Unlocking The Psyche Of Competition With An MMA Fighter, Father & Husband.

Welcome to the BenGreenfieldFitness.com podcast. We provide you with free exercise, nutrition, weight loss, triathlon and wellness advice from the top fitness experts in the nation. So whether you're an Ironman triathlete or you're just trying to shed a few pounds, get ready for non run of the mill, cutting edge content from BenGreenfieldFitness.com.

Foreign. Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield here. And you may have noticed an article that appeared@BenGreenfieldFitness.com a few weeks ago and it was called Endurance Sports. MMA and Extreme Exercise, Are they Worth the Risks? And this was a little bit of a controversial article that was written by my guest on today's podcast. He's an author, he's a fighter, he's a family man. His name is Mark Tullius and he describes himself like this on his site. He says, I'm a father and a husband, a brother and a son. I'm an Ivy League grad who worked in a warehouse, an MMA fighter with too many defeats. I'm the bouncer, the bodyguard, the drunk guy in the fight, the jailer and the jailed, the guilty and the innocent. And he goes on to describe himself in a little bit more detail and I'll put his full description on the show notes for this episode over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com but today we're gonna take a little bit of a deep dive with Mark into everything from unlocking the psyche of competitive sports. We're gonna talk about head injuries and other injuries and how those relate to testosterone and testosterone replacement therapy in sports. We'll talk a little bit about performance enhancing drugs and MMA and other sports. We'll talk about training your brain, training your body, some of the best training programs to turn yourself into an absolute beast and much more. So, Mark, thanks for coming on the call today.

Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Well, Mark, I'm going to put a link in the show notes so that people can go check out all of your books because you actually have written quite a few books and if we have time, want to talk to you a little bit about your experience as an author. But one of your better known books and one of the ones that you kind of delve into in that article that you wrote for BenGreenfieldFitness.com was this book called Unlocking the Cage. What's your background? What led you to write that book?

Yeah, and I'm actually working on that one right now. I'm hoping to have it out by the end of the year and also sociological study to go with it. But when I was fighting back in, it was a, it was a year or two after I graduated from college. Didn't know what I was going to do, but I found myself doing underground fights in la, you know, and I was, I was never a violent guy. I was never fighting at all. I was always the guy that broke up fights.

What's, what's an underground fight for people.

Who don't know, Back then it wasn't really legal, or it might have been borderline legal. So we, There would be flyers passed out and you would find out that there was gonna be a fight at some warehouse on a Sunday down in la. And you'd go, it'd be a, you know, it'd be a warehouse where they just emptied everything out and they put a ring up and people go up, you know, just, just do it. I think my first fight was in a nightclub in, in San Pedro. It was just this little Mexican nightclub that they just emptied it out. They put a ring up in the cage in the middle of it, and they just matched guys up as, as they walked in, like, oh, you guys look the right size and you just.

Show up and fight.

Yeah, yeah, you know.

And did you, did you have experience as a fighter? Like, did you learn formally how to fight? Or, like, was your background in martial arts?

No, and that's what was kind of ridiculous. And that's what I never really understood, like, why I was doing it, because I think after high school, like, my parents would never let me do martial arts, so I didn't do martial arts. They were against violence, they were against all that. I played high school football and I was pretty good. And I, I was, I was one of the stronger athletes. I was really into powerlifting and I did some of the powerlifting competitions. But then before I went to Brown, I was, I got into a little bit of kickboxing, just training, no competition. I, I played football at Brown after I graduated, you know, I wasn't good enough to go to the pros. I had some injuries. And then I just, I discovered jiu jitsu and the martial arts again when I was doing bodyguard work. And I realized that my instructor, he was great, you know, he had black belts and all these different disciplines. But when we took it to the ground and just because of my size and my strength, you know, I was, I was probably about 250 at the time and a strong guy, I was able to, you know, in 20 seconds, I was able to beat him. And I realized that there was something there. I was like, okay, maybe I could use my eyes and strength, you know, in this. And I wanted to be. I wanted to be competitive. I think I already missed that part of it.

Yeah. Yeah. So you just basically naturally discovered you were good at this stuff and started showing up these underground fights.

Yeah, yeah. And I. You know, and if I had. If I could do it all over, I would have actually started training. I mean, I didn't tell my trainers that I was going to the. The fight. I would. I didn't tell friends. I think I. For my first fight, I told one person, and I just wanted to try it. And. And a big part of it, I believe, was probably that I was scared. You know, it was like, this was something. I didn't know how it was going to turn out, but I just wanted to do it. But then after I was doing for a couple times and I was training a little bit more then. Then I. That really got me thinking. I was like, why are all these people doing it, you know, not just myself? I didn't. I don't think I. At the time, I thought there was anything wrong with me, but I was wondering why, you know, all these people were doing this and why were the fans interested? And I was just really fascinated by the entire thing. You know, I had studied sociology at Brown, and, you know, I thought. At the time, I thought about doing a survey and surveying the fans, surveying the fighters, and. But I just didn't do anything with it. And so it wasn't until after. Let's see. I think I had. I. I hadn't been fighting for about eight years. My last fight was in 2004, and I had a. My daughter was three years old at the time, and, you know, she's putting me in triangles, and she likes to punch me and kick me. And I was starting. I. I really wondered. I was like, wow, is this good for her? You know, is she going to go the same path? You know, down the same path I did? Is, you know, is it something genetic or is it something that I'm passing on to her? Is it, you know, is by exposing her to these moves, am I going to increase the likelihood that she's going to fight? And that was actually one of the drives that got me started on the project, because, to tell you the truth, I wasn't into MMA at all. I wasn't watching it. I actually. I feel like I had a shift with my daughter, and I probably became more peaceful, more relaxed, and like, sometimes watching the.

