Season 2 | Episode 87 | Lance and Rhett on What They are Learning, Reading, and More

Lance, what's up, man?

Rad. What's going on, man?

You know, Tuesday, almost afternoon, morning for you. Episode 87.

Boom, 87. It's heaven.

Cruising along.

That's crazy. We've done some— we made it some distance.

Yeah.

Together.

Let's, um, let's do a couple announcements and then—

Okay.

You and I are gonna do something a little different. We're just gonna— we don't have a guest today and we— you and I wanted to riff on some things that we've been kind of like thinking about that's been coming up. Some relates to previous conversations with guests, some of it relates to things you and I are just wrestling with, and we just kind of wanted to, I don't know, yeah, riff on that. Because I think when we talk about some of these things, um, it resonates with other people. People are going through the same things, therapists are thinking the same things, at least we believe so. Yeah. So we hope it'll be helpful, a little inner peek into our Internal monologues, dialogues.

I mean, I think that was kind of like when we set up the podcast, it would be like if we were hanging out in a coffee shop talking therapy.

Yeah.

What would the conversation look like? Um, so like we're literally gonna hang out in a coffee shop today with our coffee. Hey, oh yeah. Um, and, uh, talk about life and therapy and where, where there's interlocking stuff. So

yeah, my convers— our conversation with John Dyer last week, essentially that's kind of like when I'm hanging out with him over a meal, we're just like diving into that stuff. And

that's a cool episode.

Yeah, it was. Um, okay, so the biggest announcement is the summit.

Yep, sign up.

Sign up. Early bird is, is over essentially November 1st.

Yeah,

and

the workshops are now listed, guys. Get on the website.

Thank you. Shout out to Steven Perez,

dude. Our guy.

Yeah, that's a lot of work to get that stuff done. Um, I'm not the most intuitive background, you know. I think it was built on WordPress, which WordPress is awesome, it's just not very intuitive. So Stephen was working really hard to get that up. Thank you.

Not only that, Stephen, going back to our AI conversation, Stephen, like, Stephen took these, um, headshots of us and he had the choice. He could have just, um, taken— used AI and made the headshots come together. But no, Stephen, he's a good old man and a good old fella. He went through and he took the pictures and he Uh, used good old Photoshop and found ways to make it look like we're hanging out. I like what he did with, uh, Mike Pacheco and I for our, for our talk. It's, uh, like Mike, Mike and I look like, um, uh, what's this shit? What's the movie? Um,

Step Brothers.

Step Brothers. Yeah.

Yeah.

So

it's good stuff. We appreciate that, Steven. All hands on deck helping out.

Dude, so thankful.

So it is March 4th and 5th.

Yes.

Thursday and Friday, all day. Plan to be there all day. And then Wednesday, again, as I said before, people will be in town. We'll probably do something non-official, some activities around Malibu, Pepperdine, etc. And we have really probably about a third of max capacity have already signed up from what we expect for this conference. We expected to sell it out, and early bird is not even over yet, and we're already pretty much at a third, one-third of the way through signups. So if you want to go, definitely sign up. Go to the website, um, which is— it'll be in— Aro will put a little link up in the window here, but it's restorationtherapysummit.com. And we have a lot of workshops.

Yeah. Which ones are you most— like, when you look through the list, like, which ones are you most excited about, Rhett?

Well, this is hard because I look at the list and a lot of people are my friends and I love it. Um,

well, just talk about your enemies then.

Yeah. Well, one of the ones I was talking about with you earlier is you and Clint Davis are doing, uh, Building a Thriving Counseling Practice. Like, that's like super interesting to me. It's something that we don't talk a lot about, if at all, in grad programs. You're just supposed to kind of figure it out, right?

Just go out there, start your own practice, learn how to— yeah, it's a lot.

I work with a lot of men in my practice, and so I'm interested in Steven Perez's workshop on the restoration of men. That's like really intriguing and interesting to me as well.

Yeah, I I'd agree with that. I like Miyoung, the Healing Where There Is No Cure. I think some of the difficult parts of therapy for me are because I'm like on the Enneagram, I'm like a 7. So I'm like the eternal optimist and like, you know, so I think sometimes when, you know, there is no way to get better, like how do we hold tight in those spaces? And I think Miyoung is just such a great speaker in general. So yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and there's— so there's 24 workshops and then 4, um, kind of main stage plenary talks. So there's going to be a lot of different opportunities for people to try some different things out. And as you know, the best stuff happens really between sessions, all the relationships, the connecting. And so that's what I'm most forward-looking to.

Right. Yes. Yeah, we got some good characters. I'm excited.

So go over, people, sign up. That's huge. Uh, Lance and I also have a Turning from Anxiety intensive, um, pulling it up right now.

For ministry leaders.

