Back-to-Back Premium Tags: Nevada Rifle to Utah Late Archery

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All right, Jace, welcome to the podcast, man. How are we doing?

Thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm doing good, dude.

Banner year. Banner year.

Yeah. Better than I expected. I had high expectations, but, man, I. You can't plan for that. Like, it definitely turned out better than I thought it would. So.

So going in, I mean, we'll get into it. You killed stompable late season archery and late season rifle. We could talk about early season stuff too, but, like, go. I mean, I feel like just looking at your tags, it's one of those years where, like the stars align, you. You draw the tags. And I think every elk hunter knows. Well, not every elk hunter knows what it feels like to actually have those tags. But like, you know, you're like, oh, man, like, this is the year.

Was it.

Was it that way for you? Like, kind of coming out of the application season?

Oh, yeah. So for start, I. I do Nevada late rifles and I knew it was going to be phenomenal. Like, as soon as you draw that tag, anything, Nevada is going to be good. But then especially in a premier unit like I drew, and you're. You're looking at it like, holy cow, this could be the best of tag that I ever had. And so I'm like, sweet. And normally all my applications are based around. I need to be able to have time to guide and do all my other stuff early season. And so I do the late season just for myself so that when I draw it, I'll have time. Yeah, I draw that Nevada tag In the openers November 21, I was like, sweet, golden, like lace season. I'm not doing anything. It's just for me. And then Utah results roll around and I, I drew the, the late archery as well. And like son of that 20, 28, that's. That's a tight window. And so I knew it was going to be good, but it was also a little stressful. Like, I knew it was going to clockwork. Like, things were going to have to come together for it to all come all work out the way I want. It seems.

It seems like when you draw a really good tag, like, you're inevitably going to draw another good tag. And I mean, we do it to ourselves because you could just not put in for things. But who does that? Come on, who. Who, who puts in for tags? Responsibly and it seems like the year you get the best tag, you like a Nevada late tag, you inevitably like draw some other tag that you don't want to just half ass, you don't want to just give it up. You're like, I kind of want that too.

Yeah, yeah, that's. I, I knew it was going to be tough, but I figured, all right, I'll go dedicate. Because archery, you know, it's going to be a grind. Like, it's not going to just go easy most of the time. Right. The R, on the other hand, I was like, okay, I'm going to make sure and scout a couple days solid before Nevada and then I've got a bunch of help planned on coming down. I'll try to dedicate to it and if it takes two weeks, then I'll just start the Utah late because it goes, it's. I, I don't even know, like a 16 day hunt or something, a long hunt. And so I thought I'll just miss the first couple days of Utah if I have to. And so that was my, my justification that it would all work out is I, I'll dedicate to Nevada and then I'll move to Utah once I can.

Okay, so you get to know, I mean, how much have you guided that area in, in Nevada? How much do you know about this area?

Zero. Like I was just swinging for the fences, like, okay, this is one of the top units. And it was actually my second choice in my application. Just drew it and then I went, all right, time to get serious. And so I got some good buddies that have hunted it and knew it and they gave me some starting points. And the first thing I did, I jumped on my Onx. I just started dropping pins and I had my top, like 5 of pins. I'm like, all right, I'm going to hit these spots. And it was my second pin that I dropped is where I ended up spotting my bull from. So it worked out. But yeah, I, I had never been there. I haven't been to Nevada since I was like nine years old. We went to the NFR and that was it.

So with a tag like Nevada, like how do you feel like you have to go into that differently or do you like, I mean, it's a premium tag. There's not going to be a ton of pressure. There's going to be some pressure because it's, I mean, I mean other people have the tag as well, but like, I mean, what was kind of your game plan going into you, like from an e Scouting perspective. Were you trying to get away from people or you're like, I just want to cover the most nasty country I can.

So a little of both. The main. The very first pin I dropped was like the nastiest point on the whole unit. Like you're 4, 000ft from the road to the top of the mountain and I'm like two thirds of the way up the mountain where my pin was like, hey, this mason looks awesome. I need to glass it good. And so I went with that. But then I also went cover the most country. I'm going in blind. I need to be able to find as many elk as I can as fast as I can. And so I was just looking at like the biggest looks possible. I've got the Suaro 95 with the BTX and a doubler and like, I'm gonna sit on a peak that I can see the world and.

Right.

That's where we spotted my bull from is one of those spots. So.

Oh, okay. So it was like, yeah, it was like, get back, look over as as far and as much as quantity as we can and not the tiny little pockets. Yeah, man. Okay. So you get into the hunt, you're a couple days early. Like walk us through what happens.

Yeah, so I. So with work, my work schedule's been. Been pretty crazy. Like we've had a crazy year and so I didn't have as nearly as much time as I wanted to scout. I actually planned on getting down to the unit like two, three times early. I wanted to go in August and just get familiarized with roads and things and see some of the bulls and then go back again and again and again and you know, at least like three solid trips, like three day weekends and it never happened. So it's the week before the hunt and like, son of a. We gotta get down there. Luckily, I had a couple buddies that were good to go. And so we roll in Friday night, we set up camp. We set up some wall tents and stuff. We scouted Saturday and Sunday all day and then, well, Saturday all day and then Sunday that there was a storm. And so we scouted the morning of Sunday and then we left at like noon. And so then I went back home. I worked Monday and Tuesday all day, and then I left late Tuesday night and drove back and I scouted all day Wednesday all day Thursday alone, all day Wednesday alone, Thursday morning. And then my one really good buddy Neil showed up for Thursday afternoon. And so the two of us drove out Thursday afternoon, scouted he glasses, he was glassing like 4.8 miles. And he spots a bull and he's like, I got a bull. This thing looks. It looks good. And he's trying to walk me in on it. And it's so far. And you're looking into these junipers and clear down into this valley. And so he's trying to walk me in on it and I'm. I'm panning. Oh, I, I think I see him. He's. You see those two knobs? He's right to the right of him. He's like, no, he was to the left and something. Well, you better look at this bull because he's freaking big. And so I was trying to find the bull he had spotted and I panned right onto my bull and they were only like 400 yards apart. And he. So he was 4.6 miles from where we spotted him. And like, we gotta watch him till dark. And so we just posted up. It's freezing. We're both sitting up there like shaking like crazy and stared at him till it was too dark to see him. But I, I had made up my mind. That was like the tag, you know, there's. There are legitimate 390 plus bulls on the unit. I knew of two of them from friends, like early season. There's two bulls over 400 on the unit. So I'm like, I'm not gonna just shoot anything. Like, he's got to be over 380. And so I'm holding.