You know, they say that happens when you have little girls. Your testosterone plummets.

Yeah. Yeah.

I've got two boys, actually. They say that. That when. When you become a father period, or when you get married, actually, your testosterone begins to drop. And then when you have kids, it drops even more. And apparently when you have girls, it drops even more compared to boys. So you're pretty much screwed, man.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm surrounded by women. That doesn't help is like, yeah, so. So that's why I started it. And it was tough because, you know, I hadn't been physical at all. I. I was in terrible, terrible shape. And that's one reason why I wanted to start the project, because I was like, okay, I'm either gonna go and just totally embarrass myself or I can start getting in shape. And, you know, this is how I'm gonna. And that's what I would do before it's like, okay, I'm gonna take a fight, so I'll train really hard. You know, it's like I needed that. I always needed some kind of motivation. I was like, okay, I'm gonna sign up for a race, and then I'll start training to get ready for it.

Yeah, terrible. I'm exactly the same way. I have to be signed up for something or else I won't go train. I need that motivation that I'm going to be embarrassed or outside. I won't train. So you started down the road of writing this book, unlocking the cage, so that you could basically delve into the psyche of why people fight and why they like to go watch fights.

Yeah. I ended up throwing away the part about the Watching the fights. I left that alone because I realized now fighting is just so huge. So what I'm strictly. What I'm. What I'm focused on now is, you know, why these people are fighting, you know, And I haven't done the study yet. I mean, because I'll have. I'll have a survey portion of the study, which I haven't done yet, but I've interviewed close to 400 fighters already, and trying to go pretty deep with them. Some of them, you know, we don't have a lot of time, and so we might not go that deep, but other ones, you know, we're looking at everything. I start from the youngest age and try to see, you know, when was the first time they saw violence? When was the first time, you know, what was their education like? What, were they bullied? Were they the bully? You know, all These different factors and then really trying to get at, you know, why are they doing it? And so many of them don't know. I think it's really difficult to know why you're doing something while you're doing it. If there's been a length of time where you haven't done it and maybe you miss it might be a little bit easier. But that's one reason why I also talk to coaches all the time, because I think coaches know fighters better than the fighters know themselves, you know, and friends and parents and. So, yeah, trying to really see, you know, why are they doing it? Are they. Are they just a wrestler that needs competition? And they're just, you know, strictly looking at this as a sport and, you know, and comparing the guys that are seeing it now. There's young kids that see it on TV now. They're like, oh, man, I'm gonna be Jon Jones. I'm gonna make money. I'm gonna be sponsored by Nike. I'm gonna have this fame. You know, compare that to the guys like myself and other people that just like, man, we don't care. I was fighting for, like, 50 bucks or 100 bucks or 200 bucks and knowing that there wasn't going to be this huge payday, but just kind of wanting to go in there and do it.

So, you know, like, when you say wanting to go in there and do it, do you say that because you feel like you were just hardwired to. To want to. To fight somebody or hardwired to want to compete? I mean, do you think that, like, you know, a few thousand years ago, you would have been, like, the warrior who just thrived mentally and physically on. On being in battle, like. Like satisfying that bloodthirst?

I think so, you know. Well, it's so hard to know because, I mean, this is really reminded me of so much stuff that I forgot about. And even, like, my childhood was, like, I was pretty into. Pretty much into. Well, I was really into sports at a very young age, but I was also into military in violence and everything else. And, you know, I was always killing people in my. You know, while I was playing cowboys or Indians or army men or whatever else. And, you know, I. So it's hard to say, you know, am I hardwired that way or was I, you know, just brought up that way or created or, you know, was it the environment? But I do think, you know, and maybe if it wasn't fighting, it could have been something else, because that's what I've discovered now because I went so far, you know, I spent about two years just going to all these gyms, been to over 100 gyms. And then one of my last sparring sessions, my buddy warned me about. He's like, hey, man. He's like, maybe you should write about brain damage. I was like, well, why would I write about brain damage? He's like, well, you're sparring with guys half your age, and, you know you're getting hit. And so I made the switch, and we'll go into that more later. But. So I made the switch to strictly jiu jitsu for the last two or three months, and I've realized I was like, that is enough for me. It's like that competition. And, you know, whether it's. Whether it's just exerting myself physically, whether it's the competition, whether it's the camaraderie, you know, there's all these factors. I'm not sure what they are, but I do know that that has replaced my. The newfound urge to fight, which I. You know, I didn't have it for eight years. I got back into it. It slowly came back to where it's like, man, I was like, I want to spar. I even want to fight at 41. Which is ridiculous. Yeah. And. But it's been replaced now by jiu jitsu. And, you know, which is nice, because now I don't think it hit him the head. But it's going to be very interesting because next week, I'm starting back into the MMA again. I'm going up to Northern California, and it'll be very interesting to see whether or not, you know, when I put on the gloves, am I gonna have that fighting urge, you know, come back again?

