Why You've Been Lied To About Cancer And What You Can Do About It.

Today's podcast is about cancer. It's going to blow your mind in terms of what you thought you knew about cancer. That could be wrong. It's with the great Dr. David Minkoff. Let's dive in in this episode of the Ben Grief of Fitness Show.

These cancers act the same way. Instead of dying, which they're supposed to, they form a little placenta like unit which becomes a tumor. And most of these are almost all anaerobic. And they produce a lot of lactic acid because the result of anaerobic metabolism, which is fermentation, is lactic acid. Athletes and fit people who are also healthy produce a lot of CO2 with the oxygen that they breathe in. But people who are sick or they're fatigued or they're chronically infected, they don't produce much CO2.

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Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And today I'm back with one of our most popular guests ever. This physician has been on the show in the past to talk about metal detoxification and metal chelation. He's been on to talk about exercise induced asthma, about ketosis. He's come on to talk about essential amino acids versus branched chain amino acids, as well as his own story. Completing 41 Ironman triathlons over the course of the past several decades. And also to talk about the anti aging clinic that he runs down in Florida called LifeWorks Wellness Center. My guest today, if you haven't guessed it yet, is the one and only Dr. David Minkoff. David, welcome back to the show, man.

Hey, thanks, Ben. It's great to talk to you.

Well, we were having a chat before the show about how much you kind of delve into in the anti aging sector this topic of cancer. And honestly, we've talked about cancer a little bit on the show. I'll be honest with you. It's a topic that I don't, I don't talk about too much because it seems to be kind of controversial, especially when we're talking about, like, alternative treatments for cancer and things along those lines. But we had one podcast that we did a while back with a guy I met in Northern Galilee when I was doing a tour of Israel. And we talked about a lot of, like, the psychological and the mental precursors that could set someone up for cancer. That one was called why youy Get Cancer and what yout Can Do About It. And if you're listening in right now, I'll put a link to that in the show. Notes to this podcast, which you can grab over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com CancerPodcast that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com cancerpodcast But David, you were telling me before we started recording about this fascinating story from Chernobyl that has to do with kind of like some of your theories on cancer and treating cancer. So can you go into that story? Because I thought it was just crazy.

Yeah, it's very interesting. However, many years ago, maybe 15 years ago, when the Chernobyl nuclear power plant blew up, they basically sort of filled it in with cement. And now nobody can go close to that place because it's so hot radioactively. But nature has its sort of ways of dealing with things. And the voles that voles are little rodent type insects and the voles that were in the area have acclimated to the high radiation and they're completely radioactive themselves. But their populations are thriving. They mate, they have babies, they. And there's, and their numbers are increasing and. But if you put them in, is.

That not what you'd expect? Like normally you'd expect them just be dying from having been exposed to the radiation in Chernobyl?

Yeah, I mean, with chromosomal defects and not being able to reproduce and all, you know, all kinds of things that would, you know, like if you look at the aftermath of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the leukemias and lymphomas and scattered cancers and sterility that occurs, it was very high because these people got radiation poisoned. And what's happened with this vole population is they have been able to adapt somehow or, or somehow where they are thriving as a group and there's wolves in the area that, their main food is these voles. And these, these wolves are eating the voles and, and they're radioactive too. But their, their systems have adapted to this high level of radiation and they're still alive. In fact, they're thriving. And I heard this story this weekend from another doctor in Virginia who deals with cancer. And the point of it kind of was, is that if your system can continue to produce the things that it needs to survive, which is basically ATP, it's energy that then the body can detoxify, keep its communication system in, keep things going. But if the environment puts forces onto the body where that can't happen, where the mitochondria, the things inside the cells that are supposed to make energy, can't do it, then you get sick. And one of the consequences of being sick might be fatigue, but another consequence is you get cancer.

Okay, so what you're saying is these voles that are around Chernobyl, and they're basically like. Like tiny, tiny little mice. Right?

Right.

Okay, so. So these voles basically should have an inability to create ATP based on. On DNA defects from exposure to radiation around the Chernobyl zone. And they're not showing that.

Right. They're showing that their population that, like, they're a thriving population, that you'd think that they would have died out and they'd be done.

But I don't know, like. Like, just playing devil's advocate, I would think that maybe they could keep reproducing, but they'd have a bunch of defects, like. Like a bunch of random.

Well, they might. And I don't know how many random mutations they have. The sort of point of it was, is that they have adapted enough that the numbers of them are really increasing and that they've been able to adapt to this environment so that they can keep their species going.

Okay, so what does this have to do then with your theory about why, like, a vole, for example, that would get exposed to huge amounts of radiation wouldn't get cancer?

Well, I think what's happened is that the voles, the biochemistry has been able to adapt, or within the vole, the biochemistry has adapted so that it can continue to produce energy, so that its cells can work, and so that even in the face of this radiation and how it deals with this radioactivity, I don't even know, but that it can thrive as a species. And I think the point of the story is that the problem that's happening with humans now is that with epidemic rates of cancer and other diseases where there's not enough energy from Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or autism or chronic fatigue, or most of these people with Lyme disease is their bodies, as a consequence of whatever the infections and toxic insults is, they can't make energy, they can't make ATP. And when you can't make ATP, then you can't do it. You know, your cells don't work.

See, I thought. And again, like, I'm not trying to Disagree with you too much. But at the same time, I just read this book called Tripping over the Truth. It's about the metabolic theory of cancer. And it's the idea that cancer cells in the presence of oxygen basically overproduce lactic acid. Like, it's this idea called the Warburg effect, that a cancer cell that should be operating like aerobically begins to operate anaerobically and that generates a bunch of lactic acid, which is like a toxic byproduct and generates like enormous, enormous amounts of fermentation and ATP. Like overgrowth. Not, not, I guess, what it, what it sounds like you might be proposing, which would be undergrowth. Like, are you familiar with this metabolic theory of cancer, or do you have any opinion on it?

Yeah, no, I'm very familiar with it. But I think the way it goes is this and that. Here's what happens. Within our bodies, there's two kinds of cells. There's regular cells and there are stem cells. So within each tissue, these stem cells are responsible for keeping the organ or tissue with enough of its kind. And they're the ones that actually can reproduce. Now, if these stem cells are stressed with not enough oxygen, or if they have enough oxygen, but they can't utilize the oxygen because their mitochondria are broken. They're broken because of chemicals and pesticides and fluorides and heavy metals and all these things that are in our roundup and all these things that are in our environment that are toxic, those toxins get into the mitochondria, those mitochondria in order to make ATP. Normally they take a sugar molecule or a fat molecule or a broken down protein molecule, plus oxygen, and they make ATP. And with each cycle it's somewhere 36 to 38 ATP and their waste product is water and carbon dioxide.