Okay, so you're, hold. You're holding out for 380 plus?

Yeah. And it's so far that I'm like, oh, his beam looks a little compact. I can't see his fronts. Like, I don't know. And so then we go back to camp and about the time we're getting back to camp, it's dark now, but that's when all my buddies rolled. I had like nine people show up to help me. Like, everybody wanted a piece of this tag. And I'm, I'm like, the more the merrier. You guys are studs. Thanks so much. And we've got this big old camp, all this food for like two weeks we're set up. And I'm like, I. I don't want to make a mistake and shoot a bull that I'm gonna, I'm gonna regret. Like, I'm not gonna regret. You shoot like a 360 plus bull, you're gonna be stoked. But I don't not give it my everything first. And so we're discussing it and the crappy video I got, we're showing everyone, and everyone's kind of on the same boat. They're like, he's big. Like, I don't know you. We've gotta at least go get a closer look.

And I was, is it a catch 22 to have nine people? Because nine people are gonna try. If you have one buddy, he's gonna chalk you into shooting something. You might be able to talk him out of it. If you have four buddies, they're going to talk you into shooting something. So is there like a downside of nine guys?

Everyone's jumping on the band, like, oh, we need to kill him. But I'd be in a hard case. Like, go. We. We got to get a closer look. And I don't want to waste the morning.

Right.

Hate not to have everyone there if we're going to kill him, but I really don't know if he's 380. Like, he looks just. You couldn't see enough to tell. And so what we ended up doing is sending guys all to all these different pens that I wanted to check where I'd seen big bull scouting. There was one bull with great big beams. I wanted to get a better look. And so we scattered people out every direction. And I just had two buddies come with me and another buddy skirt, like, far so that he could look in on the same stuff or another two buddies. So there's. There's four of us plus me five all together on that bull and the other like five guys total go everywhere else. And so we move in on him, and we had looked on onyx and there's this little ant hill. And then it dips down and it goes up a side hill. And he's in this bowl. And so if we can get on that ant hill, we're going to be like 7 to 8, 50 from him and we can get a good look, decide what we need to do if he's a shooter. And so we. We move in. And at first light, I'm cresting that little ant hill. And I look, and right where the bull was and the gol. He's moved. He's gone. And I can't see enough. I'm getting antsy. Like, you know how you're.

Oh, yeah, mine's turning.

Instead of just sitting down and like glassing for 10 seconds even I'm like this, like, I'm not seeing him. I'm not seeing him.

Crap.

And so I'm. Let's move around the right side of this ant hill. Like our. Our lookout knob. And we can see all of it rather than just this little area where he was last night. So I move around the right hand side and come to find out he was in plain sight. Like I just missed him. I, I was in such a hurry, I scanned right over him.

Yeah.

So then we move around the right hand side and there he is standing there on a ridge and he is about to feed over like two more steps and he's gone. And it's thick juniper. Like if he's gone, then we're gonna have a hard time getting another good opportunity. And so I throw my spot on scope down and I literally, I just, I didn't even like extend the legs, nothing. I just set it on the ground. I bend down and look and I go, I'm killing that bull. It was like two seconds. I seen just the back edge of his beam swoop up and I could see his ones and twos were great curly things and yep, he's big enough. And so then it was all over pretty quick. I, I embarrassed to even say, but I air balled the first one. Oh no. I freaking range. So I ranged him and I got 775 and I just went click. Okay, done. Dial the rifle late. I'm getting prone ready, and my buddy, in the background of the video, you can hear him, Jace, he's 8, 20. I, I was like in the, in the zone. I didn't even hear that. And so I shoot. And it went right on the video. You can see it goes barely under his chest. And then he lurches forward like two steps. And it's like less than a second later I got another round in the air and that one hit him good. And then he turns and he actually comes back towards us. And then I hit him two more times. So, yeah, over pretty quick. Yeah. Ten minutes from first light and he's dead. So it was a little bit ridiculous. Then I had to call my buddies and hey, sorry guys. Bull down, everybody.

Everybody come here.

What do you.

What's your thought on that Nevada hunt? Like, what is it? Is it like, is it that easy? Did you get lucky? Does it take a lot of work? Like how hard is.

Was way easier than most of the Utah late season stuff I've ever done. I'm fair. Their management is insane. So I went down. In total, I had, I think it was three full days in a morning of scouting and then that evening. So yeah, so three full days in a morning all together. And the evening of the third full day, I found my bowl. And in total, I had eight bulls that I figured were 360 plus. But the biggest was for sure mine. Like the next base was probably 375.

And wow, what'd yours end up taping at?

He's 394 and five baits. So he's got about an inch broken off total. So he would have been pushing 3. 96 unbroken. And he's an awesome bull.

Dude on a stud bull? That's insane. I always wondered about that. I mean, like, it's one of those tags you could just almost. You could never draw it in your lifetime. And like, man, it'd be cool to have someday. And I always wondered if it's like almost too easy or if it's like, you know, you're picking out a lot of bulls, you got to turn them up. Like.

Yeah, I know. It's less. I don't know. I. Me and my buddies kind of specialize on late season. Like, we've had really good success guiding late season rifle elk. Like, I've always just done well with late season stuff. I've shed hunted like crazy my whole life. And so I feel like we've just got a little bit of an edge above a lot of guys for late season. Like, that's kind of our specialty. And so I felt like it was pretty easy. But then I heard two different outfitters. The one is a really prominent outfitter. They're flying. Ate his tag. They never were able to find a bull over 360. And that's kind of what their mark was. And then another outfitter, two clients, and they killed a 347 and a 358 bull. So. And that's a big, well known outfitter.