So, yeah, well, you know, you know what I think? I think just, you know, I've competed in triathlon and marathon and endurance sports for a long time, and, you know, for the past decade, I've been doing Ironman, and before that I was in bodybuilding, and, you know, played collegiate tennis and dabbled in water polo and played middle for the volleyball team and have just kind of experimented with a lot of these sports, I think. And I want to hear what you think about this, too. The people fall into. Into one of four different categories when they're competing. I think there's those people who thrive on competition who are, like, bloodthirsty. Like, that's the way they're hardwired. Like, they need to go out and fight. And these would have been the people who. Who would go out into battle, you know, Thousands of years ago, or who are genetically like warriors, right? So we have those people and they just need to go and battle. And then I think you have a second group of people who use fighting, who use competition, who use exercise as a means of getting away from their, their day job. Like, these are the people who, who, like, thrive on the runner's high, who, like, need to. Need to get out there and do it as a meditation, as a getaway, as like a way to unplug. And I tend to see that a lot in endurance sports especially. And, you know, I don't know if, if MMA is a form of unplugging for people, but I seem to run into that quite a bit too. People who just want to be able to step away from the world, world and kind of delve into their own special place. You know, I guess that would be similar to, like, you know, fight club, for example. And then I think there's, there's two other subsets of people. There's the people who compete because they, they, they got sucked into it thinking it would be a good way to get a better body to, like, lose fat. You know, you tend to see a lot of, like, women especially, who get into exercise or extreme exercise because they, they want to get a better body and because they think that's, that's the way to do it. And then finally, I think there are people who are basically just like, addicted to exercise, right? They, they don't even exercise because they, because they necessarily think it's healthy or for the competition. They just exercise because they, they thrive on that dopamine release or they're addicted to the endorphins. And then I think there's like a third category of folks who basically just. They compete because they think it's going to help them to lose weight or they got pulled into sports as, like, a way to lose fat or to get a better body. And I think you see this a lot of times with women who you see exercising all the time. And it's not necessarily because they're, they're bloodthirsty or they're using it for meditation. It's just like, they just do it because they think that's the way for them to get a better body. And then the last group of people, I think, are the people who are just addicted to exercise. Like, maybe they got started off because they were interested in competition or interested in getting a better body or interested in the meditation and being able to step away. And eventually they just got to the point where they were Addicted to exercise because of the endorphins or the dopamine or the cannabinoids or all the things that get released when you exercise. And now that's just the way that they. That they get their fix. Like, rather than having sex or eating good food or, you know, having a hobby like music, like, exercise is the one thing. So it seems to me like there's a lot of different reasons that people get into this stuff, but those are kind of like the four categories of people that, That I seem to run into.

Yeah, and I would say you. You totally nailed it because. And those are the people that I see in the gym. You know, the, the first group, definitely the fighters, but all the people that are in there just to train. I mean, that, that, that pretty much sums it up. And especially also with jiu jitsu, there's so many people that might just go in to start losing weight, and then it just turns into something else. And. But yeah, I think, I think you nailed it with the, with those four.

Did you ever. Did you ever get serious head damage when you were competing?

Yeah, I did, you know, but at the time I was denying it. And this is. I was. Well, I had several concussions playing football. I had a couple in high school, a couple. I played one year of junior college, and then also a couple at Brown. So, I mean, I already had probably like at least five or six serious, you know, good concussions before I even got into fighting. I was trying the cage, fighting out for a while. I got talked into, man, I was so stupid. I agreed to do the main event for bare knuckle boxing fight in Alabama. And so it was going to be, you know, no gloves, no headgear, just a mouthpiece, thank God. The, the fight fell through. The promoters couldn't get insurance for the fighters, but that got me started in boxing. And then while I. When I went to boxing, I moved to Vegas. I was a big white guy, you know, no experience, just thrown in there. And I began slurring my speech in the word order. You know, I'd be saying, you know, I'd be saying my sentence and my, My words be flipped around. I knew what I was trying to say, but I was reversing the words. And that was scary because I don't know, I don't know. You know, I don't know if maybe I was just susceptible. I don't know if it's because I already had these other concussions or what, but it was pretty noticeable. And, you know, that, that bothered me. And so My last, I stopped boxing, I wasn't going to be any good at. I wasn't a good boxer at all. And so I jumped back into the cage stuff and I felt fine. And, you know, and after that I didn't notice anything. I had a really bad concussion. My last fight I lost, it was my first time cutting weight. I lost 40 to 45 pounds in one month. And I had nothing going into this fight. And I remember seeing a punch coming. The next thing I know, I'm in the locker room in the middle of a sentence and everyone is looking at me, just very scared. And my coach was like, we're about to take you to the hospital. And I guess after I got hit by that punch, I still fought for a couple more minutes. I never lost consciousness. I walked into the back, but then while I was in the back, I asked the same sentence about six times. I just kept saying, what happened? What happened? And, and after that I was like, I, I went and had a CAT scan and I said, okay, I'm not, I'm not gonna fight anymore. Yeah, you know, it just wasn't worth it. And, and part of my, you know, part of my thing too was even that. I don't know if that was the real reason why I stopped fighting because I was just reckless and I, I really didn't care about myself or my health or, or anything that really happened to me. But I think I just, at that point I also knew I was like, okay, I'm not going to make it as a fighter. And, you know, it'd probably be good to hold on to most of my brain cells.