So that would be like what you just described, the aerobic metabolism, like what we should be doing most of the day in the mitochondria, just basically breathing in oxygen and essentially producing lots of ATP efficiently without a lot of lactic acid being produced as a byproduct.

Well, yeah, with really no lactic acid produced. Because the byproduct of this is water, which you pee out, and carbon dioxide, which you breathe out. So there's no acid gain there. But when the mitochondria can't work. So let's assume the guy can breathe and his lungs work and he's got enough hemoglobin and he can get oxygen to his cells, but the cell itself can't take that oxygen. And utilize it in the mitochondria to make ATP. Then that cell is supposed to die, it's supposed to self destruct. And they don't always do that. And so the cell as it survives, this is the stem cells now within the tissues. And, and the stem cells within the tissues have sort of, they revert to a primitive kind of metabolism which is anaerobic. Instead of using oxygen, they use sugar and they make ATP. But they only make a couple ATP with every cycle rather than 38. And it's too little. And they have to turn on mechanisms which are exactly the same as what happens when a sperm and an egg meet and it forms this thing called a trophoblast. A trophoblast is like an offshoot from a sperm and an egg union. This trophoblast implants into the placenta, it sends out hormone like particles to get blood vessels to go in and to start replicating in an anaerobic way. And this is cancer and pregnancy are just about identical. It coats the, it coats the fetus so that the body doesn't see it, it's not rejected, and it grows. And these cancers act the same way. Instead of dying, which they're supposed to, they form a little placental like unit which becomes a tumor. And most of these are almost all anaerobic and they produce a lot of lactic acid because the result of anaerobic metabolism, which is fermentation, is lactic acid. And when you have this acidic area around it and a coat around it so the body can't really see it, that's where you get a tumor. And you can pump oxygen in there all you want, but this cell really can't use it very well. So it isn't the, it's the lack of oxygen that triggers it rather than the high amounts of oxygen.

Okay, so basically what this comes down to is if you somehow have dysfunctional mitochondria, or this big radical reduction of the amount of mitochondria in your body, where you've got say, an unhealthy mitochondrial membrane, and you have perhaps some kind of genetic predisposition to some certain types of cancer, because I know that you can, for example, be holding the dynamite, so to speak, but it doesn't necessarily go off unless you light it with a match that you might have. In the other hand, that would be a situation in which you would have a cell that begins to flip out, produce a huge amount of lactic acid instead of, say, water and ATP. And, and that's where you Begin to get tumor formation with that combination of genetic predisposition and mitochondrial dysfunction.

That's right. And again, there's sort of genetic backgrounds for all this, but most of cancer isn't genetic. Most of, you know, there's been experiments done where you take a healthy cell and you take a cancer cell, and they can take the. Because the whole theory on cancer has been it's genetic damage, it's genetic defect.

Well, yeah, I mean, that's like the whole idea. If you look at. If you look at Watson, who discovered the structure of DNA, I think that after he discovered the structure of DNA, a lot of people in cancer research, if I understand correctly, they started to go after how to target mutations within the DNA code, more or less. So, I mean, isn't that what. What chemotherapy and cancer drugs are doing, Going after mutations within the DNA? Or at least that's what cancer research is looking at, or at least looking at that as the underlying cause of cancer, rather than this metabolic theory?

Well, mostly chemotherapy gives particles that look like what the DNA should use to replicate, and it doesn't work. They're sort of pseudo nucleic acids that break the replication of the DNA. But if I just take a step back for a second. If you take healthy cells and you take a cancer cell, and you take the nucleus, which is the DNA, out of that cancer cell, and you transplant it into the healthy cell, you don't get a cancer cell. It doesn't really work. It's not really.

Is that because of the healthy cell that you just put the nucleus from the cancer cell into that healthy cell, still has just fine mitochondria, adequately functioning mitochondria.

It doesn't cause cancer. So the idea that this is all DNA driven or driven doesn't really work out. It's really mitochondria. Now, mitochondria have their own DNA. They replicate themselves. But cancer isn't from a damaged DNA. I mean, this is probably not universal. But most of the time, when you do these experiments, putting a cancer cell nucleus or DNA into a healthy cell, you don't get a cancer cell. It doesn't go that way. And so the same thing, if you take a cancer cell and you take a healthy nucleus and transplant it into a cancer cell, the cancer cell doesn't change back to normal.

Right, right. Which makes sense because the cancer cell still has broken mitochondria or a dysfunctional mitochondria. So it's still going to begin to produce a bunch of lactic acid anaerobically.

That's right. It's got dysfunctional mitochondria, it's a dysfunctional energy production systems.

Okay.

And its whole effort, cancer is like a survival mechanism for a cell that can't generate enough energy to really live.

Right. So it just has to generate a bunch of ATP, or at least as much as it can by using anaerobic metabolism. By producing a bunch of potentially toxic lactic acid in the process of producing that ATP.

That's right.

Okay, so I want to ask you about this in a second about what you can do about the mitochondria. Because obviously if it's a mitochondrial metabolic issue when it comes to cancer, you would want to address dysfunctional mitochondria rather than necessarily going full bore after just say genetics or chemo. But before that, in terms of modern medicine, why the heck are they so focused on the DNA component of cancer or the genetic component on cancer and on chemotherapy and on doing things to the nucleus of the cell rather than addressing the mitochondrial issues?

Well, most of research is driven by, you know, is driven by, you know, how can, how can profit be generated from this? And I'm not against a profit motive, but since 1972 or 74, when Nixon declared the war on cancer, the gains in actual results of people who have cancer are really very little. There's a study published in the Journal of cancer in 2002 or 2003 where they looked at patients that had stage four cancer. And this study was done in Australia and in the United States, and half of them got chemotherapy for their problem and the other half didn't. And the difference in lifespan that the chemotherapy made over a five year period was only about a two and a half percent increase in survival. That targeting chemotherapy as your sole way to kill cancer cells or cure cancer doesn't really work very well. And so the statistics on survival with cancer have not really been affected by it. So that doesn't work by itself. And if you talk to most oncologists, they don't really have a mindset of, gee, maybe environment matters, maybe diet matters, maybe supplementation matters, maybe other strategies to rehabilitate mitochondria matters. The mindset pretty much is do whatever you want, eat whatever you want, do the chemotherapy, keep your fingers crossed and hope it works out. But it's a rough go. It doesn't mean that there aren't some successes. And sometimes there are. And there are some cancers where when chemotherapy is given, the survival rates are good, but they're few with testicular cancer or some of the lymphomas the results are better than what anybody else is doing. But in the.

