Season 2 | Episode 66 | Special Guest, RT Therapist & Assistant Professor, Dr. Corynne Keirnes

Lance, what's going on today?

Rhett, dude, how are you, my friend?

People need to hop on the video and check out your new haircut.

Yeah. Yes, I always go big. Like, I, I go a long time without getting it cut, and then I go like knock off a whole bunch of it. So I'm— I still don't look as good as you. I, I'm like, I was tempted to do the coif, but then if I do the coif, then it exposes my receding hairline too much. So it's a tough life, bro.

Here's the— did I share this before? This is You know, and our guest is probably like, oh boy, what are they gonna talk about now? But I, um, I've had skin cancer in my head too many times to count and multiple surgeries, as my doctor informed me that my adolescence in the sun, Arizona, is coming back to haunt me. So I try to keep my hair kind of, uh, full Yeah, there's, you know, there's, there's been a good amount of, um, scarring up there, so maybe one day I'll just hack it all off and just go for it.

I don't know, dude, you look so good with your hair. Anyway, I feel similar, like with putting the sunscreen on, like I started doing like stuff for my hair so it— so I get to keep it. And you know, hopefully less sunscreen, man. That's the goal.

Hey, start, start with some announcements.

Okay, I got some stuff coming up, guys. Okay, so one thing that, um, keep your, keep your ear to the— what do you put your ear to? The road?

You're the floor. You're the ground. You're to the ground.

You're the ground. There it is. Thanks, Karen. Um, keep your ear to the ground. We are hopefully going to be doing, um, our intensive for pastors in Colorado. We're looking at, um, early fall. Um, so we're hoping to get some people, um, to come out to that. Uh, it's going to be the Turning from Anxiety stuff that I wrote my dissertation on, and Rhett, um, basically created most of it, and he's writing his book on it. So we got something to say, hopefully, hopefully something that can help some people.

I co-created it with Tanner and Terry and Sherrod, so I'd say that, yeah, it was, yeah, it was a, it was a group project.

Yes, group project. Uh, speaking of that group, Tanner and I, um, we want to hear from you guys. Um, Tanner and I are talking about putting together a training for people that want to learn how to do intensives in general using Restoration Therapy. Um, so, um, if you're interested in learning about how to do intensives using Restoration Therapy, please send me an email at lanceahl@gmail.com. It'll be in the show notes, but we're on the ground floor talking about it. I really enjoyed— I enjoy intensive work, so love to share that with others. So that's my two announcements. What do you think?

Yeah, and one more. Um, August— April, April 24th and 25th, we're doing like an RT gathering. It's a Friday night, uh, just casual hangout, Mexican food in Austin. 25th is an all-day training, so 7 CEUs. Dr. Eric Ehle will be teaching on the Forgiveness Model, uh, through the RT lens that Terry developed that they've all kind of been working on a little more here. Um, cost is $50. I think it's $50. It's like $55 once they cover fees and everything, which is super cheap for an all-day event that includes like lunch and other, other snacks and stuff. And we're, you know, we're hoping to get 20 to 30 just Texas RT therapists there for the weekend to get to know each other. So, um, that link will be in the show notes, uh, sign up people. I host a monthly Zoom meeting too for Texas RT therapists, and so a lot of them listen and hopefully will be there as well. So excited times, Lance.

Good stuff, bro. Dude, what episode are we on right now, right?

66.

Dude, in the beginning, we're only in March. Yeah, and our goal was to hit 100. I think we're gonna do it.

I think so.

66. Um, well, I'm super stoked for today. Um, this is a person I got to hang out with, um, back in, um, a year ago. I don't know how long ago it was. We at WindShape, we all got together, we did a training on turning from anxiety Um, and even before that, um, I got to know her husband at Fuller Seminary. He and I both were, um, he was a year behind me in the MFT program. But when you're a guy in an MFT program, you know, there's not many of you, so you kind of pay attention. So I remember, um, him and, uh, oh gosh, there's another guy that's in Tennessee now, um, Pisey.

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, Pisey.

Yeah, him and Pisey, um, uh, and Tanner, obviously. He was in Tanner's cohort. How crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

So some really amazing people from that cohort. Um, but this amazing guy, you know, leveled up, um, and got to meet an amazing woman, uh, Corinne, who we get to hear from today. Uh, Corinne is a practicing marriage family therapist and professor at Vanguard University. Um, her practice is in Centennial, right?

Yep.

Denver, Colorado. Um, Corinne was actually one of the first DMFTs. I don't know if you were the first to walk across the stage, but you were of, of Fuller. So she was 2 years ahead of me at Fuller, um, getting her doctorate of, uh, and, uh, marriage family therapy. And, uh, her dissertation is Integrative Parenting and Discipline, something that I think we all can learn a little bit about. Um, so Corinne, stoked to have you on the podcast today. How are you doing?

Good, thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Yeah, it's been a— it's been a long time coming. And, um, you, you have a huge fan in Sharon Hargrave too. She's always— oh, she's always passing on information. Gotta make sure you talk to Corinne. I'm like, we are, we are, we've been working on it, Sharon, don't worry.

We're gonna—

we're talking, okay?

He's the best.

Yeah, she's totally awesome. So Shout out Sharon.

Yes, shout outs, but we love her.

Usually with our guests, we're always curious how they got to RT, but I mean, it seems pretty obvious. You, you were at Fuller Seminary. Yeah, right. And what year did you start the MFT program?

2012.

Okay, so you're like 5 years after Terry's been there. Yeah, the program. Is, um, was when you came to Fuller, like, was your goal always to be a therapist, or were you like wanting to teach, or like do both? Like, I'm curious because people, you know, when we start off in a psychology major and we think about a future career in, in therapy world, I don't know, it can go many, a lot of different directions. So yeah, what were you kind of like thinking about as you headed to Fuller?

So I thought originally when I went to do my undergrad, I thought it was gonna be an elementary school teacher. Fell in love with more child development psychology. Went to Fuller thinking I'll be a child therapist. Um, fell in love with RT under supervision of Terry and decided I really like couples work. I actually want to work with the whole family, with parents, with married couples, dating couples, all that good stuff, and pivoted again and ended up working mostly with couples and adults using the RT model. And then I went back 7 years later for my doctorate, and full circle, was like, you know what, I want to develop a training for parents and caregivers on how to integrate all these awesome tools I learned to really raise children up in a way that integrates their faith and reflects the character of Christ, but also is based in interpersonal neuroscience. And we know that is actually going to help with their developmental process. So I feel like it was a clunky road and it all kind of came together in a way. Yeah.

