Forgiveness Over Speed: Jared Miller's Archery Philosophy

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This is the Elk Hunt podcast. Home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics, and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Real quick. Before we get started in the podcast, I'm going to tell you how you can win a $10,000 Elk Vouch voucher from Hunt and Fool Adventures. This voucher is good for a landowner tag or a fully guided hunt or a credit to whatever. So if you guys want $10,000 for next elk season, you might want to listen up. So for the last three years, I have been building a smart watch for hunters. I was pretty frustrated with the smart watches out there, and I thought we could do better, and turns out we can. I'm not going to get into all the details if you want. If you're a smartwatch person, you'll, you'll, you'll love this product, trust me. Go check it out. But we're teaming up with Hunt and Fool, and if you go hit the pre sale on the Reckon Founder series watch right now, you and use the code hf, you're going to be entered in to win this Hunt and Fool giveaway. So it's a $10,000 Elk voucher, good for landowner tags, good for full hunts, whatever you want. So if you're a smartwatch guy or you've ever thought, man, I am looking for a new watch, I highly recommend going and checking it out right now and put your name in the hat for $10,000 Elk Hunt. All right, thanks, guys. Welcome to the podcast. How we bet?

Thanks. Good man.

Good elk season.

Great off season. Yeah, it was short for me. I got two full days of elk hunting in.

That's right.

Normally it's like a 10 or 15 day grind. This year was two days of action packed.

Dude, that film turned out so good. Like, it was one of the better films. I like, hate to promote it because I don't want. I told my buddy, I was like, I don't want to promote open country. Open country Elkhart. Everyone's gonna watch that film and be like, everything I'm doing sucks. That looks way better.

It looked really good, for sure.

Yeah, you guys are like hunting elk on Mars, which is crazy there, like, was it. That was like the most opposite of elk country I've ever seen in my entire life, by the way.

Super weird, man. There's like, yeah, whatever is going on with elk right now. They're just expanding into everywhere.

Yeah.

Like it's.

Yeah, yeah, that was, that was crazy. Yeah. Back up. Let's say I wanted to. Actually want to talk about rifle a little bit. We'll get to that eventually. But you're known as like a, a great shooter, a marksman if you will. Are you. Would you consider yourself a rifle oak hunter or an archery elk hunter? Do you shoot rifles and then hunt elk with a bow?

Yeah, I'd prefer if my goal every year would be to shoot an elk with my bow and then just rifle hunt mule deer the rest of the year. Like ideally I'm not rival on an elk if I can help it because rifle hunt and elk is way harder than archery hunting in my opinion. Wait.

Oh, it's, that's so funny. And I think this is very Montana mindset because like people, I laugh when people say, you know, oh, bow hunt elk, not rifle because it's, you know, rifle's too easy. I'm like, you've never hunted Montana rifle hunting elk in Montana, it's terrible.

Dude, it's so hard. Like you're gonna have, except for this fall, like we didn't have any winter to speak up. But normally like you're out grinding in a whole bunch of snow. It's super cold. They're in some, they like stay in some savage spots until they're absolutely forced out. And so then you're, you know, pushing through waist deep snow to get to them or whatever. Yeah, it's, it's not that I dislike it. Like, I honestly, like, I like that type of hunting, but I'd rather pack out a mule deer from that than an elk, if I'm being honest.

That's fair. That's fair. Yeah, I do, I love, I don't, I love rifle hunting elk. I don't love Montana rifle hunting elk. I, I mean, I love grinding for elk late season. One of my favorites. Like pretty. I. Now if I could have it my way, I would have all of September to hunt Montana, like you know, epic all September archery and then have like a really cool late, like, honestly like a Nevada tag or a New Mexico. Like somewhere where you just like really gotta earn it.

Yeah.

And like, I don't know, similar to how you hunt mild deer but you know, lots of miles, lots of big, you know, looking in nasty little cracks and small canyons and stuff or big wolves. Like that's like, if I could have perfect season, it'd be like one of each.

Yeah, it's great. It is cool. I, I did, I hunted Idaho a couple years. Got a Rifled in their rifle tags, I think normally open like October 15th, so it was cool. I'd rather hunt elk in Montana and then go over there in October the next day. Yeah, it was great, dude. It was pretty. I killed one over there. Like SG film was pretty sick. And yeah, that was a super fun hunt. But I, I totally agree with you. I like, I, I like the grind. Right. Late season grind for sure.

Okay, so Avert and I were talking about this, but like Wyoming. So I went to Wyoming October 1st. Like sometimes I don't really get heavy into archery hunting to October 1st, and I had a rifle tag and it's like, it's really cool. Feels like cheating, but it's really cool.

Are they bu. Still?

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Whoa.

Yeah, like I. Yeah, we slid in bulls like chasing satellites off, ends up chasing a calf, gets over stuck in a different herd and like I had to like move, you know, and it was funny. Like I shot my bull like 488, I think. And it was. And it was like, this feels like cheating. Like, just bull screaming, going nuts. And I was like, I guess this one's dead. Yeah.

Yeah. Nice.

Because, like, I think the cool thing about this total tangent here, but the cool thing about rifle elk hunting is finding them. It's not shooting. You know what I mean? Like, I like shooting rifles. Nothing against it. It's just like the cool part about elk hunting is like grinding out that bull, that needle in the haystack, right? Like, you're trying to find. And when you do, like, you, you know, you search and search and search and like, finally catch a glimpse of them in the timber. And then like, you know, it's like, oh, found him. You know, it's a stud bowl. Like, that's the cool part. So as. As cool as Wyoming is and like, I think everyone should have that experience. It's like, you know, that was more like September where it's easy to find them and elker bugling. You're seeing herds out in the open, you know, like, it's very different.

Yeah, I'm sure it was great to experience. Doesn't necessarily scratch the itch of that, like, late season grind.

No, totally. And I think that's a really good. Yeah, it's a great way to look at it because it was like, it wasn't. It's not what I think of when I think of rifle hunting. I don't know if that's just my mentality, but like, when I think of like a rifle elk hunt, I think it's like, yeah. When I went to Arizona a few years back, that is like the most hard grind of a hunt, you know, like that. Yeah, it was like, to the point, like, borderline not fun because you're like, I saw like five elk that trip. You know what I mean? And be like, you see one bull four miles away and you're like, get in there, search for two or three days, maybe catch a glimpse of one. You know, like, you're like, every couple days you're seeing elk.

But, like, that'd be rough. Yeah, it's not far away from like a late season grind here either. Like, I've spent days and days in the mountains and not seeing elk in the minute when you find one. Like, if you're up high, steep and deep, right? Like, yeah, probably gonna find a good one.

Well, it's kind of like mule deer, right? Like, I mean, sure, you go to Colorado and like, tons of people and you're seeing bucks and like, you're picking through herds and like you're like, okay, whatever. Versus hardcore backcountry Montana mule deer hunt. Or like you're going into a place where you might see a deer, but if you do see a deer, it's going to be a good one.

Yeah, yeah.

And then you're like, you see that one group of three does and you're like, oh, this is it. This, we did it. You know where it's just like, if you saw three does in Colorado, you'd be like, more deer.

Yeah.

You know, like it just wouldn't process the same. But like you're in some gnarly country in Montana and you see a pocket of does. Like you're, you're like your hopes and everything. You're like, oh my gosh, it's about to happen.

You already see a buck 100 there.

You're just convinced that it's like gonna be a joke.

Yeah, yeah, it's great, man. That, that's. That rifle season grind is super fun. I didn't get as much of it this year, but yeah, the, the archery side of things. Something about chasing elk with a bow, like running an arrow through him especially. Get close, dude.

Let's talk about your freaking hunt. So you guys filmed a. A hunt for Matthews.

Yeah.

Which you were saying, like they sent you the bow like right before.

Yeah. You get the bow like a week before season. And I've like, I'm buddies with Brett saying, dude, like I know he's got bows like two days before at times. Right. And like there's a cool video that stick up without I think. No. Was it Matthews? It must have been Matthew's proving ground. But it was Brad Christensen and Brett. That was like a fun. And I remember they had. They were like not painted bows and they were.

Oh, that's right.

They're out hunting antelope and they like ended up spray painting or so. But it's like you might get a bow like, whatever is that.

Because they're like working on it until like the last day.