Oh, go ahead.

No, but in the big cancers, colon, breast, prostate, lung, these are the ones that are the most common. That the usual approach when chemotherapy is given, which is the tumor is past a stage one. It's outside that the survival rates aren't. They're terrible. And so that, as a strategy, has not really worked out very well.

So why is it that lactic acid would be such a big issue if we're talking about a cancer cell churning out a bunch of lactic acid? And the reason I ask is because I know that you like exercise. You could, say, done 41 Ironman triathlons. And, you know, earlier this morning, I was doing kettlebell swings, and I was doing sledgehammer slams against a big tire, and I was doing the battle rope, and I was doing this anaerobically. So I. My cells were producing tons of lactic acid. So what's the difference between that type of lactic acid that I'm producing with anaerobic metabolism from exercise and the overproduction of lactic acid from cancer cells? Like, why can't the body just get rid of or convert that lactic acid into glucose or whatever it usually does with the lactic acid we would make during exercise?

Well, because your system, you know, when you produce lactic acid, you stimulate a healthy system to be able to metabolize it faster so that your lactic acid levels either clear very fast or you can tolerate a lot of them. I know some studies that were done on Lance Armstrong. They had trouble getting his body to produce enough lactic acid so that he got the normal fatigue that a regular guy would get because his clearance mechanisms for it were very, very efficient. But that depends on ATP. If you. We do a. What's called bioenergy testing on every patient that we see in our office, which is. They come in and they come in fasting, they lay on a bed. They're not supposed to have exercised or done any kind of real activity, and they haven't eaten. And we lay them on a bed and we put a mask on them, which measures how much oxygen they breathe in and how much CO2 they breathe out. And there is a linear relationship between oxygen in and CO2 out. If ATP is produced, it's one for one. So you can measure in someone who's not making ATP very well. They will breathe in a lot of oxygen, but the amount of carbon dioxide that they make is very low because they're not converting their oxygen properly to CO2. They're converting it to lactic acid. And when you look at this, it's very interesting because you can dial someone in right away of how efficient or how well is their aerobic system. Working athletes and fit people who are also healthy produce a lot of CO2 with the oxygen that they breathe in. But people who are sick or they're fatigued or they're chronically infected, they don't produce much CO2, and so their tolerance for activity is low. And what's interesting about this is that a lot of the people that we see, they're anaerobic. At rest, when they say, I can't get up to the kitchen and go pour myself a glass of water or walk to the bathroom, they're not kidding. They're basically anaerobes because the system is so broken that they can't make oxygen, and so they can't do very much.

So when we're talking about the body being in an acidic version versus an alkaline state, I know that some blood tests, you know, if you get a Wellness FX blood test, for example, it will show you how much carbon dioxide, how much CO2, or how much chloride that you have. Now, are you saying that if you were to get a blood test like that and you were to show, say, very, very low amounts of CO2, that that would indicate you were spending too much time in a potentially acidic anaerobic state? Or is blood not a good marker for that?

Blood's not a very good marker because the body controls that so well. So that person would just breathe faster, they'd breathe off, you know, if they could buffer, you know, if their buffers are working, if their nutrition is good and they've got bicarbonates and phosphates and proteins, they could buffer it. The best way to do it is this testing where you basically, you either lay them down, if they can't do anything, you know where they are, or if you exercise them, you see that they can't hardly do anything because it's very sensitive to this because it directly measures. Can the guy produce ATP when he's given oxygen? And if he can, what kind of.

Testing did you call that? Bioenergy.

Bioenergy testing. If you look, there's a really good book by Frank Shallenberger called bioenergy, Bioenergy something or other.

I'll find it and I'll put it in the show notes over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com cancerpodcast Frank Shallenberger, you said.

Is his name Frank Shallenberger? He's a Medical doctor in Carson City, Nevada. He's very innovative in this and he actually sort of manufactures software and there's a device that goes with it so that you can put it in your office.

Okay. Yeah. I actually see he's got a book called Bursting with Energy, Breakthrough Method to Renew Youthful Energy to Restore Health. At least that's one book that he has on Amazon. I don't know, is that the one or is it a different one?

That's the book, and it basically explains this. And it's interesting because his experience over doing this with 15, over 15 years, with thousands of patients, is that if the person is in the state healthy enough so that they can take in oxygen and manufacture CO2, and there's sort of numbers of like, you know, Are you at 100%? Are you at 110%? Are you at 30%? That the people who have been at 100% or more who were able to do this, he never saw in them a heart attack, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, cancer, chronic illness. Because their mitochondria, for whatever reason, their lifestyle, their therapies, whatever it is, that their mitochondria are working and they're able to make ATP and they're able to deal with the environment. And I think this is what's going on with the voles, that they are able to keep up with their environment, because whatever happened in them is that their body can make ATP. And if you can do that, you can stay healthy and you don't get chronic problems.

Right. The voles were still able to produce ATP aerobically somehow. That's right, yeah. Okay. And I want to ask you still more. I keep saying I'm going to get to this eventually, and I will ask you about the mitochondria and how we can basically take care of our mitochondria. But one thing I wanted to ask you about was. It was a little while ago that I read this book. It was called Tripping over the Truth, which goes into this metabolic theory of cancer that we're talking about right now. And it goes into it in really great detail. And in that book, they talk about a medical treatment and how at one point they figured out that you can. I think the way they explained it was that you can somehow take all this lactic acid that a cancer cell is overproducing because that cancer cell has mitochondrial dysfunction. And you can use a special molecule. The molecule was bromoparabate or BP3BP or something like that. And this molecule, you could use it because it looks a Little bit like lactic acid, and it would slip into the same pore on the cell that would normally allow lactic acid to get out of a cancer cell. And instead all the lactic acid stays inside the cancer cell. And the cancer cell just basically destroys itself. It just self destructs because it's got all this acidic lactic acid building up. And the idea was that this 3bp stuff was working better than chemotherapy drugs. Have you ever heard of the 3 bp molecule or why medicine isn't using something like that to control cancer?