So that's so awesome. I love that whole interesting journey. Did you— now, where did you do your practicum? When you were—

Yeah, I did too. So I worked in Pacoima, LA at a school site working with middle schoolers. And then my second practicum site was at Lake Avenue Church with Terry, seeing couples in a live mode setting. Yeah.

Nice. It was a big team. Yeah, that you had was— Terry was a little bit nicer for you guys, I feel like.

He was awesome. Yeah, yeah, he—

yeah, he's— I love— like, he was not messing around. He was like, you will be the best therapist in the world, so help me.

That is true. That is true. He does give you a lot of feedback, but it— I always took it as he really believes in my potential. And so, yeah, yeah.

Do you remember those moments when Terry— like, when you're doing therapy and like Terry would be watching And then all of a sudden you come in the room.

Yes. Yes. Do you have any fun stories? You hear a little knock on the door.

Yeah. Do you have any fun stories that are, that when it, you know, can change the characters if you want?

Yeah. I remember working with this couple and we were getting really stuck in their pain cycle. And I hear a little tap tap on the door and Terry comes in.

Here comes the wizard.

And he's like, you know, y'all, I just want to enhance something Corinne's doing with you. And I'm thinking, this is not my idea, Terry. This is your idea. You're— I get to brilliantly— or I get to watch your brilliance right now. And he took this like sculpting exercise I was trying to do with them. And he just like, I don't even know how he did it. There were pillows involved in different stances. And like, you know, the pillows represented like a wall. And it was just this beautiful experiential moment with them, where they both were just like emotional and connecting and seeing their pain cycle in like a physical way. And able to just, I think, really take it in. And I just stood there in awe watching like, wow, that was amazing. I could never have done that. And I'll never forget it. And it did teach me the way he used his voice. And his body and his nonverbals to really drop them into their emotions. I take that with me.

Um, yeah, I mean, I know everyone— not everyone, most people on this listening are therapists, but it's hard to describe that feeling of both, um, shame that the door is getting knocked on because you need an intervention, and the relief at the same time that someone's gonna help you out of this This mess.

Oh yes, but I feel so lucky I got to watch him do therapy. Like, I'm so lucky.

Yeah, he's a master at the craft. I mean, it's just amazing. Like, when, when he comes in, there is, there is a shift that's going to happen. Um, I'm sure it doesn't happen all the time, but, um, he— yeah, I'm so— we, we're so blessed to have him as our, you know, founder and one that's kind of trained us in the, in the beauty of restoration therapy.

Yeah, you know, you, you have this, I guess, journey. It sounds like starting off interested in like children, adolescents, and then you get interested in couples, it sounds like, and then like entire family system stuff. And then you kind of make this journey back to like doing your dissertation and parenting and stuff. What is it like these days that you find yourself most excited about in terms of your work? Because I know, you know, you got your practice, you also have your teaching at Vanguard.

Yeah, I think it's twofold. One is I love mentoring the next generation of therapists. That makes me really excited. Um, I am no Terry, but I get to pour into them the way that he poured into me and see their potential and guide them. And so for me, that's incredibly rewarding. And then I also get to train them in the RT model, which is really awesome too. I'm training them on the Turning From Anxiety protocol this summer. We're doing like a weekend intensive where I get to teach them that protocol, which is gonna be cool. And then on the other side, so I do a lot of teaching at churches on my dissertation. And it can be for like people in leadership, it can be for parents. I teach a lot of mom co-groups for young moms who are just kind of like looking for guidance. And what's cool about that for me is I get to see my work actually impact the larger public. And, you know, kind of light bulbs go off, people get excited. They implement these things with their children, they come back and send me an email and say like, hey, this really helped, or my kids made progress, or who knows, like what it's, you know, very unique to the person. But for me, that's really exciting to see that this work is going out into the community and helping people. And within the RT model, this idea of like self-regulation working your side of the fence so that you can show up in a regulated, connected way to your child and teach them self-regulation is really cool. And so there's just so many ways that it's all kind of connected and exciting to watch it change people. Give them hope.

Awesome. Tell us—

tell us—

oh no, Lance, go.

I was curious around like parenting and like when you're doing trainings on parenting, um, and how you integrate. I feel like I always have clients come in and they're like, are there any good parenting books? I don't know what I'm doing, you know, my kid's got ADHD, my kid's got— my kid's crazy, I hate my kid, you know, like I don't want to hate my kid, you know. Like all the things, like, tell us a little bit about like how you handle cases like that and how you would encourage therapists in that.

Yeah. So I think for me, whatever modality I'm using as a therapist, as a professor, as a mom of 3 myself, as an educator, it needs to have 2 things for it. So it needs to reflect the character of Christ. Any way I'm treating people, children, adults, I need to be reflecting the character of Christ. And the second thing is I want it to be evidence-based. I want to know that it's actually going to promote growth in the brain, this ability to self-regulate, to develop self-control, impulse control, emotional regulation, empathy. And so for me, it has to be two-pronged. It needs to have both. And I would agree with you, Lance. Like, I think a lot of— when I did my literature review for my dissertation, a lot of books were on one end of the spectrum or the other. I couldn't find a whole lot that integrated the two. It was just faith-based or just science-based, and the two weren't connected. And so for me, um, am I parenting in a way that is helping my child build the skills in their brain, specifically for me, in line with the fruits of the Spirit? And also Am I reflecting the character of Christ to my children in doing that? Um, yeah. Does that answer your question?

Yeah, no, I think it's so important because I feel like I, I would struggle to find good Christian literature because like, I feel like there's— I'm not going to name the ones that I really dislike, but like, you can read my dissertation. Yeah, I mean, but I mean, literally there's a lot of the Christian resources are like basically light abuse of children.

Like, they're all behavioral compliance.

Yeah, fight their will. They're— your, your child is like, you must break them. You must break your child. Break your child.

Yeah.

And so I would have clients come in and they're like, I can't break my child. I'm like, I don't think we're supposed to break them. I think we're supposed to help heal them, you know?

Yeah.

