Season 2 | Episode 73 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Joanne Russell

What's going on? We're here.

Yeah, we're a little rusty. We've been off for a couple weeks.

I know, man, you've been doing stuff.

I'm used to talking to you almost every day via text or phone call. Or podcasts, but I was on vacation, uh, moving my daughter out of her freshman year of college. And so you and I were, um, are, you know, not used to that long, long a time span from conversation. So it's good to see you.

You too, man. It's kind of funny when you say you're on vacation and you're like, I usually contact you all the time, makes me feel like our relationship is work for you.

No, no, no, I enjoy it. We got a lot of things going on in our lives right now that we're working on in process. And so, yeah, it's good. So, well, I, you know, a couple things. Let's make a couple quick announcements, and I'll let you introduce our guest.

We got some big announcements.

Yeah, so let's get the dates correct though.

Oh my gosh, let me get my calendar out so I don't mess it up.

Go ahead, you want to make the announcement?

It's live! It's alive! You can register, ladies and gentlemen. The early bird is out there. This is going to be an amazing RT Summit, um, and, um, the dates are March— oh man, 4th and 5th. Thank you, Rhett. So mark your calendars, March 4th and 5th. Register early. Um, there's only going to be 300 registrations. It's in California, so I am pretty sure we're gonna have a pretty sold-out experience.

And it's not just in California, it's— yeah, I mean, Camp Verdine's campus in Malibu, so heavenly.

Yeah, heavenly. So you sit up top and march with the sun as it hits the— and then sometimes you get that swell that's coming through. Oh brother, it's gonna be so much fun. I'm so excited.

Okay, March 4th and 5th. That is a— I just want to make it clear because we had, I think, a date of the 6th in there at one point, but it's March 4th and 5th. That is a Thursday. It's an all-day Thursday, all-day Friday. We will probably have a loosely affiliated activity that Wednesday evening, or there'll be some things to do because people will be flying in town. But so be prepared that basically all day Thursday and all day Friday is a conference, and then we will— we wanted to be done on Friday around 4 or 5 so that people have the rest of the weekend to spend, um, hanging out.

Yeah, you guys down to San Diego?

Yeah, Lance is still thinking about putting together a surf workshop maybe, so we'll see, you know, what happens.

I actually have had interest in it, which is started to scare me.

I know, let's, uh, let me run over a thing though. Okay, we'll put the link in the website, but it's pretty easy to remember. It's restorationtherapysummit.com. restorationtherapysummit.com. And like Lance said, if you register now, you get the early bird fee. So, um, again, I agree with Lance. I think we'll sell out, um, at some point sooner than later. So if you're interested in going reserve your spot.

Yeah, man, we're stoked on it. Um, the other things we have are some Level 2 trainings coming up, uh, and I'm gonna pull up the dates for those so I don't mess this one up. Yeah, do you got the Level 1s?

Level 2, uh, which is with Stephanie online, is June 4th and 5th. And then Level 1 June 26th through the 27th is with Michael Pachuco, and that's in Phoenix, Arizona.

Michael's been on the podcast a few times. He's great.

Yeah. And then again in August, uh, Terry Hargrave has one online August 14th and 15th. And then Lance, you got an online one August 28th and 29th, Level 2.

Yeah, yeah, sign up. The Level 2s get really popular, um, and I really want to stress Level 2 is where it where the game changes. It goes from this, like, interesting theory that you've learned to, like, something that you actually embody. So sign up for Level 2. All right. And Stephanie's amazing. I don't know if— we'll have to see how many spots she has left, but, um, uh, I, I like to do it as well. It's one of my joys.

So awesome.

You got anything else for us?

No, let's not waste any more of our time and, uh, our guest time and let you introduce her.

Yes. Oh man, so about— oh gosh, so when I decided to open up my own practice, um, I asked Terry, like, I have no clue what I'm doing. Like, tell me, Terry, like, when it comes to hiring people, when it comes to like running a practice, like, what are the major things I should be thinking about? And, um, Terry gave me this rundown on how to hire people. He said, look, when you're hiring people, you want these 3 major things. Okay. Number 1 is you want somebody that, um, likes to learn, right? You want them to be, um, very teachable and wanting to learn, like very eager to learn. Um, and I'm like, oh yeah, that's great. I like that. I like to learn so we can all learn together. Um, and then he said, okay, and then the next thing you want is you want someone that's fun because therapy is rough, right? Oh, it's so exhausting, um, some days. And, and when you're having a down day, to have someone fun that you can chat with and be like, how is your day? Oh, I was just thinking about this, something random to talk about, or even commiserate on, on a tough case. And then the final thing he said, um, is you want someone with drive. Um, you want someone that doesn't want to just, you know, show up, but you want someone that's going to really drive and really grind and get stuff done. So those were the 3 things Terry put in my heart, um, and that has been the litmus test for how I hire people. Um, and then comes in my office, um, Joanne Russell, our person today, comes to my office and she has all three of those in spades. She shows up to my office to interview, um, right? And part of the interview, she has this like— I don't know if you still have the notebook, um, but she has this like presentation notebook for how she talks about restoration therapy with all of her clients that she was seeing at the time. I'm like, wow, this is amazing. Like, this is so— I think she might like restoration therapy more than I do, which I don't think that's possible. Uh, she, she was like full-on RT everything everywhere every way. Uh, we, we— I'm so delighted to have Joanne on here today. She is a fellow lover of the model, um, fellow lover of people, um, and, um, uh, a deep, awesome, treasured faith Uh, her, her whole family is RT all around. Um, so we have, um, we, we're so stoked to have you on here today. Uh, Joanne has, uh, is married to this amazing man named Garrick, um, uh, who, um, has participated in multiple trainings, um, with Restoration Therapy. Such a great guy. Um, and then she has 3 kids, uh, who I've gotten to meet two of them, uh, um, and, uh, actually just hired one of them. Uh, so we have a whole contingent working for us. And I even got to meet her sisters who are listeners of the show.

True.

Big shout out to Karen and Kim today as you listen to your sister hang out with us. So big fan. Welcome to the podcast, Joanne.

Thank you. It's truly, it's an honor to be here. I'm a fan of the podcast and I do rival you for love of RT. I love this model.

That's good.

There's a lot. I always thought I was the biggest fanboy of the RT model, but I think there's a lot of fans around for sure.

Yeah. And it's catching.

Yeah.

Which is awesome. And I, you know, I got to first meet you, Joanne, back in Man, the fall of 2022, I think.

WindShape.

