What Really Makes You Ill? Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong.

On this episode of the Ben Greenfield.

Fitness Podcast, how wrong we could be. Because the more we dug into it, the more we realized that none of that was actually based in science at all. Well, many people still live with the threat of AIDS and believe that there's a virus responsible for it, and yet there is no scientific evidence to prove that virus exists.

Why would we not expect that the planet would want to get rid of human beings naturally that are abusing it?

You know, when you're looking at billions of people doing this, then you can quite see, you know, we're on a very slippery slope.

Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show. Well, I have a controversial episode for you today. I read a big book and you'll learn about it soon. But it was one of those books that probably got both authors canceled from all social media, I would imagine. And if they're on social media, as you hear the interview, they sound like folks who might not be super duper Instagrammers. But anyways, you're gonna like this episode. What really makes you sick? I just finished everyone a massive book. It's a really big book. It was kind of a taste of my own medicine, because I know I recently wrote a big book and this book is like 760something pages. My wife kept asking me at night when I was laying in bed as she was falling asleep what I was reading. And it seems like my answer was the same for like two solid weeks as I made my way through this thing. It was a fascinating book. It's called what really Makes yous Ill. What really Makes yous Ill. Why everything you thought you knew about disease is wrong. Now, I actually mentioned this book when I wrote a post called why I'm Not Afraid of the Coronavirus and A New Controversial View of Viruses in General. And I actually included a few snippets from this book in some of my thoughts on the viruses and the virome. And if you listen to my podcast interview with Dr. Zach Bush, you may have heard his unique take on viruses and the virome on our planet in general. And this book contains some similar information and goes beyond. It's a pretty controversial book really, because it's based on Voltaire's quote that doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little to cure diseases of which they know less in human beings of whom they know nothing. Now, that might be a little bit of an outdated quote because I do think physicians know quite a bit about the human body. However, there are obviously some issues with modern healthcare. And my guests on today's show, the authors of this book, what really Makes yous Ill, have outlined a lot of that in this title. Their names are David Parker and Dawn Lester. And interestingly their backgrounds are in the field of accountancy and electrical engineering respectively. So that's going to be really interesting to hear their take on why they wrote this book as an engineer and an accountant. But anyways, it's fascinating. It goes over everything from planet pollution to non infectious diseases to infectious diseases to pharmaceuticals to vaccinations to the germ theory to emf. I mean it's a really well written, well written title and I will link to it in the show notes and also to everything that Don David and I discuss. If you go to BenGreenfield Fitness ill. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com ill. So that all being said, Don David, welcome to the show.

Thank you and thank you for having us, Ben. We've been looking forward to this for a little while now. So yeah, let's say we can have a really good conversation and bring out some, some of the points that we have raised in our book. Obviously, as you say, it's nearly 800 pages so we're not going to cover all of it. That's for sure.

We're not. You guys don't have 12 hours. Where do you guys live by the. I didn't even realize that. Well, you had an accent obviously. And so I assume based on your publishing location in the book that you were in California, but it sounds like you are elsewhere.

Yes, we're English and we're in the uk. Okay. Just north of London is where we live. Yeah.

Okay, gotcha. And are you guys partners or just business colleagues?

Business colleagues. We've known one another for about 20 years, so we do know one another very well.

Okay.

We've been working on various projects for a while.

Okay, interesting. Well, that's actually what I want to ask you about. What inspired you to an accountant and a frickin electrical engineer to write a massive book about health and disease?

That's a fair question and we do get asked about that sometimes. Right. Well, I'll give you a potted version. Obviously. We started this book. The book took about 10 years of research, so it took a long time to write. And because as you've seen, there's nearly 40 pages of references in it. So it's all got the correct citations of where the information came from. So we knew that we'd have to be very accurate, because it is controversial. Controversial title, which is that way for a reason. Just to give you an idea why we started it then, is going back many years, particularly my personal experiences with friends and family who were diagnosed with various cancers. And all took the normal doctor's treatment and the hospital treatment, and unfortunately, they all died. And there are a range of age groups, and male and female, of course, so there was no sort of pattern to it. And I started to become unhappy with the sort of answers that I was getting from the medical establishment, not least of which was because they were saying at that time, and probably still so now, that they were getting better at treating cancer and were having something like a 50% success rate. I knew straight away that from my own personal experience that it was 100% failure rate. So I knew there was some mismatch between what was being given to the public and what was actually happening, Particularly as I had another relative, an elderly lady who was also diagnosed with cancer, and she flatly refused to have anything to do with the medical establishment and just wanted to be left alone and see how things went. And over the period of a year or two, because the doctor was still monitoring her, there came a time when they said, well, we're pleased to announce that your cancer has completely disappeared. And she continued to live quite a number of years.

Well, you mean like a spontaneous remission, or was she doing work in the alternative medical field outside of standard medical treatments for cancer?

No, she was doing absolutely nothing at all. Just carried on living the normal life that she'd always lived. And of course, this type of thing is what we explain in the book, what causes cancer and how it can be prevented and what you can do should you be diagnosed with it. And of course, as you know from reading the book, none of that is anything to do with taking chemotherapy, which, you know, I firmly believe killed all my family members who all underwent that treatment. Chemotherapy, as you know, is extremely toxic. We learned the way the body does.

That's why it works theoretically, why it can cut, slash and burn to a certain extent, a tumor. And of course, I. I wouldn't necessarily endorse, if you did have cancer, just sitting back and doing nothing. I think you could be a lot more proactive than that. But I am aware of some of these situations of spontaneous remission, even though most of the cases that I've seen. And I actually just recently read an entire book, a new book about spontaneous remissions, and I'll link to it in the show notes, much of that kind of Phenomena is linked to changes in emotional outlook on life, Positive emotions, kind of like Bruce Lipton's biology of belief type of things. So even if someone is not, say, whatever, doing a Garrison protocol or hyperthermic treatment or some other alternative treatment for cancer, in some cases, a spontaneous remission is just due to changes in emotions.

Yes, you're absolutely right. And that does play a very big part in, as you say, positive thinking and believing. The best you know, this is even recognized scientifically with what the medical establishment would call the placebo effect. I'm sure probably many of your listeners are familiar with that, where people are given what amounts to no more than a sugar pill, which they're not aware of, of course, but believe that the pill's strength will make them feel better for whatever it is they've been given it for. And sure enough, they improve. This is purely down to the belief system. And there's also the nocebo effect, where adverse comments and adverse beliefs can cause very detrimental effects, even to the point of someone dying. And there's well documented cases of that as well. Doctors even recognize it as dying of the diagnos. So there's many records about that. And that's the nocebo effect.

