The 2 Most Potent Hair Growth & Hair Loss Reversal Molecules Known To Humankind: C60 & GHK-CU - A Big Hair Podcast With Auxano's Jay Campbell & Nick Andrews.

On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.

This is not snake oil. There's a lot of products in the hair loss industry that guys are preyed upon and they get poor to almost no result.

Like what immediately before he starts to run and maybe 1 milligram after the run. If he never has any swelling, any stiffness or joint pain at all, he's just good to go.

Yeah, he's like a robot. It creates like literally a physiological and a psychological addiction to users because they know that if they stop taking it now, all their hair is going to fall out.

Help performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. Well, folks, you've been paying attention to the social medias or maybe you heard my podcast with Dr. Cameron Chestnut about PRP and anti aging and beauty and hair growth. You're probably tuned into the fact that A, that's a topic I'm addressing quite a bit of late, and B, I'm kind of using myself as a guinea pig, a very hairy, fuzzy guinea pig, to see what, what of these tactics, you know, anything from, you know, consuming colostrum to doing microneedling to clay masks to crazy peptides that you, that you smear all over yourself can actually do when it either getting rid of gray hair or reversing male pattern baldness or in my case, just wanting to sprout a giant old head of hair as a practice of seeing what I'm actually capable of achieving in the hair department. So in part thanks to my guests on today's show, as well as my friend Dr. Chestnut, who is in the podcast where I got covered with needles and platelet rich plasma smeared all over my face. I'm kind of turning into like a fuzzball. I mean, I'm now growing a beard. My hair is just absolutely sprouting out of control. You know, like those little sprouts I grow in my pantry except on my head. And my whole family is calling me Mr. Scratchy because I'm just the giant hairy puffball walking around the house now. And I don't know, maybe, maybe I'll stop doing this at some point, but right now I'm just having a of fun growing out my hair and looking like a dirty hippie. And yeah, maybe someday I'll even have a man bun. My guests on today's show are twofold. First, Jay Campbell. You might know Jay Campbell because A, he wrote probably one of the most popular testosterone articles that's ever appeared on my website, along with this book which is amazing. Called the Testosterone Optimization Bible. I've learned a ton about testosterone from Jay. And then he was also on a podcast with me about metformin and peptides and testosterone replacement therapy and a whole lot more. And so I'll link to my other podcast with Jay and that really fantastic testosterone article he did and also his Testosterone Optimized Bible. If you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com hair growth. That's going to be the shownotes for today's podcast. BenGreenfieldFitness.com Hair growth. And then along the way, Jay introduced me to this company called Aseer, which he actually co founded along with my other podcast today, Nick Andrews. And they make these weird peptides I've been smearing on my face and on my hair as kind of like this hair growth, beauty and anti aging hack. And these peptides are called Oxano A U X A N O. That's the brand name, but it's things like GHK, copper peptide and carbon 60 or C60. And it's kind of crazy how well these topical, topical, not injectable, but topical peptides seem to work. So I figured I should get Jay on the show along with Nick, who's really one of the world's top peptide product formulators, has got like 20 plus experience in the pharmaceutical world to talk about. I don't know, what do you call these guys? Like cosmeceuticals? Beautyceuticals. I don't even know.

Yeah, there you go. Cosmeceuticals is perfect.

Cosmeceuticals. Cool. Well, how'd you guys get interested in all this in the first place? This whole hair growth thing.

Again, Ben, it's always an honor.

Oh, and for those of you listening in, this is Jay, by the way, who's speaking.

Yeah, hey, guys. Jay Campbell. But, yeah, it's an honor for both of us to be here today. And I, you know, I know I'm speaking for Nick when I say this, but we wouldn't be here right now talking about this if you did not, you know, of all the synchronicities in the universe, start promoting our products, which was actually, if you remember, June 5th last year, the same day that we launched Oxana, which is obviously our scalp health and hair regrowth product. So again, man, props to you, man. And again, we're privileged to be here, so thank you in the spirit of gratitude. I'm grateful.

Well, when I, when I find stuff that seems to work for me and I wasn't using for hair growth. Honestly, I just like how. I guess my wife and I like the firmness. It seemed to really introduce a lot of elasticity. I particularly started using it after those. Those clay masks from Ali Torah. I started using it after I did the derma rolling and the clay mask, and my face would just seem more plump and more full afterwards in a good way. And my wife had the same thing going on, so we used it for a long, long time. And then once I started this hair growth project, I'm like, boom, I already got a bathroom drawer full of this stuff. Game on.

So to your original question, the skin stuff, I'll just kind of give our origin story. And Nick and Cher obviously, too. But Nick and I have known each other since 2016. We met online. Go figure. And became really good friends. And he. Yeah, he's an MMA guy. And, you know, he started sparring and was getting worn on his face and he's like, well, you know, I'm this brilliant biochemist. I can go and create a formulation. And he did, and he started using on his face and he was like, month in and he said, dude, I got something I'm going to whip up. I'm going to send it, let, you know, let Monica, your wife, use it and then tell me what you think. And so, you know, whatever. He sent it to me, I gave it to Monica. She started using it within literally three weeks. She's like, oh, my God, what is this?

Monica's your wife?

Yeah, Monica's my wife.

I met her at Next Health down in LA at the Boundless book launch party.

You did. You did. That's the last time, actually you and I were physically together. But, yeah, so, like, he, you know, she started freaking telling us this is the greatest thing ever. She threw away all her products. So, you know, I told Nick, it's like, bro, we need to sell this. Well, she told me, we need to sell this. So then, you know, that was in November of 2019, very beginning or late October. And then, you know, Nick went to work and we launched the company. Technically, I think it was over Thanksgiving or Black Friday. And then, you know, like I said, we didn't really have any traction in the marketplace other than just kind of selling to my brand. We did no marketing when you, you know, I sent them to you and you started using them and then you started promoting them, and then everything changed for us. So, again, you know, very grateful. That was in June of last year. And then, you know, subsequently till now, you know, now a lot of people obviously in the marketplace know about Oxano and obviously we can get into the weeds about it and how it works and stuff, but it's phenomenal product.

What were you doing? Do you just mix different things together in your lab and slap it on rats to see how much hair they grow or what's your process actually look like? How do you get involved in all this?

