brought it to my attention and, and I was like, oh, that's, you know, that's unfortunate. And I, I genuinely felt sad about it because we, we see the need is just so huge. I mean, so many people need good, you know, quality counseling. And. And he said, well, I, I think that. Can you help me do something about it? And I was like, I'm pretty busy, but, you know, what are you. What are you thinking? And he said, let's go talk to their president. So I end up talking to the president of the seminary in town with him, and they said, we have three problems. Basically, this is why we have to close the program, because our program director left. We know nothing about counseling. We're at School of Theology. So we need faculty, we need accreditation, somebody that knows about accreditation, and we also need practicum sites. So as a counselor and somebody who's been academics, I was like, those, those aren't reasons to shut a school. Like, those are. Those are pretty easy. So. So they said, you know, basically, would you be interested in running this? And I said, not really. You know, I've got a lot of other things going on, but. But I would be interested in helping and I can find faculty. And, you know, these problems are not insurmountable. So that's when I reached out to Michael, because Michael and I go way back. The first time I ever met Michael was in. At Arrowhead Family Systems when I was working there as well. And I walked into the room where he was and he was reading an RT book. And I went, whoa, do you like Restoration Therapy? And he said, I do. He said, this is. This is the theory. And I was like, right, it is the theory. I said. I said, that's my. That's my favorite, you know, therapy type of therapy. And so that's what connected us. And then we started. We went to the level. Level two training together and. Did we go to level one and level two, Michael? We did both. Yeah. So, like, literally right after we met, so we traveled together and anyway, that's. That's the backstory of Michael and I, and we hit it off and we have great fun together. And there's something just incredibly special about Michael, if you know him.

Yes.

He's just. He's just an amazing, amazing person. And. And probably, I don't know, Michael, what are you, like, 15 years. My. My. I'm your. I'm 15 years your senior, probably. So anyway, he's. He's willing.

He's an old soul, though. His.

His.

His soul age is like. I feel like he's, like, in his late 90s.

Yeah, I do, too. Yeah. Somebody I can. I can look up to in many ways. So I love the.

I love the way this podcast is going. This is great.

So I wanted to. Immediately, I thought of him and so reached out to him about this. This venture. Well, we got into this venture, you guys, with this seminary in town, and I don't know, halfway through it, we started to see. We started to see. They. They kept kind of coming back and. And, like, really heavily hinting we can't do this unless you run it. And I just was like, I. I can't be going in, you know, my skis can't be going in that opposite of directions. You know, I've got the practice here. I've got a practicum. We have a nonprofit that is specifically. It's specifically made and originated to train competent Christian counselors in the practicum setting. So we take a lot of interns. We've trained in the last three. Three years, over 30 interns, and we've trained them in RT. And so. So I had all this going. It was set up, but Phoenix Seminary needed a practicum site. And so. So anyway, it all. It was suggested to me, like, offhandedly by. By a psychologist that we work with. He's like, why don't you just buy the program? And I was like, that's crazy. I can't buy the program. And he goes, no, then you could just run it under, like, it. It could all work. Together in this synergistic way. And so I. At first, I just thought, that's crazy, and talked to Michael about it, but the thought stuck in my mind. And so we started talking to people. Could this work? And again, just such a crazy idea. And I talked to our old program, program director at Fuller, Gloria Gabler, and she was like, actually, there's a precedent for doing that. So I don't want to get too much in the. Into the weeds here, because it's a very. Just intricate story of God being on the move over and over again. But she said, there's a precedent for that, and that is possible. So we went to Phoenix Seminary, the seminary in town, and, um, and I proposed this, just thinking, oh, they're just gonna be like, you're crazy. No way. And I said, is there. You know, can we do a partnership? And, you know, Gloria advised, you can't buy the program, but they could give it to you if they're gonna close it. And so. So that's where they. They very surprisingly said yes. It was approved by their board, by their cabinet. Everything was set to go. And at the 11th hour before they were going to announce it in December, the. They decided. The faculty decided that they would really need it to be super, like, have a lot of theology integrated into the program. So much so that it actually made the program not viable because they were talking, like, a hundred total credits. And. And so it dissolved at the last minute. So Michael and I are like, okay, well, we'll keep going about our business. Well, in talking to the donor about what happened, he. He looked at me and he said, nancy, I. I know that the Lord is in this. I have no doubt. And he said, so what I. What I say is, you know, chin up, eyes forward. Why don't we do this on our own? And that's where the. That's where it came from. Simultaneously, Michael and I started getting really, just a lot of favor with. With our Board of Behavioral Health here in town and in Arizona. And things just started unfolding, one thing after the next. So then we were faced with the problem. Not the problem, but how do we get accreditation for this? And, Michael, do you want to pick up there?