People who have taken a placebo in various clinical trials have believed they were taking a pharmaceutical or even a chemotherapy type treatment and have had the side effects that they expected because they thought they were taking a chemotherapy drug. So they had the side effects of either losing their hair or extreme tiredness to be found later at the end of the trial that they were, in fact on a placebo, not an actual drug. So the power of belief is really extremely strong. So, yes, there are lots of actions that people can take, but certainly how they feel and their emotions and their ideas will affect their body and their health.

Yeah. And then in the process of writing this book, David, and kind of digging into the research, where did you meet Don and Dawn? Where did you come into the picture?

Okay, well, again, we're going back sort of 20 years when we were doing various other research sort of independently and then came together. We were. Because we've written another couple of books. But the very first book we wrote was about the nature of reality. We didn't write it under our own names at that time. We wrote it under a pen name of no R for various reasons, which I won't go into now, but so a very different thing altogether, but studying the nature of reality and the state of this reality and consciousness and the power of consciousness and religions and how that all plays a part in it was something that had fascinated me, sort of of my life. So that was. And then dawn and I came together and realized we both had very similar interests. And so we wrote a little book, as we say, called the Nature of Reality, which is still around, still on Amazon. So that was how we came together and found that we had a lot of interests in common. And because, as I said earlier, because of my experiences personally with the health system, realised there was something wrong with that and something we needed to look at. But whilst we were writing that very first book about the nature of reality, there was a. One of the chapters was about health and how belief affected it. And we realized we needed to know a little bit more about viruses because at that time we believed the same as everyone else, that the medical establishment knew exactly what he was doing. It was all based on sound science and that germs of one sort or another caused the majority of illness. And how wrong we could be, because the more we dug into it, the more we realized that none of that was actually based in science at all. And one of the very first diseases, so called, that we looked at purely by chance, was the HIV AIDS controversy. Well, at the time we didn't realize there was a controversy. We thought we knew all about it because we're old enough to have lived through the 80s. And so when that first came on the scene and scared the life out of everyone. And basically, like now with this present pandemic, so called, we were told it was going to kill tens of millions around the world. Whether you were homosexual or heterosexual didn't matter and the world would never be the same again. Unfortunately, none of that came to pass. And as we looked into it, we could see the reasons why. We looked into the science of it and realized that again, there was no science, there was no actual proof for a virus causing aids. And there was much more plausible reasons, which many people know about now, which was due to do with lifestyle in the San Francisco area, nothing to do with homosexuality, just to do with the heavy use of certain drugs, not least of which was poppers, as they were known. And consequently what's a pauper for, people who might not know what that is, Amyl nitrate, basically. And they used to. They come in sort of normally used to come in little glass vials which people, users of them would break and inhale the Amy nitrate. And it gave a high and a relaxed feeling, but it's quite toxic to the body. And heavy use of that, accompanied with a heavy use of antibiotics, was what was actually causing the problems.

So you're not saying that an acquired immunodeficiency syndrome doesn't exist. You're saying that it was caused by the use of things like poppers and other. What was the other thing you just mentioned? The antibiotics and that that's what was causing immunosuppression and that it wasn't necessarily a virus that was causing immunosuppression.

No. Well, it definitely wasn't a virus. I mean, I'm only giving a thumbnail sketch of it because we spent a lot of time investigating this, talked to other doctors and other researchers over a year or two, looked into the evidence and some doctors would only speak to us privately. They wouldn't go on the record. This was something we have come across quite a lot because obviously they feared the loss of their job. As some have already discovered, the establishment, the medical establishment doesn't take kindly to any doctors speaking out and refuting what the paradigm is. So, yeah, but we were able to find out the evidence to show that that one particular one was certainly not caused by virus at all. And to this day, no one has actually proved there is a virus that is the cause of aids. I know they may say they have, but one of the things, as we did with all the other diseases that we investigated, we looked for the original scientific papers, which there should always be peer reviewed papers to show what discoveries have been made by the medical establishment. So we looked for the basic things that you should be able to find is a peer reviewed paper which is shows that the virus has been isolated, that it's been fully categorized and that there's been placebo tests done.

Are those Cox postulates, is that you're referring to?

Well, yes, they come into it, but they should also be able to have done tests which prove that that particular virus is the sole cause of the particular disease that's attributed to it. And surprisingly, I mean, it was a great shock to us because that was the first disease we investigated. We found that those papers didn't exist. And we've also found that although unfortunately he died last year, Kerry Mullis, who was the discoverer and inventor of the PCR test, which is still used today and for which he won a Nobel Prize, he also looked for those papers and he said they don't exist, they are nowhere to be found. Which is astounding, isn't it? When we still live with, or many people still live with the threat of AIDS and believe that there's a virus responsible for it, and yet there is no scientific evidence to prove that virus exists. And so that's really what then kicked us off on writing the book that we did, because we, dawn and I thought, well, I mean, we were genuinely shocked. And we thought, well, if they can be so wrong about that particular virus, what else are they wrong about? And that's really what kicked off our investigation. Now, some people, to come back to your question, some people ask, well, how come an electrical engineer and accountant, you know, your backgrounds are not medical, you know, how can you write such a book? And that's a fair question, but because both dawn and I, with the training that we've had and the qualifications we have, have very necessary, necessarily, a technical and analytical mind to do the jobs we did. So what we were able to do is investigate without any biases and without any fear of sort of treading on people's toes. We just followed the evidence and just kept going. And that's why it took 10 years, because we dug deep and we could never take no for an answer. We kept looking. And unlike doctors who. And we also investigated how doctors are trained, we soon realized, and this is by talking to doctors, that their training only takes them so far. You know, they're not allowed to ask the sort of questions we could ask in their training. They would literally learn almost by road. You know, they would be told, well, this particular disease is caused by this virus or. Or this bacteria, and this is the treatment we would give for it. They were never allowed to ask the questions, well, how do you know that that virus causes that disease or that bacteria causes that disease? How do you know? They were never allowed to ask that, of course, and if they did, they soon got short shrift because, like in all exams, you need to answer the questions that you're given in the way you've been trained to answer them. And if you go outside of that, then you don't pass your examination. It's as simple as that. And any doctor will tell you that if they're honest, that's fair enough.