Um, and so I, I would struggle, you know. I would, I would end up, you know, I'm a with, you know, you recommend Siegel, sounds like. I think he's in your dissertation. He is, yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah, I think I, I— it was such a big struggle for me to find good Christian resources that would, um, be something that would not, like, encourage abuse of children.

Yeah. And, like, I don't— for me, I don't just want behavioral compliance from my children. I want them to develop all those skills I mentioned, and I want them to choose the right behavior because they have empathy, because they have compassion, because they have self-control, not because they don't want to be punished. And so, and also, I don't want to parent in a way where I'm saying, hey, God loves you unconditionally, but I'm modeling conditional love, because then their God concept and their God image are going to conflict. And I don't want that for them. So yeah, it was, it was a task. It was a big task.

I remember this is way back, like 2012, 2013. I did like a 12-post blog series on their book, The Whole Brain Child.

Yeah.

And I remember Tina had reached out to me because she had come across the article and Dan Siegel and stuff. And, um, I remember that like book really changing my parenting perspective too, because it was one of the few things— and you guys could— and you could tell me if I'm off here, because you've done more research than this, but that whole first chapter about a parent has to essentially be emotionally regulated if they're going to parent, um, was so different than a lot of the parenting books where they don't even really talk about the parent, they talk about the child, you know?

Yes.

Yeah, it's like, oh no, if I'm gonna parent well, I myself have to be emotionally regulated. It all starts with me.

Yeah.

And that was a huge change, as you guys have already said, just in the literature, especially in Christian circles.

Yeah, yes, yes, their books, No Drama Discipline and, uh, um, Power of Showing Up. Um, favorite, like, oh my gosh, like, he talks about, like, you are— or she, she is— I don't know who the main writer is, but we love both of them.

So they collaborated together on all of those books.

Yeah, but, like, she talks about this idea of, like, you're raising up disciples. Like, discipline is to disciple your children, and the word disciple is to teach. And you're like, oh, so when I get angry at my kid—

yeah, yeah, you can't learn when you're dysregulated.

Yeah, yeah. And power showing up— like, half the book in the beginning is all about you. Like, how are you raised as a child? What happened to you? It kind of reminds me of, um, you know, working up, working down. Like, you know, that whole idea that we have in restoration therapy. So Yeah, it's good stuff.

Is Vanguard— do you guys have a physical campus in the Denver area? Are you doing— you do?

Oh no, not in the Denver area, just in Costa Mesa, California.

So when you train students, do you do both? Are you also going to California? Are you doing mostly online, or how does that work for you?

Yeah, so I teach for the online program. Um, they do class via Zoom, so it's synchronous, kind of like our DMFT program was. And then I travel to California several times a year for on-campus events. So I'll be there this summer for commencement. And then for that weekend seminar, we'll teach them the Turning From Anxiety materials as well. So it's, it's a good little hybrid, I get to do both. And I'm from that area. So it's lovely. I get to also visit family while I'm there and take my kids to Disneyland, you know, crucial. Yeah.

And so like when you mentioned this event coming up, you said intensive, you'll be doing that in person? Yeah, with students?

Yes, yes. New therapists. Um, I think I have 12 registered and a couple on the waitlist, so I don't know how many they're gonna let in. Um, it'll be an intimate group, but I'm excited.

I'm so envious of that experience. That's just something like a lot of students and I didn't really get access to in, at Fuller in the program, you know, or the whole intensive model, you know, I wasn't even exposed to until I was at the Hideaway and stuff. And so that's really just think about training therapists, young therapists, for them to have that experience from the beginning and the things that you learn in an intensive setting that you just can't like duplicate.

100%.

Lance is in agreement over there. It's just so amazing.

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm stoked for that.

What do you think, you know, since you have your feet in both worlds as a practitioner and in academia— I mean, this is an unfair question since we're all RT aficionados, but you know, what is it that you've really seen as a differentiating factor for like why RT why you love it, why it works so well, why students maybe gravitate towards it, say, maybe different than some other models. And of course, there's other models I know that we all like and that we'll all use for different things. But yeah, what have you noticed from your perspective is kind of the differentiating pieces that like make a young student be like, oh, I want to really dive into this?

Yeah, off the top of my head, I think there's two things. One is that I think it integrates the best tools from multiple models. So we get to do like attachment work, right? We chase that pain back to those early attachment wounds. We get to do some Gestalt and open chair and reparenting yourself, right? We get to do some family systems work and see patterns and cyclic, you know, patterns that happen for people. So you get a little of that EFT stuff in there too. And then we get all the good nuggets from more of that like mindfulness, CBT model towards the end of the RT model as well. And so I think it just takes the best and puts it all together in a neat little package that people are like, I want to do the deep work. I want to pay attention to the emotions. But I also want to give them a tool that they can practice to develop new neural pathways in their brain. It's like, well, I got something for you. It does all of it. So that's the first reason. The second reason is, and I remember Terry kind of drilling this into us as students that I have found is so true is that if you don't have a model to guide you, that is your anchor, you get lost in the room. There's so many high, you know, high emotions and so much content, and you get lost as a therapist. And the RT model, it's an anchor that step 1, I'm going to chase the pain, step 2, right? So it anchors the therapist, you know where you're headed. No matter what the content, no matter what the presenting problem, I know where I'm headed with every client. And so it keeps you grounded. Other models feel like you're kind of all over the place and you're just in the emotion and you're kind of lost. RT feels, feels like a good balance where I know where I'm headed and I'm not getting kind of caught up in the tornado of emotions with a client.

So true.

Yeah, yeah, we totally agree here.

Pretty much.

Well, I was thinking of something that one of our guests said, who— he'll be out in an episode later this week, Brian Sneed, because he had— Lance may remember this— he's, he's— there's a lot of different models he was interested in. He's practiced everything, and he said something to the sense that RT just kind of answered Everything fit with RT. It just— everything kind of made sense with RT.

Did you see— didn't he say like it broke his brain or something like that?

Yeah, something like that too. Yeah, it's just— yeah, it's, it's crazy. What, um, what do you— you know, one of the things that we're always thinking about, and I think Lance is thinking about too, is like, what are the challenges with RT? Like, where are the areas that we need to grow in that we need to work on? Because I think We see it as a younger model. We're always trying to develop things and, and learn. And again, I think you two have an interesting perspective because you've done, um, higher-level academic work and research and stuff. Like, what are areas of growth you think for RT, or things that you would like to see worked on?