I don't. So I'll have to look at that because it's not. I actually haven't heard that before. So.

Okay, gotcha.

I'll check it out.

I think it was a while ago I read the book, but if I remember correctly, it was basically an issue with the patentability of this stuff not being very profitable compared to the amount of money being poured into chemotherapy research and the whole DNA genetic theory of cancer. I think a lot of it came down to patents and money. But I'll put a link to the book in the show notes for the people who want to read this book. Tripping over the truth. It does relate though, to the next question I wanted to ask you about mitochondria, because one of the ways that the blocking of lactic acid from getting out of the cell actually works is kind of similar to what happens when you shift from, say, glucose metabolism to the metabolism something that doesn't produce as much lactic acid, like ketones. So you force a cancer cell to have to burn ketones. And if a cancer cell doesn't have very good mitochondria or doesn't have much mitochondria, it can't go into ketosis very well. So that would put it into a lot of energetic pressure. It would put it under a lot of oxidative stress. So basically, by depriving a cancer cell of glucose and instead forcing the cell to burn ketones, you could do something very similar to what say, like that lactic acid blocking drug they were trying to develop could do. And so I guess that's the first question I have for you about the mitochondria. Is it as simple as going into nutritional ketosis or limiting the amount of blood glucose in terms of that being an effective way to go after cancer cells?

Well, we think so. We put all our patients that have cancer on a ketogenic diet and sometimes they can't do it because they're so wasted by the time we get them that they can't hold weight on a ketogenic diet, but the ones that are able to do it, the research seems to point that it at least stresses cancer cells because many times they really need sugar in order to manufacture energy. And if you reduce the amount of carbohydrates that are coming in to these patients, that the tumor cell goes under some stress. We know that if you just try to kill them off, like ramp the dose of chemotherapy up and try to kill them off, that that strategy doesn't work because the chemotherapy actually doesn't kill the cancer stem cells. It kills the other cells, the daughter cells, but the stem cells, it doesn't kill. So you're still faced with the stem cells. And if you ramp up chemotherapy too high, you have no immune system, so you're not going to survive that.

So I have a question too, about this ketogenic thing, because it makes sense, right? If you. If you would deprive a cancer cell of glucose and the cancer cell has an inability to burn ketones because it has dysfunctional mitochondria, then the cancer cell could die. But would that be the case with all forms of cancer? And the reason I ask this is because I was talking to one guy Yesterday, I'm in LA right now. I was on the Dr. Drew podcast, and Dr. Drew was talking about prostate cancer, and I mentioned a high fat diet. And I believe he said that prostate cancer was one form of cancer that perhaps would not respond to glucose deprivation or to like a ketogenic protocol. So do you know if it matters on the type of cancer or is all cancer basically a metabolic issue and it doesn't matter?

I think to some extent it's a metabolic issue. But, you know, in the animal studies that are done down here in Tampa, USF with Dom d', Agostino, when they transplant rats with tumors and they put the rats on a ketogenic diet, the tumors shrink. It's not that simple in humans. So I think that as a strategy, as part of a strategy for. To help someone with cancer, that a ketogenic diet is worth trying. You know, limiting carbohydrates and sugars and getting your, you know, getting your blood ketones in the 3 to 5 range, that, that's a. That that is a helpful thing. And that if the. But you have to do other things at the same time, because most of the time, for most people's cancer, doing that alone isn't enough. You know, these cancers are very. They want to survive in a bad way, and they have a huge amount of adaptability. So it's not a one thing will work. And I think part of the problem with this three bromopyrene, whatever is that it's like everything else. In some people it works and in a lot of people it doesn't. And that you have to do a lot more things. Because cancer is a metabolic disease, it affects the body all over the place. The cancer cells or the cancer cell line that went bad is the one that was sort of the canary in the coal mine and it went bad first. But generally these people have a whole body problem with it and that's why they're acidic and that's why they have lactic acidosis.

So essentially, if we're talking about a cancer cell, that would be a cancer cell that relies primarily upon the metabolism of glucose, that would be a form of cancer that could effectively be targeted with something like a low carb ketogenic approach. And I would be curious the way if anybody's listening in, if you know of certain types of cancer that don't metabolize glucose or cancer cells that, that don't respond well to glucose restriction, add it in the comments. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com cancer podcast because I'd be curious if there are forms of cancer that have been shown not to respond well to say, glucose restricted diet or glucose deprivation. So leave that in the comments section because I'm personally curious and haven't had a chance to do a bunch of research on it. But I wanted to ask you about proteins too, Dr. Minkoff, because there's this idea that there's a pathway, the MTOR pathway, the mammalian target of rapamycin pathway, that's this pro growth pathway that if out of control, can put one's body into a constantly anabolic state. And that can happen from excessive protein intake, for example, or excessive feeding with proteins that activates the MTOR pathway and could potentially cause cells that are cancer cells that respond to this constant state of anabolism to grow. So you could trigger cancer growth with excessive protein intake or you could limit the risk of getting cancer with protein restriction. So do you think that similar to glucose restriction, that protein restriction is also important?

Well, if you're putting someone on a strict ketogenic diet, they're going to be like the traditional, the guy who's sort of the master, this guy named Dr. Seyfried who wrote Cancer as a metabolic disease, that the diet that he suggests is 80% of the calories are coming from fats and less than 12 grams.

A day of carbohydrates yeah, 80% or up. That's like a hardcore ketogenic diet.

This is a hardcore ketogenic diet.

We're not talking about a high fat diet. We're talking about full on strict ketosis.

Right? So it's real ketosis. It restricts people to 1200 calories a day. And the amounts of proteins that they get aren't actually enough protein, I feel, to nourish the body. So, you know, we use products like your nature aminos because these things are utilized as protein. The body doesn't turn them into sugar because most of the, most of the meat, egg, fish, soy, brown rice proteins, more than 50% of the best ones are turned into carbohydrate by the body. That's just part of the natural metabolism.

