Season 2 | Episode 64 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Bryan Snead

Lance, what's up, man?

Rat, my man, how are you doing? It's been, um, a while actually.

Yeah, usually you and I talk almost every day or recording quite often, so we have a little bit of a break here, sort of.

Yeah, I feel like it's been forever. I mean, oh, it's good to see, like, my hair is growing out and that's crazy. Well, you look the same though.

Thank you, I'm working on it. Episode 63.

Wait, 63?

Yeah, I told everybody and Sharon then we're gonna try to have 100 episodes done before the summit, but I think we'll have 100 episodes done before the end of the year, so Um, it's pretty awesome.

Yeah, well, you know, when you get the mix of, uh, you know, Jennifer and Lorenzo flowing 5 episodes in one, one shoot, I mean, that helps out a lot.

Yeah, I told people it's easier when people are looking for interventions, it's easier to break them up into separate episodes.

Absolutely.

Someone had suggested that, hey, can you just break them up so if I know I need this intervention I can just go watch this like 10-minute clip. And we said, yeah, that's great. So yeah, um, we'll, we'll be doing more interventions here in the future, but I'm going to introduce our guest. It's cool with you?

Well, do we have announcements?

Oh, well, let me introduce our guest and then we can talk about announcements. Okay, well, you know what, you know, we're just riffing here. You and you do this, uh, your announcement first and then I'll bring our guest in.

Well, speaking of Summit, you, you brought it up We got the summit coming up in less than a year, guys. This is pretty exciting. Um, uh, we're, we're stoked to be at Pepperdine, um, on the first weekend of, um, March. It's March 5th through the 6th. Uh, mark your calendars, get your kids out of school, do whatever you got to do, get, get over to Pepperdine. It's gonna be awesome. We're really stoked for this, um, summit we're going to be doing, um, and You know, come hell or high water, man. It's gonna be amazing. That's a—

that's a—

trying to wax a little, um, Texan. Hell or high water.

We—

I think people are wondering why we're announcing a year out, but it's just a lot of work. We'll have some registration, early registration up hopefully soon.

Yep.

But it comes quickly, and I think a lot of people like to come out, bring their spouse, you know, or come with groups because hanging out in Malibu is pretty awesome. So And our goal, I think our cap size is 350 people potentially for this event. And we're hoping to fill that up and get registration rolling early. So stay tuned for details. There'll be a website up soon.

And it's going to be great.

DeeDee Meyer, thankfully, she's organizing all of this and stuff. And if you're interested in volunteering, at some point here soon, she will and some of the people will be announcing some ways to help with the boots on the ground. And then also wherever you're located, it now, just kind of helping on the back end. So stay tuned.

Yeah, I think it'll probably be an option when you register if you want to volunteer.

Yeah, for sure. All right, well, the guest we have today, I'm excited about. I've gotten to know him a little more over the last, I don't know, like 6 months or so, um, because he's a Texan and we do our monthly RT Zoom gathering. And he's got a great group of people. Um, Brian Sneed is the assistant director of counseling at Hill Country Bible Church. LPCE, LMFT. If you go to his webpage, which we'll put on the link, he's, he's pretty much studied it all and done it all. So we're excited to have him on. Welcome to the podcast, Brian.

Thank you. Thanks, guys. This is an interesting experience sitting, you know, on my screen. I'm between the two of you, so I'm like watching a tennis match as y'all are doing introductions.

And it's a little chaotic.

It is, it is, it is cool. It is. You I said this earlier, you guys make this look easy and, um, really a lot of fun, a lot of fun to listen to.

Well, I, I appreciate that. That's, that's nice to hear. It's, uh, we— I think the key is Lance and I actually enjoy doing it. So yes, and if we were trying to make it too professional, it probably would not go well. So we just— Lance is in California, which is 8:50 his time, just dropped his daughter at school. 10:50 our time, so we're kind of in different phases of the day, so it's fun to hang out. Um, so I was thinking about doing this announcement and just bringing Brian on the podcast because Brian's, uh, critical to this, but we are hosting in April— I should say Hill Country Bible Church is hosting, um, our Texas gathering, which is April 24th and 25th. It's a Friday night dinner and then an all-day Saturday training essentially with Dr. Eric Solwin on the topic of forgiveness. And literally, we couldn't pull this off without Brian and his counseling center's help. So Brian, you want to say anything about our event coming up and stuff on your end that you've been doing, or any thoughts you have?

You know, it's such— we're excited to do this. It's so interesting because, you know, Rhett, you have the little the little— you have the Texas group where we meet online and, and get to connect with RT therapists in Texas. And at some point you just threw out there, you know, we should do a get-together. And I think when you said that, Stacy, who is the director of our center, was not on the call at the time. And so I immediately texted her and I was like, hey, we're going to do an event here. And so she was on board and we We just are very excited to, to be a part of that and to be able to host that. And then as it's progressed, I mean, Eric was a— we'll talk about this, I'm sure, but Eric was a pretty instrumental part of how we got introduced to RT at all. So, I mean, we were looking forward to having him here and to, to do this process. And we're going to offer CEs. Yeah. It's gonna be fun.

Yeah, and y'all are talking about forgiveness, which to me, it's one of—

that's—

that was one of the biggest things that got me in. I mean, obviously, you know, the whole thing on like being self-regulated, but also having a way to talk through, um, how to recover, um, from, from pain made a big difference for me, um, like with, um, violations, uh, with the work of forgiveness.

