Standing Desks, Memory Foam & The Science Of Walking Barefoot In Shoes.

In this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Show.

When I got into this field and started to produce shoes, I found out that biomechanically, the feet are the foundation of the human body. And if you want to put any building or whatever you build, then the foundation must be strong. In our case, the rebound is extremely fast. It's like a spring, and if you walk on this spring, it automatically activates and trains the muscles. If you want to stand the whole day, then it's important that the floor is soft and has a high rebound.

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Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield here. And right now, as I am recording this, and actually for every podcast episode that I record, I'm standing on this springy, soft, supple, kind of like a mattress type of thing. It's made from this special reactive material that allows my foot to sink in and then spring back to its original position. It's got like this kind of float like sensation. It's like a memory foam mattress for my feet. I have one upstairs next to my table too that I kneel or that I lunge on. Because, yes, I do indeed live my life by the rule that I only sit to eat or if I'm on an airplane or a car. I guess those would be the other two occasions. So, anyways, this mat that I'm standing on right now is called a Kaibounder, and it's made by this company called Kyboon. And they're this Swiss company headed up by a guy named Carl Mueller, who was named by the Swiss newspaper over there one of the most innovative entrepreneurs in Switzerland and that he has rewritten design history. Well, he has created mats, he's created shoes, all sorts of things that affect specifically your feet and your, the tiny little core muscles in your feet, your knees, your hips, et cetera. So we're going to get into the technology of this, how it compares to like being barefoot, what actually goes into creating one of these mats. But before we get into any of that, I know that Carl actually has a, a very interesting story. So we're going to start there. So first of all, Carl, thanks for coming on the call, man.

Thank you very much, Ben. Looking forward to talk to you.

Yeah, me too. And of course, as you probably already noticed, Carl has a slight accent. But I really think that we'll be able to get through this just fine, right, Carl?

Thank you. Yeah, I hope so.

All right. So anyways, you started off in Switzerland and I actually don't know that much about your story, but I know you eventually wound up in South Korea and you went into self sufficient farming. So how did you actually start off getting into health technology? Like what's your story?

It's a long story. Tried to make it short. I grew up in Switzerland. I studied mechanical engineering. Then I got an invitation from the Korean government. They were looking for engineers, foreign engineers to build up the country. As you might know, Korea in the meantime has become quite. What you call quite technology.

Oh, technology, okay, got it.

Yeah, high technology with companies like Samsung, Kia, and so when I went to Korea, that was 76 for the first time, 1976, Korea was a developing country and they were looking for young engineers. So I got the scholarship there. I studied at the time when I was there, President park was shot down, assassinated. So the universities were closed. And I was thinking what I shall do, whether go back to Switzerland or staying in Korea. I decided to stay there. Fortunately, I found some Swiss people who worked in the hotel business. They needed European food, so I started to import food for them. Then I opened small restaurants one by the other. I imported skis. 12 companies within 12 years. I found in Korea, found out that I have abilities in entrepreneurship which I didn't know before.

Nice, nice. So you're importing all these things and working. It sounds like a little bit in even like food importation. But eventually you got into farming. Did that happen in Korea or was that elsewhere back in Switzerland?

That was in Korea. That was in Switzerland. Sorry. After 12 years in Korea, I had something like a burnout because I just saw money only on the street. Whatever I started became a money machine. At that time. It was a big money for me, a few million dollars. When I was 38, I was only focused on money and as a side effect, I got very sick. I couldn't work for one year. Burned out, completely burned out. And we decided to go back to Switzerland, buy a farm in Switzerland, and we became self sufficient farmers.

Interesting. So self sufficient farming in Switzerland, is that, is that where it ended or what happened after that?

When I was in Korea, I was going in the weekends I was went to the come to countryside very often, walking in the rice paddies. And when I was in Switzerland, I was playing soccer. I had a lot of injuries, knee injuries, back injuries. And when I was walking in the rice paddies, they are soft elastic when they harvest, because rice is growing in the water, it gives a very good feeling to the feet. I felt that all these problems, they disappear within a few minutes. So I wished to have something like this rice patty feeling under my feet in the daily life. That was just my wish. But I never thought to do something with this.