So do you find that in MMA or do you find this with yourself, that there was a link between you getting hit in the head and libido or sexual performance? Because the reason that I asked that is, you know, they found all these, you know, this evidence that repetitive head injury results in damage to the pituitary gland. And then there's this whole link between the pituitary gland and pituitary gland dysfunction and hypogonadism and growth hormone deficiencies and this drop in testosterone. And I mean, you can certainly get that same, you know, in both men and women, that hypogonadism or that drop in testosterone from like over training or not eating enough food or you're not getting enough fat soluble vitamins in. But it appears you can also get that from head damage. Do you think that low testosterone is caused by some of this head damage that's occurring, or did you find that yourself?

It's hard to say at the time, because when I was fighting, I wasn't doing anything right. I wasn't eating right. I didn't. A lot of it wasn't really known, and you had to really do your research. But so it might have been a lot of things. I. I do know that it was. I think it probably was a pretty low sex drive, especially while I was fighting and doing all that. And again, it might have been over training or other things. And I haven't talked to too many guys about that. But I know before I started this, before I started the project, I did go to a doctor, though, because, man, I was. I was really tired. I just wasn't feeling like. I kept telling myself, I was like, okay, I'm gonna start exercising. I'm gonna start going to the gym. And I just wouldn't do it. And that wasn't like me. So I went to the doctor, I said, hey, I like my, you know, testosterone tested, because if it is low, I was going to consider doing replacement therapy. You know, I had a couple friends that do it, and they're like, man, you'll feel like a new person. You know, why wouldn't you do this? And so I went. I had it. I had it tested, and then the results came back, and the doctor was like, no, you're just lazy. And so, yeah, essentially, it might have been on the low end. You know, the score might have been on the low end.

Well, well, well, Physicians look for you to be for. For hypogonadism. They're looking for, like, clinical hypogonadism. There are a ton of guys who have low libido. Men, men and women who have hormonal issues. But a lot of times when docs test for anything from progesterone to testosterone, they're looking for the stuff that would. That would be so low that it puts you at risk of something like heart disease or extreme levels of basically lack of motivation and low libido. But they're not necessarily looking at values that are going to lead to maybe you just having more motivation to exercise, for example. So I think it's a. It kind of depends on the scale that you're looking at now.

What are your thoughts on just for, like, the average. The average male that's getting a little bit older and maybe doesn't have that motivation. What are your thoughts on testosterone placement?

Well, generally, if you look at what medical recommendations are for what it takes to be in about the top 10th percentile for different age groups for about the 30 to 40 year old male age group, for example, you're looking at wanting total testosterone values that are somewhere between about 500 to 700. And that's the range that I tell most guys to shoot for, somewhere between 500 and 700. And in most cases, if you're up around that range and you have high levels of free testosterone, meaning that that total testosterone isn't all bound up to sex hormone binding globulin, which usually happens when you have really high cortisol or if you're over training or you're not eating enough calories. Usually that total testosterone value of somewhere between 500 and 700 is pretty good for most guys. That's what I recommend shooting for. And a doctor will see 300 for example, and they'll tell you you're fine. If you're 30 to 40 or in any other age category for that matter, 300 is just fine. And I've seen some people, they'll show me their lab results, their PDF, and they won't even be flagged for being low in testosterone. And they'll be down around like the two hundreds for their total testosterone. And that's just, in most cases, it's simply not enough to result in enough libido, enough drive, enough motivation, any of those factors. So it's kind of an issue. But you mentioned testosterone replacement therapy. Isn't that like the Nevada State Athletic Commission just banned trt, right, for, for, for mma?

Yeah, they, they did just ban that.

And what do you think about that?

You know what, I, I think it's, I think it's the right call, you know, because I think, I think it just could be so abused and it, it is a form of cheating. And this is coming from like, I, I used testosterone in the past when it wasn't legal and I tried it and you know, I, I don't know, I just think if, if your testosterone is that low and you can't get it up in other ways, then maybe it's, you should just not be fighting. And, and I read a really good article by a doctor who's saying, well, you know, a lot of guys are saying, well, my testosterone is low because of all the brain damage that I've taken from fighting, and that's why it's low. So I need to raise it back up. It's like, well, that's the case then you should not be fighting if you have this brain damage. So, I mean, it's a hard one.

But yeah, it seems like kind of a catch 22 because, I mean, you're competing in a sport where you're getting hit in the head and evidence has shown that, you know, when your pituitary gland is damaged, you're not going to produce enough testosterone. But then they go and ban testosterone replacement therapy in these folks. And so, yeah, it does seem like. Like kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of scenario.

