Season 2 | Episode 65 | New York Times Best Selling Author, Brad Stulberg

Lance, what's up, man?

Dude, I'm so excited. I love intros for before you hear the podcast.

Yeah, we don't usually do intros, but we thought we would do a little intro because we had a very special guest on. Not that, you know, all of you are special. Yes, not all of you are New York Times bestseller special.

Come on, what did you just say?

We had Brad Stolberg, New York Times bestseller author. Newest book, Way of Excellence, as Lance is holding up right now in his hands. And we just thought we would do a little intro about the episode and point out a couple of things— why we like the book, why we had him on, etc. Yeah, I—

you turned me on to this book. You know, he's got— he quotes like some like of the people that we like, you know, Byung-Chul Han.

Yes. Philosopher.

He quotes this like very amazing philosopher that we, you and I both dig.

And yeah, yeah, I say South Korean-born German philosopher. Yeah, yeah. And he, I always say, and I said this to Brad in the episode, one of the things I appreciate about his writing is he's reading all the people that I admire and the deeper works And then I feel like he synthesizes it and distills it into really easy-to-read material that makes it just accessible to everybody. And his first, I don't know if, I think it's his first book that he co-wrote with Steve Magnus, Peak Performance in 2017. When I first read that, I had started underlining things in the book and highlighting, oh, restoration therapy, restoration therapy. And I wrote that in other books of his. As well, like the practice of groundedness. Because there are concepts around how we change as people, transformation. He doesn't use the language of old self, new self, or pain and peace, but there's this process that I resonate with and that we resonate as RT therapists.

Yeah, yeah, I really dig him. I mean, I feel like, you know, one of the things that Terry's been talking to us about, like when we talk about the way, like the Disciple Way, is this idea around virtues. Um, and not only as a, as a therapist, like, but even for our clients. So I like that this book works both sides of the arena. Like, as a therapist, I was really challenged in thinking through my virtues. Um, this, you know, there's so many great, uh, pieces in here. I've been quoting it throughout, um, my time with my clients. Um, uh, but, you know, the arrival fallacy that once I have blank, I'm gonna be there—

no.

That we got to think through more about the, the journey of excellence. And, um, yeah, so I, I'm really stoked. I really want to recommend everyone, um, get the book and, you know, break out— he's— this guy is super quotable. You're going to love this interview.

Yeah, I wish we had had more time with him, and we probably could have gone a little bit longer, but you and I were up against the hour, our therapy hour. Um, he was super humble and genuine, and I, I texted a friend afterwards and I'm like, You know when you meet people you admire and sometimes it could be like disappointing, like you have this image. I texted a couple friends, I'm like, oh, Brad was everything that I kind of had imagined and hoped him to be, and which is super helpful. Before we go though, were there a couple of like, so my book is actually in my home office, or not my home, my work office, as are his other books. And I think you hit the nail on the head. I pull that book off the shelf a lot actually during therapy. And yeah, I'll read something from it or I'll show it to a client and I'll take a picture of it. And so I'm recommending it to clients, but then I'm also recommending to the, like, therapists as a tool, some things they can learn, I think, to help them practice their craft.

Yeah. So are you wondering what was your question about?

Well, yeah, I, I kind of took you off on a side note there, but I— what, there are a couple of sections or quotes that before we have the real intro to Brad that you just wanted to share with the audience, or concepts that you like?

I mean, one thing I really dig is, uh, just the flow of the book's really— it's really easy to consume. Um, and, you know, he hits a lot of different pieces. You know, one of the, um— I, I think I talked about in our last interview with Brian, um, where this idea around having unconscious incompetence, um, and then you have conscious incompetence, and then Um, and then conscious, conscious competence, and then unconscious competence. It's just kind of this journey that we're on, and the goal is to get to conscious competence. And wait, unconscious incompetence— unconscious competence is where we're trying to get to, um, in life. Uh, so, um, but, but also enjoying the journey. Uh, you know, I'm getting ready to celebrate with my team our 10-year um, like doing— like going one decade, um, at my practice. I'm super stoked. And, um, in the book— and this was the same thing that Steve Trafton really hit me with— is, um, that, um, you know, people overestimate what they can accomplish in a year but underestimate what they can accomplish in a decade. Um, and he really backs it up with some really good research. Um, and I, I, I think this is something that You know, when we set our minds to like the big— like what we're trying to accomplish and the people that we're trying to become, and we think about like this idea around not just, you know, the one big goal, but, but like the virtue we're trying to extol, I think it just makes a huge difference. And he really points out a lot of good ones: gumption, joy, community. Um, my favorite part is— I want to give him a hard time about this— uh, the chapter on failure is a page and a half Awesome.

Love it.

But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just great, man. I, I think I really wanna recommend it to everybody.

