Season 2 | Episode 69 | Forgiveness Through the Lens of the RT Model with Rhett Smith & Lance Ahl

What's up, dude?

Bro, how are you? Welcome to the season of two.

Yeah, season 2.

I'm good.

How was your Easter?

Dude, my Easter was great. We went down to the beach. So our church, um, it's pretty fun. We, we do a, um, beach, um, service, and then they do baptisms at the beach. So, um, my wife was out there baptizing people, and I was trying to wrangle my daughter, which is really fun. Um, we did rock stacks. You ever do rock stacks?

Yeah, yeah.

I feel like it's really therapeutic. I think I want to lean— I want to start doing rock stacks for like, you know, like as a mindfulness practice and therapy.

You're officially talking about a cairn, right? C-A-I-R-N, right? Yeah.

So some people call it rock stacking. The classic, like if you're, if you're hiking, like they're called cairns. Yeah.

Which if people don't know, they're like the kind of often rounded rocks that are stacked as markers through like hike, or you see them a lot in, um, well, you see them around a lot of places, but often I think about like some of the, um, countries up in the United Kingdom when you see like a long through hike in Scotland or Ireland, you'll see like these cairns as like markers and stuff.

Pretty cool. When I was rock climbing, like, that's how they would mark how to get down. My daughter, this is I'll probably have to send this to RO, but— Oh yeah. Some cute little rock stacks. I like to do goofy ones, so.

Yeah, we are recording this 2 days after Easter, but you won't be hearing this till probably next week, people. So, but that's what's been going on. What is it— what's therapeutic about the rock stacks, you think?

Well, I think it's therapeutic because like, first you're like looking at rocks and you're, you're kind of sorting them out. You're trying to figure out the ones that you can put on top of the other. Um, and I think there's easy ways to stack rocks sometimes, um, but to see how many you can stack to like make it awkward and stack them, I think it's really fun. Um, and then once you do that, you can kind of lean into how is this symbolic of you trying to get your life back together, you know?

Interesting. Yeah.

Um, And then if you rock stack with me at the beach, the, the next fun game to do is you take rocks and you try and knock over your rock stack that you just made. And so it's like a temporary art installation.

So I love it, I love it. I did not do rock stacks this year. My daughter came home from college for Easter for a few days, so that was really good. We hosted Easter at our house, and, um, spring just feels really busy. It feels like everything's kind of cruising right now.

Dude, we have a lot coming up in the RT community.

I know you have a few announcements. I do too. You want to start?

Yeah, so first off, all you Level 2 trained people, we have a research project going on. That's right, research. You know what research does is it makes RT more accessible to people that need it to apply for empirically proven models. So we want to ask you to reach out to Mike Bishop. His contact will be in the, um, in the Substack notes, uh, and it's probably on the screen right now, um, as I talk, because I know RO, he loves to put stuff on the screen. So yeah, make sure you, uh, send stuff to, um, make sure you send stuff to Mike Bishop or follow the link that he has for us. And, um, it's, it's a really easy survey. I think there's like 6 domains that you go through. Um, fill it out, uh, and let's make RT more accessible to everybody.

Yeah, and we'll put the link in the show notes, but if people are curious and they want to reach out to Mike Bishop, Dr. Mike Bishop, I'm just going to read his email out here as well, but it's rbishop@txwes.edu. rbishop@txwes.edu. And he's up north of me at Texas Wesleyan University. So awesome he's doing that training. Got a training coming up you want to reference?

Yeah, um, so for all of our Northeasters, yeah, people, uh, Terry is going to be doing a Level 1 training Guys, if you haven't been level 1 trained yet, um, you got to go to get to learn from the guy, Terry. He's not going to be doing them much longer, guys. Get in there, get your level 1 training from Terry Hargrave, um, up in New York. Uh, do you got the dates for me, buddy?

The dates are— let me look them up. What's also cool about that, it's— I think Michelle Park is essentially hosting that. Oh, and I believe— I don't want to speak out of turn here— I think she's kind of put that together, and it sounds like it's a really cool location in New York City. So that's awesome. Those dates are April 17th and 18th, Level 1. And then Michael Cox also has Level 1 training the following week in Austin, Texas, the 24th through 25th.

Is there anything else happening on the 24th and the 25th that you think we should know about?

Yes, we are hosting— I think it's our first ever, like, kind of a gathering, RT gathering in Austin. It's going to be, um, at Hill Country Bible Church. I was blanking. Uh, Brian Sneed, uh, Stacy Rachmanis, they've been really grateful and hosting us there. And we are going to do dinner out Friday night, probably a great Mexican food in Austin. And then Saturday we were doing a 7-hour CEU training with Eric Salwin, Dr. Eric Salwin of Dallas Theological Seminary. And we're going to talk about forgiveness So links will be in the show notes. You have to register for that. Uh, there is a fee for that, $50, really minimal. Um, and we're excited to have that. So, and then not a lot of information yet, but it's going to be here fast. First weekend in March, 2027.

The Summit.

The Summit.

It's the Summit, guys. Guys, I am on the inside, okay? I don't always get to be on the inside, but I can just tell you, I am hearing about some amazing speakers that are gonna be there. One of 'em, or actually you and I both got invited to. So like, guys, it's gonna be amazing. The topics are gonna be life-changing type of stuff, like really, um, perfect application for wherever you are therapeutically. Um, the whole community is going to be gathered there. Um, you're going to leave this summit with your— like, your toolbox will be filled. That's all I got to say. The toolbox will be filled. You're going to be intervention, um, you know, you know, theoretical understanding, uh, you're— it's going to be next level. Let's just put it that way.

Yeah, it's going to be awesome. And it's gonna be really great just to see everybody at Pepperdine, Malibu.

So yeah, I offered to do a session, um, I'm gonna call it a surf session. All right, I think there's like a Dom Patrol. Why not?

Did you really off— is that one of the gather— are we gonna have that?

I offered it. I don't know if people are gonna do it or not. But I will do a Dom Patrol for sure.

We'll come out and watch you surf and skip— we'll skip— we'll stack rocks.

Yes! Oh dude, you're such a pastor. So great.

I like, I like it. Well, all right, got a big topic today, Lance.

Yeah, what episode are we on today?

Episode 69. We are Crushing it.

Holy cow. 69. That's incredible. We're like almost to 100.

Our goal was to be at 100 by Summit. I think we'll be there by the end of the year. So yeah, I did say to Lance yesterday, I'm like, let's, we'll just do this for at least 10 years and can about 500 episodes. I just kind of threw that out randomly.

I don't know.

That might've been overwhelming.

I think, I think, uh, if we do 500 episodes, we're gonna have to really continue to up our game.