Yeah, up at WindShape. Yeah. And so you entered into my life and was a difficult season in my life and got to be part of that journey. So I'm thankful on this side to have you on. I am. So I'm kind of curious, what's it like to work in the same office with Lance?

Oh, I love working with Lance. Um, that— working with Lance has been a really interesting journey for me. Um, I came from working in the church for 10 years to working in the RT office, and, and I think like the way the church navigates working with men was a very different, um, a different experience. And so I've learned, honestly, working with Lance has taught me that men are safe and that it's okay just to be yourself. And I, I really enjoy working with Lance. It's been, it's been a corrective emotional experience.

Nice. Wow, that's awesome. I, maybe I should come out to San Diego too, right?

We got, we got, you got a job for me? Oh dude, I got you set up, bro. Oh man.

So, you know, Lance probably knows this because you guys spend a lot of time together, obviously, in the office and there. I, but I don't, I don't know if I'm fully aware of this story. I'm, so I'm picturing you coming in with a notebook of RT and stuff in this interview. How did you come to Restoration Therapy? Like, what was your journey to get there?

Yeah, so I was a grad student at Bethel Seminary in San Diego location in 2018-19. That's like when I started my program, and, um, part of the program was you needed to attend therapy, or was highly suggested. It wasn't required but highly suggested. And so, um, I was a little I, I— it's so interesting how I got into even the field of therapy. I was working in the church. I wanted to be able to sit with people. I wanted to pastor and shepherd people. I felt a calling and a gift towards that. But as a female in the church, that really wasn't supported, and it was— there wasn't an avenue for that. But I kept seeing the marriage and family therapists at our church, and they had the ability to do what I thought was pastoring and shepherding people. So I went to grad school and— get a little skeptical of therapy, never done my own work before going to grad school, never been to a therapist before. And they tell us to go to therapy, and I end up in the office of Dr. Arliss MacDonald. And she was a psychodynamic therapist and amazing woman. And I sat with her for a year And I loved going to see her every single week. And honestly, I think the only thing I accomplished in that year, looking back on that very favorite year of mine, was I developed my secure attachment with her. And I began to unpack my story. I am— I began to talk about my story with her. And I think, like, prior to that, I'd always just talked about truth and peace and moving forward, but we never gave words to the pain or what I had been through. So we talked about that that first year, and then we were on Christmas break and she took a 3-week vacation. The nerve. And every week of that 3-week Christmas vacation, I was like, cannot wait to get back to Arliss. I cannot wait to get back. Every day I just cannot wait to get back to Arliss. And I get a phone call the day before I'm supposed to go back and see Arliss, and I learned she died. And I was devastated, devastated when I learned that. And, um, that was a process in and of itself. Well, then, as you know, the— our therapists have a trust or a will of what to do with the clients.

So another woman came alongside and said, if you don't have one, make sure you get one now. If you're listening to this, you're like, I haven't thought about what happens if I die. Make sure you have some contingency plan, okay?

Have a contingency plan. So Dr. Becky Apana comes aside Dr. Arliss McDonald, and I happen to know her, and she calls me up and she says, hey, I have a feeling you would be a good fit. You would enjoy sitting with Robin Reinke, and I want— I've gotten you an appointment with her. Now, getting in to see Robin at that time was impossible. Impossible. If it didn't come through this way, no one would have gotten in to see Robin. So literally, the Lord scoops me up and places me in the office of Robin Reinke. And I began sitting with Robin Reinke after a year of doing some attachment work. And on Robin's wall, she had the Restoration Therapy map: love, trust, violation, shame, blame, control, escape. And over the course of, like, building rapport, we quickly get into that map. And seeing that map on the wall and having her refer to it She didn't refer to it through a scriptural lens. She just referred to it as part of this scientific theory modality for healing. But it was like a matrix experience for me. It was like all the pieces of truth and understanding in my life were organized. The pain, the human behavior, what humans do, and then connection. It all came together for me really quick, like it was almost instantaneously, instantaneous for me. And I saw scripture in it right away. I could see that is exactly what Adam and Eve did. They did shame, blame, control, and escape. It was— there was nothing to it. So learning how to take off the old self and put on the new self, it was like the Holy Grail. I was like, I have been chasing after this for my entire life. And it was a, it was a very quick healing experience for me once that happened. And so then I became like Mary Magdalene and I'm like, I, I have the Holy Grail. And I go back to my grad school program and in probably the most clumsy way, I start telling everybody about Restoration Therapy. And one of the things they had said in our grad school program was, your modality is going to choose you. When you know it, when you see it, you will know it. Well, this one absolutely chose me, but I think I took on a lens of, oh no, this one's for everybody. Everyone needs this modality. Like, this is the way. This is the way, people. This is it. This is the way. This is the truth. This is the life. That is what restoration therapy meant to me. And so I began to share and talk ad nauseam, every single paper I did, every— everything that I could learn about it, I did. I got the books, I started reading, and then I, I got myself while I was in grad school up to Oregon to take Restoration Level 1 training with Terry. And, um, yeah, so that's where that started. And then the second thing I did while I was in grad school is I convinced my husband to go with me to the Hideaway. And I was in group therapy class, and I had to write a paper on group therapy. And I said, "Garrett, I want to have a group therapy experience so that I can write my paper on this. Go with me." So my husband—

I told you he's an amazing guy.

He is an amazing guy. So we went to the Hideaway in Ramona, and Jeff and Robin were running that, and, um, we did that experience together. And Garrick was— he shows up at that experience and he is like, well, I'm just here to support my wife, I have nothing to work on.

That's how every intensive starts off with us and saying that, good luck everybody, I'm sure you're struggling.

This feels great. I don't even know why I'm here.

Yeah, my wife just asked me to come.

Probably good for me.

Wait, Joanne, so when you first meet Robin, so is she at the center there in the RIT Center there in San Diego at Lance? Like, this is like 2019, so Lance, you're like 3 years into the center or something?

Yes.

Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good—

okay, wow. Okay, that's amazing.

Yeah, so she's in— I saw Robin for a year and learned Restoration Therapy, learned how to use the 4 steps, and we got to a place where she was like, hey, let's— what do you think about holding this loosely? Let's take a break. What would you think about possibly coming maybe to work with the Restoration Therapy Center in a couple of years? You finish your program. I had I had 2 more years to go. I was on a slow track. It took me 3 years to do school. And, um, and so I liked that idea. I liked the office. I really liked Robin. And so 2 years, I said goodbye to her and, um, continued on my journey. And yeah, ended up in practicum and at a place called Palomar teaching RT to everyone I could, and literally drew stick figures and Just, yeah, explaining every piece of RT to people that I possibly could.

