Building Maps for Hunters: Jeremy Gilbertson on Bridger Watch & Elk Hunting

Foreign. This is the elk hunt podcast. Home to everything, elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics, and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. What's up, Jeremy? How we doing?

It's good, man. Life couldn't get much better. Had an awesome fall freezer full of elk, Got a sweet new job, so I can't complain.

Yeah, I was gonna say we. I was thinking about it before, I was like, I wonder if we should, like, kind of be like, oh, actually this is Jeremy's intro. Kind of like, you know, I guess a lot of people listen to podcasts, probably know I'm building this new watch company and you're. You're coming on board. I've not officially started yet, but I feel like this is a good, like, initiation. All employees have to tell me elk hunting stories, and we get to do a podcast talking about elk hunting and their journey. Maybe this should be like the interview process. Technically, even though you already landed the.

Job, I was thinking that one that you, Travis and David did, that should be part of the onboarding because that filled in so many gaps.

Oh, really? Yeah, it was funny because a couple of my. My. Actually, my wife's good friend, she was like, listening to it, which is funny that my wife friend listens to my podcast more than my wife does, and she's like, I didn't know you guys built your own operating system and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like. And I was like, yeah. So I think, yeah, you're probably right. Probably fills in some gaps. There's a lot of backstory in this journey we're on.

You're saying you didn't just, like, roll this out overnight and now we're here.

Yeah, yeah, now we're here. Yeah. So your role coming in for everyone. And you know, I.

Sure.

When did we meet? A couple years ago. And it was kind of on your elk hunting journey, which we'll get into. But, you know, you were at Trout Routes, then got acquired and you were at Onyx, and, you know, so I think along this journey of how do we build the absolute best wearable for hunters was we have to have great maps and we can kind of let the cat out of the bag as, like, we've been working pretty tightly with Onyx to reinvent, like, we're mapping on wearables, and I think there's some really, really cool, exciting things coming. But a part of that was like, I was just talking to you multiple times and being like, hey, you know, this or that or whatever. Because a lot of the things you had done at Trout routes were applicable to what we're doing at Bridger. And finally, you know, it was just like, hey, I need your help. And so, long story short, Jeremy's coming on to build the best.

His.

My. My ask to him or my. My thing to him was like, help me build the absolute best maps for wearables. And if you go back to that podcast we did with all the founders, like, how many times do we get laughed at because people told us, oh, you know, it's been tested. We've done customer studies, and no one wants maps on a wearable. And I was like, nope, wrong, I do. So we're gonna build it. So that's kind of your role at ridgerwatch is like, help us integrate with said future partner. Help us build the best thing out there. And, like, at the end of the day, this is kind of what it's all been about. Like, how do we build the absolute best product for our demographic? Right. And I think the more I talk with you, the more we meet about it, I think there's pretty big opportunity there.

Absolutely. Yeah. And to your point, like, people have said no one wants it on a watch. Well, no one wants it the way it's been done on a watch. That's. That's the problem. So I think there's a lot of opportunity here. And it's, you know, it's really good that I'm doing this as a career because I do it way too much on my own time. So it's gotta be. Gotta be part of the day to day, man. Yeah.

And the cool thing about you is, and we can get into, like, the journey, a little bit of, like, elk hunting stuff, but, like, you're also a runner, you're also a skier. Like, you. You know, you do these things. Like, you. You kind of have all these other aspects to your life, which I think a lot of hunters are runners too. But, you know, you and I have a lot of the conversations about, like, how do we actually build a great product for running too? Cause, like, this isn't just a product we're building that you wear on your elk hunt. Like, this is an everyday product. This is an everyday life. Like, I just wanted a. A better, everyday product, but it had to. It had to work really well when I'm on my big hunts, too.

Yep. Yeah. And that's. That's what I'm really excited to work on, too, is I'm not just going to use this in September. I'm already thinking about, you know, races I got coming up this summer. What do I actually need when I'm, you know, 50 miles deep into an ultra and can't straight? What's the bare minimum I need to see in a watch so I can get to the next station? I mean, yeah, it's. It's not just backcountry hunting.

Yeah. And I think the really cool thing we're. This is not the rabbit hole we were intending to go down, but I think the really cool thing that we're gonna have, like, as. I don't know, it's kind of like just a causation of what we built, which is. I think we'll have one of the best wearables for ultra running. Just like a. From who's building it, but, like, just how we built things. And, like, I think the battery life, like. Yeah, I do think that we could build a really great, like, product for ultra runners that's like, just a little bit better mapping in those instances, you know, when you're running those running, you know, it's like you'll run for 10 miles. You kind of know the route, you know the path. You don't probably need to look at your map all that much, but, like, you get above 50 and. Or above 20, probably, and it's like you're. You're like you're trying to figure things out. You're trying to like, okay, do I go this way or that way?

Try.

You're. You're using your maps a little bit more because it. It does turn into kind of a. A navigation exercise, if you will. Like in a lot of those big runs.

Absolutely. And even in the, in the race instructions for some of these courses. Yeah. On a. On a good day, you know, it's clear, sunny, you can see the trail. It's great. But they even say, you know, weather rolls in, get off the ridge and find your way back to town. Good luck. We'll see you at the finish.

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I guess as we're doing this. So right now for elk hunt, if you guys are elk hunters, another cool thing we just launched, it just went out today, is that we're. We're teaming up with Hunt and Fool, and we're giving away an $10,000 Elk Hunt voucher through the Hunt and Fool adventures. So you can use that for, let's say, a New Mexico landowner tag. You can use it for a full gated hunt. Can Use it for whatever you want. So that partnership is like, if you go purchase a Reckon with either the founder series or the regular. If we sell out of founder series. If you purchase a reckon with code HF, you're entered automatically entered to win in a $10,000 Elk Hunt voucher giveaway. So all my elk hunt peeps, if you're not yet and you're like, if you're interested in this, you should definitely get the founder series. There's no price difference between that, but there's a ton of great benefits. And it's going to be serialized. It's going to be like, there's going to be a ton of perks along the way. So if you were thinking about it, you might as well enter and get into the the Hunt fool giveaway. That's my little spiel for the watch right now. Uh, okay, let's dive into the podcast. Let's talk about your elk hunting journey. When did you start elk hunting?

Oh, man. Yeah, I started. Started in 2022. But, you know, I, I grew up in Minnesota. Your. Your typical Midwest hunting experience. We had deer camp, we'd go out to South Dakota, shoot some pheasants, did a little bit of turkeys in the spring. I just, I got kind of bored with it. You know, I got tired of hunting 60 acres. I love to explore, and this will, this will date me as a younger guy. But I was in college when covet hit studying biology. And all of a sudden I had, you know, pretty much my entire semester free during deer season. Just started exploring what public land we did have, and it wasn't enough. And I was, you know, just sitting around watching some videos one day after class and an elk hunting video came up and just thought that's something I had to do. And it threw gas on the fire, started looking up, you know, over the counter elk hunting. And everyone said, you're not going to pull it off as a new guy with no, no experience. Um, so I did what everyone does and googled where to go elk hunting, and Colorado came up and decided I better, I better give it a shot. Um, that's. That's kind of where it started. You know, I was just sitting buried in snow in minutes, decided I had to try something new. Yeah, I kind of have a habit of going all into when I tackle new problems, especially when someone says I can't do it. So I went overboard. I think I studied elk hunting harder than I studied school, which clearly it's worked out. I'm not recommending that to Any, any young folks out there, but oh for sure recommending that if you're passionate, learn all you can. So I was, I mean I was on, on forums, I spent way too much time on Rockslide. Listen to the El Hunt podcast, quite a bit. Anything I could find really. And that's where I started mapping as well. I had taken some GIS courses in college. So you know what, what could I do here to find elk? What can I do beyond just looking at Topo? So I started designing terrain analysis tools, pressure analysis stuff. That was before I found Mark's course, you know, Treeline Academy. Turns out he was doing the same things but and just got super excited. So I, I planned my trip for, for Colorado that year and just sent it. You know, I drove 16 hours from Minnesota after, after coaching our local cross country team, hopped in the car, wound up in, in Walmart 8:00am the next day, bought my tag and bombed into our unit. Had never been there before. And yeah, I made some mistakes. I drove up this road, tore the running board off my truck.

