The October Advantage: Big Bulls, Empty Mountains, and a 58-Inch Giant, Talking Bulls with Gibson Butler

This is the Elk Hunt Podcast, home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody Rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics, and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Tricer. They make gear that's fast, light, and simple, from amazing tripods to bino mounts, panheads, truck mounts, and now even bipods. Tricer makes gear that's fast, light, and simple. I love their gear, and if you're looking for a new system for better glassing, check out Tricer. Head over to the website tricer.com. They make great products and it's just a great company. Awesome dudes, been using the heck out of the bipod, uh, killed a lot of critters with it. Head over to the website, use the code TRO, and you'll save yourself 10% at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Stone Glacier, and tell you what, I've packed out a lot of animals with my Stone Glacier pack this year. The SkyArcher 6400 has been with me to Alaska, British Columbia, Wyoming, Montana, and I love the thing. It's, it's, you know, whether it's a 10-day backpack hunt or your day hunting from the side-by-side. That's what I love about the Stone Glacier. It's minimalist, it's lightweight. You can use it day hunting or you can use it for an alpine backpack hunt. Uh, great product. And Stone Glacier makes an entire suite of hardcore mountain hunting gear. So if you're in the market, head over to stoneglacier.com, use the code TRO. You'll save yourself a little bit of a discount and get yourself some great gear. All right, dude, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, um, you drew a tag.

I did draw a tag.

So you're excited for elk hunting? Yeah. I haven't told anyone, I only drew the general tag this year. That's news to everyone. I don't know, it's really news, but poor guy. Yeah, I don't know. Do you feel like— where do you put Montana general?

Like in as far as like how good?

Yeah, just like as far as like Because my thing would be like, there's a lot of draw tags in Montana that are, in my mind, some of the best draws you can get in the whole country. And dudes are like, "Oh, I drew a general tag." I'm like, "Man, that's a tough hunt." Like, it's just broadly speaking, there's a lot of variations of it, but I feel like general Montana archery, difficult hunt.

Yeah, I think like the generals, especially if you're a non-resident, I think the generals are a tough hunt. And I think Montana is kind of a state that if you want to hunt it a lot, like if you want to, if you want to have Montana be one of the states that's in your rotation, you kind of have to dedicate yourself to it.

Right, right.

Um, that said, I think there's a 350 bull in just about every general unit in the state.

That's true.

But we have a 5-week rifle season. Yeah, makes it tough for them to get big, but the way our public-private lays out, there are places where those bulls get sanctuary and can get to older age classes.

I mean, there's just a ton of private. There's a lot of bulls on private.

Yeah.

You know, it's funny, like, there's a lot of general stuff where big— or bulls get big on big private ranches. You know what's interesting is too, is like, I feel like it's, uh, and I think this is true in some of the draw stuff too, where it's like Ranch— not ranchers, uh, people are buying up big ranches. And we both know a lot of ranches that either are getting hunted or not getting hunted. And keeping tabs on that is like some of the secret sauce, because like all of a sudden you'll have a ranch not being hunted and it like becomes a sanctuary. And then you find out, oh, it's getting hunt— like some outfitters got it this year. Yeah, like I feel like that changes. The dynamic a little bit.

It definitely changes how they move across the public-private boundary. Yeah, for sure. Um, like, I think that especially you see this like a lot out east. Like, if you see like there's an alfalfa pivot a half mile off the road and there's elk on it every night and there's like a couple chunks of BLM around it, the elk know right where the fence line is. Like, like that kind of public-private game is just not really productive. But there's ways around it, like there's other stuff that you can do. Most of that stuff that's like real close to the road that everybody knows about, you can— I think you can pretty much write off. Like maybe check it as you're driving by, but for the most part there's gonna be 4 or 5 guys sitting on the fence line with cow elk decoys and a hoochie mama. Yeah, it's not really a game you want to play.

I do feel like there's a lot of places in Montana where you have like pivots or whatever, and bulls are going way farther than people think. And they're like, I mean, caller data shows it, but it's like they're going 3, 4, 5 miles. And I think people, like a lot of noobs, will be like, oh, they're just gonna go over here and bed.

And like Montana elk specifically tend to go very far to bed, especially out east. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like out here, like in some of the more like western part of the state, more the generals, like if they're feeding on an alfalfa pivot right at the base of the mountain, they're probably not going that far up the mountain to bed, at least in my experience. But yeah, I mean, out east, I don't think it's uncommon for them to go like anywhere from 5 to 10 miles. So like in a day.

Yeah. So I got general— I don't know what my plan is yet. Yeah, we were talking about that, uh, you know, go steep and deep, go back to the wilderness, go— I don't know, we'll see. Um, maybe just buy a landowner tag somewhere.

Yeah, there's a lot of good hunts on the Generals too.

There is.

It's tough to find a real big one.

Yeah, and I think that's kind of— I mean, like, Montana is a great place. You can get a ton of hunting. And I think, you know, you look at most states, like, you're— most guys are stoked to kill 300, 350, 15-inch bull. Yeah, like you take— that's way better in Colorado still, better than most of Oregon still. Yeah, New Mexico maybe be like the— I don't know, the caveat to this, like, yeah, go to New Mexico, pretty sweet hunt. So I don't know, Montana's still good. I don't know, I, I've had a lot of people message me and I do feel like Montana— non-residents in Montana get hung up on like the same 2 or 3 areas. And it's like the same ranges and same like— it's like everyone's kind of going to those places. Yeah, I don't know, it's just like Montana is funny because it's— you kind of select these like mountain ranges, right? And everyone kind of wants like— you look at a map and everyone selects this mountain range or this mountain range. And as I've been e-scouting the last couple weeks, it's like, I don't want to think about mountain ranges, I want to think about it differently, or like trying to find stuff that isn't a mountain range, right? Yeah, just to get away from people, because I think 99% of the battle in any general hunt is how do you get away from people.

That's it, for sure. Yeah, I had a buddy, um, texted me like last week when draws came out and asked how I did, and told him I drew, and asked, asked what he did because he was thinking about hunting out east, and he'd asked me about a couple tags and said he drew, and I was like, oh, what'd you end up putting in for? And he told me, and I was like, oh dude, that's the one that you shouldn't have done. And like, he was like, oh, why? And I was like, I don't know, you like— you want a place that doesn't have 15 rockslide threads about it, you know? Like, yeah, like, like you said, there's just like these pockets that seem to attract I'd say probably 90% of the non-residents, right?

I feel the same way.

Like, they all— seems like they're all kind of looking for the same things. They're like, their cousin hunted there 2 years ago and killed a bull, and they're going there just based on that information. But I don't think there's a ton of guys that are like looking for the anomaly.