Yeah, this is a good. This is a good, I think, microcosm, the accreditation piece of it all. This is a good example of one of the thousand closed doors that we have run into that just opened. It's just been our experience through this whole process to keep running into walls and going. Well, it's been fun. It's been a Good ride. This is probably where, you know, this is probably where the show's over, but

this is where a rocket ship falls apart, right?

Yeah, kind of where the rocket ship blows.

Great spaceship.

And that's okay. Rocket ships blow up. But.

But hopefully nobody in them.

Yeah, no, but nobody in them. But the doors just kept opening and then just, you know, not. I want to. I want to give this really quick example about accreditation because it's. It is a kind of a fun story, but, you know, for me, I just. I kind of feel like I have to share. I'm such a doubter. By my nature, it's even. It's even tied into my pain cycle, having a hard time trusting that things are going to work out. So it's been. This last year has been really sanctifying, to say the least, to, like, see things, to just see walking on water for us and our core faculty. So this accreditation piece was a part of that. We started to dive into accreditation, which I promise I'm not going to bore everyone with, because it's like, it will make your eyes roll in the back of your head. It's so boring. But we ran into some issues and ended up basically discovering. We really discovered that there's this issue with accreditation in the state legislature, in the state statute that was affecting us. But the more we pressed into it, we were like, wait a second, this affects everybody. And then we started to look nationally, and we're like, oh, these are like antiquated statutes that are not in alignment with current nomenclature around accreditation. And this actually affects clinicians all over the country. So we better reach out to our board about this. We reached out to our board and they were like, hey, we've been trying to change this for years. It's a big issue, you know, but good luck getting in touch with a congressperson. So last summer, you know, I was. They're like. They're like, good luck. And so last summer, I made this joke to Nancy, and I was like, nancy, we always knew this was gonna end with us on the doorsteps of, you know, the Arizona, you know, state capitol. But fast forward, sure enough, a few months ago, we're sitting there with an Arizona congressperson because he responded to our email right away, and, you know, we're working with a huge board of stakeholders and talking with our congressperson about changing this statute. And it would otherwise be this really, really difficult thing to accomplish according to our board executive director. But it just, for some reason was. It was just like walking into the. To talk to the congressperson. It's just sort of a funny illustration of like, it shouldn't be this easy, but I guess it has been. And so now this. Yeah, exactly. This statute that's, you know, in the process of getting changed. And funny enough, we're. I mean, we've had people reach out nationally because they've sort of somehow picked up on our efforts to change this statute. So other schools that have encountered this accreditation issue have reached out to us and one of them recently invited us to go with them to Washington D.C. next month to present a briefing to the Faith Council. Because this is an issue for faith based schools, this accreditation issue. So before we were invited, I said to Nancy, Nancy, this was always going to end with us going to Washington D.C. and, and then the next morning they reached out to invite us. And so it's just been that kind of very funny adventure. And that's, again, that's long winded. But that's all to say. There's just been a lot of these little small examples of giant mountains, like, being moved without, you know, that's beyond our understanding standing. So it's fun to talk about.

Are you guys going to be in dc?

We are. We. We're going to present a brief to the, the Attorney General of the United States of America. And it's just, it's wild. So. And literally the night before, the night before we reached out, we. That this other pretty big school reached out to us. Like Michael said, he told. He made that statement. He's like, we always knew. And I just laughed. We never. And so the next day, literally the next morning, I said, michael, we've been invited to Washington D.C. to speak to the Attorney General and a lot of other, you know, people, including Dr. Phil McGraw. So he'll be there as well.

Like the t. Like what? You need to know that Phil.

That Phil. Oh my God, that Dr. Phil's gonna be there. So, so yes, we could never.

Michael with Dr. Phil with her mustaches.

I know, right? So we, we're getting Michael fitted for a suit soon. He's going to get a tailored suit and we'll be there March 16, meeting with some leaders.

That's crazy.

And what this, what this does. So these things just show us over and over again that, that the Lord is interested in this venture for, for whatever reason. I mean, we know the reasons we need. We need good counseling out there to, to help meet the need. And what this does, what all of this stuff is doing with legislation, it's allowing us to have accreditation because we're such a Small program accreditation runs that runs around $200,000 to get. And it's just. It's really not cost.

It's.

It's cost prohibitive for us being. Being this little school. And then every year you have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to keep it. So if we can get national accreditation that still has the same standards, then it's like a tenth of the cost. And. And so that's what the accreditation overall is. Overhaul is happening for this reason. And so there's a lot of schools interested in it and a lot of different school programs. So we've been catapulted onto literally the. The world stage just without ever asking to be there.

Wow, that's so wild.

I have so many questions. Right? Do you have questions?

No.

It's just one of those things in life, you know, we all have hopes and dreams and wishes, but you can never imagine, like this would never be written in your plan of like how you're gonna go about something or accomplish something, you know?

Yeah.