But hopefully by, you know, hopefully there'll be so many new people in the RT community, we just have new guests.

Yeah, that'd be cool.

So awesome. Yeah, well, I had reached out, and one of the topics that I thought I wanted to talk about was the topic of forgiveness. And a couple reasons why. One is probably in the— I guess it was the fall at a local church here. I often speak at their re:engage ministry, and they asked me to come in and speak on topic. And I chose forgiveness because it seems like forgiveness is something that we all deal with in our own lives and we work with couples. And I got up and spoke, and I laid out the forgiveness framework through Restoration Therapy. And I also used a helpful handout that Lance and his wife Jen have created to kind of think through the different, the different relational dynamics that happen in the forgiveness journey. And I did that talk. And afterwards, people were like, Wow, that, that was really like impactful and powerful. And so they asked me to come do it again a few weeks ago, and I'm like, you want me to— I'm like, I don't mind doing a different conversation, a different topic. Like, I can do a different topic. Like, they're like, no, that was like really impactful. I think you need to do it again. Wow. And what happens is in ReEngage, you know, different groups come in and they do like a 2 to 3 week topic on forgiveness. So I got up did the forgiveness talk again at the event in Austin. Dr. Eric Salwyn is doing a 7CU on forgiveness, and I know he's been working on unpacking that a lot and, you know, diving deep into that. And we are hoping in a few months, um, to have Terry back on and a few other guests to walk through the forgiveness piece. But I wanted to, I think, just talk about forgiveness because it it's something that we have to deal with personally in our own lives all the time.

Through it. This guy messes up a lot.

Yeah, for sure, dude.

I'm talking about me this time.

I know you are. I know you're talking about you. I'm talking about you too.

Okay, good.

No, it's something in my own personal life we've had to walk through a lot at deeper levels in different seasons. And then when I have a couple in here and we're doing work, it's like there is a forgiveness journey that needs to take place. And I sometimes struggle as a therapist to figure out how to— with everything you're doing in the room, you know, with the pain and peace cycle and everything, also to think about how to bring in this element of forgiveness in a way that for me just flows naturally. And I think there are ways to make it flow naturally, but then sometimes it feels like I'm bringing in this addendum piece and I'm trying to put pieces together. And I think I step on my own feet sometimes and stumble. And so that's why I want to talk about forgiveness. I want to ask you some questions about it. I want to talk about some interventions we can do.

Sweet.

What are your thoughts when I think of, you know, said, hey, let's talk about forgiveness? Like, what comes to mind for you when you think about this journey?

I mean, honestly, it's probably one of the biggest changes for me was doing the Like, when I, when I took serious Terry's work on forgiveness and looking at it for my own life, um, and really dealing with, um, the violations of love and trust that I've had in my own life and, um, putting them on, you know, the block and saying, okay, how do I restore the love and trust that was lost in all these different areas? Um, it really changed a lot of the way that I interacted. I think I had a lot of destructive entitlement that was flowing through me. And with regards to what it— like, the dynamic, what I've been through my own life, and which caused way more havoc. I continued the violations of love and trust to others. So, um, yeah, so when you asked me to do it, I was like stoked. I mean, it's probably— I love the work, um, and I've seen it in so many lives that I work with, like, where it's like, oh, now I actually feel It's not like, oh, I forgave him because I have to, right? But there's like this thing where like, no, I feel like put back together again. Like there is this thing that is I am put back together again, which to me is— that's the beauty of the work.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What do you think would be helpful as we kind of enter into this conversation? Like, I had a couple of thoughts. One, I was going to maybe lay out kind of how I talked about it with these couples and see what you think. Yeah, well, we can look just at the RT piece first and then also talk about like the different addendum kind of item you've brought into the forgiveness journey. What do you, what do you think, as people are listening, is the best way to kind of walk through this?

I mean, we could talk through, you know, and this is, this is my stuff, like my addendum of what I've done based off of Terry's work and Paul Tillich. Um, so, um, I, I call it a diagnostic tool, um, the, the thing I created. Um, and then, um, the, the next thing I, I like to use is, um, the, um, Terry's Four Stations.

Yeah.

Um, that are kind of pulled out into the, the realms of salvage and restoration. Um, so I think we could do what— I think we could land on one of those if we wanted to go deep with one, or we could kind of do a surface. What would you like you.

Yeah, let me— I want to walk through— it's only a few slides. I want to walk through kind of what I presented. Okay. I want you to kind of like talk about it. Yeah, because I, I love this. I'm gonna start with the quote I put up on the slide from Henry Nouwen, if you don't mind. I read— yeah, it's from one of his journal entries. He says, forgiveness is the name of love practiced among people who love poorly. The hard truth is that all people love poorly. We need to forgive and be forgiven every day, every hour, increasingly. That is the great work of love among the fellowship of the weak, that is the human family. So I just, I love that idea that forgiveness is the name of love practiced among the people who love poorly. And so I set that out with these couples I was, you know, talking to. And immediately— and there'll be a slide on the— if you're watching this video that I use, again, it's a slide that Lance and his wife Jennifer put together to kind of— for them to think through some of the dynamics that are at play on the journey of forgiveness. And Lance pulls from the work of the German theologian Paul Tillich. And the three dynamics are justice, love, and power. Now talk about that. Like, how— I know Terry talks about Tillich, but how did you and Jen come to this idea of like, hey, this is a good diagnostic tool? And, and talk more about this justice, love, and power and why those are things that we need to be thinking about.

Well, I think number one is I think we need a diagnostic tool because I think people come into therapy and they don't know where they're struggling. Um, and I think this is, first off, anything— and it's quick and easy diagnostic tool. It's not like we have to spend multiple sessions to discover where the pain is. Um, I think so that's, that's why we kind of created this. Um, and I actually initially did this at Fuller um, with Corey Page, um, okay, a long time ago. And then Jennifer and I have spoken all over the place, um, on forgiveness, um, using this, um, slide. And, and Jen, Jen made everything look so much better. She's amazing. Um, but so first off, the diagnostic is kind of to help people to see, um, this realm of how they need to get better. So, um, on the diagnostic, what we're looking at is we're just kind of looking at the three, um, elements that Paul Tillich names when it comes to forgiveness, which is first we have justice, right? And when you look at justice up there, um, justice is all about, um, when there is a wrong, it needs to be righted. Um, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the unhealthy, like, if it by itself, right? Right. Yeah, yeah. So like, how do we make amends? What is the thing that makes it right, you know? And how do we go about, you know, there's damage that's been done, so how do we make it right? That's the big question of justice. And people that struggle with justice, I find that there's usually a lot of anger with them, and they're really frustrated about what happened. It's unfair will be like a common retort from someone that's struggling with justice.