Yeah, yeah, because, I mean, it's just such. It's such an advantage and just like, looking at Vitor, like, just, I mean, what an incredible athlete. But, I mean, I don't know, having that extra boost, having that advantage over someone who's not using it. And then what.

What happened with Vitor for people.

He. He's just. I'm not sure what his age, but he. He was one of the fighters that was on trt, an older fighter who just. I mean, he looks incredible and he was just knocking guys out left and right and. But then they ban it and now he's not, you know, he's not fighting. I'm not sure what he's going to do now, but, you know, that is definitely one of the reasons why he's doing so well. And then especially what they'll do to a fighter mentally if they have been using the TRT and all of a sudden they have to stop. You know, I know a lot of weight lifters and stuff that have, you know, they'll be cycling and then they'll go off of a cycle and, man, they're just a completely different person. And in fighting, I couldn't imagine having the increased levels of testosterone and then having to try to fight without it and trying to train without it? I mean, that would be. That would be very hard mentally, I think.

Now, what about the use of things that could potentially reverse head damage or decrease, like the lack of blood flow and all the hypoperfusion that happens on the brain level and potentially using the, like, you know, helping fighters out by giving them that knowledge rather than putting them on testosterone replacement therapy so they could almost keep fighting, but at least reverse or slow down some of that brain damage? I mean, have you. Have you seen the use of like, nutraceuticals and stuff like that kind of going up in the MMA as testosterone replacement therapy has decreased or become illegal?

I haven't seen a lot of it, but that's only because a lot of my focus is on younger guys and they. These guys just don't have the money. You know, out of the 400 fighters I've interviewed, I think, like, maybe 60 are in the UFC, but even though 60, you know, not that maybe half of them are making a decent money and taking, like, the nutrients that they shouldn't and. And being taken care of that way. But, yeah, no, that. I think. I think that's incredibly important for them to be getting that and for that to be available.

And if, you know, well, what'd you do? Like, you had head damage? Did you start to do things to help, I guess, like rebuild your brain or help you heal from head damage?

Well, I didn't realize that at the time. I just completely stopped. I think the time off helped me. But since I. When I wrote this article, when my friend told me that, hey, maybe you should stop sparring, and I realized he was right. I started looking at brain damage. It kind of scared me because I was like, oh, man. I was like, not only have I had brain damage, you know, I definitely had brain damage from boxing and infant fighting. I had all these concussions. And it may just be a matter of time before, you know, dementia sets in. But luckily, one thing that happened with me, I just started doing Lumosity, which is brain training. Joe, I listen to his podcast all the time. He recommended it. So I just tried it, and I got hooked. And I. I've been feeling incredible. And then I was just reading up on. I read the science on it afterwards, and it was talking about how. How much it can stop or prevent dementia, you know, delay dementia and Alzheimer's. And, you know, I. I think that's something that all fighters should be doing, some kind of mental stimulation. Do you.

Do you just, like, have Lumosity on your phone and play it every day?

I. I did just download to my phone, but, yeah, I use it on my desktop. And this again, it's. You know, I sound like such a nerd, like, saying it, but, like, I've even had to limit myself because not only am I feeling so much sharper, you know, it definitely feels like a fog's been lifted, but it's competition because you get to see where you compete against all these other people. You know, anyone else who's playing, you can check yourself against your age range or younger kids or whatever else. I was like, man, it's like, now I'm at the point where I'm such a perfectionist. I'm trying to get to 99.9%. That's my goal right now. So I've had a limit.

Have you ever used. I've used Lumosity, but the other one I have on my phone that I play around with when I'm on the airplane or anywhere else, where I want to do brain training is N back. And I've actually found n back training to spin the dials in my brain way more in terms of making me furrow my brow and work harder on working memory, even compared to Lumosity. Have you done much with n back training?

No. No. I'm gonna. I'm gonna definitely check that out, though.

It's really difficult. Like, it'll throw an equation at you or a number or a pattern, and then you have to remember that number or pattern or equation as it flips a series of additional equations and numbers and patterns at you. And then it'll say like three times ago, what was the answer to the equation? So you might get like four plus one and then it'll flash. So this would be an example, like, N minus 2 training. So it'll say 4 plus 1 and then it'll flash 5 plus 2, 8 plus 8. And then it'll say, what was the answer to the equation that appeared two ago? And so you got to say that and then. Go on. And you can get to the point. They've done studies in kids and even use this in elementary schools and found that it vastly improves IQ. And there's kids that are getting up to, like, 10 and back, meaning they'll see a pattern, like, appear on a grid and then it'll flash 10 other patterns at them, and then they have to say where that pattern appeared on the Grid 10 episodes ago. Super cool stuff, though, for kind of improving mental performance. If you like Lumosity. Because I have Lumosity on my phone and I have N back on my phone. Like, those are the two brain training apps that I have on my phone. And I love Lumosity, but NBC is harder. It's more difficult now.

I'll definitely check that out.

So what about Nutraceuticals? Have you used. Have you used anything like that for head damage?

