Season 2 | Episode 67 | Special Guest, Masters Level Intern & RT Therapist in Training (and new interventions) -- Justin Metz

Lance, what's up?

How are you doing, man?

That's like a cold start to episode 66.

The energy.

Hey, I have one thing. If people have never watched the video of the podcast, do you think they know what that noise is in the beginning of the episode?

Like the sound of the coffee being made?

Yeah, because if you haven't watched the video, I don't know if people exactly all know it's coffee being made. Do you think?

I don't know, because it has that like sound in the beginning, which is classic indicator of 'Hey, somebody's making coffee right now,' because otherwise it would sound like somebody is, um, you know, relieving themselves.

Well, we'll ask our guest in a minute if he knows. He probably has watched the video though. But, um, that, that's the invention of our editor, R.O. Smith. He's like, 'This is a dialogue, we got the coffee cups, let's get a little coffee maker.' So yeah, good stuff, R.O. Um, Announcements. Go ahead, Lance.

Ladies and gentlemen, for those of you— tune your listening ears to this— Level 1 trainings are coming up. We got the East Coast with Dr. Terry Hargrave, our, our brother. He's going to be out in New York, at New York City. Guys, if you ever wanted to see Broadway and learn how to be a Level 1 trainer or do Level 1 training, this is the jam. Go to New York City. You can expense it to your business and learn how to do restoration therapy. I'm actually thinking of going now. I've been through Level 1 training probably a dozen times, but, you know, maybe the 13th will get me through. Baker's dozen. It's April 17th through the 18th. Go out to hear Terry. There's still space available, which is insane to me. Most of his trainings are usually not full, so make sure you come to there. If you can't make it there and you live close to Texas, our brother Michael Cox is going to be doing one in Texas, Austin, Texas. Justin, you know anything about Texas?

Maybe a little.

Yeah, I thought so. But yeah, Michael Cox is going to be doing training. He did his Level 1 trainings are always like, I had one of my teammates go to his Level 1 training from California to hear him, and they were just over the moon about Michael Cox. So you gotta go to his Level 1 trainings. He's a great trainer. What do you got, Rhett?

All right, unfortunately, the same weekend in Texas, we have— I don't know if it's our first ever Texas gathering. I'm sure people have gathered before in some form or fashion, but we have Um, RT gathering April 24th and 25th. It's a Friday night meet at dinner, Mexican food I'm hearing. They're picking out a spot. And then Saturday, all day Saturday at Hill Country Bible Church, they're going to host us because they have a counseling center there. I think almost all of their therapists have been trained through RT. Um, Brian Snead, who had the podcast a couple episodes ago, is one of the co-directors there. Um, we're going to do a 7-hour CEU that Saturday with Eric Ehle, Dr. Eric Ehle from DTS, and we're going to go over the Forgiveness Model. Um, that's, you know, part of the RT, um, part of the RT lens, or through the RT lens, I should say. And then finish at 4 so people can stay the night in Austin if they want or drive home. And it's all for $50.

So crazy.

If you want to sign up, go to the events page on the RT Dialog Substack. I've also posted it there. We'll post some links in the show notes as well. So that should be a good time. I'm hoping, you know, if we even had 20 to 25 people, it doesn't really matter how many people show up, but if we had 20, 25, it'd be just a solid turnout for our first time to gather together and get some momentum here in Texas.

Dude, that's awesome.

That's it, Lance.

Rhett, who we got today?

All right, I'm excited. So actually, I don't even know the first time I met Justin. I think he sent me an email and then we got together for coffee. It's a little coffee shop over here, Summer Moon, out of Austin that we walked to. And we've met a couple other times after that and just chatted all things RT. He is a student, a grad student at DTS, um, as well as I guess on staff— he can share more— at the Marriage Place here in Frisco. Um, him and his wife are ballroom dancers, so I'll let him say more about that. I think there's some good— um, I know, I know Sue Johnson used to talk about dancing a lot with EFT stuff too. I think we've had a conversation about that, so We're excited to have him on. Welcome to the pod, Justin. Yeah, we're super stoked to have you on. You know, like all things, we like to start— tell us a little bit about— okay, I'm assuming because you're going to Dallas Seminary, that's your entry point into RT, but I don't want to assume anything here, so tell us how you came to RT.

Yeah. So, uh, I'm currently a student. I got about a year left of classes. The plan is to graduate next spring, so coming up towards the end of that. Um, working backward though, my wife and I met at a dance studio, and, uh, we were teachers there for over 10 years and worked primarily with adults and with couples. And so that was really where the beginning of my experience working with couples started. My undergrad is in psychology, but took a long winding road between there and going back to grad school. And along the way, one of the things that we actually did training there with was on the book Crucial Conversations. And a lot of that emphasis was on owning your part of the dialogue and your part of communication. And so we spent a lot of time brainstorming and even training staff on what it looked like to have effective communication and pay attention to what was going on in your fight-or-flight response. So fast forward to last year—

I want to back up a second. So in your dance studio, you guys read that book Crucial Conversations, right?

Is that the Mike Foster book?

It's, um, Patterson, Carrie Patterson, Grenny, MacMillan, and Switzer.

Yeah, social conversations, tools for talking when stakes are high. Yeah, wait, I just want to stop there because that's interesting. So like in a dance studio, you, you and your wife read this marriage book and basically teach people principles from a marriage book that help you inform yourself in terms of being a dance instructor's Yeah, so the emphasis on the training was for the staff to be effective communicators and to be good teachers.

