Season 2 | Episode 63 | Special Guests, Jeff and Robin Reinke

Lance, what's up, man?

Brad, long time no see, my friend.

Long time no see. Hey, I know we have some great guests, so I won't, I won't belabor our banter here too long, but I do have a huge announcement. Can I give the announcement, Rhett?

I would love for you to give this very, very important announcement. Please hold on to your seats at home.

Yeah, you've heard it before, but we're excited in Texas because April 24th and 25th we're doing— I think it's our first, like, Texas RT gathering.

Wow.

And it's going to be in Austin. We're doing dinner Friday night in Austin, just kind of come as you are, and then we're doing a 7-hour CEU training with Dr. Eric, Eric Stalwin. Is going to teach on forgiveness using the RT model. And tickets are $50, which includes breakfast and snacks and stuff all day on Saturday. So that's a killer deal.

Great.

And we are hoping for us in Texas, just trying to gather people, and if we have 20 to 30, 40 people, that's going to be huge for us. Right now we've had 17 people sign up, and so Anyways, we're looking forward to that. We will put all the links in the show notes and it'll go out on Substack as well. So Texas people, show up.

Yeehaw.

And Lance, if you want to drive out, you're more than welcome. All right.

Do I have to talk Texan while I'm there?

No one talks that way.

Oh, they don't?

Oh.

A little bit. All right.

I don't want the stereotype. Dude, hey, can we talk about today's guest?

Got it.

Okay, so first off, I'm gonna tell you guys, these guys are super humble, so everything they say, everything you'll hear is— they, they are definitely God's chosen people. So we are gonna start off today by saying these are the beloved people, okay, um, that, that we are just super blessed. This is, um Like, if you were to poll San Diego, um, and talk about like people whose lives have been changed, um, by Restoration Therapy, and you're looking for the origin story, it's probably going to go back to this amazing couple. Um, they, they have poured their lives out for, um, helping marriages to be restored. Um, they, um, have shared their whole story with everybody. Um, and, um, I feel extremely blessed, uh, because I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Jeff and Robin. Um, so this is a couple that, um, I remember meeting with Jeff for the first time, um, and Jeff, um, very kindly offered me, uh, a pastoral counseling position at North Coast Calvary Chapel. Um, and, um, after that it was like gangbusters. We chatted, we, we speak the same language, um, of, uh, faith and, and healing of persons through therapy. Um, and then I get to meet his amazing wife Robin, uh, who would later become my business partner, um, at, um, the Restoration Therapy Center of SD. Um, and, um, we got to do some amazing things, uh, together. Sadly and happily, um, her daughter chose to have a child and this child made it so she— I don't know why, but I guess grandchildren are important and we have to go be with them.

So he's been promoted.

I got a promotion.

Yeah, she got, she got promoted. Um, so anyways, I'm super stoked to have Jeff and Robin here. Um, we, we love you guys. This is going to be certainly— I know this episode, um, for our listeners, um, we will definitely be talking about faith today. Amongst other things. But, um, this— these guys are legends, um, and I really want y'all to hear their story, how they came into RT, and, um, also some of the great things that they're up to, um, in this, um, new season of life. So Jeff and Robin, welcome!

Thank you, thank you.

You're too kind.

You're very kind, and it's— it brings great, amazing memories, our lives. God has brought us together 26 years ago. I don't remember.

It's been a while.

It's been a while. So yeah, thank you so much.

Pretty amazing.

It's an honor to be here. And we just love you both so much. We've been able to work with you both in different capacities at Pepperdine San Diego. And what, what a privilege. And we're— we love your podcast. We're honored to be on your amazing podcast, guys.

Very grateful. Thank you for having us. Appreciate it.

Lance, I thought you were gonna say you and Jeff speak the same language, which is like surf language.

Baseball would be baseball.

We do talk baseball.

Look, Detroit Tigers.

He played for the Detroit Tigers and he is on the USC, um, uh, like championship team, World Series, 3 years in a row.

I don't remember. That was such a long time ago, I can't recall.

We won't say what year it was.

That's right. Thank you for having us. It's great to be here. We're here to bless you guys.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Well, one of the things like I'm curious about, because Lance probably knows all the in and outs, how— like, tell us How did you come to Restoration Therapy? Like, how did this all— how'd this all start?

Right, great.

Do you want to go ahead and— you have, you have a better memory than I do.

Yeah, yeah, sure. I'd be honored. Um, well, I believe we met the Hargraves— it might have been around 2007 or 2008, I think. Does that sound right, Lance?

I think so.

Maybe.

Yeah, it could have been.

I think they did a talk down here, down in North County. Is that right?

Yeah, I think it was through, uh, Dr. Sharon May.

Yeah, Dr. Sharon May. We were, we had, we were involved a little bit in the EFT world. We had been trained by Dr. Susan Johnson.

We forgive them.

The Gottmans.

Yeah, then we got trained. So we got trained in EFT, and then we got trained in the Gottmans.

By them personally.