Yeah. You know, I'll say this is, uh, you know, I'm 51 now and as I got to 50 and headed into 51, I kind of made a conscious decision that 50 was gonna be the decade I just dig in and work on my craft. And I think that I wasn't going to chase all these things that I was kind of chasing. It's not that I don't want to perform ever. It's not that I don't want to grow or take on new projects. It just— I was— I decided, and Brad puts good language around it, I decided to try to move out of this performative mindset into this, like, deep craft mindset and just see if I can become a master of my craft and just be the best therapist I can in my little corner of the world here in DFW and practice that in a community. And so his idea idea of like growth is a craft and committing to your craft and that excellence is not a destination, it's this process. I guess that just spoke deeply to me and gave me permission that, you know what, it's okay at 50, in my decade of 50, that I'm just going to go deep and work on my craft. And whatever comes in my 60s, God willing, that it's the fruit of this deep decade of just honing my craft.

Dude, just think about Rhett Smith, this 60-year-old man jumping on the RT dialogue and, and how he harnesses this craft.

Yeah.

And I, I, I'm stoked to see that man, um, and the way he's grown, um, and, uh, the things that— the stories we'll get to tell together, um, because of that.

It's gonna be exciting. It's gonna be exciting journey. Yeah, master this craft of, um, podcasting with guests, aren't we? I hope so.

I don't know. I hope we maintain our good selves, but I think there is some things we could probably work on, huh?

Yeah, we'll be ourselves still, but we'll just get better at being ourselves.

Yeah, well, you guys are in for a treat. Hope you guys enjoy Brad.

Yeah, Brad, if you're listening— I hope you are— we enjoyed it. Thank you for taking the time. All right, everyone, enjoy.

Don't forget, Detroit Tigers trash. Later, peace.

Lance, how's it going?

What is up, Rhett? Long time no see, brother.

I know, episode 65 of the RT Dialogue. I don't think anyone can believe that you and I have taken it this far, so super exciting to be on with you today.

Yeah, I'm excited for today too. I think it's gonna be a fun episode.

Well, I'm gonna— we're gonna skip our banter because we have an awesome guest on today, so I'm just gonna get to it. So excited today. And Brad, to be honest with you, Lance and I are a little bit nervous too to actually have you on. So, but I've been reading Brad for a long time. So Brad is author, speaker, coach, teacher, and all the way— congrats, New York Times bestselling author, Excellence. So welcome to the podcast, Brad.

It's great to be here, fellas. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I thought I would start with, just kind of for fun. So I picked up this book in 2017, and there are 3 notes in here where in the margin I wrote, this is like pain cycle, peace cycle work. There was stuff about system 1, system 2, the research of Daniel, how do you say his last name? Kahneman?

Kahneman, that's right.

Kahneman.

There was stuff about mindfulness and building that muscle, uh, that was in there as well. Um, and some other things I was like, oh, I really love what Brad is up to. This idea of understanding how the brain works, this idea of insight, um, putting it into practice. So I just wanted to say over the years, starting with Peak Performance, and then in 2021, the practice of groundedness, which is right there through COVID. I think I passed out that book more than anything to people I was working with in my office. I was doing a lot of coaching at that point as well. And it's super great. And I was telling Lance, I feel like— I'll put it this way— I feel like your superpower is, as an author, Brad's the type of guy who reads all the important work it knows how to distill that information and synthesize it into like a coherent, easy-to-read material.

Very consumable.

Yeah, which I think is really important. So every time I finish a book, I'm like, oh man, that's the book I wish I could have written. It's just super easy. And so I don't know, I'll just start there. I'm just curious, is that something that you've intentionally Tried to hone over the years that type of ability?

Yeah, I think so. I think that there's really like two skills that I focus on most as a writer. The first is exactly what you said. So I want to look at ancient wisdom traditions, the latest empirical research. I want to do a lot of reporting, and I want to try to find truth with a capital T. Which is hard to do when it comes to psychology and philosophy. In the life sciences, right, you're developing a drug or a medication. You can look at something under a microscope and it's so highly repeatable and valid. In the social sciences and human emotion and behavior, it's so much more complex and there are so many more factors. So I actually think that for as powerful as social science is, you need more than just like a study with a bunch of undergraduate freshmen at a school. That's why I also like to look to ancient wisdom. I like to look to practitioners like you all and your experience on the ground and really try to get all of these sources and then draw conclusions to try to get us to as close to the truth as possible. So yes, that is job number one. And then job number two, or maybe you could say 1A, is, um, I really don't, like, believe in reinventing the wheel. I don't think that so much of what I write is rocket science. I think what I've gotten to be pretty skilled at is finding language for things that people, uh, intuit and they, like, maybe even already know instinctively, but they don't yet have words for. Uh, and then my job is to name those things and to give people words for them, because once you have words for something, uh, that feeling becomes, uh, an insight. And when you have an insight, it's more concrete. You can wrestle with it. You can hold yourself accountable to it. And it it just is really comforting to have like something that you feel in your heart or in your gut and someone to come along and name it and be like, yeah, that thing's a universal thing. Uh, so I do think those are my two primary jobs as a writer.

I love that.

Yeah, I, I also love the fact that in your writing you pick out all of my favorite things. I'm a—

what's an example of one of your favorite things?