Well, you know, the interesting thing about Montana is like, take the General for example, like a lot of states you do pick a unit and it kind of boils it down. So you're like, yeah, I don't know, Unit 63. And if you draw Unit 63, you start like kind of like figuring that out, right? On the general, you have so many units and so much ground, it's like it's hard to boil it down. So you tend to boil it down by mountain range.

Yeah.

And then like just naturally, and then so then you like start to pick that apart, and then like A lot of guys will look at the numbers and then, you know, just looking at population numbers, generally speaking. So it's like, but there's a strong correlation between elk population numbers and hunter population numbers. So like, it's just like you kind of fall into this. I think all, most hunters fall into the same thread of like process of selection for a unit and then like kind of all funnels into the same places. So yeah, I try to like always think outside of the box.

Yeah. And then the elk in those units either end up on private or so scared that they won't bugle and leave the timber in the daylight. So it's like, you're kind of—

yeah, yeah, yeah. So not general, uh, not general, not general, key. Dude, let's, uh, I want to hear the story from your bull last year. Okay, stud bull.

Yeah, yeah, he's a good one. Um, so September honestly was pretty tough, uh, I was only hunting weekends. Um, I'd planned on taking my big time off from like October 2nd to the end of the season. Um, but I was getting out there either Thursday evening or Friday evening every week, and super frustrating. I kept like finding a really good bull or two on like the evening that I'd arrive, and then going, sweet, he's going to be dead by Sunday, and then losing them Saturday and not being able to find them. That happened 4 weekends in a row. And, uh, I got to October and went out there. And did you have any close calls in September? Uh, yes, I did. Um, I got into like within 150 of probably the biggest bull I saw all season. Um, giant, like perfectly beautifully symmetrical 7. Like, I only saw him for 30 or 40 seconds up close, but like, he was giant, giant. Um, and actually, yeah, I think I spent another 2 days trying to find him and never turned him up again. But I was probably too aggressive on that one. Um, I went into this spot and I honestly wasn't really expecting to find elk in there, but I felt like I kind of just had to cross it off the list. I had some cameras in there and had a couple good good bulls on camera, but I had never seen cows in there. There was like elk sign, but it was kind of spotty. And, uh, I parked the truck and hike out on this vantage and start glassing, and a bull bugles like right below me. And I'm like, oh God, my wind's bad, like this isn't good. So I kind of like back up, and it was such hard country to glass because there wasn't like a big elevation point that you could go in and like see into these different coulees. And I just kind of sat back and listened and I got the wind better. And every time one would bugle, which wasn't very often, I would cover like 50 yards or so and ended up getting pretty close. And I, in hindsight, like there was nobody else in there. I don't think anybody else was hunting them. I probably should have just sat on them, but I just like kept pushing, ended up bumping a group of cows. They didn't know what I was. It was like a soft bump, but I think it was enough for them to move. And yeah, I got within like 150 and that bull came out of the timber and I was like, holy shit.

Yeah.

Um, and then the pros and cons of not knowing what you're chasing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I never had, I never had that bull on camera. I had a couple other good ones though, um, but hopefully I can catch up with him next year. Um, and then yeah, October rolls around, um, I was hunting this little piece public, um, that I had seen a big 7x8 on, just like barely working the edge of this public, and, uh, hunted it for 2 days and it was just like raghorns running around being stupid and never saw him again. And, uh, I was like, okay, it's not happening over here. I need to change something up. And there was a spot that I hadn't gone into all season, mostly because it was a real commitment to go in there. Like, you kind of have to burn a day in, a day out. And I had to pack water, and it was, it was just a pain and not something I could do in 2 or 3 days. And hunt effectively. So I, uh, loaded up the pack and went in there, and it was a rough fest. Like, it was wild. Um, like, there was, there was probably close to 100 total in there. Um, lots of bulls. There was probably 2 or 3 bulls in there that I would have shot. Um, there was one 6 that was 350+ but he had snapped off his left main beam like right at the base. Um, and then there was another 6 that was really good and then there was this 7 and, um, it was kind of like that big 6 and the 7 that were the 2, the 2 big dogs in the group and they each had like 30 or so cows. Um, so I watched them, didn't even go on a stalk for 2 days, just watched them. Um, okay, wind was pretty bad and where they were bedding was like in the wide open on top of a ridge, swirling wind, like bull in the middle and then just like a giant donut of cows all around him, like raghorn satellites all over the place. And I mean, I'm, I'm a fan of being aggressive, but that was like, it's like, this is just a recipe for disaster.

Um, and then it's like every day are you watching this bull, you're like, hey, go bed in a good spot, almost like a mule deer hunt.

Yeah, or just like a change in weather or something. But he had so many cows and there were so many satellites, I was like, I just don't think I can do it. Um, and then So it was my third or fourth day in there. Um, there was weather coming, and I was like, I think I had one peak refuel left and like some snacks, and I was out of water. But I knew it was gonna rain that night, so I was like, okay, I can collect some water on my tent, and like tomorrow morning I know I'm gonna have a good wind, I know I'm gonna have weather. I'm either gonna kill that 7, or I'm going to like blow the entire herd to the next county and go somewhere else. So, uh, woke up, um, early the next morning. I wanted to be like on him in the dark. I had a pretty good idea of where he'd be. Um, so I get down within striking distance, like probably quarter mile or so, and it's Yeah, yeah, they're going nuts. It's like raining sideways.

Um, are you seeing anything or you just kind of got close?

It's so foggy that like I can see elk with naked eye, but like to see him through my— like I was cleaning my binos, like I could see for 3 or 4 seconds and then I had to like wipe my lenses. And like, I, I thought at this point I could recognize his bugle, and there was two different groups that I couldn't tell which one was that broken 6 and which one was the 7. And at one point I almost like went a mile and a half in the other direction because I thought the broken 6 was him. But he bugled again. I was like, God, that really sounds like him. And so I stayed put and it finally cleared enough that I could see him. I was like, okay, sweet, that's him. And they start feeding up, going to bed, and they kind of like staged up, um, and the cows bedded down, like, not in a place that they would usually bed. It was just kind of a chaotic morning, and they all laid down in this one spot. And I'm up on this ridge above them, and wind's still good. I'm like, I think I can slip down this coulee. And I, like, measured on onX, like, from this fence, not like a property line fence, but just a pasture fence. That from there to the edge of the coulee was like 150 yards, and they were like closer to the coulee than they were that fence. So I was like, okay, I think if I can get to the edge of there, I'll have a shot. And so I start sneaking around, bump two raghorns at like 10 yards. Scared the shit out of me. I was like, oh God, don't run towards the herd. And they like, thankfully, they ran the other direction, um, and didn't, didn't draw too much attention. I like Slip down into this coulee and I'm like sneaking around like Pink Panther style, like weaving through satellites and spikes. I would like come across a corner and like see a cow feeding out and like take the same two steps backwards and finally got up to this edge and he was on a hot cow and just ranged him real quick at 70 and then he ran off. To chase off a satellite. That cow didn't move, and I was like, okay, and I ranged him again. He was at 95. I was like, no, I'm not gonna shoot him at 95. And then he came right back to the cow and just drew and stuck him. Um, I was like, I was like shaking a little bit on the shot, but I was like shaking in an acceptable range, like, you know, like pretty much like heart, top of lung shaking. And my arrow was like 8 inches back, it still double lunged him. But I was like, God, that was weird. And like, sure enough, I got home and shot my bow at 70 yards, and I was like 8 inches right. So I must have taken a digger, like, whatever, having my bow on my pack or something bumped my sight. Yeah.