Yeah, and one of the things you put in the slide is that people who really struggle with the Justice piece, it's kind of past-oriented. They're stuck in the past a lot, and they're owned by this agenda, you said, of like, I need restitution here, things need to be— there needs to be justice in this situation.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, each of these, if you just do— because we need all three at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Um, uh, but yeah, that, that's the unhealthy retort. Um, and then The next one we have there is love, right? Love is this idea, and I think this is really important. This is kind of what you're like, the really found in the Henry Nouwen quote there is, um, love is all about trying to understand, um, our violator. You know, when we've been victimized and we've been through pain and like, it's really important, um, that we would have compassion on those that have hurt us, you know. We just celebrate Easter, you know, when Christ is up on the cross, you know, He says, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." This is a really important part of forgiveness because I think sometimes we look at the person that's violating us and we take it so personal, right? It's like, oh man, they're just out to get me, da da da da da. But what love does is it really takes us down this journey of trying to understand our violator. It's really hard, right? That's not exciting work to, you know, um, and we're not asking you to watch a bunch of true crime shows or anything like that. Um, but what we are asking is that, that you would take time to kind of lean into this idea of like, um, what, what created the monster. Um, once, once we realize what created the monster, um, we start to see that this is a broken person, right? And I can see this person as another broken person um, just like Henry Nouwen points out there, there's this freedom for me to be like, oh, like, I don't have to take it personal. I have to be afraid as much anymore. Um, uh, so love— usually people that struggle with love, they're asking why. Like, they're like, why would you do this? Why? I don't understand why. How could the person do this to somebody? If you hear that question in therapy, that means that this person is trying to give the flow of love to their client, or to their victimizer.

And one of the things that you say, if we're so focused on love though, right? I just gotta love this person, be compassionate, that it's possible that at times then um, you can fall into this like, just, you know what, let's just forgive and forget and move on. And you can get stuck in some unhealthy patterns.

Is that right? Yeah, yeah, that's where you like turn into a doormat, you know. Like, this is, you know, what we're trying to do is we're trying to make things right, we're trying to move towards a healing. So just love on its own when it comes to forgiveness isn't enough, right? So that's just not fix it.

Yeah, there's Justice, it's an important component. There's Love, it's an important component. And right, and we got another one, but we're trying to balance these components, right? They are working together.

Exactly.

Some people are camping down on only one. Yeah, and maybe missing some other pieces of it. So there's Justice, Love, and then finally is Power.

So power is this idea when it comes to forgiveness that, um, the— we have to make things right, um, and for the future, right? We have to learn our lesson, we have to set boundaries, we have to reset the stack, um, where, um, we are, um, balancing out this power differential. So the victim now has power, um, in, in, in the scene so that we have this sense that this will not happen again. Right? Um, oftentimes this client will come in the room that if they just struggle with power, what they're going to be dealing with is a lot of anxiety, right? So they're going to be very fearful. When is it going to happen again? You know, what's it— what's, what's going to happen next? You know, um, you know, there's the old saying, you know, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Like, there's this desire, like, they— like, where, where it pulls itself out into like an unhealthy place. It's like they've like continue to narrow themselves into a single hole where nobody can hurt them anymore. So power can have this really damaging effect when we don't allow it to be balanced out by the others as well.

I see it. It's almost like I tell— I told this group, it's like living with this like radar system on, hypervigilant, you know, scanning for danger. I, I even made the comment, I think this— I see it in the uptick of people like, um, tracking spouses and everything's tracked and I'm not gonna let you fool me again, you know, like just constant vigilance. So this is what I love about this diagram. You got Justice, Love, and Power, these three pieces.

Yeah.

And you're saying all three really have to be addressed, right? To move into forgiveness, right?

Because if you just have two of them, right, let's think about this. If you just have Justice and Power, right, if those two are just playing out, what that is, all that is, is like our court system, right? Lock you up, throw away the key, right? Um, wrong is made right and you're safe, but there is not this element of love that is being addressed, right? Love and Power This is often the house where, you know, molestations, or like, we don't talk about the past. Like, we don't— no, we don't talk about it. Oh no, no, like, no, everything's safe, everything's good, but we never talk about what happened in the past, right? That, that unhealthy dynamic. Um, so that, that's like this, like, where secrets are kept. Um, oftentimes with Justice and love, where there's no power at play, that's kind of like the house of the addict. Right, where we don't have— it's like this continual, um, flow of, um, of people falling back and not learning their lesson, right? Um, so this would be also with abuse too, right? You know, this is like any, any crazy cycle where we don't learn our lesson. So if you have an abusive person or, or somebody that's, um, on drugs, uh, that's where like power is so important in order to make sure that we learn our lesson and don't do it again.

Dude, I love it. And on the graph that you and Jen made, it's— it's these three, and we'll have it up on the, the video here, but it's these three inter— you know, interlocking concentric circles. Yeah, justice, love, and power. And there's a circle in the middle of all three. And you're, you're saying, okay, peace, right, is found at the intersection, right? That, yeah, there has to be this balance approach for us to experience deep, deep forgiveness.

Yeah, yeah. And what I'll do with my clients, I'll draw this in the room real quick with them.

Yeah.

And I'll say, where do you struggle? You know, what needs to be made right therapeutically for you? And it's pretty amazing, you know, like, I'll ask them on both ends of the spectrum, like, when you've wronged somebody, what do you want? You know, um, and when you've been wronged, what do you want? Um, so it's really fascinating to see how they talk about it. And then what we have is we have, we have measures to really work through with our client, um, in order to help them to get healed and to apply interventions that help with those dynamics.

Yeah, I'm trying to remember the exact episode, but it was our first episode that we did. I think it was episode 11 or something with, uh, Michael Pachuco. And we had talked about this forgiveness piece. And, you know, after we had talked about it, I, I used it in session that week.

Yeah.

And asked the couple who are, who are going on this, this journey of forgiveness where they found themselves, like, gravitating towards easily and towards of just love and power, and what, and where they struggle to move towards, you know. And it was so eye-opening for them to say, you know, I don't want to talk about the past, can we just move on? And their person is like, you know, I don't— you know, I don't want to talk about the past forever. Yeah, can't you just love me, you know?

Yeah.

And for them to have a conversation around these elements of justice, love, and power, and where they're either being held up or, you know, stuck, or— I was gonna use the word empowered, which is, you know, you talk about, um, I have this slide in front of me, certain positions that, um, justice helps us deal with the past, what has happened. Yeah, love helps us deal with the present, living day-to-day with compassion, and power helps us deal with the future, that we're taking this empowered stance from now on. And all three are working together.