I told you she had a whole notebook. It was impressive.

You like, is it Terry or who says it? Like you just, you kind of like catch it, right? Like you catch the RT.

You catch it.

Yeah.

Wow. That's, that's wild. I love that. And I love that, um, your husband went with you to the intensive. Yeah, so great.

He's a good sport.

It's so awesome.

He's on his own journey now, which is awesome. Yeah, using this, the tools.

Yeah, I think a lot of our spouses end up experiencing RT at different levels, whether it's through Relate Strong or like in an intensive or seeing a therapist who does RT. And it's so great when you're in a relationship where you can, you have common language around the model and the steps and everything. Um, you know, it makes it obviously easier to navigate conflict and things. Oh yeah, easier sometimes. It's still difficult at times. I, you know, before we hopped on, one of the things you were saying is that, and I, I guess, and Lance may want to go a different direction, but you said there were things that like you love about RT, like different components, I think. Is what you— I heard you say. And if Lance is cool with that, I would love to hear what those are. Like, what are the components that, like, really jump out to you that you're like, this is what I love?

I'm cool with that.

Okay. Okay.

There's so much about RT that I love. So I love the— there's a I have a quote that I love to share. This quote is by, um, Ann Voskamp. She wrote this in The Waymaker. Um, she says, if our first sin was to turn from God, detach the fruit from the tree and savor it, then our return to wholeness is to turn, attach to God, and savor him. Oh, I love that quote. I love that, and I, I relate to that through the Restoration Therapy model that when— so we have the pain cycle and we have the peace cycle. We have this idea of I'm detached to God, I'm detached from God, I'm going to attach to God. We have this idea of, um, our testimony and confession, and then the truth and repentance. And I just love how the model holds it all, organizes it all, makes sense of everything. I feel like it's trauma-informed. It allows us to go in through this attachment lens of love and trust and unpack someone's story. And I am organized through just like the 3 elements that speak to our sense of trust. Like, we're looking for worth, we're looking for the, um, the idea of being sacrificed for to inform our sense of identity, unique and special that we're delighted in, we're accepted just as we are, and then the sense of belonging. But then equally important is the trust side of things, um, and I love the open and honest and the balance of give and take and the reliable and predictable description. So I love how that organizes me as a therapist to be able to listen to someone's story and pick up on the violations. But then I also love that those same pieces then teach us how to have relationship with one another. This idea that I can help come along some— come along some alongside somebody and help them to say, gosh, I do want to be a reliable and predictable person. I do want to be transparent. I want to— I don't want to withhold information. I want to be open and clear And I, I want people— I will sacrifice for people. I will like give of myself, of my time and my talent and my treasure, and invest in people. I'm going to store up my treasures in heaven. That's people. We're going to store people in heaven. We're going to invest in them. So I love the both sides of that, um, as a, as a way to unpack pain, but then also teach us how to— how is it that we do this? And then I love the 4 steps. I— that is the best mindfulness tool I know of. I love how it works to renew our mind, to create new neuropathways. Um, I love the vertical love. I love the horizontal love. I love the idea of this parenting model of it is our job to pour out love and nurture and acceptance and approval and provision and sacrifice. And that it becomes fair in the next generation, and we're part of that. So much about this model. What else do I love?

Well, it sounds like the organizing piece is like really important to you. And like, even when you went in to that first session or first few sessions of Robin, seeing the— I don't even know what it would look like, how she had it diagrammed.

The chart, the pain chart, the pain chart.

Yeah, but just like blown up maybe on the wall.

Yeah, she just have it— she had it written on her whiteboard.

Oh, okay. Um, that's so like somehow like seeing that like organized you too as well. Like that was like super helpful for you, like you gravitated towards that.

I gravitated towards that in a big way as a— as like the hidden code behind what I've been trying to figure out my whole life. Yeah, yeah, it, it is the code. I mean, how do you take off the old self? How do you put on the new self? This is how. It's in 4 very simple— not easy— simple, straightforward steps.

Yeah.

And it's the hardest thing you'll ever do.

Are, are you— and maybe Lance observes this too, I don't know if Lance has supervised over the years or participated anything, but like Are you pretty directive as a therapist, like, you know, coming in and like helping clients organize fairly quickly, um, with handouts or charts? Like, I'm just kind of curious what the experience of like it would be in the room with you as the therapist.

That's a good question. I think I— I don't know if you'd agree, Lance— I think I have been up until most recently, like Everybody gets— everyone gets my lessons. I do lean on psychoeducation probably too much. I love to teach. I love the psychoeducation because for me it was such an experience of just tell me this and oh, I can take it from here, I can do it now. I like to do that piece of it, but most recently I have not been teaching the model as much in therapy and just using the model as my experience with the client and leaning more on the experiential side of, of therapy. So I'm 2 years licensed now, and maybe I'm— I don't know if I'm graduating into that or more comfortable with it, but I still think if we don't go through— for me, if we don't go through and explain it and give people these— the, the moral reason why, the understanding of what is why we're doing what we're doing, Then sometimes I feel like they don't get as much of a tool to take with them when they leave the office. So I do like to, to give as much— I love to give as much information as possible. Also because when I first walked into therapy, when I first walked into Arlis's office, I wanted to know, what are you doing with my mind? What is going on here? What is the method behind this madness? And don't mess with my mind. So I wanted to understand that. And so I try and be as forthright as possible. This is why I'm asking you this question. This is what we're looking for. And to help people's nervous systems calm down.

Yeah, no, that's helpful. I would imagine there's, for most therapists listening, I mean, myself at least, there's a blending of experiential psychoeducation, different things depending on who the client is and where we are in the process and You know, just like, how does that, how does that look? And I, you know, obviously working with Lance, Lance is one of the most experiential people I know. So you probably can't help but be experiential in the room. But that, that, that, you know, and it's easy when you're working, especially with a couple, if you're not organized for things to become really chaotic, you know. And so I love as you kind of latched on to the organization of the model, it seems like was what has what resonated with you the most.

Yeah, yeah, I would say the organization of the model, and it's so steeped and grounded in the truth, which made it safe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'd say I've definitely seen that with, um, Joanne. She's definitely been a, um— I think with her background, she, she used to run the— this women's Bible study thing. I forget the name of it.

Real women.