So you slipped in, put an arrow through him. Are you, uh, cloud nine? Or like, I mean, like, yeah, did you think, like, this pays you? I mean, like, is that like We were just talking about it, and I was like, dude, that thing's a stud. Even when you text me, uh, like right afterwards, I was like, damn, like, and then we started going through the numbers. Yeah, I think it's surprising, the 58-inch main beams. Yeah, really? Yeah, makes that bull deceiving.

Yeah, like when I was looking at him through the spotter, I like, I figured his main beams were like 52, 53. Um, but yeah, once I saw him on the ground and I saw his right main beam, I was like, whoa, things long. Yeah, then got him home and put the tape on him and I was like, holy smokes, that's—

What advice, like, what have you learned about big bull behavior? Like when to strike, when not to?

Uh, there's a lot of variables to it. Like if you've got a big bull and you know he's going to get pressured, you kind of just have to go for it. Like, I mean, like when's bad, still got to go. Like, so if you don't, somebody else is going to. Um, I, I didn't— I doubt there was anybody else in there. If they were, I never saw them. Um, so I wasn't in a huge rush. Um, October, I think, is kind of a funky time of the year because those bulls can like really start to come and go.

I was gonna ask about that too, because like, so, uh, I guess going back to that, you decided like, hey, let's, let's take October. I'm hit or miss on October. It's like one of those things, there's like, yeah, I'll generally find the bit— I have had many years where I don't find a shooter bull until October. Yeah, the problem with October is like he's there tomorrow, or he's here today and then gone tomorrow. Yeah, because it's like you just don't know. Yeah, he could just walk away.

Yeah, I think—

what have you found? Like, what's your thought on October?

I think it changes a lot bull to bull. I think like, I think one pretty common, like, personality trait for big bulls to have is they're almost like a, like a cranky grandpa that just kind of wants to be by himself. Like, yeah, I think more than people realize, like, you'll hear like Randy Altner talk about this stuff where a giant will come in at night, hook 3 or 4 cows, and go off to some little hidey-hole and won't leave until he has them all bred. And then he'll do the same thing a few times and then call it a season, like, go sleep it off.

Yeah.

Um, I also think that there's big bulls that'll stay with the same group of cows for 3 weeks.

Um, I think those are mostly private land bulls. Yeah, yeah, it's like, yeah, I think it's just, uh, if you just look at like statistically, is a bull gonna survive if he does the same routine, right? No, routine bulls get killed. Yeah, like that's just what it is. Yeah, and you know, bulls get old by being sporadic. They're not smart, they're sporadic. Yeah, they're like, they're wanderers. They're like here to get day. I think, you know, the Randy Ulmer bull, which is like the bull that slips in at night, pulls cows away, he's gonna live to be old too. Yeah. But I also, man, the bulls that just are nomadic or just like, and like, it's funny because like I don't consider it intelligent anymore because I've just watched these big bulls like obviously hot cows going crazy, breeding cows, and then stand up at 11 AM and scream his face off walking away. And you're like, it just doesn't make sense. Like, yeah, like, just watching this bull scream. And like, I— this one big bull I was on, like, I don't know, middle of the day, he just turns and leaves. And like, satellites come back into his herd and he's like screaming at them, but he's just leaving. Yeah. And then like by the time I got a quarter mile away, you just watch him like, yeah, keep going. You're like, what a weird behavior.

Yeah, I think, I think they're a lot like you. Like they just have different personalities. Like they just have different— like a, like a bull that gets to be 360 in the Generals, like that bull, maybe smart, maybe he isn't, but he has something that he likes to do that keeps him alive. Like he just has— maybe it's where he ruts, maybe it's where he winters. Maybe it's something he does during our 5-week-long rifle season. Like, maybe just lives in the same little timber patch and doesn't leave it. Yeah, but they have something that keeps them alive.

You know, there's this, uh, this bull I grew up with. He's relatively famous now, but like, I got to watch this bull get really, really old and really, really, really big. He's Roosevelt. And man, he was nomadic. He was like I still to this day don't have any idea what he did or where he went, but then he got old and was doing dumb things.

Yeah, like got lazy.

Yeah, maybe lazy, but like, uh, he would like Alzheimer's. Yeah, he just started doing weird things that were out of pattern for like— so I watched this bull probably from 4 years old to at least 8 or 9 and like would disappear. He'd show up, drop his sheds in the same place every year on a neighbor's farm. And like no one ever knew. You saw him then and that was it. Yeah. And like even then you'd see him like only at night. He was never in the field in the day. Bulls that were with that group would be out in the morning, but he wouldn't. So it was like, but then as he got really old, like he'd just be right next to the highway, you know, like, what are you doing? And then be like, during season, and like weird things, like definitely changed his pattern. Yeah, and I know how he got killed and like obviously it was like wrong place, wrong time. Yeah, it's just interesting to me, like I feel like they do get maybe lazy or whatever. I— back to that point about like, I think about this with rifle. When you want to find a bull, you almost have to look out of the ordinary because if you're trying to look for everything else, you're not gonna find any H-class, right? You find these like— so in Oregon, generally speaking, you're hunting like very, very big canyons and you're like searching the canyon So similar, like little pockets, right? And so like these elk will hold up, and big bulls like to find small pockets and they live in them, right? Generally speaking, they're away from the numbers because that'll get a bull killed, right? If, if everyone's hunting and they're like, oh, they could hunt this canyon and they're going to see 10 bulls in that canyon, the biggest one's going to get shot out, right? So I think it's not how smart they are, I think it's like the pattern they run, right? It's like something different about that bull. I do think the same thing happens out east. Like, I think enough pressure on a lot of these big ranches, and they all know about it. I think it's the really sporadic weird behavior that saves a bull's life but also gets him killed, right? It's like he's super wandery, but with that comes wandering across the wrong place, wrong time. Like, think about that world record bull. Like, you know, the story behind that, at least what I've heard, is like that bull was on a ranch, whatever, and just wandered off, and dude was hunting him on public, and here comes this like, yeah, 440 bull walking right by him. Yeah, like whatever, just— and it's like those, the same things that are sporadic get them killed. Yeah, which makes big bulls hard to hunt. I do feel like October, man, October's tough because like big bulls just like to walk away. Yeah. Yeah, like to cruise, like to go find new girls.