Yeah, well, I think a goal for mine is to publish more of my work because I think that's something that I'm always like, oh, I don't want to put this out there. What do I know? You know what I mean? It feels daunting. But I think more of us RT practitioners need to be writing about it and publishing so that it gets to more ears. So here in Colorado, I think there's one other certified RT therapist. I went on the website, and he's up north by in Boulder, and I'm like, I need to meet him. So there's just not as much, at least in my community, like awareness of the model or accessibility of the model. I think the new Mindful Marriage book is going to help with that in the coming years. And I, yeah, I'm passing it out like candy. Um, but I think just getting more literature out there and publishing more and writing about it so that other practitioners learn about it and we just kind of extend our reach is going to be a big deal.

Yeah, that's a huge one. I think we all get up against our pain cycle when we're writing.

Oh yeah, right?

Yeah.

I enjoyed your dissertation, by the way. So I think—

thank you—

turning that into a published piece, um, would be really, uh, beautiful, you know. I think, you know, I'm super excited. You know, Michael Cox, I don't know what the latest is with his— do you know anything, Rhett?

He's, he's working on writing right now. I was texting with him the other day, so he is, he is busy in writing mode on some stuff too. So, yep.

So I think like if we had some good resources from, from you guys, like, I think there's something we really need in, in um, the RT literatures would be some more stuff to help with parenting. Because I think Terri's got such a— I haven't seen many models that have what Terri offers when it comes to doing, you know, like, parenting is the only place where it is all give and no take, you know. Like, and I think there's something that it would be so great to have a, like, an accessible piece of literature for, um, the public to be able to consume, to quit, um, having their, their kids parent them or find them identity in their kids, you know, all the stuff that we do. Um, um, and I think I would love to see something more out there to, to help.

It's a goal. It's a hard one for me, but I, I have a goal to do at least one thing this next year, so we'll see.

This is our public callout of Corinne's publishing.

Yeah, my accountability.

Yeah. So wait, are we saying in one year's time, like by the summit next year?

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going to be at the summit, so I'll keep you all updated.

Yeah. Something I've been challenged by and I've been learning And I think some of it had to do with this book Lance and I were reading together. We had a guest on last week who— his book— we'll be talking about him in a couple weeks, his episode. But, you know, all of you are in like research. I don't have my doctorate, but I love reading and doing the research on my own. And I think doctoral though, I think where we get stuck sometimes is, um, I don't know. I've, I've learned that the real gift is to take the material, the stuff you learn, the stuff for research, and put it in the most simplest, easy to understand, um, reading and book for people to access. Because I think people who do a lot of research and in grad school, we want to write like the people that we read, all the big researchers. I, I don't— I can't— I can't speak for you guys. I want to sound like I'm very smart and get like all these theories. But I think what we need and what people are hungry for is just someone to distill the information, to synthesize the material and say, hey, here is something really easy to access. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because— and so that's one of the things that I loved about our dissertation process, Lance, is that we got to take all the research that's very intellectual and heady and top-shelf stuff that most people won't read And we got to say, okay, how do we bring this to the everyday person? How do I bring this to my community? Which for me was really exciting because I do geek out about neuroscience, but like, most people are like, what are you talking about? That's not exciting. So if we can bring it to the community, make it bottom shelf, make it really applicable to their everyday life, then that research wasn't in vain. It's actually making a difference in someone's life, which is what it's for, right?

What's the most exciting thing for you right now as it relates to neuroscience? Like, is there something out there that you're like, I don't know, just really, really pumped about?

Yeah. Oh, well, I think just in general for me, how experience changes your brain, like physiologically. Um, and I think it's Paul, he talks about like the renewing of your mind. And so to me to see, like, tangibly how that can happen for someone is really, really cool. And how with mindfulness and intentionality and repetition, we can create new neural pathways. We're not stuck doing the same thing that feels familiar the rest of our lives, whether that's as parents or spouses or whatever, all the different aspects of our life. That part's really cool to me, and it makes me excited. And my kids are kind of getting to an age where I'm noticing that some of the things that my husband and I try so hard to instill in them are actually starting to show up for them. Not all the time. They have their pain cycles, but we're seeing glimmers of it. It just makes me so excited to see tangibly how all this nerdy stuff is real, like the way experience does change the brain. So cool.

How old are your kids now?

8, 6, and almost 2.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, my 2-year-old, we don't see any of that yet, but my 8 and 6-year-old, I'm like, okay, I see glimmers of that.

I'm really disappointed in your 2-year-old. Yeah, I would expect more.

You gotta break— you gotta break the spirit. I'm just kidding. Break it. Or like, wait, yes. Sorry, people, you got to back up a few minutes to understand that context. But yeah, I mean, I really see it in my 18-year-old who's home for spring break from her freshman year in college. And, you know, I didn't— we didn't do stuff obviously perfectly or even very well at times. But seeing that, I mainly think about how love and trust has played out and how she lives her life in the home that my wife and I tried to create, and imperfect at times, but the sense of safety that kids experience and love and how they operate out of that when they're out on their own is— it's like, whoa, okay, you know, that's cool. Crazy. I was thinking too, like, this is where— and maybe you want— I'd like to hear you say more about it, but you reference Paul. So this is where the great, I think, integration lies. And you just referenced one passage in Romans 12, and I was thinking, I mean, there's— Paul writes about this. Yeah, Ephesians, book of Philippians 4. I mean, lots of places where Paul has a sense, you know, thousands of years ago, that the way forward is to focus on truth, on virtue, and to practice, meditate on those things and practice those things. Yes. And so when you go into a church, the neuroscience backs up, you know, what Paul's already been saying.

It's amazing. Isn't it crazy?

It's so cool.

What the heck?

Yeah. And for me, in my undergrad at the university I was at, it was very much like, if you love psychology, then you cannot be religious. Like, the two don't go together. It's either science or faith. And that was devastating to me because I fell in love with the field of psychology. So for me, I think my life's work as a professor, as a therapist, as a teacher, or speaker is— I don't think they're opposed. I actually think that as we study the mind, God created it, we actually see His handiwork, and it fits perfectly with what we read in Scripture as well. And even just looking at how Jesus discipled people, the way that He interacted without getting too into the weeds about it.

Okay, we like the weeds.