And you had been a, you had been a therapist for how many years at that time? You've been there many—

I, I started back in Boston, um, at the North Shore Community Mental Health Center before I even had my master's degree as a mental health counselor and had a caseload. And then when we married, which will be 37 years ago this year, by God's grace, um, I got my master's out here and became licensed and a little bit involved in ENT. And then when we met Sharon and Terry and the RT model, I mean, I've explained it to other therapists, seasoned therapists who have gotten to jump on the bandwagon, that it's what you're already doing, but it organizes and sequences and gives you 4 steps that are so critical for clients when they're triggered and, you know, just experiencing great trauma, to be able to boil it down and be able to emotionally regulate. And we know scripturally that word is to be at peace. And we all want to be at peace and be able to— and when we're at peace, we can connect.

Yeah.

And so we, we are so honored. We love Sharon and Terry, as I know you guys are, do too. And They're actually very dear friends. Sharon and I speak weekly, talking to her later today, and have traveled with them and been on vacations and know their kids and grandkids. And we're big fans. And how God has used this in through intensives, and Jeff has written material that he's included the 4 steps. And I think that's impacted over 10,000 people now. So we We feel very, very honored and privileged to have come upon this model, even for our lives personally when we were in crisis. God used it to heal us. So that's a little bit how we got involved.

That's crazy. So you trained under Sue Johnson and then the Gottmans and then under the Hargraves.

Yeah.

Isn't that crazy? They call themselves conference junkies.

Yeah, that's us. Well, everybody loves a conference. Everybody loves to come to San Diego to do training. They'll come and do the week-long, you know, externships, they'd call them. Every year they do an annual training. And so who doesn't want to come to San Diego in the winter in January? They'd all do them in January.

Yeah, it's, uh, I think it's, uh, we were on— so there's kind of a twofold purpose, is certainly her being an MFT, for probably 10 years. And then I had just, uh, got my master's in marriage family therapy, but I wasn't licensed because I became the, uh, the pastor, marriage and family pastor at North Coast Calvary Chapel at the time. So I was on my own journey and how, how to, how do we bring, how can we be more effective in the church world? So as you, you guys are operating in the therapy world, um, and I got, I went to Gordon-Conwell Seminary, so You know, I was more operating in the whole area of divinity, and then being the master of being, uh, the pastor for marriage and family therapy. I'm feeling so grateful that I was able to get my master's in marriage family therapy, but also on my own journey of discovering how can we help transform and heal people. Um, so that's kind of what the primary purpose and focus, but underneath that was Rob and I are still working on our own healing. You know, we had to go through our own journey of healing. So going through, whether it be emotional-focused therapy or the Gottmans, and getting all this information, I'm just so grateful. We, we have discovered that the RT model, we feel like, is the most healthy, holistic, integrated, Christ-centered process of putting off your old self and putting on the new self. So this is where we have discovered how the RT model— and not in any way to dismiss the other organ— you know, the other models, but I feel like this is probably the most transformative, holistic model of helping people not only to understand their own pain and understand their old self, but how do you put— how do you put that off and go through this amazing journey and process of, of then discovering your true identity in Jesus Christ? So the RT model has been powerful, and what we've been experiencing, you know, in the last 26 years. So transformational.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did it— like, the first time you heard, was it Terry talking about it?

I know I'm trying to remember when we were— the exact— because then later we, we went into our own, which we, we share very openly, our own marital crisis with pornography and then we utilized it.

Dr. Mark Laser. So that's a whole nother— yeah, we went through that process.

But I think, um, it probably was Sharon and Tara. I remember even meeting Lance at Dr. Sharon May's house, came as a student.

And, and the Hargraves were there.

Yeah, the Hargraves. And but, um, it's a confluence. But we— I think when it really— where the rubber really hit the road is when we were able to utilize it. We didn't just read about it or hear about it or get trained in it, but we actually— God used it to heal our own marriage. It was experiential learning, it was the most effective. And I feel like that has made us more effective in what we do. You know, we do the marriage intensives we've been doing. I think it's This is the 11th year, and we've done 4 a year the last 5 years. And I'm telling you, we have couples that come in that are in such high crisis. And only because we've experienced ourselves, we were able to go and experience the Hideaway with Rajean and Steve Trafton. I believe you've had them on too. And not yet.

Not yet. They're hard to get, man.

They're—

oh, they're always doing their lectures. But man, that's Steve. He's He's elusive.

That's great. But we were able to experience it ourselves and in our own healing and growth in our marriage. And then at the same time, they were training us, we were a little further along in our healing process. And so I'm, I'm just so thrilled that you guys are using this model. And I want everyone to be able to hear this and utilize it. And as I have told different directors of counseling centers, even in the San Diego area, that, that have numerous therapists underneath them. And what a great model. And I've even just— someone even said they kept a napkin when I did the Pain and Peace cycle, and then they went and got trained. And they got, you know, up at North Coast Church, they have 20 therapists, and they were asking them all to get trained. It, it's something that makes sense. It's its practical application for healing and the organizing and sequencing of the model just makes so much sense, whether you're a businessman, whether you're a businesswoman, whether you're a 10-year-old, you know, whoever you are, it's helpful.