I mean, like, just was word on the street that things weren't where they usually are. Like, because I know, like I would say, I mean, I'm in Montana. Very different. But like, things are definitely not where they should be. Mainly because we don't have snow yet. But like, that's kind of been the word on the street, if you will, throughout, like everywhere just like, man, way different year as far as moisture. Just elk being not where they usually are. Was that man. Do you think that's the case that happens in Nevada too?

Yeah, for sure. Like, it was. It was almost bone dry. There was almost zero snow. And so I think that everything was just a little displaced, a little more spread out than normal. And I feel like our attitude going in is we have to cover everything, like get big knobs, glass everything, and like really hard to start from scratch. And so that played into our favor. Whereas if, like, if you know the unit intimately and you're. You're going into your favorite glass and point, there's always or you know of a big bowl like this 390 bull pulls into this drainage every year, and he's not there yet. He's still in that sea of judah where.

And so this is where, like, almost not having any knowledge is a benefit. Because if you're an outfitter and you. You're like, man, they're always here, here or here. And like, you're going to those pockets over and over, and like, your. Your history is going to want to push you to those same places. Whereas when you're like. And maybe scouting was like, your asset, right? Like, you don't have anything. So, like, I gotta look far, look big and far, right? Like, I just cover everything sometimes. That can be a benefit for sure.

Yeah, definitely. I think that that definitely played into our hand as. As a benefit. And so it's not easy. Like, you're still grinding and. Yeah, like, if the bulls. I heard last year that unit, the bulls never showed up. Like, it's just insane amount of carpeted juniper for miles and miles. And there was a really good, like, pine nut crop. And so the bulls just stayed down in those junipers. They never pulled out to where you can glass them. And a lot of people didn't kill.

And so, dude, there's something to be said. Like, if you study Nevada bowls, like, you'll find out that pine nut crop, which pine nut crop, is really weird. Like, it's. It could be like, every seventh year, you'll have like, this banner year of pine nuts. And it's not necessarily like a lot of people correlate it to water. It's definitely not like, it's just like this weird thing where, like. But if you get a banner year of pine nuts, it changes the mule deer, it changes the elk, changes everything. And it's. It's interesting. Like, do you ever. You think anybody looks at that when they're putting it in for draws? Like, I mean, Nevada's like, when I get it, I get it. It's not like I can.

So, I mean, I. I always kind of try to keep a finger on the pulse of, like, info like that. And I had heard that it was a terrible harvest year for basically all of those premium Nevada units because of that. And I mean, I would have applied the same either way, but made it that much more exciting when I drew because I'm like, there's a lot bigger overburden of these older age old that lived last year. So.

Totally. I mean that's a huge thing. I mean you look at that. I mean it's the same way you would look at winters in Wyoming or something where it's like familiar. Where it's like, oh man, you know, in four years we could have a great crop. Same with Nevada. Interesting. Do you think so you think next year could be good just because a lot of the top end probably didn't get out this year.

It's going to be crazy. So this last year wasn't good and this year was similarly hard. Like I, I had three or four guys message me after I had killed like hey, was you on this unit? What. What can you tell me? And I'm never going to draw it again. It doesn't hurt me. I'd help in a couple. Like I'm not giving any honey holes because I had a couple guys help me and I didn't want to give their spots but like give them a couple of the glassing points that I found on my own because that's my. Like I can give it freely. And so.

Right.

I, I tried to help them that way but all but one of them ended up not killing. And then those outfitters struggled like it was definitely a tough year. So next year is going to be good.

Dude, that's crazy. Interesting. So then, I mean like is it just turn and burn to write to Utah or what was the plan?

Oh yeah. So I, I knew like we've got Thanksgiving obviously coming up and I wanted to spend time with family, like keep the wife happy, hang out with the kids. And so we, we killed first light opening morning and we're like, God, we got all this nice temp. All this camp said let's just sit back and enjoy the moment for a minute. And so we, we actually hung out all day, stayed the night and then broke down camp slow the next morning. So it was, it was kind of fun. Just hang out with buddies, relax and take in the moment. And so we got camp packed up, got everything loaded, we all headed home, kind of left and then. All right, late Utah, who's coming?

This, this party's just moving to say it over.

Yeah, let's just move everything over. We, we actually ended up, no one could really go and everyone had family stuff with Thanksgiving coming up. And the hunt opened the day after Thanksgiving. Or was it I, I think two days after? Yeah. So open Saturday. Thanksgiving was on Thursday. So I was the first one to make it down There I waited until. So I, I hung out with family all day Thursday. We had a nice Thanksgiving dinner and everything and then I just waited until everyone left and all the in laws come to my house and. Oh perfect. So I just waited for everyone to leave and then I packed up and left. Midnight, run down to the unit, got a tent set up, hung out and scouted the next day. Morning alone. And then I had a buddy show up and we scouted the evening and then another buddy show up. And then the next day was the opener and so opening day we started out and then I had a good buddy that lives down close to where I was hunting show up and he had actually blast up a giant five point the night before the hunt. He lives right on the border of the unit and so he or his parents do. So he was at his parents house for Thanksgiving and he ran out scouting and he actually, he didn't even know the hunt started so he thought that it was the next week and he wasn't going to be able to make it. And so he messages me and he's like dude, I found a giant bull. Like next week you're in business. I'm like it starts tomorrow, man. Where is he? And so he got me onto a really good five point for opener. And it's, it's like a 360, 365 inch five point, like 21 inch first seconds, thirds, 22 inch royals and big beam and just crazy bulls. But. So we went downhill. But he was rutting still. He had six pounds and he was bugling, pushing his cows.

No way.

The 10 year old bull, 365 like giant and he's pushing cows the night before the hunt.