That. And it makes sense that you, as an electrical engineer and accountant, do approach this from a logical standpoint without quite as much bias as someone who might be immersed in the medical field may have. And I certainly don't question your ability to be able to write a book. I was just kind of curious about, like, you know, why you would have gotten so interested in this in the first place. And it sounds like a lot of it was. Was kind of began with your own personal experience with family members and with cancer, which is honestly Why? I think a lot of people start to look into things like this as a loved one or themselves comes down with something and they start digging beyond what the medical system might provide at first glance or on a shallow level. So then you wrote this book, and I do have one question that I just wanted to ask you. It might be a little bit of a rabbit hole about aids, but you mentioned the issue with poppers and antibiotics in San Francisco, making people more susceptible to immune system deficiencies and this immunodeficiency syndrome. But what about like in Africa where, you know, I don't think people are, you know, running around doing poppers or I don't know what the antibiotic prevalence is, but, you know, there are things like chronic fever and chronic diarrhea and loss of body weight and all, you know, all these issues that are attributed to AIDS that are, you know, occur on a. On a increasingly common basis in Africa. It's obviously an issue there. So if it's not a virus that is causing that type of issue in Africa, and it's not, say, poppers and antibiotics, why would HIV and AIDS be such an issue on that continent?

Okay, now that's a fair question, and it is something we looked into in great depth. Again, some years ago, I lived in Africa. I lived in West Africa for a while. So when I have friends there and still have friends from Africa. And again, it's a fairly complex story, so I'll try and be as brief as I can. One of the main reasons the way that AIDS was funded, shall we say, in Africa, the various little clinics that are dotted around in Africa depended on got more funding, shall we say, got more funding if they had so many AIDS cases. Now, the fact that people were not suffering from aids, they may be suffering from malaria or dysentery or various other illnesses that often afflict people in Africa, not least of which was malnutrition, which has many of the same symptoms as almost any disease you can name, but they didn't get funding for those sorts of things. So they found that if they built up and put people down as being suffering from aids, they got more funding from the who.

Sounds a little bit like the use of a ventilator for coronavirus in hospitals.

In the U.S. well, yes, it all comes down to funding and a rather corrupt system where you. But you end up with skewed figures of how many people have actually got a particular disease. And we're seeing, as you quite rightly say, some of that with this or quite a bit of that with this so called coronavirus, spread of coronavirus, so it can all be tied to funding. And I also find because of living in Africa and talking to people used to get the same sort of thing with malaria in the same way as people say in the States or the UK or Western countries. You know, if people get sort of a heavy cold, let's say flu like symptoms, they don't have any tests done, they don't go to the doctors, they just maybe take some time off work and say, I've got a touch of the flu. It could be something entirely different. But in Africa when someone gets those symptoms, they say, I've got a touch of malaria. And I've experienced this many times when I was there and talking to my African friends, both there and in the uk. So, and I've asked them about it and said, well, how do you know you've actually got malaria? Do you actually go and have some tests? They said, well, no, you know, this is just, you know, this is what you expect in these certain areas. So you can see how a false impression of any particular disease can be built up purely by what people think they might have and how they misconstrue the symptoms. So it's quite a complex picture of what people think without any actual tests. And also in the case of AIDS, for funding that they wouldn't normally get unless they put it down as a particular case.

There is another point, as David was saying about tests. One of the main factors in the number of cases of people that are now claimed to be living with HIV in Africa is down to the test, which, again, very similar to the test for the coronavirus that's going on now, doesn't actually test for the presence of a virus, it just detects the presence of certain antibodies. And there are many conditions that can actually produce a positive test, a positive test result. And one of those conditions is, is pregnancy. Therefore, by having a large number of tests being conducted or the majority of tests being conducted at antenatal clinics, they are producing a huge amount of false positives because it's based on these proteins that are found in the body that occur quite often during pregnancy. So it's nothing to do with hiv, it's to do with a particular test result. And that's really skewing the figures because these statistics from antenatal clinics in African countries is then used as the basis for extrapolation to the rest of the population. But this is completely out of kilter from what actually is the case. But of course there is no virus that they're looking for, but they are, again, looking for antibodies that aren't specific to any particular virus and can be there for a number of reasons. But as I say, the pregnancy is the one that's quite important to kind of recognise, because, as I say, that's where they're taking a lot of their statistics from.

Yeah, that's interesting. So essentially what you're saying is the presence of antibodies is currently being used to assume the presence of a virus that causes antibodies to get produced, when in fact the antibodies in the case of something like AIDS are actually produced due to the mere fact that a woman is pregnant, not that she has hiv.

Correct.

Yeah.

Interesting. Now, the other thing I thought that was really interesting that you guys note when you were talking about HIV and AIDS in Africa, was these enormous pesticide waste sites where all the excess pesticide stock gets dumped. And. And the fact that all of these different chemicals like DDT and Endrin and Heptaclor, all the things are banned in a lot of countries, and all the organic phosphates, what you see around those areas is a lot of folks showing the signs and symptoms of what we call aids, and that's being blamed on the virus, hiv, when in fact it might be, in this case, living conditions. And the reason I bring this up is it reminds me, I had a conversation with a guy I mentioned earlier, Dr. Zach Bush, about viruses, and he pointed out the fact that where you do see coronavirus symptoms popping up in the greatest density are the areas with either poor air quality, air pollution, or hefty use of herbicides and pesticides like glyphosate. And so it is kind of interesting that there seems to be a pretty big environmental component here in terms of. And the way he kind of explained it was actually, I thought, quite elegant. You know, you abuse the planet, you abuse this mother planet, Mother Earth that we walk upon, and the virome that covers this planet with trillions of viruses, you know, and something as simple as a pound of feces all of a sudden become something that can actually take advantage of the immune system in the body or cause a lot of symptomatic issues. But in many cases it is simply related to the way in which we not only treat our internal environment, which of course you guys get into in the book, but also our external environment. You know, pesticides and waste sites and herbicides and pollution and, you know, essentially, pardon the expression, when we're raping the planet that we live on, the viromes that we're supposed to be, you know, living with in a relatively kind of peaceful scenario on this planet all of a sudden become almost like this, this pathogen against our body.

Well, they certainly get tagged as such. But from our research we have not found any scientific evidence to show that either the so called viruses and we'll explain a little more if you wish as to what we found. These particles are that are called viruses. So we've never found any scientific evidence to prove that any viral particles can be attributed to any particular disease is often blamed for it. But there's no scientific evidence to back that up, which is probably very surprising to most people.