REAL Women, which is an acronym for Relationships, Encouragement, Authenticity, and Love. So there you go. So everything's like— so there's like elements that kind of keep you grounded, like things to come back to. I think when she uses psychoeducation, it's like a nice grounding tool, um, and, and helps people to make sense. Um, and, um, you know, Terri Terry does say it's like, he doesn't say 100% practice. He says 20 to 80. So like to have 20% insight, um, is, is important. Um, and I think what I've seen from you is that you're, that, that you're leaning into a little bit more practice, um, um, as well as insight. And I think you, you do an interesting job with turning insight into practice, which I think is really impressive, like to be able to um, turn— like, take a moment of, like, a teaching moment and then have it have a practice flow with it. So I think that's something that's, um, from a therapeutic lens, you know, like, if you teach somebody something and say, well, go do that, you know, that's one thing. But if you say, let's try it now, you know, I think that's—

you have an example, Lance? Either, either, or Joanna might have an example when you take that that teaching moment and to put into practice?

I don't know, I have a bunch in my mind. Is there— I, I don't know if you'd want to talk about— I mean, we talked about this earlier with like, for instance, one of the things I really love that Joanne did, she used to do these and she still does these, um, groups at our office. And so we'll have the clients work on their pain cycles, very psychoeducational tool, like, thing. Yeah, like going through it. Then she has them paint like with watercolor. Or is it always watercolor or do you mix it up?

I offer watercolor or colored pencils.

Yeah. And, and you'll see these like amazing illustrations of people talking about their paint, like where their pain cycle like comes to life. So it's like this, like she's taken this insight-oriented tool and she— and then she's like personalized it with her client, right? Um, which is absolutely amazing. Um, once it's personalized, like, oh yeah, and then like there's some reference point to a story in their life or something that they've leaned into. Um, and then she goes to the next level where she'll say, okay, let's take a session, or let's take a moment now and let's, let's take some time to— I want you to paint your pain cycle or your peace cycle. And it creates this awesome juxtaposition that you can do in the therapy room. Um, so that was like the first one I thought of.

Yeah, no, it's awesome. Yeah, I was just curious for people listening, you know, because one of the things that we try to do in this podcast too is like, just how do we— the stuff we talk about, how do we put it to use in the room and practice? And I like that idea of the watercolors and the pencils.

Yeah, that has been helpful in, in the— when I do that in the therapy room, not in group, but, but just with one-on-one, it helps people to externalize the pain and get them out of the context of every little thing that has happened to them, which is so important and valid and needs to be said, but it It gets us into, okay, you know, using shape and color and size and metaphor, whatever it is, show me your pain cycle and then tell me about that. And what did that color mean? And what, what do you look at first? And what's jumping out at you? And what part of this do you need me to know? And it, it just shifts us out of like this story of what happened to us to what is the experience of this pain? What message are you taking from it? And we can get deeper with it. So I really enjoy work. I really enjoy painting, drawing, um, as far as a way of exploring the pain. And then even the coping mechanisms. And this, that, you know, that red, what does that mean? Well, that red is my anger. Okay, well, show me when you're angry, what does that look like? Stand up, show me like the stance. What does your face look like? What does your body look like? Oh, I see. So when you do, when you're angry and you're doing this, what do people do back at you? Oh, and then I, we can do that together. And well, what is that like for you? And we literally can, can move it out of, like I said, their story and into more of an understanding of, can I look at myself now and see how I'm keeping myself in my own prison and how this is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy? So that part of— I enjoy that part of Restriction Therapy too. That's another favorite part. And you can do this with PEACE. It's harder. I struggle more. I struggle more to do this with PEACE because I think humans struggle more with internalizing the truth about who they are. And understanding that. So I find this is— it's really effective with the pain cycle, but helping people— and we can do this through painting— we can slow them down in their peace cycle. And now, can we start to savor this truth about who you are? And can we explore, like, this painting? And what is this color, this shape, the size, this metaphor? What is that taste like, look like, feel like, sound like? And can we explore it in all those ways and just savor it? But that's, that's hard. That's, that's harder work.

I mean, you're literally teaching someone a new language. Like, I think about your daughter now, Rhett. Like, she's in Zambia, and it's— isn't Zambia the land of Bantu, like, language, where you have to speak onto.

I don't know, you know more than me.

I used to be a missions pastor, so I really liked to— but like, like you're going there, you have to learn a new language. It's so awkward, and you want to go back to speaking English all the time because it's so comfortable, you know. Um, it takes a long time to, to learn the language and to think the language and live the language. And I, I think about that, you know, Um, like, I think one of the big milestones in, like, learning language is, uh, when you start to dream in the language.

Yeah.

Um, and, and I think what we're trying to do is we're, like, literally teaching people a new language, um, when we're doing RT, um, with them in the P Cycle. So it's that, and so I think that's why it's harder because like, can I just speak English? It's so much easier, right? Um, but no, we're gonna try the language of peace.

Come on.

By the way, Lance, a quick Google search says you are correct. Bantu. It's part of the 70 different indigenous languages make up the Bantu family. So look at you, Mr. Admissions Pastor.

Come on.

And what you're doing there— sorry.

Oh no, my daughter is part of a leadership program at Gonzaga where she goes to school. And so she applied to be a part of this, like, summer 4-week program there in Zambia with 18 other students and some professors. So, wow, that's what she's doing. Yeah, so proud of her. I, I am very proud of her. She's, uh, she's, she's had a really good year and worked really hard. So, so good.

Super proud.

I—

she's a big listener to the podcast too, I bet.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah.

Doesn't even know it exists, barely. I, you know what I'm just thinking about is like you mentioned how much you like psychoeducation and you work in ministry and it sounds like you run some small group stuff and you do things and then, you know, you're also like in the therapy room. I was just wondering, do you actually prefer some type of modality over the other in terms of like an intensive or being in a workshop with people or a small group over a period of time versus the therapy room? Or are they all the same to you, just different opportunities to use RT, you know, this thing that you love?

Hmm, I love it.

It takes a little longer that you're describing than the 1-hour, the 50-minute room, you know, like I picture you being in a room with people for hours and you love that like engagement.

I love that engagement. So I think I, I love group. I love group more. Group is my favorite. And I love group therapy. I, I can't say that I love intensive. I haven't done enough of them to know if I love them. I do love intensives as well. But, um, I love group therapy because I like that as people are open and honest and brave, they will share their, they'll share their story, they'll share their work, and then other people see themselves in that and it helps other people along. And so the group kind of helps itself move along as we get more comfortable and more, more brave and we're able to talk in a very open and honest way. So I love that piece of it. But then I also love group because group is organized. Group, I feel like, and perhaps this is more my pain cycle, but I feel like I have a little bit more control in group of where it's going to go and how we're going to organize this. And I have a— we have a destination and we're going to get there and we're going to get there within 12 weeks. And so I like that. I like the organization of, of the organization. It organizes even our team. And so I really appreciate that piece of, of it. Everybody gets the lesson of the day. We talk about the lesson of the day. We apply it to ourselves. We share vulnerably. We do, we do various interventions. You know, whether it's someone's getting reparented or someone is sculpting or someone is running bases or, or just saying their 4 steps out loud.