That's crazy.

So opening morning I'm. I'm over there looking for him and them guys are all sitting back, the three of them that were with me. And I move up to the ridge so I'm right underneath where he was the night before and I can't hear anything, I can't see anything. So I just slowly moved up and I found his tracks in the junipers and started tracking. And it's just like doing the rut. Like he's pushing those cows, there's like torn up dirt. He's moving them, he's bullying them. And then they'd moved off like two miles. I trailed them quite a ways and I. We never found him. We never seen him. And so crazy. It was kind of a bust because that dang bull was still rotting and he pushed his cows out on me. But just crazy.

That is wild, huh?

Yeah. I can't believe it. Like just a late psycho cow and there's no snow. So he's like, yeah, especially a bull.

That big and that old. You would think like sure, cows come in. But like I would expect A you know, 300 inch bull maybe like you know, going crazy. Expect that. Don't expect 360 bull.

Yeah. Oh, never like latest I've ever seen a mature like always a. There's little bulls that they don't know the, the drill yet. Yeah, I've never seen a bull like that mature. Big of a bull running this late. It was insane, huh? And so anyways we, we hunted opening morning there, opening evening there, then the next. So the next two days we. So the first three days we spent in that area and we found several other big bulls. And my one buddy glossed up a bowl that would have been like 385. But he broke right below his royal, right above his royal on the the one side. So he had, he was a 4 by 5, 4 by 6 basically, but would have been a giant. We found several big bulls. We were looking for a bull that's like a, he's like a 400, 405 typical. He's huge. And we, we got our butts kicked, couldn't find him. And so after three days, three, two full days in a morning of grinding out that area like all right, let's move over to where we normally hunt. Moved sides of the mountain. I had another buddy show up and my one buddy had to go home. And so it's the me and my two good friends and we saddle up the horses, we go for a ride to this peak and it's like an hour, hour and 20 minute ride. And we get clear, clear up the trail and into this peak and there's like 10 inches of snow up up on the very top. And we set up and we start glass and we glass for probably 45 minutes. And then I turned and I looked like back behind us and underneath us in the canyon that we had ridden through the head of. I'm like, holy crap, there's three bulls and they're all big like that biggest one. I'll shoot for sure. I wanted to be like fairly picky. I've killed a couple good bulls with my bow. I, I hunted the same unit several years ago and killed a three. Ended up being like right at 370, shrunk down, he's in the high 360. Killed him with on the early season archery. And I'VE killed a couple over the counter archery bulls in the upper 350s and low 360. And so I didn't, I didn't want to just shoot one. To shoot one, I'm like, I don't need. Obviously, I, I could kill a rag horn every year for the rest of my life and be stoked. I love hunting out with a bow, but at the same time, like, this is a better tag. I can hunt over the counter every year. I need to be picky. And so, right. Um, I look at him, I'll shoot him. Like, he looks good. And, and my buddies look in my spotter and like, yeah, like, you'd be dumb not to go stock him. He's missing a royal. But man, he's big. And we kind of had a funny angle. Like, still, I look at my video and this bull I look at and I think He's. He's like mid-360s off the video. Well, he's not. He's a lot bigger than that. So it's just. Good thing I'm. I'm dumb and don't know how to judge. I guess I might have been a lot more excited if I knew how big he was.

Right.

So we're up on this peak and it's. It's forever down to him. So then I, I marked it out on Onx and I think it was 1.4 miles, like straight line. So with all my extra. I figure I did about 1.8 miles right then it was like 1300ft of elevation loss and then like 800 of elevation gain to get. I had to cross the canyon. We were looking across. Yeah, I look at the clock and I had like an hour and 16 minutes before. It was like dark, dark from the night before. I was like, I gotta get there in under an hour to make this work. And I'm like, son of a. So I take everything off. Like, all I took was my rangefinder, my. My boat, and that's it. Like, I, I didn't even take my backpack, so I stuffed a headlamp in my pocket. Luckily I thought of that, so I had a headlamp, my bow, and that's it. And I. Down this hill, I'm rolling in the snow eight, like five times. It was brutal. And so the worst part, I. I tore my rotator cuff like three weeks before. I was guiding a, A Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep client. And I had the whole sheep on my back and I planted a trekking pole and then slipped. And I can't do the motion now cause I still haven't had surgery yet, but my arm goes like this and I felt like a twinge, but it really wasn't bad. But then as time went on I. So that's at this point like 4 weeks ago from when I needed to be bow hunting and I. Those last like three weeks, I couldn't even shoot my bow more. I would shoot every two days, I'd shoot two arrows. I was like, I just gotta keep the muscle memory up, right? And do like two shots. But it was brutal. And so then coming down that hill, I couldn't use a trekking pole or anything anyways. And so I'm, I'm like tuck and rolling like 10 times. I fell so many times I run down, climb up the other side hill and there's these rock spires that the bulls are in this little pocket and there's these rock spires. And I had checked it on Onx and if I could get down through those, I'd be in range and, and be able to shoot em. And my wind was like as perfect as you could draw it up. Like the wind is blowing straight from the bulls to those rock spires. And so I just like boogie fast. I could. Not worrying about noise, wind, nothing. I'm just moving.

And I left with the bulls on their feet.

Yeah, they were up feeding and so. And they were moving in the head of the canyon, like getting closer. And so I get up there and I had to just lay down, put my head, hands over my head. I'm like oh, like trying not to puke. I'm like dry.

He.

I'm so dead. So then I pick up my stuff, I'm like all right, man up. Like we got like 10 to get there. And so I go up through the spires, drop down, peek over, the bulls are all standing right there and I shoot. Hit him good. My first shot. Like he was dead after the first arrow. But you know, you never know that. And so I, I dumped the whole quiver. I had a quiver and I shot all. I didn't sleep the next two nights. Like oh my gosh. I ended up hitting him the first shot and then he ran out pretty, pretty far. And I hit him two more times, but then I missed the other. What is that, four, right?