That was.

A good, good three hour drive in there and threw everything in my pack. You know, as, as a aspiring hunter should I decide I was going to do a six day backpack into the space in alone, right? Yeah. Crashed into the space and started blowing out elk. Like I, I dropped off this ridge, looked down, there's a bull directly downwind because I was just learning thermals too. He's gone. Jump over the finger. Another bull. So I better, I better stop the bleeding here. So I just set up my tent and went to bed. Uh, woke up the next morning, bugled, nothing. Um, started walking up the ridge. Cow called a little bit and one walked right in and I shot him at 40 yards. First day. No way. Yep. 36 hours from my front door and had a nothing huge, you know, over the counter, rag horn, bull on the ground.

But dude, I don't know if I realized that that's, I mean maybe it's a testament to either Mark's course or just like your mapping abilities but, but like that's impressive that you're like, I mean, do you think how much of that was luck? How in retrospect, knowing what you know now so much.

Okay, I went, I went back there this year after you know, 100 days in the woods every year guiding now for the last couple years and it took me 12 days to get on. So, so much luck. So much luck. But I wouldn't Albin, honestly, I think early success like showed me that it is possible and led to me, being able to keep doing it year after year, you know, I think I would have learned a lot too, going in and seeing nothing and having to grind it out. But just seeing that it can be done made a big difference.

I would also say, like, man, you had to have a lot of confidence. After that, you're like, I am the greatest. And like, that actually is a good thing. Like, it can be a flaw too. But elk hunting is so much confidence. Like, you have to. And I think when you get punched in the mouth enough, you like, you kind of just think nothing's gonna work and you gotta get down. It's so much easier to get into that mental state of like, this is never gonna happen versus, you know, you kill one right away. The, the downside there is either you're gonna lose the hunger or you're gonna, you're gonna just be all in passionate. I do feel like I've seen people be successful and then never really get the hunger. That doesn't seem like you. So I feel like you got the hunger. Probably wanted it even more. And then you were like, you had the confidence and so then you kind of doubled down. What advice would you give give yourself going into that first time looking back?

Oh man, so many things. Number one, get a better truck. Number two, bring buddies for a pack out. Yeah, but as far as the planning and execution, be patient. But when the opportunity is there, when the elk is presenting itself in a killable spot, just do it. And that's something I see guiding out too. You know, guys, they, they plan and they train and they, they practice all year and they get in there and they see elk and they, they panic. I don't know if it's, you know, paralysis analysis or they're just like you said, the lack of confidence. But if the elk is there, go kill it. It's just, it's an animal. Like, you can, you can do it. It's okay.

Dude, I, I 100 agree. There's so much like when you boil it down to like, hey, it's a, it's a forest horse that you got to poke with a sharp stick. And I hate to belittle it because there are people who are like, man, it's way harder than that. Like, I think there is some, some real benefit and in belittling it, like, and just saying, like, man, at the end of the day, I just got to poke that animal with a sharp stick. And I think people do get into this, this. Yeah, paralysis by, or paralysis by analysis where it's like oh, should I do this? Should I do this? And we talk about this in the podcast where it's like, man, you could listen to a couple hundred episodes of elk hunt and you might leave more confused than you when you began. And like, I think it's easy for a new hunter to get that and be like, ah, should I? Is the thermals right? Is the, you know, is the, is he in? Is the temperature right? Like all this thing like, you know, and you get into that. And I have been as guilty of that as other people when it comes to like big bulls, right, like for a long time, you know, you'd see that 350 plus bull and then, you know, like I would get that, be like, oh gosh, I gotta wait for the perfect opportunity. And I think there is something to be said for like, hey, is this high probability, low probability? This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Tricer. They make gear that's fast, light and simple. From amazing tripods to bino mounts, panheads, truck mounts, and now even bipods. Tricer makes gear that's fast, light and simple. I love their gear. And if you're looking for a new system for better glassing, check out Tricer. Head over to the website tricer.com they make great products and it's just a great company. Awesome dudes, been using the heck out of the bipod. Kill a lot of critters with it. Head over the the website, use the code TRO and you'll save yourself 10% at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Stone Glacier. And tell you what, I've packed out a lot of animals with my Stone Glacier pack this year. The Sky Archer 6400 has been with me to Alaska, British Columbia, Wyoming, Montana. And I love the thing, it's, it's, you know, whether it's a 10 day backpack hunt or your day hunting from the side by side. That's what I love about the Stone Glacier. It's minimalist, it's lightweight, you can use it day hunting or you can use it for an alpine backpack hunt. Great products. And Stone Glacier makes an entire suite of hardcore mountain hunting gear. So if you're in the market, head over to stoneglazer.com use the code TRO. You'll save yourself a little bit of a discount and get yourself some great gear. I think the best way to figure that out is to go screw it up. And I think, you know, to your point, like nothing wrong with. And I, I, I hate to promote this because there, there are People who are like, man, you're teaching dum dums to go, like just spook elk. So don't try to spook elk but like be aggressive and try to figure out how to get close. Don't intentionally spook them, but you're going to, you're going to mess it up a few times and that's okay because if, if the alternative to that is like, like I wait and I wait and I don't do anything or I half ass it and I spook them anyway. And it's like kind of gotta learn that aggression. Right? That's. Man, that is a huge piece of it. Like how to get close to El. Cause like just learning how aggressive you can be. Like what, I mean what was your journey with like figuring out how to be aggressive? Sounds like you were pretty aggressive out of the gate.

Yeah, yeah, I sent it pretty hard that first time. Um, I think that that really changed my, my second third seasons of elk hunting though. Um, you know, after I shot that first one, I, I stuck around in Colorado. You know, I'd planned this big 10 day adventure, so I brought the meat to a processor and I, I kept scouting and, and that helped me learn what I could and couldn't get away with. You know, after opening day, those elk got quite a bit more skittish in an over the counter unit. Um, but my next season I did the same thing. I was like, oh, that's how you elk hunt. You just hear a bu going run at them or you just run through a betting area. You know that, that first one I got didn't say anything. So that's what you always do. And I, I did that and turns out that's not what you always do. I got busted a lot and I really like to call too, and there with aggression is that you be aggressive in that one to two times a day that that elk. And, and that's what I've learned now is identifying that moment that you go right. I think that's, that's been the most important thing I've learned is when to crawl and when to run. Because you know, 80 of the day, you just got to sit there and wait and you got to wait for that opportunity. You got to watch the wind. You got to wait for that one bull to just make a little sound in his bed, whatever it might be. But if you identify that opportunity, you can't just take your time and just gonna walk over there and see what happens. You gotta go, you gotta commit.

Yeah. How have you, how, how has that Evolved. How is. I mean, maybe you could talk about guiding too. Just learning how to know when to, when to run and when to crawl. And that one of the hardest things to master in elk hunting and I think if I could, like, position the problem even better, is that when you get in this mindset of like, we gotta go, we gotta go, it's hard to actually bring that back because once you get in to, like, go fast, it's hard to slow back down or like, basically full pull back and like, we're go, go, go, go. And then this, this isn't feeling right, isn't looking right. That's actually. Let's actually move back 300 yards and let it mature a little bit and then we can go, go, go. I mean, what was your. What's your advice or what's your journey like? How is it? How's it played? Kind of. You've. You've had a few seasons, you've done a lot of guiding. Like, you know, what was. Lessons learned.