We work primarily with adults, and so we received a lot of variety of training on how to be good communicators. But because my wife and I were the managers and we were training, we spent a lot of time really chewing on that material and paying attention to what it looked like for how our fight or flight response affected communication.

That's cool. Okay. I just wanted to make sure people listening didn't miss that. This is part of your dance curriculum where you learn early on the important— I don't know, let's call it principles or ideas about effective communication. I guess I would use the word differentiation in one space as you're dancing and stuff.

Yeah, and so a lot of that had to do with stress management. You know, you have couples come in and adults aren't used to learning something brand new. And so even just in terms of being able to understand what does this look like to— we didn't call it regulating emotions, but to be uncomfortable and to learn how that looks when you're interacting with your partner. And so then That became something that formed the foundation of our relationship with my wife and I. That was something that before we were even dating, we were absorbing that kind of principle. And so when we got to— when I read Mindful Marriage last year, then that was an instant resonate point to go, oh, of course. You have to self-regulate. You have to own the story that's going on in your subconscious when you start to tell a victim or villain story about your spouse and know, how do I do something other than be reactive? And so I connected with that as soon as I read Mindful Marriage, started to play around with that a little bit, started listening to the podcast, and then In my family systems class last fall, part of that class was to be certified in Relate Strong. And so then I got to spend a whole lot more time chewing on that and getting training in it. And all the while, I had started to apply the Pain and Peace Cycle ideas at my practicum site. And so I've gotten to practice it really, um, since before I'm out in the real world. And it was It was incredible how organizing it was. And I know that organizing and sequencing is a lot of what Terry talks about with the training, but to feel like as a student, I'm going into sessions and I was able to take what my clients were giving me and know where to go with that was a breath of fresh air to feel like, okay, I can do this even though I don't know what I'm doing. This is usable even out of the box.

Dude, that's great.

I know. Is— who teaches that systems class? Is that Gary Barnes? Okay, he's awesome.

GB.

Yeah, GB. I remember seeing him first at an RT event. I don't even remember where it was. I think it might have been at Malibu or something, and, um, we rolls up, he's got these like cowboy boots on and stuff, and he's a super, super brilliant guy. So that's awesome that you were able to do that. I, man, I always would say I wish I— Justin, you went into early sessions way more prepared than I ever was. I just walked down the hallway praying that something magical would happen, man.

My wife and I have been teaching marriage classes at our church as part of our, our serving at the church. And we've been pulling in information from Crucial Conversations, Love and Respect, which has another cyclical approach. Although even just to understand the Pain and Peace Cycle compared to that, this was able to be customized for the couple. This was more specific. And so then I found that people were relating more to that. Than the more generic idea from Love and Respect. And so it just, across the board, it was such a natural fit.

Yeah. And so you guys currently, are you currently in a small group or teaching as a couples group the, uh, Relate Strong material?

So we are in a small group, um, and I did a really abbreviated version with our small group even to the point of doing the intervention we might take a little look at later with, with the cup. But we also did just finish teaching the first round of Relate Strong on Sunday mornings at our church, and that was really well received. And it's exciting to see the light bulb come on for couples when they can really connect the dots on that, even from the psycho-ed approach. Yeah, that's awesome.

Have you ever— that's awesome. Have you ever in a small group, Lance, done an intervention?

In a small group? Yeah. Oh yeah.

Oh, you have, man? I'm the only one left out here. I don't think I've pulled off any interventions in any small group I've been a part of. So watch out, watch out, my small groups, dude.

So here's the danger. I was learning restoration therapy, and, um, my wife's a pastor. So what happens is Jennifer's leading a small group and I'm learning how to do this. So we got— this is back, back in the day, uh, 5 Days to a New Marriage.

Yeah.

So like we, we had a small group with 5 Days to a New Marriage and I was like doing all the interventions in there, totally just practicing, trying to figure out how to do this stuff. Yeah, yeah.

I just, I always have the voice in the back of my head, my wife saying, I do not want you doing therapy on me or my family. So then I think about extended networks too. And so even when my friends come up and think, oh, Rhett's thinking about this, I'm like, no, you guys, I'm, I'm too tired to analyze all of you. Yeah, I'm just having a good time here. I mean, I still am analyzing you, but you know, I'm just not going to say anything.

Of course.

Um, so Justin, like, you know, one of the things like you and I connected around, and you had reached out and just had questions about ROT, which I appreciate. And I've been— I think after talking to you, it had me start thinking too about a lot of things that, um, maybe since I've been in a while I hadn't thought about. Or I think you have a different— you come in with a different lens than maybe I or Lance did, which I think is really refreshing and stuff. And so I was curious, what's been the most challenging aspect of learning RT? Has there been something that's challenging that you had to work through? And then what's been the easiest? You're like, "Okay, yes, I love this.

This makes sense." I would say the most challenging is the standing up and getting moving part because I naturally gravitate towards teaching. And so I really have to fight the urge to sit and talk at my clients or to share all the information that I'm really excited about and is so valuable for them to hear. And so I have to guard against that. I appreciate the callout that you have to practice. You have to give them an opportunity to practice the skill if you expect that they're going to use it outside of the session. And so that has been, um, it's been hard, but it's a, a valuable reminder for me. And when I do that, then lo and behold, it actually sticks for couples.