You just like put arrows in him, like make him, make him go down.

Hit him really good. A second, My second shot, My first shot and second shot were both, both would have killed him individually. Then like the fifth shot was just a. It cut him good. But it wasn't Wasn't a good shot. But you don't know. Like, I didn't know where I had hit him. I didn't have my binoculars and everything to sit there and check and make sure I'd hit him. And so I just. I just dumped the quiver.

I mean, honestly, like, it's like if.

If you put.

Put a good one in him and, like, you get another opportunity. Elk are so freaking tough. Like, I just. Yeah, I'm. Same way. Like, might as well get another one in him for Ken.

Yeah, well, I. I shot the whole quiver. And then my buddies are sitting up on the ridge, and they radio down. They're like, well, it looks like you hit him. Like, see blood is. Are you sneaking in closer? I'm out of arrows.

I gotta sneak up and grab another arrow here.

Yeah. They're like, what, it's been like 50 seconds. How did you run out of arrows that fast?

Training.

Yeah.

Did you watch him go down?

Yeah. Yep. I. I actually got the video. I don't know if I'll post posted or anything ever. It took about three minutes total, but he only went, like, 20 yards. I really think late season bulls just don't. Like, they're. They're not pumping. Like, they're not right. It's, like, during the rut. So in total, from the first arrow to where he died was maybe 75 yards. And I don't know, he. Maybe three minutes, but he. He was like. You could tell he was dead after the first one. Like, he just walked slow, stopped. Walked slow, stopped, and then he got wobbly, and then he fell down. It was cool to watch. So that's crazy.

How stoked were you when you walked up and saw he's another absolute giant?

Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, then it's getting dark, and so I was like, all right. He laid down. I'm watching his head. His head's just kind of moving a little back until he's, like, on the verge. And so I jogged down there, grabbed another arrow, took a quick video of the track, and you can see my arrow sticking in along. Like, the arrows I missed was sticking in along his tracks. It's kind of funny. I'm pulling arrows out of the dirt and shoving them in my quiver, and I walked up to him, drew back, and he. He was. He was basically dead. So I just sat and watched him for about 30 seconds, and then he was done. And then at that point is when I realized just how big he was. Like, I stepped down to him, and I. I put my hands on his Horns and the mass is like that, like you're, you're trying to grab him and it's just, holy crap, I misjudged this bull by a lot. It was pretty cool. It was, it was a neat experience.

So dude, what's your thought on that late archery hunt? I had a buddy do it and I went down, I was just down with him for a day or whatever. It's pretty interesting. You know, as someone I don't know, I, I, Dude, I've been on the fence of whether even to keep putting in for Utah or just bail on it. The late archery intrigues me. But like, I kind of wanted to watch the success rates and like, see how things went for the first coup. Yeah, I mean your bowl is, I mean, pretty big inspiration. Be like, oh, it can be done. Because I see a lot of 0% success rates on units that don't seem like that should be the case. Do you think it's, you think it's doable? I mean, obviously it's doable.

So I think if you have zero knowledge of the unit, it's going to be highly risky. Like, I, I definitely think it's one of the toughest elk hunts you can do. So the, the unit I hunted has been 0% success rate until this year. And I killed. And then I was sharing camp with a, a buddy and he killed as well. He killed the day after me killed a.354 bull. And so like it's doable, but we're both in the same boat. Like both of us can hike. I think that's, that's number one. Like, you can't be scared of a 1500 vertical vertical foot climb in a foot of snow. Like you got to be able to, gotta be able to motor and then honestly, like being confident at a little bit further ranges than a lot of people talk about. Like, you're not, you're most likely not gonna get a 50 yard shot. It's probably gonna be 70 yards. And so I, I think you need to be in phenomenal shape and ready to shoot. But then it's doable. Like and, and, and timeframe. A lot of guys work, you know, like me. My plan was to spend the first full week, so that first weekend, then five days, then the next weekend, and then I would have been back to the work. I would have just been able to hunt the last weekend of the hunt.

So it's not a weekend hunt.

Yeah, it's not a weekend hunt. You need like a week.

Right.

And so I, I know three or Four guys that are legit killers, like, they know how to hunt, and they all did it this year and all of them ended up eating their tag. So, yeah, I've seen a lot of.

Legit hunters eat that tag. That's, I was kind of curious, you know. Hey, the other thing is like, the thing you notice is like, it's so dependent on the snow conditions, which is like any late archery because, and it's not like, oh, is it going to push the elk? That matters too, but the type of snow you have and, and I think maybe you got lucky with like, no snow. It looked like there wasn't much on the ground when we were there. It was the crunchiest, loudest snow. So, like getting under a hundred was.

Like, this is, you're gonna have to.

Catch the right bull in the right spot because the snow is terrible.

Well, and so that's another thing. Like my bowl, it, I was on crunchy snow, but it was, it was spotty. But there was like four inches of snow. Most of the hillside that I was my final approach up. But I just. Elk are noisy, so I didn't try sneaking at all. I think that's a, a big like, I guess a tip. Guys try to snake. If you snake, then great, that's the best.

But if you can't sneak, don't sneak and be loud.

Don't sneak and be loud because then you sound like a predator. Like, right, cows, there's elk, there's deer. Everything makes noise. Just walk, just a normal walk. Try to make your cadence not sound like a human. And, and you can usually walk. Like, look at hunting. Like, I, I, I went into the hunt with that attitude. Like, I've been out shed hunting a million times where I walk 30 yards from a group bedded group of bulls. And it's because I'm just walking. Whereas sneaking. Them suckers would have been right. They would have jogged 100 yards, looked back, spotted you. Then they would have hauled all day out of the. So I'm, I feel like that's a, that's kind of a important thing. Like, I did a stock on some other bulls. I passed like a 345 type bowl. Really heavy. He just had weak fits him at like 36 yards. I actually jumped him at like 10 yards in the junipers. I was on my way into like a 365 type bowl and I didn't know he was bedded. Right. I walked right in on him and I could have killed that bull. So I, I passed like five other bulls on my hunt. The biggest being 345, the smallest, like a 310 bull. And so like obvious. Also like your standards. If someone just wants a bull, I feel like maybe it's a lot more doable than if you're trying to hold out for that really top end. But it's definitely a tough one. It's not and it's not fun. Like I. So I actually this hoodie I got on, I, I used so I put a thick like a 330 weight merino and then I put a puffy and then I put this hoodie over top of all that so that would suck in so my arm wouldn't hurt, wouldn't hit. And then I had, I bought my wife heated vest. I got, I forget, I don't even know the brand, but a battery powered heated vest.