Well, in your book you say that the functions attributed to viruses and the causation of disease are based on assumptions and extrapolations from laboratory experience or experiments that have not only failed to prove, but are incapable of proving that viruses cause disease. Is that what you're getting at?

That's correct, yes. And again, in the same way that we look for the peer reviewed papers for the actual cause of HIV aids, we look for the peer reviewed papers for all of these other so called viral diseases and then again they're not there. And we're not the only people to look for these of course, but they're not there. And this is in itself, if people think about it, to write a peer reviewed paper for something is quite a big deal for anyone in the scientific community or the medical community because if you get your name on a peer reviewed paper, you know, it's quite an accolade and you know to be crude it will mean more money and better jobs. So and go down in medical history as being the discoverer of a certain or a cause of a certain disease. So it's quite important things. So these papers should be easily found and readily available and they're not. So that's the first sort of warning bell that we found is to well why aren't these papers available? Where are they? And we have the same thing of course with the so called coronavirus, where again there is no scientific evidence to prove that that virus exists. And we know that in the UK and New Zealand for instance, just to state two cases, various people have written to the government under the Freedom of Information act to ask for those papers, actually ask the government for those papers. And I've seen the documents that have come back from the government saying we're not in possession of that information, which is astounding, isn't it? So you think, well how can you lock a country down basically and impose all these draconian measures and you've openly Admitted you're not in possession of the scientific information to prove that there is an actual virus causing a problem. So you then have to ask what is going off? And maybe going into the politics of it is not something you want to go into on your show today, but it is something we had to examine.

Well, I mean, my take on it is we could go into the politics of it it and what I find is it just turns into either an echo chamber or relatively depressing conversation that in the end doesn't, doesn't help people as much as just creates more confusion. I certainly pay attention to a lot of the politics, a lot of the so called conspiracy theories. I probably pay more attention to all of that and immerse myself in all of that more than most people realize. However, I don't address it quite frequently on my show because I don't necessarily want to, let's say, contribute to that noise quite as much as providing solutions and providing some clarity. I think that one thing that would provide clarity for people because it's a really good historical anecdote that I think parallels quite nicely to the time that we're living in right now is that of the 1918 flu epidemic. Because that was probably the first time when I was reading your book. I think it's in the first 100 or 200 pages that my eyebrow went up and I kind of thought, oh, this is actually really interesting. I never thought about the 1918 flu pandemic this way. Maybe I should interview these people. And that's what kind of got me through. The rest of the book was actually reading that anecdote about the 1918 flu epidemic and what might have really caused a lot of the deaths that occurred during that time. So that's something I would like to focus on because I think we can learn from history. So what exactly happened during, during the 1918 flu pandemic?

Yes. Okay. No, it's. It is a very interesting subject. I'm glad you brought it up as we found it immensely interesting and it's not a straightforward picture at all. So it took quite a lot of delving and investigations to find out what actually had gone off. And the first thing that we found great discrepancies on the amount of people worldwide that was supposed to have died from this flu epidemic. And we found that it could range, and these are official figures, could range, depending on who you spoke to, anywhere from 10 million to 100 million, which is a first of a warning bell, is. Well, that can't be very accurate recording if you've got discrepancies between 10 or 100 million. So something's very much askew. That again, it's quite a long and complex story. So I'll try and be as brief as I can. But we looked into what was really going off on that and there's a number of things that need to be looked at, not least of which is the vaccination regimes for the military men and women at the time. And a lot of the reports showed that rather than acting like a normal. What we would normally think of flu, where people start to feel not well and it slowly gets worse over a period of days and they become increasingly worse over a couple of weeks. What was happening with this is people sometimes, and this was young, healthy men, because we're talking about people in the army. So they'll be the pick of the crop if you like. The young, fit and healthy people were succumbing to becoming ill sometimes within hours or a day of having their raft of vaccinations. In some cases they were so ill that they died. Now again, this is not something that would be a normal sort of flu symptoms. And other things that were found is as we investigated that many of these people who were dying from this so called flu were actually haemorrhaging inside. They were having brain haemorrhages and basically haemorrhaging internally. So again, this is not something that is expected from normal flu symptoms. So there's quite a variety of things that were going off. Now there's also at that same time, and there's been a book written about it called the Invisible Rainbow, which I think a lot of people may be aware of by again an electrical engineer who looked at the history of the introduction of not only electricity into the world but also the introduction of telecommunications and radar. And there is a pattern when you look at it for where some of the first deaths from this so called flu epidemic and the most severe cases tended to center around army or military bases where quite high powered telecommunication masks and equipment had been installed. Because we're looking at the. Around the First World War now.

So they found all these, these kind of like high power radio wave towers near military establishments where it appeared that a lot of the influenza symptoms were concentrated.

Yes, correct. And as I say, the symptoms were very strange with this predominance of hemorrhage, which is not what people would see today in what they would class as flu. They don't have those sorts of symptoms and quick illness and often quick death from these things. So those are Several factors there. And also we found that in India where supposedly again confusing figures, but we've seen figures of 10 million people died in India, again reputedly from this flu virus. But at first they were blaming the soldiers from coming back from the war and bringing it with them. But we have to remember that these are on troop ships. So when you look at the actual history of it, it can be seen that people were dying in great numbers in India before the troops had actually returned. So they couldn't have been bringing the disease with them at that time. So have to look deeper as to what was going off. There was climatic changes then which was causing one of the worst droughts and famines in India that they'd ever had. I mean droughts and famines had been common occurrences in India, but this was one of the worst ones due to, I think it was the El Nimo where it had moved and had caused very severe drought. So a lot of these people, rather than dying from any virus, had actually starved to death because of lack of food and lack of good nourishment. So again, very confused figures and inaccurate reporting as to what people were dying of. So quite a mixture of things as to what the actual so called Spanish flu or the 1918 flu epidemic was. Again, no research came up that showed that it could be proved that a virus was at the base of it. It had to be something else.

Yeah, and you also discuss of course that I think this book called Pandora's Poison, where the extremely toxic nature of chlorine gas is described and that was used heavily during World War II along with a host of other chlorine based chemicals. There was a significant uptick in the use of nitroglycerin to many manufacture gunpowder, which also results in a lot of the same symptoms as influenza. And then when paired with a lot of the increased electrical activity that you were talking about, the high power radio waves, all these other issues, it sounds like this was a cluster of factors that all colluded to create flu like symptoms in a wide variety of people. But what you're saying is that it can't actually be proven scientifically or in a lab or otherwise, that it was actually a virus that caused the 1918 flu pandemic.