Yeah, I, I was actually curious because, side note, funny story on Lance is I used to always introduce myself as, hello, this is like before Lance like um, got regulated. Um, I used to introduce myself as, my name is Lance and I like to dance. Um, wow. Yeah, that was, that was my, my cliché. I was like, like to dance. But Justin, you actually like to dance. I'm trying to think, like, like, as a dancer, there's, there is this psychoeducation part, but there's a lot of practice parts. So I was curious, like, like, you know, like, when you start the music this interplay of that happens in the room. I don't know, this is just me and my brain getting excited of having like a dance instructor, um, and just the little nuances of dance that happen.

One of the things that I find myself pointing out a lot when we were teaching dance, we talked about floor time, and it didn't matter how many lessons you had you still needed to go and do the group classes and dance at a practice party and have an opportunity to try out what you've been learning. And it's that floor time that actually helps you absorb and integrate and feel like you're using whatever skills you're learning. And so when it comes to practicing the 4 steps and we talk about creating that new neural pathway, that's a really natural way to integrate that, that it's not gonna just be that you hear it and the insight is what causes the change. You have to have that floor time of practicing in order for it to stick.

Yeah.

Is this why I'm a horrible dancer? Is this why I do not like to get up in the room and it's always the biggest challenge? I feel like spotlight's on, the disco ball's over me in session and everything, and I feel like awkward. Does this go all the way back to my fear of dancing? Is that what you guys are saying?

I would say that most of the adults that we taught, we would use the analogy that it's really difficult to be in learning mode and protect your image mode at the same time. And adults are so used to being good at what they do and so used to being on autopilot and worrying about what everybody else thinks, they have a harder time learning than kids do a lot of times.

Yeah.

And so if you're worried that you're going to look like a fool, then it's really hard to be vulnerable and try something new.

Man.

So, Rhett, he's saying yes. Yes.

Be a fool. Justin, just to throw this out there into the atmosphere, the ether here is there might be a book in your pocket one day about dance and RT and incorporating all the principles and concepts.

I don't know about a book, but I could see doing an intensive or a workshop. My wife and I have gotten to do a dance-related class, a couple of them at church for a marriage class and using material around dance. And that was always a lot of fun.

Yeah. DeeDee Meyer, if you're listening, do we need a dance party at the summit? One evening, like some kind of plenary session or something?

I'm telling you, Dee Dee, I, I think, um, we're getting into something here. The Malibu dance?

No. Oh gosh, Lord help me. It sounds like for you, Justin, though, the cycle, the Pain and Peace cycle, is what made the most sense to you. Like, somehow that just clicked, and in a way that the other cycles systems patterns didn't click for you that you had read and studied?

Yeah, I'd done a little bit with a couple different versions of attachment patterns, and that certainly resonated in a lot of ways, but, um, I had a hard time getting that to connect with clients, even when we would look at various more customized patterns, and it still felt complicated. And to be able to just work through a pain cycle with the client and help them see, yes, this is what I do, and to understand how that reactivity impacted them specifically. Um, to pair that with self-regulation was the biggest aha moment where I was sold and I'm not looking back.

Yeah, game on. I resemble that remark.

Lance, what do you think about— because we don't get a chance usually to dive in too much interventions. Can we go there? Is that cool this early? Yeah, because I think—

let's go early.

I feel like Justin has a lot, and I like that he plays around with a lot of interventions, which I think that's something I can grow in. But I want to put you on the spot, Justin, and maybe share one because it's helpful to connect to another guest. You had sent me an email last week about Meegham's intervention of the sandbox and Psalm 40. And I just wondered, huh?

The quicksand?

Sorry, quicksand. Thank you. Not the sandbox. Quicksand. A little different. The quicksand and then Psalm 40 also. And I was just curious if you could share that with people listening, because I thought that was really helpful. And I like that you heard Meegham talk about that. And you went and tried to work on that, incorporate that. And so shout out, Megham, people are listening and working on the stuff that you're doing in the room.

Yeah, which even just was in Gordon— at Gordon-Conwell teaching about restoration therapy.

So, um, when I was, uh, playing around with, with quicksand, which has been super helpful explaining that to couples, um, just recognizing the, the importance of that self-regulating truth and being able to understand what it looked like to be on solid ground. And so to be able to connect that with some truth that actually helps people feel grounded and in that really helps to connect that back to the picture of getting out of the quicksand and being able to move from that point. Um, it's always interesting to see which of my younger couples haven't seen Princess Bride or Indiana Jones and don't as quickly connect to the, to the visual. But yeah, that idea of being able to stop flailing and then to be able to, to choose something healthier from that solid ground was really helpful.

And say something about Psalm 40 with it. Because we like the integration piece.

I have to be honest, I've slept since then and I don't remember the thought that I was telling you about. Let me see if I can jog my memory here.

I did say Psalm 40 instantly when I thought of it reminded me of the U2— I don't know if you remember the U2 song, but they did Psalm 40 about pulling yourself out of the miry pit.

Yeah, that's right.

You know, and so I— for me, even though you didn't get into it at length in the email, It was a beautiful, I think, psalm about this idea of being stuck and God reaching in and pulling us out of this miry pit, you know, and putting this thing on firm ground.

Well, and I resonated with when she was talking about that as a visual, even just the specific logistics of the fact that the vine doesn't necessarily pull you out, that you have to grab a hold of that truth and make use of it. And so it's not always going to be some magical response where you look at your truth and you go, oh, okay, I'm better. But sometimes it really takes some intentionality to go, so I say that I'm a child of God, so what? Like, what does that truth mean to me? Why does that make a difference at all? And to, to wrestle with that in a sense of grabbing onto the vine and pulling yourself out of the muck of the pain cycle and going, okay, the pain hasn't gone away. How am I going to utilize this truth in a way that's actually impactful?