Now, can you explain this in a little more detail? Because I tell people that, and this is something that I'll use, like when I do a 24 hour fast and I've had clients do even week long water fast, we use things like minerals and a multivitamin and also essential amino acids like the nature aminos that you talked about. And by the way, just so everybody listening in knows, Dr. Minkoff developed these essential amino acids. And for full disclosure, I actually@GreenfieldFitnessSystems.com, i sell these amino acids called nature aminos, just because it's such a staple for me and my clients, I have them available over there. But basically what I'm curious about is when it comes to these aminos, I think a lot of people, including myself, still have a hard time wrapping our heads around this. When you take something like whey protein isolate or steak in terms of its ability to cause an insulin release or to activate this MTOR pathway, or to become gluconeogenesis or gluconeogenic and make a bunch of insulin or glucose, what is it about the protein source? What is it about amino acids or essential amino acids that makes them any different than say eating a steak or taking in some whey protein isolate? What is it about the amino acids that keeps you in more of like a fasting simulated state while still giving you protein?

Well, see, the thing that matters is proteins are made up of amino acids and like a, like a muscle protein.1 muscle protein fiber has a link of about, I think it's 455amino acids. There's 22 of them that are used. So the Alphabet is 22amino acids. Amino acids put together in different patterns and different, different sequences then give you protein. So insulin I think is like 69amino acids, certain amino acids in a certain order. Growth hormone is, I think, 89, and muscle proteins like 455. So it's sort of like we're playing Scrabble and the dot. The tiles aren't ABC A through Z. The tiles are 22amino acids. And then the body, depending on what it does, puts them together in different ways, and then those come into the cell. And it's kind of like this. The perfect analogy is, let's say we're going to build a car. And the car needs a chassis and a motor and a steering wheel and four wheels, like the simplest, simplest car. So if I shipped you 100 wheels and 25 chassis and 25 steering wheels and 25 motors, you would utilize all the parts to make 25 cars and there wouldn't be anything left over. So that would be the ideal thing if you were going to make a protein. If you had amino acids that were the ones that ideally would make every protein, then there would be nothing left. Because what happens in the body is. Here's the other part of this analogy. What if I told you we were going to make 25 cars, but I sent you 25 steering wheels and 25 chassis and 25 motors, and I sent you 400 wheels? Well, you'd have 300 wheels left over. Now, those wheels, the body doesn't store. It doesn't keep them around. It takes them and makes them into sugar.

And what would be an example, just for the propeller hats out there, like when you're saying wheels, give me an example in a car, like, what would be the actual chemical in the human body? What would be the molecule in the human body that would be an example of a leftover wheel or leftover wheels that you'd get from, say, whey protein powder versus essential amino acids?

Well, let's say, let's just take whey protein or whey protein, whey protein or whey protein isolate or cottage cheese or yogurt. Any dairy protein that. The dairy protein that if you were going to say we want to make, there's about 16 grams. Let's say we're going to take 100 grams of dairy protein and we're going to feed it to a guy all day long. And we're not going to give him any other protein. He's either water fasting or he's eating salad, vegetables or fruits which have negligible amounts of protein. We give him 100 grams of whey protein. And in 100 grams of whey protein, there is roughly 16 grams of nitrogen, because proteins have nitrogen and carbohydrates and fats don't. We could get an idea of, okay, we drop off at the lot where the cars are being made, 100 grams of whey protein. And then most of the protein, the nitrogen that doesn't get incorporated into the body protein, it gets peed out. That's why we pee mostly. So we collect as urine for the day, or we do it for three days and we get a total of this many grams of nitrogen went in. So for every 100 grams, we got 16. And then we collect the urine and we say how many grams of nitrogen came out? Because if it came out, it didn't get made into muscle, bone, hair, liver enzymes, whatever. And with whey protein, 84% of the nitrogen comes out. It doesn't stay in because it isn't utilized as body protein. It gets made into sugar and then it's either burned or it's stored as glycogen, or it's stored as fat.

Okay, so we're just essentially talking about gluconeogenesis from nitrogenous byproducts of whey protein or any other thing, like excessive steak or something like that, because of the amount of the protein or cottage cheese or whatever food protein source that doesn't get utilized.

That's right.

And that doesn't make those bad foods. I mean, I personally really liked steak and protein powder, and that's one of my staples every week is a good French cut rib eye steak. But what you're saying is that you're trying to engage in something like calorie restriction, or if you're trying to get the most out of a protein as possible, with the least number of calories, the most nutritional density out of a protein, the least insulin or glucose release from a protein, you could just go straight to better living through science and use something like essential amino acids or powders or capsules or something like that.

Right. And like dairy protein, which isn't very. It isn't very well utilized, but it's very insulin genic. Those glucose molecules that come up once the nitrogen comes off, those glucose molecules stimulate insulin. Insulin is a growth hormone. And in these cancer patients, we don't want those kind of growth hormones. We want their insulin levels low, we want their sugar low.

Right. So if you were going to do a ketogenic diet for someone with cancer kind of returning back to cancer, you actually wouldn't include a lot of higher fat dairy products. You'd be including more like avocado oil and coconut oil. And medium chain triglycerides and things like that.

Or heavy cream. Heavy cream or butter, because there's no protein in there. It's all fat. And so it's a neutral effect on insulin. And a neutral effect on sugar.

Is heavy cream not insulinogenic?

Yeah, it's hardly. Probably not insulin genic at all. The old Stillman diet was a pint of heavy cream every day. And most people couldn't even drink the whole thing because they were. They would just pour. The weight would pour off of them because they didn't. They weren't hungry and they had so much fat in their stomach. They were satisfied and their blood sugars were low and they just. They never stimulated insulin and they burned. They just had to burn their own body fat out.

Okay, so, by the way, before we get back to a few other questions I have about mitochondria, just real quick, when it comes to heavy cream, what do you look for to make sure you're not getting exposed to growth hormones and other byproducts of the commercial modern dairy industry?

Well, it's tough. I mean, you try to go as organic and as local as you can. But honestly, there's the. I just heard this statistic this weekend, too, is that three quarters of the rainwater has measurable amounts of Roundup in it. The planet is so saturated with these chemicals, these chemical fertilizers and like Roundup, which is dreadful poison, that there's no escaping it. There's no butter that's pure. There's no meat that's pure. There's no beans that are pure.

I don't know, man. I have goats. I think they're pretty pure. The goats in my backyard.

Well, they might be pure, but what they're eating isn't pure. And then they're not pure.

Yeah, that's true. We do get some of alfalfa and some of their oats from the feed store, I will admit, so. Yeah, you're right.