That's. It can be tough. And I think that's where experience comes in. Um, like you said, just screwing it up as many times as you can. At bats 100%. But for me, it's come from paying attention to. To things around the elk and around your target elk. Paying attention to what's going on in the woods, what's going on with the herd. I think a lot of people just get really focused on watching their bull or their cat, whatever you're after. Okay, he's facing that way so I can run up behind him. But, like, what. What is the herd eating? Are they moving? Is he moving his cows off? He's not running from your bu. You. You know, he's just. They're just going to bed. What kind of vegetation is he sitting in? Can I even move in where he's at? Real loud. Is it she. Is it not. Is it raining? Is the weather going to change? Are the shadows going to get longer? Is he going to be happy in that bed all day? I think just trying to look at it, at the entire system of what's going on around this elk is so much more important than what he's doing as far as, like actually getting into kiln.

Yeah. I mean, I think I've said this before. Hunting 301 will teach you a lot about how to successfully be a 201. And you're starting to think like a 301, which is, you know, understanding. Okay, this is the, this is the target animal, right? And so you have to understand the Macro a lot better. You know, the 101 guy is wandering around the woods making calls and hoping something stumbles into him. No. No understanding of her dynamics. No understanding of what, where elk are moving, what, like environmentals, like any of that. You know, the 201 guy understands that maybe has a good playbook and it's like he can find elk, he can get in there and he can. And he can run his little playbook. Maybe it's cold calling. Like, I can find elk and I can set up in calcall with my decoy. I can kill an elk every year. I think there's a, there's a pretty big gap between 201 and 301. But like the 301 guy is targeting, he's looking for the top 1%, right? Or maybe, maybe 5%, but he's looking for that one 1 or 2%. And what he has to understand is all of those things really well. So where is this bull going to go? And when you start having target bulls, you really start to understand elk way better. Because what happens is even at 201, you're like, let's just find it a six point. And that's great. I think that's a great goal for most people. Like, for everyone, it was like, hey, target six points. But what happens at the 301? I'm not even saying everyone should be a 301, but it's like you're a. You have to, you have to cover much larger areas to understand where each herd is. And you have to just comb through a lot more elk to find the 1%. Right? And once you do that, it gets really interesting because once you have like, here's my target elk to stay on that elk to stay on that herd, or if he leaves hers, which is even harder. Like, you have to understand the macro so much better because I think at 2001 you can understand a herd. You're like, this herd is kind of doing this. They tend to be here, they're smell coming and going. But when you understand where this bull named George is going and he, how he uses all of this entire unit, that get you like, okay, these herds have this dynamic. You got these multiple herds from here. Maybe this private is holding up some big giants and these giants are like moving 10 miles over here to look for new cows and like, you know, understanding those herd dynamics. But I think it's a really good lesson, even if you only ever wanted to kill six points because to your point, you're getting this bigger picture of, okay, what's the herd doing is there? When's the best opportunity for. For me to strike? When is, you know, like, yeah, he's in this pocket. Like, he went up embedded in this area. This area has really bad wind. But sometimes he likes to go over here, and that's really good. Or in the evening when he comes out and he pushes that herd down or the cow goes down here. Like, man, that. That's a really good opportunity because now we have better. Better thermals, we have better wind or whatever. And, like, understanding those is like, the difference between man see elk, man run down. And like, this is kind of like the opposite what I said about using a sharp stick to poking elk. But it's like understanding when the best opportunity for that is like, so you have to understand those herd dynamics and things. And I think guiding can really teach you that because you get the same areas. You get like, you're like, this is our zone, and we. You kind of learn what they'll do and don't do, which is really good when you're a DIY guy. I don't know if all DIY guys get as big of a macro view because you, you know, you get five days, and every year it's different. So I do think that, like, guiding can teach you a lot about an area.

Absolutely. Yeah. That's, I think, one of my biggest takeaways from guiding the last couple years. You.

We.

Our. Our outfitter, we started on public, and then this past season, we got. We're on two private ranches down here in New Mexico and just being able to watch the same herds with the same bulls and the same cows do the, you know, do different things every week. But seeing how they respond to pressure has taught me so much. Even like, when we screw it up, too. Like, we, you know. Yeah, it's private. These elk are significantly less pressured than. Than. Yeah, over the counter Colorado, you know, general. General Montana, but still elk. And yeah, they're gonna run. Probably. They're not gonna run as far, but they're still gonna run into cover, but they're gonna calm down. In the same way, the bulls are going to regroup the cows in the same way. And looking at. Looking at how our hunters that come in, I should give a little context on. On our outfitter, so we do things a little bit differently. Shout out to.

Shout out to El Gross and Joe and the guys. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. Shout out to my brothers in Cimarron. Joe. Joe. And our founders, they have a vision for. For what elk Bros should be. And it's not just, oh, we're going to walk you to the elk and you're going to kill an elk and go home. We actually have a course called our adventure camp. And as soon as you sign up for a hunt, we give you coursework through the summer. We get you on seminars, we do a whole training cycle. Everything from gear to archery, rifle, whatever you're using, Fitness, and then understanding elk. You show up to camp. We do two days of in the field training, which is a blast because we're doing it in the property. And you have an arrow knocked because we've been calling outside our cabin and have bulls responding to us. You never know. But then we go into the field and the first day or two, you're your coach. We call them coaches, not guides, because we are trying to teach, but your coach is kind of in the driver's seat. But we're telling you everything we're doing and why. But then the last three days, our client is actually in the driver's seat and your coach is just there as a resource. And so we get to see the elkwoods through their eyes because they're asking us all these questions and saying, hey, I think we should do this because X, y and Z. And you, you really do see the difference between my understanding of all of the herds on this property, what they're doing, why, you know, the big bulls are bouncing between the herds. They're not always going to be with the big herd out in the middle of the wide open valley. And then their understanding, which is like, all right, we got on this bull with five cows this morning. That is my whole world. What is he doing right now with these cows on this knob? Not what is going on all around him? Could another bull come in, try to kick him out? Should we try to be playing between these two herds? And yeah, like, to your point, I think even if you're not chasing a 350 bull, coming at it with the 301 mindset, even if you're happy to shoot any elk, gives you such an edge because you have options and you, you can put yourself in the best situation to encounter any elk in that whole area, not just the one that you see.

Yeah, yeah. A bunch of places I want to touch on the 301 thing. And like, one of the biggest reasons I think, you know, hunt like a 301 and you'll kill raghorns is because, you know, you're, you're putting yourself in a position of where the elk want to be. And I think when you're kind of chasing satellites, you tend to like not understand where the, the, the nucleus of elk is. And when you're like, generally the big bull is broadly speaking, but generally the big bull is going to be in the nucleus of elk. And that's where the satellites want to be. Sometimes they're off doing other things and they're migrating in and out. But like, if, if you can try to put yourself in the nucleus of elk, like inherently you're gonna just magnetize a lot of smaller bulls. And it's like I have to like push my way through those elk to get to the 3:50 and, and that's why I'm a huge believer. Like, man, if you wanna kill a, a, a solid six point, just try to hunt the nucleus. You don't, that doesn't mean you have to like only kill that bull, but you're trying to find that, that center of attention that all of those bulls are trying to be around. And what's happening on a macro is like at night they're all around that nucleus. And then in the daytime, you know, satellites are pushing out, they're kind of doing their own thing. They may go way off into a different basin, different drainage, and not even care about the nucleus. And I think people think that they are always around it, but they're not. Like, those elk could go move off and, and like stay in a certain area. And so you're, you're hunting these elk that are not in the nucleus then. And what's going to happen is like, yeah, they're bugling as they leave and then they shut up. And you're like, you're trying to find these rag horns in a timber patch, right? And you're not near it. But if you're like, how do I find the nucleus of this? And I think that's really interesting just is like, even if you want to kill a spike, if you're in the nucleus, you're going to kill a spike, trust me. But the point of that, the other thing I want to touch on, I think it's really interesting. I, so I went to, in college, I went to fire school. And in fire school you, it's like an 18 month program. You know, your first nine months you're you're the student, and the second nine months you're the teacher. And there's like this concept of like, the best way to learn something is to teach it. Do you feel like you've learned a lot from trying to teach it?