That's what I understand, man. They're like, they're making tweaks and getting them ready and. Yeah. And was crazy this year. Like they had, they had a 30 inch bow and a 34. And I've been shooting a long axle bow for a bunch of years and I'm like, man, I just want to try a shorter axle bow. Just like stalking around, you know when you carry in your arm, like just like a little bit short would be cool. So I got the short axle Bow and Zach wanted the long axle bow and they didn't have enough and they had, they only had one left of like for the guys they were sending bows out to. So they had to make the decision between Zach and. Was it Levi Morgan? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like Levi got the bow. I think they made the right decision. So Zach got a short bow too. But it is like I think that they're just throwing bows together like it's tight on time and so yeah and it was cool man. Like I'd been shooting the Lift X and yeah, we, we, we actually it was seven or eight days. Me and Zach, we got the bows. We woke up at about 4:30 in the morning because we had. I was working, I was grinding this fall and we're doing electrical work and so we got up early one morning and filmed the bow builds because we wanted to include some of that on, on the film. So do the bows together. It went together pretty smooth. I think by like 9 o' clock my tape was good out to 60. I still a little bit more shooting and like breaking strings and stuff. But yeah, yeah it went together pretty good. And I just shot every day leading up to grade.

Yeah, I mean I've shot Matthews for like 20 some years.

20Th March.

So hand me a new bow and I'm pro. It's going to feel right, right. Like they, they tend to have like the grips is always the same. So like it feels pretty good. Just funny because like if I, I've tried to like pick up a Hoyt or whatever and it feels very different. I could, I could get used to it but like one I feel like it is a little bit easier if you shot a Matthews. Like if you were H. You've been shooting Hoyt for 10 years and they hand you a brand new Matthews. It might be a little bit difficult five days before A lot of these bows, they're cable guns, man. She's so good, dude.

They're so good man. Like all the bows are so good to your point. Like that the grip thing. I was glad I was shooting a Lift X before because I'm a tinkerer man. I run, I've ran Botex and PSEs and HOITs and everything. I like the Tinker. I wanted, I'd like to get a dart and even like just because they have some crazy features on them I just want to play with but I will. It was good that I was shooting that Lift X before because to your point the grip is the same and that's one thing that I See, a lot of guys struggle with is their grip and just torquing on the bow and that and going from one boat to.

Feels funny.

It. It definitely does, man. You might. And you'll chase your tell a little bit where you're not hitting behind the pin. Just trying to figure out what your grip needs to be right. But, yeah, it was pretty easy how to. Since I've been shooting the lift X, it was super easy.

Yeah, I do. I. You know what's funny? Like, I'm the opposite of a tinkerer with a bow. I get a new bow about every five years and like, I feel like year four is like, I'm really comfortable with it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sound like the opposite of that. Like, I hate new bows.

Really.

The first year, I'm like, I just don't. Yeah, I still feel it.

I don't know what it is because, like, I'm with the gun. I used to be this way with a gun, but the guns are easy now. Like, that's where, like, it's easy to make a gun do what it needs to do. It's really easy to get stable nowadays with all. All the tools at our disposal and then the techniques that we've learned in the last 10 years through PRs and NRL and all that. Well, the bow, there's still so much like, you are such an integral piece of the system. And if you're feeling really strong, like, and you might be holding solid and breaking good shot, and then you're feeling weak or whatever, it's just like, there's so much that you can tinker with and make that thing more forgiving. And. Yeah, it's just. I just. There's something.

Are you like a shoe? Like, what's your cadence? If, like you were ideally you had the bow before seven days before season. But like, are you shoot every day? Are you shooting one arrow a day? Like, what's your.

No, I shoot a lot of arrows, man. I shoot a lot of arrows every. Like, when it's.

What's your cycle like as far as. Like, you shoot all winter and do.

You shoot so through the winter? Like, as soon as rifle season's done, I pick up the bow and I'm shooting every day. I shoot Vegas games. Games at the shop every single day. I record like, score Vegas games. I. And then I like, we've got a really good archery league that we shoot over a big sky. A great group of guys. We're pretty competitive with each other. So that, like, really drives a lot of years, man. I'll build a new arrow every week of archery league and just tune, tweaking. Finding what, like, what's forgiven. You know when you're shaking a lot or the pen and you still hit the center? Like, that's what I'm looking for. And like, sometimes you'll, like, you'll find us. You'll find a setup that just fits you, man. And, like, no matter what, you hit center.

Yeah. So then I keep that for as many years as I possibly can. And that's why I don't mess with things, dude.

It's smart. And then my. I'm dumb enough to pull it apart and buy something new next week, and then I can't find it again.

Yeah, but you're also the guy that, like, pulls a scope off, like, the night before a match, and he's like, well, I just needed to clean it. You're like, that terrifies me, dude.

I think I was so afraid of it for so many years with guns and bows, and it's like, oh, I've got it. Right. Like, don't touch it. Nobody. Don't twist the turret. Don't do anything. And now I'm like, I. I dove in where, like, I could fix that. And I. And I. I've tweaked. I've tinkered so much. I know what's wrong, and I know how to easily fix it, too. Right? Like getting a bow press at the house and just tweaking on things and screwing stuff up. But then you. You learn how to fix it. I. I just, I. I really enjoy that side of archery.

Yeah. I do think this is, like, one of my flaws is I don't tune my own bows. I mean, I have Andrew to do it for me or. Or Cody or, like, anyone.

Like.

Like, I live, like, pretty easy. I've always had. Even when I grew up, like, I had a great bow shop shout out to Ray Werdinger, who, like Pacific Crest Archery. Like, dude, the guy can dial a bow. And when you have that, it's really hard to, like, go and do it yourself. But I would say that's a flaw of mine of, like, I can't do it myself.

Yeah. You know, I don't think it's.

I could do it if I had to.

Yeah, you can make it happen. Right? But there's just guys that are efficient at it and let them be efficient at it. You go do what you're good at, and you do. They do what they're good at. Like, I'm just. I've got weird obsessions. Where like you. I don't want to be the guy that knows how to do it.

I was like, do you think that if you were teaching someone to be a great hunter, do you think like learning to tune a bow? Where's that rate my.

That would be. That'd be a few steps down. Like, I. I'm big on establishing a good relationship with your local bow shop. Let those guys do it for a while. Like, you focus on it because like the mental games the most important always, like, I try and I push a lot of people. Joel Turner. Joel Turner was solved my problem with. I had target panic. Super bad. Really so bad, dude. Like, it. It was so bad with a bow. It started creeping in the gun where, like, I couldn't break. I couldn't hold on the target. Break shots with a gun. And it was like me and Andrew Whitney shot archery league together. And he had the bow thing dialed and then I had the gun thing pretty dialed. And so we kind of just like. I taught him to shoot a gun. He taught me to shoot a boom. Well, that now like Joel Turner process just a control shot is like, dude, I do that with everything. Like, you apply it to business and all that stuff too. But like with the. With the. With the weapon in general, unless you're doing. Unless you need a command shot, like to start shooting a pistol or shooting carving. But like, for a precision shooting, whether it's a bow or a gun, what.

Is like the like 30, 000 foot view of his, like, ethos? I know it's like you have like your. Your command word or something like that.

Yeah. So it's been a while since the. The biggest thing is it's basically a surprise. It's a controlled shot is the word he uses for it. But it's really surprise break. And the thing about it is you have to identify what your mentality is because there's guys like Tim Gillingham and Kyle Douglas that have won every archery tournament on the planet. And they execute a command shot, but their mind is one. Maybe not Tim, but Kyle is naturally very pretty mellow. Okay. He just doesn't. He doesn't get worked up a lot. So he's able to put the pin on the center and hit that trigger and it hits. Right, Right. The problem is the most. Most of us, like, as regular. What? Yeah, yeah. As like you put any type of pressure on us, whether you're shooting a tournament or there's a big elk or deer in front of you, all sudden all that anticipation and you start thinking about like, Oh, I want, I want this thing. You're. You're just bypassing the shot process. And so that's where Joel comes in, where he, he's done a lot of research on, on like brains, like the way that your brain operates. And executing a controlled shot works best for most people. The vast majority of people best that you'll ever shoot is through a controlled shot, which is a surprise break. So he basically just teaches you how to talk yourself through a shot and execute a surprise break. Don't worry about the float. Just let that thing float around. Focus on the execution. And he, he goes way into deep. But it's, it's bottom line is it's down to a surprise break, I would say.

So when you shoot league, you know, say you and Andrew aren't competing, but like you guys are shooting league. What is like, are you focused all on process in the winter time?

Well, I'm tweet, I'm tweaking on the bow to make it because I want the, I want the equipment to give me forgiveness. Same thing with my gun. I'm never like chasing super speed or super. I just want forgiveness. Okay. When I'm not my best, I want that the arrow to still hit where I wanted to go. So I'm setting up, I'm. I'm tweaking on my gear to give it. Give me forgiveness. But then what does that mean?