Which I think we should explain the quicksand, um, intervention for those people that haven't gotten to hear Meagham's talk. Um, it's a 4-step intervention, um, and you know, using the image of, um, quicksand, this idea of, you know, when you're stuck in quicksand, um, you know, what is the rule with quicksand? You guys know?

Don't move, don't flail, don't—

yeah, stop, stop, right?

And I think every Scooby-Doo episode, I felt like they were stuck in quicksand.

Yeah, so, but yeah, that's the rule. You gotta stop. You can't go crazy. So if you're using the— this is a great, um, for when you're in 4-step work to talk about, hey, you're in quicksand and you're flailing, and when you flail, you get yourself deeper and deeper into trouble, right? So we need to stop, right? And when we stop, we have to say what we feel and say what we normally do, right? Um, so you say what you feel, say what you normally do, and then how do you get out of quicksand, right? You have to find something stable or solid and be able to grab onto it and pull yourself out, right? Um, and what she has us do, which I, I find this to be really exciting in therapy, is she has us say the truth. And as you say the truth, it's like you're reaching for something, right? You're putting your arm around the truth and you're saying you know, I am called, God is in control, I am loved, you know, um, and you're, you're calling out the truth, and then, then you're getting onto solid ground. So that's, that's the force, that's the quicksand intervention, um, for that.

Thank you for explaining that.

Yeah, I just kind of threw that out there, like, I, I can't assume now that we have— how many episodes do we have now?

66. Oh my gosh, you don't think everyone's listened to every single episode on bated breath?

I don't know, that's a lot of time to hang out with us. Yeah.

Okay, so, and I just want to throw it out there because I think, you know, you've been interested in interventions a while, and that was one that you had mentioned this week. Share with some of the interventions that you're excited about and that you've been working on recently.

Yeah, so there are a couple that come to mind. One of them that goes along with that 4 steps I don't remember who it was, another episode, somebody had mentioned that they always had their clients say their 4 steps when they got in the car at the beginning of the day and then to say them again before they got out of the car at the end of the day when they got home. And so that was 2 easy touchpoints to say their 4 steps. You know, one day I was sitting in car line waiting to pick up my daughter from school and I'm looking at the number hanger on the rearview mirror and I thought, you know, Why don't we put that together? So I bought some hang tags, drum roll, Amazon. Yeah, I put my 4 steps on it. And so I've given these out to couples and I said, okay, write your 4 steps, hang it on your steering wheel. When you get in the car in the morning, read your 4 steps before you get going. And then before you get out of the car at night, go through them again, hang them back on your steering wheel. And it's an easy reminder to say your 4 steps.

Wait, okay, for those of you that are listening online, Justin has— what are these? What are they called?

A mirror hanger.

They're, they're rearview mirror hangers. They're plastic.

Okay, a rear— so like if you're driving your car, the rearview mirror hanger thingy, he has written out his 4 steps on there. Um, so he's got 1, 2, 3, 4, and he has, he has each of his 4 steps written on there.

Yeah.

Um, And, uh, do you order those off Amazon? You just make them yourself?

No, I got a 25-pack off Amazon.

I'll have you send me the link. That's brilliant, by the way.

That's so interesting. Like, I like the reminder to just throw it up there.

Yeah, yeah. And even if you don't leave it on your rearview mirror, even if you put it on your steering wheel on your way in and out of your car, if you're uncomfortable with people seeing it, it can still be something that's physical that's it's even in the way before you get driving. And that's, that's a way to interrupt your, yeah, your daily flow.

It may have been me, it may have been someone else, but I remember too, because I had mentioned one time, and this was, this didn't come from me, someone at an intensive had talked about how their client had put on a 3x5 card above the, um, sunshade. Oh nice, 4 steps. And so every time they came to a stop, they'd pull the sunshade down and read it. Um, but I also— people are dysregulated a lot in, like, in the, in, in the transition, like leaving the house, coming back home after a long day. You see a lot of couples conflict in those transition pieces. And so I love, Justin, that you heard something, it sounds like, from somebody, and you took it a step further and ordered hangers for your clients to put their 4 steps on.

Yeah, and I mean, they're like, I don't know, a dollar or less a piece. So it's a little bit of investment upfront, but considering how easy of a way to help the clients out, that felt like a no-brainer.

I love that. It's such a, you know, like if you're ever presenting at a conference and you're talking about arguing, like I would say 1 out of every 7 presenter will talk about driving at some point. Like, like, that is like the cliché moment of things that couples argue about. Like, you're afraid to talk about sex, but it's easy to talk about driving, like the directions or whatever.

Like, so it's like, yeah, that's when we argue, which is, you know, this is the, the, you know, the, the point where I'm driving down DFW and all of a sudden I start seeing hangers in the mirror. I will know that This has taken off. Be awesome. It's so awesome. People in traffic looking up at their mirror hanger.

Taking a better place.

Yeah, Justin and I could put our, our coins together and we could put out a big ad on a billboard, just a picture of a mirror hanger with people's 4 steps.

There you go.

Let's do it.

Regulate yourself.

Yeah, we'll do it on the— we'll do it over here on the 121 North Dallas Tollway exchange.

That'll get a lot of views.