Oh yeah. I mean, at, at that's one. But two, Seeing. Seeing these guys do the same things that I did early on and screw up really reinforces those lessons. You cannot cheat the wind. You can't just run at them when they're looking at you. You can't draw your bow when you think his head's behind a tree because he's going to stop there with his vital shield and stare at you and then just. I mean, even for me, I still make mistakes as the coach, but in. In the environment that we have, that's okay. And it's a learning opportunity for everyone.

Right?

A fun example of that. My dad and uncle came out from Minnesota and did. Did one of our hunts with us. And we're walking this particular ranch. It's on the eastern slope of the Sangristos, and it's. It's deep canyon country, and then there's kind of cottonwood river bottoms, and we're. We're working along. We're going to go up this finger, and our wind's blowing right into the river bottom.

And my dad's like, yeah, I want to.

I want to send out a bugle. And I look at him like, are. Are you stupid? Like, our wind is going right in here. What are you talking about? And. But we're. We're supposed to, you know, let. Let our guys screw up and learn. So. Yeah, all right, whatever. Do it. And one response immediately. 200 yards downwind. And I definitely learned something there. You know, just because my wind looks like it's going in there right now doesn't mean I can just write that off completely. It might be swirling. Yeah, he might not care. You know, he's. He was bedded 200 yards off one of the county roads. Maybe he's used to people walking their dogs there. I don't know.

So.

Yeah, I learned so much by teaching and. And by allowing people to screw up, including myself. And not. I think, you know, that's another good point. When you screw something up, you can't throw a pity party. You gotta think about, why was he there, what was he doing, and how could I play that differently to get on him? Right? You can't just, oh, I screwed it up. All right, I'm gonna walk back to the truck, or I'm gonna go over the next ridge. If you don't take the. Take the time to think about why things almost worked, then you're not gonna learn.

Yeah. Yeah. So much. Or if you let your emotions change your behaviors, right? Like, you're gonna screw it up, and then what's gonna Happen is your emotions are gonna change your next behavior. And it's like, you know, it's the classic bad golf shot, right? Like your, your next one's not gonna be good if you let that get in your head. And hunting is basically just like screw up after screw up after screw up until it goes right. And once you understand that, like, I think it's a little bit better. I think, you know, one of the struggles for a new hunter. Anyone? Anyone? I'll take this advice is that, you know, it, that's just what it looks like, that's normal, like you're gonna screw it up. You could do everything right and you still have to have luck fall in your favor many times, probably more often than just like, oh, I executed that perfectly and I killed. No, it's like, oh, that didn't go the way I planned it. And like, that's okay. You know, when you look at it as like, you just have to, you know, have enough swings and you're gonna, you're, you're kind of a blind squirrel. And like, that's just what it is. Like you can try to put yourself in the best circumstances, but I do think, man, a lot of people beat themselves up and like, it's this downward spiral through like their 10 day hunt where it's like, ah, I just can't get this right. Ah. And it's like, I think if you have this mindset that it only takes one, but also like, okay, that didn't work. Next one, next one, next one. And you know, even calling, like you can get this year we spent a lot of time cold calling and you know, which is like, all right, look at the map. And like, hey, here's a nice thick pocket. We saw some elk over in this area. Let's just, let's just bounce every 200 yards. And cold call in these setups. And I think, you know, you get one call, one call, one call, and you start to get lazy and you're like, ah, there's nothing in here, right? And then you, you, you half ass it and an elk is right there. You stand up early as like, like that was our chance, you know, but it's like, if you execute well, focus on like, okay, what does a great cold call sequence look like? And how do we execute five a day, right? Like we're going to hunt the prime times, but during those slow hours, here's, here's the path we're going to take. We're going to search new areas so we're not messing up our core Elk. But we're going to execute great calling setups. That's it. We're going to be, you know, here's the timeline. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to have the win, right? And like, you do that enough times and like, you're going to call on an elk, like, it just. Just map.

They're. They're too curious not to.

Not totally. Yeah. And it depends on size, your property. One thing, you know, you had said earlier, like, oh, hunting public versus private. Do you feel like. Do you feel like it's tough to learn on public, or do you feel like, like, man, there. There's different dynamics, right? Because I could learn on private and I, I get more at bats. I think that's generally a good thing. Right, but do you think it's a struggle to learn on public? Or where's like, where's your mind on, like, goods versus bads? Like, there's pros and cons to both, I think.

I think, I think you learn different things on public and private, and I think that's. That's what's really, I think, helped me round out my outcoming skills as I've had both of those experiences now. I have struggled on public, and I've had tons of at bats on private. Private's great for, for getting at bats, for understanding elk behavior, for hearing vocalizations and, and just for being able to screw up. You can, you can get away with a lot a higher elk density there. And so I, I'd recommend, like, if you've never been elk hunting, that's a great thing to start with. Just you can see an elk. You can understand how they, how to spot them on a hillside if you have a lot of glassing opportunity, what they sound like, how far is that bugle? But I think what you can miss on private is seeing, seeing that macro unless you're on a massive ranch. What I learned on public, if they're going four miles away to bed, I can follow them and I can see what their entire day looks like or even what. How they're interacting with different herds in that. In that greater unit versus on private. You hit the fence and, oh, well, they're going to come back tonight. I don't know what they're doing today, but we'll be here. You kind of miss that, that whole part of it, like what they do through the day, what they do through all of September, too. You can follow them from the high country down into the valleys as snow.

Or pressure pushes them down okay, Fun thought exercise. You have to create the best elk hunter. You have to create. You got three to five years to do it. What, what hunts, what experiences do you think that that person needs to be a great elk hunter at the end of that five years?

Oh, man. I think getting a mix of terrain is really important. But yeah, I think you should. On just a stupid private ranch with hundreds of elk, they can see elk, see how, how they work, what they do and have them kill an elk year one, because then they, they have the confidence it can be done. They've, they've been there, they've seen what success looks like. Now they can start to work their way back from the kill. And then you should put them in a, in just an absolute trash unit. Super steep, gnarly. There's a couple elk, they don't talk. Show them that elk hunting is hard and what it takes to do it everywhere. Right, Because I think, I think another, another thing we see with some of our hunters, if, if struggling and getting your teeth kicked in doesn't motivate you, archery, elk hunting might not be the right sport for you. And then maybe, you know, go, go to a middle ground like I, I went, I had a Wyoming General tag my second season. It was hard terrain, but elk were willing to play. But it wasn't, it wasn't perfect. There was still pressure, it was still steep and deep. But give them somewhere where they can, they can use the skills that they've learned both with a lot of in person, up close interaction on that private and then the grind that they learned in that, in that really tough unit. Because then you can start to get at bats. You can kind of chase that on a macro scale if you're, you know, if you're in a general unit on public land and then that's kind of where I'm at right now. Like, I've had, I've seen a lot of stuff on private, done a lot of really hard hunts in public. I've only ever, ever hunted public. And then the pinnacle, like at the end of that five years, give them just a killer once in a lifetime tag where they can take that and use it and go, go shoot that big bull.