Coming in January. It's for ministry leaders, for male ministry leaders, January 13th through 16th in Encinitas on the beach in California. So

Yes, and I've— I know you've seen reports that the beach is like disappearing in California, but that beach should be okay. Yeah,

yeah, it should be great. And, uh, we also can provide scholarship help for people needing it. We're only taking 6 men. We already have some men who were already interested when we had to change our dates. So turningfromanxiety.com. Lance, last announcement, you want to say anything about any trainings coming up?

Well, yeah, I mean, I got a training coming up, guys. Level 1. Come, come, come see me in San Diego. We'll have a really good time together. But maybe San Diego's too far, you know? Um, the dates of mine are— was it November the 12th to 14th? 13th and 14th.

San Diego.

Maybe it's too far to come see me. Why don't you hang out with Our, um, other buddy Michael Cox

in Austin,

November 6th and 7th. Yeah, but maybe that's too far and you're like, I live on the East Coast, I don't— I can't go out that far. Where can they go, Rhett? Where can they go?

They can go visit Nicole Zazowski in the New York-Connecticut area, October 23rd and 24th.

Yeah. And I imagine this episode will be coming out, so you might have to sign up right now for that one. But yeah, come get Level 1 trained. Level 1 training is such a fun experience. You get to talk through all the concepts and the deeper parts of RT, and you get to get to know other people that are using RT in the community. So definitely join in.

And it'll be too late by the time this episode comes out, but just a shout out. Our good friend Eric Salwin is doing a training this coming weekend as well in Dallas. So Dallas, Austin, San Diego, New York, Connecticut area. Awesome. We got it pretty much covered.

Which one would you go to, Rhett, if you could go to any of them?

Uh, I don't know. You know, I've, I've never been to Connecticut, so I don't know.

I'd go to that one too.

Yeah, I think I'd have to go up there probably, but I could easily get in the car and and just stay here in Dallas or go down to Austin as well. So, and you know, San Diego is a pretty nice place, you know, Lance?

Yeah, I mean, Nicole wrote the book though.

Yeah, that's true.

I mean, so that's pretty cool.

All right, well, that covers RT stuff coming up. So yeah, Lance, tell me a little bit what's going on in your world right now. You know, what have you been thinking about, processing? I just, I thought it'd be kind of a good conversation to have, as you know, I think the stuff that you and I are thinking through and processing also resonates with a lot of other people because a lot of us are wired the same. A lot of us are therapists, ministry circles. So what's been coming up for you?

I mean, I think one of the big things that's been coming up for me is, uh, you know, we just had This is like straight up the raw Lance, unprocessed. I was thinking yesterday was Columbus Day, also Indigenous Peoples' Day. And I was thinking about when I grew up, I grew up in the South, so our heroes are so weird that we choose. But the The experience around Columbus when I grew up was like, you know, and whatever, in 18— 17— 1642, Columbus sailed the ocean blue and like he discovers America and like this, like this amazing thing that he did. Um, but then like, um, you know, of recent, the, the true story has come out in and around Columbus and, you know, the things that he did for slaves and, you know, to his people. And, you know, it just got me thinking of like this, you know, this work that we do around, you know, therapy and, you know, the stories we tell and what gets passed down and just the importance of our work of like not just being like doing great things, but being great people. Yeah. And hoping that the stories that get passed down— what are the stories we're passing down and how do we want to tell the story?

Because as you and I were kind of talking about this, I was thinking about sitting with people in therapy and when you're kind of getting into working through pain and peace cycle and getting into family of origin stuff, You know, and again, the stories that we tell, um, and what comes up often a lot for me in therapy with people are working through their pain cycle. Um, they don't want to tell the story in therapy that might shine a negative light on somebody in their family, or they feel like to share that story will Um, just, yeah, shine a bad light, or that we're somehow, you know, years later, decades later, um, metaphorically beating somebody up, and they don't find that helpful. So it's really interesting, the stories that we do tell ourselves in therapy, or how stories like shift over time. And so when you were talking about like how this Columbus, how the narrative has changed as more light has been shined on things, I was wondering, like, yeah, how does that show up in our work? Just that whole idea, do you think? Is that even a question?

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, Terry— yeah, yeah. Terry talks about the whole idea, um, and trustworthiness on the— on that one side. He talks about safety, um, and in safety there's this one part about openness, right? Whenever he talks about it, he always talks about how in families there's secret keeping that happens, right? And that's a violation of trustworthiness, of who knows what and the like. So when there's secrets out there, you know, it definitely creates this What's the narrative that we're telling here? What's the story we're telling? And, yeah, so I agree. I would say that's where it takes me to conceptually from an RT perspective. The what to do with it, I think that's— I don't know, what do you think when it comes up? What is our duty?