Just like going hands open, just whatever God wants to do. Just trusting that process. It's just always so much better when we can't even. You know, my dreams and my wishes for myself are. Are not as great as what God wants to do in my own life, you know. And I just like you. I just. You too. Like you said, never thinking you're going to be at the steps of the state capitol, let alone the national capital, is just wild to me, that's all.

So wait, what are yalls titles for the Asher Graduate School?

Right now? I'm the president of the school and Michael is administrative faculty and he's going to get his doctorate through our school as soon as possible so that he can get into leadership there at Asher and also be a faculty member, teaching faculty. That's where we're at right now.

That's cool. I was just looking at the program and you have a demon that you offer?

We do.

It's a two year program. That's amazing. It has like RT and stuff all connected to it.

Yes, yes. So that's the program starting with. And it's a doctorate of ministry in marriage and family Studies. And so it really is a place where we're helping, you know, people that already have their MFT degree or counseling degrees can come and get their doctorate. And

yes, I may have to join someday here.

What's that?

I may have to come get my demon there at some point.

Yeah.

We would be honored to have you join us, Rhett.

Awesome.

And. And we would love to have many RT therapists out there come and join. And Michael, I think you, you. You speak really well about how we want to integrate Restoration Therapy into. Into this program and, and into our subsequent programs.

Yeah.

So if you want to speak a little bit on that.

Sure. Yes. First I can speak into it specifically first with the DMin and then maybe just to zoom out and talk about the RT of it all a little bit more broadly, because it's a really big piece of what's led us here. But specifically to start with the DMin, I mean, we do want this to be kind of a practical doctoral degree. It's not a PhD. It's not a PsyD. It's not for producing arduous academic material. It's really for folks who are in the weeds of the work, both in clinical work, but also in ministry. Our vision is to invite in ministry leaders and clinicians together the RT track. Like, we have an RT focus that I think the picture you could paint there is again, whether they be clinicians or ministry leaders, it's a place to come in and be a venue to foster ideas within rt, develop curriculum programs for their respective, whether they be congregation or their field. We think it's a cool venue to be a hatchery of ideas to preserve rt, to push it forward into the future. So that's something that we're excited about for the DMIN specifically. I mean, just a side note, if you're a teacher, you know, in our community, I know there's a lot of you and you're interested in coming to teach and. Or be a guest speaker in your kind of specific area that you're passionate about within rt. Please reach out to us because we're, we are in our development stages, stage of which is fun putting together classes and curating an experience for doctoral students. And we know we have so many experts in our little corner of the world in rt, so please reach out to us because that will make our program really rich and valuable.

Is the program in person or online?

It's a great question. So it's hybrid. It's going to be mostly online. And then twice, twice a year we'll have an intensive where everybody will come to Phoenix for a week. So, yeah, if you're remote, it absolutely will work for you. And we're going to have a cohort. You'll be in, you know, in a cohort. And so we'll come out for an orientation and then a couple intensives each year and we'll have some RT intensives. And again, like Michael's saying we really want. Well, we know in our community, here in the RT community, we just have so many phenomenal instructors and teachers and people that are doing innovative things with Restoration Therapy. And so, you know, there's, there's room to, if you want to, if you want to teach, instruct, if, if you want to take a whole class and teach a class, that would be fantastic. Or if you want to just be a guest speaker for various classes, it will be, you know, an online platform so you can hop on and teach what you're best at and what you're most passionate about and just what a rich experience the students can have if we just get the best of the best teaching what they're best at and what they're most passionate about.

It's almost like a double portion blessing.

There you go. Double portion blessing. Like Asher.

When, when does the first cohort start?

It starts, we are looking to start this September, so this coming September.

Okay.

So. And it's 36 units. It's a two year program. The good news is that if you, if you're either a pastor or a counselor, those are the two professions that are, that are likely going to be, you know, our students for this DEMON program or somebody highly involved in ministry, it may be a non profit, something like that. So a counseling background or a ministry background. And the good news is for your practicum, which is going to be about 100 to 150 hours, you can actually use what you're currently doing for your practicum hours if you're in a ministry or a counseling setting. And so there's two tracks for your doctoral projects and one is, one is a dissertation. But the dissertation, our hope is that it will be a very practical dissertation that could end up as a published book. And as we know, we have some really, really great people amongst us in the RT world who are connected with publishers and really passionate about getting RT works published. Oh, nice old book. What is that book? Did Michael write that book?

Hey. Well, it does look like mustaches. Inspiration doesn't.

Does look like that was. He was kind of an inspiration.

It's so good. It's, it's. I like to, I like to show, I like to bring it up every now and then.

That's awesome. I gotta pick that up. So, yes, that could be an example of the dissertation project. Something very practical. So out of our school, out of the Ashers, we want to ride

in Phoenix.