Exactly. Yeah, that would be another thing to look at for clients, another diagnostic clue for you. If they're stuck in the past, then it's usually a Justice dynamic. Not always, but it usually is. If they're like, I— like, they're, they're— they look at them and they're— there's this fear of them that comes up immediately, or something that like, like juices them up weird, um, that would be a love dynamic that's probably going on for them, or if they're worried about, you know, the future and when it's going to happen next. That's always power to me.

You look at this and it's so helpful, but then you also look at it and you ever have the feeling like, man, forgiveness is messy, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. Well, I think what happens in therapy is we're looking for the moment of forgiveness. Yeah. But we— but what ha— that's what our clients want. And they'll even say it, I forgave him. But I'm like, no, you didn't. You didn't forgive them. You're in— you're in the process of forgiving them, but you have not forgiven this person. Uh, you're— this is the work of forgiveness, and it's a job, bro. You gotta do the work.

It's hard to put into words with a couple or with an individual to, to properly communicate that forgiveness is this ongoing journey, and we continue to like forgive over time at deeper and deeper levels as we move through. Specifically, we'll look at it in a minute, some of the stages. Yeah, forgiveness and the RT, the stations. Thank you. You could be— you could say, you know, you could take responsibility and address justice, love, and power and ask for forgiveness let's— let's— I'm just making this up, but like, let's say 3 weeks into therapy after a serious violation. But you might 2 years later be in a deeper level of forgiveness because you're still doing the work. In fact, I think, for example, since I've done like a 12-step program, I've gone through, um, regeneration at a church, and I walk a lot of people through that ministry. Is that by the time you get to step 9, where you make amends, right?

Yeah, that heavy step.

Uh-huh. If I say sorry at step 1, I, you know, I probably am sorry. But to say sorry, sorry at step 9, after I've gone through the inventory and I now understand how I've hurt somebody, that is a deeper level of forgiveness that you're moving in towards, you know.

Yes. Yeah, the 12-step program is absolutely amazing. I, I love the way it like kind of keeps on taking you back to this idea of like, um, the damage that's happened and, and, um, uh, recognizing those that you've hurt and then finally making that amends, um, in Step 9, um, you know, and continuing that journey.

And if you do it— it's not the right word, but if you do it right if you really do move through forgiveness, man, you can talk about that thing in the past with a lot of redemptive power and beauty to it. And it's not this— it's not this thing that causes pain.

Exactly. I mean, or shame, I would say.

I mean, I think there might be some pain still because, you know, things hurt, but it's not— it's not this it's not this elephant in the room that we're all afraid to, like, talk about.

I'm gonna be found out, you know?

Yeah.

Like, no, we— like, this is the truth. I failed miserably. I did this miserable, horrible thing, you know?

Yeah.

Um, and I need to own that I've done that. Um, and, uh, you know, even if that's, you know, part of my whole journey where I can make that a thing that I did, but also own who I am now, you know, in the process.

How did you and Jen come up with this diagram? Because I really like it. I do think it's a really powerful, helpful diagnostic tool. Like, what's the genesis of that?

So, so I was— I, I had read Terry's original book. Um, it just come out. So this is like right when the, um, the Restoration Therapy book.

Okay, yeah.

So in the book, he goes into detail on justice, power, and love.

And this Essential Humility of Marriage up here in the back, I mean, he talks about Tillich early on in his writing as well. So that's an important piece, it seems like, that's in his work.

Yeah, yeah. So the Essential Humility, so like you see it in there, and I was sitting there, you know, I don't know, I think it was just something like I saw the three of them and I'm like how does this work together? Like, what is it about justice, power, and love? Like, how does this work together? Um, and I was trying to figure out a way to, to communicate it in a way of, you know, instead of them just being abstract pieces, um, I want to find a way to kind of, you know, I'm at— I used to be a pastor, bro. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta put it all together, bro. Yeah.

And you're married to a pastor.

Yeah, and I married a pastor, so it's just danger all glory. Yeah, so I was trying to put it together, and, um, that's, that's the way it ended up. You know, I think Tillich would have probably, um, had it, you know, his, his, like, it's like an outflow of, like, he has— his would be more of a, um, his, like, his original stuff would have been more of a, uh, like if then, if then. Um, and I, I can see what he was doing there, but I think, I honestly think it, it's one of those things of, okay, yeah, fair enough. But I think when we look at where we are on the scales of, um, you know, how I'm doing with justice with the violation, how I'm doing with love with regards to the violation, how I'm doing power with regards to the violation, like, I think it's just easier for most people to look at the original. Like, Terry has a triangle that he, that he uses, um, with it, um, and he kind of talks about like the stability in and around like how you need all three. And it's like a, um, like you need all three in order to have balance, um, in a system to make it stand up. Um, but I, I was thinking more in the realm of this diagnostic tool.

Yeah, yeah. And so it's, uh, it's kind of— it's not RT adjacent, but you took, you took research from Terry's writings around tilic and things and applied a diagram that you felt was really helpful.

Yeah, and it works in the therapy room.

So, man, you know what just came to my mind?

What's up, man?

How— if he, if he was still alive today, Dr. Ray Anderson on this episode talking about forgiveness. He could have talked— he could have talked about Tillich and Barth and brought all this in, and oh, it would have been really powerful. I'm just sorry, people, Lance and I are having a moment about our mentor Dr. Ray Anderson. That'd have been awesome.

I mean, okay, so let's go theological, like, with this. Number one, like, I'll lean in on like this, this moment of, uh, like how Ray Anderson like really changed my mind on forgiveness. Um, and, and he has this, uh, I think it's in— I had the book right here. Uh, wow, I can't see today. Um, oh, here it is. Is it Dancing with Wolves? Was she— or Judas and Jesus?

Yeah, Judas and Jesus. Yeah, yeah.

So this book, yeah, Amazing Grace for the Wounded Soul, um, absolutely just crazy. It's such an easy read too, um, but, um, he had this like whole story that he had written out about what would happen if Jesus Jesus meets with Judas before he kills himself or after he kills himself.

Yeah.

And the way that Jesus approaches Judas was so kind. And I just— seeing Jesus' kindness in the midst of like a horrible thing that has been done to you was like, oh, That's so fascinating to see an empowered response, because I feel like kindness is a very empowered response when you have somebody that's coming into a fold to say, you know, to help them to be made right. So anyways, yeah, I'm sure Ray Anderson would have a lot of great things to say about this.

Yeah, there's some just— there's Obviously just some rich, rich theological stuff to plumb here.