Yeah. Listen to this. I had a patient who was mercury toxic, and he is a. He was a nuclear physicist, and he worked actually for the government developing missile systems.

Okay.

And he was a brain guy. He's at mit, like us, like a super brainiac type guy. And he got mercury toxic, and he was. He could. He was losing his memory, and he was like, really, like, was making him crazy. And he ended up coming down here and became a patient of mine, and we cleared his mercury toxicity, and he got to be completely normal. He got his brain back and decided that this area was a fascinating area. Of research for him. And he wanted to make a contribution because he had suffered from this and he wanted to see if he could help other people. So he went and bought a mercury vapor analyzer. This is what the EPA uses if somebody to like check toxic waste sites or if somebody drops a thermometer in a public setting to make sure that there's no mercury vapor anywhere or the levels are low enough. So he got this mercury vapor meter and he started checking people. He says, open your mouth. You have a mouth full of mercury fillings. Open your mouth, stick the little probe in there. And they hold their breath. And the ambient mercury coming off their fillings would be registered by the vapor meter. And the EPA's limit, I think, was 10 parts per million as safe. And most of these people had 60, 100, 200 parts per million mercury vapor coming right out of their mouth or right out of their lungs. So then he started to check foods and he bought organic broccoli, you know, foods that might accumulate mercury because they have a lot of sulfur, these cruciferous type vegetables. So he took broccoli.

Is that the deal? Like sulfurous vegetables accumulate mercury?

They accumulate because mercury binds sulfur really well. So he took organic broccoli and he put it in a covered pot and he would gently heat it up so that the broccoli would start to cook. And then he sticks his vapor meter inside of it to measure. He did broccoli, onions, kale. The mercury levels were very high, even in organic, because they take it in from the soil, they take it in from the atmosphere. It's all over the place. And when you eat it, you get it, and they're just. Are you going to not eat those? No, you're going to eat them again. If you have a decent detox system, decent mitochondria that can make energy and enough varieties of foods and supplements so that your body can handle it, you can deal with it, but if you don't, then it's going to get you and you're going to get sick.

Yeah, it makes sense. By the way, if you're listening in right now and you don't know much about mercury toxicity or metal toxicity, we did a whole hour long podcast On it with Dr. Minkoff, and in my opinion, everybody should listen to it. Dr. Minkoff actually makes this metal detox, like this metal chelation spray that I personally use every single year. I do a 30 day full on protocol with this stuff because I know that we're surrounded by brake dust and Chinese toys and car keys and everything. Else that leeches metals into our bodies. But we kind of got away from cancer there for a little bit. Dr. Minkoff, so back to mitochondria. You talked about ketosis and how adopting like a higher fat, somewhat protein restricted diet with some intermittent fasting, some caloric restriction, that could be one way to treat cancer, if cancer is indeed a metabolic disease. But I had some other questions for you about mitochondria. So one thing I've heard is the use of hyperbaric oxygen, like to enhance mitochondrial efficiency or to enhance mitochondrial health. Is that something that you would consider to be an effective therapy?

In some people, it's a very effective therapy and it can help them because sometimes if you supersaturate their blood with oxygen by breathing hyperbaric oxygen, you know, 100% oxygen under pressure, you can actually force more oxygen into the mitochondria and that the mitochondria will then sort of be pushed to make more CO2 and more ATP. And sometimes that works very well and can be very helpful. So that is a potential strategy. We know if you drink.

So do you have hyperbaric oxygen at your clinic in Florida?

We don't, because we're doing so many other things. We're using oxygen systemically in the form of ozone. So we give intravenous ozone, which is oxygen. It's O3, really. And it's a similar type of thing. You supersaturate their system with oxygen and we have them drinking water that's saturated with oxygen.

I was going to ask you about that because I actually got to mess around with seeing whether it would affect my breath hold time or an indirect indicator of my mitochondrial performance. And I got one of these countertop water ozonators. Do you use something like that in your clinic? Like one of these ozonators that you can put into a glass of water to introduce ozone to water, to get a similar effect to hyperbaric oxygen.

Yeah, I mean, but we do it, we put it in different orifices depending on where the problem is. But mostly we put it in blood. So the ozone interacts directly with the blood. So you take vein blood out and it's dark because it's desaturated. It doesn't have oxygen in it. And then if you add ozone to that blood, the blood turns bright red. It's like supersaturates it with oxygen, and then you can put it back into the patient and it has effects similar to what hyperbaric oxygen would be, which is to add oxygen to the system and to either get Cells that are asleep or they're low and they can still use some oxygen. If you put there in higher concentrations, it will give you a beneficial effect.

Yeah, but a lot of people don't have the ability to ozonate their blood. They'll just drink ozonated water or do literally like ozonated water enemas, right?

Yes. I'm not sure. I don't know what the effect of that. You know, how much of an effect on that you'll get. I don't think it's bad. I think you just have to test it on each patient.

Yeah, I mean, when I drink ozonated water, at least so far, my experience with it is it's like a shot of coffee. I mean, you actually get this huge release of energy. But I've only been using it for maybe three weeks, so I'm eventually going to talk about it a little bit more in a podcast. But it's interesting that it could also be potentially used to enhance mitochondrial health for something like cancer. What else in addition to ketogenic diets, something like hyperbaric oxygen therapy or concentrated oxygen or water ozonation or blood ozonation. What are some other therapies or things that people can do to help out with cancer or to keep themselves from getting cancer by enhancing their mitochondrial function?

Well, just one more on the oxygen thing. This water called Kakun K A Q U N is a water that actually has liquid oxygen saturated in it. And if you drink the water, it will make your oxygen levels go up. And you can measure it on a skin probe. You can measure that this concentration of oxygen in your skin will go up somewhere between 10 and 15%. And I'd love you to try doing the Cocoon water for a few days and seeing what effect if it has an effect on your breath holding because.

Is that like Asea water?