For people in LA, that's about a tenth of the traffic of the 405-101 exchange there. So, you know, whatever. I don't, I don't know what it's down in San Diego. I don't know what you guys— you guys have a beautiful life down there.

Yeah, we don't— we try not to talk about how little traffic we have in San Diego because we just don't want to have more people living here.

The only traffic Lance has is in the lineup at the surf on—

come on, man, it's a thing. That's— I need a 4-step, uh, hanger for my surfboard. Like, on there.

Nice. As soon as we get off, Justin will order something for you, something kind of waterproof. Okay, so got the door hanger intervention, which I love. Super easy to give to clients. Have clients responded well to that?

Yeah, I mean, I think that, um, like any practice, some of them are going to do it and some of them aren't. But it has helped to reinforce how important it is to take the time to do it. You know, we talk about creating a new neural pathway and what that looks like to take the easy path through a jungle or hack a new way with a machete. And it's that repetition and that time. And so to create that neuroplastic change takes the reps, going back to that floor time idea. And so if nothing else, it really helps them have another layer of reinforcement that it's worth doing.

I love the language of floor time. Yeah, that's like a really cool metaphor. It made me think about Lance too, who, who climbs and I think is getting back into climbing. But Alex Honnold, I mean, when I was reading an article before El Capitan, I mean, he had put 10 years just climbing on that wall. Oh yeah, with ropes, without some ropes, before he did his climb. And so There's so much practice that goes into us being good, like becoming good at something.

Right. Yeah, when you memorize your moves and you know the architecture of what you're climbing and all that, it makes a big difference.

It does. Okay, what else do you got? I feel like you got— okay, so your bag of tricks.

So the other one—

Your office.

Yeah, the other one that I really enjoy, I call who's holding the cup. It's an intervention that I use primarily for creating a visual for self-regulation, but it also has wound up being a really good visual for differentiation as well. Let me see if I can get this on my screen here. I have a cup with some dice. It doesn't really matter what you use, but the idea is something that you can stack and then a container. And so I'll start off and I'll stack up a few dice.

People, if you're not on video, hop to a video to watch this.

And the idea is that, um, if we say that these dice represent your emotions, and for the time being your emotions are in order, you're pretty calm, you're— if not in your peace cycle, you're at least not in your pain cycle. And something happens in life, could be a lot of different things, and knocks your dice over and it puts you into a state of dysregulation. And so it's pretty easy to say, okay, well, I want to stack my dice up, I want to get back to a place of peace. But sometimes before we got to do that, usually before we restack, we have to get our emotions contained. And so we have to get to a point where they're not strewn all over the floor. And that's a lot of fun if you're working with a client and you accidentally knock them halfway across the room. That actually helps kind of give that visual of dysregulation. And so the goal is that before—

he's talking about the dice, not the people, for the record.

That's right.

We would never— we would never want people to have violence with their clients.

That's a good disclaimer.

Knock the dice across the room, right?

The dice specifically. And so we want to get to the point where we're stacking them back up. And so the idea is, is that before we can get back to that point, we have to contain our emotions, we have to regulate the emotions. So then after I've demonstrated that, then I'll say, okay, and usually I'm working with couples, so I'll look at the wife and I'll say, if we're looking at your emotions, and I give the cup to to the husband, and I say, okay, let's say something happens in life, wife, and your emotions are knocked over, but he's holding your cup. How do you get your emotions regulated? And she goes, well, he's holding the cup. I go, right, so before you can stack them up, you have to get your emotions regulated. She goes, well, I guess I need to ask him. And this is where it's kind of similar in some ways to Tanner's Mason jar intervention. But in this case, what we're looking at is if you need the cup in order to contain your emotions and he's holding it, then how do you get the cup back from him? Well, I guess I need to ask him for it. Okay, what if he doesn't give it to you? Well, then I need to take it. Okay, what if he's having a bad day and he doesn't want to give it to you? And so we're building this tension around the fact that The wife doesn't have agency in this example if she's not holding the cup. And so then I take the cup from the husband and I give it to her, and I say, okay, now if you're holding your cup, can you get your dice back into the cup? And so she goes, yeah, and she grabs the dice, puts them into the cup. I go, if you're holding the cup, who has agency in that example then? And so then we talk about what it looks like if we go, well, let's say, husband, that you're the one that knocks over the dice. And so it's his fault that the dice are knocked over. Even if she wants him to help restack the dice, before she can do that, she needs to get her dice contained. And then she can ask him in a way that's more healthy and productive 'Hey, can you help me restack my dice?' And so then the visual becomes, who's holding the cup? Are you making it about it's his fault that your dice are knocked over, that your emotions are dysregulated, so he needs to be the one that contains your emotions? Or are you going to contain your own emotions first and then have a healthy dialogue in order to be able to stack those back up?

So good. That— I love that. It's the image of the stacking and like having to have this thing to regulate your, your emotions, um, and the double wordplay of dice and getting out of dicey situations.

There you go.

Um, so, you know, uh, but that's so great.

Yeah, I felt like I was watching a magic trick almost with the camera down the table, like Voilà! It's, um, it's really inspiring. Like, I'm thinking about— well, yeah, Tanner did some stuff, Meegan did some stuff, DeeDee did some stuff with the rope, talking about Relate Strong. Yeah, Jennifer and, um, oh my God, Lorenzo, thank you. Um, and, uh, I think Corey had the Lego set out. Yeah, right, and stuff like There are so many people out there in RT doing like really cool interventions in their room.