Yeah, dude. This is an interesting conversation. I feel like to your point, I don't think that you need both. Like you need to, you need to have the struggle fest. You need to learn how to find elk. Like, I do think being able to find elk is one of the greatest skills of an elk hunter. Because if you can't find elk you're not hunting elk and, and like in today's day and age, you're just not going to have a great tag every year. So in a lot of ways the thing that I think I had both of those. I had, I had. So I grew up in Oregon and I had this unit that I haunted that was a draw unit. I think it was pretty underrated. Like it's like a six point draw now, I think. And so I got to hunt it every year and I'd either have a bull tag or a spike tag, but I usually knew someone with a bull tag. So I was in this place and I had 30 days. So like I was in this place. It was like you're call, you're, you're in elk, multiple elk, multiple at bats a day for 30 days. Like so I had, you know, in that, call it six, eight years, I had like probably 20 years of experience to, to like compared to like the stuff I was doing in Idaho. And you know, I think even my Idaho hunts in those days, in the early days were really good in retrospect compared to now. But it's like so you, you get like a ton of app ads. But I also had this like I, I grew up on the west side hunting Roosevelts. So like I knew what struggle was. I knew how to like grind hundreds of miles per elk. Uh, and so like you get a little bit of both. I think the one skill that I would, I think I would impose, we'll just use my son, right? Like the one thing I want him to learn is like how to find elk. Like how to find elk when it's hard. Because that's even applicable in 301. It almost becomes more applicable in 301. Unless you're just like buy fancy ranch. But like when you have to grind out a 350 bull in a New Mexico unit, like, you just have to know how to find every herd of elk in that unit and be able to look them over without moving them. And then, you know, the next skill is, is how do you keep up with elk? How do you stay with elk? How do you find them once you've lost them? That's a, that's a whole other skill set is like, it's one thing I spent a lot of years, like I could find six points. I could find six points and I got to where I could kill six points. But like when you found that 350 bull and he goes missing, that is a very difficult problem to solve. Like, and without a team now I like I realize that Most of these 301 guys just have like a team of people, which is kind of what it takes in some places like New Mexico, Arizona. Like, you know, you have a team scouring to find this bull again, right. But it's like when you take that principle of like, how do you find a bull that goes missing, that, that's a really interesting skill set, which I think is just, it's, it's. How do you find elk in a unit? Compound it. You could take general season Colorado, right? It's probably equally as hard in a really, really tough Colorado unit or maybe like a general Utah unit to find a six point as it is to find a 350 bull in unit 27 in Arizona, right. Like, it's like we're working this hard, maybe 370bull in Arizona, but like, you know, we're working this hard to find. It's a skill set which is like I do, I take, you know, this giant area and, and, and find an like the elk in it. Right now one man is trying to just find 86 point in Colorado. The other guy is trying to find a 370 bull and he's going to see a lot more elk where the guy in Colorado is going to see no elk. But it's very similar in, in certain ways. Like, like people, you know, can say that, oh, it's totally different, but it's very similar. It's the ability to like take an area and reverse engineer and figure out where elk would be in that unit. And I think those are really important skills, right? Like, I think we all focus on how to call in an elk. Like it's the last, you know, how do we get in the red zone? Like those are really, I don't want to say easy problems. That is a skill, right? Like how do you dog herds? How do you call elk? How do you read elk behavior? Those are definitely skills you need. But in my mind, like if I'm going to create the best elk hunter, he's going to be really good at finding elk in a unit and doing that consistently and repeatably. Because when you can be on elk every day, getting in the red zone gets easier. When you find one herd elk or two herds elk per week, like it's everything is at best, right? Like how many opportunities are you going to have a season? So I think those are, I don't know. They're all, they're all needed skills, right? But like they all take their own thing.

I think that's what's, that's what's made me successful? Um, one of the biggest things, I mean I'm, I'm not gonna say I'm, I'm shooting three 50 bullets, right? Like, biggest BL shot was a two 76 point in Wyoming, which I was stoked. Don't get me wrong. That is in my mind, beautiful bull.

I got a stack of 270 bulls, buddy. And I was, I'm proud of them. Right? Like at those moments, those are giants, man. Like, don't. Yeah, 100%.

I, yeah, I couldn't believe it. But I think for me e scouting is such an asset and, and the more, the more different terrain types you can put yourself in, the more I guess testing that you, that you get and you can identify what's the bare minimum that elk need to survive and you start seeing those same areas everywhere else. And I've gotten to the point, I mean, yeah, it helps that that's my job is, is making maps and doing, doing analysis on landscapes. But I, I can, I can look at a unit. And I mean this, this year, everywhere we went had elk. Whether or not they wanted to play like the hard part anymore isn't finding where that herd is going to survive, right. It's, it's getting in close. And that would, that'd be another piece of advice I'd give to folks is invest in your knowledge of elk as a species and of the terrain and the landscape, the habitat that you're going to be hunting in. Because it's, yeah, north facing slopes, benches. That's great. But you know where, where I hunt in Colorado, you need, need, need grass. You know, just because you got a, a dark north facing timber slope that's five miles wide, there's nothing for them to eat in there. They're not going to be there. And that elk understand how to read maps, how to, how to identify the bare minimum. Food, water, safety, preferably running ground. But you know, you never know. They can, they can do stuff in crazy spots, right. But that's been such an asset.

So as a guy who like literally eats, sleeps and breathes maps, what advice do you have on looking at maps? How to find out.

Understand that as, as someone who's, who's new to this, the thing that draws your eye is going to draw everybody's eye. Especially like those, those giant features, the really big features. You and all your buddies are going to be there if you see that. You know that 500 acre meadow in the valley, it's got a creek running through it and it's got the Mega wall. You can see from space, take spots that you've seen elk in before, shrink it and try to find that in weird spots. Right. In weird places. And that for me probably comes from hunting a lot of really pressured public, but they really quickly figure out those onx holes. I think you've, you've talked about onyx holes before? Yeah, the elk know about those? Um, hate to break it to you, but yeah, I identify those big spots that do dry look like in the summer and then extrapolate that into smaller and smaller locations. That's where I found success. Like this year where I got my bull in Colorado, he was living in a 50 acre little pocket above the highway that you could glass but no one was hiking up the other mountain to actually be able to see in there. And you know, I'd seen in the summer range these elk around these giant tree lined meadows with wallows and great benches and stuff. But they quickly got pushed out of there by reason and people scouting for elk. This little spot had all those features but it, it was just so small and so out of the way that it wasn't drawing everybody else. No one was taking the time to look in there. I think that, yeah, that'd be a really big piece of it for guys.