Yeah.

Yeah. We're, we're doing it all.

I, yeah, I mean, I'm scratching my own itch here by asking you that question, but I think there's lots of listeners too who love RT, but we're all wired differently. And it's— I just want to make the point that we can use our tea in a lot of different ways. You know, some people love the therapy room, you know, and that's what they— they're the best therapist and they love it. And other people love the pastoral care and the psychoeducational model and some like small groups. And, you know, I guess I just want to say that out loud because I know sometimes in the community we can feel pressure that we have to look a certain way and be a certain type of therapist or be the best experiential therapist in the world. But there's other ways that RT shows up in our lives and different ways we can use it that really changes people.

Hmm. Yeah, it does. I— yeah, you're absolutely right. How about you? What do you prefer? Do you have a—

I mean, I, I was asking because I, I mean, I think I'm a good therapist. I think Lance is a better therapist. And so I, I think because my pastoral background, I like the small group, I like the psychoeducation, but I like using psychoeducation to lean into some experiential stuff in that group setting in the room, like modeling and pulling people in. I think I actually like that more over the one-on-one sometimes over in a therapeutic setting. But I've also, like you, have had to ask myself, am I in my pain at times too, where I feel inadequate at times as a therapist in the room, like I'm, I'm not enough, which that's my pain cycle.

Yep.

And so I'm like, maybe God is trying to get me just to work on that as well and not— but I think both are true. Like, I think you can like both things and be challenged in different ways. And, um, I just want people in the RT community to realize there's lots of ways to show up and do good work And it doesn't have to look the same.

Yeah, well, as much as I love groups, and I appreciate exactly what you're saying, as much as I love groups, I did 4 groups, uh, starting in January. I was running 4 groups at once, and then I learned, oh, as much as I love groups and I wish I could do groups all the time, I could almost only do groups, I love groups, what I learned was holding space for, you know, 35 people when you put all the people in the groups together. That was a lot. And I was like, that's, that's a little bit much. So I, yeah, I think it's nice that I can, I can do some groups and I can have individual, throw in an intensive every once in a while. I think we, as to do the work, to do our work, I think we need it all.

Yeah, yeah. What do you love, Lance?

Man, what I love that I haven't gotten to do in a while is intensive work. I love— to me, that being in a room of people that are coming with these big expectations, right? Um, and, or, or like major hurts, and, and they're like, I don't know, I just thought I'd give this a try. I like to— number one, the courage that it takes to come into a room, uh, to do an intensive, to me is just— I have so much respect for the people that are there, you know. They're not just like, you know, it's not a one-off, you know, like, yeah, I'll try therapy. It's, it's like, if I'm gonna do therapy, I'm going I'm like diving in deep. Um, so I love that. Um, and I just love how the groups come together. Like, to me, it's just absolutely so powerful. Um, so yeah, we got to do ours soon, man.

I'm, I'm like, I know, we got to figure out— Lance and I are still working out some details for one or two this year. So yeah. Oh yeah, time is sneaking up, Joanne. It's cruising.

The year is going by so fast.

I know it's hard to do when you have a child. It changes so much. Like, when I was, when I was, uh, like, you know, just Jennifer and I, you know, we had no kids, it was so easy. I'd just be doing intensive with no thought at all. But now it's like, oh man, I like to say goodnight to my daughter. And, you know, like, you know, so sacrifices, guys.

Yeah. You're worth it.

Joanne, what do you— so you're 2 years in after license and everything, right? And you're working there in San Diego. When you— I don't know, I was just thinking down the road, more short-term, meaning the next couple of years, like, what do you— what would you like to be doing in terms of the work? Like, what are you really excited about or passionate right now about?

Where am I going with this? That's a good question.

Um, you're like, I'm opening an RT Center just down the road from Lance.

The competition.

I really like being in community in our center. Yeah, for sure. I'm not opening up my own place. You know, my, my daughter is a senior, is graduating from Fuller in just a couple of weeks, June 13th and 14th, she graduates.

That's crazy.

I know.

MFT.

MFT.

This is the one that's coming on.

This is the one that's joining staff, and I am super excited to explore some multi-generational work with her. Like, I'm excited to— I'm very interested in the, um, um, like how estrangement has become so, um, prevalent in our culture, and how do we take family systems and work through those dynamics and not have cutoff, or how do you do salvaging in a really good way. Um, so I'm super excited to work with my daughter in that way, and I'm thrilled to get to invest in her in that way. In fact, um, and she—

me—

she sharpens me as well. When I, when I leave here today, I get to— my daughter is also pregnant with my first grandchild. So excited for that. She delivers, she delivers her baby. The baby's due June 17th. She graduates June 14th. She is very pregnant right now.

It's, it's apparent.

It's apparent. And, um, I've been offering this whole— her first trimester when she was sick, and I— and this trimester, I keep offering, can I drive you up to Fuller? She lives in Oceanside. Can I drive you up to Fuller? That's a 2-hour drive. And she finally took me up on that. So today I'm driving her up to Fuller, and I'm gonna sit in her class with Melissa Simington, which I'm super excited to sit in this class.

She's awesome.

Yeah, very excited to, to learn alongside Lauren and then to have dialogue with her. And I think I'm excited about doing therapy with my girl.

You're, you're kind of getting back to the roots there of, uh, Restoration Therapy, this intergenerational Yes, work, it sounds like. Yeah, that's really cool that you, you have a daughter who's in this line of work and you guys can engage from your own personal experiences and help other people.

Such a blessing, it really is. Yeah, it's, it's rich. And you know, my sister Karen, who lives in Colorado, she also, she She's not a therapist, but she went and did the coaching class with Megan. She's now an RT coach, and she is slowly taking what she's learned, and she's been taking along people. She's also— she's— she was a pastor's wife. Her husband is no longer a pastor, but she's just— she has that way about her, and there's always people in her life that she's mentoring and coming alongside. And I could see myself working with my my sister as well and doing, doing things with her as well. So that's my future.

Well, that's a lot. It's a lot of big family therapist things.

Yeah, it is a lot of things, but it's, it's, it's— I think it's taking what we know to be true, this, this covert way of sharing the gospel.