Yeah, so where I came in, and I'll actually take a slight step back to kind of the origin story here is obviously I'm a biochemical engineer by education, been in biotech and pharma for more than 20 years, doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Judo, full contact. The GIs are very rough. They were just wearing my skin so thin it sounds like a horror movie. But exercise, you'll feel sweat on your brow. Well, when I would wipe my brow, it was blood. I was bleeding through my pores. My skin was just getting so thin. That's not a good thing. And dermatologists will just throw corticosteroids at you, which, if you know anything about those, not a good choice because they actually thin your skin further over time. They hide the issue. They don't actually help repair it. It just got to a point where I'm like, you know, dude, my face doesn't need to look like road rash. I'd already been in the biohacking space for a while, have been using peptides for a while to heal myself in multiple facets. I know there's an answer out there, just have to go find it. It honestly took less than a day. Essentially trolling through Google for various research papers looking for certain effects, started finding the peptides that created those effects, then just honed in. That's how we started with the cream and the serum. I honed in on ghkcu, you know, I've been in the biotech, like I said, having been in the biotech and pharma space as long as I have, you know, the average person probably wouldn't know who to call to say, hey, I need some pept. Fortunately, due to my background, I did made a phone call or two. Stuff showed up in the mail and to answer your question now finally is basically tested it on myself, started using it on half my face, not on the other half.

Oh, that's how you did it? Yeah, that's a controlled N equals one experiment right there. It's like those truckers where they show that half their face is aged from the UVA without the UVB pouring through the window on the side that the trucker is exposed. To the sun on. And so they got one side that ages and then the other side that doesn't get the UVA exposure doesn't. What's interesting when you tell that story, Nick, is that in my own experience with peptides there, you know, I didn't really realize how much of almost like a topical, like a superficial effect they could have until, you know, way back in my bodybuilding days, some folks have been talking about this, this injectable peptide called Melanitan, and I never used it. I always just had my wife rub me down with the, you know, cheap ass gold flake tanning lotion, you know, when I go pose on stage. But eventually, like a decade later, I, I use some of this melanitan stuff. And within like three days of injecting something around my belly button, the skin on my whole body started to change color. Not in like a weird Donald Trump orange way, but like a really nice tan. Of course, the side effect for some men is priapasm, like erections at night that just don't go away, which some guys think would be like a man's fantasy come true. But in fact, that can really disrupt sleep when you're pitching a tent all night. And so I couldn't use it because I was one of those hyper responders. Like, I literally just had like a boner 24 7, so I quit using it. But at the same time, like, holy cow, peptides can have a really distinct, noticeable effect on, well, in that case, skin. But this was an injectable. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you were messing around with the ones that you would apply topically.

So peptides, a lot of them, are not effective topically. I won't dive too deep into the nerd stuff here, but basically there's a molecular size limit, generally speaking, as to what can be absorbed through the skin. Now, realistically, that means that the vast majority of peptides are too big to be effectively absorbed to the skin. GHKCU is one of the rare exceptions. There are a small handful.

Oh, and Nick, by the way, ghkcu. I know the CU is copper. And then what does the GHK stand for?

That's the actual molecular structure. So you have DNA as atgc. Okay, so it's the amino acid codes.

Okay, so it's like glycine or something like that?

Yes, glycine, histine. And I forget what K is off the top of my head.

Okay, that's correct.

Okay, got it. All right, so this ghk, it's a small Enough peptide to where? Unlike some other topical peptides, if you apply it topically, it's small enough, I think. What are you measuring? Is it daltons, if I recall? Correct, yeah. So the dalton size is small enough to where it can get absorbed transdermally.

Correct. Now, some of your audience has probably heard heard of GHK before. It gets a little confusing because the name is used interchangeably. You can get different forms of ghk. You have pal, ghk, you have GHK by itself, you have ghk, cu. Each of them actually work a little bit differently, so they're not one to one, interchangeable. Just to kind of clear that up, because that's a question that comes up with a lot of people now getting back to absorption. That's why I went with that. There are multiple peptides that can, you know, obviously are great for regenerative effects. GHKCU is really in that sweet spot. It's one of the few that is readily absorbed topically and has some really solid regenerative abilities behind it. When you look them up, it's actually pretty wild. The list of the mechanisms it activates is so long. It's like the old shamwow infomercials. It does everything except wash the dishes.

For you is a lot of that research. And I ask this because I know you can get it in injectable form too. And one of my friends, Dr. Matt Cook, actually recommends it a lot for injuries and healing. When you talk about that laundry list of effects, are most of the effects injected? Are most of the effects topical, or does it just kind of vary?

So it varies Peptides like, honestly, the vast majority of, we'll say, biologically active compounds, the effect profile varies based on the route of administration. So for a lot of common pharmaceuticals, you have a slightly different effect profile if it were utilized via IV versus an oral tablet or some other route of administration, such as a nasal spray. An example would be that your audience, I'm sure, is familiar with is BPC157. There are actually forms of BPC157 that are stable, gastrically stable, passing through the stomach. The general trade name for it is BPC stable. It's a slight modification of the standard molecule. You can take that orally, but you will not see as significant of a systemic healing effect because its effects, since it's passing through the GI tract, are focused very heavily on the GI tract. If you have somebody struggling with IBS or some other bowel or intestinal challenge, it can be a Phenomenal tool. But if you're somebody like, hey, I busted my knee, or I have some other soft tissue injury that I'm looking to heal, it's going to help, but it's going to be limited compared to a sub Q injection. People, you see nasal sprays all the time with peptides. Same thing. They're not useless by any means, but they're going to have a very different use. Or I'll say effect profile compared to other routes. Another one, TB 500, great for healing. But I don't like needles, so I'll do a nasal spray. It's not going to be absorbed as well. You are going to absorb some of it.

Probably get some pretty gnarly nasal passage hairs and some nice little hair growth and filtration mechanisms right up there in the nasal cavities.

So to come back to your point, though, ghkcu, I am a huge fan of using it Sub Q, it is a freaking amazing peptide. So, for example, a good friend of jnmi, he does these crazy runs in Nevada mountains, these hikes where it covers three peaks. For most people, it takes three days to do all three peaks. He does them in one day. So obviously joints get a little upset about that and you might get some swelling in the knees. We've had some great conversations. He'll do an injection, you know, 2 or 3 milligrams of GHKCU sub Q immediately before he starts the run and maybe 1 milligram after the run. If he pushes it really hard and never has any swelling, any stiffness or joint pain at all, he's just good to go.

Yeah, he's like a robot. Keeps going.

Wow, okay. But, well, what I want to do is really focus on the hair growth thing because, you know, I've heard of GHK Copper peptide before and we've obviously explored that. It's a helpful peptide. But then the other one, I guess, honestly, before I actually ask you about some of the more specific mechanisms regarding hair growth and some other tips, you guys have the other one that's part of this Oxano 12 formula. And I'll ask you about how you actually use this stuff briefly or in a little bit. But this carbon 60 is the other component of it. And I guess carbon 60, I may have misspoken earlier. You wouldn't qualify that as a peptide, would you?

No, it's not.

Okay, so explain to me what that is and how that's different than GHK copper peptide.