So you never actually thought maybe you should just sell people rice paddies?

Yeah, something like that. But we went back to Switzerland and I decided never to do business anymore. Because business nearly killed. We decided to farm. And we had seven kids, four of our own and three adopted. They cost a lot of money. And also the money I had, the rest of the money I had when I bought my farm, by the rest of the money. I invented rehabilitation center for drug incident. At that time, there were a lot of drug incidents in Switzerland. And by that project I lost all the money. And by losing the money, I had to find another way to make my life anymore. So no chance but starting to do business again. And then I thought that this idea of the rice paddy feeling could be a good idea. And accidentally I met some people from the shoe industry. It's a very long story from Korea. And finally I started with an instable shoe. Maybe you know, the rocker bottom shoe. I'm the inventor.

Yeah, the rocker bottom shoe. The one with the. With the curves?

Yes, the one with the curve. I invented that.

Really?

Yes.

Interesting, isn't it? Isn't that the one that. Is it Sketcher that sells that shoe now?

Sketcher was copying us.

Okay, gotcha. So you were the original rocker bottom shoe. Now, was that shoe inspired also by walking through rice paddy fields or what made you want rocker bottom shoe?

Of course. Because if you walk in the rice paddies, you unconsciously will rock because you sink in with the heel. The heel will be lower when you. When you step into the rice paddy. And then you have kind of rocking with automatically because of the rice. A soft elastic rice paddy you will rock with. With the foot, with the barefoot. And biomechanically it makes sense to rock with the food because you use all the muscles, the feet muscles, they are there to be used. The fine balancing muscles, the core muscles. If you want to train the core muscles, you have to start with the feet.

But by walking in a normal shoe or Even like a minimalist shoe or whatever, you're usually walking kind of striking with your heel a little bit and rolling forward to the front of your foot. Aren't you getting that rocking motion by doing that without using a rocker bottom type of shoe?

In the rocker bottom shoe, you rock much more with much more power. You use much more force of foot force. You use much more foot force when you rock. Then if you just walk in flat shoes on flat floor, the wheel effect, the rocking effect is never the same. And these rocking bottom shoes, you can see in the Wikipedia, you can find the founder of the rocking bottom shoes, who I am. I sold this company eight years after the foundation, after we sold 10 million pairs in the US and all over the world, I decided to sell it because I had even a better idea than the rocker bottom shoe. It's a soft elastic material like you explained before, this soft elastic mat. Imagine you fix such a soft elastic mat under your feet and make a sole of it and the kind of a shoe. So you walk on a soft elastic mat. Wherever you walk in the daily life, even the floor is hard and flat. You will feel very, very soft elastic. And automatically you also rock. Even the shape of the shoe is not a rocking shape.

So I've used the mat quite a bit, and I want to ask you a few questions about the mat here in a little bit, because it makes a big difference between standing on carpet or hardwood versus standing on the mat. My concern about the shoe, and I'm sure some other people are thinking this too, is if you put this type of memory foam that you've designed into this shoe, wouldn't your foot get weaker as you walk in that shoe?

If it would be a memory foam, yes, it would become weaker. But it's actually, it has two important characteristics. One is the softness, and one is the elasticity. And in case of memory foam, it doesn't have as fast rebound. In our case, the rebound is extremely fast. It's like a spring. So you feel you walk on a spring, and if you walk on this spring, it automatically activates and trains the muscles.

Got it. Okay, so when you're comparing something like this to memory foam, what exactly is the difference? Because you said it's different than memory foam.

The memory foam has the same or similar softness as our material. But our material, if you stand on it and rebound, you feel like you rebound like on a spring. On the memory foam, you will just plumb in and no force which pushes you back.

Okay, gotcha. So as I'm standing on this mat right now, the elasticity of the mat is making it so that my foot actually isn't sinking into the mat so much as the mat is almost like pushing back up against my foot, requiring it to work a little bit harder as I stand on it.

That's it. That's it. And your foot is free to move 360 degrees anywhere. So it always has the fine core muscles. Always, all the time has to have to react and bring the foot into, into an upright position. Again, this is what makes the small muscles move and work.