Yeah, the last part around theology that I really like is like John 3:16 is kind of like the classic forgiveness passage that, you know, you always see at the football games or whatever, or you used to. I don't even know if people do that anymore. But, you know, John 3:16 Do you know what John 3:16 says?

Yeah.

For God so loved— there's love—

their belief in him that he gave his— oh, sorry, go ahead, man, you got me all bungled up here on the pod. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he gave— for God's love, everlasting life.

Okay, so he gave his only begotten son. There had to be justice, right? Justice had to be played out. That's— justice is found on the cross. You know, when Jesus says it is finished on the cross, justice is played out there, right? That is the culmination of justice. And then finally, that we would not have— that we would not perish but have eternal life. There is a promise or an empowerment that happens there. You know, for he didn't come to condemn the world but to redeem it.

Redemption. Redeem.

Yeah. I mean, come on. That's the journey. That's the journey of forgiveness that we're called to. And that's exactly this beautiful thing that Terry's put together, um, in his work on forgiveness. Um, and I, I do want to recommend, you know, Families and Forgiveness by, um, Nicole Zasowski and, and Terry. It's just this absolutely amazing work. It's such a— they do such a great job in the book. And we'll tell you a personal story and stuff earlier.

We're working on getting Terry and Nicole and Eric and some people on the podcast to talk about this at DEPS. Lance, our members, I think I don't know if when you were a kid you ever did Bible memorization. I think, I think I started when I was like 5, and I remember that John 3:16 was the first verse, but it looks so big when you're a little kid, right? It's a long passage, you know?

Yeah, I didn't really grow up like that. Yeah, but we, we would go Christmas, Easter, and other holidays.

Well, everybody wanted John 11:35, Jesus wept. That was easy to remember.

Yeah, that one's great, you know.

All right, so we got this diagnostic tool, this Just the Love and Power, and we move into— which is what I did when I talked to the couples, I kind of had to look at this chart that you made and diagnose, diagnosticate themselves essentially, right? And then to look at the stations in the RT model, you want to talk about what the stations are?

Yeah, so, and this is, this is the, the Terry's— this is even before Restoration Therapy. I feel like this is what created Restoration Therapy, was the forgiveness work, um, because this is Terry's, like, his initial, like, his initial work was, um, like caregivers and, like, but, um, forgiveness comes up really quickly. Um, so when he was creating the stations, he recognized that there's, um, these two different ways that we can go. One is this realm of salvage, right? And salvage is all about dealing with the damage that has been done. And, and, you know, basically, you know, the ship's wrecked, let's do our best, let's grab all the pieces that we can and just deal with what we got, right? Um, and then the other part is restoration. Restoration is all about this idea of like, I can— I'm gonna try and make it right with the other party. So with salvage, the other party is not necessary, um, and with restoration it is necessary, but forgiveness can be found in either realm, which to me is just absolutely beautiful. Um, and in Salvage, there's, there's two different realms, and hopefully we have the chart up for people to look at the chart up. Um, so with Salvage, we have, uh, one is to— and this is what rocked my world, um, was, uh, with Salvage, the first one to look at is having insight, right? And insight asks the question, because I've been hurt, um, how do I in turn hurt others, right? Um, so we ask that question, it's basically we're looking at our pain cycles, you know, like pain inflicted, pain given, right? So, so like, um, doing the work of insight is actually happening when you're doing your pain cycle with people. Um, yeah, and I always say in this stage there's a lot of—

like, when you're working with a couple, there's a lot of digging up of stuff often, right? You have to like excavate the site a little bit to like look at the pieces and understand like, what do we have here? What happened?

Yeah, making sense.

And it's painful. A lot of people don't want to do that. Let's just move on. So the salvage work, I always say, is very— it's very painful to do. Yeah, everybody wants to move to restoration.

Yes, make it right. Um, but I, I think the one thing I love about it is like I had to stop making excuses for myself when I started doing insight-oriented work. I was not allowed to make excuses for myself anymore. Yeah, like there is no reason that I should continue this cycle of, um, violence that has been handed to me. Like, there's that— I need to stop making excuse for that. I need to find empowerment over the pain that was handed to me. That changed everything because I used to just live this like, like, oh, I can just be like however I want to be because like this happened to me, man, you know. That was my response. But that was not helpful to the work I needed to do, um, nor was it helpful, um, to myself, right? If I live an embittered life, I, I miss out on so much. So what insight— the goal of insight work at the end of the day— so ask the question, but the goal of insight is that we would stop the cycle, like quit it, you know? Like, we don't need to have that happening anymore. Um, on the— yeah, do you have any other thoughts?

No, I just— so, you know, forgiveness, there's salvage and restore, the two big moving pieces, stations, kind of, if you will. Underneath salvage, the first piece is this insight into self, which you say is the aim to understand how you've been harmed and also now how are you harming others. Yeah, okay. And then the other piece is understanding.

Now this one— now, yeah, um, and here's the deal with, um, you know, when we're doing this work, like, you, you can, you can go on one of the stations, you do two of the stations, you do three of the stations, you do four of the stations. You— it's, it's a total, like, choose your own adventure route. Um, so as we talk, it's not like you have to do every single one.

And it's not always a sequential— yeah, yeah, like you're not moving one, now I'm good, now I go to two, now I'm good, now I go to three, now I go to four. Like you could be moving all around quite a bit.

Yeah, yeah. Um, so understanding is all about this idea of, um, trying to like understand the others is this journey of, you know, my violator who hurt me— this is like high, high love um, piece. Um, what is their story, you know? And if I were in their shoes, I don't know if I would have done any better. That's like, you know, you've done good understanding work when you have gotten to that level. But leaning into, um, your violator's story, um, to the place where, um, the pain inflicted has way less of a personal touch and more of a place of like, okay, I get it, that sucked, that was horrible, that should have never happened, right? Um, but I, I at least have this bit of me where I feel settled in my heart. I don't have to be afraid, um, of the monster because they're not a monster, it's just a broken human being, you know. I, I think that's the gift of that now, in quote. It's like, this is— we're all broken people on the journey, right? And, and doing this heavy work. None of us is perfect, right? There's only one perfect person who's ever roamed this Earth.

I think the word that you used on the handout is the aim is to, um, humanize. Yeah, humanize the violator, right? It's, um, it's not this, um, in that work, uh, Exclusion Embrace by Miroslav Volf. It's not like exclusion of the other person where we objectify them and they have no name or face and we can treat them a certain way. But this is to bring in the violator and to give them a name, to give them a face, to, to, to humanize them, to, to, if possible, put ourselves in their shoes and try to see things from their perspective. And I always say to a couple this because I think people are afraid to go there sometimes. Yeah, because I think what they're— what we're saying is we're minimizing maybe the damage done to them, or we're excusing another person's bad behavior. No, it's not about that. It's about trying to humanize the person and in many ways free yourself from holding on to this power.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have— we always have justice, right? Just— we still need justice, right? We still have power. But yeah, that's so— yeah, that's very well put, right? I like that.