I mean, he, he started with connection, which is the top way to lessen the downstairs brain reactive, um, yeah, fight, flight, freeze, right? Brings people into their prefrontal cortex so they can think and learn. And then he gave a teaching opportunity, and he had high expectations and high warmth, which all of the neuroscience says is what is the best for human development. And so to me, I look at the way that he interacted with people, and I'm like, he discipled people with, with all of this naturally, the way that he interacted that we're learning in science now, like, is ideal for helping people change, which is just cool. It's not surprising either when you think about it.

Yeah, that, that to have the mind of Christ, I mean, that's like even in the scriptures, like to have the mind of Christ, I mean, that's such a— yeah, he's, he is definitely the representation of, you know, uh, like of all, of all the self-regulation and, and what he encourages us. And, you know, in all the treaties he has, it's just absolutely brilliant. Even his disciples, um you know, continue that message of self-regulation through the Spirit. So I think it's absolutely amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was thinking a lot about— because I've been working on this book stuff with Terry and, you know, working a lot on anxiety. And something— a passage I've been— literally, I call it rightly ruminating, you know, it's not anxious— for the last 20 years, you know, it's Philippians 4:6. Through 9, but I was like backing up and I was like, verse 5, Paul says, let your gentleness be known to all. And I was thinking about looking at the word gentleness and this idea of like, everything was about you before you try to direct people in a different way. There is this idea of connecting with others first, you know, whether it's this idea of gentleness or compassion. And unless people experience that connection, it's hard to help walk alongside them to move them in a new pathway. And as therapists, how important that is in the room, people show up, if they don't feel loved and safe with you and connected, it's really difficult.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for a long time, Christian literature said that's too fluffy and warm, that's gonna spoil people, that's indulgent. We need to be all rules, we need to be all consequences. But we're actually learning. And I think if you look at Christ, like, you can have high level of warmth and connection and very high expectation and boundaries with people. It's not one or the other. And humans thrive when those two things are combined. Jesus is the originator of that, like, that's how he engaged people. So how do we do that differently moving forward? And the neuroscience backs it up. So that's always the kind of question.

So tell me, like, when you think about, like, Christ and you think about, you know, if we're— we have therapists that are on here and we have other practitioners that are, like, big faith people. Tell me what this looks like in the therapy room for you as you kind of engage your, you know, what is that? How do you You know, I think people struggle with how to integrate in the therapy room.

Yeah.

And I think this is so beautiful, like this idea of like, whoa, like God, like high warmth, high expectation, you know, connection, this, this flow. But what does this look like when we're actually doing the work of therapy?

Yeah.

Or even professors?

Yeah. So with my clients who have that faith background that want to incorporate their faith, there is different parts of the RT model that I think you can integrate that perfectly. So I love doing empty chair or visualizations of some type, and often if my clients want this, I'll have Jesus come in the room and speak the truth about who they are. And, um, that's really, really powerful. I had an experience where I did that on my own in my own therapy, where I envisioned a traumatic memory and Jesus stood between me and the perpetrator and He spoke truth over me. And it radically changed my perspective. I feel like it was nervous system deep. Like, I can remember that traumatic memory and I don't have a trauma reaction, which is really cool. Yeah, like integrating God's truth as you're doing that reparenting work is really, really powerful. And I think words are really powerful too. Speaking truth out is really powerful. And I think that's scriptural as well. And so doing your 4 steps, the truth about me is I am good enough and lovable, even if I'm not perfect. For me, that's my truth. That's powerful on a spiritual level, on a neurological level to create some new pathways. But it's both. It's twofold, which is really cool. With my kids, I speak truth over them every day before they go to school. And now they know it and they're like, "Okay, Mom, I know." But I'm like, "I want to ingrain this in you right now." And there's power in words and speaking truth.

So good. We did this episode with Rob. Recently. He's got this, uh, Parenting from Peace book that he, he's created.

Okay.

And, um, a journal. Yeah, it's really cool. Um, but I was— in the time, he, he encouraged us to— like, one thing that he does is he, he'll like, um, lean in on a truth with his kids every morning. And, um, like, so I've been doing it with my daughter. It's been so much fun. Yeah. Tell me something you like about yourself, and then I'll lean in on that with her. So that's great. It's fun. It's fun to like incorporate our therapy in our own lives in a healthy way.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, I've learned it's not healthy to analyze family trees of spouses and things like that, as it turns out. I, you know, my son's 15 and he'll say, ah, you're just saying that because you're my dad, you know. Yeah, so I'll just keep saying it. But I also have come to realize him recognizing that, like, he's aware that I'm saying something and he's kind of pushing back a little bit, and it makes me realize, like, there is— he notices that Dad is doing something different than maybe is normal or his friends don't experience, you know. And so, you know, just kind of leaning in on that and realizing, you know, he's in a stage of life. Uh, what's that book, uh, Dan Siegel has? Storm?

Brainstorm?

Brainstorm. Yeah, he's 15.

He's in it. Yeah.

So I'm just gonna keep telling him, I love you and I'm proud of you. He's like, why are you proud of me? I'm like, because you're my son. Oh, that's a lame— that's a lame reason, you know. So, ah, but it reminds me of, you know, you are my son whom I love, with you I'm well pleased. In the gospel.

You're my beloved. Yeah, out of—

as Nouwen and others say, for no other reason but you belong to the Father. That's it.

Yep, that's all you need.

Yeah, yeah, it's hard.

It is.

That is one thing I do like to do with my clients though, is to take the truth, um, and have them connect scripture to it. Like, you know, they'll be— sometimes I'll have them like camp out on truth work and think about like somebody that influenced them, or like a worship or a song. And a lot of times it'll be a worship song, but then I'll also encourage, you know, what biblical character knew this truth? And if you could tell me the story, you know, I think, I think things like that really helps clients to get out of their pain cycles and be like, oh yeah, I can be like Naomi. I can do it.

Yeah, I love that.

And you ask yourself, their material.

Yeah. And I always ask myself, like, when I'm in my pain cycle, would I say these things, these things to my children? And if not, then why am I saying that to myself? It's— that's not God's truth. Um, and so it's also a good, like, kind of litmus test for as you're, like, doing that— you're caring for other people as a therapist, you're caring for your kids, and then you're also re-parenting yourself, right? It's like Oh man, so much work here.