Well, first off, I love baseball. So, um, I'm a pod— I mean, I'm a Padres fan, so beginning of the season's gonna be tough for you and I. But, um, I'm a rock climber, um, as well, so you're pulling out my favorite guys there. And I've done the big climbs as well, so, um, just that, just that mentality of what it takes to climb a, you know, big piece of rock, um, and just like mapping out the steps. So, um, And there's, you know, but I also like reading like, you know, the deeper works. Uh, we're both theologians, so we, so we get into, um, reading the, the heavier, uh, work that's out there too. So I really dig your stuff, man.

Thanks.

Yeah, one of the things I was curious about, you know, in terms of specifically we can dig into this book, The Way of Excellence, is just this idea of craft. And I know, I know a lot of your influence is, um, uh, Zen and the Art of, um, Motorcycle Maintenance by Persig and stuff was highly, highly influential in your work. Lance and I have been thinking about that idea of craft a lot because we're pretty deep in a community that cares about good work and constantly practicing and doesn't feel like we're around a lot, um, a lot of Performative People. Um, and so can you tell us just the genesis of why this concept of craft and mastery was so important to you?

Yeah, I, I think because the bottom line is most people spend most of their waking hours, uh, working on projects. And I, I, I'm very cognizant to say projects, not work, because for some people those projects are the source of their income. Uh, for other people, those projects are not the source of their income.

Them.

Um, but we, we humans are a striving species. We like to be engaging in things and doing things. We like to be working on projects. And I think that there, there are two mindsets that one can approach when you take on a project. And the first is a means-end mindset, which means the work is the means and the end is the result that you get. So the end is the paycheck, or the end is the external validation, or the end is the trophy, or the end is the view that you get from the top of the mountain. And you can live your whole life just chasing ends and, and not being super aware of the, the process, the means to get you there. The other way that you can approach projects is by saying, yeah, I, I want the end, I want the goal that, that gives the whole thing shape, but I'm gonna be really focused on the, the process and on the means. And I'm gonna understand that while I am working on the goal, or while I am working on the craft, the craft is also working on me.

Yes.

So you can be a therapist, uh, athlete, a woodworker, and you can be extremely proficient at your job and you can achieve great things but never really have it transform you as a person because you never achieve intimacy with what you're doing. You just kind of always have that mindset that I am exerting myself on the goal, and you focus on the results that you get and you tweak and you refine and you go. Or you can approach it like a craftsperson. You can approach it with the way of excellence and say that, yeah, I'm working towards those goals, I'm working on the craft, but I also want to be really cognizant of what the craft is teaching me. So how am I learning about my own character? How am I shaping my character? How am I learning resilience? How am I handling missteps? How am I building community? And I believe firmly that the latter is not only going to lead to more fulfillment and satisfaction, But it also produces our, our best work because the, the greatest practitioners in any craft, their work becomes an expression of themselves. Uh, and you only get that if, if you have this mindset of excellence where it's a bidirectional relationship where, where you are shaping what you're doing, but what you're doing is also shaping you. And it's not to say that craft should be the centerpiece of someone's life. Uh, I think relationships and love are really important, but as I, uh, explore in the book, I think that. So often we think about love and intimacy just as between two people, and that is one of the most incredible forms of intimacy. But you can also have intimacy with a craft. You can have intimacy with a practice, and those can be every bit as fulfilling as intimacy with a person. And they're not exclusive. I mean, I think the best lives have some modicum of both.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that I really like your idea, like breaking away from insight orientation versus practice orientation. Um, as, as, as you're leaning into this, like, I think what happens is sometimes we get so lost in the content that we're not actually allowing the, the work or the practice to really, um, take, take over us. Our mentor, he kind of leans into this idea of like, you know, as a therapist, good therapists are doing um, 20% insight work, 80% practice work. And I think it's one of the cool things that you're really bringing into is where the work becomes you. Um, so yeah, it's got to be, it's got to be a practice.

The, the very simple metaphor that I like using is, um, let's say that you've got this like this sore in your mouth, okay? And it's really been bugging you. It's been bugging you for weeks, for months, maybe even for years. And you go to all these doctors and they can't figure out the sore. And then finally you go to this doctor and it's like, actually, like, you've got this weird micro abscess, you know, between your canine and your molar, and you just have this like incredible relief. Like you have an insight, like, oh, this is what's wrong. Incredible. And the trap is then you think the work is done, but then the dentist looks at you and they say, great, now you've got to brush your teeth in that spot for the next 6 years, and then you'll start to feel better. And I think that that is— that's where people get on the therapy cycle of one insight from the next. The self-help cycle. If I'm going to read these books and I'm going to have an insight— and insights are great, and generally you need an insight to get started, but the insight needs to be a conduit to the practice, because the practice is what ultimately transforms you.