So what about if you, let's say you don't have one of these mats, but you just stand all day, for example, in the shoes rather than standing in your bare feet, would you achieve the same effect in terms of causing your feet to actually work perhaps a little bit harder than they would in say, like a normal pair of shoes?

They work much more harder because they move all the way around. You have to correct they are so unstable that you have to work with your feet muscles with each step you do.

Have you ever done any studies on this stuff? Like found out, compare to a person who spent a period of time in this shoe with the special mat in it or on a mat versus someone who stood on the ground or who used a regular shoe?

We did not make studies regarding the quantity of energy you use, but we have done studies regarding the effect on the small core muscles. The small core muscles are the ones which you, which we activate the most. So it's actually not a matter or a question of quantity of power. It's more a quality matter. If you walk with normal flat shoes on flat floor, you would mainly use the superficial, the long muscles. But if you walk in our shoes, you use more defined core muscles. You balance while you walk. There is a balancing effect integrated in the walking motion.

Gotcha. Okay, so what exactly is, I mean, is it foam or is it some kind of different material that you've invented?

It's a very special foam which we invented. It's a foam, it's a pu foam, but it's a very special foam which we used about five years to develop.

So what's that mean exactly? When you use a word like that with foam and you develop a foam, is this like a research facility where you're testing out different foam densities to come up with one that you can patent, or how exactly does it work? Fill me in on the process that goes into making one of these things.

To make the foam, finally, you use two different fluids, but each of the fluids consists of 20, 30 other chemicals, different chemicals. So you have to find the right chemicals to get the effect you need. And there are three main effects which we tried to achieve. One is the softness and the other one is the fast rebound. And normally if you want to achieve a fast rebound, you do it with hard materials. So this was the challenge to get the fast rebound with a very high softness. The shock absorbing effect is high. That means it's soft, but the fast rebound. And the third characteristic is the durability. You can walk on, walk or stand. By the way, you can also walk on this soft elastic mat just on the spot. Of course, you can walk or stand during two to three years and you will not feel a big difference regarding the softness and also not regarding the rebound.

Interesting. It sounds like the process of designing something like Flubber, the movie where they make the material that has to have the exact correct bounce and density. So in terms of your inspiration to create like a shoe and a mat, why would you start with the posture and the feet? I mean, why is it that you'd start there versus, you know, like there's a lot of companies doing like shirts, like supportive shirts, or like compression pants or things like that. What is it about the feet that made you want to focus on that?

The feet are, I mean, the reason why I started, because accidentally I lived in Korea and I found out that there is a relation between the walking on soft elastic ground related to the pain on knee pain, back pain, foot pain, heel spur and so on. Accidentally I found that out. But later, then when I got into this field and started to produce shoes, I found out that biomechanically, the feet are the foundation of the human body. And if you want to put any building or whatever you build put upright, then the foundation must be strong with a weak foundation, the body with the weak feet. You see, when elder people, most elder people, they have very weak feet, Their posture is not upright. What do you call the posterish? Bended?

Yeah. Like stooped over?

Yes. So if you want to put something upright, you have to start at the foundation. The foundation must be strong, flexible, and the feet are designed to be strong. Because our ancestors natural people, when they walk in the desert, their feet are so strong because the surrounding, the uneven floor, the natural floor, is the best training center for their feet. So they train whenever they walk. They are 15 miles per day. They train their feet during the whole day. And we probably walk 500 0.5 miles a day. The rest we sit. So our feet get weak. It's the Feet who need a lot of training and especially very good quality wise, very good training, which we automatically do when we walk on soft elastic ground or natural floor in sand at the beach, then you train the feet.

Gotcha. Okay, interesting. So in terms of this technology, you've got shoes, you've got boots, I know you have sandals. I actually have a pair of your shoes that I've worn around quite a bit. I got a pair when I was over in Israel actually. And then you have these mats. Now how would the mat compare? Have you heard of like this topo mat or these anti fatigue desk mats that are becoming popular along with the, the surge in the popularity of standing workstations?