Hey, that's, that's huge. And it makes me think of, I just had a conversation with someone. Oh, this is, I mean it was last, this last season. Not, not last year. But yeah, they show me this place and I'm looking at this unit and my problem with the unit is sure there's a lot of wilderness, sure there's a lot of north face, but there was, there was not enough micro terrain which is like everyone's going to look at this unit and hunt the few, the same few places, right? And like I don't know this, I've never been there. But like to your point, like nowadays if I, when I look at the tags I can get and those things, I am not necessarily. I'm looking for that micro terrain you're talking about which is like is there places I can get away from things people? Because a lot of these units are, you know, if they have only big terrain, like it's too predictable, right? Like, and it's gonna, it's gonna be very tough. Whereas if I, I always look at a unit like say I'm, I don't know, looking at onyx has their. I mean I keep calling it top rop, but it's not top anymore. But years ago aging myself but like, you know, you look at your, your, your percents, right? And you're like, oh, can I, I can draw this tag. The first thing I'm going to do is look in Onx and I'm going to try to figure out like, can I find a place I could, I could win. Right. And that takes a lot of years. But what, what that really kind of extrapolates out to is like, is there enough micro terrain for elk to get away from people and AKA me to get away from people. Right. Like without having to go, I'm looking for onyx holes, right. Like I'm looking for things other people aren't going to see or aren't going to hunt. You know, like little pockets. And if some units just don't have pockets, right. And they have big terrain, they could have a lot of elk. And you know, this is kind of one of the problems you run into with certain data points or data sets, which is just because, you know, the, the, the numbers say that there's this many elk or, yeah, this many elk in a unit doesn't mean that they're there in that time frame. It means they were there when they were counted. Right. And so if the state, pick a state, this is a classic example in Montana where it's like they do their counts in the winter, which is like, yeah, those units have those numbers in the winter. That doesn't mean that they're the same numbers in the summer and definitely doesn't mean they're the same numbers in the fall. And so like, are these coming from different units and things? Yeah. So like, I love the micro terrain. Stared at maps long enough, you start to like, see what you're talking about. Another thing you said was people will kind of, you know, go towards those big highlighters. Like Burns are classic examples of that where it's like, if it's perfect in all the ways that you think, oh, this is the perfect elk habitat, I like, I'm staying away from it. I know there's a bunch of dudes that see the same thing. I see. So trying to find those pockets.

Yeah. How, how I like to look at it too, in these high pressure units. Um, again, like elk, elk do need a certain set of, set of things to survive. Right. But I've stopped looking for, for places elk want to be and have started looking for places that elk can survive.

Right?

Yeah, like they, they could be there, they could live there. It's not ideal. And yeah, there might not be the giant pile that there will be in some other spots. But if, if I Find a spot that is, isn't great, but they could be there. I'm going to be the only guy in there, and I'm going to have it to myself, and I can work those out the way I want to.

Yeah. Another tip to that is like a lot. This is, this is giving away too much, but whatever. A lot of people, you know, they're, they're e. Scouting only public land, right? So I'm looking at this, I'm saying, oh, this is great.

Yeah.

But turn off all of that. Like, that doesn't matter. When you're trying to search a unit and figure out where the elk are, what matters is where the elk are that you can find. A lot of times, like, you may not notice that, like, this Private has all the things, right? Like, it's perfect. Sure you can't hunt it, but like, I'm sure those elk are pushing off a little bit. Or it's if, even if the elk are staying on the nucleus, right? The nucleus is on Private. Like, trust me, there's elk feeding off. Unless it's just, you know, 20 miles into whatever. But a lot of times, you know, I, I, I was very guilty of this. I was like, look at the green and yellow. What, what can I hunt in the green and yellow? And like, what looks good? Well, that's what everyone does. Well, it's like, take all that away. What would, what would change, right? If I could hunt anything, where would it be? Right? Well, my. Oh, man, this rant like this Private here. Oh, little Google search. Turns out, yeah, they kill a ton of elk on that place. Like, oh, that's such and such outfit. Okay. Like now I'm like, okay, how would the elk use this terrain macro if you know, if they are hunting it? Because sometimes it's a good thing. I found, like, some of the best ranches that don't get hunted are the problem. Like, they just suck elk in and don't, you know, whatever. So, you know, understanding that can help you see pockets that maybe you didn't notice before.

Absolutely. I had that last year too.

I had it.

I had a rifle tag. It was, it was pretty quick. But the particular unit I was in is, is really tough, really steep. Horrible blowdown. If anyone's familiar with New Mexico, they might know what I'm talking about. But that could be a lot of the state. But I was, I was looking at this spot and my, our outfitter had actually hunted in here. So he, he turned me onto the spot. But looking at it, you wouldn't think that there's any feed if you're just looking at the green, right? It's just dark slopes, nasty stuff. But if you actually start looking at the private, well, there's a whole bunch of ski chalets at the bottom of the hill with nice green lawns. There's plenty for the elk to eat in there. And that's Right. Ended up killing one, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Finding those, like, nooks and crannies like, like, and this is, I don't know, I would say different between archery and rifle man. You talk about rifle like you're looking for something completely different, you know, like. And I, I think when you talk about rifle man, understanding what an elk can survive on, that's where you're gonna find age class. Like, it's the bare minimum, right? And like, there's a lot of places and a crusty old bull can survive by himself, which is, you know, basic understanding of you're not looking for where a hundred elk can survive, you're looking for where one elk can survive and he's gonna have a pattern that equals age class. And when you start thinking from that perspective, like, this elk has to kind of have found a, a post rut location that's gonna let him live, you know, a long life. And like, yeah, that's the. I love rifle hunting for that reason. Which is like, how do you find that needle in a haystack?

In your experience, do those locations change year to year depending on the bull? Or you find those big, you know, post rut holes in. Is that the same place year after year that they get driven to?

I think it, it can be either. I think, you know, there's this, this, this concept of like, a bull is really smart and, and therefore he gets old. I don't know if that is entirely true. It could be said bull is sporadic and like, he's not predictable and that's what kept him alive. You know, age was a, was a correlation, not a causation. And so, like, he's just, he does weird things. I, I do think, you know, a better way to look at it is like the bear example, right? For a bear to be old, like bears live so long, like to be 20 years, they kind of have to live in a spot where no one's looked for 20 years. That' insane stat, right? An elk is like, yeah, let's say 8 to 10 years old. Like, he either has to live in a spot where no one is looking or it's very unhuntable or whatever. Which I think there's a lot of elk that kind of go back to the same places. You know, they have their little haunts. And then I think you have some bulls that are a little bit sporadic and like, they're just, their personalities are like, you know, they just wander. Right. Generally, I think those bulls are probably going to get killed more just out of like. Yeah, they're not. They're wandering, right? And they're getting shot in somewhere they've never been before. Whereas like, when I think about like, if you want to. How do you find a 10 year old bull? Well, a 10 year old bull's got to have a pocket that you can't see from anywhere. He's got to have a place that he goes to and it's just difficult to hunt. So like, it's like almost the reverse of archery hunting, which is like archery hunting. You're always looking for like, oh, what's a huntable terrain? And like when I think about rifle, I'm like, what's the most unhuntable terrain in this place? Like, that's gonna, that's just gonna create old elk, that's what. So when I look at E Scouting, I'm not looking at, I think most people are. How do I see the most? Right? And I, that's not terrible advice for. That's not terrible advice for like really, really premium units. And if you take, if you go work backwards from that, you say like, okay, I want to be able to see every basin, every canyon, right? I know there's probably not a 10 year old bull or even an 8 year old bull in any of those canyons that you can see really, really well. So I say, what's the hardest to hunt? Like, what is, like, what's a real pain in the ass? Like, even if I did see it, how would I shoot it? Like, and like, what's the worst spot in this unit? Like, that's generally going to produce a big hole. Now, not always. Doesn't mean there's an elk there. And so then you have to work backwards from like, how do I efficiently cover this ground? So how do I take all the really crappy spots and loop them together with glassing points that are smaller? So if everyone in the world is looking at where's the best glassing knob in this unit? Which, you know, hunting Arizona will teach you this. Like, there's no secrets. Like, all the good glassing knobs are like pretty like someone else is there. Like, it's not hard to figure out. So I, I tend to like, okay, how do I Hunt micro glassing units and then how do I loot, like how do I fit, be more efficient, right? And so like if I can find these three and loop them into like, okay, I'm here, I'm here. That's, I mean that's just trying to think outside of the box. I don't know if that makes sense.

I think that's, that's a really good point too. And I know, I know you're, you're a proponent of this already, but like that, that efficiency is so key. It's so key. How many times do you run into guys in the woods? Oh yeah, we haven't seen anything here for five, six days. Well, why are you here then?