How do you get forgiveness? I. Dude, you said something. I was like, you know, I've had bows that to your point, like it felt like it was off when I shot, but it just hit perfect. You know, dude, this bow like it got a magnet to the 12 rank.

Yeah.

Is that, that's a real thing or is that not.

No, it's 100 a thing, man. And that's what like a lot of guys chasing speed. Like when you're shooting a, a bow that's 300 plus feet per second, like you put a little bit of grip pressure left or right, there's a, there's, there's, there's a lot of like with, with the rest, with the sight that, with a little bit of pressure and super reflex risers like all these crazy where the limbs are way out ahead of your grip. That's how they've got so much speed out of these hunting bows. But that's, that contributes to the, to the torque. Right. And, and so when you, when you have a forgiving bow, they're like, I shoot a little bit slower. Shoot around 280 to 285. Most of the time. A lot of vein and, you know, like, a lot of guys will run super micro veins, but, like, a lot of vein helps. There's just. You're just not perfect when you're in the field. And if you're on, if you're. If you're all tweaked out and excited, you have adrenaline pump into your body, you're stronger and you don't even realize, and you're just tweaking that out of the boat. There's. There's ways like torque tuning and. Torque tuning is when you move your sight and rest close together and further apart, and you could find this. It's like an equilibrium, dude. It's a weird thing where you could torque hard to the left and torque hard to the right, and it'll still find the center. And so that's like. That's an extremely forgiving setup if you can torque tune your bow. It's really hard nowadays because everybody's running pick rails for their sights and then the integrated rest. And I go like, I ran that this year, but I. Most of the time, I'm running something like an old school restwood that goes through the burger hole that can move the rest in and out. And then I've got the dovetail on the site that I can move the site in and out. And then you just play around. Like, I go to 40 yards at big sky archery, and I move them closer together, and I torque left and right, and I move them further apart, and I keep playing with it until they both. They. They hit that. No matter which way I torque that thing, I'm hitting center of, like, a Vegas face at 40 yards.

Right. Dude, that's interesting. I don't know. I've never heard that before.

Yeah, a lot of people. A lot of people stumble into it, and, like, you had a bow that did that for you, and you didn't know how you got there. But that's why I shoot spots so much. Like, I'm gonna shoot Vegas. The Vegas shoot again this year. Just indoor. The Vegas. Whatever spot faces and those guys have are the masters of just tinkering and tinkering and tinkering until they find a figure. I was talking to my buddy Adam yesterday. Like, I always. I always tune my bows so that my broadheads and field points are hitting together. Because I just. I just want to be able to practice. I shoot a ton of arrows all summer, and I want to be able to shoot. I'll, like, shoot a broadhead, and I'll shoot three field points And I just want them all to group together. But talking with Adam and. And this is what. What a lot of our target archery guys do is they, they give their arrow some direction coming out of the bow. It's not coming out straight down the center. Oftentimes it ends up being like a high left tear. Okay. And so when you have a high left tear coming out, it's going to do that every single time. And if you're all. You're about to shoot a 300, this is your last arrow, and you're all tweaked out and you're putting a bunch of pressure in the bow, well, then it's still going to come out a high left. No matter if you torque it left, torque it right, it's going to come out high left. So it's just very. And then you let those big veins do the work. Yeah. Solve the. Whatever that you're doing to it. So. Well, Adam's doing that with his honeymoon, which I've never done before. And so I'm like really interested in playing with that shooting because he, he is not concerned with his field points and broadheads hitting together. Like, if you have a high left tear, you're not right. I'm not talking like a three inch tear, but it might be a half inch or three quarter tear. And he's doing that. He's not concerned with his broadheads hitting with his field points. He sights in his bill for his. For his broadheads, but he, he is trying to make his honeymoon as forgiving as his.

That's interesting. So why do the target guys want the hypothetical high left hair? Just because it's more consistent.

Yeah. So like here, here's what happens. Like if, if you're coming out of the boat just absolutely shooting a bullet hole. Right. And you torque a little bit to the left.

It's gonna.

On one shot. And then you're gonna have a left tear. Right. And then you twerk a little bit to the right, you have a right tear. Well, now you're gonna. You might have really good vertical grouping, but you're gonna have a. It's gonna look like a line. You're gonna have a horizontal. This high left tear. And. And it could be a. It could be a. I don't normally not a low tear, but I think like a high right tear. It could be a high left tear. And, and it's just going to do the same. So then you torque it a little bit. It's just going to do that point. You're running pretty heavy point Weight too. That point's just going to pull it straight to the center and it's going to take your horizontal group into a nice little tight group.

Dude, that's insane.

Yeah, and like target guys been doing this forever and this like, if you, if you like really dive into the history. The best shooters, like up until the bows used to not be as good as they are now, right. The strings weren't as good, the limbs weren't as consistent. The best shooters that won all the tournaments were the guys that could attune their bow, make their bow the most forgiving so that when they're under pressure in a tournament, the bow keeps doing the same thing.

What is the biggest factor there? Is it, is it hand pressure? Like, what's the biggest factor for not perfect shots?

Oh, for not perfect shots, man, I, I.

Why don't you shoot a 300 every time in a Vegas?

There's a lot of, there's a lot of things with that because, like, like as you start getting, as you start feeling pressure again, like that adrenaline starts pumping. What, what I find myself doing is I'll start burying my face in the string as I'm trying to get the, the shot to break. And if you measure how much tension on the string like you're holding, if your holding weight is, I don't know, like 15 pounds or 20 pounds, something like that on a 70 pound bow. But the amount of face pressure, the actual amount of pressure it takes to move that string and like make that the back of the arrow start flying crazy is not very much. And so, so that's one thing that I catch myself doing, right. I start burying my face in the string. I. And then that also I start losing my peep alignment when I start doing that. And then there's also the grip pressure. There's just so many little pieces. Right. And like you're such an integral part of the system with the bow. It's just, it's incredibly difficult. Right. I like it.

Sidebar Tangent. I don't know if we should talk about this, but yesterday Jason was like, I wonder if we could remember we were talking about whoop with a watch. I wonder if we could measure grip tension because it has a gyro in it. So like, I wonder if you could like see consistency, yeah. Anyway, sidebar. A lot of cool things, dude. Yeah, that is, that is fascinating. The whole like hunting bow setup. Yeah. I feel like the traditional thought is like, yeah, brought like broadheads and field points hitting together. Should be perfect.

Yeah.

The other thing you mentioned, the Short axle bow. Historically, long axle bows are more forgiving. I. Dude, I used to have my favorite bow of all time and I was deadly with that bow was a Matthews DXT and it was a 29 inch bow. And that thing that was one of those bows where like it would feel like I was way off and just home run, dude. 100 yards. I was shooting three 4 inch groups.

That's crazy, man.

And I was like, loved that bow. Yeah. And it was a 29 inch axle.

Axle, man. I'm not super convinced. I know like all the target bows are pretty long actual axle. I'm not super convinced that that's the anobio. No, I don't think so. I think string angle, like a longer string angle is a lot more comfortable because like in reality, it's like you being comfortable behind the bow.

Yeah.

And like a longer axle to axle normally puts most guys at a more comfortable string angle where they're not having to lower their face into the string to get, to get their nose touch on the string and then also see through the peep. Right, right. So I know that that's but, but I don't necessarily think that people talk about like the longer axle, like it doesn't rotate as much or something. I don't think it matters like if you have your bow set up right. Like, I don't, I don't think that matters much. I, I, I know like for me, I shoot 29 inches or sometimes 29 and a half and like a tighter, a tighter string angle. I definitely have to lower like kind of stretch my neck down into. Get it.

Change the shot.

All right, so yeah, it does change it, but like that's what some people have shot forever and they're more, way more comfortable doing that.

So every individual consistency is more important than. Yeah, change it.

Do. One of my favorite things to talk about, like if you went to the Vegas shoot last year and there's like 30 dudes, those guys all crushed like Bodhi Turner, one Elijah Boom TS Fullerton I think is what they're like. Just a bunch of like a bunch of savages. Right. But if you go down the line, every one of those guys is different. Whatever the, the like standard protection is, Right. None of them abide, but they all figured out what worked for them because just biomechanically all different. Right. Like, like Mikey Slosher. Like, like supposedly like you're supposed to be straight. Like Mikey Slosher shoots way elbows almost pointing at the guy next to him.

Dude, it's the classic like The Olympic pistol shooter guy, like, everyone like, does it this way and he would just like, you know.

Yeah, very casual. You have to find what works for you. And like, I could give you tips on what, like, might help you be set up your, your process a little more or make your process a little more forgiving. But every one of those guys is different and it's all about finding works for you. And that's, that's part of the fun. Like, you get a new bow and every bow is different too.