Yes, you're absolutely correct. It was a variety of factors, none of which were a germ.

And also the fact of going back to what we're saying about emotions and how people feel, that was the very first time the world had been at war. And so is extremely strange, you know, even for the people who were non combatants. So even the civilians who were involved, whether involved in the war effort and making weapons or things like that are absolutely traumatic. So, yes, that would have had a very severe effect on people's health as well. So it's not one factor. You know, we're not saying there was, you know, only one factor, but like you say, it was a. It was a whole combination of factors that together produce these lots of illness and obviously death as well. So it's a real combination. And one of the other factors was the use of aspirin, and at the time it was being used at much higher doses than it would normally have been used at. And that also contributed to some very severe effects. And that certainly hastened the. The death of many people as well, who were taking that prophylactically as well as. As a treatment. So, again, lots of different factors and all working together at a very, very traumatic time.

Yeah, it's kind of interesting because some of this stuff also, if you want to get super woo and you consider like the global state of consciousness, you know, whenever something very concerning is happening on the planet that we live upon, people may actually see a suppression of emotions or become more susceptible to disease, again based back to this biology of belief. So you would imagine during something like a world war, or during something like a worldwide economic depression due to arguably poor responses to a viral pandemic, or due to, for example, just increased levels of obesity and chronic disease and inflammation overall. Perhaps from the flip side, dragging down people emotionally, we can see this global shift in consciousness. I've seen some fantastic literature about group meditation kind of elevating the frequency and the vibration and the global consciousness of an entire room. And if an entire planet is brought down, or conversely entire planet is brought up emotionally, I would imagine there's probably effect on that level too, although I'm sure I just lost half my listeners.

No, but you're absolutely correct. I think people underestimate the power of mind, the power of thought in these sorts of things. I mean, as dawn has said, a world war of such catastrophic proportions, for anyone who's not lived through a war, it's unimaginable. And the conditions that troops were living in, in the trenches, because it's much of trench warfare in the First World War in itself must have scarred people mentally beyond belief and I'm sure contributed to very early deaths. And wherever you get those sorts of conditions, you're going to get very severe symptoms which people could attribute to someone coming down with the flu. But it's again, there's nothing to do with that. And I'm glad you mentioned chlorine gas because as you rightly say, we do talk about that quite a bit. Yeah.

Why do you guys talk so much about chlorine? One reason I ask is I swam in it for, like, 20 years as a triathlete, so I literally lived half my life in chlorine for much of my earlier years of my life. So explain to me what's going on with chlorine here?

Well, I mean, chlorine's been around for a long time, you know, at least over 100 years. But chlorine in nature is always found in compounds, you know, such as sodium chloride or better known as salt. And in that form it's stable. But when chlorine gas is released from this or any other compound, its nature changes. And chlorine gas is highly reactive and it combines very quickly with organic matter, any organic matter, really. And of course, the human body is composed of. Of organic matter. So what chlorine gas does, once it's released from these compounds and forms these others, it's very hazardous to humans and hence why it was used for gas attacks in World War I. And it forms new compounds, probably better known as organochlorines. Again, these have been shown to be very dangerous in biological processes, you know, and they'll affect, within humans and animals, development in. Well, development generally, and certainly in reproduction and brain functions. It's quite dangerous stuff. But as you said, it's a bit like Pandora's box, because now it's been released, there's no controlling it. It's out there in the world and forms these organic chlorine compounds and people coming into contact with it in various ways and depending on their exposure, it can be quite detrimental to them. It is strange to us that knowing what we know about chlorine, why it's used in, such as water treatment plants, you know, and as you quite rightly say, within swimming pools, you know, ostensibly to kill germs. But, you know, which brings us back to square one, where germs, as we've shown and the research has shown, they're not the problem. But these toxic materials such as chlorine is. I mean, in the uk, we get chlorine added to our drinking water at the treatment plants along with fluoride, and they've now started adding ammonia. So there's a real toxic mix. So we have to protect ourselves in the uk, for those that are in the know, and install water treatment plants of our own, you know, reverse osmosis or distillers of one. So. So that at least we can have pure drinking water because otherwise you're slowly.

Being poisoned right now. Fortunately, and I did a whole interview a couple years ago, how to reduce the risk from swimming in chlorinated pools and drinking chlorinated water. There's some stuff you can do, like higher dose vitamin C intake. My guest on that show, Dr. David Gedoff, also actually recommended vitamin D and alpha lipoic acid. And then of course, when available, and this is the way I've begun to treat most of my pools, or hot tub, swimming pool, cold pool, etc. Is just ozone and UV. But I thought it was interesting how big of an issue worldwide chlorination is. I mean, it's widely used. And this idea that it can combine with disinfection byproducts, which you get into in the book to form chloroform, which. Which is highly toxic, or the fact that it can interact with organic matter, such as, like skin cells floating on the top of a pool that you might be swimming in, dictates that it is something to be concerned about. I just didn't realize it was as big of an issue until after reading your book. Now, of course, there are also some things in your book that I haven't discussed before on the show. Take comets, for example. Freaking comets. You talk about giant rocks in space in the book and you relate those to the plague. You relate a lot of environmental factors like radioactivity and volcanic eruptions for major shifts in world health, which I thought was fascinating. Can you just kind of give people a preview of what you think are the most important things to understand regarding something like comets or volcanic eruptions?

Okay, well, I think you're alluding to the part in the book where one of the diseases so cool that we investigated was better known as the Black Death or the Great Plague. Because while we were investigating the book, we did the same as many people. We sort of kept throwing questions at ourselves of, well, what if, you know, if what we're finding out is true, that germs don't cause disease, what does? And so we set ourselves the task of looking back in history and looking at present days. And of course, one of the big things, things, not only the 1918 flu, which we looked at was obviously one biggie, was the Black Death, which certainly when we were in school, we were taught was all to do with infected rat fleas infecting humans and killing them as well as the rats that they were living on. Okay, well, we'll investigate this and see if this is true also. And again, cutting a long story short, no, it isn't. And, and we relied a lot on, quite rightly, on eyewitness accounts which are well documented, where people were talking about not only a very choking and sickly toxic atmosphere, and this is over wide areas, we're talking right over Europe, you know, massive areas, but also that the rivers and lakes that fish in large numbers were floating to the surface dead. Well, you know, this can't be anything to do with rat fleas. You know, you've got sort of the fish dying and floating to surface. So obviously something was poisoning not only the atmosphere, but the waterways as well. So the more we looked into it, we soon started to discount rat fleas. And I think a lot of archaeological evidence recently has sort of already given the lie to that.