In Phoenix. We want, we want this, you know, RT innovative movement to arise where there's books being published and at the same time you're getting your doctorate. And these are practical things. It's not these philosophical dissertations that really nobody wants to read. Sorry for those of us that have written things like that, but really a practical outpouring. So that would be the first track is a dissertation that we could get published. And we also, Ron Deal's really excited about Asher, and we're going to meet with him.

Really?

I can't imagine why. Ron Deal, we love you, buddy. We do.

We do love him, and he's been really supportive of this venture. And so anyway, Michael and I are going to meet with him next week, I think, and talk more about this. And then the second thing is an applied ministry project. So you could do, you could write a book dissertation or an applied ministry project. For instance, Jen, I don't think she'd mind me sharing this. Jen, who was on the podcast last week, she's, she's looking to join us likely in the first cohort. And she is probably going to do an RT Kids VBS curriculum and write the whole curriculum and this major project that, that we can get out into churches. And so because it's a demon, it's different than a dmft. It is going to be, you know, very counseling heavy, but it's also going to have that faith integrated part. And I love, like all of us on this, this screen here, we love our tea, but we also love ministry, and our, yeah, you know, what we've studied reflects that. I know you guys have ministry degrees as well as counseling degrees, so perfect place for us.

Absolutely. Yeah. This is, this is so exciting. I mean, I'm not allowed to get any more degrees, but I am.

Oh,

I'm, I'm curious about that. I was thinking I could see. I, I, I am so excited to share this with everybody. How many are you gonna take in your first cohort?

Well, we're, we're hoping for 20. I think. We, we probably will get there.

Yeah.

And if there's more, you know, we'll, we'll try to make room. So.

This is exciting, guys.

Yeah, it is exciting. I just think too, to keep kind of weaving in the RT piece, I mean, we've alluded to the fact that our dream is to have other programs that hopefully we'll get to talk about sooner than later, but history. Yeah. So much of this, the reality is, so much of this is born out of, like, Nancy and I have known each other for a long time. We both spend a lot of our weeks with students, you know, Me at Fuller, Nancy with her interns at her practice. Like, our lives are really spent with students. And over the time we've known each other, we share a passion. There's a certain kind of passion in our voices, you know, when we.

When.

When we get talking about preparing students for vocation in what is a broken world. Like, what is a world that has a lot of darkness. And we feel, you know, like we really have always wanted to prepare students to honor the gifts that they have and take really seriously the calling to enter into this kind of work where, You know, I mean, it's so. It's so interesting what we do, guys. It's like we spend so much of our week in this kind of monastic way, like, in quiet, dark rooms, giving in secret and. But we, like, meet and make contact with the world in that place. And we're. You know, Nancy and I have conversations where we're just so passionate about helping students feel inspired and empowered and have the courage to do that. And my point actually is here, that RT as a theoretical framework, we all love it, but we also love that it sort of implicitly promotes virtue, these kind of virtues that it takes to do the work. Like, RT meaningfully informs what it means to do this work. And, you know, I know you guys talk about it all day. Like, this is your passion, too, Lance. I know with your supervisees. And this is why you guys do this, is to bring us together and connect us. But. But rt, like, it sort of draws out of us this kind of virtue that ultimately we're, like, thinking, you know, what if we had a grad school that sort of tried to embody this, that. And have that be the spirit of the whole program. So these things transcend RT as a model, and these are the things that we feel like we've inherited through RT and. And want to preserve and codify in academia and codify in an institution. So. Yeah. Yeah. So we're excited.

It's.

What's going on your brain.

Funny. I mean, I'm not. I'm not committing anything right now because I can't commit anything. I have a daughter in college right now. But, you know, I was talking to my wife. She knows I've been looking at grad school programs and trying to figure out what I want to do, because I am, you know, I am passionate about the integration piece. You know, my, My, my. My days have passed. Me to go do a Ph.D. that. That selled a long time ago, you know, once life got busy. And then I looked at DMFTs I've looked at demons, but for me, the most important piece is learning in a community that I am inspired by and that is practicing things that are important to me, you know, and being on. Being on the ground level of that. And you know, I was looking at your website earlier too, and all throughout this. It's not that expensive. 20 grand at least. Estimated kind of is not that expensive for a two year demon program, you know, so it's impressive.

I think it breaks down to like 800 bucks a month for two years or something like that if you break

it down, which is super exciting. Yeah. My wife's. Our day, we were talking, she's like, wait, you have interest in maybe going back even into the ministry world? I'm like, well, you know, you never know. I love the work that I do in my therapy office, but as part of my work, I love working with pastors and church organizations too, and integrating that and, and like your website says, I think from memory, clinical excellence, biblically grounded. Is that what it says?

Yeah.