So, right, right, that's awesome. When we did our— so as a team, we did our Level 1 training with Eric. And as we got toward the end, he was talking about some, some things that he had put together on forgiveness. And we were looking at the clock and we were like, well, it's fine. Let's just keep going. And he's like, no, we got to stop. And so we, we didn't get there. So really looking forward to— and of course, since then, it's been a little over a year. He's really done some work, so he is prepared to— he's putting something together I think that's going to be spectacular.

That's great, man. That's great. Yeah. So tell me, how did you get into this whole journey of restoration therapy? You kind of mentioned it a little bit, but like, what, what, what was like— what got you in and what hooked you? It's kind of like the big things we like to talk about.

Sure. Um, so For me personally, I, um, went back to school to get my master's degree and to become a counselor. Graduated from, from my master's program in 2017. Where'd you go? Texas State. Okay, Texas State University in San Marcos. And so, um, came out of that and came immediately to Hill Country as an intern, what at the time was called an associate, but now Texas has changed it to intern. Um, and, and But I mean, as you guys have mentioned, I've studied a lot of different modalities and I'm trained in EMDR, I'm trained in brain spotting, I'm trained in just a lot of different modalities that I— they're great, they're fantastic, they're wonderful. 2024. So here at Hill Country, we do a— 4 times a year we do an event that's open to counselors from anywhere. But we do an event, a 1-hour, we call a brown bag. You log in, you watch and you learn something.. And so we had Eric come in at the end of 2024, and I didn't know him. I didn't, I didn't know anything about him. But one of our, one of our counselors went to school, you know, he had been her professor. And so she was like, we should bring him in. Okay, why not? So we brought him in. I didn't know what he was going to talk about. And I, you know, I'm the one that does the technology stuff for the brown bag and puts all that together. And so I'm just doing all the technology side, not really invested in what's happening. And next thing I know, I'm completely ignoring what's happening on the technology side because he's talking about this love and trust and identity and safety. And like, as he's talking through this model, it's resonating with everything that I've learned.

Everything.

Yeah. And so, um, and again, Stacy wasn't there. I don't know what that is. She wasn't there. So I, I called her. Yeah, I know, right? So I called her soon as it was over and told her, this is, this is a thing. And so she got excited about it. She got to, to learn some things about it. We got excited about it. And then in the beginning, January-ish, February of 2025, we did our Level 1. Okay.

Yeah.

Nice.

That was, uh, last— so 2025. So you're, you're about a year and a month in. That's right. Of being an RT practitioner.

Yeah. And as you, as you know, most of our— I mean, we're— I think at this point, actually, all of our team is about to be, um, Level 2 trained.

Yeah, man, I've gotten a few— have a few of your team in my Level 2 trainings. Um, you guys got a good group there.

Pretty impressed. Yeah, we do. It is, it is impressive.

I, uh, sorry I bumped off earlier, guys. I apologize. I'm jumping back in. But one of the things I love about Um, you know, I've always been jealous that Lance has this like RT training center in San Diego. So now I feel like I'm like, oh, there's Hill Country Bible Church down Austin. There's all these great RT therapists. So I'm kind of, um, I'm, I'm like siphoning off all their energy that they're carrying for the state of Texas right now.

We are, we are latecomers to RT, but I mean, Hill Country, before I came here, was set up as a training center. And so the idea was that we would have, you know, interns that we would train and, and educate and help them become the best therapist they can be, and then they would leave. And, and we've had that happen, but we've also— it seems we got a lot of therapists that are— they're not leaving. They want to stay here, which is fine. It's great. We're still a training center. We still do trainings every week, and RT has become a big part of that.

That's awesome.

You guys train every week?

Every week.

What does that look like? The format?

What does that look like? So right now, actually, what we're doing is we are each like one person every week is sharing their Pain and Peace cycle. That's great. So we again, we've, we've embraced, we've drank the Kool-Aid. And so we're, we're all in. We're now doing Pain and Peace.

This is good Kool-Aid that doesn't kill people.

It's so delicious. It is really good. It's also really painful. So in my level 2, I told Stephanie, RT broke me. Like, I'm— I was a good therapist. I really was. I was a good therapist. I was effective. I was really good. And then I go through Level 1 with Eric, and I come away from that, and I just feel like I don't know what I'm doing. And I couldn't figure out how to make it work. And so I'm talking to Stephanie about this, and she's like, you know, you're still— I've watched your recordings. You're still— I'm like, whatever. No, I'm not. There's nothing. Something's not working. But through the Level 2, I will say a little advertisement for Level 2. Through the Level 2, there, there's some things that have developed that have come together that have, I think, helped me put dots together. Yeah, right. Because it felt like what I was trying to do was figure out how to incorporate RT into what I already do. Yeah. And there's some value to that, but, but it is now switched where those other things that I do are a part of RT, but RT is that more foundational piece. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think that's the beauty of RT is it's such a— it's an integratable model, not only with Faith but even, um, other models.

It—

especially when you make it the hinge, like, this is, this is the foundational thing I'm working from. So you can use a lot of interventions from other models, um, or, you know, different pieces, but you're— it kind of gives you such a great map to really keep on pushing your clients down the pathway and, you know, breaks us out of like just only doing insight work and helps us to really get that practice going. So, um, where are you in the current Level 2 training?

I just finished. Oh cool, like last, last week. Nice.

So you had, you had my teammates in there?

I did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Megan and Rose.

Megan and Rose.

Yeah. Yeah, they're awesome.

Who trained that? Stephanie. Stephanie. Okay. Awesome. She's great.

She did fantastic. I think she told us a couple of times, this is my first time doing this by myself. We're like, well, you're doing great. And she really did. She did a really good job. Put a lot of dots together for me.