It's just awesome. It's fun too that this has kind of taken on a life of its own because I did this, you know, I kind of played around it with my wife as well. And she and I come from backgrounds where we both take on responsibility for other people. And so then it wound up being shorthand to go, well, it sounds like you're holding their cup for them. And so then it became language around differentiation as well to say, are you giving your cup to somebody else and saying it's your job to regulate you? But also, are you taking other people's cups for them and trying to be responsible for their emotions when it has to be them that's holding their cup too? And so it's kind of become that little reminder to say, hey, are you only holding your cup and not other people's?

Yeah, I love it. Lance is going to be using this. He's gonna go out and buy a cup after this.

I have dice downstairs. I'm, I'm already— I'm gonna grab them before I leave, leave to get to the office today. He's like, all my, all my therapists are gonna be like, they're, they're all gonna be wanting cups and dice too. It's gonna be fun.

They'll be shaking their head. Uh, here comes Lance with another intervention.

Thanks, Justin.

I'll hold your bets for you, DeeDee.

And we can have another plenary breakout where everyone just brings all their interventions. We just play around with them in a room.

Oh, we could call like the sandbox or floor time or— floor time.

Yeah, yeah. All right, DeeDee's gonna be like, you guys be quiet, I got enough work on my hands.

That'll be fun.

I know, right?

Floor time. Yeah.

Have you ever, and again, this, I mean, obviously you probably can't do this because there's probably, especially you're a grad student, once you go through ethics class, everyone's freaked out about stuff in the room, you know? But do you ever have clients, couples get up and practice any type of dancing, even if they're not dancers, like any movement? Has that ever come out because you're like a dancer and you're trying to help them get in their bodies at all?

I haven't gotten over my initial awkwardness of trying to apply all the things that I'm learning to where I can feel a little more relaxed in that. I have noticed when I'm teaching dance and we'll do a Valentine's dance at our church. And so I get like one opportunity a year to play around with that. That is a natural place for me to bring in relationship concepts. I haven't as naturally reversed it to bring in some of those into the sessions with clients. Part of that too is the room is pretty small, but I have a feeling that as I start to get a little bit more self-confident in that, then that'll naturally kind of meld back together.

Yeah, I think I really like dance when talking about us-ness, that there is a, when you're dancing, Um, which I'm gonna butcher this, so you'll— like, Justin, you're gonna have to correct every single thing I say. But like, Jennifer and I went— my uncle's, he's big into dance, so he gave us some dance lessons way back in the day. And I was really surprised because you, you, you have this idea of like what it means to lead. And what I learned in dancing is that you're both leading one another. There, there is like, there's this ability like to like if you like push your hand in a certain way, that means that there's a signal to do this, or pull your hand back. So there's this, there's, there's this conversation that's happening, um, throughout with dance, um, when, when you're like doing whatever it's— what is it? I don't even know the language, but, um, floor time. Let's go floor time. But like, like this, this idea of there's, there's a conversation that's going on with your bodies Um, and, you know, like, sometimes you might be too aggressive with your lead where you're like, you have to follow every single thing I say, and then your person's not gonna like you as much. Um, so yeah, I like that with like talking through us-ness. We used to do that in our premarital class that we do at our church where we'd finish it off with like a dance lesson, um, and kind of talk about making an us.

There's a lot of mutuality, and it certainly lends itself to speaking about the horizontal relationship versus the vertical. If you're looking at parenting versus partnering, and even though the guy is technically the leader on the dance floor, if you're turned around and traveling backwards, then your partner still has to help steer or you're going to back into somebody sometimes. And so recognizing that there's a constant sensitivity to each other that there is still feedback and information coming from the lady even when the guy is leading. And all of that has to do with trust. All of that has to do with not making it only about yourself. And so it's easy to draw parallels between identity and love and also trust and feeling like your partner isn't going to run you into the other dancers on the floor. So there's, there's a lot there. There's a lot that can come out of that. I haven't played around with it a lot yet, but I am excited to.

I think we just did. That was good. Yeah, you hit the two pillars right there: identity and trust.

The only dance I regularly do on occasion is the moonwalk across my kitchen floor. So really? Yeah, I mean, my aunt made me a sequins white glove when I was a young kid. Mm. That says something. That means I can only dance alone. I'm not very good with partnering up, I guess. I stumble.

Any—

you know, this is good. I'm digging this. Any other interventions that you want to throw out here that you're playing around with or thinking through?

The only other one that I've started to do, and I've only tried it once in a session, we've done it in some of our group settings in class. Is kind of borrowing the mousetrap exercise from WinShape Teams, where you would take a mousetrap and put it between two people's hands, and you'd have to walk around a loop and keep the pressure between it. And so that was about teamwork. But one of the things that I've started to play around with is talking about consensus versus compromise. And if the idea of consensus is that it's win-win for both of you. And especially when you're looking at your spouse and you don't really want your spouse to lose, that's not a, a great option if that means that you win and they lose. And so even just to put the mousetrap between your hands, if you don't both work on it together, even if one person has the spring facing away from them and they take their hand away, it's still going to snap on your partner. And if you care about your partner, that's not really what you want. And so to really consider the idea of consensus as it being a win-win solution instead of something that only one of you wins and the other person loses kind of drives home that idea of, of aiming for a goal that you both can live with.

We're also not recommending mousetraps in the therapy room. I, I see that look on Lance's face like, where's this gonna go?