Right. Well, you know, in the book that excavations in London have turned up very little evidence of any kind of massive rat die off that would have coincided with the timing of the plague.

Correct. So the eyewitness accounts talked at this time of these environmental factors which you mentioned that there were volcanic eruptions and earthquakes and strangely, a lot of eyewitness accounts mentioning a comet coming close into the Earth's atmosphere, which. Which seemed to also contribute to the debris in this poisonous toxic atmosphere. So those are eyewitness accounts. But then we also found the work of a doctor, professor, actually Mike Bailey at an Irish university who'd written a book called New Light on the Black Death. And he was a, what still is, I assume, a dendrochronologist. So he studied for a living tree rings. Now many trees being very long lived, he could go back to trees that were alive during that period and examine the tree rings and tell what the atmosphere was like at that time. And sure enough, he found that the atmosphere, the tree rings confirmed that the atmosphere had become extremely toxic and polluted with high levels of ammonia, for one. And he also did a correlation between the tree rings and ice core samples and found exactly the same. So we had good scientific correlation that the large areas of the world atmosphere become extremely toxic and poisonous and would account, of course, for people dying very quickly. I mean, people could just drop dead in the street. Again, it wasn't a case of people become ill and slowly get worse and die. People were dying very quickly. So again, a bit of a thumbnail sketch there.

Yeah, but you know, you know what, though, it's super related to what we already talked about regarding something like the environmental conditions in a place like Africa and the contribution to immunodeficiency syndrome or the presence of the large amounts of pollution and chlorination in some areas where influenza was popping up during the 1918 flu epidemic. And then you look at this and we know and, and that Professor Bailey explains. You cite him in your books, talking about hydrogen sulfide and carbon disulfide and some of these, these chemicals that have been detected in comets. And then you combine that with, you know, with things like a lot of people don't realize this, but when there is an earthquake, you actually get quite a bit of chemical exposure, air pollution and toxic compounds released from the Earth's core out into the atmosphere. And again, if you relate this back to like, you know, I was talking about not to kick this horse to death, but, you know, with, with Dr. Zach Bush. And now, you know, on this podcast already with you guys, every time we see that the Earth is getting beat up either by us humans or by natural events like a volcano or an earthquake or any other natural disaster, it appears to coincide with humans dying from some of the sickness that tends to spread as a result of that. And so I've never really thought of before I read your guys's book about this on that type of level, thinking that, oh, this is just like a natural cycle, right? Like bad things happen, natural disasters happen, etc. And people get sick and people get die or people die, and then we develop some kind of herd immunity, we move on, we bounce back, we grow stronger. And the other thing that we should not be doing is polluting the planet ourselves because Lord knows we have enough to deal with with natural disasters. Why would we be dumping a bunch of extra stress on the planet and on our own bodies with pesticides, herbicides, air pollution, you know, heavy use of plastics, you know, all the other ways in which we're destroying the planet we live on. Why would we not expect that the planet would want to get rid of human beings naturally that are abusing it?

Well, yes, and of course, as you know, we talk about extensively in our book about all the different sources of pollution which not only gets into the atmosphere and into our water, but also that we or many people unknowingly put on or in their bodies. And we sort of talk quite extensively about people being aware of this. You know, whether it's in the sort of cosmetics that they may use or the Washington washing facilities they may use, or even household cleaning products. You know, you need to be very much aware of the contents of these things because every little is a little more poison that you're subjecting yourself to and also the world. You know, when you're looking at billions of people doing this, then you can quite see, you know, we're on a very slippery slope.

Yeah. And surely chronic diseases especially are not necessarily purely a result of environmental conditions outside the body, although of course, they are heavily related to internal environmental conditions. And, you know, I do want to make sure that this entire podcast is not about just fear mongering and scaring people about all the bad things that are happening around us. You actually have a chapter that kind of, kind of leads into some of the solutions that you present. And I do want to dig into the solutions. But the chapter that leads into the solutions that you present is called the Nature of Disease. And I believe you identify four different factors that you guys, after having done all the research for this book, really think are the things that make us ill or would define the nature of disease. So can you explain what you guys believe the nature of disease is based on the way you outline it in the book?

Yes, because our investigations could not find any proof that any germs were the cause of any disease. Whereas we knew, of course, that people did get ill, some very seriously, and die. So we obviously wanted to know the reasons for that. And again, cutting long story short, it boiled down to the four factors that we talk about in the book. And these are exposure to toxins, poor nutrition, exposure to EMFs, electromagnetic frequencies, and excessive and prolonged stress. And we found that we could trace any disease, or shall we say illness you care to mention that would be attributed to one or more of those four factors. And this is regardless of what names the medical establishment put on it, and including some of the illnesses which they call autoimmune diseases. And this is basically a bit of a cop out by them when they can't attribute a particular illness to a germ of some sort. So they say that the body's attacking itself, basically, and call it an autoimmune disease, you know, such as multiple sclerosis. Again, we investigated those and realized there were much more probable reasons as to why those illnesses occurred. And particularly with, I mentioned multiple cirrhosis, which tends to be damaged to the myelin sheath of the nerves. The nervous system breaks down.

Well, I can certainly get on board with those four facts. I'm gonna repeat those because I think it actually is a very unique, and I love the approach, very unique approach. Toto. The four things that you guys say are the real true nature of disease or what really makes us ill. So we got nutrition, which, you know, I'm not necessarily an advocate of any particular diet, but of course I believe that both the food and the water that you put into your body have a profound impact on health. So I'm completely on board with that. I would not argue with that. The second one is toxic exposures, which we've already kind of talked about a little bit when it comes to exposure to a lot of environmental pollutants, kind of shifting the body out of normal homeostasis. And we know that we are surrounded by a host of toxins. I've done many, many podcasts on insecticides, herbicides, pesticides, metals, et cetera, et cetera. And so I would, I would agree with you on that. The third one that you say is electromagnetic radiation. That's probably the one that I think people would most raise an eyebrow at. Yet when you do read a book like the Invisible Rainbow or, you know, or like Joe Mercola's new book, EMF, etc. We do know that our bodies are not bulletproof to wireless radiation and electromagnetic fields. And I personally see this in many of my clients and also in myself, a sensitivity to and poor feelings of energy and poor overall health when exposed to high levels of non ionizing radiation. And so I think that that's probably going to be an increasingly concerning issue as well. And then finally you say stress, chronic stress. And I've talked about this book called the Healing Code that in fact states that every disease is related to chronic stress. I kind of like your guys approach of four different factors instead. You know, the nutrition, toxic exposures, EM radiation exposures, and stress. But it's a really kind of elegant way to lay all of this out. And I did have one question for you related to the nutrition piece before we get into some solutions. And that is have you guys, in the course of writing this book changed the way that you personally eat? Are either of you following a particular diet based on some of the things you learned while writing this book?