Tell us a little bit about— I know In reading your bio, this is us just getting to know each other.

Yeah.

Rhett gets a lot more time with Bri at the— hopefully you don't mind if I call you Bri.

That's fine.

We're already deeply acquainted. You can start calling me Law if you want. But I'm curious because I see like you're into brain, like that's like a big part of your— like you're kind of talking beforehand about neuroscience. And I was curious, like, what are you liking about the dynamics of RT and how it connects with the, um, the, the neuroscience.

So, so I think to answer that question, I'll just say that prior to RT, where I tended to hinge my work therapeutically was on memory consolidation, which is, you know, just that neuroscience principle of, of how we learn, basically. But then also attachment theory. And I mean, I don't generally speak a whole lot to clients about attachment patterns, and this is your pattern, and this is their pattern, and that sort of thing. But I mean, when that cycle bumps into each other, right, we're bumping into each other. That's a big part of the work. And so those two pieces, again, see the frame, the map that RT creates that that gives you somewhere to go besides. Yeah. So, I mean, what I love about memory consolidation is what's his name? Well, so he didn't invent it. He didn't create it. Bruce. Bruce, he didn't invent it. We're on a first name basis. He didn't invent. Yeah, he just, he brought that, that research around the neuroscience into therapy. And that, you know, we have, we have what he calls a disconfirming experience. So we expect things to go one way, but then it actually goes this other direction. And so internally, there's this turmoil that we feel. That's that disconfirming experience. Well, that's fine. And in memory consolidation, it's like that is sufficient for learning. And okay, but in practice, what do you do with that? Where is that going to go? And what I appreciate about RT is that it's not just, this is the experience that you're having, just notice that and sit in that. But like, let's actually, let's practice that. Here's the 4 steps. Let's take the 4 steps and use that process that's happening. So then I've, you know, fairly recently, actually, I think I've started telling my clients about Malcolm Gladwell talks about you have to practice something 10,000 times. Yeah. And so I'll grab a board and I'll start drawing a circle of, you know, this is, this is where you've been most of your life. You are practicing it over and over and over again. And you don't have to think about practicing it 10,000 times because you already do. It's, this is the norm. And then here's the 4 steps. This is a different thing. And if you practiced it, 10 times a day, it'd take you 1,000 days, right, to get your 10,000 steps. So, like, what's the— we need to do the practice, we need to do the work, which is memory consolidation, just on purpose.

Yeah. And what's interesting, I think it's the research of— I think his name is like Anders Ericsson. He wrote the book, he wrote the book The book Peak, and he talks about those 10,000 hours too, right? And what he says, it's not just slop 10,000 hours, it's like quality practice, which I think is what RT strives for. It's 'cause some people we kind of know our 4 steps and they kind of like, yeah, yeah, I got it, I got it. And I think that's the idea of like intentionally like really practicing it in meaningful ways is important. Um, by the way, is that guy's name Bruce Ecker? That's it.

Yeah, Ecker. Yes, of course.

A little Googling while you're talking. He looks like his books are interesting, like Unlocking the Emotional Brain, things like that. Pretty fascinating.

Such a great book. I used that in my dissertation.

Oh, you did?

Yeah, Ecker Tysick.

Okay. Yep.

Yeah, it's interesting because I think, Brian, I think one of the things you're good at that I notice on our meetings, RT Zoom, because there's a lot of people who are new to RT or they're in training And they'll have questions and we're all there just to learn from each other and facilitate together. But I think you're good at helping people differentiate how RT is different from other models because you've actually practiced and experienced other models. Sure. And that's helpful to someone who's new, who's like, oh, this is— like, why is RT different? You know, and so for you, like, I guess I was thinking about what are the, like, the distinguishing characteristics of RT that you're like, okay, I like this other stuff, but this is what I think I'm going to hang my hat on. I mean, you've talked to— I know maybe the Pain and Peace Cycle, the 4 steps, how it brings everything together. But was there a moment for you that kind of like, ah, okay, besides that brown bag that you referred to, I'm thinking just even in the room or some other experience you had.

Yeah. Okay. So I'll pull the curtain back a little bit and I'll share a little bit about how I function. So I think— all right, I think in metaphors and stories and diagrams. And so I can't help but draw. You are an artist of magic. I draw all pictures for all the time. And so for years, probably since 2018, I've been trying to put together some kind of a map or diagram for how all of these different things that I do, how they fit together and how they work. And it's just, it's a complicated— I mean, I've done, you know, the, the hub and the spokes and the wheel and the triangle and the square and the rectangle and the hexagon and all of these different shapes to try to figure this stuff out. And, and What's interesting is with RT, once I started learning RT, that desire to have that kind of an understanding of how to put the pieces together, I don't worry about it. I don't worry about how to diagram it because everything fits into RT. And I don't mean that RT is, like, the ultimate solution for every problem that we have as human beings. I don't mean that. But what I do mean is that in terms of how I do this work as a therapist, everything has a place in RT. So if we're talking about, again, if we're talking about how the brain works, if we're talking about the autonomic response, if we're talking about polyvagal, if we're talking like all of those pieces fit into RT and make sense in RT where A lot of times you take one thing and you put it in and like there's some stuff that fits, but then there's something that starts to break. And I really haven't— other than me, I haven't found anything that breaks with RT.

Other than me.

Other than you.

Yeah.

Lance, this is like up your alley, all the polyvagal stuff too that you wrote about in your dissertation.

Yeah, polyvagal. He likes metaphors, storytelling.