Well, dude, the funny thing is, like, when I asked you about what your process is and I used to, I mean, I shoot a ton. But one of the things that's changed since I moved to Montana. So, like, when I lived in Oregon, I could just literally walk out the door, shoot 60, and so I could shoot an arrow an hour, right, like, or whatever. And I would shoot a ton. But I did find that at some point before season, I was shooting too much and I would start to go backwards. Right. Whatever it is. Like, so say I shoot league all winter. I probably honestly wouldn't shoot a ton between April, like January and April or whenever league's over end of January. So like, there's a couple months off there. And then I like, I want to pick it back up. Muscle memory, shoot it absolute butt ton in the spring and summer. But then I'll start to slow it down and. Because like, now I figured out that, like, if I'm shooting, I don't know, 60 arrows a day or 100 arrows a day, like, I start to like, fall apart a little bit. Whereas if I walk out there and shoot three good arrows or five good arrows and like, just walk away from it, man, I, I can stay really dialed, right? So that's why it's kind of like, you know, back to the whole process thing. Like, how many arrows? I don't. For me personally shooting 100 arrows every single day, like, doesn't it. I start to like, go the other way, shoot too much. But I was curious, like, what's your, what's your pattern?

There's a couple sides of it. Like, if you're shooting, like, I like to be around 30 to 60 arrows a day most of the time. Like, I'll shoot, shoot, practice on the front end and back end of a Vegas game, and a Vegas game is 30 arrows. So I'm like, I like to be 36 arrows a day. A day. A lot of that is I want to feel strong with because, like, I might be working out and stuff, but there's A certain amount type of strong when you're shooting your bow.

Right.

So I want to feel really strong shooting my bow. Like that's why, especially going in the league and going hunting season, the other side of it that I, I know a lot of guys are on the verge of target panic or whatever and it's just shot anticipation, it's anxiety. And I, I hear a lot of guys say, yeah, when I first pick up my bow, I'm, I'm just like, pound the center out of the X's or hit the twelves on the 3Ds. And then like when I'm shooting a bunch, then I was like, I, I, I'm not shooting in as good. And I think, well, what a lot of that is down to is shot anticipation. Shot anticipation. But it's, it's down to expectations. Like, you've created this expectation that I punched, that I, that I shoot these, that I shoot three hundreds, I, whatever. And when, and when you have this expectation of this is what I do, it, it affects your shot. If that's coming into your head during your shot process, it's going to screw up your shot process. You're not going to shoot as well. And it's, it's like with so many things in life, like it's, it's flow state or think of what the word is that I, that I use a lot. Just a state of awareness is the, is what I've liked to use a lot is this, this guy Brian Enos wrote a great book about being in the state of awareness. But I think it does a good job of, of talking about flow state and flow state. It's all. You're not thinking about the future, right? Which means I'm not thinking about, I'm shooting a 300. I'm about to kill this bull. I'm not thinking about the past. I'm not thinking about the photo I'm going to take of this. I'm not thinking about, oh, everybody expects me to do this wrong. You're just fully in the moment and allowing yourself to absorb what the world is giving you. Right? And that's where your mind needs to be when you're executing a controlled shot. And, and so if, if I'm allowing this expectation of myself to come in where I'm like, oh, I need to hit an X here to get my 300 whatever, 25x. Well, I'm, I'm probably not going to break that shot as well. And so what the reason I'm shooting these 30 to 60 arrows a day. Every single shot, I'm testing and practicing my control. My. My Putting myself in that state of awareness, flow state, being present. Right. And that's, that's the mental process. And reps is as important to me as the. The just actual physical being strong.

Right, Right. There's the physical side of it, and then there's the mental.

You're.

You're pushing the mental.

Yeah.

And maybe to some degree, like 30 shots a day, like, forces you to get through the anticipation side of it.

Which is like, man, I don't think you ever get to do it. That's the beauty of it. I. I think it's. It's really. I think it's really embracing it that you're never going to beat it. Like, it's always there. It's all like. There's days that I feel really strong and I'm just holding. My hold is just like, it just parks in the center and I execute my shot. Other days, it won't even stay in the yellow. It's just floating around. But. And those are the best days because then it forces me to, like, absolutely forces me back in my process. And people think that a lot of times, like, oh, I'm just. I just hold really good and that's why I shoot high score. Like, dude. It's all down to the process largely that Joel figured out, right? Where it's like that thing's floating around. But every movement, you just let the subconscious do the aiming. And Joel uses a term, visual proprioception. It's like when you're driving down the center, this is the best example for when you're driving down the center of the road and you start to drift off to the left a little bit. You don't think like, oh, I need to correct 10 degrees back to the right. Your brain just does it. Your brain finds center. Right. And that's. That's the whole. The basis for the aiming with Joel's process is you just allow the subconscious to do. It's going to bring. Anytime it moves away from center, it's going to move back to center. And it's all about focusing on your shot execution. Whatever it is that. Whatever movement it is that you do to make that shot break. And yeah, it's just like these reps help me just like, get. Get more comfortable with the uncomfortable. Right.

And to your point, like, I think the harder you try to force your pen to the center, the. The more complicated, the worse the system goes, the worse your, like, your shot sequence goes. You go to like, let's say this season, right? You shoot your bull. How does it feel different when you draw on that bull?

I feel, I feel very present. I, I just, I remember every little detail. I know a lot of guys that say they black out and that stuff. Like, I, that's the one thing that gets me very comfortable, like, operating with adrenaline pumping and excitement anticipate. Like, it just gets me very comfortable just operating there. And I don't, I don't rush the process ever. Like, whether it's with. On a rifle or a, Or a bow, I, I honestly embrace that time. Like, we've done all the work. We found the animal we want to kill. We did the stock. I've got my sight dialed. He's there. And I don't try and just get through the shot. I, I enjoy it. And like, maybe it's only a couple fractions of a second longer, but I execute my shot and I enjoy and I, I, I'm fully aware of everything that's happening in the moment. But it's. Like I said, it's down to a lot of mental reps. Yeah, it's.

I mean, it's really hard because you get in that last. You get in that moment, and a lot of times you're in bow range and you like, I gotta make it happen. Or the bull's looking at your deer's looking. Whatever is looking at you, and you feel like you gotta rush it. Like he's gonna run away. Yeah, it's really like. And it, it's probably partials of a second difference, but you're like, I gotta go. It's like, nope, slow down. You know? Interesting. This year I was up in Alaska hunting blacktail deer. Sick of blacktail Deer are interesting, man. They have tiny, tiny little kill zones essentially. Like, their lungs don't go very far back. Like, they're like, I mean, you, we cut it out and like, it is crazy. There's kind of a no man's land where you think, like, if you were shooting an L, you're like, middle of the lungs. You're behind the lungs. Like, you have to be way forward. And so, like, everything in your head. And so this year I go up and what was it? First? Trying to think. First stock. Oh, it was kind of a rushed deal. We sat all day. My buddy was on this buck. I was looking at a different buck. We basically sat all day thinking, like, waiting for a better opportunity. Right. And it wasn't really gonna work out. So, like, just, let's go back over the rage. So we were Eight, nine hours of watching these deer. And then like literally came around the ridge, looked back to where we were just sitting and was like, there's an opportunity. Like they had just come up and I was like so very rushed. I slip in, come up. I was like, oh, if I can get to there, it should be a 45 yard shot. Slip in, like, kind of had to rush and like, you know, the one deer had seen me and I like pop up range 45 yards, but it's like. And then the other two had taken off and that buck was standing there. So I'm like 45 yards, pretty steep downhill, take the shot and like, felt good. On the break. I knew I was, I was like, I could feel like the, the pressure. I didn't rush it, but I could feel the pressure rushing it. And I hit that buck decent, but like last rib and I was like, not good, you know, and he was kind of, kind of going down and like you could tell he's hurt. And the other deer weren't going crazy. Long story short, absolute rodeo, it's going to like start storming like crazy that night. So like I have to like, sick as you'll lose them instantly. So it's like, this has to happen tonight. So I gotta get another arrow in. This deer is gong show anyway, this buck, I missed him. No, I put another arrow on at like 78 yards anyway, you know, trying to get another airline. He goes way down on this cliff and you know, it's like that, that deer's gone. Like, what? It's just gonna, it's gonna probably rain 2 inches.

Wow.