The only thing I've used, I just got on it and I'm using their total primary care, and I'm not even completely sure what is in it.

Is that like Alpha Brain?

Yeah, yeah. It includes Alpha Brain in. And I. I had used that once before and. And that might be part of why I've been feeling so good. It's been a combination of that and the brain training. But I. Yeah, I don't know the science behind it, you know, and that I've gotten. I don't know if. I guess I shouldn't say I'm lazy. I Mean, I'm a stay at home dad and I'm also doing all my fiction and stuff like that. I just haven't had time to.

Well, that has like, That's Huperzine in it, right? The Alpha brain?

Yeah, yeah, I believe so. But yeah, I, I like it. I mean, I like the way I'm feeling. And as far as, you know, not only mentally just day to day stuff, but on the mat in jiu jitsu, like, I'm feeling sharper. And then with my writing, with my fiction, like creativeness, creativity is way better.

That's actually, that's really interesting. I'm actually looking at the, at the Alpha Brain label right now. It's got Vimposotine in it. I'm seeing if it has Huperzine. I thought this. Yeah, it has Huperzine in it too. There was a big study that they ran on retired NFL players who had a bunch of brain damage and cognitive impairment. And they actually had these guys take supplements for six months. And they saw a increase in perfusion in the areas of the brain that actually were damaged. And I know that two of the things they had them on were actually Vinpocetine and Huperzine, which are in this stuff, this Alpha brain. And they also had fish oil. And I know they had like a ginkgo biloba. There were some other things in there too. But, you know, it is kind of interesting that you can actually, I mean, you can make yourself smarter by increasing blood flow with some of this stuff, but you can actually reverse brain damage. And in these NFL players, they're using what's called a spec scan to show perfusion in areas through the brain. And they actually had a reversal of head damage just from these type of nutrients.

That's awesome. That's very. Yeah, that's encouraging.

That's interesting. So you've used that stuff, used the lumosity for brain training. What about injuries? Have you had injuries that go above and beyond just head injuries that have stemmed from participation in MMA or in football?

Yeah, tons of my back has been destroyed. Just the. From high school football. I had a really bad back injury. And since that back injury, it's plagued me throughout. I mean, I still have problems with it. One way, the best way I've dealt with it is yoga. I mean, I swear by chiropractic. My brother's a chiropractor and that's helped me out a ton. I wouldn't have been able to do this project if it wasn't for chiropractic and massage. And acupuncture. Acupuncture. But then yoga also. I got turned on to that and that has just done wonders for me. Whether it's, you know, strengthening the core or I'm just more flexible.

Are you doing like, like half a yoga or a specific kind of yoga?

I started on, I knew I needed a program and I wasn't about to do it in public because I still was trying to get over that whole deal and being embarrassed starting something new, you know, So I, I do it downstairs. I, I got the ultimate yogi, which is a 108 day program. And so one day is flexibility, one day is, you know, strength. And I, I love the way he has it set up. And I, I did 60 days in a row before I had a back injury from some MMA stuff and. But now I just do it every. Right now I'm training three days a week in Jiu jitsu and I try to do yoga two or three days and then just some light stuff around the house. I, I do want to increase my training and I've realized the only reason I want to, though is because of Jiu jitsu, like, I'm starting to get into it. I want to get better at it. I realize the guys I'm going against are, they're training, you know, hard, so I start training a little bit harder. And I actually just purchased your book, your new book, and I'm gonna, I, I should be getting that tomorrow because I realized, like, man, I was like, I, you know, I don't take the time to, like, I'm not training nearly as hard as these guys that I see training all the time. I was like, if I am going to train, I need to do it right. I don't want to keep hurting myself. So. Yeah, your book looked like it had a lot of great stuff in it. So I just, I should be getting that tomorrow. Yeah.

One of the things I talk about in my book that I think, well, any athlete population I've ever spoken to who deals with low back pain, like, there's these exercises called the core foundation exercises, which are, they're kind of funky, but basically involve sticking your butt out in a variety of different positions and arching your back and lifting your arms over your head, and it strengthens your transverse abdominis and some of your deep core muscles and then your hip extensors. And all of those are areas where, if there are deficiencies, you tend to have low back pain. But those 10 exercises, I do them three times a week. So I alternate like one morning I'll do yoga, and then the next morning I'll do those exercises. Not for a long time, like five, ten minutes.

Okay.

And that's it. And that's, you know, knock on wood. One of the best ways to bulletproof yourself in terms of low back injuries are those foundation exercises. So I get into those in the book. Have you. You talking about MMA and kind of using, using yoga makes me think of this guy, Diamond Dallas Page. Have you seen these, these DDP yoga DVDs before?

You know what? I haven't seen his DVDs, but I saw one of the success stories of the vet that couldn't walk. And he was, Yes, I saw that.