Yeah.

And doing that with the people that I love the most.

Yeah, I actually, over the weekend, I sent Lance an article about— that had this— the title was 'Is Therapy Tearing Us Apart?' Oh yeah, that was an interesting— by Jonathan Alpert. And kind of looking at people kind of just sitting in their pain a lot and regurgitating their pain, and how just like sitting in her pain for long seasons of time and, you know, is moving people towards cutting off relationships, estrangement, but not moving people towards change, you know, or any type of restoration. I mean, that's, that's a real general sense of the larger article. But I sent that to Lance because I'm like, there's just some really bad therapy out there. And if you just sit in your pain nonstop and just that's all you do, you never move towards restoration. And so like, I love this idea of, you know, that you're excited about like intergenerational work and you're interested in, in tackling this topic which has become huge in our culture.

Yeah, we become a very boundaried culture.

Mm-hmm.

And while boundaries are healthy and they can be a good thing when they're— when the condition of your heart is peace and truth, when they— when your boundaries are coming from a place of pain, it that's just a disguise for control. And it's, it's a lot of work. It is a prison to stay in that place of, I have to have all these boundaries in my life and I'm constantly controlling in all these ways. So I don't think that's serving people very well.

It's exhausting.

It is exhausting. So to help people lower the walls and not be as rigid and to be more healed and more whole and to have a lighter touch and build towards unity and restoration in families. That's healing. That's amazing. That work gets me really excited.

Yeah, when we had Sharon and DeeDee on before the holidays, they talked a little bit about this, but Sharon has talked about it more, how passionate I think she is about the need for people to work towards restoration in families if there's an opportunity versus just the boundary Yes, because it doesn't really take responsibility for yourself.

It's just like, well, I'm just gonna put a boundary and not, you know, so, and you know, when you think about it, like, from a, you know, this is what ChatGPT does as well. It's like you're just basically agreeing with your people.

Yeah.

And, and almost you're, you're working as a rebound, right? So when someone comes in, they have an issue, and you're like, oh yeah, your dad was horrible, you know. And, you know, we're, we're like being this like rebound thing without creating any responsibility for a person, um, you know, and just creating more blame, uh, while nurturing, you know, this poor soul that's in your room. So it just— I feel like it's so dangerous. I think we do— I think therapy has a huge comeuppance coming. Like, it is. I, I think we have done a huge disservice to a ton of people by, um, just falling into this weird suit of, like, the way it pervades, you know, humanity here. Like, we, we don't even have, like, good conversations anymore. Um, our, our comfort— we, we can't enter into, um, like unsafe territory anymore, it feels like. Like, I think that's one of the gifts of RT, of like when— I love how, um, Sharon leans in and says, you know, you can do hard things. Like, therapy says you don't have to do hard things, you know, a lot of times. Like, no. You don't have to do this. Yeah, like, or the hard thing is, is to lean into the hurt and the pain, not move towards the metamorphosis. Um, or as Voskamp says, going back to, um, what's the term that she says, going back to—

it's attachment.

It's all about attachment. Can I attach to God and be secure in myself? Yeah, which is beautiful.

Come on.

Yeah, so, and I also have interest in, um, I took Ron Deal's training on, um, blended families, step families, and I loved his training. And I love working with step families and blended families and helping that insider-outsider dynamic. And yeah, I have a passion for that as well.

What were your big takeaways from that? What would you like to— because Ron, Ron is, um, you know, his stuff is just absolutely, you know, um, we, we love him.

And he's a listener. He's, he, he's quick to send a text or email, like, just encouraging us when we have a guest on and stuff. So thank you, Ron. Yeah.

Yes.

Um, gosh, my takeaways— my favorite lesson from Ron was is this idea that families, the way families blend, and when there's a divorce dynamic and there's remarriage, that the remarriage of mom and dad, they want to blend their families as fast as they possibly can. And that's, that's their own pain. They want to make it better. They want to fix it, particularly for their children. And so they can go into the blended family in such a way where they treat the family like this is a blender or a microwave and we're just going to have instant family and everyone's going to like each other and everyone's going to get along. But to, to, to take that and put that aside and say, no, this is— this meal, this delicious thing that we are creating and cooking up here, this is— this is going to require a crock pot. And every person in that family unit is a different ingredient and it's going to take a different amount of time. To soften. And so he talks about how you put all the ingredients in the crock pot, and a, an easy family will blend in about 2 years. An average family blends in, I think he said, 5 years, 5 to 7 years. And then a family that is difficult in its blending is 10 years. And there are some families that never blend. And that's, that's really hard and unfortunate. But he warned against like the insider-outsider dynamic. He warns against this, um, the loyalty bind that the, the parents will get themselves in. You choose your spouse or choose your children, and how to navigate that, how to— how the parent has to really do a double duty in working both the side of the spouse and the side of the children and being a bridge for them. And yeah, I just thought his— I thought his work was amazing.

I'm just imagining doing family work and, and you're sitting down having this conversation about the stew and where you are, like, what ingredient are you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And wait, yeah, how long is it taking for you? How much time do you need to soften? How much time do you need to cook?

Yeah, it'd be a really powerful group too, uh, of a group of 5 couples or something, you know, who are trying to blend families over taking them for a period of several months. Because, you know, once the— I always just say, once the wedding train is— everyone's on board and someone comes to therapy and they want to try to get them to like slow down and think through this stepfamily dynamics is, I found it to be a very difficult task. Um, and so I could see the value of like a group where you just take families through that. I mean, maybe you've done that already, but I know you like psychoeducation.

Yeah, I have not taken— I've, I actually would love to do a blended family group. That would be really difficult, but the 4 steps work so well for that to get each person understanding their own pain cycle, why they feel the way they feel. Where does that come from and what they normally do and how that's creating division in the family, and then get them into their peace using the truth and finding a new action. And how do we unify this family? And how do we just let people come as they are and accept that child that's struggling right now to blend in? How do we come alongside them? How do we do this work? That's rich.

Yeah, I refer a lot of people to Ron's resources and I need to probably take a training myself. I've not taken a training with Ron yet. Have you, Lance?

No, I have not.

Sorry, Ron. We're working on it.

We love talking about how great you are, but we're going to come to your next training, Ron. We're signing up.

I won't dive into details, but Joanne, you might have heard that I realized listening to Ron at Amarillo last year that I grew up in a blended family and I had no idea. That was the first time I realized it because my mom had passed away when I was young and my stepmom didn't have any kids. So I'm like, I'm not a blended family. Like, oh, so, so Ron kind of, kind of lifted the veil from my eyes in a matter of like 3 or 4 minutes. Yeah. I've been you know, dissecting my own family of origin for 40-plus years. So he's good at that stuff.