What, um, I was thinking again, just like from your lens as somebody who trains other therapists, I think maybe this is my own therapy here, that's why I'm asking you. Um, you know, one of the challenges I think about a lot, or it comes up in our monthly meetings on Zoom and stuff and everything, is You know, in RT, it's like we got to work the steps and we keep going back to the pain and the peace and working the steps and over. And I think I remember Terry saying, yeah, I'm just like a one-trick pony. Like, I don't need all these other things. We're just gonna keep writing. So I'm wondering, I would, I wonder what students— it'd be easy to kind of feel like they got to learn, they got to take, you know, like, hey, we're not— I had a client even last week be like, but this doesn't solve the problem, the pain and peace cycle, you know. And so like, we're always trying to look for new stuff. And I'm wondering, as from a therapist perspective and a teacher, like, how do you speak into that and encourage them to— this is the work, you know?

Absolutely. Yeah. And I, um, I integrate some psychodynamic tools within the RT model. So I pay attention to the transference. We do, um, corrective experiences in session that they can take with them outside of the room, paying attention to like that microcosm of what's happening between me and you Ah, your pain cycle is playing out between us. Let's use it right now. Let's do those 4 steps right now together. So I think it enriches my work with clients. And so, yeah, we're practicing a lot. And there is some time to process, like, it's hard for me to be vulnerable. It's hard for me to come back to this. It's hard for me to trust that it's going to make a difference in my life. Or I'm experiencing you like I do my parents that always tell me what to do. Okay, let's sit with that for a second. And then we're going to go back to their 4 steps. So that's kind of the way that I kind of lean into that process. I don't, I don't think it serves me to avoid the transference because I think that's where it's like, okay, it's happening in the moment. This is what life looks like for you and your pain cycle outside of the room. I don't know if that's Terry approved, but that's just, that's just how I am.

Terry would always say the pain in the room is the best room, the best pain to work with. Like, you don't have to, you don't have to create pain if it's already coming in.

Yes.

Yeah. Corey actually wrote a good article on this recently.

Oh, really? Okay. I'll have to read it.

Yeah. If you go to our Substack, Corey Page, shout out Corey. Columbus.

She was my roommate in my master's program.

There you go.

She wrote a couple of inter— a couple interventions for us and talks about this, like, pain in the room and stuff, and Terry talking about that.

So it's really called Activation, is the name of that.

Okay, I need to read what she wrote. Yeah, and I think there's— whatever the resistance is there, it's, it's, it's in their pain cycle, right? There was an adult in their life who let them down or didn't show up for them, and that's how they're experiencing you right now as the therapist, and they're feeling stuck or like you're withholding from them or whatever. And we can go into that and we can explore that. Um, are we going to come back to your 4 steps? Absolutely. But I think there's time and a place to sit with that, um, and to have some corrective experiences around that too with the therapist.

Yeah, one of the— I guess that's a joke on our podcast— is that when I was at Fuller at my practicum site, which was a great experience, but my supervisor, his model was the psychodynamic approach, and that was the only approach. And it's just hard to kind of get, you know, when you think about RT and the stuff you can do and the tools. I came out of Fuller, I didn't know what I was doing, you know. Yeah, probably knew a lot though.

I feel like all my psychodynamic friends are really smart.

I, I feel like that's a good blend, Brett. Like, I feel like that probably makes you really attuned to what's happening in the room and what's playing out dynamically and lean into it.

Maybe, maybe it's just my ongoing envy of all you guys who walked out of Fuller with, um, the Restoration Therapy model in your tool belt.

Sure. Yeah.

You know, I have to, I'll have to lean, I'll have to go do some more research on that, see how I could, that could be of use.

Yeah, we can, we can consult a little bit if you need. Yeah.

Is there—

and Lance has kind of hinted at this a little bit already, and you've kind of talked about some of this— but like sometimes there's an intervention that a therapist is working on that they're really trying to use in the room more, and it's really— and maybe it's one that's not new or it's novel to you. Is there some intervention that you notice you've been working on or coming back to a lot that really has been helpful for you?

Yeah. There's a couple that come to mind. I've been trying to find ways to make the 4 steps more experiential. So having someone like stand up and, you know, put their hand over their chest and on their stomach and like maybe visualize something as they're doing their 4 steps or put themselves in a certain posture, just trying to get like more of that embodied experience of the 4 steps so that they have this like muscle memory to pull from. There's some research that just like even like the way that you're standing can change, it communicates something different. Your body communicates to your brain and says like, oh, I feel confident right now. And so I'm trying to find ways and I don't know that I'm articulating it well. That like they can get into a certain stance or position that after like practicing that regulating truth, their brain goes, I know what that is, and they can get there faster. And that looks different for each client. And sometimes I let them choose like, what posture does that look like? Like in your pain, it looks like you're crumpled. But what does it look like to believe that you are capable, that you are beloved, right? And having them embody that. I remember Lance did that with me at the Turning from Anxiety Summit or intensive, whatever you want to call it. You had me stand. You said, "Corinne the liberator." And I had never forgotten that— liberating myself and my family from anxiety. And that was really powerful. It feels funny at first experiencing it. You're like, "Why are you having me stand up? Like, what do you— what does this do?" But it really does change the way you physiologically interact with what you're saying.

So yeah, it was great. I love that. That was so— when you did that, I was like, I love that moment. Did I have you stand up on a table?

You did, on the coffee table. I was mortified. I was like, I'm going to be brave. I can't believe I'm doing this right now. But it did. It made a difference. And I will remember it. And I envision that experience. Um, and that was awesome. Yeah, I had so much courage.

By the way, on the Turning From Anxiety website, I don't know if you've been on there recently, um, you are like one of the stars in the video.

What? In the video? Yeah, goodness.

You, Clint, and Justin like definitely get some good time. Like, you're like the, um, you know, the elite, like, engaged, like, um, uh, Uh, participant.

Yeah, yeah, that was awesome. I'll have to watch.

You know, I just had this flashback to like that scene in Dead Poets Society at the end where they start standing on their desk. Yes, you know, they take like this empowering stance in this position as they're reading, like reciting this literature. And, um, it does make me think about how important that whole idea of showing up, how we want to position ourselves. And I was, you know, you seem like a fairly confident person to me, but I was wondering, you know, is that ever a challenge for you in the room to like think through, like, how do I do this experientially? And like, you find yourself holding back and like, how do I get them up and moving?