I was like, wow, he was on Shark Tank. Yeah, yeah, it's actually, he sent me some of the DVDs to try out, and they're, they're a little bit cheesy, but they're actually, they're, they're pretty tough. And apparently that's how, that's how this wrestler, you know, he's a, well, or a retired professional wrestler now, but that was how he rehabbed his back pain, was doing this special form of yoga that he does. And it's, it's kind of like yoga, except you hold the positions with really extreme muscle contractions for a long period of time. So you jack up your heart rate and you get this cardiovascular boost before you move on to the next exercise. So those are, those are kind of interesting, the DDP Yoga DVDs. I want to also ask you, you know, speaking of kind of training and cardiovascular, like, what, what do you use for training? Or what did you use when you were fighting as far as, like a training protocol?

You know what, we did not train smart back then at all. And you would vary from gym to gym. Lots of times. One of the best things we ever did was we would go to the park and, you know, we'd be carrying each other up, up hills. Just a lot of, a lot of body weight movements. Like, I, I gave up weightlifting early on. I, I, Because I was a power lifter for a long time, and I always thought, you know, big and strong, that was the way to do it. And I tried to do that from the first couple years of fighting, and then I completely gave that up. And, I mean, you'd probably be good to do a little bit of it. But now if I do anything, I'm doing kettlebells and just a lot of, a lot of just body movement and. But yeah, I don't do nearly as much as I should. I really don't do a lot of running at all just because it tears up my back and I'm still kind of heavy. But yeah, just really rolling, you know, a two hour session three times a week and eating right. I've been slowly taking off the weight, you know, trying to add in the yoga, trying to add in the kettlebells. But I am looking for, you know, I'm looking for more. I want to get in better shape and that's what I'm hoping like I'm definitely going to add those, the core foundation exercises in for sure.

Have you, have you seen much of Martin Rooney stuff like his warrior cardio book or ultimate warrior workouts or, or training for warriors or any of those?

I, I interviewed one of his affiliates. I, I hadn't heard of it before, but when I went to, I was in Providence, Rhode Island a couple months ago and I interviewed the instructor from Triforce MMA and they have training for warriors there. And so he was describing it and he kind of put me through a workout and it was, it was pretty awesome.

Yeah, yeah, he's got like his, his, his hurricane protocol. I, the, the reason I, I know about him is I actually, I like to pick something that takes me outside my comfort zone to do in the off season when I'm not training for triathlon. And so I used his warrior cardio book last year and he's got his hurricane sprint protocols where you do like 10 by 30 second reps on the treadmill at 10% incline and 10 miles an hour and then you hop off and do two body weight exercises after each 30 second sprint, then you drop back on the treadmill. Those are, those are really, really good books though. As far as conditioning goes. I'm pretty impressed with, with some of his stuff.

I'll have to check that out because I, and I'm the type of person where I need it laid out for me. I need someone telling me like what to do. If someone tells me what like then I can do it. But yeah, if I put, try to put together my own little workout, it's just not going to happen.

Yeah, exactly. That's, that's the same way I am. I, I'm now going through a guy named Mark Devine, Commander Mark Devine, who's a, he's a seal, an ex Navy seal and he has this program called SEAL Fit and right now I'm getting ready for his, he does like a hell week for civilians down in San Diego and I'm using his eight weeks to SEAL FIT program for that and yeah, it's, it's crazy, crazy workouts. You know, like you'll, you'll do, you know, like literally 100 rope climbs in a row, like 120 foot rope climbs and then drop down and you know, one day's workout will be a thousand push ups. And it's just, you know, crazy kind of, kind of out there type of mental, physical performance things. But it's, that's another really interesting program is a SEAL FIT program. What about mental training? Do you do much in terms of like mental prep, visualization, you know, brain hacking and any of that kind of stuff? When it comes to, to mental prep.

You know what did you.

When you're fighting?

I didn't. And that was the. I, I think probably one of the reasons I wasn't a good fighter was because I lacked, I lacked the confidence. I didn't do any visualization at all. Like one of the things now when, when I'm interviewing guys, I can tell almost immediately like, okay, that guy is going to be successful. There are certain guys that just have that confidence. And then those same guys that have that confidence, I, I'll ask them about like, okay, well what kind of, you know, what kind of visualization, you know, what, what kind of stuff do you do? And that's exactly what they're into. You know, they got that all down. Lots of times. I'll even have the therapist that they're working with, I've talked with a lot of guys that, you know, they were, they were starting to lose a lot and they get with a therapist that putting them through these things and it's a complete turnaround. The, the fighting game is so much mental. I mean you get in there and it's just you against another guy with all these people watching is just so much pressure, you know. And if you don't believe that you're gonna win, if you don't know that you're gonna win, if you don't have the right mental state, then you know, you're at a incredible disadvantage. But you know, I wish, I wish I had done those things now. I'm, I've gotten into meditation over the last two years and I try to do that just for overall health. And it actually helps a lot with my writing. If I meditate before I start writing, then, you know, the creativity is much better.

What do you do?

Lots of times I will just, you know, I'll just put myself in a dark room or just, just sit and I'll just. My brother got me a book a while back. I forget what it was called, but it showed how to run through, try to circulate the energy, the chi or whatever throughout the whole body. And it could take up to like 20 minutes generally. I mean, sometimes it'll just be like five minutes and I'll just try to clear my head and just make everything silent. But yeah, even just something like that helps so much. I think so many of us now just never allow ourselves to be quiet. We always have to have something going on. We have to have our phone on. We, you know, we feel like we're missing out if the TV's not on or we're not learning or we're not reading the latest news. But. And you know, and we're just so uncomfortable with ourselves. But I think, you know, if more people just spend a little bit more time doing that or meditating, I think they'd be a little bit happier.