In the room, or just like you're talking about culturally when this stuff comes up? And I'm not saying those 2 things are divorced, but what do you— what are you saying?

It's a good question. I mean, like, the cool thing about the therapy room is it's a confidential space, right?

Yeah.

Um, where people can finally let, you know, shine the light on their stories, um, and allow for people to, um, like actually minister to the pain.

Yeah.

Um, so I'm thankful for the therapy space. I'm thankful that there, there is a place where we can, um, open up. And, um, but yeah, I think that it is important to be mindful from a cultural perspective about who we're sharing with and, and the like.

Yeah, I was wondering what the trajectory of the Columbus narrative for you as you were kind of thinking about it and pondering it, like Where does that land with you? Like, how does that impact you, or how do you think about moving forward? Like, what is that? Yeah, I just— I guess I'm just wondering, like, yeah, what do your realization of that is like? What does that do for you, do you think?

I think I'm thankful, obviously, for the accomplishment of, like, what they did, you know, um, to make it— to make it all the way across, um, is I celebrate the accomplishment, but then I also hold the full narrative of the impact of what they did. Because I think what happens is when we venerate these people who have done evil things, these bad things to other people, it almost makes the people down here, whether it's the Native Americans or whatever was happening, it denies their story, which I think is not helpful to be like, but we discovered America, it's a big deal. These people matter too. So for me, I think the trajectory of it is to be able to hold both things in tension, right? Of like, I'm thankful for this, but I also recognize What— like, there were souls that were lost, you know,

in

the midst of it. There were, there were people that didn't make it through. Um, yeah. Yeah,

that's what I was thinking, this idea of, um, as therapists, that we have to hold a lot of things in tension off, off in the room with people, and people do. And I was thinking, um, I won't get into too many details because it's, it's my, my daughter's own life, but, you know, I was thinking, you know, when we went up to visit colleges in the West, Pacific Northwest specifically, every introduction of the school and everything started with some type of land acknowledgment of the school, right? Yeah. And she goes to Gonzaga, and so they have a pretty clear land acknowledgment there in the Spokane area and the tribes, and they're pretty involved in their local communities. And I was just thinking, you know, as I interact with her and I'm on campus a lot, just the tension that community holds in both acknowledging, you know, the people who came before and the—

Yeah.

The hurts and atrocities and also trying to move forward and redeem those things. My daughter had this interesting experience this week too, which is maybe a little bit different, but I was thinking about this is, um, one of her assignments in the leadership program that she was in is that she had to go have a conversation, have coffee with what they call the other, which is, um, somebody who thinks differently or someone who you think might be your enemy or holds different positions. Yeah. And so my daughter reached out to somebody, um, who she thought, oh, I think, I think based on, you know, the, the program we're in, we have some different views and stuff. And so let's get coffee. And after sitting down and getting coffee together, they realized just how much they have in common and how much, like, they misunderstand each other, you know?

Yeah.

And so I share that story to say, I think part of working out narratives over time, right, is to not just acknowledge things, but to put things into practice and to relate to people who are different than you and to engage the other. I think about Miroslav Volf's book. Oh my gosh, do you know what I'm talking about? He won all the awards for it when he was at—

I'm looking for my theology rack here.

I'm looking. It's one of my favorite books, and now I can't even— oh, Exclusion and Embrace.

Oh, yeah.

A theological identity, theological exploration of identity, otherness, and reconciliation. And so, I don't know, I was just thinking about Columbus stuff and thinking about a mix of all this stuff and land acknowledgments and my daughter's experience and that the work that we do as therapists, a lot of it is holding tension and engaging people who are different than us and trying to understand people and come to this I don't know, this deep place of connection that takes a lot of work and effort at times.

It does. And I think that's a lot of what we do in therapy is the people that come to therapy aren't necessarily always the people that are like us. I still remember Election Day, which is coming up soon, It— I like— it went from like I'd have clients come in my room and I'm in California, so I'm in Southern California. So we got a whole mixture of people here. But there were some people that would come in my room and they would be like so excited for, you know, their person that won, but they couldn't share with other people because like nobody liked that person. Or there would be a person that was like super sad and they're like, my family is going to be, you know, You know, like, whatever's gonna happen to my family, or they're gonna lose their jobs because of this person's elected. Like, it's like every election cycle that basically happens, um, where you have people that are, you know, coming in with their perspective. And I have my perspectives on things. Um, I tend to be pretty moderate in, in all realms. Um, uh, I'm— but except I'm really big on how we treat people. It's like, I don't know, it's just one of those big things. I like to be nice and, you know, exemplary in the realm of love. But like, yeah, I think this otherness and leaning in moments, that's hard. Like when you have a person that comes in your office and they're like, you know, hell-bent on their anger or whatever that's going on, like how do we lean in?