Well, here's how— here's where you tie in the diagnostic tool, which to me is really helpful. Under the salvage piece, you say the insight to self, right? So if I understand how I've been harmed and how I harm others, that you said helps with power.

Yep.

And understanding the other, like trying to humanize the violator, that helps with love.

Yes, absolutely.

So you are addressing both future, it sounds like, and, um, present. Yeah, in the work of salvage.

Yes. Yeah, unfortunately, you know, justice, you know, when it comes to your violator making amends, since you're not going to be interacting with them, you know, justice really is, um, this more abstract thing that you can work on. Like, maybe from a theological bent, I would think for me, like, when I went to the cross for— and I saw that Jesus died for my violator, um, it was a weird walk to the cross, you know? Like, it's nice to go to the cross for your own forgiveness, but to recognize the person who's done a grave injustice to you is also, um, being died for, it's like, okay, the legitimacy of that. But yeah, it's more abstract, so you're not really experiencing the justice of like, you know, that person is making amends. But you can find—

you might be in the room with your violator as well. Yeah. And maybe that's a— maybe we use different language, but like you're working with a couple who's experienced violations of trust around— yeah, betrayal, betrayal, different types of, um, an affair, infidelity, or lying about something. Yeah, addictive behavior where they're being sneaky about stuff. Um, at some point, right, you were— you were— if you're doing couples counseling, at least you're sitting in the room with that violator. And if you have any hope of restoring a relationship, that salvage work of humanizing the other is really critical. Oh.

I mean, it changes the game. I mean, it's like all of a sudden I, I don't have— like, the fear doesn't take a hold as much of the person. Like, they can have compassion, um, you know, on, on the person that hurt them. Yeah. So, yeah.

Okay, so there's that salvage piece. Walk me through the restoration piece. So if, again, we'll have a chart, but if you, if you figure kind of like a cascading diagram here. At the top is forgiveness. You got salvage on one side. Under salvage is insight, and then understand the other. And now we got restoration. And what does that look like?

So when we reach the stage of restoration, now we're asking for the other party to enter the room, um, because, you know, the goal of forgiveness— just, I think it's— this is, this is the— this is our measure. When love and trustworthiness has been restored, we have done forgiveness. We have finished the work of forgiveness. As long as there is a place that is missing, then we need to go back and do the work. Um, and, um, so what that does is it allows for us to interact when love and trustworthiness—

yeah, so when what, when what the core of RT is, love and trust, Yeah, when we see that restored, we know we've done the work of forgiveness.

Yes.

Yeah, dang. Okay, I like how you said that.

Yeah, well, I stole it from the man.

Terry, like how you put all that in play there.

Yeah, isn't it amazing? He, he was, he was always made to make the—

like, restoration therapy is this Well, what's helping me is like, I know like we're talking about this stuff, but the way when I hear you say it, I'm like, oh, okay, forgiveness is complete. We've actually— here is when we know forgiveness has taken place: when we see love and trust restored.

Yeah.

And I don't always— and sometimes I'm not always thinking about like the, the language is helpful to identify that and go, okay, that, that is a signal to me And that is empowering to a couple too, to be able to say in the room, like, I have, I have observed you in the room and heard your stories, and here are examples of where love and trust has been restored, and it feels like forgiveness has really taken place between you two.

It's beautiful. I mean, like, to see couples or individuals like get to this other side, um, where they, they've done the hard work. It's like, to me, it's like it's when you witness a miracle.

Yeah.

I mean, I— people tell me, they're like, I can never— I, I like— they're like, I can never imagine how somebody would ever be with someone that's, um, you know, in an addiction. Or I could never imagine if like someone had an affair, how do you recover from that? Like, that's like conversation, yeah, like that people in the street would have with me. And I'll tell them, like, you know, most people do— like, half, half of couples where there's been an affair, like, that's recovered. Um, and 3 years later, they're saying, like, you know, um, you know, the affair wasn't a good thing, but what it did is that we're in a much better place in our marriage now because of what happened.

It's interesting you say that. I some people I've been working with, and though they would never wish ever what took place in their life, they feel like it's almost what saved their relationship because it required— what the, the, the, the, the violations required them to do the work at such a deep level that they don't think they ever would have done on their own.

Absolutely.

And when you you see a couple go through that, man, it sure does give you a lot of hope.

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing that keeps me in the therapy room. I'm always like, yeah, you know, the hope of the future to come. You know, I recognize the, the past, it ain't too pretty, um, but you know, that sometimes in the therapy room when I'm really struggling, I have to lean back on this idea of like, I'm here for your future, um, and help you to deal with your past, but You know, that's why I'm here for them.

So, okay, so the restore restoration piece is what?

So the first stage is called opportunities for compensation. Okay. Opportunities for compensation is all about giving olive branches and slowly trying to reset the relationship. This is high-level power dynamic that's going to happen um, in the, in the relationship. Um, in this stage, it's not always necessary to talk about what happened in the past, but what is necessary is to change the dynamic of how we interact with one another, right? Um, that I will no longer be subject to this dynamic. So we set it up in, in very winnable moments, right? Um, this is really important when you're doing forgiveness work. It's like, if you're— once you get a couple together and they're working, or they're Like, you really want both parties to want this to be a win. Um, you know, it— like, if, if, if, you know, they're not wanting it to be a win, they just want the other person to suffer and to be down and out, like, we can work that side. But if we want to have restoration, like, I think it is really important that when you're doing opportunities of compensation that you're, you're leaning in on, uh, how we can be in better relationship with one another. Um, so we would recommend, you know, hey, why don't you go do a quick coffee moment at a cafe in a public space? So safety is really important. Um, and, um, I want you to meet for 5 minutes, and, um, here's the dynamics. This has a lot of boundaries at play with, with the with the conversation. And the goal is that we're slowly building it up. Terry tells this story, I'm sure I've talked about it on here before, where like if someone borrowed $10,000 from you, right? And they never paid it back, right? You're probably not gonna— and they come back to you and ask for another $10,000. You're probably not gonna be like, oh yeah, Here's $10,000, you know. Um, but Terry is like, but if they asked you for a single dollar or maybe a penny, would you be willing to give them a dollar or a penny, you know, um, uh, and with the hope that they would pay it back? And you say, yeah, I'd loan someone a dollar and see if they could pay it back. Okay, well, let's start there. What does a dollar look like in this dynamic?