Yeah. And I feel like that's what I, I feel like in, in the therapy world, you can get a lot of clinic, good clinicians and not the integration piece or you can get a lot of integration, not very good clinicians. And so I like that that's the, the intersection that you're aiming for, and I think that's really important. And I, Yeah, I'm just excited. Ever since you shared the story a few months ago, I was like, this is going to be just awesome. Not only for the community and Phoenix and other people, but I'm excited selfishly for the r. The RT community and the future and you guys being a hub or a hatchery, in your words, of so great. A lot of things. So, so I'll stop rambling. I think it's. I'm excited about it, Lance.

Yeah, I am too. I think there's so much promise here. And the stoke, like, I, you know, I live. I have a lot of stoke in me in general, but like, you know, the Ashers are, are. Are freaking amazing, man.

I'm.

I'm like, I, you know, just looking at the program, the dynamics, you have like a lot of RT components, but there's like clinical sexuality. There's. There's. There's a few other elements that are included in there which I think would be so powerful in a program. Um, yeah, so this is, this is great stuff, guys. Yeah. What do you.

Let me ask, what do you think are the challenges? Because I know, you know, a lot of grad. Schools, or a lot of schools have had to. Or seminaries have had to shut down or their numbers are greatly reduced. You know, I live in Dallas now. I have a friend who's a vice president at dts. And so we talk through this. DTS actually doing pretty well at the moment. And I'm just wondering, as you guys have navigated all of this, what do you think the biggest challenges are in, I don't know, running a graduate school program or that you see as potential challenges? And I know that's broad. I know there's a lot. But I'm just like, what? I don't know. How does a grad school stay afloat in this world? You know, what is that? What are the challenges you guys see, and how do you think about navigating those?

We've both worked. I mean, Nancy and I have both worked in a few different grad programs in Phoenix, so it's a really good question. There's probably a ton of different doors you could go into to answer the question. But.

But

actually, the door I'm going to go into is just from my experience teaching in, like I said, three different grad programs in Phoenix. But from the perspective of the student, you know, it's tough to create a quality graduate program where there's mentorship, where students can actually feel empowered and encouraged entering the field, because a lot of programs rely so heavily on adjunct faculty, just for example. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But when you don't really have necessarily a core that anchors the program, there can be a lack of continuity. And ultimately, it can leave students without mentorship, without the support they need to confidently enter the field. So the challenge there then being for the graduate school to how do we basically make a team that's really invested in our vision that we can. That we can pay to be core faculty to help us build something? I know that from my experience being in different programs, this has been a challenge, especially as programs scale out. But that's. That's one thing that comes to mind. There's. There's a ton of challenges, right? Probably, yeah.

Yeah. To be continued. Apparently, whatever challenge they have, it's like, door just opens up.

So, yeah, they're gonna be in D.C.

yeah. And that's. That's what I think gives us so much. Well, I know it gives us just so much confidence, because we would not be confident at all if we did not know that the Lord's hand has been in this. It really is everything. It's. It's just, you know, Richard Stearns wrote a book, Lead Like It Matters to God, I think it's called. So Richard Stearns was the director of World Vision, and he wrote this book, Lead Like It Matters to God. And that really the, the main premise of that book is that leadership is all about submission. And I think as, as long as we keep submitting ourselves to, you know, what, what the Lord has in mind, that's. That's where success lies for the believer. And so we, we are seeing a lot of programs fall apart and for various reasons. And it, it isn't lost on me in these moments, you know, where we're at as a nation, where we're at as far as mental health concerns. It isn't lost on me that the schools are, you know, kind of dropping like flies around us, but there are those that are, are not, you know, you mentioned DTS is doing pretty well. There's. There's a handful of other schools that are doing pretty well. And I think, as I've observed the landscape of various schools and what's going on in them, I think as long as we keep that forefront in front, you know, forefront that, hey, we're going to listen as well as we can and we're going to continue to step forward where the Lord is leading. I, I think everything. I know everything will be okay. However that looks.

Yeah, so, yeah, out of the ashers.

Out of the ashers.

I mean, Lance can probably speak to this more because he just finished a program. But I was thinking a couple things that you've already addressed that I think are huge in our environment. Our timing is, it's. It, you know, graduate school is not cheap, but that, that is a really affordable price for graduate school. Number one and two, I like the hybrid model that also includes intensive and working with people in person because I think one of the challenges, because I went to Fuller back in the day when you lived on campus full time or you were there, and one of the challenges in the ministry world is that you'd have people working in the context of ministry and then you'd pull them out of that for years and then try to get them back into that. And so I think the ability to, to teach students why they can still stay grounded in the context of their therapeutic and ministry work, but then also learn, I think is really critical, not just for the world we live in that, you know, is online a lot, but just in terms of, I think, a, a continuity of learning and training and practicing versus just yanking people out. So I don't know. I was Just thinking that's what I love about the program. I think it's affordable. I think that it's. That that model works really well. And I like that you are grounded in some kind of theory, too. That's important to both of you, that you're passionate about. And I'm biased there, obviously, but I think historically that RT community has been really concerned with going deep and doing good work and not just growing. And so I'm sure that ethos carries over into the work that you all are doing. And so that's one reason why I'm excited about it.