So yeah, it's fascinating. We are— so many of us are touched by the family dynamic and we don't even realize it.

Yeah, it's nuts. I was wondering, is there an intervention that you really like? I mean, it could be the watercolors you've touched on, but I'm also just— if there's something that you've been playing around with in the therapy room, like an intervention that you really like, or you're kind of testing out, or Lance is forcing all of you guys to do at the center there in San Diego?

Lots of freedom at our center. Um, yeah, so, well, I've— I have two that I'll tell you about. One that I use in the therapy room and one that I use for myself all the time.

Sweet.

Okay, so the one that I'm using in the therapy room to teach the Four Steps is likening the Four Steps to a game of baseball. And so I take either Post-it notes or felt squares or whatever I have available, and I put down, I put them on the ground as bases. And then I have a squishy baseball that I hold in my hand, and I walk the 4 bases. And I explain that using this mindfulness tool, the 4 steps, is like playing baseball, and you have to hit all 4 bases. It's not enough to just get on third, and it's not— you can never in baseball hit the— hit a ball and go straight to third. You have to walk, run first, second, third, fourth. So I physically in the room will, will use my own 4 steps and say my own 4 steps out loud, out loud. And I hold the baseball as I stand on first. Now I get to walk to second. I say what I normally do. Now I get to walk to third. I say the truth. Now I get to walk to fourth and I say what I can do differently and do it. When you do that in a group room setting, it's really fun because everyone cheers as we get— we score, right? We've scored for our team as we've accomplished that. But, and when I do it individually, I cheer for them and then they— so then my client will do it as well. And I just make this point of, it's really tempting to leave today and to think that you can just say the first step, just saying what you feel. And I'm always telling people, saying the feeling is not the solution, it's the problem you're trying to solve. Yay, victory! We can say what we feel now, and you can tell somebody what you feel, but that is not going to be the solution for you. So let's move on to cope. Wow, I've discovered what I do because I feel that way. Let's keep, let's keep it moving. And the point is, you have to touch all 4 steps and you have to do it in order. This is how you're going to create a new neural pathway in your brain. This is how you're going to learn to recognize it. You must practice it. I ask them to habit stack. We're going to do this twice a day. I like to do this when I brush my teeth because I brush my teeth twice a day. You find your, your way of how you can say this out loud, but run the bases 4 times a day. And that really helps people to conceptualize what I mean by using the 4 steps.

So you put bases, whether they're felt, uh, what would you call them, felt squares, or I use Post-it notes. Post-it notes, lay them out like a baseball diamond.

Yes.

And have people physically get up and experience kind of walking, running through the bases, touching all the bases. I love that.

And it's so great, each base they have to say their, their 4 steps out loud. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like the Post-it note approach because I feel like it's— then you can have it in your file. You can just grab, like, you put all their feels on one, put all their copes on the other, put all their truths on the other, and then put all their new action or their new actions for home Yeah. So it's, it's like, then you just grab a mile, you just boop, boop, boop, boop, 4 quick, real quick. And, um, it's, it's a great way to do it.

Um, I think it's kind of visualize Lance Lorenzo Cantoya. Remember his obstacle course where we had him on video doing the obstacle course? Like, I could picture him running the bases and like diving into home and stuff. He's so— he got— he's so, so embodied in the— oh my gosh, his work with, with kids.

What was he crawling under?

A desk and stuff. All right, Lorenzo, if you're not using the baseball diamonds, 4 steps, that's for your summer camp. That's for your kids camp this summer. Joanne is giving you an experiential intervention.

There you go.

So Joanne's been using this Um, and our other teammates have like fallen in love with it. In fact, there's like now the 4 steps with a baseball diamond on it that they do with the kids. Oh, um, I've seen— have you seen the handout that Rose and Miley did?

I have not seen that.

That's super cute. Yeah, so they have like the— they have the 4 bases written on the, um, so it's like a baseball handout.

It's super cute, and that's so helpful. Yeah, yeah, because kids will get that. Adults will get that. We all can get this.

So yeah, yeah, I want to be left on base, man. It's the worst thing in baseball, right?

If Lance shows up with a Padres jersey one for work, you know he's ready to run those bases that day.

Yeah, yeah, I went last night, man. My, my eyes are all bloodshot. My voice is barely here. So it's a tough, tough— it's a tough sport, man. Where's all the whole fans?

Okay, so that's the professional. You said there's one you're using in your personal life. What is that one?

In my personal life, besides the 4 steps, I use stop, turn, slow all the time. I want to say probably on the daily. I use stop. I use Stop, turn, slow. This morning, feeling a little anxious about getting online this morning. I had to stop, name the trap. What is, what is happening for me right now? Okay, maybe I'm a little worried about failure, worried about fear and rejection. I'm going to turn away. I'm going to stop thinking about that. Just stop. Absolutely stop. Turn my back, turn my back on that. I'm going to fix my eyes on Jesus. He is the perfecter of my faith. What truth do you have for me, Lord? What is it that you want me to know? You get to come as you are, Joanne. You are more than enough. There's— this is just a conversation. Have a conversation with Lance. Have a conversation. You talk to Lance every day in the office. Have a conversation with Rhett. You guys are all on the same team. You love the same thing. How do you know this is true? Let's slow down on this. Well, I have history with these people. I have history with how God has never not shown up for me. And remember, slow down in that. So I use stop, turn, slow as a way to navigate fear, worry, and anxiety all the time. And that's another favorite.

Let me ask you, because I've been asking Lance this because I'm doing some writing on this and talking to Terry about it and Megan. I think sometimes it happens simultaneously. Do you call out the trap and the stop and then breathe, or you find yourself kind of doing the deep physiological sigh as you're calling out the trap? Are they both embedded? Like, I'm really curious in the nuances for you in that first stop. Are you breathing just to kind of get together yourself and call out the trap? Are you calling the trap and then breathing, or is this all just all together?

So when I'm working in the therapy room with it, I I call it a double-fisted stop. And so the double-fisted stop is breathe, name the trap. So that's how I, that's how I explain stop. And then, um, and honestly, this morning when I used stop, turn slow, I didn't do the physiological sigh. I didn't breathe.