You stole it?

I put it on my hoodie. That way I could stay sleek. Like I'm not a big old puffy sucker out there that can't shoot a bow. But right I can stay warm. And so there's a lot of little things like that you got to pay attention to on that hunt. It's not a fun hunt as far as physically you're going to kick your own butt, you're going to be cold and. But there's definitely a chance at a bigger bull.

So that's interesting. One of the things you said like, oh, I, you know, I feel like me and my crew are pretty good at these late season hunts. Um, and maybe it's from shed hunting. I do think that that picks up a lot. It's like you pick up a lot of elk behavior late season. What makes you great at late season hunts?

I think glassing is the biggest thing. Like I'm. And it translates from I, I love sheep hunting as well. You gotta be comfortable just sitting on a knob and staring through your optics for like four hours. And I think, I think that's a big part of it. I think a lot of guys will roll up to a glassing point and they'll go, nope, nothing. And they'll within 20, 30 minutes will. And they'll might look like a school bus when he's standing on the side of an open hill. But as soon as they bet up in some junipers like all that breaks up and disappears. You might be scanning right over top of a bull for 45 minutes and then he finally stands up and stretches and you can see that yellow shoulder appear from behind the junipers. And I think that patience behind the glass is a big part of it. I think that's, that's probably the biggest thing. But then also like you said, just knowing their behavior, like they're gonna pull into the mahogany's. They're gonna. Any little flat patch where they can lay down and have they like easy living this time of year. There's a flat bench of juniper that they can water here, feed on this side hill embedding these junipers, they're gonna be there. So. Right.

What, you know what, as far as like timing, like, as far as like, you know, how long do you stay on a knob or whatever? Like how, like, if you like, I don't know, take Utah, take Nevada, whatever. What's your. Like, I want to hit this knob a morning or is it. I want to hit it in the morning and an evening. Do I want to sit it all day? Like, what's your cadence on like glassing knobs?

A lot of it is like morning and evening stuff. I'll break it up trying to keep the sun in the right position, you know, so that especially like paying attention to the temperature. Like it was warm, unseasonally warm. And so those bulls are wearing their thick winter coats. They're going to want to be on the north faces. And so I, I focused on that like, and, and trying to keep the sun off of them. And so I, I usually split it up into morning and evening. But then if like there's one spot in Nevada that it's like this ant hill in the middle of a drainage and you can see Elk All360 around you, any direction and any elevation there could be a bull. And I planned on staying there all day, so.

But there are places you would sit all day and be like, all right, I'm gonna check this.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you ever. I mean, when I was in Arizona, like, it's kind of just gotta balance you. You take, I don't know, half a dozen good glossy knobs. You kind of just bounce between them because like this time of year, Elker moving you, you know, you could watch it for three days and I had places where I would. I watched, you know, for two, three days and third day, like, there he is. Like, you know, there's. I mean, the bowl. Well, I chased for many days. There would be day I found him and then there would be two or three days where I didn't see him. But I'm like, you know, he's there and like, then you'd see him again and just like those micro aspects where it's like you can't see everything and that's like a good, you know, good indicator. A good, you know, reason to like man. You find elk good elk in a pocket. And even if you only see one or two, assume there's more. Assume there's like, you know, if you're seeing the age class you're looking for but not the bull. Like I tend to like put a lot more effort into that. Like double, double click into that canyon.

Exactly. That's that five point that we spotted. So we seen him, my buddy seen him the night before opener. We piled in there, we had three guys and myself. So four of us total opening day looking in there and we didn't see him all opening morning and then opening evening. So I mean, we've been in there for hours and hours. We've been there all day from all different angles. We hiked different. Like my one buddy hiked up this middle ridge that gives you a view of like everything we thought, well then one of us left, drove around and was clear up on the top like four miles away, looking down into it. And right at dark, he spotted that five point. He had moved like a mile and a half maybe and it just rolled around this kind of, it'd be like a south or a northwest facing slope. And he just tucked in on it and, and he was right there like he hadn't moved that far. But it took that many angles and that long for us to even get a glimpse of him again. So.

Oh yeah, that sounds accurate. What's your thought on north face versus south face? Like I think a guy is really hone in on, oh, it's gotta be south facing. You know, you had mentioned something.

What's warmer?

That north face isn't off limits by any stretch.

Yeah, no, A lot of times, a lot of the late season bulls I've helped kill, others have been on the north slope. Like they'll, they'll be tucked into a little thicket of trees that's got the only snow around and, and they're laying in that snow. Like you gotta think, like you're uncomfortable. You get in the truck and you're all buffy and everything. You turn that heater off because you're ready for those Bulls can't turn the heater off. Like they go snow and they. There's countless times I've been walking a ridgeline. You'll see these trails that are just that wide and three feet deep going over the cornice to the north slope. Even on a hard winter, the bulls don't like betting on south slopes. On a warm day, they Gotta, they gotta keep their body temperature low. And so I honestly probably focus more on north slopes because south slope you can cover in that like 10 seconds. So you're like, yep, there's the elk, there's the elk, there's the elk. And north slope, they're going to be bedded and you, you can stare at it for hours and then a bull stand up and you realize there are elk there. So.

Right, right. What's like you look at, I always say the term bucky. You know, we're always told, oh, that looks bucky, you know, bully, we'll call that. What in your mind, if you were like looking at a new area and you're like a late season type stuff, what looks bully to you by that definition?