Yeah, I think it. I think it does thread that needle well, like that. Having a hybrid program that allows for you to stay in your context, but also be able to connect. I remember when I was in my DMFT program, it was so great because we had people all over the country that were connecting together, and we would talk about our different context and what was going on. And it was so great to be like, oh, my gosh, like, you're working in a school. And we had this one woman, she was, like, working in school, and, like, there was, like, a school shooting that happened there, and like, all these things that, like. Like, just, like, just miserable stuff that was going on all around her. And it just gave you a greater appreciation for what the therapy, what we offer as therapists, like, it's not just like, you know, like, someone that talks about their therapist, but, like, there. There's people that are out there that are making meaningful connection to people that are changing their lives so they don't go to these horrible, you know, places of doing horrible things and to themselves or to others. So, yeah, I'm excited for that hybrid idea and not pull them out of their context.

Yeah, that's an excellent point. You know, our. Our hope is that this can be a place where, if we're busy in ministry and, you know, counseling context already, that we can come to this cohort and be supported in our work and not. Not split from our work, but we can actually, you know, they'll go together. The kind of. Like my analogy. I have this analogy. I referred to it earlier, but I think in this work, oftentimes we can get into a place where we're water skiing and the skis start going in different directions, and we've got to figure out how to bring them back. And hopefully this will be an experience where you're not. You're not having to go in a different direction from what you're daily doing, and instead you're being Supported with a group of other people and learning about practically what you really need to be learning about.

So.

So it won't feel so insurmountable. I hope it's, you know, our hope is that it's. Yeah. Support system rather than, oh, no, now I have to go to school and totally change my mindset.

Right.

I. I want to see on the website a picture of. Where's my restoration therapy book? A picture of Michael sitting in his office reading an RT book. Reading the RT book. So good how you found them.

Yeah, this is exactly what it looked like. Yeah.

How has. And if you're not able to say, like, you guys, obviously, I'm sure you went and talked to the Hargraves about that, this RT and all that stuff. And I'm just curious, you know, they. Were they kind of blown away too, by all the open doors and everything that you guys were doing?

Yeah, I would. I think Sharon said she's cost. Cautiously optimistic because it is building a rocket ship. And so, so, yeah, so we'll. We haven't. This will be. Some of this will be news to them. We haven't told them about the whole legislation thing that's happened just within the last month.

Wow.

So. So that's going to be new news to them.

That's cool.

Yeah, they're, They're. They're always gonna be everyone's biggest cheerleaders and supportive, but they, they have an understandable. They have an understandable trepidation, I think, about academia and that maybe some of that has to just do with their. Their interest in other things at this point.

So, yeah, everybody's scared of the. The A word, the accreditation word. But, but that's what we're, you know, that's the monster. But doors are being opened there.

That's awesome.

Yeah. I'm nervous about CEUs, how to figure out how to do CEUS in my own state, so I can't imagine accreditation, so. Sorry, Lance, go ahead.

Yeah, so we have a lot of students that listen to this podcast. And, you know, I think about students that are, like, growing in the clinical world. Like, what is it like for you guys? Like, you guys have, like, you know, Nancy, you're. You used to be a teacher. I guess now you're. Now you're the. And Michael, you teach. So I think about, you know, when you think about students.

Right.

And you think about, like, encouragements to them and ways that you'd want to help to build them up or things you want to encourage for them, what are the big things that like, students really need support in like, what do you notice? Like, if you're like, if I could just really be real with you right now, this is what I really want to do.

Yeah, I, here's what comes to mind. I was talking to a prospective student yesterday. Yeah, yesterday. And this person was looking at different graduate schools and things like that. And they expressed this concern they have about entering into the field as a therapist that we hear a lot from students, which is fear around getting burnt out, fear around how am I going to, you know, how am I going to be able to do this, how am I going to work and do this in grad school? And all these sorts of really valid concerns. And that's something that comes up when we're with students is, you know, different, you know, all sorts of fears. We all know them because we had the same, same fears. So something Nancy and I talk a lot about that gets to your question, Lance, about how do we encourage students and tying it into this idea of like meeting the moment, the context of a country and a world that's increasingly hurting by every metric, the encouragement is something like this, this is something Nancy and I talk a lot about. Like, you are, if you're called into this, you, you actually have a gift. You actually have an incredible gift that you know, when you're in touch with that and when you're making contact with that, you're gonna have the energy and you're gonna have what it takes. Like you can do this. You know, when, when we're, when we're connected to calling, invocation and wow, I really have a gift here. Then, then out of that place we know, like, I can do it. I can do late nights, I can do long hours, I can do trade offs and sacrifices because I'm called to this. And we do, I know we, we try to encourage our students in that way by, by letting them know, you can do it, like, you can absolutely do this. But we also, just to tie it back to Asher, we really want that to be a spirit in our culture where we promote hard work, like for God's kingdom. Like, if you're called into this, let's, let's go to work. This world needs a lot, a lot of wise therapists right now and ministry leaders, like, more than we ever have, I think it's even safe to say. So. I don't, I, I, I don't know how that answers the question other than to say to spur each other on. Right. You can, you can do it, students, you can do it.