Yeah, um, because maybe you were just— you didn't need to. You were already—

I didn't. I just needed to like Yeah, return my mind to truth and not go in a pattern that wasn't going to serve me well. So yeah, but, um, I explain it as a double-fisted stop, and then we turn, we name the truth, and then we slow down. And I learned this, this TRAAP method. I learned the TRAAP that there were four, four— there are four sources of anxiety. So I learned from the very beginning that the 4 sources were danger, fear and worry, rejection, judgment, self-doubt, failure, worthlessness. So I think of the traps that way, and I know that there are external, internal, and safety and identity pieces to it. And I tend to explain all of that in the therapy room, but when I use the tool myself, I think, okay, what is it? What's underneath that? What is the root core of what's causing you a little bit of anxiety right now. And so I'm able to name the trap that way. And I think we've since moved away since calling out these 4 root causes of anxiety, but I'm funny that way. You teach me something, I stick to it. Like, I learned that once. It's not—

it's not something I like. I like the 4, like, the 4 boxes of fear, worry. I, I like those.

I do too. Yeah, they're helpful.

Well, and you know, something may start a certain way. Like, I sent Lance a, a, not a screenshot, but a photo of Terry's first notes at our first private intensive of the stop turn slow, and he literally just developed it like in the back room in a few minutes. And it's still pretty much the same, but it's, it's evolved a little bit. There's some nuances and Um, I'm asking because, um, Megan and I are doing this at the, um, summit that's on the website. You'll see it up there already. So yeah, we're doing some stuff around anxiety and restoration therapy, so I better know what I'm talking about is my point if I'm gonna be doing that. So you heard it here first, people. I'm asking Joanne and Lance the correct ways.

So what I'm hearing from Joanne is do both.

Yeah, I like that. Oh yeah, double fisted, the stop, the breathe, the call the trap.

I grab one, it's like, you don't grab onto the bar with one hand, you gotta get on with two.

Yeah, one. And Terry says both are in the stop, but I think he prefers— I think he likes to call it the trap for first and then do the physiological sigh, where I find myself personally sometimes just taking a deep breath, gathering my thoughts, and then calling out the trap. But sometimes it happens so fast you don't even know, you can't tell them apart.

Yeah, I like it when Terry gets like super— like makes you get really dramatic with it though. The sign, I see you trap there, saying I'm not good enough, I don't have what it takes.

I see you.

I wonder too if, if we could hold that loosely, like, can it be, what is it that you need the most? This morning I wasn't having a panic attack. I wasn't so stressed out that I had to like breathe myself down. But sometimes, yeah, my anxiety has a grip on me. I might need the physiological sife first and then name the trap. Maybe I need the physiological side to be able to, to be able to name the trap. Today I just needed to think, okay, what is this? What is that trap?

That—

what is that lie? And just name it and move on.

Yeah, I think in the boundary, we say boundary of stop, those two exist, but there's like a lot of flexibility within that boundary, I think, of, of what you notice you're needing in that moment. Um, calling out the trap or, or breathing, doing like you said, Lance. I like the metaphor of like the monkey bars.

Yeah, yeah, I do too. Well, and I think Lance is gonna have monkey bars in the office next.

That's what you need now.

That's the quote I have my office, right, or on the wall. It's like, okay, uh, C.S.

Lewis.

Yeah, C.S. Lewis says, uh, you know, Um, getting over pain is like doing the monkey bars. Um, uh, you have to let go, um, in order to, um, deal with your pain, like, to move to the next one.

So yeah, and I think the, the goal— the, the gold of both restoration therapy and this Stop, Turn, Slow is that you can simplify it. Like, you can boil things down. All your emotions— that's a huge thing to be able to say— all your emotions boil down to either love or trust. Everything you're feeling, it's not big and complex, it's all going to boil down to the sense of identity, the sense of safety. And same with anxiety. All anxiety is rooted in one of these four things. It's so helpful to simplify that for people, to break it down, to say it's not as big as it feels in our bodies right now. It actually is much— it is much simpler, and we can break it down, and we can make this more palatable right now to work through it. So, oh, I just love that.

Which takes us back to Restoration Therapy in the beginning. That's all it is. Um, man, I feel like we have tackled a lot of things. This is a really, um, uh, great episode. I really appreciate you sharing your story with us, Joanne. I just, I'm so delighted that you joined our team, and you can see why our team is so amazing. Um, uh, when you look at, you know, the people that we have, uh, it's, it's pretty— I feel very blessed.

I do too. They are incredible people to work with. Salt of the earth. Well, thank you for having me.

I'm envious of all— yeah, I'm envious of the community you guys get to have there in San Diego at the center. So it's a stellar group of people.

Brett, do you work with people in practice? Do you have people besides you?

I am in my solo practice If you walk out my door, there are probably like 45 therapists, all therapists. Um, nice. That we're kind of this part of this thing called Therapy Space where it's just all therapists kind of in a, um, post-COVID. I didn't want to get out a 7, 8-year lease anymore, so I was doing these like therapy— it's all therapists, kind of like it's like a WeWork but it's only therapists. So I have a handful of therapists that I meet with regularly during the week who aren't RT people. We grab coffee and we talk and we talk through things. And then I've been working really hard here to kind of help foster the Texas community of, um, see, we're here, our little, um, we had a little Texas RT gathering.

I love that.

A few weeks ago in Austin. So I have some people around here that we meet with regularly and talk with and grab coffee with, but, you know, as of— I wish I had like you guys where it was just like a space where I could walk out and there's an RT therapist there. So I am envious of that, but we're working on it.

We're working on it one step at a time, man.

Yeah, I got, you know, just doing— I get to meet with Lance a lot. Yeah, so that's my, uh That's my supervision.

The thing about restoration therapy, we have each other. We are part of the community, and we're all over the place now, and we can connect, and we do.

That's why we do the dialogue.

I said— and the way of excellence that we reference a lot, Brad Stolberg, he's like, if you want to do good work, you know, find a community of people and spend the next 10 years doing like deep work in that community. That's how you become excellent at something. And so I think, you know, RT is my home. It's your guys' home. It's other people's homes. And it's the, it's the place I think that we can all become masters of our craft, hopefully.

And that's why we have to run the bases.

Yeah. Well, it's to get home.

To get home.

That's right.

I love it. All right, well, everybody listening, um, all the show notes, links, links to Joanna's, um, website and page on the Restoration Therapy, um, Center there in San Diego will be up. Uh, don't forget to, um, or sorry, I was gonna also say we'll also have links to the summit and anything else that we've discussed, um, any books references that Joanne's made to in this podcast, we'll have up there. So check us out on Spotify, YouTube, Apple, and the Substack. Yeah, so thanks for tuning in, episode 73.

Thanks everyone, see you guys, bye, cheers!