I always like mahogany's, even though, I mean a lot of times they're just in the junipers or whatever. But elk like mahogany. For whatever reason it is, they, they pull to it. So I look for that, I look for a, for a ridgeline, like a nice north slope with, with some cover that they can bed in and a good south slope that they can feed in. And then you look at the ridgeline, there's a bunch of tracks bouncing that ridge. You know, there's a group of bulls in there. But just looking e scouting, you can see those type of areas. Like you can find a nice pocket on the north slope that leads right, nice saddle dumps right over to a south slope that loaded with grass and some mahogany patches. That's the kind of stuff I key on, key in on and.

Yeah, interesting. So what's, I mean, if we go back to like lessons learned, we were talking a little bit about how you're like, ah, what I said, what's the thing that separates you from everyone else? And you're like, I think I'm more aggressive than most people. What, what does that mean to you? Like when you, maybe you give advice to people, you're like, hey, how aggressive should I be? What's your advice?

100% full tilt, full time.

Is this archery? Are we talking early season or late season or does it matter?

Everything, Everything. So honestly like, so I, I've, I've guided for quite a few years now. And the hunts I struggle the worst on are people that are like older guys and stuff. Like it's no fault of their own. Like they're just older. Like it's, they struggle to move fast in the mountains, especially steep or deadfall or whatever. And it totally erases my style. Like I normally am like jogging. Like I'VE killed several of my best animals from literally jogging. Like, so. My. My last. My early archery bull that I killed off this same unit, same exact scenario, like, to a T. I. I spotted him an hour before dark, and I had to drop off this huge, steep face and climb a big face and get in. And I looked at Brett, my buddy, Like, I'm going. And he's. You think you can make it? I said, I don't know, but I'm gonna try. And I. I jogged down, same thing. Like, I was dry, even, like, dying. I barely made it in time. And then I killed that bull. And I'm. I'm a firm believer in, you miss 100 of the shots you don't take. If I have a 2% chance of going, that's 2% better than if I sit on my butt and look at him till dark. Like, okay, so what.

What is. Where is the line of, like, the older I get, the more I lean into. Like, I did. I was that way for a long time. The more. The older I get, the more I lean into. Like, give. Give it a second. Let it mature. Like, let's see what happens. Because the old me would be like, run out there. And I do think, for the most part, people need to be more aggressive. Like, most people don't understand what it means to be aggressive. I. Maybe I'm, like, just getting soft or fat, one or the other, and, like, my old age. But it's like, oh, let's see what happens here. And sometimes you're right. Sometimes it falls apart. Do you think there's ever a time to, like, let the situation develop and see if, like, the odds increase, you know? And to your point, if it's gonna get dark, we're going like, we're sending it. If I, like, that's. That's a different situation. But I don't know if there's ever a time where you're like, let it develop a little bit.

Yeah. Like, very self. Like, say I see a herd of bulls and they're already bumped or, like, you know, help you. Sometimes they'll just pick up their head and start walking.

Yeah.

Can tell that, like, I can keep up with a walking elk on a flat or a downhill. If those bulls pick up their head and they start walking uphill, I'm like, I'm in shape, and I'm not. I'm not disillusioned to think I can. Cat suckers. Like, they pick up their heads and they start walking up. You're like, I'm gonna watch em and see where they settle down. Right. Almost every scenario I'm going, like. Like, if they're moving and it looks like really low odds, then I'll. I'll sit and watch them. Like, especially if you're alone. Like, then I'm more cautious as far as, like, knowing, okay, if they pick up their heads and just keep walking, I might hit their tracks and I might never catch them. I'm just gonna burn my legs out for tomorrow. And so.

Right.

Most of the time, I just go though. Like, it's very. I don't know, you'd have to about, like, take it scenario by scenario. 95% of them, I'm going. So.

Yeah. What do you think the. The biggest mistake that hunters make is? Like, if you could say, like, man, I wish most hunters would do this. And maybe it's clients, maybe it's just General Hunters. DIYers.

I'll.

I'll let you field the question however you want. You probably have a little bit of both. But, like, what do you think? Like, the. The biggest, like, mistake people make is so physical fitness.

Everyone always wants to be in better shape. You always want to lose that Christmas pounds or whatever. I feel like people don't take that into account enough. Like, there's guys that saw their toothbrush in half, but they've got a freaking kegger on the front. Yeah, man, you got £25 you could lose. That toothbrush isn't hurting you. Yeah, yeah.

That toothbrush ain't the one making a difference.

Ain't no. To call anyone out. Like, yeah, if you like being a little chubby, that's on you. Like, I'm not gonna judge, but I feel like that's a big thing. Like, you gotta take that into account if you're going on one of these hunts. Like, that's gonna directly impact your results. And then aggressive. The level of aggressiveness, I think, is a big mistake. Like, a lot of people will see a. See an animal like, oh, he bedded facing the saddle. I wanna stock circle. Who cares? By the time you turn saddle, he's gonna move, right? Just get there. And then when he looks downhill, like, move in 10 yards. When he looks. He can move in 10 yards.

You know, there's a. There's an interesting thought there, which is, like, if I. If I took 90% of Guy Elk guides, like, very successful elk guides, they.

Are a certain type, right?

They can get around in the mountains quickly. I mean, they might not be. They may not be running marathons, but, like, boys can get around in the mountains. Right. And that's a different type of physical fitness. And like, you know, a lot of guides, they spend a lot of time, like, there's just no replacing time on feet in the mountains. Like, you can't hardly compete with that with a jam or anything. But then you, like. But there's just an archetype, if you will, of, like, guides, good elk cotton guides. And then you take the archetype of, like, the client, right? And the client is like, yeah, probably done some fitness or whatever, but, like, it's not going to be able to push through the mountains hard and fast. And like, I do think that, like, if I looked at a thousand scenarios of guide and client where they weren't successful, I promise you that guide is moving fast. And he can't move fast as he wants to because, like, the client is holding him back. I would say that's a, you know, we'll call it 80, conservatively. 80% of the time, the guide is not successful. It's because he's trying to drag that client around. And if you look at that from, okay, I'm a DIY guy. How can I become more like the guide and less like the client? That's just like, I don't know, it's hard to replace time in the mountains and just doing the thing and be. Be able to do it, but just, man, hiking hills, like, being able to go. But some of that comes into your point of, like, aggressiveness and just, like, make decisions, right? Like, very, very successful elk hunting guides make a decision and they go. They move quickly. They're like, we gotta go now. Like, that, that time. And I do feel like a lot of DIY guys are like, oh, should I. Should I wait?