Yeah, yeah. You know, this kind of morphs into something else, but, you know, this, this conversation had me thinking a lot about, um, like technology and AI in conversation with John last week. And I was thinking about a couple of news stories recently where, you know, the anger mob kind of captured things, and then they moved on to the next thing that they were angry about.

God bless them.

And I've found myself like having all kinds of emotions around some of these stories, and I remember Volf in the book Exclusion Embraced— I'm not gonna be able to do it justice. I highly recommend the book. It won quite a few awards. He was at Fuller Seminary at the time, actually. He's at Yale now, but He talks about how the victim can easily become the perpetrator. Yeah. And I was thinking how I sometimes can see myself in the right, like something wrong is being done or that needs to be this way, and that my own emotions and anger can actually take on very much the oppressor then. And I become exactly that which I hate and which I dislike. And it's, it's very subtle, um, and it can happen without even being aware of it. And so that was something I was thinking a lot about and generally have concerns about in the culture we live in and being online a lot, and how what gets likes and what gets news is how angry people can be and how much the other is in the wrong and we need to be against them. And when we're not careful, we can easily mutate into that which we don't like. Um,

it's so crazy.

It is.

And I think this is like, to me, like, this is where restoration therapy switches into like, here's a therapy model that I like to— here's some like, I like to talk about pain and peace cycle like stuff. No, this is like restoration therapy has— this is the implications of restoration therapy is it's, it's not just this like cute model, but it actually It really exposes these things of like, you know, hurt people hurt people. And we see how these violations of love and trust that have happened over time have like turned us into these people, like where we go from fight to flight, basically with the blame and shame, or the control and escape. Like, I think you're like, this is, this is the implications of what our therapy model is. It's like, it's, there's, there's more than it being a cute model. It's, it has like philosophical implications. Yeah.

It does. Yeah.

It's wild to think about.

Yeah, it's had me, you know, we talk a lot about, I guess I'm just gonna kind of beat this story here, but like, beat this dead horse. That's not a good metaphor. I don't know why people use that. But we talk about integration in our models, a lot of integration. I guess that's why I like Volf so much. He looks at a lot of like, thinkers and theologians and philosophers and psychological theories, um, and integrates them into theological concepts and what is it— what does it mean to be human, you know? And I guess this has been on my mind a lot. Just again, we had John Dyer on last week on the podcast talking about technology. You and I have a fondness for our old professor and mentor Ray Anderson.

Yes.

Who talks a lot— his own book, Being Human, on essays of theological anthropology.

So good.

And just what a life is in terms of being human and being embedded in a place and a time and hands in the dirt. And we're getting more and more removed from that. So I don't know, I've been thinking about that a lot this week and catching my own self like, oh man, why am I so angry? Why am I so upset? I'm becoming exactly The things that I don't like.

Yeah, so crazy. I know I live that. I live that like literally. I mean, I'm here today. Like I I have an injury from cheering too hard for the Padres, right? And we lost, bro. And like the hooliganism, like this is like you know. All the isms that are out there. Each ism like speaks to this thing. But like literally I'm watching the Brewers playing the Dodgers right now, and like I'm mad at the Brewers because they beat us, and I'm mad at the Dodgers because everybody just doesn't like the Dodgers unless you love the Dodgers. And like I, I see myself like totally in my pain cycle, like in as I watch these games, and I'm like This is crazy. I'm a— is a ball and a glove and a bat have now like made it so I can't live life to the fullest. This is ridiculous. I like to talk about the dumbest examples possible. No, but it's like—

but that example like highlights how this stuff creeps into our lives.

Yeah.

You know, the, the things that we do to each other and say to each other in a game that we would never probably do if we were just face to face in a over a meal with somebody is crazy. Which, you know, kind of trying to connect dots here brings me back to, I don't know, you know, our summit, our summit theme is Regulate.

And yes,

Terry and Sharon, I don't remember what episode exactly. I'll have to look it up. But they did— we did an episode with them. on this concept of, like, essentially politics, culture. Oh, it was episode 35 with Terry and Sharon about how important it is for us and our ability to regulate our emotions, especially in the times and places we live now. And if we can't do this as therapists, we have a hard time doing our work.

Yeah, yeah.

You're just thinking deep.

I thought you were frozen there for a second, dude. You know what'd be funny? Sorry, like you're right. I as you were talking about it, I was thinking about like it being regulate and you know I'm a I'm a child of the eighties and the nineties and do you remember that? Warren G.

Yeah. Yep.

What if we did like a spoof on that and we like have like a— you and I do a rap on Regulators Mount Up and like, that's like a thing. Do you think it could catch on?

I don't know. People might be leaving the auditorium in droves if we do that.