Yeah, right.

Yeah. Whether you're looking for, for big bulls or just elk, covering as much as you can is so important.

Yeah, yeah. And like, yeah, that's how, you know, you talk about maps and planning and stuff. Like to me it's so key is like how do we build a plan that's efficient, right? How do we hunt this efficiently? And that's, that's a, a balancing act with how do we stay away from people, how do we find the pockets? Like, and this is all like when you think about your help plan, right? You're like the most efficient plan is probably also not the most effective, but like where's the line, right? So how do we find, how do we balance efficiency and effectiveness? Which is like, you know, I'm covering a lot of ground, but I'm covering good ground. Like I'm, I'm staying away from the big areas, right? And like that's, I think that's when you become really deadly.

Yep, that's exactly it. Yeah. Like when, you know, I have buddies that I took out and they, they hear me say we gotta cover crap, we gotta find elk. And so they just start running trails, right? They're going 10 miles a day, covering everything. But they don't check that little hidden seep up the hill cuz it's 500 yards out of their way and they're not gonna be able to run their whole trail.

Right.

I think that's that, that is that perfect blend of efficiency and effectiveness. A five square mile block of terrain. Where are you actually gonna see tracks, right? Like check those little water holes, check those creek crossings, check the mud. Like do that really fast and then move on. Cause if they're there, you're gonna find it.

Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's like, you know, if I, if you and I were together in camp and I'm like, dude, I cover 30 miles a day. You'd be like, ah, too much. Yeah, I think there's a reason. 30 miles, you didn't see anything.

Did you look around at all?

Yeah, yeah, you did. 30 miles. But like, I don't really, you know, whatever. And so, yeah, it's that, it's that blend of efficiency and effectiveness that's so important and trying to, you know, like, to your point, like, cover the most, cover a lot of ground, but in really good positions, really good ways. Right. Like, and again, it's going to depend what you're looking for. But dude, a hundred percent, what goes into planning, like, that is the most important.

Yeah. Another big one. You asked earlier what would be my biggest advice to someone new? The other side of that, along with planning, Reduce your. Reduce the decision making you have to make in the moment when you're tired, hungry, stressed, haven't slept in days, have, have that plan. And you don't have to know like, I'm going to, you know, A basin, B basin, C basin, but if X happens, I'm going to do Y. Right. Like scope that out for yourself. All right. There's no alk here. I'm going to what, get in my truck or I'm going to just keep running around or I'm just going to keep bugling until I hear something. Hopefully not. But make, make those decisions ahead of time because that. I think decision fatigue is such a thing too, when you're in the woods. I mean, even, you know, day three, I've seen it in guys, like, they just, they're so tired, they're so stressed out, they don't take the time to think in that moment. They just keep doing. So if that's. You have a plan for what you're gonna do at that. In that moment.

Yeah. Do you want to hear some. I'm gonna let some secrets out. So Jason and I have been working on what whoop for hunters would look like. And when you talk about expedition level stress and endurance management. And so like, if you hypothetically, you're on a five, six day hunt and you can watch that, you can like basically run at that optimal level of like, hey, you're at a, you're at a position where you're gonna start making bad decisions. And you can see that. Right. Like, and then like even going like, hunt readiness score could be something where it's like how your ability to manage mental capacities and mental fatigue and physical fatigue and all those things. Like, I'm not saying you need to Slow down. But like, you know, if it's something you can measure and it's like think about it from running an ultra, right? Like, you know, through enough experience that if I go out of the gate just gung ho, I'm never gonna make it to 100. Right. And so like, think about that from a perspective like as a whoop level device that could measure your hrv, measure your, your sleep, measure your heart rate, and then give you tweaks or advice throughout the day. So you're like, you're, you're, you're managing, you're managing this for a 10 day expedition and not for a one day or a two day like ultra, right. Like it's very much long term thinking and like, so that's one of the things. Yeah. Anyway, cool stuff we may or may not be working on.

That'd be a, that make a great commercial too. You know, like in the, in the Snickers van, you're about to do something stupid and eat a bar.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, secrets to some cool stuff we're working on that I think could be game changing.

You ever. I mean, I'm sure everyone's been there, but you have those moments in the woods where you're, you're just grinding and you're tired and just stop and you're like, wait, what the heck am I doing? This isn't, this isn't working. This isn't like actually pushing me to find elk. And that's, that's another thing we see with our clients too sometimes. You know, they, they get frustrated or we haven't been seeing elk and, and they just start walking like, head down. And I'm, I'm guilty of this too. I love my onyx, but head down, staring at the onyx and I gotta stop them and say, all right, if there's an elk over there, how are we gonna know? Are we just gonna walk right by it? What's your plan here? Because they, you know, there should be an elk over there. Are you, you're looking at your map. Are you paying attention to where we are slowing down? Being, being always mentally ready is so important too.

Right.

On a different vein, my Wyoming hunt, same thing we were on. We're on day eight and I'm toast. It had been raining for six days. Boots are, have been soaked through, feet are shredded. And my buddy and I are sitting on this knob hour till dark, and we hear a bull just screaming down in this basin like 500 yards off the ridge. And we're sitting there like, oh, I don't know. Should we, should we go in there? We're kind of tired. He rolled his ankle and then it just hit me like a ton of bricks. What am I doing? He's standing there telling me where he is every two minutes. Go run.

Yeah. And like, I, I, I mean like, these are things you learn over time as like, you know, you, you learn what you are capable of and those things. But if we look at the wearables industry as something like, okay, how do we, I don't, like, this isn't like, I don't want to pick on garments like, you should rest day. Like, I don't think that'll ever be in our ecosystem. But it's like, hey, push it. You know, like, but like finding the ways to like check mental cognitiveness and be able to manage it on a, on a long term basis is really interesting to me. And it's like, I think it could actually help you push harder and, and like help you see what you're made of. And like, I mean, you like integrate that with mountain tough or like some other version where it's like you do some kind of training event where it's like, oh, now I get to like measure this and figure out, you know, where my baseline is and those things. And then like, I think it gives you the confidence to push harder. But like, it looks, it looks at it at a different level.

Yeah, there is a cool parallel for that too in, in like the running world. Um, but like, people really like to focus on the big crazy workouts or the, the speed and stuff. But for, for an ultra, for example, it's really just about time on feet and 100. How long can you be out there? How long have you been out there? And so for hunting, if you can maximize, even if you don't have all the fine skills mastered, if you can maximize how long you can actually just be in the woods, your success is going to go up exponentially.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean that's, yeah. Number one thing is like, yeah, you talk to enough great hunters and they'll all tell you, I'm not that great. I just spend a stupid amount of time in the woods and get lucky. Like, take a note, how do you do that? You want to be a great elk hunter? Figure out how to hunt 15 days a year. Simple math. Like, it's simple math what you're talking.

About with the watch too. That's so important because people think that they can just be out there, oh, I have my, I have my 20, you know, peak Refuels and all, all my food. But staying out there that long and, and being there mentally is a lot harder than it sounds. Even just not getting good sleep, walking every day, being on your feet, even if you can, you know, bench 300 or whatever, you're in crazy shape all day is a thing. Like that's a, that's a skill you got to work on.