C60 is a Buckminster fullerene. It's a big fancy name for 60 carbon molecules all connected together. They can generally come in three different shapes. They can be connected as a cylinder, as a sheet, or in the shape of a soccer ball. For our purposes, we only use the soccer ball version of the C60. There are other applications, including industrial applications for the sheets and the rods, the cylinders. There is some data suggesting that they may not be so good for you biologically. But the great thing is if you know how to source this material from a technology perspective, it's very easy for the people who actually produce C60 to produce exactly what they want, whether that's a sheet rod or a sphere soccer ball. Okay, in this case, from a biological standpoint, Pretty sure you've spoken about C60 on your shows before. So the C60 that people would ingest is also the same thing. The Buckminster Fullerene in the shape of a soccer ball and the magic in it, a couple different routes. The overview of it is that it generally acts as a sponge for reactive oxygen species as a super antioxidant. It also turns out it likes to hang out around your mitochondria. Once again, your audience is really well educated on anti aging and optimization and all that. The mitochondria is really the core of all of that. If your mitochondria has degraded performance, that's the big thing of aging, not the only thing. But that's probably one of the major factors of aging that everyone has to deal with as we travel through life, right? It's doing two things. It's improving the efficiency of the mitochondria. And at the same time, in the general region that it's applied, it's acting like a giant sponge soaking up all those reactive oxygen species that can just wreak havoc cellularly.

So even if you apply it topically, it does that because in the past, and I interviewed Ian Mitchell, super smart guy, we had a fantastic discussion. One of the things that he talked about was C60 he talked about. And we didn't talk about this too much, but he, he did mention how he'd been putting it on his hair in his lab and he was noticing some profound effects and he was gonna look into it more. And this was like a year and a half or two ago that we had that discussion. We never did a follow up podcast on what he had kind of found with his C60. But he did send me some. He sent me some for my dogs and he sent me some for me to use in like smoothies and stuff. But it was, it was an oil. I Think he had it in an olive oil carrier. And I think now he even does, like, ozonated sea 60 capsules, if I'm not mistaken. But his entire delivery mechanism was oral. And what you're saying is you can take this and say, apply it topically for that same mitochondrial or antioxidant effect. Topically. And it works that way too.

So, Ben. Hold on, Nick. So, Ben, from that podcast with Ian, one of our listeners who's a mutual listener of both of us, his name is Joff Howe. Jeff Al. Ja. Fowl, however you pronounce it. Great guys up in Northwest, up by you. He reached out to me and he said, look, this is. Two months later, he said. I listened to Ben's podcast with Ian Mitchell, and I started applying. I had been getting TaylorMade GHK Cu pharmaceutical from TaylorMade, and I started using Ian's Carbon 60. And he sent us a before and after picture, and we were like, what?

He was injecting copper peptide. He was ingesting carbon 60. He wasn't necessarily using, like, a topical formula, but. But that was where you guys got the clue that these two were working to do something because he sent you photos.

Yes. So. But he was actually applying the carbon 60 topically.

Okay, so he was taking the stuff that was meant for oral consumption, just like smearing on his head and stuff.

Okay, exactly. And the. And the before and after was so profound that Nick and I were like, this can't be this. There's no way. So then Nick started looking into it, and we're like, found the research that there was higher regrowth, obviously. You know, I had already said that there was. So that's what led us to formulate version one of our product. And to what you said, which is important. The first carrier that we used was MCT Oil, correct, Nick?

Yes, MCT Oil.

And that was too thick, somewhat. The constitution a little bit too greasy. And now obviously, version two is in a grapeseed oil extract, which is much thinner, much more compressed, feels much better in the hair and scalp. Scalp more than hair. And so anyway, I just wanted to put that note into you because that's literally what led it to us formulating our product.

Wow, interesting. Okay, so. So we've got ghk, Copper peptide. I'm gonna sound like Marvin the Martian, the old Looney Tunes cartoon. My Luteum Q46 explosive space modulator. The. The GHKCU and carbon 60. So. So those are the two that we're targeting. And I believe you guys, I think I Saw some on your website or in your marketing materials or somewhere. You're calling these bioregulators, is that right?

So we do mention some bioregulators as a secondary reference on our website. Bioregulators. Just a quick aside so people understand the term. Basically, Russians were the people who originally developed peptide technology as we pretty much know it today because they got cut off from western medicine as a result of the Cold War. As they were developing it, okay, they started to develop peptide technology. The guy who headed it, his last name is Cavinson, he actually has his own institute now. People who have really dived into the peptide world at all have probably come across the name before. He is the father of peptides as we know them today. So as he did his work and he developed these, they basically said we need a name that makes sense to people instead of throwing out technical or scientific names. So just from their perspective, they're biological molecules that regulate any number of critical functions. So they just kind of condense that down to bioregulators as a general term for a broad class of peptides.

And so these two would be considered to be bioregulatory peptides.

Correct.

Okay, before we get into the mechanism of action, I actually want to back up a little bit because I mentioned my podcast with Dr. Cameron Chestnut and we actually got into testosterone, we got into DHT and we talked a little bit about some of the reasons why testosterone and DHT were linked to hair loss. Some of this so called concept of androgenic alopecia, I think he called it. But Jay, I know you're such a wealth of knowledge on testosterone, on DHT in particular. I was wondering if you could lend your own flavor to that discussion and explain to the people who are listening why it is they should be aware of the link there. And also, this might be a little bit of a jam packed question. Either you or Nick could jump into what that has to do with one of the more commonly used medications out there for stopping men's hair loss, Finasteride or propecia. So can you kind of weave all of that together for us?