Rhett and Lance had to regulate.

Yeah, so maybe, maybe mostly what I've been thinking about is just, if I want to name it, is working on emotionally regulating myself. Because

yeah,

it's so easy to get dysregulated in our culture, whether it's a news story that pops up, you know, uh, whether it's the politics of the time right now and elections coming up, whether it's something someone posts on social media, um, you know, whether people have different opinions about holidays. I mean, whatever it is, it's so easy to get dysregulated and to not be firmly grounded in our truth. And when we're not in our truth regulated, it's hard to operate out of that place.

Yeah, dude, this— okay, can we do a full circle moment right now?

Yeah.

Because we talked about this episode and we're like, what are we gonna do? Like, how do we want to move it? And I'm finding this theme around regulation being a thing. So the other thing that you and I were talking about this episode is just like things where we've been fancying. One thing I was thinking about was, you know, Columbus Day. The other thing I was thinking about was like Lord of the Rings.

Yeah.

And like, for me, when we talk Lord of the Rings, like, I Um, first off, when Lord of the Rings came out, like, instantly everybody would look at me and they'd be like, oh look, it's Frodo, you know, just because I— Elijah Wood's one of my doppelgangers. Um, but, um, uh, you know, but I think about this, that the, the story of The Lord of the Rings and like literally The— we have the Ring of Power in The Lord of the Rings, right? That gives you the ability to do, um, amazing things, but it destroys you. Like, it makes you— it turns you, like, into non-human, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, or non-person of the— non— or race.

Yeah. I

guess. I don't know what they're like, like non-Hobbit, non-whatever. And, um, I always would like— one of my questions I like to ask people in therapy is like, you know, I always, you know, find their thing that they like. If it's like The Real Housewives or if it's, um, uh, you know, uh, Lost or, you know, um, you know, if we find that common thing of like,

yeah,

um, Narnia. Like, which character do you relate to most? And I find myself sometimes, like, you know, looking at the story of The Hobbits, and I'm like, I kind of do relate to them a little bit. Like, I kind of want to be like Strider, like this, like, amazing fighter, like, coming out, it's like charging the field. But I think sometimes I do relate to Frodo of, like, just carrying the burden of the ring and, like, am I going to— will I put the ring Like, do it— can I regulate myself and not put the ring on? Um, and that piece, um, you know, so it's kind of like one of the interventions I really love doing is, is to find story and, um, to, to look at this, like, how we regulate and, like, you know, talking through, you know, that person, like, what's, what's, what it means to be you and what it means, like, what makes you other.

Yeah. So finding a story and using that as like the context of like the intervention.

Yeah.

Is something you, you like to do?

Yeah, I think it's like, it's really fun to play with. And, and yeah, you know, obviously everything breaks down at some point, but—

I haven't done this, but you could just to kind of like think out loud here. If someone comes in your office from, let's say, a certain cultural or political view, right? And let's just use the Columbus holiday, the Indigenous holiday. You could have that client literally in that story playing different roles and doing interventions with them to help them To just kind of see things from multiple, multiple views, to take on, take on those positions, to take on those emotions. I mean, you could do a lot with a client who is dysregulated or struggling through certain cultural, political, ideological viewpoints by embedding them in a context like that. Does that make sense?

Dude, I love it.

I mean, I haven't— people listening, take it, you know, I haven't done that. I just— that made me think of it. Yeah, there's probably people listening who have probably done something like that, I would imagine.

Yeah, I think— and that points to the place of forgiveness work, which is obviously what needs to play out. You know, in the forgiveness work, we talk about salvage, right? Um, yeah. Uh, and, and one part of salvage is to do insight work where you kind of say, because I've been hurt, how do I in turn hurt others? Um, and that's, that's one thing that really helps us to, to move along. But the other part is understanding work, which is where we lean into and embrace the other person's story, the other, right? Um, and we, and we ask the question, if I were in the same stage, I don't know if I would have been able to do any better.

Yeah.

Which, that's like getting the full perspective on the person.

And my, my daughter who went to coffee with this, this girl who's a classmate in one of programs, they, they had coffee and they spent time asking each other questions and understanding. And, you know, my daughter's the one who reached out because it was kind of an assignment. My daughter, you know, explained to her why, and the girl was awesome, on board, like, yeah, let's go out and talk. And, and that girl walked away feeling really understood, like, people don't understand me, and felt like my daughter really understood her. And then after coffee, they're like, we should do this again, we should go hang out. And so It's moving from that insight, understanding, salvage piece to restore. Like, how are we going to show up differently? What are we going to do differently? What are opportunities for compensation? Right. And, and in this situation, there may not be necessarily overt forgiveness work, but there may be, hey, I'm sorry that I maybe judged you or saw you in this light. And I'm thankful that we had this time together and look forward to more times together. Um, so yeah, you're right, that, that salve, that, that journey of forgiveness shows up a lot in this work. It's crazy.