Yes, I have seen many of them. They are totally different than ours.

How are they different?

The three characteristics are different. The main one is the fast rebound and the softness. If you want to stand eight hours a day, maybe with small interruptions, in our case, in the case of our staff in our company, they don't want to sit anymore. If you want to stand the whole day, then it's important that the floor is soft and has a high rebound. So it's very easy to stand for hours. Other mats, which mainly are made by pvc, which is much cheaper material, they don't have this effect. And it's difficult to stand for hours on it. It's soon after 10 minutes, 20 minutes, it feels very hard and not very pleasant.

Now what's the best way to stand on this particular mat? Is it both feet together, one foot up, one foot down, one foot forward, one foot back? Is there kind of like a best way to use this?

The best way is to change to just move up and down, like rebound with both, with both feet just rebound, like on a, what do you call that, a trampoline. Then you can change by walking very slow, walk slow walking on the spot. And also you can do slight running on it while working in the office, while watching tv. This is something which we very much recommend.

You mean like, like running place, running.

In place, Running in place, walking in place. This trains your body with each step you, you do. We do not recommend to stand just without moving. We want that the feet and the core muscles, they all the time move. And actually as you know, it's difficult to stand completely still on our mat.

Yeah. And do you actually have a treadmill? I've heard you have like a treadmill made out of the same material.

Yes, we also have a treadmill. These are the three materials we produce. Shoes, mats and treadmill.

How did you make A treadmill out of foam.

It's only the belt which moves around this one is made of foam.

Okay, gotcha. So the actual belt that you're walking on is made of this same, like, soft material. So you could use this at, like, a standing workstation or something like that.

Right. And in the rehabilitation, in the professional sports, it's used. In the physiotherapy, it's used.

Interesting. So what, in terms of your shoes, do you have particular shoes that are most popular as far as, like, the boots versus the sandals versus the regular shoes?

It depends on the country. We are active in about 25 countries. They have seasons. For instance, in the Middle east, they use sandals. They are special Arabic sandals. Also in Israel, by the way, we sell a lot of sandals because it's hot there. In Switzerland, we sell winter boots, mountaineering boots. It depends very much on the country.

Now, how about athletes? Like, what's the application for athletes? Have you put these into any type of tennis shoes or basketball shoes to see how an athlete responds?

Athletes use them for their regeneration after the trainings and after the competitions, not during the competition. Tennis players, old tennis players who have knee pain instead of not being able to play anymore. They can play, but actually it's not a shoe to wear during the competition.

Okay, gotcha, gotcha. And that would probably be because it would actually absorb force too much.

Yes. Right. Yeah.

Interesting. Okay. Well, I actually have. I've got some notes and links for you if you're listening in. If you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com kybound you can check out some of the shoes, the mats, et cetera, that Carl and I were talking about. I have, like I mentioned, one of the longer rectangular mats. I have a treadmill workstation, but I keep the mat right next to my treadmill workstation. So I'll alternate between walking on my treadmill and then I'll get off. Sometimes when I'm recording podcasts, I don't want noise and stuff, and I just stand on one of these mats, and then I've got one upstairs that I'll use for kneeling or lunging. And essentially I have that at the kitchen table, and I use that instead of a chair. So it actually is some pretty cool technology, which is why I wanted to get Carl on. Since I'm using this stuff every single day, I figured I'd better talk to the guy who actually made it to find out what the story behind this is. So it all comes down to the rice paddies, huh, Carl?

Yes, thank you Ben. And by the way that you use our stuff. Yes, it goes back to the rice paddies. The idea comes from there. Yes.

Yeah, I love it. All right, cool. Well thanks for coming on the show and sharing this with us. And again, if you want to get one of these for yourself you can go to BenGreenfulFitness.com KaiBound that's Kybound. We do have a discount code. The discount code is BEN10. Use code BEN10 when you go to the Kaibounder website and check that out. So Carl, thank you so much for coming on the call.

Thank you very much. Ben was great to talk to you. Thank you. Have a good day.

All right folks, have a healthy week.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield fitness podcast. Go to BenGreenfield Fitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.