And I feel so— I feel honored and blessed. Of course, when we met Lance, that Lance was kind of the pioneer of our relationship with the Hargraves, with Terry and Sharon. Of course, he was at Fuller. And so because I was the marriage and family pastor at North Coast Calvary Chapel, I created a counseling center. We created this assembly line with Terry up in Fuller, and so he started sending us his best students, graduate students, and then they would get their hours at North Coast Calvary Chapel. And then that, that's where it really opened the door where they created the Restoration Therapy Account Therapy Center. And it's just been— this is part of the story and the journey we've been on, and the impact, it's been amazing as we reflect on, you know, in the last, probably the last 26 years, um, you know, not only through the Restoration Therapy Center but through the, uh, the Relationship Resource Center as well, through Restoration Therapy Center, North Coast Calvary Chapel, how we're seeing God's grace in the work of the Spirit of this ripple effect of how many people's lives have been impacted. And here you guys are now, you know, doing this podcast, and it's gone— it's not just gone superstars. Yeah. And it's, it's not just Southern California, but how it's expanded and grown on a— not just nationally, but now we're personally, we're experiencing internationally where, since where my process has been bringing— I feel so honored of bringing the RT model into the church world.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And we should land— I, I want people to know a little bit about these things that you've done, Jeff. I know you're— you don't like to market yourself. I will do it for you. Um, uh, so Jeff has gone and created a lot of different materials, curriculum. He's like a curriculum, like, dude. Like, this guy, like, he's like, I'm gonna start off, I'm gonna create this curriculum. Actually, I'm gonna do part 2. I'm gonna do part 3. Hey, what if we applied it to this? What if we applied it that. Um, Jeff, he, he is a, uh, and, and it's all really cool stuff. You guys gotta check out, um, the Relationship Resource, um, is where you want to go. And some of you may have already heard of, um, curriculum called Men's Skills or Women's Skills or Marriage Skills. Um, those are the curriculum that's out there, um, that, that, um, has been really impactful in our community, um, where people can— it's kind of like, um, we call it like basically this, like a shotgun blast of healing, um, um, with inter— like they hit out, you know, it has a lot of restoration therapy elements throughout, but he also goes topically around like family of origin stuff, around trauma, around addiction, around sexuality. He hits a lot of the major pieces in the materials, um, Uh, so that's, that's one piece that he's created, and you got to check it out on the Relationship Resource. Another thing is, uh, Jeff's personal story, um, with his book, um, called Badly Broken, Deeply Loved. Um, for, for those of you that have clients, um, that, uh, that, you know, might feel like they're looking for a little bit more faith-based, um, stuff to apply to their healing process, I would definitely recommend picking up Jeff's personal story Um, and, you know, he, he integrates some really good teaching throughout by telling his own personal story and, um, integrating restoration therapy throughout. So, um, and, uh, the, the other— so that's just curriculum stuff with, with Jeff, um, that I would definitely recommend checking out. Uh, and, and, uh, you know, Jeff and Robin both together with the Relationship Resource, they do, um these, uh, marriage intensives called the Marriage Refuge, right?

No, Refuge Marriage Intensive, right?

Yes. Yeah. So, um, they, they've been doing those. They started off with a Hideaway, and then the Hideaway left us here.

Yes. I mean, we did that, you know, you did 4-year and we did 4-year out in, uh, Ramona with you and Andrew.

Yeah, we were cranking. Yeah, you're always doing intensives. So, um, but Jeff and Robin kept the intensives going out here, and we're so thankful for that. We, um, if you ever have a client that is really, really struggling in their marriage and they're like on their last ditch, I would definitely recommend, um, sending them to, um, The Refuge, specifically if you're in San Diego, because what they've done is pretty impressive. Um, the one thing I used to struggle with intensives is the follow-up. Right?

Yeah.

Like, you go to an intensive, it's amazing. You get this, like, mountaintop experience. But Terry talks about practice being really important. Yeah. And the one thing, the secret sauce that Jeff and Robin— and I think we have to give respect to, yes, um, Bev and Jose Medrano, um, they, they do excellent follow-up with the people that do, like, Bible studies, and they stay connected. So, like, the work is, like, really, um, honed inside of their hearts.

Yes.

Um, right, I just named a lot of things with hopes that you would be like, notes down so I can put them on the shirt.

I know, right?

Well, no, I kind of remember in the past too, weren't you doing like a huge like marriage conference? Yeah, in like Palm Springs or Palm Desert area.

Yeah, at the La Quinta Resort.

Yep.

So how many, 16 years? We, um, we were so privileged.

Yeah.

We'd get over 800 people, over 60 different churches represented, people from all over would come. And just a gathering. We've had the Hargraves, you know, as keynote speakers a number of times. And it's been incredible just to see— that was more of encouragement in your marriage. You didn't necessarily— weren't necessarily in crisis. And so much fun. And so we are, we are looking to pass the baton on that one. We've taken a break from it this year, but we, um, we would love to see that keep going. And we'd love to get the Mindful Marriage— we'd love to get the Deals, Ron and Nan Deal, out for the next one. But we're raising up a younger team to spearhead it, guys. So look out. I know you two don't have anything going on.