Yeah, this is so fascinating. I like, I like just being able to hang out in this space.

I— well, I have to give you and Jen kudos because I, you know, and I give you credit for it, it's on the paper, but I In the last year, I've done the forgiveness talk 3 times at one church in particular, and then I'm doing it again at another church here in November. And, um, I like how you and Jen have created this, um, chart with Paul Tillich's justice, power, and love dynamic and, and, and superimpose that on the forgiveness steps.

Yeah.

And that has been so helpful. For people.

Yes.

You know, and the questions you and Jen prompt, which is, you know, where do you find yourself even leaning towards? Are you more like justice, you know, eye for an eye, or power? You know, are you more like in the love? Like, what— how does that show up? Or how is that— how is that hindering your ability to forgive or helping? And, um, so that's been like really helpful for me as I've been talking to people about that. And that's on our notes. If you go back, we have that handout on one of the episodes. I'll put that in the show notes, but you and Jen have done a great job there.

Thanks, man. I think that, um, I originally actually did that with Corey when her and I were working together, and then Jennifer, like, you know, took it to the next level, I think. But, um, uh, so it— yeah, that was a Huge labor of love and like being able to orient yourself of like, where— what am I missing? I think that's, that's the big thing. Like what Paul Tillich gives us is like, when I think about the work of forgiveness, you know, and I, and I, instead of looking at it as a moment type thing, but I look at it as a, like a lifelong journey of restoration for the love and trustworthiness that was lost. Like When I look at the justice, the love, and the power, like, it— and I'm like, oh, that's where I'm struggling. Like, I don't feel like there's justice yet, or I haven't found power, you know? Yeah.

Sorry if you heard noise pop up. I found it. So it's episode 69 where we do the forgiveness, and, and we have you in that— we have John and you's handout there, which people want to scroll over to that. It's a great, it's a great download. Um, let me throw another thing out at you.

Dude,

that I'm trying to make sense of.

Okay.

You know, I really— I can't unthink when Terry said a performance-based identity is no identity at all, right? I think about all the time. So I'm always questioning when I'm performing and achieving, what— where is that coming from?

Yeah,

out of pain, out of truth. And I've been thinking a lot about the old self, new self. I was reading a lot of Thomas Merton and Rohr here again recently, and they use language like—

As one does.

That, you know, I'm a nerd. They use a lot of language like true self, false self, right? Or the ego. And, you know, one of the things I've been struggling a lot as a therapist and someone who's in private practice, and I would imagine this happens no matter if you're in a private or group practice, is I have to put myself out there a lot.

Yeah.

Like to speak or to write, to do things, to market. And essentially, I feel like I'm performing a lot. Yeah. And I think I've just been in this space where I'm really wrestling with who's the real version of me, who's my true self, when part of my work requires me to show up in my true self here in the room to be with people. And then part of my work pulls me out a lot of times into performance mode.

Yeah.

And I'm just going to be honest, a lot of the time when I'm out in public and trying to speak, It's driven by fears of inadequacy and stuff. So there's a lot of performance going on.

I thought it was just me.

I mean, it shows up in the room too. So I was just— I guess I've just been riffing a lot recently on, as a therapist, how do we— besides doing the work which we're doing and doing your steps and, you know, having a good therapist yourself, like, it's been a real struggle at times to feel like Man, when am I in my true self or false self? When am I in my new self or old self? When am I not performing or being the best version of myself? Does that make sense?

Yeah. I even think about it, like, in these moments of, like, I've had this great talk that I've given, right? It's totally emotional and has all those experiences and Like, it's like so in the moment. And then I have to do the talk again. And like, I feel like I'm having to reproduce. Like, even when I talk about my pain cycle, I have like my, my 5-minute elevator version. And but like, sometimes I'm like, I lose myself in that moment of like, am I being authentic right now or am I putting on the performance? Because I've taught— I've done this talk a few times now. Yeah. You know, and like, how do I like if you're preaching?

If you're preaching at nine, then you got Terry.

Terry, dang it! Yeah. Oh yeah.

You know, I gotta I gotta get up and deliver at seven.

What do we do, bro?

And then eleven, and then again at six. And so how do I? Yeah. I don't know. I just again. back to like Merton, or back to, um, Rohr's book that I really like, um, Falling Upward.

Yeah.