Yeah, I— yeah, for sure.

Um, but what's your— I mean, there's a reason you chose October. What do you like? Do you like it?

Um, I mean, I feel like the last 4 or 5 years Montana Septembers have been increasingly just kind of hot and dry, and you get like, you know, half hour, 40 minutes in the morning, maybe half hour in the evening if you're lucky. And I guess the temperature starts to drop in October. October, I feel like they're just more active throughout the day. Also, like, you have rifle antelope opening, that takes away a bunch of people. You got—

I've had the opposite. So like, oh really? I have to like, I, yeah, I have to mentally plan for that because I have had that screw up a lot of elk hunts.

Oh, okay. I guess, yeah, I'm not really elk hunting by where there's a bunch of antelope, but I can see how that would be a problem.

Oh yeah, I literally like the night before been like, why, why are people here? There hasn't been people.

Why are they wearing orange?

Yeah, yeah.

And then it's just like, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, you have that happening, so that I think that takes a lot of archery elk hunters out of the field. Like guys' wives drew a rifle bag and they're going to take them out east and go shoot an antelope. You got upland bird opening, I think, the first week of October. You've got ducks opening the second or third week of October. And like, there's a lot of crossover between archery elk hunters and people that like to do those things. And I think a lot of them just go home. And I think guys just get burned out.

Like, you get—

like, you get a snowstorm Um, everything seems like—

yeah, it starts raining. Yeah, and people are like, no, no. Yeah, yeah, especially out east because like most of out east, like the mud just sucks. Yeah, so like guys don't mess— like anyone who's using a camper doesn't mess around with that. Yeah, it's like—

yeah, back I used to hunt a different unit that I would never hunt now, but, um, it was funny, like if there was rain in the forecast, it was just like a train of RVs headed to the highway.

Yeah, I—

nobody wants to get stuck in there.

It's a real deal. Like, yeah, I've gotten squirrely. I think October is my favorite month. I think that, you know, that's like, you know, I saw these— all these proposals for changing the season. Yeah, I was— I was bummed about that because I feel like being able to hunt October is pretty special as a Montana thing. Yeah, not to mention, to your point, like, it's generally speaking, 90 degrees in Montana in most of September.

Yeah.

So I feel like that's the win.

Yeah. And I mean, like, the— from what I understood about that proposal, their, their reasoning for— and people can feel free to message me and correct me on this if I'm wrong— but I read through that proposal and it seemed like their reasoning behind shortening the archery season was to decrease pressure that was consolidating elk on private land. And it's like, okay, number one, you clearly haven't hunted October because there's not that many people out there to consolidate all the elk.

They're already on.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And number two, the elk are on private because of agriculture and water. Like, those are the three things that keep— like, I'm not saying hunting pressure doesn't contribute to it, obviously it does, but it's not, it's not the biggest lever that you can pull. And it's just like, like you said, it's like a really cool Montana thing that we get to hunt in October. And I think it's like It's one thing where like the guys that really love archery elk hunting, archery hunting in general or whatever, that's like a little bone that they get thrown, right? It's like, here, you get these 2 weeks in October and yeah, there's not going to be that many people out there. The guys that are out there are going to be ones that like really love it and are committed to it. I just think it's a cool thing that we have and it would be— yeah, I would probably throw a fit if that went away, but oh yeah.

Throw a full tantrum. Yeah, there's so many, so many times where I do feel like the Monday after September, it feels like you have the woods to yourself. Yeah, and I've hunted places that are pretty busy and been like, man, I just— it's like Sunday happens and yep, we shouldn't talk about this because no, we shouldn't.

Yeah, I mean, everybody's already talked about it. Like, I think if guys are gonna do it, they're probably already doing it by now. But it's fair.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't know.

Are you, uh, if you could— and I don't know, do you hunt out of state much or you just Montana?

Uh, yeah, I mean, like, I've done the Arizona over-the-counter deer thing. I did that last year, shot a buck. Um, and then, I mean, I apply all over, but, um, getting tags— yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The reason I say that is like, you know, I used to be I used to look at Montana's October season as a way to get like, oh, that means I can hunt all September somewhere else. Man, I feel like— and maybe I'm just not that great of a hunter, but it takes me all season to kill an elk anyway. And so like, I feel like I'm less a fan of like, oh, let's go hunt multiple states. Yeah, maybe you do like a 5-day or 10-day rip, uh, if you get a good tag somewhere, and then like still consolidate Montana as like your primary? Yeah, primary, secondary. Like, how do you— like, what's dream scenario if you could hunt two states?

Mm, two states would be like something that either opens before or after Montana season's over. I don't know, I think we're like just so lucky to be able to hunt the places that we get to hunt pretty much every year as residents here. And like, honestly, it's kind of crazy that we get to.

Yeah, see, I'm bitching about a general tag. Like, ah, you suck, you get to hunt every year.

Yeah, like some of the stuff that we can hunt like pretty much every year, like you didn't draw this year, which sucks. I'm sorry, but man, that's a really freaking good tag.

Like, I know I shouldn't complain because there's a lot of people like would kill to have, you know, that tag. Yeah, which they don't. If you're a person that doesn't live in a state where you can resident hunt like that.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's a personal problem.

Yeah, but just like being able to hunt out east pretty much every year, like I would probably take that archery tag over— I mean, maybe like a really good Nevada tag. I would like trade out my—

I've had this, I've had this thought multiple times. Unless it's a top 10% Arizona tag. A top 10% Nevada tag or a top 1% New Mexico tag, I wouldn't— Yeah, stay at home.

Yeah, exactly. And I don't know, like, I'm— so that's kind of always going to be, I think, prioritized over anything else outside of like something crazy like a sheep or goat tag. But if I was going to have 2 tags every year, like dream scenario, it would be like an early season Nevada, something that starts and ends before Montana openers. Or, you know, like, uh, I really— I'm a fan of like some of these late archery tags that states are kind of starting to move to. Like, I think having a regular Montana tag and then being able to go like November, December somewhere else and hunt a late archery tag, I think that's pretty sweet.

Honestly, I would take late archery or late rifle. I love late, like, yeah, I am a huge fan. I think it's super underrated hunting big bulls late. I— something about it, it's so different than what we do in September, but like at the same time it's— I don't know, it's interesting trying to find a bull. Is trying to find a bull in December, November is like a needle in a haystack, right? Whether it's a rifle or bow Like, I do think the rifle is like, all the work is trying to find it. Once you find it, like, it's fairly easy to kill. But like, man, all those tags, like, there's finding that needle in the haystack is the fun part to me. You still gotta cover a ton of ground. Yeah, yeah. I actually put in for the Utah late, a Utah late archery tag. Yeah, mainly because I'm like, I'm never gonna draw.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they probably made that tag just because they saw how many guys were just never gonna draw. Yeah, like, we gotta get them to keep buying points, so give them something.