No, Asea is more like a chlorinated water that produces a. It's not oxygen. This is. This is actually water that if you stick a probe in it. You know, there's a lot of waters on the market that say oxygen water, but if you stick an oxygen sensor in them, there's no oxygen in that water or there's a normal amount. This water called Cocoon, if you stick a probe in it, the probe starts to measure the oxygen concentration. I think it's 164 millimeters of oxygen per mil. I mean, it's real oxygen is in that. And if you take the COVID off, it doesn't blow off. This oxygen is in a liquid form. And when you drink it, within about six to eight minutes, your oxygen level in your blood and in your tissues goes up. In fact, there are some baths in Bulgaria where this is used as a treatment for chronic illness and cancer. And they put very high concentrations of this water in a bath. And the person sits in the bathroom. And there's a patient of mine that I sent there who had a head and neck tumor and a very bad rash on her face. And so they had her submerged herself in the water and used a snorkel so that her head can be underwater for like 50 minutes. The treatments are 50 minutes, three times a day in this supersaturated oxygen water. She got so much oxygen from her skin through into her tissues that she was only breathing two or three times a minute because she didn't have to, because her whole body had oxygen coming in through her skin from the water itself.

So this cocoon. You say cocoon or kakun. How do you spell that?

Kakun.

K, A, Q, U, N. How do they actually get oxygen into this stuff?

It's some secret process where they're able to capture oxygen when it's O2 and O3 is a gas, but when oxygen is clustered like O16,32,64, it's a liquid and they have some secret process where they can make oxygen clusters and it's stable then in regular water and you can drink it.

Interesting. I'll look into it. I'll put a link in the show notes. If I find anything or if anybody listening knows much about this water, let me know. I mean, I'll admit I always raise an eyebrow when I hear words like secret and proprietary.

But if you go to bodyhealth.com there's a whole, much, whole bunch of information because we use this as patients. We actually import this from Budapest so that people can take it if they want to.

Okay, and what do you think about Garestin therapy? Because a lot of people will do juicing and enemas and this entire Gherson therapy. And frankly, in some cases I've seen protocols where they're essentially mainlining via juicing things like fructose and glucose into the bloodstream, which to me seems to fly in the face of healing cancer, if cancer is indeed a metabolic disease in which we'd want to restrict glucose, as we've been talking about. So what are your thoughts on Gersten therapy?

Well, I think when Gerson. When Gerson first introduced his therapy, that he was definitely getting results and he was doing really good work. Cancer is Evolving. Cancer is not the same disease as it was 20, 30 years ago. It's way worse. It's more aggressive. It's more difficult to handle.

Just a second. I want to interrupt you. What do you mean it's worse than it was 50 years ago?

Well, that they're more aggressive. You can't treat it like you used to. The results used to be better with simpler things.

So is that because of genetic mutations and the genes becoming less responsive to treatments or.

Well, I think it's part of that, and it's partly that the bodies are so toxic because the environment is so toxic.

Okay, okay. So you're talking about post industrialization things like air and water and light and electricity, all of that stuff becoming more and more artificial and unnatural. And so as we. As we have been in this post industrialized era, our mitochondria, and from my understanding, based on epigenetics, even our children's mitochondria would be becoming less dense or more weak. And so cancers would be better able to. If there is a genetic predisposition in someone, to produce lots of lactic acid inside a cell.

That's right. And I mean, you know, we test your average patient nowadays, and we find that their body is full of mold toxins, that they're deficient in zinc and selenium and magnesium, and their amino acid levels are low. And they've got bad bacteria colonized in their sinuses and in their intestines. They've got three parasites and three more bad bacteria, and they're not producing digestive enzymes. And their cortisol levels are really suppressed, and their testosterone levels are suppressed. And you just go down the line and you look at. No wonder this guy can't fight cancer. He's barely alive, and he doesn't even have the tools in his body or the nutrition in his body so that he could even put up a good fight. And that a lot of the strategy for cancer is that you have to get the host back to some semblance of being able to fight. 99% of the cancer patients I see have a vitamin D level of 10. And we know that if it would be 80, their chances of even getting cancer are like, 46% less.

Why is that? Does vitamin D affect the mitochondria?

Vitamin D affects the whole immune system and probably the mitochondria. And when the levels are too low, your immune system sucks.

Okay, so back to Garrison therapy. What are your takeaway thoughts on it?

My takeaway thoughts on it are that it doesn't work that today it's just not an effective therapy for most people.

Okay. Compared to doing something like introducing higher amounts of oxygen into the body Combined with metal detoxification, Combined with limited protein and intermittent fasting and low glucose and higher fat intake.

Yes. And I think, you know, just the caveat on it Is that there isn't one size fits all. We do genetic studies on all the cancer patients that we see of their cancers, and one colon cancer is not the same as the next one is the same as the next one one. These cancers are very unique, individual entities, and they're actually mixed entities because the genetic profile within the tumor itself is different. It's really not one size. All the only strategy that I think does work Is that you have to really test people and see what condition is their body and their nutrition in, what are the characteristics of their cancer, what is their cancer sensitive to, what nutritional agents stop that cell from growing or alter that cell so it doesn't grow or so that it dies. Then if you could get this information, you, can help cancer patients to survive their disease and to live. Sometimes it includes low doses of even chemotherapy, because sometimes the cancer is in a state where if you don't arrest it quick, it's going to wreck their liver, won't function, or their breathing tube is blocked off, and they're going to die. Just because you need time for these sort of nutritional, bioenergy treatments for them to take place.

Let's say somebody's on chemotherapy, or somebody knows somebody who's on chemotherapy, and they want to at least mitigate the damage or limit the damage of chemo. What are some of the things that you would do in your clinic or that you would recommend to people to keep chemotherapy from being as damaging as it can be?

Well, I think the first thing, and this is the thing that we do first, is we test them. We get all body fluids, stool, urine, saliva, blood, and we look for what state is their amino acids, their vitamins, their minerals, their essential fats. What are their detoxification pathways? Are they full of other organisms that are part of the immune load? What is their dental situation? Because the most difficult thing In a person with chronic illness is their teeth. They got infected dead teeth, root canals, cavitations, lot of cavities, a lot of gum disease. You can't fight cancer when half the battle is trying to just, you know, keep the mouth clean. So it's really to. I think most people need help. They need a practitioner who can. Who understands this and who can say, look, we've Got to just like, even if they decide to keep. We have some people who go to the oncologist and get regular chemotherapy treatments, but in the background we're giving them, we're rehabilitating their basic body stuff. And they might be getting intravenous vitamin C or intravenous ozone to help support and protect their healthy cells from the devastating effects of the chemotherapy that might, under those circumstances, be helpful to them.

Interesting. So you're doing a lot of things that you would also do to support mitochondria 100%.