Diagrams.

It's, it's all the— it's all, it's all my, uh, heart language.

Yeah, you'll have to take him out surfing when he shows up in Malibu next year.

Yeah, right. I don't know, I don't know. Last time I went surfing, I dislocated a rib, and so I don't know.

That's, that's impressive. You do break, huh?

I do. Yeah, I broke. Yeah.

Um, Is there, you know, one of the things too that we find really helpful with people is just thinking about like different interventions that people are using in their practice, in the room. And I'm curious, as you've, you know, you're in, you're in RT and you're also bringing all these other experience and other theories and stuff and models, is there any intervention that you really like right now or that you've been developing or practicing with clients?

Wow, that is, that is a question I should have been prepared for. And I was— I'm not prepared. So, so give me a, give me a second to put in some verbal filler while I, while I go through the— I mean, so a lot of what ends up happening in the room is, is spontaneous. There are, there are things that are fairly standard. I mean, it's— I have a— there's another chair in my office. And so I use that chair all the time. Roll the chair over and, you know, pretend that that person that you're frustrated about is sitting in that chair. What's that conversation going to look like? If you could say whatever you were going to say, what would, you know, what would that, what would that be like? So there's certainly the reparenting, which is like those things that are, they are very clearly articulated for RT. They're designed for RT or they're adapted for RT. But I mean, one of the things that I've done, pretty simple, but one of the things that I've done with clients for a long time is to have them hold sort of the scale of when that moment happened. Okay, let's talk about truth. You're uncovering truth, you're recognizing what's true, and you're pushing in on how do you know that's true? And as they begin to articulate how they know it's true, and it's not just that I think it's true, but I've feel some piece of that begins to feel true. There's also things that it just, it doesn't, it doesn't feel true. That yes, there's a part of me that believes, there's a little part of me as we talk about it, there's a little part of me that believes that I'm valuable. But also there's this other chunk of me that just really struggles to believe that I am valuable. And so I'll have them hold out their hands and I'll say, okay, over here, I want you to imagine, I want you to hold this idea that you are valuable. And then over here, I want you to hold this, this other feeling that you're not. You're holding both of them at the same time. What is that like? And just that experience to balance it out, which they're doing it internally, but the hand thing is just a metaphor for what is it like to try to hold both of those things at the same time? Because ultimately, when we're talking about memory consolidation, it's like one of them is overwriting the other one. And so let's overwrite in the right direction. So we had this balance. Like physically, you have them hands out, like, yeah, like, like you're, like you, you're holding something in each hand. What is it like to, what is it like to hold both of those at the same time?

I love that, that, yeah, Terry calls that a juxtaposition. Like you're, you have the, the two and you, and then that, that gives you permission as a therapist because now you can kind of put weight on either one like you can go up and not play patty cake with your client, but like, you know, literally engage them. Like, let's lean in on that you are valuable, you know.

Put pressure on it. Let's test it a little bit. Let's, yep.

It's so good.

Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes when we talk about interventions, we're always thinking like novel, it has to be new, but like there are tried and true interventions that we use every day, or that we use. Those are really important because sometimes we're always looking— I say we, but I think in just in general, as people, just like our clients, we're always looking for that thing, that magic thing that's going to fix it all. But the empty chair type interventions, stuff like that, just getting, like Terry says, people up off the couch, um, yeah, is critical. I, Brian, I, I like how you said, because I didn't actually think about this in that language, but now that you said it, I'm thinking about it a lot. When I came to RT, like, I kind of felt like a complete failure as a therapist. Like, for a long time I was like, I'm good in the room, like, I, I know how to be with people and other stuff. And Lance and I joke a little bit about— because my supervisor, um, at my training site at Fuller— not at Fuller, but when I was at Fuller, uh His specialty was psychodynamic therapy, which is a whole different type of therapy. So I feel like I kind of came to RT a little late, you know, at the time, 2010, and it just, it made me feel like I don't know what I'm doing anymore. Yeah. But then quickly you realize, oh, there's a new way to organize and be in the room and gave me a lot of confidence. But one of the challenges of being in the RT community too is watching other people work too, and I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm not a, I'm not a good therapist. Yeah. So it did kind of break me in some ways. And I think that's an experience a lot of people have and are wrestling with. And I just, I guess I always want to say that and name that, that that's okay. Like, we all bump up against that at times.

Well, so here's the thing. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. So thanks for saying it, Rhett, because I think it's good to know. And I, like, I wasn't aware, but I'm, but I'm in a team Right? We have a meeting every week, and we're sitting in a meeting. And finally, one of our counselors, after several weeks, one of our counselors, at some point, she said, you know, I just feel like I don't know what I'm doing anymore. And as she articulated what she was experiencing, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling that too. And then we looked around the room, and we're all like, yes. So she finally found words for it. And so we had this advantage that we were sitting in a room full of brand new RT therapists, and we're all struggling at the same time. With that same thing.

It's a, it's a thing. Yeah. And I think we talk about that on our, on our Zoom call quite a bit. There's a lot of anxiety sometimes that someone is a better therapist, or we're not, we're not doing enough to get up off the couch. And we're all come up against our own fears and anxiety. And I think it's helpful to talk through and realize this. I guess one of the things I love about the RT community is that it's a community that is interested in I call it craft and being better and better at what we're doing. And so there's this long trajectory of growth that over time, hopefully I get better and better, but I'll never be ultimately how I idealize myself wanting to show up in the room.

Yeah, I don't think.

Right.

Yeah.