I know, and like, I kind of said I was gonna like get a late archery in Utah and then just be done with the damn state. Yeah, I've said this multiple times that I'm not putting in anymore. If I drew it though and like you kill a giant on a late archery tag and you tag, you're like, "Might as well go." That would be sweet.

It'd be sweet. Yeah, those late archery hunts look fun. I should be ready to draw Arizona here in the next couple years, so.

Nice. Yeah, you going archery?

Yeah.

Do you rifle hunt at all or just archery?

I do a little bit. I haven't shot anything with a rifle in quite a while. Um, I don't know, I like— my dad was a like a stick bow guy and eventually switched to a compound just because he like destroyed his shoulder shooting a recurve for so long. Um, but yeah, he was like, God, I don't— I can't remember when he ever shot anything with a rifle. I know he has, I just don't— it's, it's been a long time. So I like didn't really grow up rifle hunting. It's not that I like couldn't get into it or think it's cool or fun or anything. Um, I'll probably shoot a bear with a rifle this year, so it's a start.

Yeah, to me it's like, uh, dream scenario: great archery tag and a great late rifle tag. I love late rifle. Yeah, for some reason. Yeah, depends on the tag.

Like, sounds cold.

Well, that's because like Montana's—

yeah, rifle season.

Yeah. Dude, rifle season in Montana is brutal. Yeah, but imagine it's like if you had a limited— I don't know, limited out east tag, right? Pick a tag, whatever. Yeah, where you're actually hunting big bulls. Big bulls, not lots of bulls. Yeah, different. I don't know, I like both. Okay, so what's, um, what's your biggest like I would say like, here's what most people make the mistake of. Here's what I've learned. Like, I feel like you hunt pretty open country. This could be an open country question, it could be an any elk hunting question. What is like the one thing people suck at or screw up?

Um, I think people don't understand elk densities and how you have to change your tactics when you're dealing with a low density population. Like, prime example, this was the only, the only other hunter I saw all season. It was opening weekend and I was parked on the road. I was like 10 yards off of it and this guy stops and he was like, how's it going? I was like, good, what's up? And he's like, oh, you look like you're elk hunting, you finding anything? And I was like, not a thing. I had a 3.6 dusty bull in my scope and talked to this super nice guy. I talked to him for a bit and, uh, you know, he and his girlfriend were walking around with a hoochie mama all morning. Like, yeah, I mean, like, you're in an area where like 99% of the country does not have elk in it, and the ones that are there moving a lot. And you just have to— like, this year, like, I set the goal of killing a big bull and I put my calls away and said, maybe I'll see you later, but I'm not touching you this year. And I'm actually going to change that next year because I had a few situations this year where it would have been handy to be able to bugle in the dark. But yeah, I kind of think in eastern Montana, when you're learning it, it's good to just like draw a hard line and go like, no calling. I'm hunting them like deer.

That's okay. I want to circle it. I want to get into that, but I want to answer the question first, which I actually agree blows my mind. Some people still walk around with hoogie bombs. I thought we like shamed them out of the country, but apparently not. We need to work on that.

Yeah, well, he was like, uh, yeah, we were in here last deer season and saw a couple bulls and decided to apply for it.

And I was like, that feels pretty accurate. Yeah, I had a very similar situation. Like, just walk up the hill, was watching this bull. He's only like mid-330s, but like good bull. I don't know, it was like actually as I was talking to him was on the fence of telling him whether it's bull or not. But dudes are like, yeah, I don't know, we bugled all the way up and down this thing. I'm like, it is— first of all, it's 20 mph wind right now. Maybe, maybe if there's another within 100 yards of you, like that would have worked, but it's like there's zero chance. Yeah, like you're gonna— yeah, to your point, I— man, that's crazy that the whole calling thing is still— I thought we figured that out.

I also feel like, dude, no, I think everybody's just watching Born and Raised and Phelps on YouTube and they like don't really take that into consideration. Like everybody wants to call bulls, which great.

Like, yeah, that's crazy. The other thing is like, I think the number— the amount of ground you have to cover to find bulls would surprise people. And it's not that I don't think calling would work, and I do think that like maybe calling at night would work, but like just the amount of ground you have to cover is per— like a bugle tube is not going to do it, right? Like you have to be glassing, yeah, like miles upon miles, yeah, um, to like find out, to get into elk, right? And like, I think to your point people watch YouTube, they say like, oh, here's how you elk hunt, let's apply that. The reality is, is like, it's just very different. I also do feel like, and I think this would be true for, call it Western Montana, anywhere really, the assumption that elk are behind every tree. Yeah, the assumption that even like, I don't know, like every basin has elk. Every basin doesn't have elk. No, it's just a hard fact.

Yeah.

And I think once you figure that out, you're like, oh. And so I cut my teeth hunting Roosevelt's, which is like you could cover 20 miles and you might cross one. And so like, it's very similar, absolutely completely different, but also very similar in the way you hunt eastern Montana, which is like you have to just cover a lot of ground. Yeah. I think if I could get one thing to people in people's heads is like understanding that concept. You may watch a video on YouTube and these guys are into elk all the time, but they're like, just understand that they cut that. Yeah, that was the one day.

Yeah, it took 7 days to get that 20-minute clip.

Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I think, I don't know, I think they kind of, to your point. Okay, so back to, um, the other piece of that, which was, um, I don't know, like this entire concept. When you think about, I don't know, covering ground, like how, how, like how are you like, I want to say like searching for over east, not scouting, but like when you think about like how, how much ground you have to cover, you know, you're talking about like little spots covering lots of miles, like how, without giving too much away, how do you like think about the area in which you hunt? Because the, the reason I asked that, kind of a follow-up to this, is like a lot of guys will come to me and say, okay, um, here's my plan to hunt here and here. I'm like, that's a day. Your whole week. I think that's the next step is understanding how much you have to cover. I don't know if you have any insight into that, or like—

Yeah, I mean, like, are you talking like going into a unit, like no experience there.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. Um, well, before you leave the house, actually, like before you even think about, like in the offseason, you should be researching. And I'm not going to say too much, but I'll just say that there's— you can find stuff online that like should not be public information. Like, like you can get a really good starting point before you get in the truck to leave home. Um, and then once you get there and you have a few different starting points, I think you just kind of need to rapid-fire through those until you find elk. Like, find the best vantage that you can look at a place that you're interested in, look at it for a morning. If you don't see anything, buzz to the next one. Do that in the evening. If you don't see anything there, buzz to the next one. Do that the next morning. And Like if you do that enough, you're going to eventually find something. Like you got to have good glass, you got to have a good tripod. Like there's a few things that you need to have to be able to do that. But yeah, you should, you should be spending a ridiculous amount of money on fuel.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Spend money on diesel.