And yes, I— every single time I ask a client to move out of their seat or try something with me, I always feel this hesitation of like, I'm not good enough. Who am I to ask them to do this? Like, that is my pain, right? I'm not capable, like, whatever that is that goes on in my mind. And I just remember Terry in live mode being like, just have them stand up, you will find your way, Corinne. And I do, I always find my way. But I do initially always feel that pain of like, it would just be more comfortable if I stayed in my therapist chair. And we just like did this the traditional way. But every single time, even if it's like a flop, where I'm like, oh, like, that didn't feel like it really hit. Yeah, it is still incredibly memorable. You will never forget having your therapist have you stand up and try something new. And so that is still getting imprinted in your brain. So it's still actually not a flop. And again, we can lean into like, what was that like for you? What feelings did that bring up for you? And so To me, I feel like it's always valuable even if it doesn't go the way I planned. And if it doesn't go the way I planned, it brings up something that we need to explore a little bit further. What, what pain came up for them? Did they feel vulnerable? Did they feel exposed? Like, let's go there for a second. Yeah, anyway, I could ramble about it. But I do feel that nervousness of like, okay, here we go. We're going for it.

Yeah, absolutely.

No, that's good to hear. That's the, you know, I think like not only for me but, you know, in my experience with other RT therapists and the communities I'm part of too, that's— I think that's like the growing area we're all trying to lean into, is to try to be more comfortable in our truths and get more experiential with clients. And, um, even those people who think they're not doing it, I think they're doing it. They're, they're, they're leaning into it. It just maybe doesn't look as dramatic as something that Terry may do in the room or that Lance may do in the room, you know?

So yeah, Lance is bold. He just goes for it. And that's something that I felt encouraged by last year. It was like, wow, like he's just going for it. And I can tell Lance that, like, even just watching you, you were like, I don't care how people experience it. Like, I'm going to go for it and just do my thing. And 'If people think it's weird, so what?' And I'm like, I need to adopt that kind of stance myself.

Game on. That's awesome, Corinne. I'm glad you received that.

That's that drama brat gown, right, Lance, for you coming out? Like theater, I think, a little bit in some ways.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think we would all do well to play with improv theater.

Yeah.

Um, as therapists. I, I was an improv— I did improv for a while, um, and I think doing improv got you used to, um, just failing. Like, the name of my improv troupe was Crash and Burn, which, you know, when, whenever you're doing, you know, shtick, um, or whatever, like, there, there's this element of, like, you know, I think you have to embrace failure as part of it, and Um, but knowing, like, those glimmer moments, like that, that shiny— like, if you ever go to improv theater, um, there, there's usually one moment, like, there's a few flops that happen, but there are moments that you're like, that was crazy, that was awesome, you know? How did they link those things together? And I think by put— being pushed to be creative, um, you know And, you know, Corinne the Liberator, she was a badass. So I mean, I really, I really dug— yeah, that was awesome. But we had a good group. That was such a great group. Our group was—

who?

It was you, Clint, um, Justin, and was— was your— did you have Michelle in yours, or—

yes. Yeah, in Texas. Michelle from Texas. Yeah.

Yeah, it was, it was, it was such a great— we had so much fun. Um, Clint, Clint is another bold dude. I don't know if you've— he's such a great therapist. I love that guy.

I've been consulting with him for using the RT model for OCD, like pure OCD, where it's just all the rumination. And because he specializes in OCD and he also practices RT, and it's been really fun. Like, we— like, I've learned a lot from him and It's really been helping some of my clients, and it's been great. So yeah, yeah, he's gifted.

Have you guys followed him on Instagram at all, his, his practice?

Yeah, yeah, he's—

he posts really good stuff.

For—

so those of you that listen, Clint's one of our favorite people in, um, Louisiana.

Yeah, that's right.

And, and he'll— he, um, does these regular posts on Instagram. I'd really recommend following his stuff that he's got going on. Love you, Clint. I'm sure he listens to all the episodes.

What's it like to have a practice with your spouse?

Oh my gosh. Why did I know you were going to ask? It is just the two of us. We're going to hire our first trainees next fall, like fall '26.

And by spouse, I mean Cameron, who I don't know, but I know.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, two things. One, it's awesome because we make our own schedule. And so we get to like tag team the parent stuff, drop-offs, pickups, little guy, like, I just feel so thankful for that. It's also hard, like I like we definitely and we're nerds. So he'll be like, Corinne, like you were definitely in your pain cycle right now. And I'm like, I know, and I just want to stay there. And like, I don't want to, I don't want I'm not going to do the right thing right now. It just brings up and highlights all those dynamics and brings up your pain cycle, working with your spouse, especially because we're just together so much and we have to collaborate and we have to be a team. And so there are challenges there for sure, but it forces me to practice what I preach. That is definitely the case where it's like, we need to figure this out. So I need to regulate myself right now and show up as my peaceful self. Um, I have a different opinion that I need to show up in, in a regulated way. And so, um, it's twofold. It's awesome, it's also challenging at the same time.

So is there— I've never really asked a therapist this yet on the podcast, but I'm curious because I have some, um, Colorado therapists who do therapy in Texas and they go back and forth to Colorado.

Oh cool.

Are there any, are there any unique challenges you notice, like being in Colorado at all, that maybe are different from other places?

Hmm, maybe for someone that might be considering Colorado.

Yeah, yeah, this is just talking. This is— no, this isn't just about me, but I've, I've, um, yeah, I've had some different colleagues here from Colorado talk about different challenges they face in Colorado that they think are unique. And so I was just curious if you notice me thing, or therapists in other states have different things I've noticed that have come up, you know, like Clint has talked about different things in Louisiana, I think that like, yeah, I don't work with up here in northern Texas and different stuff. Right.