No, no more. Yeah, well, I think as a, as a pastor, how the terminology that I use is, is I'm just so grateful for you guys, how you are in this, in growing in your opportunity of training therapists nationally. And it's just encouraging to see the growth of more and more therapists who are really experiencing and being empowered to use the RT model. Yes. And how in my world is I have been using the RT model in discipleship, what I call love-based holistic discipleship. So, um, so in a sense, what we're focusing on is we need to, we need to be more effective of training, mentoring, and encouraging facilitators for the skills material. So we're in this process of also being more intentional on how can we have a higher sense of healthy relationships and accountability as well as mentoring. So I'm gonna— I'm just letting you know, I'm planting the seed. Love to have you guys as we're reflecting, possibly even in— we're looking at possibly in, uh, either September or October is, uh, is either we're gonna do it in Idyllwild, um, on the mountains, or we're gonna go back to, uh, La Quinta, and we're gonna invite all of our facilitators and we have over, we have over 100 facilitators, uh, that have been trained. But we really want to, we want to be more effective in mentoring, investing in them. So plan to see if you guys want to be part of our team of training and mentoring lay leaders, lay facilitators. Would love to have you do that.

You don't have anything going on? Yeah.

Oh, it's, it's fascinating. Lance, I don't know if you were on before we started when I was talking to them, but I think I don't know, it's not the first time I met you, but I remember being at your house in 2016, 2017. 10 years ago. Yeah, when you had me, you were hosting something at the church and I did a, an hour-long workshop on anxiety. Yes, yes, that's right. Yeah, and there were other, other workshops going on, and that was, I think, my first time like speaking at your church and then being at your house and It's, um, I think what I'm— I think what's in— as I'm listening, what's impressed upon me is just all the people that Lance and I get to talk to. It seems like everyone's first encounter with RT, something just— as Terry says, I think it just like catches you.

Yes.

Yeah, it just— something clicks. And it's really— I don't know, it's God's grace to hear everybody has got their hands into something. Yes. And doing like beautiful work in their communities. Yes. And its roots are RT, you know, and it expresses itself in different ways— therapy, ministry. Yes. Um, and I know Lance may have more details than me, but I know more recently even some of the Relate Strong material— DeeDee, I mean, that, that's been— yes, happening in Central America. Pastors are using it in other, other countries. And so It's really, it's really exciting to see that take off.

Yeah, it is. And next year we've been invited. We actually gotten— they planned it 2 years in advance, invited for February 2027 to speak in the Philippines to over 100 pastors and wives and leaders and kind of present, you know, the gospel and use RT. And so we're really excited about that. It's our daughter-in-law's parents that have the connections, and we're thrilled. I, I didn't realize the Philippines has 7,000 islands. Yeah, and, uh, it's an incredible community. Whoa, believers.

Yes, we're only going to 1,000 islands, right? Yeah, the, uh, the pastor, he's— he, he pastors a Filipino church up in, uh, Santa Clarita, and every other year he um, he was born and raised in the Philippines, and he is a coach, mentor, and a disciple for pastors in the Philippines. And so they— he's invited us, so we're really looking— we're looking forward to going out there. And he actually— they're, they're over 200, and they have 230. Oh, okay, it's growing, uh, pastors. And the challenge is, and they want us to bring the RT model and the skills material into their churches So, um, and that's again what you guys— what we're doing is how do we— how can we disciple, mentor, provide, um, training, um, as whether you're a therapist or whether you're a pastor, how can we provide this resource in order to bring transformation, healing personally as well as in marriages. So this is kind of the process we're all experiencing. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't— if we weren't experiencing the work of God.

That's one of the things I really love about you guys is that, you know, when, when you know the Rankes, it's like you're part of the family. Um, you guys are really family oriented. And, um, I was kind of thinking about this kind of for you guys, like when it comes to like restoration therapy and, and discipleship, you know, tell me like when you're going with a discipleship model of like restoration therapy, like tell me what that looks like, how, how you incorporate it. What is it? Yeah, help us to step into that because that's one of the things I really love about the two— I mean, one of the many things, but yeah.

Thanks, Lance. Yeah, honey, why don't you speak on that?

Uh, well, so, um, so practically, the, the curriculum— men's skills, women's skills, and marriage skills— it's a It's a 12-week program, and it's part of that— why is it 12 weeks? It's, it's the process. How do we take people from place what we call crisis, where they come, and understanding why is the skills material important is because being a therapist, there's only limited from my personal observation, there's only limited therapy in your community. And number two, there's only limited really effective therapy in a community. And so I— what we're experiencing, what I believe is the RT model and therapists are the most effective. And I think this is what we're seeing with, you know, with Lance and you as well as Robin, how the impact you guys are having at the Restoration Therapy Center and in Carlsbad as well as down in Kearney Mesa with Andrew, and in Texas. And then in Texas, you guys are— we wouldn't be here. Yeah. And it's not just our capacity of being a better marketer, it's really is we're walking into this amazing opportunity where people's lives are changing and being transformed. So we're, we're here to— as Jesus said, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. So for the skills material, so you can do 3 months with Men's Skills, and then I have another curriculum called Identity, and that's another 8 weeks. And then, and Lance, I remember Lance, you were in that group when I first created that. You joined me. You joined me in that first time I think I ever created. We walk people through that. And then I have called Renewing the Mind, which is another 6 weeks. But in every— although the material is we integrate the restoration model, yeah, the process of transformation is putting off your old self, which is the, you know, how do you feel and how do you cope, pain cycle, the pain cycle. And then how do you put off your, your new— how do you put on your new self, which is your peace cycle, is what is your truth, and then what are your new actions or fruitfulness. So walking people through First of all, the first chapter I talk about is, it's called Holistic. It's really the journey of transformation. What, what is God's goal? And then the second session is your identity, identifying who are you, how do you see yourself. And then the third is in family of origin. Now we've got to go deep, um, we really have to. Until you know your story, you're condemned to repeat your story. So this is the process, as you guys know as therapists, is You know, which I'm, you know, is the question is how many weeks does it take? And I know with Terry, how many weeks have you experienced as a therapist? Will you meet with an individual or with a couple before you see significant change or breakthroughs? Right. And, and so I'm, I'm just here to confirm and to affirm is how many people that I've met with in the counseling world, uh, in the church world, that they've spent thousands of thousands of dollars meeting with multiple, multiple therapists for years and there's been no change.