Yeah.

When you think about looking at new areas, you know, you had talked— we had talked a little bit about this, like lots of elk versus little amount of elk. Mm-hmm. Now there's you and I who are shopping for the 1% or the 5%, whatever you want to call it. What advice would you give, like if you were like, I don't know, let's call you a 101 hunter, I'm trying to get to the 201, like, you know, kind of figuring out whatever. Do you lean towards more elk or less elk?

Personally, I— personally, I'm going to lean towards less elk. Number one is because elk attract people, like, just like we were talking about earlier, like the few units in the Generals that have the most elk happen to be where all of the non-residents go. So like you're kind of looking for Like if you want to be like on the leading edge of like having places before they're discovered, you should know where, where established elk herds are and like what are the offshoots of that. Like if these elk are growing in population, like where could these little offshoots of that herd be going?

And there's ways to figure that out, but The thing to me though, like, just to kind of reiterate your point, which is lots of elk doesn't equal lots of opportunity because lots of elk equals lots of people, which equals screwed up scenarios. Yeah, like elk that don't talk. Like, if you really want to like see elk behavior, like, even if you want to call an elk I think a lot of people want to bugle an elk, they want to call an elk. Even if you want that, more elk does not almost ever equal that. Yeah, it almost always equals quiet elk because there's too many people. So you're like, best case scenario, you're trying to find elk that aren't molested in some way so they still act like elk. Yeah, and maybe that's just like generally speaking across the board, elk tend to like second they get pressure, they stop kind of doing the things you want them to do. So like, I'm always trying to find unmolested elk.

Yeah, I mean, like, guys, like, now it seems— I mean, to preface this, like, the hunting where all the elk are and all the people are, like, that was me 5 years ago because like my— it was like classic scenario, like my dad hunted this drainage killed a few bulls in there. And that was where I, like, when I was 18, 19, first started elk hunting. And I was like, God, I'm just like getting so close. And then people screw it up every time. Like, it's just terrible. And finally got out of that rut. Um, but it's like guys think, um, especially now that going deep, like, you're like, you get X amount of miles away from the trailhead and you're going to have elk to yourself. Like, dude, I had a buddy last year that went into a spot. I want to say it was like 7.5 miles and like not easy miles. There was 3 tents in the same basin. As much as I mean, Like, you just kind of figure out— have to figure out what is attracting people. And like, if I want to hunt with that many guys, I'll hunt right next to the road. Like, I—

it's a balance. So like, anytime you choose a spot, and I talk about this in East County, like, everything is a balance, right? Like, we go for low, low populations because we get age class, right? Well, we get no people and we get age class. Like, that's kind of like What we're looking for is age class. If you want at-bats, you shouldn't look for age class. Yeah, you should look for unmolested elk, which is still a balance. So like, let's say 15 miles into the wilderness, you're gonna get into like maybe no people. Like, let's say 25 miles in, you're gonna get into no people. The problem with that is like your at-bats are still as low as hunting right here behind Bozeman. Yeah, because what happens is that those are— anytime you have wilderness, it seems very low populations, right? And so like, your logistics are so much harder that it's like you have to, you know, travel miles, you have to move camp, you have to do all these things versus, you know, say, I don't know, I'll hunt the canyon, right? If I hunt the canyon, I can drive to a different trailhead every day, and either I get into elk or I don't. And maybe there's people, but like for the most part I can cover a lot of ground because I have this cool thing called a vehicle. And like this has happened in New Mexico where it's like you go super deep and the problem is that you have one herd of elk and you're chasing this one herd of elk for 6 days, right? And they might move 4 or 5 miles and it's like kind of a pain every time they do that.

Yeah.

And or it's like I could just go mess with you know, 5 different herds of elk when I'm from my truck. It's a balance because the 5 herds of elk tend to have other people, and like maybe they get bumped depending on how many tags are in the unit. But like, it's never as easy as like, well, if I go deep, I'm not gonna have people. Yeah, you know, it's like you might get unmolested elk and they want to act like elk, which is super cool when it happens. But at the same time, like, you have this other problem, which is like like now either there's 3 of your best friends or yeah, it's like you're, you're having to go miles or like you bump them and then what? Like you, yeah, you go, they're low if they're low density. So I guess the point of that is like it's always like a balance. You can have a lot of elk and a lot of people, which is going to create more problems. You can have a low number of elk and maybe no pro— like no people, but like there's low numbers, so you got to be able to cover a ton of ground. So like, I don't think there's any— like, maybe on like 20-point tags, those are great. But for the most part, I, I feel like it's just kind of like you're— it's a balancing act.

Yeah, yeah. Um, couple things on that. I think if you want to go deep and hunt by yourself and probably have some good hunting, probably find elk Now I think you kind of have to go into grizz country. Like, I think that deep in grizz country still kind of equals no people. I think that deep in a range that still has grizzlies but is not historically known to have grizzlies, you're going to be with— you're going to be like my buddy was with 3 other tents in the same basin.

Yeah, you know, the grizzlies really keep the non-residents out.

Yeah, yeah. And they are— they're still always the ones that stumble into them. This is true. It's you guys from Iowa shot them with 9mm. Damn, again? What are they doing?

I mean, yeah, I mean, like, the Gravelies is a great example. Yeah, dude, dude's stumbling around with grizzlies everywhere. Yeah.

And yeah, that's— the Gravelies is kind of a weird anomaly because there is grizz freaking everywhere over there, right? And there's still just tons of people and non-residents. But the thing about the Gravelies is there's frickin' roads everywhere. And like, you can't really— there's like some places where you can get deep, but there's not many. And I think the ones that are there attract people.

But yeah, yeah, I feel like the Gravelies and the Little Belts stacked with roads. Dude, and that's stacked with non-residents. The Little Bells is probably worse because they don't have like any grizzlies. Well, they do have grizzlies, but like, yeah, they're not, not officially. Yeah, yeah. Uh, dude, those places just get loaded with people.

Yeah, yeah, they're everywhere.

So when you used to hunt, like, okay, so you used to call— I actually have only known you as like an open, open country guy. But you used to do more elk calling?

Yeah, I mean, like, hunting the Generals, like, I mean, it's funny, like, my dad was like, my old man was like anti-call.

Oh really?