Right. Um, well, coming from Southern California, I think seasonal depression is a thing that I didn't ever experience or know of. And now I'm like, wow, working with clients, like there is something going on here when it starts. Dark and snowy, like this is showing up for you. I am now experiencing that too and realizing like, there's something about the climate being different living here that's unique. So just like clinically, I think that's one thing. As a clinician coming from Southern California where there's like 1,000, you know, therapists within a couple square miles that practice RT in that community, I don't have that out here. So that's been a challenge is like, if I can't work with someone and I want to refer them to an RT therapist, I don't have a lot of options here in Colorado. So hence why I like, I'm trying to train people out here because I'm like, let's get some more RT clinicians out here. And just having to be intentional, like meeting with Clint on Zoom to consult with him, meeting with my California colleagues to consult with them. A dear friend of mine is in Northern Texas. And so she and I consult with each other and support each other. But having to be more intentional because I can't just lean into a community here that just— it's, it's not— it's more up and coming. It's not established in Colorado yet. So come on out, come be part of our community.

Yeah, well, they were, you know, one thing they were saying too is the challenge of they, at least in their community, didn't have a lot of like male therapists, you know.

Yes.

One of the things I thought was unique about Colorado and why I like Colorado, and I think Lance probably has this there. I feel like Texas, you know, maybe I need to appreciate what we do have more. But we, on another episode, we're talking about this sense of like awe and outdoors and wilderness in terms of aiding the therapeutic experience. And yes, where you're located in Colorado, I was wondering if you thought much about stuff out as it relates to outdoors or taking students outdoors or clients, and if that's been beneficial.

Yeah, we have walking trails where you see like deer and foxes in our city. And so I have a walk and talk consent form. I will go on walks with my clients out in nature. And it's powerful that there's that bilateral stimulation of walking around nature. It's so sunny here, there can be snow on the ground, and it's still warm. And so yeah, like I'm outside, I would— I've considered like, what would a weekend intensive look like up in the mountains? Like those things make me excited. My husband's a huge outdoorsman, so he's like, yes, let's do like a fishing trip where we like, you know, it's their dream stream. Yeah, yeah. So, um, I'm not doing as much as I'd like, but I definitely think just like walking and talking can— is so— getting your body moving while you're practicing these things is really cool.

Yeah, I've had this thought. I don't I've tried to track down some research. I don't know if it exists, but, you know, I used to have a ping pong table in my office, and it was— I thought it was helpful from a bilateral stimulation perspective, just kind of hit the ball back and forth. And then I noticed, and I'm not good at this, but, uh, on occasion when I, when I would fly fish, the casting across my body, the big, the big casting, yeah, you do in fly fishing versus just kind of maybe— I felt like it was calming And I started to notice people out in the water for hours at a time fly fishing, not even moving. And I was thinking something like that, there's gotta be some research where, you know, casting the fly rod across is—

I believe it.

It's calming, you know? And I could see why your husband, if he's outdoorsy, could probably come up with—

Yeah, he's a fly fisherman.

Yeah, come up with some different activities to be like, you know, help people get into a space.

Yeah, and there's something when you're in nature that just is soothing and calming and regulating and grounding.

Yeah.

And I think that's something I didn't know I needed till I moved here, coming from LA. It's just— I don't know, it's— there's something different saying your truth. Yeah, walking and seeing the mountains right there, and like, it's just different. It hits different. It's hard to describe, but Yeah, I'd love to explore doing more out in nature for sure.

Yeah, yeah, I like the idea of fishing though because like you got like when you're fly fishing, you're working the, the creek, so you're going up and down a lot of times depending on where you're fishing. But like the water, you're a lot of times you're in the water, um, and then you're throwing, you know, you have to be patient, so you have to be very mindful about how you're throwing your fly out, your presentation. Is it right? You know, and you're changing it up. And then the bilateral stimulation of having— you know, if you're a fly fisherman like me, which means I'm losing my flies constantly, it means you're always tying knots, you know. Um, you know, I, I would imagine there's probably some good merit to, um, the therapeutic benefits of fly fishing.

I bet you it's there.

I should use my HSA card for, uh, buying fly fishing gear.

And, you know, I guess one thing I was thinking about the other day, my hope for the future of RT, is that there's places around the country that are doing unique kind of work, like a center. Yeah, you know, like Lance has got his in San Diego. There's a group of people in Colorado doing some interesting stuff. And, you know, people in the Northeast, you know, Michelle and Nicole, and then people, um, you know, out on the Southern, Southern area, you know, whoever. I just— that as we grow as a community and do work, we could partner up and go to places and learn from how they're approaching RT different through the context that they're in. I think that would be really exciting. And so, yeah, that's part of the reason me asking that question, because I hope in the future, like, stuff pops up in Colorado and you guys develop this community.

Yeah, we're excited. We're— like I said, we're hiring our first trainees and all of our supervisees will be trained in RT, which is really exciting. And a ton of my students— I taught at a university out here for 2 years— a ton of those students have gotten trained in the model and gotten certified. So we're casting our net, like we're, you know, starting some of those ripple effects. But I'll keep you posted. I, I think that would be amazing if my husband and I did more experiential out in nature work with our clients. Um, that'd be really cool.

That's awesome.

That would be cool. Yeah, well, doing cool theological work, I think, outdoors too, and come like just bringing those pieces together. So yeah, I'll end up there. I'll just say that.

Yeah, we should talk about that Martin Shaw podcast sometime. That was so good.

Yeah.

Um, well, I'm so excited that you're here today. You know, Corinne, you're such an awesome blessing to the Restoration Therapy community and and thank you for teaching the next generation. Thanks for your investment in so many people. We're so blessed. And any last words for you today that you'd like to pass on to the community?

Just that I'm thankful for y'all, and it's so cool to know that everyone is doing this work in their own context, in their own space. And even though we're all kind of spread out, like, it allows me to feel connected, like I have a community Something Terry always would say to me is, be faithful to do the work in front of you, because I would get so overwhelmed with the pain in the room. And this is only one person, how do I help them? And so that's my encouragement to others is just be faithful to do the work that's in front of you.

Yeah, I receive that.

Here's a quote, Corinne, from your, your website. Therapy is art, and it is from that which we aspire to create masterpieces. Terry Hargrave.

Yep, yep. Come on, my little Terry-isms that I carry with me and I pass on to my students and, yeah, my clients.

That's, that's definitely like in one of your chapters of your book. I think that like when you write your book, um, that you're putting together right now, like that should definitely be—

I was thinking an article. That's— whoop, that's a whole nother— someday. I do want to write a book someday. Yeah.

Well, yeah, when you put it on the Substack, that'll be great. Thanks, Corinne.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Thank you for putting up with Lance and I's, um, all, all over the place today. Appreciate it.

It's been a pleasure.

Take care.