Um, yeah, opportunities or compensation. It's like this idea of like allowing the violator opportunities to, to do things but with some maintained boundaries perhaps to— yes, to rebuild that trustworthiness, to show that they can show up. I mean, one of the examples I was thinking of, you tell me if this is accurate, like Let's say a couple has gone through a significant conflict in their marriage, a violation of trust, and one of the couples moves out of the house for a month, right?

Yeah.

And they're doing the work of insight and understanding, and they might get to a place where opportunity for compensation is the other person moves back into the house, but instead of moving back into the bedroom, they move upstairs. So I'm gonna allow you to move in because of the work we've been doing, but there are some boundaries. I'm not ready, right? Or, yeah, or we might engage in holding hands and hugging, but we're, we're not going to have any sexual intimacy in the relationship right now. That does not feel safe. Yeah, so it's, it's an engagement but with boundaries around it.

Absolutely. It's the slow process of being rebuilt and rekindled. So that love and trust can find itself again. Just prove that the goal is like for the victimizer to show that they are no longer a victimizer. They have learned their lesson. They have— they are— they're not going to put you ever again in that stage again. They'll never violate you in that way. And they're doing the work. So the victim is now super empowered. Um, uh, and, and the way that they connect. And yeah, exactly, you know, Rhett.

I know, man, this is powerful stuff. Okay, so you said too that helps with justice and power, right? Yeah. And then we move on to— I call it the final stage, but as we said, we can kind of go back and forth at times. But the other stage under Restore is Overt forgiveness, in your face.

We're gonna hit all three pieces, right? This is usually connected with a therapeutic appointment, and in the therapy appointment, I'm gonna go through justice, right? I'm gonna name the ways that, like, as the victimizer, I'm gonna name the damage and the, and the things that I've done wrong to you.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And I'm also going to say, here's the things I'm going to do to make it right. Like, here's, you know, um, Terry tells a story, um, of— I'll change some of this, some of the facts— but like, um, like somebody had like a debt that they owed to their child, um, um, and, uh, so he, he, the, the intervention he gave was Okay, you still owe this debt, so I want you to pay the debt, um, and make that debt right. Um, so like that, that would be an overt forgiveness thing, like here's the money, here's what I owe you. Um, like, so like there's some tangible actual items to make it right. Um, you know, um, you know, if you've done horrible atrocities, like I'm gonna turn myself in to the law. You know, for what I've done. Um, sometimes that, that is the, the justice piece. Um, but this is, this is where you're just saying, here's, here's what I'm gonna do, here's my making amends. Next, it's like, hey, and this is why I did it. It's not what I did, that doesn't make it right, but I think it's important for you to understand why I was so messed up in the moment. I was lost in my own brain. I had this damage of part of me that like I struggle with, and like here, this is what happened, right? It's not your fault. Like, I literally had something wrong with me, um, that, that brought me to this point. Um, so you're naming why you did what you did in a way that doesn't shame the other person but, but helps you to own what was going on in your heart to let you know. So it was like, forgive them for they know not what they do. Here's what I did. I didn't know what I was doing. I was so messed up. Um, and then finally at the very end, um, to say, and I commit to this here moving forward, here is my commitment. I will, um, here are my new vows. You know, sometimes I'll have like, you know, if it's a marriage, you know, they'll get you know, they'll, they'll rewrite their wedding vows and they'll get remarried, um, in session, you know, like where, you know, or they'll even do a whole, um, you know, uh, uh, remarriage, um, ceremony, um, to say this is the— this is the marriage that we're going to have now, um, leaving the past, um, to be— to say it's been dealt with and handled and moving towards this new hope that we have with one another.

So it hits on that— the overt forgiveness piece addresses the justice, love, and power. Yeah, it's a really detailed, in many ways, apology of like, kind of like when you make amends in AA. Here's— I want you— I want to acknowledge how I've hurt you, and here are the ways that I've hurt you.

Yeah.

And, um, and here's how I understand myself better and how I got to that place and the decisions I made, and I take full responsibility for that. And I want you to know that moving forward, here are the things that I'm gonna do to address those things and to work on myself and to improve our relationship. And I don't, you know, I sometimes I say, you know, you may not be in the place right now to forgive me, but I want you to know that's okay. But I want you to know that I am seeking forgiveness and that, yeah, I'm sorry for what I've done.

Yeah.

And, and to lay that out really clear with the person is that over forgiveness piece.

Yeah, dude, it's tough work. This is, this is the tough work that we get to do. Um, but yeah, it is absolutely beautiful.

How many more minutes you got left, Lance?

Uh, I think I, I think I have time to go. I can stretch us today.

Give me— walk me through, or share with me an example of an intervention you like around forgiveness, a practice, something with people, whether it's individual or a couple, that you think is really powerful, that they've been doing this work, you've been walking through the model, and you're like here's an intervention, or here's something that kind of embodies all of it.

Um, okay, so I'll tell you some of the Justice ones because I think they are like— and these are ones that I, I have adopted from Terry. Um, but, um, I like to name— so let's say like the person's working on Justice, right? And I'll have them— so name the damage that's been done, right? Um, and so I'll have them name the damage that's been done. And, uh, like, like, if we're looking— if we're doing damage control, how is the ship hurt, right? You know, the hole, the, um, uh, the propeller, there's no movement here, I can't— I have no energy, you know, um, what— whatever. So I'll have them name that thing of how it's done. And then so I I, I would say to the person, then I was like, okay, so, um, when you look at this damage, what are some things that could make it right? You know, um, a lot of my clients, they'll say, well, I have been so ashamed by what you've done, and you have not had zero accountability to people, so I want you to go forward and tell everybody the truth about what happened. So that would be this moment where the client would go forward and share the truth. Um, and, um, Terry tells this story— I can't remember if it is one— he was with one of the greats, um, and, and they tell this story of like, you know, um, in, um, Eastern culture, um, a lot of times when you shame the family, what they do is they, they will shave their heads, um, and, um, to say, I have done shame to my family. Right. And I love this image of like shaving one's head to say, you know, I've, you know, I've done wrong, right? So they go through and, you know, shave their heads and then they have to give account for that. But the beauty of a shaved head is that the hair grows back. Um, and, and so you have your moment of like saying to everybody why you shaved your head, um, and what that was about. But you're also having this other piece that's being played out where your hair is growing back, um, and that is the journey of forgiveness. So I think that that's like one of my, um, favorite things. I've, I've, I think I've had 2 clients over the past 15 years shave their heads.

Wow.

So like, it's not a, it's not like, like, I'll name it, but they're like, I'm not shaving my head. Um, yeah, but, uh, that—

I— it's very biblical. Yeah.