The 2 halves alive. And if we spend the first half of our life climbing, climbing, climbing, ascending, ascending, building a name and identity, he talks about the second half is to let go and to descend, like let go of all attachment, let go of that false self. And so I'll be 52 in January, and maybe that's why I'm riffing on this a lot. I just, I'm thinking a lot about what does it mean to be me, you know, and to make sure I'm operating out of my true self. And I know we don't do that perfectly, you know, it's on a continuum. We're kind of back and forth a lot. But, um, when you're working with people and trying to help them do that, you know, it's Like, you realize, oh, I'm also doing this work a lot.

Yeah, I think that's one of the gifts of being a therapist, right?

Yeah, is doing the work all the time.

Like, like, when we're working with other people, we're technically working with ourselves as well. You know, if you think about, um, you know, Martin Buber says, you know, like, people are all— every person represents a mirror of yourself. And as we embrace like honest conversations with other people, it's like we're, we're also honest, like embracing honest conversations with ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

And therapy. Um, and it makes it hard. Like, I, I used to really enjoy like getting up and doing the hoorah rah rah rah, and I think I still love it. Um, but there, there are parts where I'm like, am I really being myself right now. You know, I do have a lot of play that, that's inside of me that I love to be playful, but I think sometimes that it does get into, um, like this anxiety place for me, like right where I'm like this— I'm, you know, a little too wound up in the moment, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Hey,

wait, you're supposed to say, I can't imagine you being like that, Lance.

No, I can't imagine you being like that. That's why I'm, uh, I'm not disagreeing there. That's why we have a good time, because we can imagine both of ourselves being in places.

Yeah, we can. Um,

oh, okay. Make a case for why everybody, everyone listening to this podcast,

okay,

should read Lord of the Rings. Um, you could tack on Narnia.

Okay.

You could talk— you could tack on Lewis's space trilogy. I don't know. But Lord of the Rings, you've mentioned it a lot.

Okay.

I want you to make a case why you think it's important for people to read and how it would impact them in positive ways as a therapist.

Okay, I'm gonna just talk about reading in general.

Yeah.

Um, and then, and then I'll talk about why I'm— why you should read the pieces. I think something I've noticed about myself is, um, and, you know, maybe you should turn this podcast off, right? You know, I think it's something powerful when we, when we take— when we stop living in this land of nonfiction And we embrace fiction. Um, and fiction tells us so much, or even biographies or autobiographies.

Yeah.

I think when we read story and we lean in on story, uh, there's something that happens inside of us. Um, we soften, we, we— it gets us thinking about ourselves. It gets us, um, we put ourselves in that space. Um, and, um, I find that, like, I, you know, there's things that, like, let's go to The Lord of the Rings. Like, there's these, these amazing moments in Lord of the Rings where, um, you know, they're, they're, their backs are against the wall and they're not gonna make it. And, you know, you have, you have to, like, lean in with that person, right? And, and you think about your own story, like, when your back was against the wall. Yeah. And you're seeing this resilience play out. And I just love when you see that type of thing happen in a character. When we go through books, whether it be Lord of the Rings, Shakespeare, whether it be the good stuff, the stuff that really rings the soul, and you have really good conflict, you have really good shifts that are going on, I think, you know, it gets us out of this frame of, um, our own lives for a minute, and we— but we embrace our lives in a different way, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, I, I feel like, you know, when I read Lord of the Rings, um, and, and I, I think about the stories that are playing out, whether it be, um, you know, the, the, the different ways that they don't get along, or the way that they have this common purpose. And they each have their own gifting and talent and ability. And there's characters that I feel like I really love, you know? Yeah. And then there's characters that I don't like at all, right? And the way that, like, that develops over time, You know, that's what I love about, like, when you're getting into a book, like, a good book should— like, there should be a shift in your heart when it comes to some people, right?

Yeah.

You know, I remember, like, another fantasy book that I think just, like, totally wrecked my brain was Game of Thrones. I didn't get to watch the whole series, but I did read the books. And I just remember, like, you start out, like, really hating somebody in the book, and then eventually, like, the way he writes, he makes it so you start to feel sorry for that character.

Yeah.

And you're like, oh, why am I liking this guy all of a sudden? They're bad. No, they're good now. And I think Which is kind of the beauty of life, you know, like that there is this element of evil that's out there and things that are going on, but there's hope for change. There's hope for this world. I guess unless you're reading like, what is it, 1984, like these tragic stories.

Some dystopian.

Where it doesn't work out for the character and they fall for Big Brother or But I

mean,

I—

again, I know I say his name a lot, but I remember in a class Ray Anderson said you should be reading fiction books, that fiction is theology lived out in story, right?

Yes.

That if you want to be a good pastor— this was like a practical theology class— you want to be a good pastor, a good pastor is able to be in people's stories and And, you know, there's stories in your congregation, but don't spend all your time reading these like theology nonfiction books. Like, read a story. It's a good example of what theology looks like in story form, of God's grace at work, you know. Um, I think Lost may have been one. I really think it was the first TV show that did the flashbacks. Do you remember?