We're on our, on our next, uh, podcast, we're gonna be interviewing, um, uh, Brad Stulberg. Is that how you say it? Yeah. And, uh, in his book, uh, The Way of Excellence, he talks about this journey that we all go through of like going from This is, you know, he's— he speaks about this idea of like you go from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence, and then, and then you, then you go to, um, uh, conscious competence, um, and then, then the ultimate goal of when you know you've arrived is when you're at, um, unconscious competence, where, where you don't even know what you're doing, but it's always, it's like in that frame because it's so part of you.

It just comes together. That 10,000 steps has landed.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. I know. And I, you know, like I, I've seen Lance work in the room and different things too. And so, you know, people are, there's a lot of gifted people in our community and I know we all bump up against that. And so I, you know, maybe that's something we should talk about more even in, in our communities and RT is like, You know, we are on this trajectory of growth over time, and we've never quite arrived, not yet. And that's okay, but like, there's nothing better than being a part of a community that wants you to grow and to challenge you to be better as a therapist.

Absolutely.

And it's such a new model too. I feel like it's kind of, it has this freshness to it. I remember when I was learning, like literally I had to learn with Terry. Which sounds amazing, and it was, but it was the worst experience ever because, you know, he knows what he's doing. And you would be in there, like, we would be practicing, Terry be watching us live, and we'd have to take a short break, um, while working with a client. And we walk in there and, um, Terry would be like, you guys don't know what you're doing, do you? We're Nope. Or, or, or, or we'd be like, yeah, I'm doing this. He's like, no, you're not. Hand them the pain and peace cycle. It has to be in their hands. They're like, oh, like you had to actually give them the sheet of paper that says I feels and copes? That's what we have to do? Yes, hand it to them when you go back in. Like, okay.

So yes, yeah, one of our counselors, um, I don't remember why, there was a technical issue or something, but she couldn't get a recording done. And so she— Terry actually watched a live session while she did this. And I'm like, that's amazing. And she said it was great, but also that's got to be terrifying.

It's just got to be. Yeah. And it just shows how I think gracious he is, him and Sharon, because when I did my level 2, I did level 1, level 2 with him. And level 1, I was in Pasadena. I traveled. And level 2, my final recording. It wasn't recording. I had to put my computer screen up behind me and he was watching me work with a couple in the room live. I mean, I say he's gracious because I think it was a disaster probably. You live and learn and he was very kind about here's some things to do better and stuff. There's nothing more nerve-wracking than someone watching you, especially who built the model, do therapy. Yeah. Oh, I'm getting anxiety talking about it.

Well, so something amazing happens in level 2 where you're watching your peers do their work. So at Texas State, we had a, we had a clinic that we actually would see clients at, and it was wired up so there's cameras in all the, the rooms. And so as a student, you could sit in this main room where there's monitors and you can pick whichever room and whichever person you want to watch them do a session. And that was nerve-wracking, but it became normal. We sort of acclimated to it. That was years ago. I haven't really had a recording of myself and anybody else watch it. And so that was hard. It was hard to do. It's hard to do that. And yet at the same time. Okay, so another metaphor. It reminds me of working with clients and we talk about— I didn't invent this metaphor, but it's just readily available. And that is that one of like that you and I as a client, we're going to walk down this hallway of doors. And as we go down this hallway, we come to a door and I'll say, what's in there? And you'll say, oh, let me show you. And, you know, that's my childhood and my birthdays and whatever. Great. What's in this door? This is when my grandmother made chocolate chip cookies. And that was— that was— oh, yeah, that's great. What's in this door? Nope, not showing you what's in that door. Right. That's a walled-off, sealed area. And so Part of our work as therapists is to help clients recognize what doors are closed and what's impacting them from the other side of that door. And then what's it like to open that door? And then what's it like to step to the threshold? And then what's it like to step across that threshold? What's it like to turn on the light? And what's fascinating is time after time you turn the light on, you look around, and it's not, it's not what you thought it was going to be, right? So RT, doing the recording and having it you know, having other people watch your recording. It's terrifying. And yet it is not what you think it's going to be because you get to the other side of it. And yes, there are things that you— every, every person in our cohort was like, well, this is not my best work. I didn't like the way this, this happened, and I didn't do this, and I did— I talked too much or whatever. And then as a group, we watched it and we're like, I don't know what you're talking about. It's not perfect, but the things that stood out to you as being awful, I didn't see that. And so there's something that's encouraging to step across that threshold and be seen by your peers and to know that, yeah, we are growing together. And that is one thing that I do really enjoy about RT is most of the other theories that I've studied, there's not a community like that. I mean, there are people who are total converts or total believers in their theory, but yeah, the support structures that RT is building I think are amazing for those of us that do this work.

Yeah. And one of the things that you mentioned, Brian, that you guys are doing as a team now is everyone's talking through their pain and peace cycle together. Like, I think that the, the beauty of this model is that when it comes home, right? And I just— I am so thankful, like, that part of your training incorporates people doing their own work. And I think that's such an important thing. And, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, and like, I'll tell you, restoration therapy, like, it broke me when I had to apply it to my life.

Yeah.

And I had to actually confront my horrible coping Yeah.

So I think, Lance, that's— there's a truth there that I didn't say that I think is important to say, that the reason it broke me and my ability to be a therapist is because with all the other theories, I can practice them in the room with a client but not practice them in my life. And with RT, I can't practice RT with my client. I've heard this on the podcast. It's like it's been said. I'm just— that is what happened is like I can't master this because I'm not— I have to live it in order to be able to master it. All the other theories I can be really good at but not have to embed them.