100%, man. I think that's, that's the thing that where therapy is getting wrong is we sit there and we will listen as therapists, but we're not actually encouraging our clients how to become the people they're called to be. So I really—

yeah, and I was talking with Rhett a little bit offline, and I know a big part of your audience is therapists, so we can, we can do as much or as little inside baseball. But I've been really influenced by the work of Stephen Hayes and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Yeah. And a big part of that is the, the kind of— I believe he calls it like contextual behaviorism or relational contextualism. There's a few words for it, but essentially saying that like you can spend your your entire life, mining your childhood experiences and all these things that got you to the place you are today. But until you figure out what your values are and you start acting on those values, your life's probably not going to change. Um, and again, it's not to say those insights aren't important. It's not to say that we can't learn grace and self-compassion when we connect with those insights. But you also have to practice. Uh, I think like change comes from practice.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's a, it's a lot of work because it's easy to sit in a therapy session and just like listen to clients, right? Day in and day out. It's a lot of work to get up in the room, have them move around, experiment, try some new things, and to be experiential in the room so that they actually experience that change. And I picture it like, to me, it's like going to physical therapy. I have this physical therapist who watches me do the work. They help kind of correct things. They model things to me so that when I leave, I know how to do these exercises. And I feel like with therapy, We are part of a community that's trying to do that. We're trying to get clients seeing what change looks like, actually practice it so they don't live their life in the therapy room. They know how to get out and to take that change outside the room. I was thinking about your interest in different traditions, ancient wisdom. You know, when you think about like In the language that Lance and I might use from like Greek or ancient Israel or coming from the Bible, this idea of this old self and this new self, you recognize this old self and you practice putting on this new self. I was wondering if there's any other language like that that you've been impacted by where there's this idea of recognizing old and practicing new, whether it's in ancient literature or psychological literature.

Yeah, it's a great question. There's two things that come to mind. The first is the Franciscan friar Richard Rohr. Uh, he talks about order, disorder, reorder. Yeah. Um, and that's also Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. So every single Disney movie ever, the, the hero starts with old self, and then there's some kind of moment that calls them to adventure, uh, and that they, they heed the call, so they cross this threshold. And then they, they go out. Simba becomes a man. Uh, Moana sets sail from the island. Uh, The Little Mermaid finally leaves the, the, the micromanagement of her father. Like, it's in every single Disney movie. Mirabel in Encanto, uh, you know, she, she, she breaks hold of the, the family patterns of trauma. And then there's all this, this disorder. Like, you go on to adventure, and then eventually in all these stories you come back home. The same but different. So you're the same person, but you're also completely changed because you, you had the— you beckoned the call of adventure. And I think that there's a reason that we find the hero's journey so resonant, because I think in many ways, like, that is the work of becoming a mature adult. That is our, our life, is to, to become someone new that is inherently also the same. Uh, in many ways I'm the same self that I was at age 20, but in many ways I'm a different person. And in The Western mind likes to think so linearly, right? This or that. But it's often both. One of my favorite parables in Buddhism is there's this story of a wanderer. I think his name is Vatachoka. I'm sure I'm mispronouncing it. And essentially he comes across the Buddha and he says, you know, Buddha, Buddha, like I've been told about your teachings that there is no such thing as a self. Is this true? And the Buddha essentially says like, yeah, there's no self. And then the guy says, well, I'm right here. I'm a self. Is this true? And the Buddha says, yeah, you are a self. And that's how the Buddha left it, like self, no self. So I think like we're constantly in this process of becoming. And for me, in my own spirituality and in my own intellect around this topic, I think that both I have a self and at the same time that self is forever fluid. And like, it's a— it's a— the poet— you ask for other sources— the poet and philosopher David Whyte. I don't know if either of you have come across him. He does great work. He talks about the conversational nature of reality. So like, he views the self as this ongoing conversation between you and the world. But what's fascinating is in none of these spiritual traditions, whether it's Judeo-Christian, whether it's Buddhism, the self is not static.

Yeah, you were, uh, Brad, you're speaking Lance's language. He's got a young daughter at home, so he's watched every Disney movie.

I've got a, I've got a, I've got a 3-year-old and an 8-year-old, and, um, I, I, I just, I adore, like, I, I found Moana, like, to be such an— I don't know if you, you've done Moana, but, like, talk about, like, the hero's journey in that song about, like, how she's torn between staying safe and comfortable with her family and going realizing her authentic self. And like, that, that is no different than a high schooler like wrestling with leaving the house. Like, these are— this is just the human condition.

Yeah.

And the beauty of like sacrificing, you know, the, the hero's journey, because you have multiple hero's journeys going on there, um, with, uh, not only Moana, but you have, uh, um, uh, what's, what's the big dude?

Maui. Maui. Yes.

Yeah, his journey of like of like learning to release the— like, I am not connected to this, uh, this, um, uh, staff of mine isn't, isn't the source of who I— my power, but I actually have a soul that cares for others. And, you know, dealing with the abandonment of his family, finding love, and it's, it's so incredible.

Yeah, yeah, I love it. I, um, you know, one of the themes that runs through your work too is this idea of authenticity, or I just experience you as being really vulnerable, whether it's something I've read of yours or heard you on a podcast. And, um, why do you think that is such a critical piece for you, just this idea of authenticity showing up in your work?