Yeah, well, and so to that point, I've been able to get away with that in a group class where I haven't done that a lot.

Yeah, no, that was something actually I learned at the Hideaway when I was working with, uh, Todd Sandell, who, who kind of taught me the intensive model, that We're looking for— compromise is not usually a win-win, you know, for couples, right? I think someone I remember at the intensive gave an example of, let's say you want to go to a nice steakhouse one night for dinner and your partner wants to go to a nice Mexican food. So you just agree to go to McDonald's because that's the compromise. It's not really a win-win for anybody, you know? I mean, that's a poor analogy there, but Todd always talked about when you play doubles tennis, you're on the same side of the net. And if you get mad and slam the ball against the net, like you both lose, you know? And so this idea of like, we're both on the same side of the net, we're both playing to win here. I don't know if there's any other metaphors you guys have used in terms of that win-win in your offices at all. I used to have a ping pong table, so, I would sometimes get couples on the same side of the ping pong table to like model that. I don't have a mousetrap.

That's pretty funny.

But us-ness, really, you're kind of playing around with here, it sounds like, Justin, just this idea of couple.

For sure. Yeah. And that's where even bouncing around the idea of us-ness oneness but not sameness. And so how do you celebrate your individuality without merging into one indistinct thing? And how do you work towards goals like Terry talks about with how us-ness is its own distinct persona, but you don't lose the two individuals that are in it too? And so that's even kind of played into some of my reading around Trinity in the last year, and what does that look like to have both of those?

Let's take a hard turn there because I know Lance and I both love theology. We're all seminary students or graduates.

Nerd alert.

Nerd alert. Our theological hero, Dr. Anderson, um, all right, Anderson. Ray Anderson at Fuller. All of, you know, he studied under, um, Torrance.

Huh? Torrance.

Torrance, thank you, who studied under Karl Barth, so was a big Trinitarian. Barth might not be a good name at Dallas Seminary though, so we'll have to discuss that later. Um, but let's, let's talk about Trinitarianism and theology and how you see that playing into the work you're doing as a therapist.

It struck me as, as a really important both-and, that we are seeking both unity, oneness, and at the same time still celebrating individuals. And so when I started to look more into the Trinity, and I grew up Catholic, and so that was something that I was familiar with, but didn't necessarily appreciate. Um, and so understanding how celebratory that is, and to look at the nature of God and go, there is love for others, and, and each member of the Trinity is celebrating the other. And so there's agape sacrificial love, there's unity, and that's an important aspect of the triune God. But they're still distinct persons. And so I think in the context of relationship then, and especially in marriage, that that winds up being a really valuable, um, image to kind of explore. And so when I started, um, when I started taking classes for my master's, one of the books that was really impactful to me was Anatomy of the Anatomy of the Soul by Kirk Thompson, and talking a lot about interpersonal neurobiology and the power of witnessing somebody else's story and their truth and how that reacts with healing really helped me start to value what community can be. And I've experienced that, um, in our men's ministry at our church and in our small group now. And so then to have that in counterpoint in some aspects to this self-regulation, and what does it look like to self-regulate in order to show up well in a relationship? And there were times where it felt like that was kind of at, at odds. Should we be emphasizing self-regulation or should we be emphasizing community? And so when I started to put that in the context of Trinity, then it doesn't have to be either/or, but it's both/and. And so what does that look like to really celebrate the unity as well as the distinction?

Yeah. Did you ever get into, um, the Athanasian, uh, Creed? Did you ever get into that one, either of you?

Not a whole lot.

I mean, it's been a while. Yeah, say something about it.

Let me pull it up here.

While you're looking, here's another great book, um, who— she's also a Bardian— Theology and Pastoral Counseling. And she looks at all of our work as pastoral counselors from a Trinitarian perspective. And the last couple times as I've talked about the forgiveness model at a marriage group— last week I spoke at ReEngage and they wanted me to talk on talk on forgiveness again. Shout out Lance and Jen. I used one of their slides with their play of justice, love, and power, but she says this. I just want to read it to you guys because I think it's really pretty. This makes for a good podcast when both Lance and I are looking up stuff at the same time, but she basically says, when we work with people, we have to remember them from a Trinitarian lens, and that is that they are made in the image of God. That Jesus has died for them and redeemed them, and the Holy Spirit is currently at work in their lives, and that we have to hold those three things in tension at the same time. And I've always thought that as a beautiful way to— working with clients, but in my own marriage, that my wife is made in God's image, that God has redeemed her and saved her, and God is at work in her life. And, and for myself, I'm made in God's image, I have been redeemed, and the Holy Spirit is at work. And I don't know, to have that Trinitarian image in my mind as I encounter the other person, I don't know, it's been really, really life-changing for me. Silence.

I just made you guys— tell us how that, like, how the impact on your life with it. Like what? Like when, as you look at that dynamic, like, yeah, how does that change the way you interact?

I don't— I mean, I think the key is holding all three in tension. I think it's easy sometimes to be with clients or be with a person and spouse and treat them in a certain way where you forget that they hold the imago dei, they're part of the imago dei, you know. And it's also easy to work, be with people, or be in a relationship and to think that they'll never change. And to remind that the Holy Spirit is at work in their life right now, you know. And so I think for me, I don't know, I just, I have to hold those three, have to be present. I have to remind I'm God, I'm made in God's image, I've been saved, and the Holy Spirit is not finished yet, is at work.

And that's good.