Kind of still spinning.

And they're just like— and I'm so, you know, I— so I would say, how much money have you spent? How many therapists? And what What I've experienced is just attending either through a life coach or a therapist or pastor, I'm seeing within 3 weeks major breakthroughs. The RT model. With the RT model. So, but having these breakthroughs is just the open door and the sense of coming to a place of awakening of, oh, I need now to, I need now to put off, I need to let go, I need to repent, I need to say no my life. And now how do I get out of my, you know, places of pain? How do I deal with, you know, issues of therapeutic issues, whether it be anxiety, fear, trauma? How do we walk them through that? Well, that's where the RT model is so impactful, is helping people walk through that journey.

Lance, I was thinking, um, now it makes a lot of sense listening to both of them talk why you're So in like the ministry integration world and also like the therapy world, you, you, you, because you spent all your time with them.

I know, and his wife, she's one of our mentors.

I turned over the ministry to, to Jennifer. So Jennifer, after doing this for 26 years, for 30 years actually, is Jennifer now oversees, uh, the, uh, oversees the Merton family. Counseling Center, his wife, and she manages, uh, so I'm really grateful for her. So there's again, that's seeing the Lord bring us together for multiple reasons.

Yes, it's pretty funny. Yeah, so the funny story about us is that, um, I worked— Robin and I worked together, and Jeff and Jennifer worked together. Yes, yes, so it's unique. They're, you know, we're— Robin and I are the therapist, and Jeff and Jennifer were the pastors.

Yes.

You know, um, and you know, it's pretty funny. I mean, the, the fire between Jeff and Jennifer is pretty legit. Like, they're intense when it comes— when it comes to, um, you will be healed, um, working with Jennifer or Jeff, it is like in the room.

Yes.

Um, you guys got to check out, by the way, We'll plug— I'll plug the podcast. I don't think I did yet.

Um, Free to Love.

Free to Love. Thank you. Um, you guys can see me like computing. Yeah, Free to Love. It's a great— I have clients that, that have really gotten into that podcast.

Yes.

Um, sorry, Rhett, I'm giving you so many things to put on the notes today.

I, you know, I was wondering when you're married, you got a therapist who's thinking this way and you got a pastor who's thinking this way, right? I was wondering, were you both like on the same page a lot in terms of how you saw things with the RT model, or did you find yourselves at different times coming from different, you know, perspectives?

And oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think for me it's been amazing just to see faith integrated and to see holistic healing. It's been such a privilege, but at times it does create some tension because there are such more restrictive boundaries with being a therapist. Oh yeah. And as being a pastor, it can be much more relational. Oh, let's go take this couple to dinner. Let's just go. And I can't— I— and then I can't say that they're my client, that I, you know. And so it's created for me personally, not for him as much, because he can— his, his boundaries are more open. He, he purposely didn't take the licensure exam even though he's had thousands of hours of experience. Because as you guys know, if we run into a client at the grocery store, we cannot approach them and say hello first, right? Because of ethical issues. Well, as a pastor, you have to be able to approach someone and say hello first. So you can see how it can create this And that's why, as we do the intensives, it is under the nonprofit. It is under— and even at the Hideaway, they had a nonprofit wing that we would have to be under in order for a licensed person and a non-licensed person to work together. But yes, it has created lots of opportunity, maybe, yeah, maybe they can— of us to work it through our relationship.

You should help us walk our own pain cycle.

Yeah, then I feel unsafe because he's wanting to— come on, what's the big deal?

I'm like, no, don't say that.

You can't mention that to him. No, I cannot do that. And, you know, so anyway, yes, it has created some opportunities of growth, which is fascinating.

Uh, you know, how many, how many therapists How many therapists have been doing the intensives, you know, from Atlanta and WindShape to, uh, Amarillo, um, and then also San Diego? I mean, I— do you know how many therapists have been doing these intensives for the last 15, 16 years? Probably, I'd say there's probably 30 or 40.

Oh, at least when we did the training, remember, it was 30-something.