Yeah, yeah. So he was like, like, when I first started elk hunting, he was like, like, glass them up and just like try to get in front of them. He was like, that's the protocol. He's like, he's like, stick to the plan. He called it the running W. He was like, just go in, you're not gonna catch up to him, bump out, go on again. And he's like, you're going to want— yeah, he was like, he was like, you're going to want to puke by the end of it. But like, if you just stick with it, you'll get a shot. I was like, okay. And so I like started doing that. And then I, I'm going to call it a mistake. I made the mistake of like starting to watch Born and Raised and Phelps and started calling more. And I did like, I've called in plenty of elk, but like I've heard you say it a thousand times, when all you have is a hammer, all you see is nails. Yeah, it's just like you find yourself just like stress bugling, like, where are they? You know, you're just like, you don't know what else to do, and you're just kind of running around bugling and yeah, probably just scaring elk every time. Um, and yeah, I mean, like 2 years ago after I killed my bull, I called him in and I I, I was just like, that was after I'd come back from my knee injury and I was just like, you know, this, like, I've had a lot of hobbies. Like, I love to fish. I love to bird hunt. Used to ski a lot. And I just kind of went like, man, this is like my thing. Like, everything else can kind of go by the wayside for a while. Like, all of my spare time and energy is going into this thing. And that's kind of how the trying to find bigger bulls in eastern Montana thing came about. But, uh, yeah, I don't know, like, calling is effective with unmolested elk, and it's effective if you're really good at it on pressured elk. Like, a guy like you, I think that you could probably go into a heavily pressured unit in Colorado and, and just like softly cow call right next to the bedding area for 17 hours, and eventually one would come out and stick them. But like, most guys aren't going to do that. They're going to be like, oh, I watched Corey Jacobson hike 17 miles and bugle 3,000 times, so I'm going to do the same thing and it's going to work. And it's like, they don't understand that a guy like Corey Jacobson is literally doing 17 miles a day bugling every 100 yards, and like, eventually one pipes off. But Good God, that guy's walking past a lot of elk. Like, yeah. So yeah, I, I still think it's really popular for guys to call, and I would, I wouldn't, I don't think there's anything wrong with calling, but like, you know, maybe try glassing them up before you go call at them. Yeah, you may as well know where they are, right?

Like, if you can.

Yeah. Well, which is funny if it's glassable country.

Yeah. Well, and that's kind of the thing I was going to say is that I feel like now with the popularity of e-scouting, everyone is like turning towards glassable country. Yeah, like, you know, like it's kind of the popular thing. It's the next backcountry, which is my concern. Yeah, everyone want to go in the backcountry, like, oh shit, it's hard, it's not that great. Like, these dudes doing open country stuff, like, I want to go do that. And even my buddy Travis, good friend of mine, and he's like, you know, hunted a bunch of stuff. And he's like, he hunted, I would call, central Montana, and it was like, oh my God, glassing's the way to go. So much easier. I was like, yeah, like, I mean, the downside of that is like, I feel like when you get to like, let's call it moderate, like open country is like a new level playing field where it's like you have to be really good at figuring out where elk are. Yeah, but like moderate glassable country, everyone knows the glassing points, and like it's like a different— it's the same competition but like different, right?

Yeah.

Whereas put me in, I don't want to say Northwest Montana, but like everything is like unglassable, then like it's kind of a strategic advantage again, right? So like I feel like the middle ground, which is like it's still elk country, using air quotes here, because non-elk country is very difficult, right? Like, we're talking could be 50 miles between herds of elk.

Yeah.

And that's very difficult to figure out. It took me a long time. The, the middle ground where it's like open enough to glass, I feel like that's getting hammered with dudes probably glassing all the same things.

Yeah. So, um, yeah, I can get on board with that. That's probably right.

Yeah, I know. Like, I Do we earned it last year? We like, you know, we got down private and it was the hardest hunt I've ever had. Like, just like moving back to like cold calling and you're like, what a ripoff. Yeah, this was easy. I was so stoked on private and I was like, we're gonna have to earn a 5-point boys. But like going back to like cold calling days, right?

Yeah.

And just like setting up and calling like, ah, you have to figure 99% of dudes are just trying to kill an elk. Yeah. Uh, and I, I would say like trying to kill a 6-point, right? Called in a lot of bulls, like we called in bulls and none of them were sexy. Like we got into like 1 or 2 good like little calling fests, but it was like very classic what I would call like my old Idaho days where it's like elk are gonna do what elk do. They don't care about you, man. Just trying to follow them. Yeah. But like, it was fun. I haven't called in a long time, and last year we did. I would say, yeah, it was successful. Like, but the, you know, like the bull Jared killed, never said a peep, came in quiet. It's kind of a cool like 5-point. But like, that still works. Yeah, and I feel like maybe people— I don't want to say poo-poo it, I don't know that like the Corey Jacobson— I should have Corey on and see, like, I would love his opinion on like, hey, does it still work to do the same style? I used to like—

oh yeah, works for him because he's like a marathon runner. He's gonna just cover more country than anybody else in the world.

But I used to be like 100% was that way. And like, I don't know if it's like just if you grew up on Roosevelt's and— but like, I would— but dude, in 10, 11, 12, there was always another elk. Like, you could just like go. You, you didn't care about bumping out. Yeah, because like you knew 4 more herds and it was like, all right, let's just go. Like, let's go mess with this one. And like no one else was messing with them. So it was like, dude, I remember being in Idaho and like having 5 or 6 different herds and just like totally screwing up each one and just like having a rotation. Yeah, like it was just like Oh, there's a herd down here. Like, you would just— you would be so aggressive because it didn't matter.

Because why not?

Why not? Like, it was like, I don't know, there wasn't really the, like, you know, when you get out east, you're like, don't screw this up. Oh my God, they're all in public.

Oh my God.

And you're like, you kind of tiptoe, right? And you're like, you want to tip toe. It's got to be perfect. The wind's got to— everything's got to be perfect. Dude, in the old days, it was like just run in there, like, let's just see what happens.

Guns blazing.

Guns blazing. We're totally gonna screw it up. Like, cool. And I don't know, I feel like back in those days the elk would just go right back to where they were. Yeah, there's like, you chase these elk. Yeah. And then the next morning they're in the same spot screaming. Yeah, let's do it again.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, like there's all this talk about hunter numbers and whether they're going up or down or not, but like one thing is certain, there's a whole lot of more people archery elk hunting and calling.

Yeah.

And yeah, I mean, they get accustomed to that.

Yeah, it must.

Yeah.

Uh, you know what, I don't know, I still think it works. I will say that. Like, yeah, last year, one of the first days, like, uh, Travis was with me, bulls start piping off. I mean, there was— it was fun to go back and like try calling again.

Yeah.