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start and then, you know, Nick can jump in for sure or clean up. So obviously almost, you know, the hair loss industry in and of itself is a massive multi billion dollar market. You know, you know, the data that's out is really just for the West. We don't even know what, how big it is potentially in India or in mainland China, you know, in parts of the world that we just don't have data on, but you know, for obviously for centuries longer, you know, people have attempted to figure out and solve the riddle of hair loss and obviously, you know, Big Pharma, the bio world place that Nick has been running in circles for a long time, you know, uses drugs to supposedly what they believe to inhibit dihydrotestosterone, which is dht. So almost all the existing therapies on the market that have been developed are in some way or shape or form attempting, and I always say the word attempting to inhibit DHT production. Now Ben, in the real world, and I'm sure you know people, I know Nick and I know people, doing that is a really risky endeavor because obviously you're suppressing, slash inhibiting a natural biological system. As I always say, God is a lot smarter than Big Pharma. At the end of the day, whenever you're going to inhibit a biological system, there's going to be some form of a cascade, a second or third order effect that ultimately is not going to be healthy for people. Right? So if you talk to men specifically who have been using, you know, again, these drugs that you already named, you know, finasteride, propecia, even script minoxidil, they have a casual understanding of what's going on. But the majority of them, and I shouldn't say the majority of them, but at least a good percentage of them also suffer from side effects, erectile dysfunction, mood and well, being imbalances. And again, this is very simply understood. And again, Nick can get into the biological mechanisms of action if we want to. I mean, I don't think we need to, but basically, you know, you're suppressing dopamine, you're, you know, doing all this stuff through the inhibition of dihydrotestosterone, which is obviously a necessary hormone, you know, to be, to be, you know, going through men's biological systems. And if you're blocking it, you're going to create these issues. So everybody, for the most part, you know, who's honest is going to say that if they've used a dht, you know, inhibiting drug, again, propecia, finasteride, dutasteride, that they've experienced some form of, you know, sexual dysfunction, a lack of sexual desire or libido. And then of course, you know, a lot of guys get brain fatigue and fog and all this stuff. So it's a really, really complex subject. But all you have to do is go online and search, you know, pfs, which is called post finasteride syndrome, and read about all of these Men who have suffered. I mean, I mean, Ben, you know, personally, I've known two men who have killed themselves. Now, you know, was the cause of death, you know, attributed to pfs? No, but, you know, to the families and the people that knew them, they would tell you that it was due to what, you know, that effect. And again, this is a very known, you know, hormonal imbalance that happens for guys that take these. So when you look at the hair loss industry, you know, the regrowth industry, and you really start looking at the science, you'll start seeing that DHT inhibition is actually not a direct root cause or root causal issue of hair loss itself. And obviously, as you know, we just wrote like an 8,400 word article that examines all of the science.

You know, it's actually going to be featured on my website. I don't know if it will have been published by the time this podcast comes out. I think it may have, but I'll link to it@BenGreenfieldFitness.com Hairgrowth because you take a decent dive into this.

The truth is, is that the hair loss industry is for the most part founded on, you know, inexact science because DHT inhibition ultimately really doesn't do that much. Sure. When you inhibit dht, you know, you block the receptors and so ultimately you make a person addicted to that medication. So that that block, that inhibition of the dihydrotestosterone is, has to stay permanent. As you know, Ben, from talking to people that have even probably come on this podcast. And of course Nick and I know very, very well, if you stop taking these, which obviously is going to cause again a systemic imbalance hormonally to you, you're going to have to be weaned off, blah, blah, blah, your hair falls out, it actually exacerbates your hair loss because now you don't have that block and you know, your body is now attenuated essentially to having that inhibition going on. And you now cold turkeyed, which you should do anyway because of the hormonal effects. And now your hair loss is exacerbated, falls out. So again, it creates like literally a physiological and a psychological addiction to users because they know that if they stop taking it now, all their hair is going to fall out. So, you know, our article, you know, I'll let Nick come in here in a second, but our article summarizes how the whole industry itself, from big Pharma to all the people, the docs, you know, everybody in this industry who is promoting, you know, DHT inhibition medications cannot solve the actual problem of hair loss, which really comes down to a lack of, you know, blood flow to the scalp, which, you know, ultimately causes issues to the follicles, you know, enabling them to die.

Well, lack of blood flow to the scalp and arguably some element of inflammation, even iron oxidation to a certain extent, all these things that can cause these, these so called peroxides, which essentially kind of take hydrogen peroxide to your hair, which is one of the reasons that of course, you know, gray hair sometimes goes along with hair thinning, et cetera. So. So it's both the loss of blood flow and then also in many cases, excess inflammation or excess peroxidation. Right?

Yup, yup, exactly. Micro inflammations in the scalp are really it. And you know, you just hit on it. That's a whole other podcast. But yeah, I mean, think of the products that we use, men and women, you know, over the counter for hair shampooing and conditioning and all this stuff. And they're, they're, they're just pounding, you know, the reaction, a reactive oxygen species, you know, in top, on top of the scalp, creating additional inflammation. So, so ultimately the article at the end, when you publish it, which we're very grateful for, when it's summarized, it will give people a pretty strong strategy on how to actually overcome hair loss issues. Your predisposition to it again, as you said already through androgenic alopecia or not. So we kind of know now that through these various peptide products and other modalities that we list in the article, you can pretty much overcome, you know, even genetically genetic predisposition to hair loss, assuming you live a clean lifestyle, which as you just said, Ben, you know, reducing inflammation is the number one thing that you have to do.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, I'm shocked at my own results. I mean, you know, I go outside barefoot. I eat a super duper low omega 6 low polyunsaturated vegetable oil diet. I do a ton of red light therapy. I mean, there are things I'm doing that I'm sure are accelerating the process of hair growth along that I'm getting from the stuff like the C60 and the GHK copper peptide. I'm convinced a big part of that is the low levels of inflammation, the photonic light delivery to the mitochondria. And then also after my podcast with Dr. Cameron Chestnut, I bought one of those. It's like a spongy hairbrush with the. I forget what you call it, but feels like a massage on my scalp when I Brush my hair. And so I have it by my computer and I'm just kind of like probably like four or five times a day brushing my hair. Like, literally, like while I'm talking to you guys, I'll stop and brush my hair a few times. So I'm kind of like doing a little bit of massage throughout every single day by just leaving hairbrush lying around the house.

So, Ben, that is the key to get these products. So obviously all the other things that you're doing are great. You know, those are gonna additionally stimulate angiogenesis in the scalp. You're gonna increase, you know, red blood cell formation, collagen formation, collagen synthesis, and of course you're suppressing obviously the inflammation through the effect of the carbon 60. But if you do not massage the product into the scalp and you just spray, you know, the two phase version obviously of serum A and serum B, serum a being the GHK, serum B being the carbon 60, into your hair like a lot of women who have long hair do, you're not going to get the same results as someone who is actually massaging as you're doing, you know, with one of those combs with, you know, a micro needling, you know, applicator, then you know, somebody who's again spraying it into their hair. And so some of our customers, you know, have not got the results that you're getting. And by the way, I've gotten the same results as you because I'm just like you, living a super supremely low inflammation lifestyle. I mean, my hair completely regrew out in two months, as Nick knows. And you know, people can go to the website and can see the before and afters. I mean, you know, we didn't say this, Ben, but back in 2019, dude, I was nearly bald. I have androgenic alopecia. I went to our friends in Newport beach at Vantis and I had the micropigmentation done to my scalp. So the hair that I've regrown is on top of already having the Vantis procedure, which is, by the way, amazing, but it's like, I mean, it's mind blowing. So if you're living a low inflammation lifestyle and you use our product and you obviously do the things that we also write about in the article which you just mentioned, red light there, massaging the scalp, you know, very, very low inflammation, you will get results. I mean, I don't care if you have, you know, very low follicles. You know, guys with the chrome dome look, as long as you still have follicles on your scalp. We can definitely. This product can regrow your hair.