Yeah, so it's got to be more than that now, maybe close to 50 to 60 years. Which is fascinating because we're of the— if there are 50 or 60 therapists that would do these, and which I— in my experiences after we've been doing this, I really believe, and I think research indicates, the restoration model is the one of the most, if not the most— I might be a little biased— is the most effective tool in the intensive world. Yes. And all the different people I've met from who've been in other different models and who've been through different places in the country I really believe the RT model has been the most effective. I do too. And, uh, but the irony is, uh, I, I'm the only— even though I do have my master's in marriage family therapy, I'm the only non-licensed of the 50 therapists. Let them in. They let me in. And we're the only married couple other than the Hargraves, but they're no longer—

they haven't been doing them for years. But we're the only married couple that we're aware of that are doing them as a team. And that can be a challenge and also very rich.

Yeah.

And I think a greater sense of rich challenge and a greater sense of authenticity for us to be very transparent and open with our own pain and helping people walk, I think, has been pretty powerful for us to walk in that place of brokenness and humility, you know. Yeah.

It was always hard to go do an intensive and then come back to your office the next week and do therapy. It felt Yes, it just— it felt not— I mean, I don't, I don't want to say it wasn't authentic, but it just felt like a disconnect a little bit. It could be in people's lives for 4 days, and then you kind of go back to your one-on-one, like, therapy minutes. Yeah, yeah. I think Lance and I are always kind of talking about, you know, the grass is always greener. There's days I think we both long to be back maybe in ministry, and then sometimes there's days we're like, no, we like being in the therapy world. And so It's— I like how you two both seem to bring those together.

Well, and I would say Lance, Lance is very pastoral. I mean, I think, yeah, some, some therapists are more clinical oriented, and I just—

he's both.

And I love he's both. And I'm just so grateful how many pastors, uh, that have been referred to him, that he has had such a great heart. That I just most recently, I did refer a pastor to him, and Robin does not want me to mention his name, which I won't.

Thank you, thank you.

But I'm just saying, uh, that got me all nervous, Jeff. But the opportunity, uh, that both of us, Lance and I, I think this is our passion, is where he has done so much therapy with, with pastors and leaders, where I have done, uh, discipled and skills, men's skills with pastors Yeah, for the last 3 years. So we, we have very similar— Lance and I have very similar, um, hearts, hearts, and to not only that, not only the therapeutic, therapeutic world, but also to care for and minister, pastor, and, and leaders, and go allow people go out of crisis to their character development and, and then their calling, figuring out what their, their purpose and calling is.

Yes. And I can't, um, I can't not say this. I, I have had the privilege, Lance, that we're coming on the 10-year anniversary. Yeah, can you believe it? Of the Restoration Therapy Center of San Diego, the very first Restoration Therapy Center in the country. And Lance has been— it's been such a privilege to work with you, and he is such a beautiful example how he treats his employees on the inside with such humility, love, respect, and honor and fun. I mean, he's not a mean, scary boss for people. He is so kind and fun. And there's just a holistic presence of, you know, I mean, look how humble Christ was. And I see that in you, Lance. And it's been such a privilege to work with you over this last decade. And I'm thrilled that you're carrying the baton. And that is growing, growing, growing. And then with you, Rhett, you know, we were able to do quite a bit up at Pepperdine. I think it was 3 years, 3 times a year that we were speaking at the leadership conferences that Sharon Hargrave and Terry would put together.

And what was our message?

We got the topic— everyone wanted the topic of pornography.

There's a lot of— it was like battling who could get—

who could do the one on pornography. We got to do it. Yeah. And, uh, no, but Rhett, you are in just an incredible therapist into the, the focus on anxiety. But I know you're a generalist too. You can treat anything. But what a privilege to see you. And when you mentioned earlier about family, I felt this morning an excitement like, like you're brothers, like we're, you know, brothers in the field that we were getting together. And it did feel like family coming together. And even as I've listened to some of your podcasts, which I absolutely love, I hear that that sense of connection is so strong, and people are drawn. And it's just beautiful. And I love how you're fostering that and getting the the word out. And I really believe, because just think of— I've been in the field so long. I was, I was 22 when I started back in Boston. I wasn't yet licensed, but I was working at a community mental health center. And I'm, I'm 62 now. Think of all the training. Whoa. All the training I've had through the years.

42, really?

No way.

I think I only look 61. I'm 62, but Um, but I really believe that restoration therapy is going to be one of the classic models presented in all grad schools, and I would really love to see that. Because even outside of our microcosm, I believe when I share with anybody, they, they just pick it right up. They say, oh my gosh, that's incredible, you know. So what you guys are doing is pioneering this, and I'm excited to see it presented at all grad schools someday as a classic model.

Yeah, me too.

Don't you agree?

Don't you think? Yeah, I remember Sharon— I agree— at WindShape last, maybe a year and a half ago, you know, she talked about the importance of growing deep and not just trying to grow wide. And I think— I can't speak for Lance, but I think, um, you know, the people we have on, and there's tons of people we haven't had on that we just don't know. I think there, there is a deep, a deep connection. Yes. And a deep-rootedness that started from the Hargraves, and obviously you, you two, and other people. And I mean, I talk to Lance probably every day, multiple times a day, or at least text. And a lot of the guests that come on too, I've, you know, fostered friendships with them too. So it is a really beautiful family. Yes. People want to take that message and spread it because it's changed all of our lives personally.