I mean, I like that idea of like, quit looking at the fear and start looking at the gift inside of you and how that operates in this broken world and what it offers to the world, that there's something great that when I look at you, and if we could just lean in instead of looking at the fears on the outside, to lean in and look at who God's creating on the inside with the gifts and the talents and abilities, there's something different that you offer that's good. How'd you answer that, Nance?

So, yeah, I mean, I, Michael, is referring to what, what I really believe is a pervasive problem when I talk to students as well. There's this, this spirit of fear. I mean, that's, that's a good way to, to say it, Lance. There's this fearfulness of. I, I don't know if I can see more than four clients a week because it's just, it's so much and I have to think about my self care and, and you know, I think personally, I think we've talked about self care too much and it's like a, it's just, you know, it's a little there that might make some people upset out there, but that's.

Nancy, get them.

It's, it's what we're seeing. So what we're seeing from students is that very thing is now they're, they're gifted and they're equipped and they're like holding back their, their gifting because they're like, I, I don't think I have what it takes to actually get out there and, and work hard. There's, for whatever reason, there's this real feeling of self protection almost. And so, so anyway, that is something that comes up. I know a lot of different instructors, professors, and for some reason that's just like a strongly held belief out there with young therapists. And one of the things that I think is holding our field back as well because again, we have this huge need and then we, we're trying to get more therapists, but they're like, yeah, I'll just, I can probably handle, you know, five to seven clients a week. So I don't know, it's just a peculiar thing. So that is one thing that I think, you know, is, is worthy to talk about. I think the, the pendulum has swung and so encouragement. So the other thing that, that I know Michael does really well and I think all of us on this screen, in fact, I know all of us on this screen and many therapists out there, we, we tend to be good encouragers. And that's, that is something we want Asher to be set apart in that way. Encouraging, exhorting, recognizing talents and whatever we can do to help those students, you know, remove barriers for them to really get out there and just do wonderful work that will help many. So, so, yeah, just, just being a place of encouragement, joy. We also also want it rigorous, so we are very, you know, well equipped to get out there. So. Yeah, that was a great question, Lance.

Yeah, I think that really touches that, that part. And just to encourage the person, you know, if you're a student and you're out there and I think a lot of times fear. I remember fear would. I was afraid I'd hurt somebody. I didn't have what it. I want to have the thing when the, when the question came up and I think that encouragement to lean inside one's heart and soul and, and see, I. Yeah, you guys are hitting it so right. And yeah, self care, smell care, whatever. Come on. Overrated.

Yeah, just a balance.

It's.

It's unbalanced. I think. So of course there's, there's a proof for that.

But yeah, yeah, I hope you hear our heart in that. It's, you know, these sorts of things go without saying. You know, taking care of yourself and having good boundaries, these are like the rules we have to learn before we enter into the field. There's a way that being on the ground with students as we are in the halls of graduate schools. I think our point here is sometimes there's an over indexing on that piece which misses hey, you're called into something. Look at this world, look at these schools, look at these neighborhoods. You have a gift and so to speak into that. To your point, Lance, I just think is important for us because if we think of what we do as vocation, it takes on a different. It takes on a different meaning. So I don't know. Do you want to say anything about that, Lance? Like how you encourage your supervisees because you have, you have students all the time.

I mean, mine is very much the same frame from you is, is helping them to see. You know, I, I always think about this idea of like, what's my role in the room? Like the therapist? Like, what am I just going to your idea of gift? Like, what am I called to right now? And, and lean into that. Nothing more and nothing less. I think that's this idea for us, like as, as the ones who get to help the helpers that, that we are helping them to access that thing inside of Them, you know, the Holy Spirit or what have you, and, and to just find that freedom from that place.

Yeah,

yeah. I mean, that, that, that's what goes on inside of me.

Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. I love that. The idea of like, you know, the role, I mean, just even the role of a teacher or a guide, an instructor, a trainer to, to help our students access that thing inside of them, I think is really nice.