And that's I mean, not open, open country, but like edge of open and timber. And we had this bull, and I was like trying to just like walk Travis through some scenarios or whatever. So I get up on this ridge way before dark, or before light, and bull pipes off. And I could just tell, small bull, he's moving. I was like, old me would have like tried so hard to run that bull down.

Yeah.

And I was like, let's just wait and see what happens. Happens, right? And this bull pipes off again. I was like— and like, now you understand, you're like, okay, let the bull come to you, right? I don't know, we sat there 10, 20 minutes, like, he's just coming up, coming up. I was like, this kind of worked. Let's just see if we can like negotiate him a little closer to us, right? And we like do that and like play it, play it, calling pretty sporadically. Old me would have like ran at the bull, tried to force it, and it was We— well, one of the things about that was like, as we were going from the high point down to like kind of get where this bull was, you notice a lot of sign. You're like, oh, these elk are coming to here. This obviously is where they've kind of been hanging out. So we just kind of keep working this bull, keep working this bull, and this bull comes right all the way up to us. And I was like, yeah, it was like mid-340s bull. Yeah, great bull. Came right up kind of in the area. It actually like went right by Travis, which is kind of dismissed, you know, just happens. And I was like, I don't know if I called that bull in or I was just calling from where he wanted to be, you know. Yeah, that's the true lesson. To your dad's point, like the running W, right? Like it's 100 times easier to call the bull where he's going anyway.

Yeah.

Than it is to try to like move him way. Old me was like, feels like I was always chasing bulls up the mountain trying to call them back.

Yeah.

And you're like, I don't know, figure out where they're trying to go, just be there. Maybe you don't even need to call. Maybe it's like, maybe that's just like, you get older, you understand elk, where they're going, what they're doing.

Yeah.

And you can be there without saying a word.

Yeah.

And the calling was kind of irrelevant because I do feel like old me, man, was like find him in the middle of the night, try to get in striking range, and then try to like follow him up the mountain. And like, so much extra effort.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know, it's— one thing with calling that I will say is like, the first time I called a bull in and tried to shoot him, I don't even know if I looked through my peep sight, honestly. Like, there's just Like, I wouldn't do that now, but your first time shooting at a bull elk, like, you're going to be losing your mind. And there's so much that's out of your control when you're calling, like how the bull comes in, when you need to stop them, like when you need to draw your bow. And you can just control so much more when you're finding them and then stalking them.

When you stalked up on your bull this year, do you feel like you're like all right, let's just execute.

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah, it is interesting when like— I call it like ninja, where it's like the bull doesn't even know you exist in the world.

Yeah.

And you're like— I don't know, it's weird because I think like the first, I don't know, dozens of bulls I shot were all called in, like me personally calling them or whatever. And then you like sneak in on a bull that has no idea you're there. To me it was like felt like cheating. Yeah, it was like, this bull doesn't even know. Yeah, which is like so much easier to execute a shot.

Yeah, just take your time and settle that pin.

Yeah, yeah.

I would actually, when I popped up over that edge and I like ranged him, he ran off and came back. I was like, I had just like put tension on my string draw on my bow, and I like looked to my right a little bit, and every single cow in the herd was staring at me. I was like, oh God. This is about to explode. I gotta get this done, which I hate that feeling.

Yeah, you feel rushed.

Yeah, and I, I didn't really even feel rushed just because I knew, like, they didn't know what I was. They just saw, like, saw me draw my bow and pop up, but he had no idea I was there. Like, all of his attention was on that hog cow, so I wasn't too worried about it.

Punched one in there and Yeah, is your go-to, like, back to open country tactics, I feel like the standard strategy is like get 60 yards from a hot cow and wait. Is that kind of your MO?

Yeah, I mean, I'm like, I don't know, I guess I'm kind of like talking like I know a lot more than I do. Like, I've only killed one big bull in eastern Montana. Um, I think if you have a consistent wind, I think that's a great move. Um, that said, winds are rarely consistent in eastern Montana. Um, I don't know, I think my favorite is probably transition stuff. All right, like where you can just kind of see where they're going and get in front of them. And like those— I say those elk were bedded, like most of the cows were bedded, but they were like ready to get up and move, you know, they weren't going to stay there all day. They're if I hadn't come in there, they probably would have been up and gone within 10 minutes.

Do you like morning versus evening?

Probably morning. Well, I don't know. I like that in the evening, a lot of times the wind has died down. You get a consistent thermal. I don't know, maybe I just like sunrises.

Mornings are hard because elk— I'm trying to think of the last few bulls. Oh yeah, 50/50. Yeah, actually I kill them more in the morning in the last 5 years. Um, man, yeah, I feel like mornings are tougher, but like at the same time, yeah, yeah.

I mean, cutting them off in the evening as they're coming to feed, I think is a great move. But I guess same can go for them headed up to bed in the morning.

You know, the problem I've always had with like headed to bed is like, it's like herding cats. Mm-hmm.

Your guess is especially when there's chaos and there's just a frenzy.

And yeah, any— I maybe I suck at it, but like it just feels like it's never the same thing twice.

Yeah.

And I feel like I chase them more than I'm like— you're just trying to keep up.

Mhm.

The whole like moving 10 miles thing is very difficult. Yeah, yeah. Learned that the hard way. It's like you got to like just guess the first 3 miles and then like start there, cuz otherwise, I mean, God, yeah, at that point, you know, that early, even if you know exactly where they're feeding it's like, yeah, you could be way off. So yeah, I don't know, it's very difficult. I feel like the mornings are super hard. I've had a lot of luck, um, I would say random luck, literal luck, in mornings in chaos situations. Like, a lot of things have like unfolded. But as far as like target bull behavior, very difficult.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do feel like mornings are a lot of times more chaotic than evenings. In the evenings, it almost seems like they're kind of in a rush to get to feed. Like, they're almost like beelining. But mornings, they've already fed, like done most of their feeding for the day. And if there's enough chaos going on, there's just— you can get away with so much. Like, you can run across the wide open 200 yards from them and probably not going to screw anything up, right?

You know, and the evenings feel more— I would say I would agree with that.

Like, yeah, like they're more focused.

Yeah, cows seem super alert. Yeah, cows seem not alert. I think that's accurate. I don't know, I'm about to like go both ways. So yeah, either way, uh, cool, man. I— yeah, pretty epic. We actually— so we'll shout this out, um, you wrote another blog. You did a blog for us before.

Mhm.

Put it on the website. We're going to do another one.

So I got it.

I got one. I'll put it up with this or whatever.

Sweet.

If you want to hear some insights.

Yeah.

Yeah, we'll put that up as well. So put links in the show notes as well. Yeah, I don't know. Anything else? Good luck this season.

Thanks, man.

You too.

Good luck in the Jennies.

Yeah, Roboden. Alrighty guys, thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's 100% free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out. Links in the show notes, or you can check our website, www.elkhunt201.com.