Yes.

You know, my, my wife and I have benefited from it greatly and, and transformed our marriage. And I was with Lance a few weeks ago in Sedona with the Hargraves. Yes, yes, the marriage work. And, you know, we came back and Um, I texted Sharon. I'm like, oh, I forgot my charts. Can you like take a picture of it? So she sent us a picture, but then she rolled them up and she sent them in the mail. Oh, so my wife and I are going to have them hanging up in our closet. And I was just so thankful, you know, that, you know, and we're only 20 years into marriage, almost 21, that, wow, that we can keep growing and keep working on things and we keep having this model that we can go back to.

Yeah.

And a community of people that we can do, like, life with. That's just— I probably take that for granted, you know?

Yeah, it's very rich. It's very rich. And it's, it's just— I, I think what I've noticed on your podcast too is the level of authenticity, and it's, um, it's just remarkable. It, it— there's something that draws people in. We're created for connection. We're created for connection to our Creator You know, it's all relational. Our relationship— when they ask Christ the greatest commandment, it was all relational: to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength, and then to love one another. And I think the RT model gives a practical application of the gospel on how, how do you do that? How do we love each other well? And It's, it's just so rich. When I, I want to listen to every single one of your podcasts because I've enjoyed them so immensely.

But, um, well, Robin, it says a lot that you've been practicing therapy for 40 years and you've trained under some of the best, and that you were like, this is the model, this is what works. I mean, and then Jeff, to do it from a different avenue and different perspective.

Yes.

For all these years. Yeah, that's a really powerful testimony to how life, how life-transforming Restoration Therapy is.

You know, just to share a little bit as I reflect on my own story, is in my own journey of, of, uh, of, I would say, pursuing my sense of purpose and operating in a world of performance orientation. This is kind of my upbringing, being a professional athlete. Being very intense and trying to prove myself is how when I became a Christian, then I went and got my master's in education. Then I got my— I went to Gordon-Conwell Seminary to get my master's in marriage, uh, in, um, Masters of Divinity. And then later on, I got my master's in marriage family therapy. And as I had all this information, I had all this education, I still— there was a lot of areas in my life that I was stuck. That I had not changed. So I realized that just information, as a traditional biblical, traditional model of discipleship in the church, has been information plus obedience equals frustration. And how so many people, how they, they, they gain information, they learn the Bible, they memorize scriptures, they go to church But there, as we're experiencing, there hasn't been a, there hasn't been a transformational breakthrough. People are still stuck in their pain, still struggling with addiction, still dealing with mental health issues, anxiety. And so for me, it wasn't until after I got all this education and, uh, and all that, by, by God's grace, I'm very grateful for my successes, uh, from an academic standpoint. I still was locked into a lot of unhealthy, destructive coping mechanisms in my life that impacted our marriage. So I'm sharing this with you for— it was— if it wasn't for the restoration model, where then I begin to practice and begin to implement the— my understanding my pain and processing how do I deal with my pain by implementing the truth and combating my lies with truth. I is— it's so fascinating. After years of, of my life, um, all this education, and still I was stuck. And understanding that, we know this is where a lot of people still are, you know. And, and how we know, uh, you know, Lance, you and I have met with so many pastors. We're so grateful of seeing pastors have major breakthroughs after they've been in the church world for, you know, for multiple years. And so again, I'm just here to reinforce the model of the Pain and Peace Cycle. The restoration model is not just— it isn't just understanding, having a system which helps to change the neural pathway of your brain, but it also then goes from your brain into your heart and how it changes the inner parts of your life and helps you to discover how much God loves you. So I'm just reinforcing the model.

That's good.

Yes, you can tell these guys are our spokespeople for Restoration Therapy if you ever needed one. Um, you know, I, I, I think— I don't know about you, Rhett— I like to almost lean in with Jeff and Robin for a minute, if it would be okay with our last amount of time. You do it. Um, because I feel like there's some messages that you guys have to share um, that maybe there's people that are listening to this episode today, um, and, you know, knowing, you know, you guys have like poured yourselves in, just like there's probably other people have poured themselves in. What would you want to say to our audience, um, that is listening today? If you could just like take a moment to talk to them, um, like you would, um, like what you, you know, when you were going through it all, like how would you what would, what would you want to say to them about kind of your healing process, or what even on your heart for helping them in their healing process?