I can hold that for myself and for the people that I work with. I think there's always hope. In the room, you know. So anyways, as you were looking, I think if people are listening, I think that's a really good book looking at pastoral counseling from a Trinitarian approach. That's Deborah Van Dusen-Hunsinger. Her and her husband are, are theologians at Princeton University.

She's got a lot of good stuff, man. Yeah, I like her stuff. Um, I found it. Do you want to riff on the— on this at all? What, what, what Rhett just said a little bit more?

Yeah, say something about— no, Athanasius.

So this— I, I was at a church and they, they're like, we're gonna do the Creed. And it was like, I opened up the, the Creed and it's like super long. I was like, oh my gosh, this is going to be interesting. And it's got some really crazy, like, like, oh, this is interesting. Um, uh, I'll just read parts of it because it's, it is a lot to digest. Um, and this is kind of in the beginning. Uh, now this is the, the Catholic faith that we worship one God in Trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit is still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one. Their glory equal, their majesty co-eternal. Love that, co-eternal. Uh, what quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable, the whole— the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is is immeasurable. So it goes on and it kind of like links, links them together, talks about them in different ways. Um, for those of you, um, that like creeds and stuff like that, it's worthwhile. I'll read this one last part. It says, and yet there are not three eternal beings, there is but one eternal being. So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated, immeasurable being. So it's like this— they acknowledge the parts but also the whole. And I think the, the element of, like, when we're doing us-ness work, there is this thing that— of coming together, but then the distinctness of the, of the parts that we have. Um, and, and the beauty of what happens in marriage when we come together, um, with one another in marriage, um, but also the beauty that we have apart from one another. Uh, so I, I think you can really, um, as I said, geek out on this pretty bad. Um, but yeah, that's kind of what was on my mind.

That connects with a couple of the sessions in Relate Strong as well, um, looking at personalities and spiritual gifts. And so to be able to celebrate those unique differences that each person brings to the relationship and how that contributes to the us-ness as well. And that, to your point, it's, it's both those distinctions as well as the unification.

Yeah, totally.

And, you know, people who are into it— I mean, this is what the whole debate in 325 with the Nicene Creed was over, you know. They were debating, is, is it of the same substance, Jesus, or the Arian view, which was a different subordinate substance, and so when you read the Nicene Creed, you know, in the language around, "I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God," I mean, that was a major thing in the church that we are a part of that we didn't realize we're a part of in terms of our belief, and I know that's totally geeking out, but it does play out in how I think we think about relationships. And how we think about subordination versus equality in relationships, even.

Sub what?

Subordinate— subordination. Okay, like in how we think about equality and working in relationships. And, um, I know there's different psychological, theological views on that, but I think like and the view that we all practice in Mindful Marriage, we, I think, practice out of this idea that we're all equal, all working on our own emotional regulation and giving to the relationship out of that. And I can't say it very eloquently, but those theological views many years ago play out, I think, even in the work that we do today. We're just not aware of it.

Yeah, no, I think you're, you're on the money there. I love how It's so funny when you look at the order of the Bible in Ephesians, like where they start a new chapter at Ephesians 5. Um, but like Ephesians, I think it's 4:29, um, says like you have all the submit, like, you know, wives submit to your husband, submit to your wives. But like the scripture, like the verse right before that says like, which this should be the start of it, it should say submit to one another out of reverence to the Lord. Like, that's— that is— that is— that is the command that we have. Like, we must submit to one another out of reverence to the Lord.

And that goes back to the Trinity and each member glorifying the other members of the Trinity. And so that model is throughout. Yeah.

What do you—

what do you call it at the end of a dance, like when you have like that, like perfect closeout? Like, what do you call that, Justin?

Usually that's a dip. You gotta dip your partner and show her off.

Yeah, I think we just did that, dude.

I— we're gonna have to nerd out on theology when we all get together at the summit in March.

Yeah, for sure. You know, dude, what a good episode. I, I really enjoyed having you on, Justin.

Thank you, it's been a pleasure. I appreciate the opportunity.

Is there anything you want to leave the audience with? Any closing words? I'm going to put all the links up where people can find you.

And dude, RO is going to be so busy on this one. He, you know, RO, he like puts like the things up there in the— at the end of the episode. It's gonna be like, we quote— we, we reference so many different sources.

Uh, uh, I would just say, um, I'm looking forward to the summit. It has been a, um, I feel like I've gotten a master's course in an, in RT just listening to you guys and going through all the episodes. And so in addition to reading the book and the Relate Strong material and all of that, I got however many hours, 60 hours worth of listening to material on integration and interventions in the last year, and I felt prepared walking into the sessions even as student, and that was a huge blessing to me. So I'm really appreciative for the work that you guys have done with the podcast.

Yeah, thank you.

Thanks, man. Yeah, I, I, I'm astounded that you're like still a student. Like, you, you feel very much in the flow, so you're gonna love this work.

Yeah.

And if Lance and I can just get, um, what's it called when a school gets their certification to teach? Um, what's that process called?

Accreditation.

Credit. If we will be accredited as the RT Dialogue Graduate School, not to compete with the Asher Graduate School of Counseling, by the way.

Or maybe we could.

All right, and, um, I'm gonna leave you all with a little cliffhanger. Make sure you go out and Google perichoresis. P-E-R-I-C-H-O-R-E-S-I-S. Where Eugene Peterson talks about the Divine Dance. We'll unpack that later.

That's great.

All right, cheers everyone.

Thank you.