Right. Yeah. It's like I won't get into all this story because some people know already, but like, yeah, I mean, I've I came home from a marriage intensive, my first training ever at the Hideaway, sitting through a chair, and then I practiced it on my wife when I walked in, like when we had coffee that morning, and I stumbled my way through it, but it like changed our life. And you know, we have to work through our pain and peace cycle daily. Well, daily, I guess we probably do it daily even in our heads when we're not having conversations, but where I think we're both thinking about it, like it's like I can't get away from it either It's like once you see it, you can't unsee it. Yeah. So I have to choose to like work through it, my own stuff, you know, in the room. Like you said, with other, other models and therapies, I can kind of put away and close off like a book behind me or something. But, um, I want to ask you both, since you both are on, because, you know, one thing that's obvious is you both are in clinics with, you know, you— Brian, you said there's like 10 at Hill Country. Lance, you have, uh, how many right now?

Uh, well, I think I have 12.

Okay, that's okay. I won't put you on the spot, ask you to name them, but there's around 12. Um, and I'm by myself, you know. There's other therapists in the hallways. We're kind of in a non-group practice type thing, all individual. I don't know, I'm envious of that and I'm just curious what you guys, besides the obvious, what are the benefits of practicing in groups and being in a community like that or just having a community? If you're a therapist who's alone, what are the advantages of your RT to at least participating in a community? That's why I do the RT Zoom. That's why I do this stuff. I need to be with other people. As you guys run clinics, why you think it's so important maybe for people to have a community like this.

Well, you know what, I'll give a short answer, Lance, and then you can give the longer one, the technical one. Um, the short answer is that, Rhett, this job, as you know, is really hard. Yeah. And, um, we're not meant to do anything alone. We're certainly this is not a career that you can do alone. Not that people can't office by themselves, they certainly can. But you, you got to have people who you can connect with that can, that can speak truth to you, that, that help to fill in those gaps.

Hmm. Yeah. I love that answer. I think that's so true. I think we, um, can— like, when— like, we, we're not meant to be alone, you know. It's even in our, our, you know, stuff with RT, if one of the areas of safety. So I think having camaraderie makes a huge difference now that we're together. And, you know, I think when it comes to—

I—

the, the benefits of the practice is, you know, we consult with cases all the time. You know, we're always chatting through stuff like in between sessions. I think it's great. One of the things I think, like, let's say you're afraid of having someone watch you do therapy in a video setting. I think another great thing to do is just do co-therapy. Um, and I think that's one of the gifts of, um, you know, having a group practice is you, you can engage with group therapy or co-therapy, um, working through, um, things with a client. Together, um, and really brings you out. That's probably one of the things that changed the way I, the way I do therapy is sitting alongside someone, watching them do work, and then like, oh, kind of like what Brian's talking about, you know, I like— you hold your voice really well there, you know. Like, you know, they would slow it down and they'd ask that magical question that unlocks the client. The client's like weeping, you're That was cool.

How'd you do that?

Um, so I think that having— working alongside someone, uh, makes a big difference. And, um, you know, just being able to consult. I mean, we, we have difficult cases like Brian's saying, and, you know, there's, there's times where, you know, uh, you know, suicide's on the line. You have, um, you know, difficult, horrible marriages or abuse cases. And to have a, to have a buddy or a friend, you You know, uh, you know, it makes a big difference. I mean, there's nothing like—

we—

this last week, um, we, we did exchange a few text messages. And, you know, when, when Tanner sent that text message about, um, to, to, to Rhett and I this last weekend about, um, something difficult that happened for him, it was like— I felt like it was like this camaraderie we had of like, yes, this is tough work and I'm glad we get to do it together. And dang, Oh, that's hard. So we won't go into detail.

What was— yeah, I, I guess it's my— I, I want to hear from you guys because I think it's for people listening, it's part of my encouragement that whether you're officing alone or whatever, that it's important to reach out and be a part of some communities. You know, I'm obviously going to push people to be involved in some RT stuff, but there's other— and there's other networking groups locally to be a part of and It is— it's pretty isolating work at times, even especially if— even if you're in a group practice, it can be isolating. And so I just kind of wanted people to listen to that and encourage people that there are opportunities to get involved and to not be alone and to grow. And clearly, like, I just— when I think about Lance, I think about that community he has there of therapists, many of them I know. And then, and then at Hill Country Bible Church, I think about the work you guys are doing down there and It's cool. It's cool that you guys train every week, you know, it's training that you grow together. And I think that's what just keeps us sharp as therapists.

Yeah. Yeah. Hearing from each other, learning from each other, being supported by each other. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it doesn't mean you, you know, every— I think it's important that we have people who are— you're in private practice and you're doing your own, and that's, that's fantastic, and that's beautiful, and you're reaching a certain population and you're doing good work. You still— I mean, you know a therapist that you can have coffee with, you're— that's, that's an opportunity to begin building a community of regular— let's get together on a regular basis and, and help support each other, right? Iron sharpens iron.

Yeah, I guarantee you today there's going to be a client with both their hands open like this in my practice, and we're going to be talking about, you know, their pain word and their, and their peace word. I guarantee you, because Brian, Brian talked about it, now it's in my mind. So I think talking about therapy actually increases your engagement of doing better therapy too.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

What do you, um, it's interesting because I think we've all at different times worked at churches in certain roles and functions, and then Brian, you're at Hill Country Bible Church Lance, you've done church stuff before. I have worked with a lot of pastors and ministry leaders, people in the community, faith community. Brian, if you're able to speak on it, I mean, what do you think are the unique advantages and also challenges of just being like embedded in a kind of a church community counseling practice?