Yeah, I think that, um, honestly, because like I'm gonna die one day, and what's the point of performing, you know? Like, I'm like, that, that's it. Like, I'm only here once. I, I Yeah, I recently heard this quote, Rhett and Lance, and it said, I want you guys to think of the year 1741 and tell me, like, who is the most powerful high-status person in 1741? Yeah, you have no idea. That's the point. So like, 200 years from now, no one's going to— no one's going to know who we are. So like, what's the point of like performing? To me, it's like, of course you want to be vulnerable and authentic because like, that's going to give you the most textured, fullest, most meaningful experience. Um, and eventually everyone's going to forget about us anyways, at least on, on this physical Earth. So might as well, like, be yourself and go all the way. Yeah.

Do you think something has shifted in culture? Like, I'm, I'm 51, so I don't know if it's age, or maybe hopefully I'm getting more mature, but I feel like I spent a lot of my life trying to perform and trying to, to, like, display that in a way. And as I've gotten older, I've had more interest in just going deeper and more quiet and doing the hard, quiet work and not getting caught up in all this performative stuff. But I also feel like there's a shift in culture, and I feel like you write a lot about performance and this shift as well. And I'm just curious what you think is going on or what you're noticing and why you're, you're drawn to people who aren't into performative type stuff, but into the deep work.

Um, yeah, say more about the shift in culture. You think it's moving more performative or away from performative, or both at the same time?

It's probably more that.

I think you have a decision to make that you're going to be performative, and you're— there's a lot of attraction to do that. But I think there are people who are feeling burned out by that and are moving more towards deeper, meaningful, almost analog type stuff.

Yes, I think that's it.

Craft. And so yeah, I feel like we're more at a, at a critical junction. And but well, I think the way—

yeah, here, here's, here's a way to think about this, and it's how I try to think about it. I think you just have to define like what game you want to play and make sure you're, you're playing the right game. So, um, there is the massive commercial, uh, You know, the secret Mel Robbins game, and that is a game of growth and try to get the masses and try to become essentially as popular as you can. It's like we're all just stuck in high school. So there's some kids that just like wanna sit with the popular kids and they'll do anything they can to get there. And often you kind of have to perform or act or maybe dull yourself or, or make your, your, your work a little bit more superficial. Or you can play like the, the, the craft game or like the, the excellence game or the deep game, and you're never gonna reach as many people. You're never, your podcast is never gonna have that many downloads. Your practice is never gonna be as big. You're not gonna be the celebrity therapist, or at least you're probably not going to be. Um, but you're gonna get to, you're gonna get to experience that, that intimacy with your craft and like the, the challenge of really going deep. And I think that there is like this bifurcation happening and you just have to figure out what game you wanna play. And I think that the challenge is sometimes people get stuck playing the wrong game. So sometimes people that care deeply about craft start chasing downloads and growth in size, and then they're miserable. And some people just like want to be as big as possible. And if they were trying to play the craft game, they would be miserable. So I think it's just like really about being authentic, back to authenticity, like being authentic to yourself. And I guess I've kind of realized that, um, I am happy to never get that big because I just think like my values of like truth and integrity and going deep are inherently going to prevent me from getting that big, which is totally fine because like the game I'm not playing, I'm not playing the growth game. I'm playing like the high integrity to myself and my work game, and I still want to grow. Like, I want to sell as many books as I can. I'm sure you want this podcast to be listened to by as many people. I'm sure you want your practices to grow. But growth is not the peak value. The peak value for me is tell the truth in integrity and satisfaction, and then growth. I think for some people, growth is the peak value, and then integrity and telling the truth, you only do that if it works in service of growth. And by growth, I don't mean spiritual or personal or psychological growth. I mean like status. Status growth.

Yeah.

And this is as old as time. Like, you both said that you're theologians. Like, I feel like, I don't know, 15% of the Bible is either directly or allegorically people chasing status and realizing it leaves them empty. Yes.

Yeah. In a former life, we both were in the, like, pastoral ministry before we became therapists. And one of the notes I have written down here, back to this bifurcation, and I won't get into my own deep personal story, but I think usually there's a crisis or a suffering or some type of humbling process that takes place where you realize this is the path I want to go down now. You know, I've tried this and something happens, maybe a crisis of faith, a crisis of something. And I don't know if that's accurate, but I know for me, I think life gets hard, something happens and you realize what really does matter, what really is important. Not this. Just me and my family and doing good work in this community of people.