You mentioned the Vanthus Institute. I think I learned about them after I podcasted with Cameron because Cameron's up here in Spokane. You know, his clinic's like 20 minutes from my house. So I'll continue to go in there about every, every three months or so to do the PRP on the face and the scalp with him just to kind of push this along even more. But that Vantis company, I actually featured them in my weekly roundup because they do follicle replication. Like they insert these organic plant based pigment deposits through the dermal layer of the scalp, almost like a follicular transfer. Like in the way you could I guess, take your pubes and put them on your head. They're using plant based pigments and mimicking your own hair follicle. And it's like a, almost like a hair follicle transplant. But yeah, I'm glad you mentioned them because they did reach out and I had some people go to them and already I'm seeing some success stories come up from that. So they're called the V A N T I S. They're in Newport Beach.

Yep, they're in Newport Beach. Yeah. And their technology is called vfr, which is like, you know, the Vantis Follicular Replacement. But dude, it's amazing. I mean, I mean, I cannot sing the phrase phrases of any company more for people that are, you know, struggling because it's, it's non invasive. You get the entire procedure done in one day, you know, depending on your rate of loss. And honestly, like at that point I just wanted to have like that, you know, the George Clooney, you know, shaved head, you know, but still have hair up there. Kind of like a, you know, a five o' clock shadow on your, on your chrome dome. Right? So that's, that's what they did for me because, I mean, dude, my hair was mostly gone. I mean, I started losing my hair at 45, you know, so I, I'm 50 now. So that was at almost. I'd almost turned 49. So we did the procedure in December of 2019. And then Nick, you know, sent me this in June of last year when you rocked it for us and I started using it. You know, there is a story behind this. I'll make it really fast. I started using it for a month and my hair regrew and then we couldn't keep it on the shelves, you know, once you started promoting our products and we launched version 2 in November of last year, you know, over Black Friday. And dude, we sold close to like, I mean, obviously we sold everything out. But Ben, you don't know this. Every single body bottle that we shipped out broke. And the reason that they broke was because the peptide expanded in the neck of the bottle at our distributor. Yeah, dude, In Kansas City in December, if you remember when we had that brutal cold spell. So all of our products, we were so excited. You know, we launched version two of Waxano. You know, Nick had been brewing this up. We knew it was like five, six hours of what our first product was and then boom, that happened. So, like, it was a disaster for us in January and February. And you know, we had to get our bottles from China. We had to wait for them to come in because we had to get all new bottles, you know, so it was, it was crazy. It was a very, very, you know, you know, gutsy, crazy startup.

Trust me, I know that. The sinking feeling. I was like, when we first launched the, the Keon clean energy bar, I was so proud of it and so just, just stoked because I've been like testing and eating this thing myself for, for like the past year and I was so excited and we made this huge order and then like we found out within six weeks we had like mold in some of the boxes. And I remember one call from angelo, my, my CEO, and we literally lost like 60k just having to throw out product. And you know, eventually we fix it all. But yeah, I've, I've had that happen. And it's a sinking feeling.

It cost us 80k. It cost me a nick 80k. Me and nick were like, we're staring into the abyss, man. In February. You know, I'll let him share, but, but hey, man, you know, props to Nick. I love that guy. I mean, I, I, you know, honestly, Ben, you know, I, I can't be aligned with a better person. I mean, I, I think I always say this. I, I know for a fact that God brought all three of us here together on this podcast today. I know God brought you and Ben into my life and I mean you and Nick into my life. And so I'm very grateful. But yeah, man, I mean, recouped. You know, Nick did not steady or stop. You know, he's steady under fire. And by the way, just so you know, for everybody listening, you know, Nick had a full time, you know, auditor, big, big pharma job. You know, he works for this high end consultancy and big pharma, so he's doing this stuff at night, bro. Like literally, he Has a lab in his house. He's been brewing all this stuff up. You know, we're moving now to contract manufacturing and everything. And you know, because we're so big now or we've grown so much. But yeah, dude, it was an amazing, amazing story. And you know, here we are now here on your podcast. And you know, at the end of the day, the best part is that this product works. This is not snake oil. As you know, there's a lot of products in the hair loss industry that guys are preyed upon and they get poor to almost no results.

Like what?

Well, if you, if you live a low inflammation lifestyle and you use this product effectively and correctly, massaging it into your scalp, you will see regrowth.

What's an example of like one of those snake oil products that you're referring to? Just curious.

I mean, I would just say like, you know, without naming anybody specifically, there's so many like, products that people, you know, promote online. Like, there's so many like multi level things that I've seen. I mean, just since Nick and I do this, you know, we get emails from people all the time, like on, through Instagram and stuff through the Seer account, you know, saying, oh, well, what about this? How do you compare to this? And I'm like, I don't know anything about that. Do you have any studies? Is there any data? Because at the end of the day, there's tons of data on GHKCU and well, I shouldn't say tons of carbon 60, but there is data on regrowth. And I mean, you already had Ian Mitchell, who's a brilliant guy, you know, on your podcast, talking about it. So, you know, in truth, you know, Nick and I were the first guys to throw this together. And you know, I mean, it's not like we just threw it together. I mean, Nick is a pants biochemist. You know, he studied and did all these things and made sure that the protocol and the formulation was correct. But, but to actually discover this, I mean, I can tell you this too, Ben. When Nick and I were at the Peptides conference In August, in 2019, the last, I think one before COVID happened, and stuff like that, Nick stood up and started Talking to Seeds, Dr. William Seeds, friend of all of us, and said, hey man, what about carbon 60? And seeds looked at him like, what are you talking about? And we both look at each other, we're like, what? What do you mean you don't know what carbon 60 is? So, you know, that goes back two years ago. But I'M just, I'm certain that this product, I'm so confident because I've never seen anything do what it did to my hair. That again, if you take a low inflammation lifestyle, you live exactly how Ben Greenfield recommends. You will get results with this. And by the way, let's not, let's not forget our, the women, women get just as good a result, if not better than men do with this product. Again, it's about the application. It's not spraying it into your long hair and rubbing it into your hair like a leave in conditioner. It's about putting it into your scalp.