Well, I think one of our greatest messages that we've experienced personally is hope. And at the marriage intensives, first of all, when I read some of those intakes, I think I don't even want to go to this. This This looks hard. This looks too hard. But by God's grace, there is hope. And out there right now listening, you may have people that are so stuck and they feel it can never change and they feel hopeless. And there's been affairs or trauma or whatever, loss, horrific losses. And I think before, if you had asked us even like We wouldn't have known what to do with marriages that were in such high crisis, honestly, years ago. I kind of stayed away from couples, couples there, to be honest. And now to see breakthroughs and the lights go on and people connected to their past and their pain and be able to move forward out of the lies and into the truth of whose they really are. And then when we're in that place, to be able then to reconnect to their spouse, or their son, or their daughter, or their coworker, or their roommate. I mean, it doesn't have— it's obviously not just for married people, it's for any relationship, that there is hope. Nothing is beyond God's grasp. And we see that often in the 11th hour, as you guys remember last night at the intensive, and a couple is still babbling or threatening to leave or whatever, that in, in God there is always hope if, if someone is willing to seek him first and invite him into those tender parts of their heart that are so broken and so in, in such deep pain, that there is hope and there is healing. And now, as you mentioned, we have the follow-up group. You know, again, kudos to our dear, dear friends, Bev and Jose Medrano. They're going on their 6th year of leading this weekly group on Tuesday nights. It's a Bible study. It's been skills groups. And these are couples who have been in the intensive that many therapists have worked with, and they blew out— they— it was not successful. And they are thriving. So great. And so there is hope wherever you're at today, wherever you're listening, that there is absolutely hope and that you can heal, heal enough to receive who, whose you are, and then to be able to connect. And so I, I think hope, giving all glory to God, really. I mean, we're just vessels, honestly. No false humility, truly only God can soften a hardened heart. And you guys know that no therapist can do that.

I've tried, man. I've gotten like the jackhammer out.

Yeah. Yeah.

Anything you want to— Yeah, I think the other word that comes to my mind is I would say community is what I— this is what I just want to reinforce what you guys are doing is one of the greater symptoms of our culture today is fear-based, creates a sense of isolation. And with a sense of isolation, it really does loneliness only reinforce fear, deception, cynicism, doubt. And so the importance of what I really enjoy what you're doing and, and through the RT model, which I think is very— I think it's extraordinarily unique in the therapeutic model— is creating community, a sacred community of caring for one another and realizing we're highly social, we're highly social creatures, that we're not going to— we cannot grow, we cannot experience a greater sense of love until we are willing to trust, willing to be in a community, whether it be confidentiality, whether it be in the therapy world, or whether it be in a small group of authenticity and safety. And so again, the whole model of understanding the violations of love is the essence of Christianity is love. And, you know, and then second, the second component of our virtue the resource we need is, is trustworthiness. And it's Robin's favorite verse, is from Galatians. I think it's Galatians 5, is it? It says 5:6. You want to share what that verse is? Which it just, it only reinforces what your restoration model—

yeah, the only thing that counts is faith being expressed through love.

So it's pretty remarkable. The only thing that matters is trust, trustworthiness, and love in God that creates and opens the doorway to becoming a more loving person.

So again, that's the question you asked in the skills classes. So tell them that question you asked.

So the— I asked this question at least every other week when I meet with these men or with these couples. The question I said is, are you more loving today than you were last week? Are you more loving today than you were 6 weeks ago? And then understanding, can you get— can you very— can you be very practical? Why are you more loving? If I was to ask your spouse, is he more loving or is she more loving? Um, you know, why? And, and so this is really the heart of the gospel, is the essence of God is love and not that we love God, but God loves us. And the RT model is all anchored in from, from a Christ-centered, uh, perspective on understanding we, we need love in a community and we need to build trust in a community.

Man, I'm so thankful for the love. I think it makes me think of the scripture, um, oh, that you— you know, we talk about their faith this week— oh, that you may increase and that we would decrease. Yes. Um, so I think that's the beauty of the discipleship model, is you're calling out Christ in me. Um, and I think that's one of the things that I'm so thankful for, your commitment to our community. Um, and that, you know, you guys have done so much, um, to healing of persons here. I think we are eternally thankful for what you, what you've done through the Lord. Um, and I'm so glad that God used you in our lives.

Great. So I'd really— Rob and I would like to participate with you guys to do a training session in the— in Kauai.

Okay, so we've been invited there.

We've been invited. We've invited to do intensive in Kauai. And so we're just all in the conversation with some people under a palapa, how we can then, uh, you know So just let us know if you're interested.

I'm interested. I'll let you know now.

Yeah, right then.

Yeah, Lance, I think it's really cool that you— well, Lance and I share the love of a favorite professor at Fuller who passed away years ago, Dr. Ray Anderson, and he was the only— really the only professor of theology who would go and speak to classes in the school of psychology to help them like integrate and It's, it's just remarkable that you kind of ended up your first internship in some ways, or job, up at a church, you know?

Yeah.

Being able to like hit the ground running, like integrating both the two worlds that you love. That's just cool. And I get to see it on screen here. I can like, oh, this is all connecting now. It all makes sense.

It's less of an anomaly.

Yeah, and we'll put all the— everything we've talked about, we'll put all the notes in, the links, so people can access this material. And if they don't mind, I'll put Robin and Jeff's email in the show notes too. So if you want to reach out and connect with them, we can do that as well.

Thank you for inviting us. We feel very— we're so blessed.

What you guys are doing, we are so amazed and honored to to be here, and what you guys are doing is transformational. I mean, it's, it's fantastic. You're doing such a remarkable job. Aren't you ranked like top in the top podcast in the country?

Oh man, we're taking over the nation, Robin. The world of therapy, we're after you.

Oh man, to God be the glory, right? To God be the glory.

Glory.

We'll keep in touch.

Amen. We love you, brothers.

You guys are amazing.

Love you too.

Cheers, guys. Take care.

Bye.