Yes. And I think that the humbling part is key because I would say that I'm really— I guess I don't know if it's just my innate temperament, but like, I have all the insecurities and all the holes that the rest of humanity has. I guess I've just kind of realized that like no amount of success is ever going to fill those holes. So I never like craved status. But I probably had an outsized ego in my late 20s and early 30s, um, and then I experienced a massive fucking depression and like barely survived. And nothing's gonna soften you up like that, uh, and I wouldn't go back and wish that on anyone. I wouldn't go back and wish that on myself. I wish it didn't happen because it was just pain for suffering and it's terrible, um, and it absolutely softened me, and it made me more compassionate towards myself and in other people and less judgmental. Um, and, and I think that there's a lot of people that go through something like that, whether it's a, a physical illness, a spiritual illness, uh, I guess not really spiritual, deconstruction, mental illness, loss, grief. Like, like, life, life humbles you. And I think that when that happens, there's kind of two roads. You can harden or you can soften. And I guess, like, I softened with the help of a really good therapist.

Yeah, I've heard you talk. I think you talked about that at length. Was it the Rich Roll podcast about going through your own depression and stuff?

Yeah, it was probably on that one. That's a long one.

Yeah. Yeah. What year was that, by the way?

Do you remember when I got sick or when I recorded that podcast?

When you recorded that, sharing that?

I think it was 2023, maybe that I recorded that with Rich.

Okay. Yeah.

No, maybe it was 2021. It was either '23 or '21. I don't know.

Yeah, I remember just hearing that and really appreciating your, like, vulnerability there, you know, and that's what I think— that's one of the things that has drawn me to your work over the years. So, okay, I'm going to ask you guys— I'm going to take a veer here and ask you guys a baseball question. Since Lance is a Padres fan, you got your Detroit Lions— Detroit Tigers, I mean. Um, our mentor is a huge baseball fan, and over the last couple years, he's taken his family and Lance to the Field of Dreams even and done like—

Oh wow.

We played a game, old-timey game on the Field of Dreams.

Yeah.

It's incredible.

And it was awesome. It is.

So I'm going to put you on the spot, but you can probably think of one. Can you name a baseball athlete that you've been really drawn to that embodies this work that you're talking about, this love of craft, this going deep, this excellence? And I know there's a lot. But I'm curious if there's one that you've been drawn to over the last couple of years. I know you've posted about some during the World Series and stuff, but is there an athlete, a baseball player specifically, that you're like, "This person embodies this"?

I mean, I'm going to just be a fanboy of the Tigers here. It's my hometown team. I'm wearing the hat. Tarek Skubal, who is the Detroit Tigers' number one pitcher, um, is just like so committed to just being the best pitcher he can be. Um, and it's so clear that like he is not doing— not chasing bright and shiny objects. Like he's just dedicated to, to trying to be the best pitcher he, he can be, and then the rest takes care of itself. And what does that mean? That means like just focusing on the details, keeping the main things the main things, um, not being distracted. I mean, the guy have so much fame and celebrity. He's the last 2-time Cy Young winner. He's probably the best pitcher in baseball. But a lot of people have never heard of Tarik Skubal because he's just like locked in on pitching. So, so he's the person that, that probably comes to mind for me. And then I think just across sport is, is Steve Kerr, the coach of the Golden State Warriors. He's kind of like my sports, my sports role model for his integrity to, to craft and then his integrity as a person.

Yeah, yeah, I know.

I don't know, Lance, who would you say? Awesome.

I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go, uh, Padres as well, sticking with the home team. And I would say Tony Gwynn. Um, Tony Gwynn, uh, amazing, amazing, uh, hitter, um, for, for baseball. He had to adapt, you know, as he got older he got bigger, but he had to adapt. But the one thing that he was always really good with was getting, um, you know, the bat to the ball. And he had, you know, 3— his, his— he, he finished at.373, which is crazy. And the thing is that he crushed the best pitchers out there, like Nolan Ryan. Um, you know, uh, he, he would just crush everybody. Um, and the best part about Tony Gwynn is when he finished, he was so committed. Like, you talk about excellence, I think he would be He hits all the things, routine, consistency, just for the sport. He stuck around with his team the whole time. So he found his fit. I think that's one of the things, your fit, knowing where you fit and you can quit if it doesn't match, but he found his fit with us. But then he goes on and he coaches San Diego State baseball and he's so committed to the sport that he really grows up, some of the best, uh, players. So not only does he, uh, like, learn, but he also, like, gives it back to the community. Um, so he's, he's hometown favorite, you know, Mr. Padre. We love him.

It's awesome. I learned something new today. I, I didn't realize that there was a baseball team in, in San Diego. I thought it was just the LA Dodgers. Sorry, I had to. You made it easy, man.

I was nice.

Opening day.

I was waiting for Brad to mention a Dodger player because he had posted about Shohei a couple of times and stuff.

I mean, those guys are remarkable, but it's also, um, I mean, if I had a $1 billion budget to market my books, I'd be a World Series champion too, but it's not a baseball podcast. It's a therapy podcast. I need to be less judgmental. I just said I'm less judgmental and here I am judging the Dodgers.

We love it.

I want to bounce around, maybe some questions maybe you get asked about this stuff too, but, um, I'm curious just about your love of the deadlift. I, I like to run, I'm a runner, I love, I love to strength train. Lance loves to surf. You clearly love the deadlift, that's important to you. Just share something about that and how that fits into craft and how it fits into your life and, and why that you think is so important for you?