Yeah, well, yeah. And just no one. So that comes with experience, too. But knowing when it's time to, like, you got to get moving. Like, yeah. Times when, yeah, you can sit at the truck and you can. Okay, this is going to be a good hike. I got to pull this extra Nalgene bottle out of my pack, and I gotta. Oh, I don't want this coat, so I'm gonna swap it for this one. And like, five minutes of fiddling at the truck. That would have been your five brakes going up the mountain, and you would have got there at the time you needed, versus you spend five minutes fiddling, and then you're five brakes. Now you're five minutes late, and that bowl made it over the saddle or whatever. Like, you gotta know when it's time to, like, you just gotta get moving. Like, yeah, Forget like the. The nitpicky and just. Just go. And I think that that's messed me up with. With people a lot of times. Like, there's certain personality types. Like, some people are just flying by the seat of their pants. Some are like, everything's gotta be just so. And there's no problem with that as long as you've got it prepared just so in advance. If you're doing that when it's time to get moving up the ridge, like, you just hose yourself. And so.

Yeah, why is that? I mean, like, I'm the same way. Like, I throw a burlap sack with twine on and like, let's go. We're like, the most important thing is getting there. And then what I have is what I have when I get there. But that feels like a lot of the guides I know, right? But, like, it does feel like there's a type of person who is like, gotta get all my stuff dialed. Gotta have, you know, very gear oriented. Which is like, I don't know, maybe it's the industry sells. Sells us on, like, oh, we need all our gear and. And this strap holds this gear this way. I tell you, look at most the most successful elk guides and like, man, half of them are forgetting their stuff all the time. You know, like, they show up with like, didn't even have a range finder. Like, dang it. You know, those type of things. Like. Yeah, I wonder why that is.

Yeah, I don't know, it's. But yeah, it's definitely a thing. Like, I have a big backpack for a reason. If it's. If it's like the night before the hunt and I'm getting loaded up, then, yeah, everything's tied on. I've got my glass and pad, like on the bottom or whatever. When it's go time, like, I open that sucker up, jump in there, and it'll come out eventually in whatever order it went in and.

Right.

Yeah, there's no time for that on the mountain, so. Dude, 100.

Yeah, you sometimes just gotta get up there. You gotta get to the elk. Yeah, dude, that's pretty funny. Well, congrats on an epic year. Yeah, pretty jealous. Any other advice on late season hunting? I actually had a conversation with a buddy. He was talking about. He called me and he' said because he was getting ready for the muzzle loader and he's like, man, I like, I know how elk move for rifle season. He's like, do you think it feels different from muzzleloader? So for context, we have a December muzzleloader hunt. And I was, you know, we were kind of just talking about elk behavior and stuff. And you know, host rifle. Montana's a little bit different because rifle seasons you get a lot of pressure. And late, late season, that muzzle loader, you get it, it feels more like, I don't know, a Utah late hunt where, you know, it's less pressure and more just like, how do elk behave? Like basically right before they shed or you know, in the winter time. And so yeah, we were just, we were laughing about that and the year bulls kind of made me think of that. It was like, oh yeah, like how do we think about elk behavior late? We, we talked a lot about that. But it's interesting. I love that piece of it. I love trying to find elk very late. You know, they're just, yeah. Trying to chill in deep, dark canyons. And it's super fun hunt for sure.

Just looking at it from their perspective, like they're in survival mode. So easy living, easy travel corridors. You got something to keep you cold, something to feed on, something to hide in. Like find those little micro areas like you're going to be successful.

So heck yeah. And then just cover a ton of them. Cover ground.

Look for the big bulls.

They stand out. I mean that time of year they stand out like a sore thumb. If you can catch them on their feet.

That probably the number one tip for late season is make sure you have good buddies because socks alone and the more eyes, the better. So. Yeah.

Yeah. And the other thing about late season people don't think about is like it gets dark at 5:30 and so there's a lot of wall tent time.

Oh yeah.

Got fire.

That's another one. If, if you do have a lot of wall 10 time, don't be scared to go out and check some spring. Walker Ridge. If there's a ridge line like a knife back ridge that's covered in snow, go hike that sucker in the dark. Like you got a head, you got coats. Like go look for tracks. If there's a million bull tracks at the very end of that ridge that, you know, you need to hit that pocket for a morning or an evening and blast it.

That's really good advice. I mean it's not something you would do in September differently, but like. Yeah. Are you worried about bumping elk at night?

No, not at all. Like I, I've bumped right into a target animal before. And if it's like black like they're, they're used to getting bumped. Like animals get bumped all the time. They're going to move maybe 200 yards if it's already jet black. Now, if it's like a giant bright full moon, that's a different story because for them it's still daylight.

Right.

But if it's a fairly dark night, I don't worry about it at all.

So, yeah, that's kind of the one thing you're looking for is like tracks on a ridge. He's like, if you can find tracks. And that's why, man, dude, hunting storms is so key. If you can get a good storm and then just like be ready to cover as much ground as you can, find those pockets and then you can like hone in on those pockets. But you can find those elk. They should be right there. They don't generally move out of those pockets. But yeah.

Yeah, dude, super cool.

Well, thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate it. Yeah, uh, I guess I'll put a link in the show notes to your. Your Instagram. Check out those giants, dude. Freaking great year. So congrats.

Appreciate it.

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