So this— yeah, sackcloth.

Yeah, sitting in sackcloth, shaving head. I, um, one time I remember, um, and this is— my memory is so bad here. But it's— well, I'll change details, but a couple had, um, done the work of forgiveness, um, done some intensive work and decided to have a funeral for their marriage. And so they took a photo and they buried an old photo and kind of set a ceremony over it. Yeah, they had put to death their old marriage. And, and it wasn't that everything was bad in the marriage, right? But it's like didn't no longer represented who they were and where they wanted to be. And I thought about that imagery a lot, and I've had a couple, some, I've had a couple take road trips and go out in the desert and like do kind of very similar things. And there's something about the tactile, the physicality of it. Um, my wife and I, at one point in our marriage, we, we wrote down some things about our marriage, like the hurts, the violations, all this stuff that was painful to us. And we also went out in a field and dug a hole and we buried it. This empty field kind of far from our house. I think a Trader Joe's is built over it now. And then we wrote down—

Now it's the place that gives joy to people.

Yeah, a new life out of there. Then we wrote on another paper things that we were moving towards that we wanted to grow, and we buried that in our backyard under a tree that was coming to life and blooming. And so it was like, for us, it was a tactile symbol of putting something to death and having new life that was there. And, and, you know, I always tell people it's not— there's not ma— there's not magic. We're not going for magic, you know. But there are really powerful moments in these embodied practices that, yeah, that bring about forgiveness, that make it more concrete.

So yeah, but yeah, like, I think you named some of them, like, is this idea of, um, slowly re-engaging, like having them stay in the doghouse, you know, literally, like, in the— and like, they have to, you know, stay outside um, and, um, as this like idea of like, I have violated the family and I, I am not ready to come in. And then to have— but the moment of like creating a rite of passage around the return, you know, of like, now you are allowed back in. Yeah, because you have done the hard work. Like, to let the work do the work, right? You know, like, this stands for something, it means something. Right, to do a postnuptial agreement, um, uh, to, to create security for, for your, um, for your client, um, to say, hey, I violated you in a way and made you feel insecure around our financial arrangements. Here's the deal, I'm going to give you this postnuptial, um, to make sure that you know that you're always safe, you know. And, you know, um, that, that's, that's a really great thing to, to give for power. Um, for people. Uh, so, um, yeah, and I've had a lot of— I've had a lot of funeral ceremonies too. Yeah, um, for parents. Um, uh, you know, I've had so many. There, there are many parents that are alive that are now— that are dead in my client's idea— minds— that, you know, you're— I'm giving up on the mom I really— I always wanted you to be. You're never going to be that mom.

Yeah.

So we've done the funeral service to that mom, and now I'll accept— now I'm going to move towards the mom that you are. And maybe as that mom, your name is Kathleen, and I'm just going to call you Kathleen from now on because I'm not going to give you the moniker of mom, but I, I will accept you as Kathleen. By the way, I'm making names up. Yeah, I don't know why Kathleen came to my mind. Yeah.

And there's such rich biblical imagery we can use in these moments with clients, just of new life, of restoration. I mean, it's, it's rich. You can really just go so many different places, you know?

Yeah. I mean, here we are. We're like, this is now like the moment of, you know, where, you know, we had the story that Judas could have had, but we actually have the story that Peter did have, you know. Yeah, you know, he says, feed my sheep, feed my sheep, feed my sheep. Like, there is this journey. Um, do you love me? You know, there, there's— you're, you're back in the fold. Feed the sheep, take care of the people. You know, like, it's such a beautiful— like, after denying me 3 times, I will reinstate you. After you say, um, you know, that you love me back 3 times. Like, so beautiful. Um, yeah, I love it. Being restored, you know, you talk about the story— you should tell this story of, um, the, um, the guy, um, the demonic does in chains, like I should tell a story?

Yeah, well, you're talking about in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the— yeah. Oh, with Ray Anderson's kind of take on it? Yeah, yeah. Well, and I actually— well, I'll close with this. I actually quote unquote preached on it last Monday in the regeneration group. Oh, what? Um, actually, no, I preach on the guy who's paralyzed being led down into the the roof with his friends, but the whole like story of the demonic is like the guy who's basically a wild man in chains out by the caves who's possessed, and the people are afraid of him. He's in the outskirts of towns, and Jesus comes and drives out the demons. This is a story. He drives them into the pigs that go off the side of the cliff, and he heals this guy, And in the passage there, it says that the people see him clothed and sitting in his right mind. And our professor Anderson used to say, who do you think clothed him? Like, you think his disciples were carrying extra clothes around or just had clothes? He's like, no, it was the community. And I think his point was that restoration is a communal process, or it is a a relational process that when we are healed, right, we are also clothed, like physically, and we are sitting there in our right mind. And yeah, it just speaks to the full healing that forgiveness brings to our lives— physical, emotional, mental, spiritual. And I, I think Jesus does obviously that work, and then there's a part that we collaborate and participate in is where we help clothe this person and we forgive them, and, um, and the relationship is, is made new. I don't know if you want— if that's what you were referring to, but Anderson would talk about that a lot.

Yeah, I just think of the ultimate work of forgiveness is that we— like, the, the goal of forgiveness is being restored, restoring the love and trust. And because this demoniac, demoniac, whatever, um, is brought back, the madman, he's brought back and he contributes to society again. And I think that's so beautiful. Like, this is, this is the work that we do. It's like we restore the, the lost, the sheep, the, like, whatever it may be, um, you know. And even in our own lives, there's parts that are broken right? Yeah, the parts that were broken in me, and I'm still being restored too in my own personal life. But like, you know, there, there are things that have been broken that I— that are coming back, um, because of the hard work of forgiveness. And I'm so thankful to Terry and, um, you know, Paul Tillich and, you know, all— and Jesus, obviously, um, because they give me a chance to step into the full person I'm called to be.

Good stuff, man. Bro, I think we did it. Looking forward to another episode in the future where we even dive deeper with the master himself.

Dun dun dun. Eric.

All right, Lance.

Hey, man. Hopefully today's— I'm sure it brought stuff up in everybody today. You know, I just want to encourage you, um, you know, this word's come up a lot to me, it's one step in front of another. Yeah. So if you're in the journey of forgiveness with, with, um, someone, or you're working a client, that's the— it's one step in front of the other. You know, it's— that's the beauty of this work that Terry put together. It's, it's one step. You can jump into any station that's out there. So if you're really like feeling overwhelmed with the at all. It's like, no, it's just one step at a time. We'll do it.

Good words, man. Thanks for the conversation today. We'll chat soon. Thanks for listening, everyone. Take care.

Yeah, man.

Peace.

Cheers.