It's just so embodied, um, and I, and I think that writing is a craft probably similar to therapy. So we are so fortunate to be in professions where we have autonomy, we have agency, there's a sense of mastery, and there is a blank page that I have to fill with words, and there's a room with a client in it and there is a, um, a vacuum of energy and of space and of words, and your job is to create something in that room that's going to hopefully lead to a healing process. Okay, what a gift to have this kind of work. And I could write what I think is an incredible book, and it might flop. People might not receive it the way that I hoped. It could come out at the wrong time. Uh, there could be world events that, that kind of stop people from being able to read the book. You could probably be pretty dang good as a therapist and not have the outcome that you want with a client. And, and, and that just happens. Like, there is—

it usually is their fault.

There is still, there is still a high degree of subjectivity. So yes, we are exerting skill and effort onto our craft. And generally speaking, the result is hopefully somewhat correlated with the effort, and we can adjust and learn as we go, but there's still subjectivity. With a deadlift, there is zero subjectivity. It is— the weight is calibrated. Pounds don't change. There's no wind, there's no weather. You're in a gym, it's the same bar, and you just show up and you put in the work and you either add weight to the bar or not. And if not, you have to refine your training and you have to be patient and you have to endure plateaus. And you just like the— just the feeling of just the amount of kind of like visceral satisfaction that you get from the relationship with the bar because it is so objective and there is nothing that gets in the way between you and it is extremely, extremely gratifying. I say I get that 80% in writing because again, filling up a blank page with words is gratifying too. But then those words go out and then they're judged by people. Well, the only thing that judges whether or not I make a lift is like, did I lock the lift out? There's zero subjectivity. With that. You either make the lift or you don't. And I think that kind of concrete progress that you can trace directly back to yourself, um, is, is inherently very satisfying. And then there's the community aspect of it. Like, I train at a great gym, there's great people. I mean, I've got young kids, I'm trying to be a world-class writer, I don't have that much time for a social life, so my entire social life is essentially built into the gym. And it's great because like 4 days a week I'm, I'm having a blast with other people in a community, and they're also working hard and they're also challenging themselves. The woman I probably enjoy training most with is 73. Okay, I'm 40. Like, it's just intergenerational. It's people that come from all kinds of backgrounds. And I think that that— I think that that is really, really special. And particularly as the world moves in the direction of automation and efficiency and AI, like, lifting a bar off the ground to your hips for its own sake is kind of like the opposite of efficiency. Like, it's the most meaningless thing in the world unless you imbue it with meaning. And I kind of find that really cool.

That's great.

Yeah, go ahead.

Yes, I— yeah, I mean, there's a few things that I was— I was trying to think about. I had a lot of thoughts in reading your book.

I—

one of the things I was really touched by was, um, the movement towards beauty, um, in, uh, nature, uh, You know, and you're in Asheville. I grew up in— I grew up in Yorktown, Virginia, and I went to college at GMU. So I got to go by Asheville a few times when I was in— when I grew— when I was growing up. And now I live in like the most beautiful area in the world, San Diego, California. And the weather's always great and the like. But yeah, tell me, like when you're reading the research on like awe and beauty, Um, tell me what, what you noticed, and was this a discovery for you, or was this, um, something that you kind of intuited in your own?

Yeah, the research on awe and beauty essentially says that when, when we experience awe and beauty, uh, it is extremely restorative for our emotional regulation. And, um, it's kind of a, like, an in-vogue word to say, but I'm going to say it because it's accurate, like our nervous systems. So your cortisol drops, your blood pressure drops, your heart rate drops, your perspiration rate drops. Like all the things that you want to drop, like they drop when you experience beauty. Um, and there's, there's a few hypotheses. One is called the biophilia hypothesis, which was put forward by, um, E.O. Wilson, which essentially says like our species grew up on the savanna. We didn't evolve to be in the city. We evolved to be in nature. So when we're in nature, we feel at home. And when you feel at home, you, you, you feel rested and at peace. There's also the work of Dacher Keltner, who's a scientist in California who studies awe. And I'm going to summarize his work by saying he believes that the mechanism behind why nature is so healing and calming is these transcendent experiences kind of like deflate our ego by reminding us that like there's this whole big, vast universe around us and that there's so much more to life than our little problems that are stuck in our own skulls. Um, and, and, and that I think is not just nature. I think like that— you use the word beauty— I think like that is, that's the role of beauty, whether it's nature, whether it's art. Uh, it like sometimes a sports fan, you could get that watching like Steph Curry take over a basketball game. Like you just get like goosebumps and you're like, wow, like I, I'm just at peace. Um, and I think that we can create that in our own life, like when we get really intimate and close with a craft, or at least at times. But yes, I like there enormous healing powers of, of nature. Um, and I think that's just going to be increasing so because nature is kind of the antithesis of the modern world, right? The modern world is never sleeps, 24/7 constant stimulation, and nature has its own cycles that don't care about your email. And if you can disconnect for a little and go into nature, it is extremely, extremely healing. Yeah, I love that.