And it like gets in your head, like, just eats you up, dude. Just absolutely eats you up. And like, you go through this whole mental game of, you know, like, all right, I'm done, like, you know, whatever. And it's like, hate it, hate the mental side of it. But the next day, you know, I was like, oh, Craig, you, you know, you go through it. And ironically, Craig and I were on this on Kodiak a couple years before and like, it was one of those years where everything I like both my shots, you know, like killed two deer. And Craig went through one of these rodeos where it was like, you know, he's doing the roller coaster of like, I'm done bow hunting forever. And I'm like, yeah, get back out there. You can do it. And then he's shooting like another one gets wounded and he's like, dude, this is out of control. You're just like, it happens.

It's archery. It is archery.

And so, anyway, on this trip, I had screwed up, and so I was like, all right, I need. I really didn't want to go into elk season having this weight on my shoulder of, like, you know, losing an animal. So I'm like, all right, just go put a good stock on. 12 rings only. 12 rings only, you know, and, like, it's got to be a perfect stock. Like, I'm not doing anything unless it's perfect stock. Don't care about size. So Craig's off on stalking a deer or whatever, and I put a stock on this buck. All right. Like, I see a buck, and he's bedded right off the ridge. And I'm like, dude, this is perfect. I bet I could get to 30, 20 yards or whatever. And that's what I was like, I'm getting under 30. Like, let's just make a good shot, get the mental back. I get up there. I sneak in. I was at 40, and I notice it's a 4x4. And I'm like, like, these 4x4s are super rare. I've already killed one with my bow, man. And so, like, it's just like, of course it's a 4x4, you know? And I was like, I'm gonna get closer. So, like, had to back out, get closer. I got to, I think, 31 or 32. Sat there forever. And I'm like, this is money. Like, this is perfect. Buck stands up. I shoot, dude, it's like the same spot. And it was, like, just a touch back. And, like, part of me was like, I was fine. And then part of me is like, God damn it. Like, I know that's it's gonna be borderline, right? And I know these deer, like, their lungs don't go back very far. And it was just like, you know, in the ribs, elk would be dead. And I was like, yep. How did I, you know, screw that up? And I pull back, and he's just walking, and I'm like, get another one. Get him. Yeah. Like, rushing it, of course. And, like, I'm tracking him as he's walking, tracking him as walking. And then into the peripheral, I see a big boulder. Like, he's gonna go behind a boulder. So I'm like, gotta get it. And, like, almost the same spot. Like, yeah. Damn it. You know? And this will tell you how gong show it is. But, like, now I'm out of arrows because I only had two.

Yeah.

And buck stops right on the other side of the rock, Stands there at, like, 35 yards. And I was like, you should have waited, you know, like, whatever. I was like, all right, talk to yourself. I was like, it's good. It's fine. Like, two arrows through him, like. And I went and got both those. Both those arrows.

Nice.

I was like. But I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna let this one say, give it a while. Of course, I went. Craig was off doing his thing, so I, like, take a nap. But, like, now the mental skin, Tino. And, dude, these deer are so hard to find. It is the. It's the craziest thing in the world. Like, if you, like, it's just brush. It's so thick. Like. And, like, I'm looking for this buck on, like, borderline dangerous grass that's, like, you can't see. Then it just goes into a forest of brush and nothing, you know? I looked for, I don't know, four or five hours the rest of the day, and I was like, now I'm really in a mental tizzy, you know? I'm like, I'm done, like, cranking hot, like, whatever. And it's funny because two years ago, it was like, the reverse situation. And he's. He smoked a buck that night, packed it out, and I'm just like, you know? So the next day, I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna hunt or not. I was like, I'll go out there and I see some bucks. I'm like, it's got to be 20 yards. Like, I'm getting under 20. 30 is my top line, right? So I. I was like, don't care. I almost want it to be a fork at horn. Like, I almost want just, like, get your mental back. Like, gotta get a mental back. And the whole time, I'm like, twelve rings only. Twelve rings only. Twelve rings only. So, long story short, I see. I see this group of bucks, and I need actually a couple little bucks. I'm like, if I get to that bench, it's probably 20, 25 yards. Let's just, you know, whatever. So I start working in. I get there, and of course, there's another giant in there.

Oh, my God.

And I'm like, yeah. I was like, should probably wait for the giant. So I sit on these deer. Basically, the stock takes me six, seven hours. Like, I'm just kind of with them moving and, like, whatever. Finally, they kind of get up here, and I stock in. And again, I think I got to 28 that time. It's like, big bucks at the top, too. It's, like, perfect, you know? So I'M like, all right, I'll lay here. Big 12 rings. Only 12 rings only. Like, I'm, like, going through the mental. Right. Trying to get it out of my own head. And, like, you got this, like, hyping myself up of, like, you know, like, hey, you're. You're great Archer shooter. Like, don't let this get to you. Stands up. If you don't have a perfect shot, don't take it. Like, only perfect shots. Hour and a half later, finally, Buck stands up. Give him a range. Stand up. I'm like, 12 rings. Only 12 rings. And just like, everything I had, like, focus on that pin. Focus on the shot execution, you know. Smoked him. And yeah, it's quartering away. Probably hit, like, the same spot, but actually came out in front of the shoulder. So it helps if it's quartered away.

I love him far away.

And it's always good when you watch him die. He ran, like, 30 yards, tipped over, and I was like, all right, I got that one back. But, dude, the mental side of archery can just be a war zone, dude. And I've been like, with some amazing archery hunters and, like, watch them have rodeos.

Yeah.

And it just happens.

We all missed you. I missed two antelope this year. Didn't get one killed. It's like, it happens, man. Like, that's why I love the. I love the reps. I love the mental trainer. And that's what. That's what, like, I push a lot of guys. Like, rifle shooting is pretty easy, man. And I push a lot of guys to go shoot bows. And they don't. Not all of them do. And it's like, go shoot bows. Because it's the best cross training you could possibly get. Because on the mental side, it's. It's huge. Especially if you're executing controlled shots. You have to get really comfortable with float and all that. And then you get on a gun and there's no float because you're able to get stable. It makes it so easy.

Interesting.

That's great. I love those. I love the. Yeah. The hardship that comes with archery on a man. Like, it's. It's so good for the. For your mental process and. And forcing you into your. Your physical process, whatever, it just. It just forces you get to get back to your process.

100. Which is good for everything we have. We haven't talked about your hunt yet. Oh, let's hear the story.

Yeah, man, that was great.

Let's go all the way.

Got the bow.

Little side tangent there about bows. Yeah, you get the bows, you set them up. It goes well.

Went, went really good. Yeah. I had, I had arrows built. What was funny, we went and we rented a slow mo camera like one of those like super high frame rate cameras and we went out and shot and like I've always been told this was a kind, this is a kind of a fun archery thing. But I've always been told to you like shoot a bear shaft area bow and see which way it's naturally rotating and then fletcher arrows that way. Left or right? Right. Well, I've. Every bow, I'm right handed shooter, every bow that I've had for the last however many years, it's always come out spinning. So I, I do a left offset or left helical. Either way. Zach, you know when he bought his Bittenberger jig, I think it was a right, it was right helical or something like that. So he just ran rights forever. Yeah. And so what was really interesting is like we're, we're both, we're shooting these slow mo shots with, with out of her bows and mine is coming off the string and just. And I'm running a three fledge two and a quarter tack vein and it comes off of the string and it's just instantly just spiraling like perfect spiral like as soon as it leaves the string. And then Zach shoots and we're watching it. He's got this. He's right handed as well. The thing's coming off and you can see it almost wants to tick left and then it just knuckle balls for about 20ft and, and and then starts spinning to the right and slowly gets there right. And he, but he's running a 4 fletch like heat vein like he has a lot more vein on his arrow than mine. And we're like dude, that is wild man. Like it like because I've been told this that like the bow throws it out a certain way and it was very clear on his. So I had him shoot some of my arrows. Perfect. Comes off the string instantly spinning left.

No way.

We left there. We went straight. This is like three days before season now I think. And we run to the bow shop, we grab some Easton 5.0s and flushed them up left and it was like again just looking for forgiveness because the, the vein, if you could shoot a bear shaft right, if your form is perfect, it's going to hit right where you. Most of the time your form's not perfect. You need those veins to correct whatever is not perfect there. And it's like if that thing's spinning right off the string as opposed to knuckleballing for 20ft or something. It's like it's just going to give you a little more forgiveness.

That's insane. Do you have to rent a slow mo camera? Is there a better way to do that?

I don't know. I think this camera was a 1200 frame per second. And what was it? 2K? Something like that. It was like one of those free flies or. It's a well known camera out there. There's not a lot that will really do like high res.

Like we'll see all. What's the alternative to figure out which way my arrow spins?