Man, that's a hard question to answer, I think, because Hill Country is quite unique as I understand it, right? So it's the only church-based counseling center that I've ever been in. But I've had conversations with people who are like, wait, it's open to the community, and you don't have to be a church member, and you don't have to be a believer, and all of those things. It's like, we are open to the community, we're all licensed. So there's things that are unique about that, about this center. But I think one of the things that's complicated is Like, Lance, you've got, you've got a center and you've got a group of people. That group of people that work for you and the clients that come to see you, it's, it's possible that y'all aren't all— there's my texting showing up— y'all aren't all meeting in the same place on Sunday, right? Your, your counselors and your client pool And in this case, in our case, there's a good chance that you're going to see clients on Sunday and possibly other places too. And so it just makes it a little sticky. It makes it a little difficult to navigate, but it's, it's doable. It's absolutely doable to be able to do this work and to just— you have to navigate those relationships.

It literally is navigating. I mean, So my wife runs the counseling center at, um, Archer, so we have a very similar setup. And like, literally, like, when you sit down at church, you have to be mindful about where you sit, how you sit. It's, you know, um, developing the secret language with your spouse. So like, yeah, oh, you're gonna go to— you're doing a Bible study with that person? Okay, how do you guys deal with that?

Yeah, well, yeah, it is. That's, that's a great question. And I think, like, for my wife and I, I mean, she, she knows, she knows how this works. And so people will come up to her and say, hey, I'm seeing your husband. And she'll be like, hmm. And she won't tell me that. She won't come to me and say it. And it's just, it's just not, it's just not a thing. We just can't go there. And we can't engage in those types of conversations. Yeah, you know, be friendly but also make it clear that's a, that's a different thing, different relationship.

Yeah, I usually, I just don't, which is awkward for me because I'm a pretty friendly person, but I, you know, I kind of have this understanding that if I don't introduce you to somebody, there's a reason why, potentially, without breaking any confidentiality of why that is. But there's just some people I just don't go towards. And so, you know, usually what happens though most often is that person will break their own confidentiality and introduce themselves to my wife. Like almost, you know, I was sitting in a coffee shop the other day with a local pastor who I was meeting for the first time, and a client walked into the door and started talking to me, and she just finally just introduced herself to the pastor. Like, okay, You know, and so I'm like, you know, you just kind of have to like navigate and feel your way around this sometimes. Um, I think Lance and I sometimes talk about, you know, where's the grass greener? Sometimes we miss ministry days where you're kind of doing life with people and the boundaries are a little bit different. And then, and then we also like the therapy where the boundaries are really clear about some ways. And so it's when you're, when you're blending these two worlds Yeah.

Well, so in our informed consent, we talk about, you know, when we see each other, not if, but when we see each other out in public, out in other spaces. And here's how that— don't think I'm being rude because I'm not going to, you know, make a big deal out of acknowledging you. And if you want to come over and say hello to me, my family knows they just turn around and walk away. They like, they just assume that this is a private conversation. They'll turn around and walk away. But I also tell my clients like, Don't engage. We're in public, we're not in session. So don't engage in a private conversation while we're standing in the middle of the grocery store. Right. And those kinds of conversations are helpful. Because it's sort of, again, it helps because most people don't live in the boundary that we do. Right. We value that confidentiality. And we try to explain that, but they don't necessarily— our clients aren't necessarily thinking that way. How often have your clients said, oh, I'm an open book, it doesn't really matter. You can And we're like, okay, thanks, but no, good for you. I'm not. And, but it turns out after they get to know you for 6 weeks and they've told you some pretty, pretty deep things, the locked door, even though that felt true when I said it, now that we're here, I realize, you know, things about me that I don't want you to tell anybody else. Yeah, I know. I know. That's why we have this, these rules.

Yeah, sacred space, man. It's, uh, it's such a gift of being able to engage in that world with, with our clients, and that allows them to open up that locked-up door that they don't want to talk about.

That's right. Is there any, um, you know, one of the beautiful things about the model too is just like theological integration. You know, and I was— I'm not going to assume just because you're at a church that necessarily comes up more often than other places, but like, is there any, um, integration pieces, passages, stories, metaphors, like spiritual stuff for you that, Brian, you've been pondering a lot or thinking about, or you found helpful to your work as you, you know, are in RT?

So probably 20% of my clients at Hill Country are not— they're not church people. And so that sort of, I think, speaks to part of what you're saying is that there's a good chunk of them that are church people, right? They're members of this church or of another church. And so one of the things that I actually picked up from a previous episode of the podcast, and I don't remember who brought it up, but the Beloved Charter, that idea, I mean, I've encapsulated and brought that together. So there's what I provide to clients is here's a list of passages, and I want you to go through these passages and mark and circle words of things that resonate with you as you read about these things about what God, how God sees you. And how, how God views you, what he says is true about you. And that's been, that's been a really helpful, um, tool to help people recognize truth that is, that is, that's bigger truth. Even when it doesn't feel true, it's still— there's something I can hold on to there. Does that answer your question, Red, or speak to your question?

Yeah, no, it sounds like that's a tool that's helpful for you. And I was, you know, I was just thinking about, um, yeah, how we as therapists think about integration pieces, you know, what kind of tools we use. Or, you know, we talk a lot about the old self and new self a lot of times in RT and stuff. And so that does help. It made me also think about— be helpful at some point. I'm sure Lance is working on this, that we had all these combined of all the worksheets and different things that people were using and tools so we can consolidate some material and download that stuff and use that stuff, right, Lance?