It's, it's, it's, it spoke deeply to all the reasons why I feel alive when I'm out running on the trails or camping with friends or hiking and exploring, you know? And I think in the therapeutic world, we're trying to figure out more ways to get people outside and to do some of that stuff, you know, and to do in certain types of therapeutic intensives outside in the, in the wilderness. And so I, I love that. Yeah.

I, I, I, and, and I think that, that, that you would know better than me, but I think that work shows great promise. I also think that— I think it depends on like what you bring to nature, right? Like if a severely depressed person goes on a hike and expects it to make them feel better, they're probably going to have their expectations not met because it's tough to feel good wherever you are when you're severely depressed. I think if you are someone that's in a rut or having a rough day or a little bit overwhelmed by your work, or you feel like you're kind of caught up in the rat race of status, then going on a day hike is like the best medicine there is.

Yeah, I love it. And you live in a cool place, you both, you guys do. I'm stuck here in the concrete jungles of DFW, Texas.

So, um, our heart goes out to you, brother.

Yeah, yeah, Asheville's, Asheville's great, San Diego's great. And like, you also have to find beauty in, in the small things in life because, uh, maybe this is just a motivated reasoning and excuse, but like We're not going out to the Blue Ridge Mountains all the time because my 8-year-old and 3-year-old are constantly in soccer, dance, choir, like baseball, all the things. So my, my life is increasingly suburban and I could sit here and be like, oh, I wish I could be in nature. My writing is going to suffer. My spirituality is going to suffer. All this is going to suffer. Or I could be like, it's incredible to go to an 8U basketball game and try to be the calm amidst the storm of the crazy parents.

Yes, bring, bring that emotional regulation to the—

yes, youth sports. Yeah, exactly.

I think you've written about that before. Um, hey, we'll let you go here in a minute. We appreciate your time, but I thought I wanted to just ask you a question in closing, and that is, um, is there anything that has your attention and excitement right now, like you're just really into, that you're thinking about? I'm not saying you have to share what your next book's going to be, but I don't know, to be honest.

In the few— in the past I've known, but this is the first time I don't know the next book yet, which is kind of neat. That's exciting in and of itself. Um, all right, so what has my attention? Um, I, I wanna— I'm gonna look this up because I want to make sure I get it right because I just started, but it is so beautiful. Okay, so I know I'm supposed to recommend my own book because I'm on a podcast talking about my book, but I'm going to tell you about another book that I just started reading that is just like so beautiful. It's called The Loneliness of Sonya and Sonny.

Okay.

And it is just poignant. Like, oh, it's just beautiful. I'm struggling to do anything else other than read this book. So I'm extremely into that right now. And then more broadly, like in an intellectual or idea level, I think I'm wrestling with something that many people are, which is in an increasingly automated and digital world, how do we not lose our humanity while at the same time not becoming kind of just reactionary to every single tool? Because tools can be wildly useful. Like, we're having this conversation on the internet, right? People are listening to this on a little device that is probably in their pocket. My guess, with wireless headphones. Like, that is remarkable. And, and if everything is mediated through technology, including like thinking itself, which is the direction that artificial intelligence seems to be going, then like, what does it even mean to be human? So I'm really fascinated. I guess the summary would be like, how to be a human, a pragmatic humanist in an increasingly digital world. Yeah, let me know if you've got that figured out.

No, but I will recommend Paul Kingsnorth's book Against the Machine.

I just recently heard a phenomenal podcast about that book, and it's on my list to read. Did you like it?

Yeah, it's pretty heavy, but there's a counterpart by— I'm trying to— I'll look it up. What's his name? Something Shaw, maybe George Shaw. He's written a book, Something of the Wild. I'll probably just end up putting it in the show notes and sending it to you via email. But yeah, I think that idea of how do we be human is going to be a huge one.

Apparently Paul Kingsworth, and I don't know if this is lore or reality, maybe you know, Rhett, is, um, you know, this book really popped off and like he went on this book tour and it was crushing. And then I guess like 2 to 3 weeks into the book tour, he just told his publisher, he's like, this sucks, I'm done. And then like he just like returned home to the woods in his farm or whatever, and he's just like, I'm done. And like the book hasn't sold as well as a result, and he's fine with it.

Oh, I could see— I mean, I don't know that, but I could totally see that happening. Yeah.

Oh, it's, it's great. It's like skin in the game. It's, it's practicing what you preach. But, um, yeah, I don't think it's lore. I think that really happened.

That's awesome. Well, hey Brad, I— we could of course talk to you all day, but I honestly, we really appreciate you coming on and taking time to spend with us, especially amidst your busy schedule. And, um, you've spoken a lot to my life, and, and the stuff that you are about is stuff that I see in my own community and in my relationships and friendships and the work I do. So I just appreciate you being that voice out there who's speaking those truths.

Thank you so much. Thanks for the kind words. Thanks for having me, and, and, um, I really enjoyed this conversation.

Yeah, good stuff, man.

Guys, have a good day.

Cheers.

Yeah, bye-bye.