Oh, you just. So like you're gonna shoot a target at like arrows length out of the bow. Okay. Any. Whatever. You can put a sharpie mark on it or whatever and you just shoot it and you shoot it like at an arrow's length. Then you step back another step right and see and you'll see that it's naturally going left or right. Most right handed shooters are going left. Just it's something to do with the way that the strings are spun. Exactly. But most guys recommend and it was funny because this is one of those things I've been. I've heard for years. And then when we slow moed it and saw it was like, dude, that it's important. Like maybe it's not important, like he could still hit behind the pan and shoot good grooves. But it's like this is giving you forgiveness. And for a hunting boat, I want to be.

Yeah.

Regardless. So we built him new arrows three days before season. Have to go and, and reside in a site tape and all that. And then yeah, finished up. I think we did a day of work on Monday because I got my electrical crew had the set. We had 10 days planned for the hunt indefinitely really because it's a Matthews film. It's like we gotta give it all. It's not like you have to kill like that. I don't. I don't by any means of like the whole influencer thing where guys like I'm gonna kill no matter what. It's like. No, we. But we are gonna give it our best effort.

Right.

So we had 10 days planned.

We may not kill it. We're gonna hunt every day until we.

Dude, we're gonna put some miles in. We're gonna. Yeah, the wife's gonna have to call me home for something important. Dude, if I like. Otherwise we're gonna stay out here and we're gonna give it our Best ghost. Yeah. Yeah, we got out there. Travis filmed it. Travis, Zach's brother, he's I love. He's such a great dude to hunt with. And man, it was like one thing just like on my mind. I. I've been on a lot of rifle hunts. Rifle, to your point. Like, if you find the animal that you've done the hard part. But shooting them is pretty easy. Yeah. I've never been filmed on archery hunt. And so there was, there was a lot of, like, pressure there. Right. Like, it's just like, there's a lot that has to go. Right. And so we had a lot of conversations leading up into it. And the thing that we don't want to do, the one thing, like, I don't like about hunting films, sometimes when it's like you had a great story and like all this lead up and then all of a sudden there's an animal dead on the ground. They're just like recounting the story. They didn't film any of it. And so one of the things that we went into it, it's like, hey, we're doing it on film. We're making a commitment. That's how we're doing it. And we're not going to take a shot. One, we're perfect. Broadside shots are quartering away only. No quartering to you. No. Fraunhelst just wanted to go. Matthew's put their trust in us and we want to honor them by taking responsible shots. And then with Travis and like, Travis isn't. We're like, we're stalking in with two people. With a cameraman, it becomes a whole lot more. So is that we had to just. If Travis said, no, you're not taking the shot, I don't care how perfect the shot is. So it's like if you get in and he's standing There broadside at 30 yards and Travis doesn't have the. If you hear a no, you don't shoot the shot until he says yes or the thing walks away. So there was, there was just a lot of pressure going into it. And I was like, but man, at the end of the day, like, I, I, it's like things are going to be how they are. Yeah. And I, I go into most things that way. It's like I'm gonna control all the things I control. That's why I like really focusing on my mental process, my weapon. Because the rest of it, if the elk are there or if they're not there, I have no control over. Right. Like, if I, if I get an opportunity or don't I have no control? So, yeah, it was good as far as that goes. Like, I had a pretty good mental state other than just like, there's this pressure of the camera and. But, man, we. We. We packed in. We backpacked in and carried some water and, yeah, we got. Got in the next day and, like, got up in the dark, hiked, climbed a ridge, and right away we bumped a bull. And it was kind of funny. We're looking back on the footage. It was actually the bull I ended up killing.

Oh, is it?

Yeah, it was pretty wild. He's a six by seven. And we didn't. We didn't know it while we were on the hunt, but we're gonna come up. We come up over the ridge and we'd like, right away bump this bull out from 200 yards. It's like, oh, my gosh, dude. Yeah. And what was crazy, the night before, they're like, we weren't really hearing or seeing anything. Right. It's like, it's Elker. Funny, man. Like, when people watch that film, they're gonna be like, oh, go out east, man. There's elk everywhere.

Right, right.

It wasn't like that. The night before there was. Yeah, like, we were, like, a little bit stressed. Yeah. I'm not sure if there was going to be elk around. You just don't know. And we woke up the next morning, that bull was there. It was like, oh, it's gonna be good.

Yeah.

So he kind of buggered off and went. It looked like he was gonna go bed. And so we spent all day. It was pretty hot. It was like in the 90s. And we went looking for that bull all day. And we found two other bulls that I stalked. Pretty fun. One was with cows over a little edge. And I tried to play it safe. This is like one of the big lessons or like, reinforcements for me. Like, especially with archery hunting, everybody's got different instincts. Right. Like, your instincts are going to be different from mine. Like, I've hunted with Andrew a lot and Zach along. Like, we all have slightly different instincts. And one thing that I've learned about myself, I'm extremely aggressive.

Oh, yeah.

It makes most people around me, like, a little nervous. Second guess me, dude. And I have a, like, a mentality of like, dude, if I blow this one out, we're just gonna go hike till we find it. Might be 20 more miles, but we're gonna find another one, dude. It's like, if I blow this elk, I'll find another elk. Yeah. And it doesn't help that I. Or it doesn't hurt that I'm not very picky. Like, I'll shoot a spike or a 6.0. Yeah. I have a good time running. There's three bulls. The goal for this hunt, I'll say was the shoot two six points on film. Yeah. But if it. The good thing is, like, if, if things start getting late and we need a bull killed, like, I'll shoot.

Yeah. You're willing to step up to the plate and shoot a five point if we have to.

I love it, dude. I'm putting an arrow through a bull. I'm at a good time. But. Yeah, so. So what was funny is that that first day, I got two stocks in on that first day and I played both of them safe, safer than I normally would. I'm normally super aggressive. Like, I'll just finish. I'll stalk till I could shoot it. And I don't, I won't. I don't wait. Most of the time I might just. I just stalk in and like, I make it happen. That's just like. And it makes people uncomfortable. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm not listening to my instincts, right. This is just a lesson that I try and encourage everybody. Listen to your instincts. But I'm. I'm thinking about Travis and like, Travis is a rock star. He's not putting any pressure on me. But I'm thinking about trying to make his job easy in that. Right. But that's not.

And the film and all this, right.

So I'm like. So I just like the first one I slow played in just sat and like. And I got in. I think I was like 8 yards. 8 or something. Yards of a cow. And the bull was down over a little bit. But I was like, I'm just gonna play. I'm gonna sit here. Well, then the winch switches and they can blow out, right? And then this next one. Then we're like literally like 20 minutes later, we find a nice 6 point bulb bedded down in the bottom of a coolie. And the same. I, like, I just played it slow and like. And I had. I was getting nervous about the wind switching on that one. And so we, I, I signaled. We talked about beforehand that I take my hat off and show Zach my hat. He was up on the ridge that he was bugle or calcul to get. Try and get the bull to stand. And it started to feel like the wind might. It was getting late in the afternoon. Like the wind's making me nervous here. It's like, let the stand. But what I didn't do is I. I didn't draw. As soon as he stood, I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna let him stand and get comfortable, like, thinking that he might just get comfortable and. Because, like, sometimes understand they're super alert. Right. I was like, oh, maybe he'll just stand and, like, look around and then maybe just settle down. Well, I didn't. He just blew out right away. And. And so then. So that was all in my mind. I was like, okay, that's. That's okay. But it's like, that was just a reinforcement to listen to my instincts.

Yeah, you're like, I need to be more aggressive. This is. This is classic elk hunting, though. You're like, I should be. Play it safe. And then that screws up. I should play it more aggressive. And that screws up. Like, I should have been safe. And just like, this constant throughout the season where you're, like, really playing it safe, really aggressive. And it's like, back and forth.

Dude. I think it's. I think the most important thing is, like, like, you kill bulls every year. Zach kills bull. Like, all these guys kill bulls every year. But it's normally, like, I'm gonna keep doing my process, my instincts until I kill and I'll kill. But if I. I'm a. I think that if you, like, get caught back and going back and forth, like, that's where you might struggle a little more. I know if I keep doing my, like, aggressive game. Yeah.

Yeah.

I kill a bull pretty much every year. Right?

So, dude, I'm a huge, like, to your point about, you know, having the camera guy behind you, I'm a huge, like, I like hunting by myself. I am different. I am, like, I will do things differently, and if I'm even, it's you and I. Not that I need to guide you at all, but I'm gonna do things different because I'm like, oh, does he wanted to go down here? Does he want to do it? I'm like, no. Like, I just. I need to do my things my way, and if I put another person in the situation, I change my behavior 100.