Yeah, I, I was thinking about and actually be for. It'd be for another podcast because the self care piece is actually, I think, really important one. There's a, you know, there's a, there's a therapy practice as it looks on Instagram and TikTok, I think, to young therapists and actually as it is in, in, in like reality, you know, and I don't have students, but when I meet a lot of people and I talk about, you know, my ability to do good work, I know at my age how many clients I can see a day, you know, to do good work. But outside of that work in the room, like, I have a lot of other stuff that I'm doing and that I'm busy with and that's important to me. And I think about, if we're talking like theologically, I've been thinking a lot about Jesus words at the end of John 21 to Peter when he says, you know, come follow me, and basically you're going to be led to places you don't want to go, you know, and that part of following Jesus includes like just suffering and hardships. And following Jesus doesn't mean that it's like easy. Like there are some hard days and some hard times and, and to be faithful to that means things can get really hard sometimes.

Yeah.

And.

And you'll do greater things than me.

Yeah.

You know, you go on to do greater things as well, you know.

Yeah. And so I like that I, and when I meet with people, because I get people who contact me just about building practices and I say it's a lot of hard work, like people do, just not. People do not magically show up at your door because you're a therapist now. And then that's just the business side. Then there's all the ongoing work to try to be a good therapist, to keep doing good work. And it's, it's, it's a lot. And I know all of us on this episode, I mean, I don't know for sure, but I would, I give, I would guess a lot of us in our pain cycles are probably high achievers and performers, too, you know, and so trying to understand that my. My performing or my doing is coming out of this idea that I'm enough in God's eyes. I don't have to, like, keep doing things. Does it make sense?

Yeah.

Like, so I actually used a rocket ship metaphor in my office the other day about if you're burning clean fuel or, like, not. Not. Are not clean fuel, you know, because people like to think of themselves as performers or achievers. And I'm like, but. But how are you getting there? It's driven by not being enough and never good enough and perfectionism. Or is it coming from a place of I am enough, you know, and that when I'm. When I'm enough. Back to your point, Nancy. I mean, God just opens doors for us. All right, I'll stop rambling.

No, I think I love that.

So good.

So this morning, I was praying for our meeting, and I was thinking of you guys as, like, these mavericks like you guys are. You guys have, like, this character. And then all of a sudden, I had this song, and it hasn't left me in my head. It's this poet. I don't know if you guys have heard of him from, like. I looked it up just to make sure I was right. It's from 1968. His name's Steppenwolf. Have you heard of him?

The music.

Well, I mean, this song, I think fits. So I. I was gonna lean. I'm not gonna sing. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna quote the.

Just.

Just. Just as we're kind of getting ready for Asher. The Ashers to come in, you know, says, get your motor running Head out on the highway Lots of highways into Phoenix Guys looking for adventure Come on and whatever comes our way Whatever comes our way Guess we're on the door of Congress yeah, darlin, gonna make it happen Take the world in a love embrace Fire all your guns at once and explode into space Born to be wild Born to be wild I don't know. As I was like, hey, it's kind of fun, and I'm liking the feeling I'm under. So anyway, I don't know. This is me being cheesy.

A great song. Michael and I often just look at each other, sometimes with tears in our eyes. What a wild ride and we say, right? We're like, this is just wild.

Do y' all say that?

We do.

Okay. I'm not wrong in quoting this. This is like, okay.

No. That's the poetry of Stepping Steppenwolf.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're not wrong in quoting the poetry of Steppenwolf.

Okay.

Lance, Lance loves baseball, you know, and every baseball player has like a walk up song when they get ready to go to the mounds or not the mound to the, the, the batter's plate there at the home plate. And so what Lance is alluding to when he's a teacher at Asher guest speaking, he wants that song as his walk up song.

Done.

Okay.

Done.

Small request, guys. That's all.

We can make it happen.

Oh, man.

So great. We'll put, I mean, obviously I'm going to say the websites. I'll put it in the show notes, but it's just ashergraduateschool.com correct. And they can contact you, Nancy and Michael, from that website as well if people have questions. Awesome.

Yeah, Feel free to reach out if, you know, if there's again a, if you're interested in the program, you just want to learn more, we'll schedule a consultation and talk a little bit about it with you. But, but also, guys, if you're just interested in teaching, if you're interested in coming to guest lecture and just share your gifts to the program, if there's an area of emphasis that you specialize in, please reach out to us because we want to, we want to bring you in. So. Yeah. Thank you.

And there's no better place to go visit sometimes than the Phoenix area, so.

Yes, absolutely.

Especially now for spring training, baby.

Yeah. Well, it's been fun. We appreciate you too, and we're excited and I know there's way more details and stories that, you know, we, I know we'd love to hear at some point, so. So Lance and I will be rooting you on and look forward to catching up soon a little more. But talking about Asher graduate school and other things in your life because you got, you guys have a lot of other things going on too that we can dive into. So appreciate you joining us.

You guys are the best. Cheers.

Thank you. Your, your support really means so much to us and so, so thank you both for hearing this story and having us on and it, it truly means a lot. So we appreciate it. You're welcome.

Appreciate it. Thank you. See you guys.