Yeah.

I think it was. And so you— this character is being despicable, and then they flash back to a scene in their past, and you're like, oh, no wonder.

Yeah.

That they're showing up this way, you know? And like you're saying, uh, with George R.R. Martin and the— and, and, um, Game of Thrones books or whatever novels you're reading, a good storyteller helps you have empathy and compassion for all kinds of people.

Yes.

When you get a full grasp of their story. And I was being a little facetious about why everyone should read Lord of the Rings, because I know not everyone's like a fantasy-type reader.

Yes.

And that's not my main genre to go to, but I've read Lord of the Rings. I love Lord of the Rings, and it's actually very significant in how it's like shaped me and how I think about story and endurance and grace and everything. And that's why I was also being serious, like It is a beautiful trilogy of theology in action.

Oh, yeah.

Of God's work in action in people's lives.

Yeah. The battles that we have to fight and the internal battles, the external battles, and this idea that, you know, that the sun will rise. Yeah. The sun will rise, and to have hope for the sun rising, it's like, you know, and for those of you that have read the book, that means so much more to you, to know the sun will rise. It just speaks to a new day is coming, right? And man,

Well, and you know, I know we're totally nerds. When I was in England a few years back, I, um, made it a point one morning to get up early. I was with my son. We were doing an event for him, this scooter event, and I drove over to Oxford and I went over to Magdalen College and where C.S. Lewis was a don, right? And I did Addison's Walk. Is it Addison's?

Yeah.

Which is the walk that J.R.R. Tolkien um, and C.S. Lewis were walking one night, and, and, and not so many words, like, Tolkien made the point that, you know, all these myths that you believe, these stories that you believe, like, this is the true myth, this is the true story. And Lewis, I think it was like 12 or 13 days later, you know, when he was with his brother, um, converted to Christianity, you know.

Yeah.

And so It is pretty remarkable those Inklings who'd get together and read each other's stories produced works like Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings and many other works there that those guys and other men were involved in. And I say men because it was the early 20th century and a lot of men were meeting together, not a lot of women in those groups.

But the Inklings had a lot of women in it.

Did it?

It had a lot of women. There was, um, uh, gosh, what's her face? Um, like, there's all these like famous conversations that came out of the Inklings. Um, uh, there— I think there was like at least 3 women that, um, that were, um, very significant, uh, characters. Um, who wrote— oh gosh.

I pulled up that Dorothy Sayers and Joy Davidman, though not official members, were contemporaries of those guys and would do a lot of work with them.

Yes,

I'll have to— I'll have to dig into that. But that's cool. I just want to make the point that since I wasn't mentioning women, that it was definitely a few guys getting together over beers discussing each other's writings each week.

Yes,

at the

Eagle and Child. British Irish was badass though.

The Eagle and Child pub in England there in Oxford.

Yes. What was their nickname for it?

I don't remember.

The bird and the baby or something like that.

So we've totally nerded out. I ended this episode with asking why everyone should read Lord of the Rings.

Yeah.

Um, and what we're saying is, as a therapist, it's important for you to read works of fiction and good works of fiction to be engaged in Um, theology at work, God's grace at work in the lives of people, God's redemption at work, God's, uh, for like forgiveness at work, all the ups and downs of life.

Yeah, it adds color to life, man. Yeah, it adds so much color. Yeah. So

you and I are all over the place today, weren't we?

I think it was a good episode. I mean, I think, uh, I, I'm, I'm excited to see the comments. Um, You know, people like to talk, talk to us about our, our, um, you know, podcast every now and then. So I'm curious to see what people will say today. Um, but Rhett, I feel like I just gotta hang out with you.

You know, he leaves comments, but I bet he reads fiction.

Who?

Mike Bishop. I bet he's a fiction reader. He's got to be a story reader, right, Mike? Yeah, Dr. Bishop.

I mean, with a name like Bishop,

yeah,

you gotta be into it a little bit. Yeah.

Well, we appreciate you guys joining us. We just kind of wanted, in between guests this week, just riff a little bit on some things going on in our world and things we're thinking about. And, um, again, it's stuff that we're kind of in process, so hopefully it came out okay. We're— we, we are works in progress ourselves. And hopefully some of this resonated with you all. And, um, you know, we'd love any of you listening who want to come on sometime and just riff and have a conversation.

Yeah.

Um, this is supposed to be RT Dialogue. We'd love to have you on and just talk about things that you're thinking through as a therapist, things you're wrestling with. There you go, Lance has got the mug up. Maybe we'll have mugs at the summit. We'll see.

Oh, I like your mug. I

don't know, we'll see. All right, Lance.

Bro, God bless you, man.

Take care, man. Later. Bye.