Well, yes, I mean, dawn and I were both vegetarians. I mean I've been vegetarian for over 45 years. But as we wrote the book and realized more and more how important nutrition was and how you put in your body, we became vegans. And so we recommend, you know, a plant based diet, a nutritious plant based diet, and organic food wherever you can. And we do explain why we, why we recommend organic food. Again, this is to do with polluted soils, with pesticides, insecticides, which you've mentioned. And also how because of the factory farm that we've experienced over the decades, many Soils are what you would think would be called dead nutritionally. So the plants that are grown in them only grow because of the fertilizers, which are sort of chemical fertilizers that are put on them. So the plants aren't able to take up all the nutrients, natural nutrients from the soils, because the soils are dead. So magnesium is one of them that gets lost in this process. Whereas at least if you're eating organic food, you know that at least there's some better controls on the soils. So the plants that are grown in them are able to take up a full range of nutrients which they then pass on to you when you eat them. So it's a fairly simple concept really. And so we've definitely followed that and become much stricter with what we eat. And the more raw food that you can eat, the better. Because obviously, I'm sure people know that as soon as you start cooking things, you start to lose some of the nutritional value.

Well, it depends. Depends on what you're cooking really. I mean, in some cases you can increase the nutritional value.

Yeah, but just as a general concept. But I mean, a lot of vegetables you can eat raw and certainly fruit, of course. And there's a lot of nutrients to be gained from fruit and nuts and seeds. So there's lots of stuff that you don't need to cook. But it's having that variety of natural foods, healthy foods, that gives the body or creates a healthy. Helps create a healthy body so that it can get rid of the. It can get rid of the toxic materials that have accumulated in the body. It can actually go through its normal cleaning, detoxifying processes. But it needs to that nutrition to be able to do that. Because during a normal life cycle of a body, it produces things called free radicals. This is quite normal. And the body flushes them out in the normal process of living. But it needs sort of antioxidants which you get from your fruit and vegetables to be able to do that. So if you've got a poorly nutritious diet, you're not having the antioxidants which will combat the free radicals. And free radicals can be quite damaging at cellular level and can cause cellular damage and if not attended to, can eventually lead to sort of organ damage as well.

Yeah, and of course, you know, I personally eat an omnivorous diet, a wide variety of regeneratively raised animals or animals that I've. That I've hunted personally. And I know the source of that meat. I think deep fried foods and vegetable oils in particular. A lot of of polyunsaturated fatty acids. Those are the highest sources of free radicals, just from the oil oxidation. So I think if someone could make any dietary modification, that would be the very first thing to get rid of would be all fried foods and vegetable oils. But, you know, in terms of eating raw, I don't know if I'm on board with that. I mean, there was a pretty good report in the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry a few years ago where they investigated every freaking vegetable on the face of the planet. And they found that boiling and steaming actually, actually preserved antioxidants like carotenoids in many foods, like carrots or zucchini or broccoli and other foods did better raw. For example, the vitamin C that you might get from a tomato, for example, would wind up getting degraded through oxidation and exposure to heat. But I agree that we see over and over again in most long lived populations just from a pure epidemiological standpoint, wide variety of plants, herbs, spices, and relative absence of vegetable oil. Particularly now when it comes to these four factors. Nutrition, EMFs, toxins and stress. I'm sure that you guys have some other ideas based on what you learned writing the book about how we can be naturally healthy. And I know that we're coming up against time pretty soon, but I would love to hear each of you kind of give your own spiel on what you think are the best tactics that we have in our health toolbox right now to battle a lot of the issues that are going on around us, particularly related to either the internal environment or the external environment making us more susceptible to disease. And maybe Don can go first, because I think Don hasn't got a chance to talk as much as David. David's been hogging the mic.

That's okay. Yes, well, taking each of the four factors, knowing that poor nutrition contributes to bad health, then obviously one of the things to do is to look at the diet and to. I mean, there's certain foods that you were saying to avoid, but one of the other big food groups to avoid are processed foods, especially sort of manufactured food products that rarely contain any kind of level of nutrients, Certainly because of the processing, in most cases the loser nutritional value. But also they use a lot of chemicals as preservatives or colouring agents or flavouring agents. And when you look at the chemicals that are used, you know they're not healthy at all. And some of them do involve like petrochemicals and that kind of thing, which you think, well, you don't really want to eat that so one of the solutions really is to look at your diet and to eat as what you might call as cleanly as possible, as fresh as possible, and avoiding foods that are processed or that have been had, pesticides and those sorts of things. So that's one thing which actually does two things because it increases the nutrient level within the body, it also helps the body expel the toxins and so it increases nutrition but also helps to remove toxins. So it does sort of two things in one go. Exposures to toxic chemicals. I mean the only thing you can do is learn where the sources of toxins are. So all the products that you may use personally or in the home, these are the kind of products that you can make changes. You know, you can look at the labels, decide which chemicals you don't want and go for non toxic alternatives. And there's definitely a growing market for people producing non or less toxic non toxic products. But many cleaning agents you don't even need to buy because there are certain very simple things you can do for cleaning.

Oh yeah, lemon juice, salt, vinegar. There's all sorts of simple ways to detox. So you get eat clean, detox. I would imagine you were going to mention cleaning up the electrical environment too, just based on the emfs. What about the stress? What's the number one thing that you do personally to manage stress, Dawn?

Well, just to try, well to recognise that it can be detrimental. So to try and take time out to find things that are enjoyable and amusing, to spend time outdoors in the fresh air, exercise to do things that you enjoy, to find time to relax. But one of the other things is to avoid things that make you fearful. And of course that's one of the things, that's one of the big things that's going on at the moment that everyone's being made to live in fear. Which is why we try and stress the fact that, you know, this is not a dangerous virus that's going around to help people remove their fear about some invisible enemy which doesn't actually exist. So it is to what, to just find ways to lift your spirits, to do things that you enjoy. It's not always easy.