So that, that actually leads into kind of where I, where I wanted to go next, which was how to actually do this. Because it's one thing to kind of know we've got these two compounds that seem to be fantastic, you know, both anecdotally and then as Nick alluded to, like in terms of a lot of the studies that are out there on these for, you know, reversing hair loss or at least increasing hair growth, you know, particularly due to, due to activation of some of the mitochondrial components of hair growth. But we talked about scalp massage. I told you how I'm doing this brush, I think it's called like a Conair, but they're literally like those $10 like nylon, like Plumpy brushes you can get on Amazon. And you know, I've been brushing a lot when I use the shower, which I do a lot more because my hair is getting bigger and I put the conditioner in. I also just, I, you know, I massage the conditioner for like a good two or three minutes in the shower. But when I put the, I forget which one goes on first. Is it the C6 that goes on first or the GHK copper peptide?

Realistically, you're not going to ruin the effect by doing it either way.

When I get the Oxano formula from you guys, there's two bottles and it says put this one on first and put this one on second. Why is this?

The reason it says that is once you put an oil product onto your skin, essentially the pathways through the pores are saturated by the oil. Water and oil don't mix. So water, a water based solution is not going to be very effectively absorbed if you've already put oil on. Doesn't mean it won't be absorbed. It will be to a point, but to get the best effect. That's why we strongly recommend in this direction specifically state to utilize serum A, which is the water based GHK solution first.

Okay, All Right, that makes sense. So I put that on first, which I've been doing, and then I follow it up with the C60. But then do I have to massage right away or can you wait? Like, if I'm brushing later on or whatever, can I wait a certain period of time?

You could wait, but realistically, the sooner you do it, the more effective it's going to be because it hasn't just been sitting around. It's like anything else. You can put lotion on your arms and you could just kind of see slathered on and rubbed in later when you're done brushing your hair drying off. But obviously it's gonna work better if you just go ahead and, you know, massage it in. Get well absorbed right then and there.

Okay, got it. And are you guys, what. What do you guys use for your massages? Your fingers.

So. So, Ben, I just did a video you guys can probably link to yesterday, you know, because we talked to our contract manufacturing people yesterday morning and they were like, you guys need to do a better job of educating the consumer on the aspect that this is a scalp health product. And again, so you're all over it. You're exactly right. So when I get out of the shower, I instantly put the ghkcu. My hair is still wet. I mean, obviously I don't have as much hair as you and Nick. You guys are locked mania dudes. But the hair that I have regrown, I'm very proud of. I spray the GHKCU in and then I massage it for 20 to 25 seconds. Not a scalp massage like I would get at a barber or a hair salon or anything like that. But I'm moving it in and then, you know, I put the GH, I mean, the carbon 60 right after that. And truthfully, I like the carbon 60 as the finishing product. Now, I don't even use mousse or any product now because the grapeseed oil extract is so like, the texture is so nice, it kind of moves your hair around and almost leaves it like, almost like a pomade or like a light mousse. And in fact, Chris Gethin, you know, friend of the show, he loves our product. He talks about that's like his favorite part of the product. He's like, dude, that's my styling tool now is Serum B.

Okay? So, yeah, that is one thing I've noticed is I don't have to use as much product. Usually I use like a little bit of hair pomade if I am going to use something. But yeah, you got to Use a lot less. It seems to give a little bit of a firmness to the hair. And I went pretty minimalist on my hairbrush. But I guess they do sell because I've seen them on Amazon before, like hair brushes that will. That will vibrate. I think Sharper Image even has one that, like, comes with LED light therapy. Have you guys ever looked at any of these more? I mean, you know, what you should do is you should develop one for Oxano and give people, like, a really good hairbrush or massage scalper that comes with their product, because you know that that would be really beneficial for folks. If you guys develop one, let me know.

Yeah, so that's definitely on the drawing board where, you know, opening so many balls you can juggle at once. But that's something we do plan on releasing hopefully not too far into the future. As you said, there are actually some really neat combinations out there now that either have the soft bristles like you use, which are great for stimulating the scalp, or also have the red light LED built in so you're getting both at once.

So, Ben, let me throw something in there when you're doing it, because you're a red light freak like me. Shout outs to our boys at Jude, after you put it in the ghkcu, that's when you want to hit your scalp with the red light because that is going to increase angiogenesis. That's when you want to do three minutes into your scalp with the red light. If you can use their portable or whatever, just blast or even if you have a red light hair cap or whatever, because there's a million of them out there now. And then put the carbon 60, because again, Nick, correct me if I'm wrong, the carbon 60, then after will act as that gigantic sponge to just suck, you know, the GHK down into the, you know, the. Obviously the scalp. And I'll hit the follicular roots is, you know, a half an inch to whatever, you know, three fourths of an inch into the dermis. Am I wrong, Nick? That's correct.

Right? Yeah, that's a general description. Another reason you would do that is there actually studies showing that red light magnifies the effects of ghkcu. It's actually some fascinating work. It gets very complex. But the quick and dirty of it is that red light supercharges the vast majority effects of ghkcu.

Yeah, well, look, my joov light obviously is not pointed right at my head when I'm using it because I use one of those full Body panels. But what I do is, have you guys seen these devices that are developed for, like, Alzheimer's, dementia, focus, meditation? They're like infrared light therapy devices. The one that I use are made V light, and it's got a nasal probe, too. And it's specifically designed for neural health. But I wear that in the morning when I'm sipping my cup of coffee. And usually, like 10 minutes prior is when I'll have put on the C60 and the GHK copper peptide, like the 1, 2 Oxano combo. So I'm actually getting it directed to the scalp by those infrared lights. And then what I do is most days I go out for a walk while I'm taking all my phone calls and stuff. Stuff. So I've got one set of the Oxanas up in my bathroom cupboard, but then the other set is in the drawer that's right by my front door when you walk out the front door. So I do a few sprays in and just, like, rub it in for about 30 seconds and then head out into the sunlight, where, of course, you're getting exposure to the infrared light spectrum as well. So if I'm going for a sunlight walk, I have it in my hair then, too, and that at the same time, I'll put it on my face. And I actually did want to run this by you, because I don't recall, but isn't there some evidence that either C60 or GHK copper peptide or both can assist with a little bit of the potential damage from UVA and UVB radiation?

Yes, they both do, actually.

Yeah, that's what I thought, because I don't use a lot of sunscreen. You know, up until I got my hands on that stuff, I honestly would just, like, put a little coconut oil on my face, like, literally duck into the pantry before I head out on my sunshine walks and do a little coconut oil. But I use this stuff now instead, and it seems to work, you know, almost similar to, like, a sunscreen in terms of the uva UVB part, you know.

So with FDA stuff, you gotta be real careful not to make sunscreen claims. But GHKCU and C60 both have data demonstrating that they, through various mechanisms, either prevent the damage due to uv, not entirely, but, you know, reduce the impact of UV or directly mitigate the effects at the cellular level. UV damage, which is what a sunburn is.