Because the athlete that you're trying to get a hundredth of a second better in his hundred meter swim time, the things that make him better are the same things that get the guy with cancer or the guy with chronic fatigue off the couch. The athlete has minuscule little things that can be tweaked that when you measure, it's like, oh, oh, oh, okay, tweak this, tweak this, tweak this. And he's a little faster, he's a little better. And the other guy that's on the couch or the guy with cancer, he's got, oh my God. There's like 45 things here that are just like really screwed up that we have to get in reasonable shape and then your body will be able to fight. I've heard you talk about the Spartan race thing and you get somebody, you put somebody in that kind of atmosphere where they haven't worked out and their nutrition's terrible and they're going to die in the first five minutes because they can't do 10 pull ups and they can't pull themselves over a rock. They can't do it. But if you take that guy in six months ahead, you say, okay, we're going to tune you up. We're going to get your nutrition optimized and your vitamin, mineral, stool, all this stuff optimized, and we're going to put you on a workout program that is for your body gradient so that you can get stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger. At the end of six months, you'll be able to do 10 pull ups and you'll be able to run a mile in under 10 minutes. And whatever those criteria are. And the guy now he can fight, he can play.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And it's sort of the same with that works on all fronts.

I've got one other question for you. There's this idea, and I've talked about this a bit before on a podcast, there's this idea that when it comes to being in an anabolic state. And we actually already touched on this a little bit when we were talking about protein and how too high of a protein intake or bacon and eggs every day for breakfast and then fish for lunch and meat for dinner, AKA the paleo diet, could potentially activate something like the MTOR pathway to an extent where you become too anabolic and too nitrogenous and may eventually even assist with tumor growth or with cancerous cell growth. So what about supplements? Because there's people that take supplements that are also really anabolic. Stuff like bioidentical hormone replacement therapy or colostrum or DHEA or you know, injectable peptides and there's all sorts of these things that are anabolic. What are your opinions on these? Do you think people are pushing the fast forward button on their body in terms of increasing their chances of getting cancer in the same way that they could do so with eating excessive calories?

I think that they can. And again, it's individually dependent. Some people, if their testosterone is 150, that if you give them either supplements or testosterone and you get them to 550 or 750, that they're way better off. Because at 150 they're in a catabolic state and things are lousy. If you get them in a healthy state and then monitor them, that they're way better, their longevity is going to be better and they're at less risk for cancer, not higher risk risk. Because people with low testosterone and low growth hormones, they're at risk for these diseases. I think that there is a physiologic range for each person which is optimum for them and their genetics and their age and that what we're trying to do is find that sweet spot so that then their body performance is the best. I think a lot of guys who are doing anabolic stuff are overdoing it. Their Testosterone level is 2000 and they're half, half the time. And it alters a lot of things. So too much and too little is never the right thing. It's what is that area where the guy feels good, can have fun, can play and can have good longevity. And that's an ideal nutritional approach to biochemistry or medicine, is trying to get the person there. And usually when you get them there, they know it and then monitor them and what does it take? Some people need lots of supplements, some people need less. Again, it depends on where are they at and what are they trying to do and then to try to get it. So that that's. So that works?

Yeah, yeah, it Makes sense. I mean, like, I use some of that stuff. So I can't use, for example, DHEA because it's banned by the World Anti Doping association or bioidentical hormone replacement therapy. But I use something like colostrum, for example. Not every day of the year. You know, I've used peptides like BPC150 is one I recently wrote an article on at BenGreenfieldFitness.com, it's an injectable peptide based amino acid, and I've used that before. But it's not something that I would use every day because in my opinion, I think you have to be careful being in a consistently anabolic state. Same reason I personally, almost every single day of the year, do an intermittent fast where I'll go 12 to 16 hours and most of that overnight without putting calories in my body. In general, it's also like carbohydrate refeeds, right? Like I'll have one meal at the end of the day that's higher in carbohydrates. And sure, that introduces some glucose in my body and it could potentially, if I were overdoing it, be damaging the mitochondria or encourage something like enhanced glucose metabolism and cell growth and some kind of lactic acid production. But if it's in moderation, anything from caloric refeeds to carbohydrate refeeds to the use of colostrum or peptides or anything like that, if it's in moderation, you're not staying in a constantly anabolic state. I guess that's what it comes down to.

Yeah. Or it's everything. So that balance is achieved. Because sometimes you take the same supplement every day for five years. And the body, at first, if you're measuring things that are low, and at first you measure it and it comes up and oh, the good. But then you keep going for two months and then you measure it and it's gone back down. Because it's like the body. No, no, I don't think it happens with steak and broccoli and eggs, but when you're putting in things on the outside again, you sort of have to watch what the response is.

Yeah, makes sense. Well, you know, there's obviously a ton of stuff we could talk about. That's why I keep having you back on the show, man. And for those of you listening in the stuff that we talked about today, like the water and the ozonation and these books, like Tripping over the Truth and Bursting and all of the other podcasts I've done with Dr. Minkoff because there's four or five of them now. And the nature Aminos that Dr. Minkoff makes that I take and the metal chelation stuff that he makes that I also take, all that stuff, I'm gonna put it in the show notes. So you just go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Cancer Podcast. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com cancer podcast. And I'll also put a link to Dr. Minkoff's website over there, too. Then if you have questions or comments or things you want to pipe in on, we'll be happy to reply to those. Just leave them in the comments section over there and we can, we can chat over there, too. Oh, One other thing, Dr. Minkoff, are you, are you gonna do your, your 42nd Iron man anytime soon?

November.

Nice. Is that Arizona? Yeah, dude.

Doing Florida in November. I'm doing Augusta in, in September, so feeling good. And, you know, I'm busy, so. When I was young, I could train a lot and now I'm trying to. I'm listening. You know, I just read your book, which is amazing and trying to incorporate which one.

Beyond training.

Yeah, Very little. And hope it works out a lot and. But who cares? I'm, I'm. I don't have any to prove to myself or anybody else anymore. But it is fun. I love the lifestyle.

Lifestyle. Yeah. Well, man, after you've done 41 of them, I think it probably becomes a little bit more of a cruise control issue. Not that it's still not freaking hard and impressive, but 42 and 43 this year. Best of luck, man.

Thank you so much, Ben. And good to talk to you.

All right, folks, this is Ben Greenfield and Dr. David Minkoff. Check out the show notes@BenGreenfieldFitness.com CancerPodcast and have a healthy week. 3, 2.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.

Sam.