It's. Dude, it's so true. And it's tough. It's a tough thing to figure out because, like, we're all like, people, please. I'm a big people, please. I know. I want everybody to have a good time and whatever. So, like, I'll make. I'll drastically modify my decision making to make sure that they're Enjoying themselves.

Or I'll just turn into a guide.

Yeah.

Every time. And like, I'll turn into the guide and it's like. And then I won't. I won't get my own chances.

Yeah, well, that was my fear that I was like, dude, I'm not gonna be. I'm not gonna get a bull killed if I don't. If I don't just follow my process.

Yeah. You're like, I need to go back to doing it my way.

Yeah, I just need way. So then, yeah. Next day, wake up, come over the ridge. Coming over the ridge where there's film of the boulders. It looked like he had a good night. Looked like he had. Had a party with some cows. He had a kind of a limp going. He's like, dude, that was a good time. I need to go get it. Get some. Get some rest, you know? And so we watched him. He was however far away and just like, watched him in the spotter. And he looked like he might have gone up this other drainage or maybe just parked it way down there at the bottom of the ridge that we were on there. So we couldn't see it. So gave it a couple hours. Let. Let it the wind cell because one was pretty switchy. It's always switch out there, but it was pretty switchy that morning. We let it settle a bit, and then me and Travis went down the ridge looking for him. And dude, I. It didn't feel this long, but looking back on the clock, it was like. Must have been like two and a half hours that I slow. You know, you, like, come over a ridge and like, you take half a step, and now you've got like tons of new countries. And then you take another half a step, right. And you just try not to just expose yourself on the ridgeline. And. And so we came over the. Where we thought he was never. We didn't find him. I was still playing. I was still staying super low. And I just. There was maybe one little spot that I couldn't see, but I'm like, I'm pretty sure that he's not in here. Then we ended up working around because there's some mud banks that we like, maybe he's good. It's pretty hot. And there's the. These mud banks were the only shade to be had. There was no trees or anything. So I was like, maybe he's upbedded against those mud banks. So they like spend all this time going and try and like, search those mud banks without being seen. Didn't find him. And then Travis just had a feeling. He's like, dude, I just feel like he's in that hole that we couldn't quite see. So we. We went back up, and then Travis ended up spotting just the tip of his fourth. Yeah, just the tip of it in this little, like, not even a deer bed. Dude, I could not believe this hole at this big bull elk were laying in, man. And it was like, dude, it is on. There's. It's just such a. And the wind was blowing up from him up. It was like, everything about it. So we. We backed in, we dropped our packs, we put socks on, and, yeah, we got in. It was. It was crazy because where he. It was just such a tight little hole. And again, like, we're thinking about, like, we're only broadside shots where, like, everything's got to be really good. And. And so we get in the 45, both of us, right? And I could just. I could see the tips of his time. It's great. It's great. That's like, God, Elker. So much easier than antelope because I've used so many stocks on antelope this year. You got, like, I shoot little antelope, so you got, like, maybe 6 inches over their head, right, to see what you got, like, three feet or something. Yeah, that's really great. Stalking of milk. But regardless of them get the 45, and I'm like, man, I just don't have a lane on him. And then, like, get the 40, and then 35, and then I think I'm standing at 33.

Dude, that's so close.

Dude, it's so close. So close. My God. This is the first animal I've actually killed on socks. I've always been able to kill everything in my boots, but putting socks on was great, especially. I don't think I would have. I don't think I would have been quiet enough with boots in this particular terrain. It was pretty noisy. And the socks. The big wool socks were super quiet. But, yeah, I'm at 33, and I'm just like, man, my. And there, I could see that if I backed out a little bit and came back in, I could have got the 20 super easy. I was like, I'm just gonna shoot them in the bed and tell Travis. And he's like, dude, it was great because Travis just like, whatever your instincts are telling you, trust it. Like, I'm here for it. I'm like, dude, stay right here. You're gonna have a killer shot from up here at 35, I'm gonna drop in at 20.

Did you back. You got to 35 and backed out.

Backed out.

That's impressive.

Came. Came back around, and, yeah, I got, like. Got to this spot at 20. And I was like, oh, money. He's just laid out like a dog, dude, just panting. I could see every. I could see all of his vitals just wide open. There's. Except at 15 yards, there was this one little, funny little green bush blocking his vital. If I was by myself, like, I'm being honest, by myself, I would have snuck it by it. But can't do that for. Yeah, right. Like, I mean, like, Travis had a shot on it, but it was like, nah, this is. I was like, I'm gonna. I've got somebody here. Like, yeah, let's throw some rocks, you know? So I, like. I look up at Travis, and I.

Was like, did you. Did you. I thought about this during the film. Did you, like, weigh that decision? Like, how long did you, like, Should I start rushing out there? Like, I don't want to.

I was so close. So close. I just, like, right now, I was like, we're doing it, dude. I just. Like, that's so close. I was like, he's gonna hear me, see me, or smell me, right? I was like, I'm. We're just doing it, dude. I'm like, I'm. I'm in here. And again, I'm like, what's the worst thing that's gonna happen? We're gonna blow them out. I'm gonna go find another elk. So I was like, let's make it happen. So I give Travis the signal. I. I go to full draw. And what was cool, there was a bush block in his head from me. He couldn't see me. I could see it. So if he would have stood right where he was, I would. Had a beautiful quarter. And away shot.

Never works that way.

20 yards. Yeah, so. So Travis throws. Roll. And I'm at full draw. Travis throws a rock. Nothing. No reaction. Doesn't turn his head. Nothing. Right? Like, oh, my God. I look back up at Travis, and then still on it. And Travis throws another rock. No, Like, I'm like, what is going on? They're like. And he's throwing them. Travis is at 35 yards. He's thrown them to within 10 yards. It's, like, really close to the bowl.

Like, does he just sound a slaving in here?

He's just panting, dude. I don't. I don't know. He's just panting, and I have no idea. And, like, out in that country A lot of times there's not, like, good rocks. A lot of the time, it's like. There's just not that. It's, like, all mud country, right? So there's no. So Travis. So. And I'm at full drawn at one point. Like, I kind of creep off my back wall. You could see it in the film because it's like, I've been holding for a long time.

Yeah, no, like.

Like, man, I'll keep back and hold that thing, right? So I'm like. So I'd, like, reassert myself. And then. And then Travis, like, he's out of rocks, and so he just reaches down, grabs a handful of dirt, like, whatever, and just throws a dirt out there. And then the bull hears that one. Finally, he stands up, does not stay in his bed, and just. Just, like, spins up the hill. And I remember just watching again, like, just being present in the shot. Like, I just remember, like, I'm shooting a four pin. I like a 20 to 50. And. And as the bull turns, there's a super steep hill. I see all my pins across his spine, Dude, I'm just. Just watching there. And then Travis actually. Yod. I was gonna give him a segment. Travis, Yod. And it just stopped him. Perfect. He's at 25, quartering away. And I just. I split my 25 and 30. Pin pulled, dude. Broke my shot. Watch my arrow bury in behind the shoulder and land. It just sucked up most of the arrow because it landed in the offside shoulder. And I was like, oh, dude. I just knew I was shooting those beast broadheads and, like, big holes. Yeah, he went up the hill, and then, like, when he tumbled down, that was. Oh, God, that's gnarly, dude. I've shot a few animals that have tumbled down stuff. I was like, gosh dang. You just feel bad watching them tumble like that, dude.

It was epic. It was wild, dude. It was such a good film.

It's so cool, man.

Do the whole thing. The one in the Kool Aid. Which one was that? Is that the one that you. He bugled and took off.

Yep, yep, that was. I was up above him. Looking back on it, I'm still actually kind of happy about that shot that I was at. My. My range finder was giving me 41 yards, but it was so steep, man. It was like. It was. I think it was in the 60s. It was incredibly steep. Right. So looking back on, I'm actually happy.

I didn't take that one.

Take that shot.

Well, for sure. After, like, you stocked a 20 bump up, like, throw a rocket. A boy stands up and you smoke him at 25.

Yeah.

Falls down the hill like, oh, dude, that was epic.

It was great. It came together awesome, man. Yeah. There's a bunch of emotion that came out, too, because there's just so much pressure, you know, you want to do good. Like, you want to do good for Matthews. I want to do good for, like, Zach and Trav. They're out. We're all grinding together, working for each other, you know, so it was good. There's a lot of motion that came out that most time. I don't have that when I kill something. But, yeah, it was just. It was a good, very good sense of accomplishment, gratitude, just thankfulness for it. We prayed a lot about just asking me, blessed by God to, you know, give us opportunity, let us do the best with the opportunity that we're given. And it's like. It was really cool. Just like that moment again, to share that moment with with Travis and Zach. It was. It was pretty.