Okay, okay, that makes sense. Now, when it comes to C60 and GHK copper peptide, do you guys think these are the big two? Or, you know, Nick Particularly because I know this is how you spend much of your life is researching a lot of this stuff. Are there some other peptides and bioregulators you guys think are coming down the pipeline that could serve to be like just as interesting?

Definitely. I'll go ahead and mention one that people have probably heard of. I think you've actually talked about it on one of your shows before. The common name for it is ptd. The whole cellular process of hair growth in the follicle is actually very complex. PTB is essentially targeting one specific area, essentially forcing the follicle to grow hair. I'm not characterizing that as good or bad. It's just the mechanism through which it works. Kind of taking one little step back and I won't go too far because we go in depth into this in the article you're going to be publishing and that is that fundamentally DHT is not the cause of hair loss. It's a contributory factor. It is not the foundational issue. The reason we use the formulation we do is that when you break it down from a first principles perspective and say, okay, maybe it is dht, maybe it's not, let's just start all the way at the bottom and build back up and see where it takes us. You find that DHT is a contributor. It is not the primary cause. The primary cause is ultimately lack of blood.

Fl.

So both GHK and C60 can help with the situation, but when combined appropriately, the net effect is greater than the sum of the two individual effects.

That other one that you mentioned, what did you say it's called ptd?

Yes.

Okay. And is that going to be an injectable or a topical, you think that.

Is already available as a topical. So through various other sources, companies. Here's the challenge though. We do have other formulations that we're working to release over the next six to 12 months that will include other peptides. There are multiple other peptides you can use. The key to it though is that you have to use the proper combinations that are dealing with the underlying foundational issue of blood flow, not just forcing hair growth. Because ptd, there's some great data out there on it and it's legitimate, it works. However, it hasn't been around long enough to see good long term data sets on it. But given that you're not really addressing the underlying blood flow issue, it's most likely that PTD is really functioning in a similar manner to minoxidil.

Right.

In the sense that while you're using it, you'll probably have some noticeable results when you stop using it. The underlying fault, the underlying cause of your initial hair loss is still there. So now that you took that driving factor away to essentially force the hair to grow, well, it's not there anymore. But the problem still is minoxidil. People can start losing their hair within a week. Would it be that quick with ptd? We don't know. It isn't brand new, but it also hasn't been around long enough for there to be a whole lot of real world use data on it yet.

Got it. One thing I was thinking about because I was kind of looking into this prior to our show was almost the more kind of philosophical aspect of this or I guess the societal aspect of it. You know, the idea that hair has always been this primary indication of confidence for a lot of men. Right. Like, you know, it's obviously a huge, like a billion dollar industry. Hair restoration is, you know, Cameron and I talked about this when I interviewed him and there, there was one survey I found that showed that hair was like the primary link between men's idea of where they were at in life and their youth and their attractiveness. And that men actually showed in these studies to be more relaxed and more confident when they had more hair. And it's also interesting because beards, same thing. There was another study where they found that men with facial hair were like they were considered more aggressive by other men and other women. But both men and women also found the men who had the facial hair to be more masculine. They perceived them to have a higher social status, which actually surprised me. I didn't realize that, that men who are clean shaven could be assumed to have a lower societal status than men with beards. But it's interesting, it's almost like this double whammy of facial hair. And a full set of hair allows a man's masculine appeal and confidence to kind of go through the roof. And so I don't know how narcissistic I'm slowly going to become as my own hair grows out. My beard gets longer and longer. But it's interesting like how much there is that goes on psychologically here.

Yeah, I have a goatee, I have facial hair. And honestly you feel different when you have more hair. I keep my hair nothing like yours, but for a long time I kept my hair very short, relatively cropped. There's a difference. I'm not the psychologist. I'm not going to try to prattle on about the mechanisms and the reasons. But yeah, for whatever the reason is I'm sure there's some great psychologists out there that can, you know, give a whole lecture on it. It's, it's legit, you know, whether we like it or not, unfortunately.

Yeah. And in terms of, you know, conjunctive treatments, you mentioned Vanthus and this kind of like plant based follicular retransplant type of protocol. Jay and then I did the PRP treatment with Cameron up here, which was the microneedling with the prp. We talked about infrared light as being another thing. You know, massage, low inflammation, lifestyle. Anything else you guys kind of keep in your back pocket that you do, along with the use of the, these two Oxano products that you think flies under the radar or something, you've also found to work really well.

So the number one thing that people will be able to do, in addition to all the things that you've already covered, and obviously all of this stuff is in our article or the article that you're going to be publishing, which from your team is going to be two parts, which is amazing. Again, we're very grateful for that. It's a very in depth article.

Yeah, it's really.

So one thing, let me just, you know, that's in the article that I'll just mention and then, you know, what I want to get into is that people definitely should look into drinking deuterium depleted water, right? I mean, you're already a water and wellness guy and I know you already know the profound benefits of, you know, enhancing mitochondrial health. But there's no question that when you start looking into the research of what deuterium depleted water does, I mean, it will enhance, you know, mitochondrial, you know, neogenesis in the scalp. I mean, it's, you know, obviously all through the body, but, you know, for people that aren't familiar with deuterium depleted water, you know, there's a lot of stuff that you can find online. You know, my, my copywriter and I wrote an article about a month ago on my side. I know, Ben, you've covered it, but that would be like one other thing that we didn't cover. You already mentioned derma rolling. It's kind of weird with derma rolling, though, because it's an invasive procedure and so you have to kind of be careful, like when you're, you know, pumping, functioning, you know, even if it's just a tiny level of the top part of the scalp, it's considered clinical, so. But derma rolling would be huge. You know, the last thing that I really wanted to get into is that what Nick And I are developing, which I think is going to be here a lot sooner than we thought it would be, is going to be what we wanted to classify as a leave in conditioner, but it's actually going to be a scalp treatment. So what this will be then is people will take a shower at night. A hope they take a shower at night, you know, wash their hair, you know, wash everything out. And then as they're, you know, drying whatever their, you know, nighttime ritual is before they go to bed, you know, female or male, they'll apply this serum into their scalp and again, as you said, you know, massage it into the scalp. Now you're, you're going to want your hair wet so that you're going to get, you know, better, more even distribution into the scalp. And you know, obviously you'll massage it in and stuff like that. But this product will be. Nick and I have already thought about what we're going to call it. It's going to be Oxano Evening. So Oxano that you're taking now will be Oxano Day and then this product will be Oxano Evening. So that's coming, I would say. Nick, what do you think? We'll have that before year end. Correct?

That's our goal is probably early fourth quarter.

Okay.

So, Ben, this product will dramatically improve regrowth because people will be asleep. They're not going to be able to do anything, you know, to inflame themselves, you know, unless they don't sleep at all. Right. The penetration and the absorption, the absorption in the scalp, the efficacy will be much greater because they'll be sleeping and they'll also, it'll be, you know, when it's, when it's, when it's applied to the scalp, it'll apply, it'll actually absorb better.