Replace fear with, I think trust and joy are the two. So for me it's trusting God, prayer, belief in a higher power and turning a lot of my worries over to God and then at the same time joy like singing, laughter, family, hobbies, activities, all the things that make you forget about the fear that's blanketing our environment right now. So yeah, I am totally on board with that the other thing is. And I think this is really important, and so I want to mention it because I don't know how much I didn't see you talk about a lot of this in the book, but I think it's really important when we're looking at how much this comes down to the Earth and the environment that we live in. Yeah. Eat, clean, clean up EMF in your personal environment. De stress, begin to use natural personal care products and household cleaning chemicals and clean up toxins. But also consider our planet, because that's the entire other part of this equation. Right. Use reusable bags when you're going shopping. Print as little as necessary unless you have to print, recycle, reusable beverage containers. Don't throw books and papers and things like that away unless you absolutely have to save electricity, save water, carpool, you know, and you know, there's a lot of things that you can do to care for this planet. I mean, even. I'm even getting very careful because I read some interesting data about how much extra carbon you burn through just downloading extra things on the Internet. Even that's not free from a planetary standpoint. So if you don't have to download something and use bandwidth, don't download it. I mean, people just, just think bandwidth is free, but it's actually not. It actually does take energy to produce, and that's just yet another kind of carbon drain. So, so, so I think that the environmental pieces here is really important too. David, what are your top health tips for people? If you could pick a few of your favorites.

Well, pretty much what dawn and yourself already covered, actually. Obviously, as an electrical engineer, I would stress some of those points because, I mean, we live in an electrical age. I mean, we're using electrical things and electronics to be able to talk to one another now across the, across the ocean, as it were. So it's very necessary. But there are certain things that you can do to protect yourself. As I say, because of my training and understanding, I know the dangers of exposure to EMFs. And some people become more sensitive than others, and it can be very detrimental to their way of life. But there are things that people can do, and that is things like with their cell phones, don't hold them next to your head. You know, put them on hands free so you can keep them at least a foot or so away from you. You can have a perfectly good conversation where you're not putting yourself close into the radiation field of the phone if you're able to. Certainly when you go to bed at night, don't have electrical devices in your room, certainly don't take your phone to bed and leave it on the bedside table or anything. Keep everything electrical out of your room. If it's possible to switch off your WI fi hub at night when you're not using it or anytime you're not using it, I know that's not always possible, but if you can do so. So it's little things that you can do, I would certainly recommend as well. I know this happened to me because like many people I had before I realized what was happening. I had cordless telephones in the house until I sort of got myself radio frequency meter to be able to test the strength of radiation given out by various objects. And I found that the power coming out from the base station of cordless telephone was horrendous. And so I got rid of them straight away and just went back to one wired telephone in the house. And rather than all these cordless telephones around, you know, so if anyone wants to have a look at their environment, there's plenty of these little radio frequency meters on the market, particularly in the States, which you can get quite easily. They're not too expensive. And so you can sort of scan your home and just see where and if you have high levels of electromagnetic radiation coming from and then you can do something about it. You know, either keep them away from you, certainly keep them away from your children, make sure that they're not going to bed and that there's some smart meter on the other side of the wall or a WI fi hub or something like that. Because children in particular, particular are very susceptible, particularly their developing brain is very susceptible to electromagnetic radiation.

Yeah, and I've covered that a lot too. I have a whole podcast on building biology that we just released. But yeah, a lot of these cordless wireless transmitting devices, they're some of the biggest issues. It almost annoys people when they come over and visit on my house because I don't have WI fi. So if you come to my house you have to plug in and use a like a metal shielded Ethernet cable to get Internet in any room. And we have no smart appliances, no Bluetooth. And yeah, it's inconvenient. But you know what? The being healthy is quite convenient. And I mean you guys have so many other things. Obviously the book's over 700 pages long. We didn't even scratch the surface. As far as a lot of the super fascinating. I don't want to call them conspiracy theories, but I guess alternative ways to view a Lot of things from spina bifida to autism to cancer to anthrax to syphilis to leprosy. I mean, pretty much everything that humankind has dealt with, you guys discuss in the book in a very unique fashion. And so it's just absolutely fantastic. By the way, did you guys do an audio version of this one?

No. I was gonna say, no, we haven't.

No. It's because it's so big. It's quite a mammoth project to sort of do an audio version.

You can always. You know what? You know, what I would do is find somebody who really wants to learn everything in this book frontwards and backwards. And then, you know, pay them a little bit of money, you know, somebody with a good mic setup and have them record it all for you. And then just submit that to Amazon, ACX or Audible, maybe if somebody's listening in. If you're listening in, you want to read this entire book front to back and get with. With Don and David to maybe record it for him? Leave a comment. I'd do it, but I've got too many other things to say into the microphone these days to record a book. But anyways, the book is called what really Makes yous Ill. Everything that dawn and David and I talked about, you can find@bengreenfieldfitness.com ill. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com ill. The book is worth adding to your library. It might take you a little ways to get through, but, I mean, heck, just read a tiny section a day, and I guarantee that, you know, a couple of months from now, you'll know a lot more about chronic disease on this planet and what we can do about it. And it's so interesting because although the arguments and the history and the controversies are so complex, the solutions are so simple. Eat clean food and water, detox your environment, limit your exposure to emf, and don't live under chronic stress. I just love that you guys boil it down to those four factors. And then, of course, like I mentioned, I would throw in a fifth. Take care of our freaking planet. And so that all being said, Dawn, David, we kind of only scratched the surface as far as everything that I wanted to ask you, but I think that we've given people a lot to chew on in today's show. So thank you.

Well, thank you.

Thank you, Ben, for having us on. And hopefully that's helped clarify a few things for your audience.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right, folks, the book is called what really Makes yous Ill. Why everything youg thought you knew about disease is wrong. The show notes are@BenGreenfieldFitness.com ill. Dawn, David and I are going to sign out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have an amazing week. Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the show notes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful Ben Recommends page which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep digestion, fat loss, performance and plenty more. Please also know that all the links, all the promo codes that I mentioned during this and every episode help to to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the show notes, use the promo codes that I generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.