Yeah. Yeah. So you use that before you write and I noticed you've. I'm looking at your Amazon author page. You, you write a lot of fiction.

Yeah, fiction is my. That, that's my passion. You know, the, the fighting. I. Part of the reason I did the fighting was, you know, I had this unanswered question, but then I was like. I also knew, I was like, well, fighting is really popular and it will sell and you know, maybe that will propel my fiction. But yeah, fiction is that. That's what I love to write about, whether it's science fiction or horror or. I'm trying to touch all the genres and just not be held back by anything. One of the new books I have is a choose your own adventure. You know, I'm doing a whole series of those. I'm about to. We're illustrating a book that my 6 year old daughter and I are co authoring. We're going to have a series of books. I'm going to do one with her each year.

That's not the one called try not to die at grandma's house, is it?

Yeah, that was the choose your own adventure. Okay.

That's not the one you're riding with your little girl though.

So. No, I gave her a copy of it. I was like, enough to read my handwriting on this page. I said, then you could read the book. But no, it's a puzzle at the preschool. We're gonna. She's into detectives and. But it was cool, man. I was able to. At first she didn't want to do it. She's like, I don't know how to write. I was like, yeah, you do. I said, we're just gonna come up with a story and, like, what it did for her and for, you know, her confidence and just to see that she can do this and to know that, you know, in three months, she's gonna be able to take a book to her teachers and it's gonna have her name on it. I was like, I'm. I'm. You know, so I'm writing that. I have another one coming out next week called A Woman With a Gun, about a, you know, like, this really tough chick that drives across the country to save her daughter. And. Yeah, I mean, I'm just. I. I gotta. You know, it's been two years. I think. I. I think I've had three books in two years and, like, maybe two short collections, and I want to keep up at least that pace.

Have you. Have you always written, or do you feel like writing kind of helped almost, like, take you out of MMA and football, and writing is almost like your fix. Instead of getting out and competing and beating people up, you're writing.

It's hard because I started writing at, like, 26, and since then, it's just something that I've had to do. I think when I was fighting, the writing definitely took a backseat, and I don't know. And so it's been a struggle because it's like, okay, I want to write, but, you know, I've been spending so much time with the. Unlocking the cage, you know, it was difficult, but I think when I'm happiest is when I'm writing, you know, and. And I'm glad things didn't work out for me fighting. It's like, because I. I probably wouldn't have. You know, I wouldn't have pursued the. The career like I have, you know, and now I could actually write about it and hopefully do some justice to all these incredible people that I'm meeting. Yeah. Because it's a. It's been awesome then. That's the one thing about the. The. That's the one thing I want to do with Unlocking the cage is just show what kind of people these fighters are, because out of, you know, out of 400, I'd say, like, at least 95% of them are just incredible people. I would let them come over to my house even if I'm not there, you know, just good people. Yeah.

Well, that was actually, you know, one of the reasons that I wanted to get you on the podcast was you're an interesting guy. You're writing, You've. You've fought, you have an interesting take on. On head injuries and kind of like the risk versus reward of sports in general. And I think for folks listening in, like, one of the things that I would encourage people to do is just to kind of tap into some things that go above and beyond, like whatever sport you're beating yourself up with. And, you know, for Mark, it's writing. For me, you know, right now, it's a little bit of music, a little bit of writing, but I think some people just need to think about some other ways that they can fuel that passion, you know, and maybe even, you know, distract themselves a little bit from being a warrior or an extreme competitor and maybe delve into, you know, kind of like the poetry side of things. Right?

Yeah. And in one really cool thing that I'm doing and excited about is I'm putting all kinds of fighters through a writing exercise. And I'm going to put together a book of all these fighters writing about, you know, a moment in their life that changed them, you know, and I'm hoping it's going to be therapeutic for them. And it's just going to come out with some incredible stories and just show that, you know, they're no different than, you know, anyone else. They're just regular people that happen to enjoy fighting, but they've experienced all the same things. But yeah, I encourage everyone to try to write or, yeah, find music, find something. You know, just become as multidimensional as possible and, you know, explore life and enjoy it.

Yeah, very cool. Well, I'll put a link to everything we talked about in the show notes, some of the resources like the lumosity and the n back training and this alpha brain stuff as well as your website and your books. So folks want to check that out, just go over to BenGreenfieldFitness.com and do a search for Mark Tolius over there or follow the link that you'll see over on the website when this comes out. And Mark, thank you so much for coming on the call and sharing some of this stuff with us.

Oh, man, this is awesome. I really appreciate it and I really am going to check out your book and incorporate a lot of that stuff.

Awesome. Well, cool, man. Well, thanks for coming on. Thanks for your time. Until next time, folks. This is Ben Greenfield and Mark Tulia.

Signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com visit BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness, nutrition and performance advice.

Sam.