There, there might be a Google document of Google documents, a Google folder that, that is, uh, where I have a budget of, um, different things we've been playing with. So yeah, that's, it's, uh, you know, we'll hopefully— we're working on a few things, so we'll, we'll see. There's, uh, you know, I, I don't know exactly the format it's going to be delivered in, so Um, but we're excited for that.

Yeah, I was thinking about—

go ahead.

I was thinking about this idea, like, of, um, uh, that scripture of lean not on your own understanding in Proverbs. Um, and I, I was kind of meditating on this the other day, like, where it says, like, lean not on your understanding, you know, trust the Lord with all your heart, your soul, and your strength, and he will make your path straight. And I think that lean not on your own understanding is this, like, our penchant to lean into our pain cycles is so, like, like, our understanding is our intellectualizing, our need for control, and all of these things. Um, so I've been kind of— this is my own personal life stuff that's going on, um, of like, man, I, I lean on my own understanding way too often, and, and I really As I trust in the Lord and I lean into that, you know, what he's saying, that unconscious competence comes out, I think, for me as a therapist and as a husband, as a father, you know, and even as a dog owner.

I saw you muting the mic earlier as you were whistling or yelling at your dog.

I know. Yeah, yeah, it was a moment. She likes to hang out here.

Hey, we got about 5 minutes left, and I was just kind of to tease our event coming up, Brian, since you're on here, you know, one of the things that we landed on was having Eric teach about the topic of forgiveness, you know, and, you know, there's a lot of things we could teach on, he could talk about. I just kind of wanted to hear from your own perspective maybe why we thought that was important, you know, or any thoughts that you have about that coming up and about that day and why that's such an important topic for people, you know, to come be a part of.

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, forgiveness is— well, so when we did our Level 1 training with Eric, as we got towards the end of that training, he started sort of teasing some things that he'd been working on and thinking about around forgiveness. And we really wanted him to keep going, but we had to stop. And so since then, he's done more of that work. And I think he's invested a significant amount of energy and effort into something that is— I mean, yeah, the pain cycle, when we get stuck in our pain cycle, it happens. It happens, and then we cope. And in that cope, we are— I feel validated. I feel justified. I feel Like, I mean, how else would you respond when somebody says that or does that to you? Right? I mean, how else am I supposed to respond to that? And so we just— we— but of course, of course, I'm going to cope. Of course, I'm going to blame. Of course, I'm going to take control. Of course, I'm going to run away, right? Like, of course. And so as long as we're in that space where we can verify and validate our response, we're going to hold on to that. Forgiveness steps into the middle of that and goes, you know, there's something that gets messed up there that we have to acknowledge, that what we're doing is causing harm for someone else, and that what they're doing is causing harm for us. And we need to do something with that. We need— if we're going to reconcile, right, we talk in therapy, we talk a lot about that, that to have a deep, meaningful relationship with someone, you have to have rupture. If you never have any disagreements, if the two of you never had a differing opinion about what you would have for lunch or whatever, then somebody's giving up all the time. Yeah. And you need a little bit of that disconnection because that's how you can trust that we're actually in this together. Because whatever we're coming up against, we're doing this together. That's forgiveness is right there in the core of that. And if we don't do forgiveness, if we don't step into forgiveness, if we don't understand how to do it, then we, we let the rupture take over and become the relationship. Yeah.

So how's that?

Yeah.

And it, uh, you know, in the last month or so, we've walked through some stuff just in the RT community of like colleagues and friends of us, and like we can all get tied up in our own pain. And you think as therapists we're above it and we're okay, But we're not. And so for the relationships to grow and for us to be better, we, we had— we have to dig into that stuff and work through it. And I think if you're going to have a community of people like RT who hope to be around a long time and work together a long time and build together and grow together, you're going to have rupture. And then we're going to have to use the tools that we're teaching clients to work your way through it. Come on, there's that circle. We're just It's back.

Keep practicing. Yeah, I just love that idea. I mean, the beauty of forgiveness is like, it's like what you're saying, Brian. It's like our coping does not create forgiveness. Like, it— we think it does by expressing our anger or what have you, but that thing that creates forgiveness is restoring that love and trustworthiness. And that's the gift of what we have with Restoration Therapy, is there is a way. To be whole again.

Yeah. Well, we'll end there today, guys. And Brian, I'll put all your information, website stuff, links that we've talked about in the show notes. And, um, as long as you don't mind, I'll put your email in the notes too, and people can contact you if they have any questions. And I know, you know, all of us in Texas especially are looking forward to coming down in April to Gather Together. It's gonna be a fun time. And I think God's doing some cool stuff in our community, um, not just RT big, but even in Texas, which I think is significant. So I appreciate you stepping up and, um, telling Stacy this is what we're going to be doing.

We love Stacy.

Yes. Yeah, she, she is very excited. We are, we are very excited as a team. We're very excited to, to invite and And I know you guys have said this before, right? You've said this before, but I'll just say it as well. It's like, if you're not a therapist in Texas, um, you're still invited. You're still invited to, to come do this thing. Um, the CEs may or may not apply to you, that, you know, your mileage may vary where that applies, where that is, but, but the learning is going to be invaluable. So, and the community, yeah, come join the Mexican food on Friday night.

It's only $50.

Come on. Yeah, that's right. Can't beat that, man. That's right. Cannot beat that. That's like one trip to Chick-fil-A with your kids. All right, I'll end this there before I take us down a different path. It's good seeing you, Brian. Good seeing you, Lance. Thanks, Brian. Cheers.

Bye.