Nice. I dig that. I actually, you know, I'd seen some of those studies on deuterium depleted water and kind of like the, the coat, like, like the, the hair coat in rodent models actually improving in terms of quality. And of course, arguably I think that a lot of people who are avoiding starches, eating organic produce, getting really good spring water, etcetera, are probably maintaining relatively low levels of deuterium without having to buy super duper expensive, fancy bottled deuterium depleted water. But it's interesting how that seems to kind of play into the equation as well. That's funny because when I interviewed Ian Mitchell, who we were talking about earlier, those were two of the things we talked about a lot were C60 and determined depleted water. So, so a lot of this stuff seems to stack right? Infrared light and really good water and blood flow and scalp massage and then topical peptides like this. I think the equation seems to be confusing to a lot of people, but when you really step back and look at it, it's pretty simple. Especially when you're combining that with low intake of vegetable oils, low inflammation, good sleep and the avoidance, as you explained, Jay, of things that might deleteriously influence DHT or hormonal balance, thus leading to long term androgenic alopecia. So it's one of those things that I'm super kind of happy to be able to have delved into and studied over the past few months and I'm just learning so much from guys like you along the way. It's super fun. And then the Oxano stuff for those of you listening in. I'll link to everything we talk about in the show notes if you go to BenGreenfulFitness.com hair growth. But the Oxano, you guys are giving all of my listeners a discount. I know if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com acir it's a company that runs Oxano A S E I R. There's a code called BEN15 that gets you a 15 discount on that. And I'll put that in the show notes as well. And then yeah, when you guys come out with the laser light vibrating massage brush with maybe double up and have it have a dildo handle or something on it and we can just, just kill a lot of birds with one stone. Just ship that up and we'll develop the world's ultimate biohacks brush. And I think it'll sell like hotcakes.

You will be our first call, if.

You don't mind me taking one slight step back to kind of put a, we talked about a lot of things. Put a quick bow around everything for everybody so, you know, not all lost in the woods. Is that fundamentally what it boils down to? DHT is a contributing factor. It's not the root cause of hair loss. What is? At the end of the day, if you dig through all the data and the research, I'm going to say some rock solid research going back 10, 15, 20 years and longer that show that hair loss is fundamentally an inflammation and blood flow issue. You would ask Jay the question of what other sorts of products are out there that might be more in the snake oil category. That's actually easy without even having to name names. Realistically, anything that's targeting dht, for example, there's a Lot of over the counter herbal compounds that claim to target dht. Certain herbs and herbal extracts do tend to inhibit it and can be topically available. However, now that people understand that's not the root cause, you're gonna run into the same issue as minoxidil. Even if you slather enough on your head where you got a positive effect, the second you stop it, you're gonna lose that positive effect and probably rebound in a negative way.

And almost anyone who's used. Well said, Nick. Anyone who's used minoxidil, especially at a prescription grade, has experienced that. I mean, I've talked to hundreds of guys. You know, the people that have reached out to Nick and I since we launched Oxano, you know, are like, well, what if I do this and this, this combined with doxano? We always tell them, well, like, you know, would you get potentially more regrowth if you were using a prescription grade of, you know, minoxidil with, you know, a seer at night, you know, with Oxano at night? Possibly. But again, why would you even want to use Minoxidil at this point now, when you understand the mechanism of hair loss, knowing that minoxidil, when you stop using it, has a rebound effect of, of losing your hair loss of the DHT inhibition attached to the follicles, and then boom, the follicles fall dormant and die and you lose them.

Well, I mean, I would say that if folks were to combine listening to this podcast with probably the one I did with Cameron Chestnut and maybe that one that I did with Ian Mitchell or Ian, however he pronounces his name, I always forget. Anyways, though, I'll link to all those in the show notes@bengreenfulfitness.com hair growth because I think, I think if you were to just go through all those, you'd pretty much cut through all the crap and know everything you need to know about how to approach this from an arguably more natural standpoint. And then I'll link to your guys Oxano product as well, because both me and my wife have been loving it. And granted, I know people will ask this because my company Kion, we have a skin serum and I still use that skin serum as well. It's just a bunch of different essential oils. But yeah, I'm doing the Oxano in the morning and then my red light therapy and my V light and then the Axon if I'm going out for a walk in the sunshine. So sometimes I'm hitting it twice a day. I do the Kion serum before I go to bed at night. Once you guys finish that conditioner, I'll start putting that in before I go to bed at night. And for me, it's like if it takes me two to five minutes to go out of my way to just slap this stuff on, do a quick hairbrush, and walk away, that's not excess time spent narcissistically trying to improve my, know, figure or my face. It's just. It's quick. It's in and out. It works. And, man, like, I dig this stuff. So thanks for. Thanks for introducing it to me, guys. And I'll. I'll blame you when I start to look like. What's his name? Is it Thor? The superhero with the long hair and the beard? I might have to. I might have to pick up a few heavier weights too.

Let me just throw this out to everybody. And again, man, we're so grateful. You know, you've helped our company so much, and we've been gotten so many of your customers who have sent us, you know, amazing, glowing testimonials about. Because we didn't even talk about the serum and cream. I mean, you obviously did, but the products that are coming from us are Brow, which is going to be a brow and eyelash serum. This is right around the corner, Oxano Lip, which will be like a moisturizing and plumping product for the lips, which will blow out the doors for women. And then Oxano Beard for beards. And so that'll be a separate product. And then Oxano Ageless, which you will. Will be sending you and your wife that product very, very soon, which, you know, I don't want to, like, make claims, but I'll just make claims on Ben Greenfield's podcast. It will be as strong as Botox without the neurotoxicity of Botox.

That's pretty cool. I'll be waiting so that I can stop getting all the brow. All the brow treatments that I currently get. Yeah, because right now I just shave my brows and paint new ones on. So that'll be. Be great when you send me that. All right, guys, well, we're running out of time, but folks, BenGreenfieldFitness.com hair growth is where you can check this stuff out again. If you wind up on the oxana website, code BEN15 will help you out over there. And Jay, Nick, thanks for spending all the time in the Batman labs and helping us all become hairier fellas.

Hey, Ben, thank you for the opportunity. It's been amazing.

Awesome, awesome, guys. All right. Well, I'm Ben Greenfield along with my friend Jay Campbell and my new friend Nick Andrews signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have an amazing week everybody. Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the show notes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful Ben Recommends page which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep digestion, fat loss, performance and plenty more. Please also know that all the links, all the promo codes that I mentioned during this and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the show notes. Use the promo codes that I generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.