Totally. And I've spent, I've been really fortunate to spend a lot of years, you know, 20, 30 days a year. And like, trust me, like, I understand what it takes to hunt hard and I can hunt as hard as anyone. But like, I don't, I'm definitely not doing that. Like, you know what I mean? Like I'm managing for a marathon. Like, sure, you may be able to run a six minute mile, but like you're not just gonna try to go run a six minute mile and you got a hundred more to go. Like, it's just stupid, right? You're not managing those things. And in a lot of ways hunting is kind of similar. It's like if you want to be good, you need days. I really like days are more important than how hard you want. I used to think I could roll in and a five day window just out hunt everyone and not sleep, right? I'm gonna hunt all night, all day. Like I'm finding more elk. Like all these things. And the reality is, is like elk, it just takes being in the right place at the right time. And that is days that is like waiting. You know, you have to have patience. Like you have to, you know, finding those elk, you can't just force your way, way into it. Like so many times it's like, well, let's wait till tonight, right? And then like let's see what they do in the morning. And then like you're, I mean you just burn two days right there. And like, and yeah, it is very much a patience game. And I, great elk hunters have lots of days. If you want to be a great elk hunter, I don't think it's a terrible decision to try to figure out how to hunt more days. Like I, and I, I blame the guide industry because guides operate on a seven day window. And so guys, DIYers tend to be like, oh, so you know, seven day hunt, right? Yeah, that's enough. Well, it's enough for the guide who's been hunting the week before for 10 years, right? Like he's hunted that same place. He knows, like, he knows all the details. There's a giant piece that's missing from that he doesn't have to deal with, which is like, finding out and knowing what they're gonna do. Like, all he has to do is get you close to it and that's it. And hopefully, you know, you can make the shot. But, like, outside of that, he doesn't have to find elk every day. You know, for the most part, maybe he does a little bit.

But that's a fantastic point for people to wrap their head around. Like, think about that. The. The outfitter is saying that seven days is enough. When I have this herd already located, I start, and now I need seven days to kill one. Yeah, think about that. When you're planning your trip, you need.

Seven days minimum to figure out what he knows, right? Which is, like, here's where the elk are, here's what they're doing. Like, all of those things. Like, and like, the harder the unit, the more days you need.

Yep.

Yeah. Like, I spent 16 days on a over the counter. Now over the counter on an Arizona unlimited hunt. And like, that's. God, it took me 14 of those. Maybe it took me 12 of those to, like, figure it out, right? And then it's like, now I got four days to kill this elk. Like, that's. I don't think that's unrealistic numbers, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so many times, like, I've killed. I've killed on the last day twice, and the second to last day once, you know, and first day once, which is great. But it usually by the time, if you plan, you know, all right, you got 10 days, you're driving for a day and a half. You're coming from the east coast and you're driving back for a day and a half. You got, realistically, six days of hunting because you're going to drive to town and get a burger for a day, right? That's not a lot of time. And you're usually figuring it out by the time you're headed home.

Oh, yeah.

Gave yourself another week. You're. You're money, you're in it, dude.

This year, my Montana hunt, we were on a private, very difficult hunt. I think we had, gosh, I should look this back eight or nine days. It wasn't. It wasn't seven. It was eight or nine. And it like, by four, I was like, oh, we got a game on. Like, we gotta start hunting real hard. Because it was like, you know, like, first day, like, I got time, know, whatever. And like, all a sudden it's day four and you're like, I got four days left. And I don't know what's going on around here. We gotta like kick it up three notches and like we're, we're hunting hard. Like it's good time and like, and I know better. I think maybe like it caught me off guard because it was like it was supposed to be private and like, you know, you think you're hunting something fancy, but classic example of like, man, when I used to show up in Idaho, it was like I would have seven days and I would go hard like just all day, all night if I had to like sleep when, sleep when I hit. Like, couldn't go anymore. And don't know if that's entirely necessary. But you know, when you only have seven days, I think it is like you have to like optimize. Oh absolutely. Yeah. More days makes your life easier.

When you're learning, when you have as much experience as you do, you can be tactical, right. With, with your energy, with your time, when you're earning. I get those opportunities because you know, in an over the counter unit, in a general unit, even if you really know what you're doing, you might get three like I hunted this year unit. I know really well we were into elk every day, but realistically, I had three shot opportunities in 12 days, right. And we blew two of them because a little miscommunication with my partner. But.

And dude, that happens. That happens. That's why a huge believer focus on abats because you need them. You know, everyone I think gets romantic about, you know, going in the backcountry and like hunting elk that have never been seen before. But it's like, dude, those are even less. It's just the guys that are really successful doing that, like they're, they're every opportunity they're going to capitalize on because they've done it a lot. And yeah, I think there's, I mean, I don't know. I say that sometimes you can get more opportunities in the back country. Like I don't know. There's a lot of variables there. But yeah, more days gonna be more successful. Efficiency and effectiveness. Balancing those hunt plans. Like all dude, all great advice. Did. Thank you so much for coming on any. I guess we'll shout out to elk bros again if people want to check out that whole program. I think it's, I think it's a great program. Yeah. What's, what's the details behind that and who's it for?

Yeah, so Elk rose, we are. We're not looking for someone who's just wanting to show up and have us walk you out to a big bowl. We do have huge bulls in our ranches. We took, we took a 370 this year and there, there were bigger ones in that group. But maybe I shouldn't have said that. It might have.

I'm in. Sign me up.

We're. We're really looking for. You know, it doesn't have to be your first elk hunt, but if you are there to learn, that's what's most important. If, if you show up and you just want to be handed an elk, you're not gonna. You're not gonna enjoy the experience because we're gonna put you in tough situations and ask you what to do, and you're gonna stand there staring at us, and the elk's gonna walk away. This is for someone who wants to be fully immersed in a training experience, you know, all spring, all summer, and then you show up and we're gonna give you the tools to successfully, but you have to be willing to like, actually engage and do that. That's. That's for archery hunts. And we do have one coached rifle hunt where you get the full. The full training, the full experience. We do also have got teaching guide rifle hunts. So again, we are, we're taking you out and we're allow you to screw up if we can help it. Those are, those are more we're trying to get you on out. Those are gonna be in the fall, later in the fall, usually those October through November. Still great opportunity on elk. Our. Our properties are beautiful. The Martinez, if you go on our website, you can see them. The Martinez property is more high country, mixed conifer, beautiful open open buys that northern New Mexico is known for and then is more that desert canyon country. It borders two other incredible private properties, the Vermejo Park Ranch and then the Philmont Scout Ranch. So we do get. Get some pretty nice bulls that, that wander on through there.

So what's. What's up with getting the. The tags? Is it, do I have to draw or can I just purchase and you guys have landowner tags? Like, what's the situation with getting a tag or getting a hunt?

Great question. Yep, we, we do have landowner tags and those are included in the price. The tag fee for the state is not included. So there'll be that extra six or $700 to the state of New Mexico. But we their tags for all our hunts. We will also put you in on the Martinez property for the public draw. Draw one of those through the lottery. You can hunt our property and all the surrounding public as well. Which is great because the elk, you know, they do what they want. Cattle fence is not slow them down. Yeah, but it's, we've had really good success with our hunters. You know, everyone's getting opportunities but the, you know, coming home with an elk, that's, that's up to you.

Nice, dude, that's awesome. I love that model. And I told Joe that like I was like, I think it's great. I think they, I, I get a lot of requests for it. I'm sure someone from this or multiple people from this episode are going to be like, yeah, hook me up. So, yeah, appreciate that. And welcome, welcome to Bridger and I guess you pass initiation, you're an elk hunter. Yeah, yeah, I think we can take it. Um, yeah, man, thanks for coming on. We'll put links to the elk pro stuff in the show notes and we'll also put links up for Richard Watch. If you guys are interested, check out the founder series pre sale going on right now. Watches are going to ship in probably early February, mid February, about that time. So almost here.

I can't wait. It's going to blow people away in.

All right, buddy, thanks again.

Thanks, Cody.

Alrighty guys. Thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's a hundred percent free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes or you can check our website www.elkhunt201.com.