Dude, that was so epic. And then Zach ends up killing a bull, too. It was. I mean, a few days later, like, you guys.

Yeah, it was. Knocked it out day five. It was nuts, dude. Yeah, that, that and that. With a bull that he had history on that he had somehow found the year before, and he got the 60 on it the year before, and the wind was ripping. He drew back and he was like, nope. Made a. Just a good decision. Just like, I'm not going to risk it just because it's a big bull. Right. So then, like, find that saying, he's a very unique bull. He's pretty easy to tell any. He grew an extra point that year off of his second. So he's a seven by eight. Yeah. It was rad, man. Found him. We actually put a stalk on that bull on day three after packing my bull out, packed my bullets like, two in the morning or something, got back in the next afternoon, put a stock on that. We found that bull, somehow put a stock on a winch switch and blew out, like, oh, that was our opportunity on him.

Yeah.

And then day four was a pretty big grind and didn't really have any opportunity. Good opportunities on day four. And then day five, and I think Zach was starting. It was funny. Zach was starting to feel like maybe I should just like, he wanted to shoot that seven by eight. Yeah. Right. But I think he started to feel like, oh, maybe we'll just. Maybe we'll just shoot a. Shoot a good bull. We'll find another six point and whatever. Well, what was funny where we were. It was middle of the day, man. It was so stinking hot. And we. We. We're just kind of bombing coolies, right? And, like, looking for. Looking for elk. And we were. We were coming up over the coolie, and I just, like, catch the. The top. The top end of a bowl in the. Embedded in some brushes, and I just see the top end. I didn't know what he was. I just see the top end. And when. You know, when they turn their head 90 degrees and a big ball, like, with a long beam ball, like, it moves far right, like.

Yeah.

It's not like it turns in place. It, like, moves from, like.

Yeah.

A distance or. I was like, zach, I don't know what he is, but he's a good ball.

But you should.

You should shoot him. You should go put a stalk on this ball. It's like, with the way the wind was, we couldn't. We couldn't come around the front of them to see where he was bedded. Exactly. It was like, essentially, it's going in blind. Normally on a stalking line have a pretty good idea of your landmarks and that. Like, dude, you can't do the wind. Wind was just bad enough. So he goes in blind, and him and Trav climb. Like, we went around. I. I put myself a few hundred yards away, just. I didn't want any chance of additional wind screwing up anything. I'm sitting over there, and I watched him go over the ridge. It was, like, half hour by hour, hour and a half, two hours. It's, like, time just going by, right? And I'm, like, recording little videos and thinking, like, any moment he's gonna come over with his hands raise, and it's like five and a half hours, something like that. And they come. They both come over the ridge, but they're not looking at me. There's. There's just. There's panic almost.

Yeah.

They throw their boots back on, and they just bomb back down the ridge, dude. So I'm like, and what happened? What is going on? So I was like, oh, I'll just work. So I work my way over there, and I get up. I end up climbing up over the ridge, and like, another half hour goes by. Something like that. I'm just not knowing what's going on. I don't want to. If there's still a play happening, I don't want to screw it up. But I'm also like, dude, these guys haven't had water because I. Their packs are with me. They don't have packs so it's like. And it's hot as can be out there. That's why it's like in the video you can hear me like, you need to drink some water. There's a long, long time without water out there. And yeah, I, at some point I was like, the sun is, has set and there's maybe 10 or 15 minutes of shooting light left. And I just, I kind of like stand up over, over the top of the ridge and look down and Zach's walking up the bottom without his bow. No Travis. I'm like, he had to have killed. Why would he be. And then, then he sees me and it's like pure excitement. Dude, mind you, I still don't know. It's a seven by eight. I think he shot some like average six point, right? And he gets up to the top and he tells me a seven by and I like, lose my mic. I thought there was no way, right? It was just such a beautiful bulls ride, dude.

Great, dude. So epic. Yeah, it's great film. You guys did an awesome job editing it, all that stuff. What advice do you have for open open country hunting?

Oh, man, I, I'm not, I like the open country because the glass with. They're not bugling. The glass plays a role. It's like obviously glass a lot for mule deer all the time. And in the if, if you're hunting like timber country for elk, like, I'm not glassing a whole lot. I want to say maybe relying on calling a little bit more. Like we didn't do any calling on this hunt. Not that we, like, we had bugle to and, and calls with us, but we just kept getting lucky on finding bedded bulls. So. But glassing and then putting work in there, that's. That's one thing. Like, if there's not a big vantage point where you can see a big amount of country, man, we put a lot of work in just grinding coolies. And it's not as bad as like in the mountains. Like maybe you got 1500, 2000 vert up to your glass and knob or whatever. Here it's like, yep, 3, 4, 500 between coolies. But like it does get monotonous. Like, oh, we got another coolie to go over. So yeah, just keep pushing until you find them. That's, that's what worked for me. I'm not the smartest elk hunter.

You guys were just grinding them out basically because you weren't glass. You weren't able to glass them coming from feeding and watch them bed down like mine.

We did, but the other. But all everything else was just grinding coolies, man. Putting, putting miles in and like I said, being diligent. That's one thing I think guys get like after your first couple coolies of a day and coming over and like diligently glassing and not just exposing yourself, then it starts to get kind of monotonous and boring and then do you.

Guys are hunting all day just.

Oh yeah.

Glass and cool grinding, man.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Just like cover. Covering country. Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah. Because it's like, you know. Yeah, there was, there was a few five points I could have shot. I would have happily shot. No, most years. But we like. Yeah, we, we found. We found some smaller bulls and stuff. But we were. Look, it was still early in the hunt. Like both bulls got killed so early in the hunt. That was like we're trying to kill a six point man. Yeah, it was. But grinding. I, I don't know.

Are you surprised by where they go? What did you learn about like where they bed.

Where mine was bedded blew me away. I. I've been relooking back on it. I've been extremely lazy in my glassing for elk because they look so big. You think?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, they can't be there. Well, mine was bedded in a spot that you would think that maybe a mule deer would bed in. It was just such a tight little hole and it was clearly he'd use it to use it before he knew where he was going. He came over that ridge after his party the night before and he went to that spot and. Yeah.

And he left all the cows.

Left all the cows. Yeah.

Just went embedded in a little hole. No trees, no nothing. I think that's one thing. Guys who hunt out east tend to think like, oh, they're gonna go to this timber pocket. They look at Onx and like look at this timber pocket or that timber pocket. It' like man, these things will just bed in a coolie.

Yeah.

And like those mud banks. I feel like they like those mud.

Banks for sure, man.

It's like basically protects them on one side.

Yeah. If they. Yeah. They're protected from predators or whatever. And then like at parts of the day it'll give them some shade which might seem like.

Do you think those elk outies even care about predators though?

I don't know. I don't. I couldn't.

Or is it all shade?

I don't know. It felt like it's at least for us. It was so dang hot out there. Like we were like looking for those mud banks to get some shade.

Well, I also think that, like those mud banks are cooler, more shady than. Because a lot of the timber is not thick timber. Like, it's hard to get shade out of that timber. So I feel like a lot of those bulls, they like the mud banks more. Like it's cooler.

The deepest, deepest coolies and mud banks definitely are. There's cool air traveling. Right. It feels like.

Right.

And that's like when I've hunted the brakes a lot. It was like a lot of times it's like the deepest, darkest coolie that you find them in, they're just trying to get. They'll come out 15 minutes before.

But the ground says like the dirt.

Is cool, you know?

And I think that's the thing is like a lot of these timber pockets are not that cool or like it's not as comfortable. Right. Like, you go to, you find where they bed in these coolies. It's like it's soft, cool dirt.

100, man.

And I like that. Soft, cool dirt versus, yeah. Cactus.

And. Yeah, it's hard to find them in there. And that's where it's like being diligent as you're like, don't take three steps at a time. Don't move, don't. Horizontal steps are real bad. They see that route. Right. So it's like one little step at a time. And. And. Yeah, and just glass and glass and like looking for time. That's what. Yeah, shooting. Looking for bigger bulls is great just because you have that more room over the head. It gives you a little bit of forgiveness.

Yeah.

But it's still. Man, it's crazy how small they get in some of those. I just could not believe how tight of a hole he was tucked into you.

That's crazy. What's the name of the film and where can people find it?

Immersion. And it's on Matthew's YouTube channel. Yeah.

We'll put a link in the show notes too. So, dude, thanks for coming on.

For sure, man. It was great fun. Went down a different rabbit hole. We haven't touched on the gun stuff, but we could do that next time.

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. I think this is probably more interesting, so.

Yeah, for sure.

All right, buddy.

Thanks, dude.

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