Peak Rut Isn't When You Think — And It Might Be Costing You Bulls

This is the Elk Hunt Podcast, home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody Rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics, and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Tricer. They make gear that's fast, light, and simple, from amazing tripods to bino mounts, panheads, truck mounts, and now even bipods. Tricer makes gear that's fast, light, and simple. I love their gear. And if you're looking for a new system for better glassing, check out Tricer. Head over to the website tricer.com. They make great products and it's just a great company. Awesome dudes. Been using the heck out of the bipod, uh, killed a lot of critters with it. Head over to the website, use the code TRO, and you'll save yourself 10% at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Stone Glacier. And tell you what, I've packed out a lot of animals with my Stone Glacier pack this year. The SkyArcher 6400 has been with me to Alaska, British Columbia, Wyoming, Montana, and I love the thing. It's, it's, you know, whether it's a 10-day backpack hunt or your day hunting from the side-by-side, that's what I love about the Stone Glacier. It's minimalist, it's lightweight, you can use it day hunting or you can use it for an alpine backpack hunt. Uh, great product. And Stone Glacier makes an entire suite of hardcore mountain hunting gear. So if you're in the market, head over to stoneglacier.com, use the code TRO, you'll save yourself a little bit of a discount and, uh, get yourself some great gear. How are you?

Good, Cody, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

You also. Sorry, I was, uh, I had it pulled up and apparently it wasn't in the right place.

All good. I was like kicking people out. I started talking to people in my studio, and I was like, all right, you guys got to leave. So, uh, I was trying to fix my background here. Do that once I'm in. Video and effects, backgrounds, none. There we go.

Nice. All right, can you see me? Hear me okay?

Yes, sir. Looks good.

Cool. Perfect.

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't have a huge agenda. We could talk about kind of what we discussed a little bit. I usually just wing it. So easy conversation stories do well. I mean, you're a podcaster, so I feel like I don't need to tell you to rambling does well. So all of those things.

I'm a good—

I mean, who can't ramble about elk hunting? Do you really trust a guy who can't talk about elk hunting for an hour? Make sure I hit record. Everything's in my way. I think it's recording. All righty, Matt, welcome to the podcast. How we doing, man?

I'm good, Cody. I really appreciate you having me on. Humbled to be here.

Oh geez, I mean, look at the stack of elk behind you. Like, I feel like that's qualification enough.

All I got is like mule deer on my videos and tell me that, uh, I just got a bunch of tiny bulls back here.

So, well, I mean, hey, if those are tiny bulls, then we're doing all right.

I've got a lot of good stories. That's all that matters to me. A lot of fun memories.

Oh, totally, totally, dude. I'm, I'm stoked to have you on. I've been, uh, seeing your content, watch your content, actually listen to one of your podcasts. And, uh, the other day you were talking about— this is on a social post— but you're talking about preparation and having a plan. One of the things I told you, I was like, man, I love this concept of everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth. And it's not that you don't have a plan, it's not that, God, you weren't prepared even. Like, I feel like you can you can be in shape and still like show up on a hunt, get punched in the mouth, and then want to go home. And I'm not saying like that's a quitter's mentality, but like just so many of the hunts. And I think what you get with lots of years of experience is like you've been there, you've had the doldrums, the no elk days. You've been like, I can't figure this out. You've had the no people everywhere. You've had all these things. You're like, okay, I just got to work through it. Just got to work through it. Got to work through it. And I was like, that would be a fun conversation. So I don't know, let's start with the story though. Let's start with like, do you have an elk in memory that it's like you stuck it out and it all worked out?

Yeah, yeah, I have lots of those because I think that over the years it's, it's just stubbornness. It's, uh, the love for being out there. If you don't love it, you know, you're not, you're not going to stay out there through all that hard stuff and the ups and downs and, and I don't know, I've just always had a thing for suffering. I've always had a thing for thinking about myself as not being very good at very many things in life, but I am very good at being stubborn and I have an ability to suffer. So, so I have lots of suffering stories. Not probably not all the best, smartest stories, but you know, last year was a good example, Cody. I didn't kill until September 28th. Started hunting on September 1st, um, and hunted. I think I only missed 4 days in between there. Uh, started off hunting a particular area where my son had killed a bull last year. He didn't have it, or the year before, didn't have a tag there last year, but he, he felt like it would be a good place for me to go. We could get up high, grueling. Sometimes I think that he sends me in places that are just grueling to begin with, just because it would be funny. But anyway, it was a grueling grind to get in. Takes me an hour to about to get to where I can glass from, most of that vertical climbing on the way in, and, uh, can see a lot of good country. And he just thought that would be good for me. We kind of had a plan for what the elk typically do in that area, and I got up there the first morning and I didn't see an elk. And so, uh, so I dive off into the country and I'm like, yep, he just sent me up here for a good hike, I think. But, uh, No, he had some good spots marked on the map and, and I went and checked out a spot where he had killed his bull and, spent a lot of time in there, saw some decent sign. But I can remember walking out of that spot, texted him and my dad and said, yep, probably won't be going back there. Really isn't my style. And, I think I hunted the second and third day some other places, ran into a bunch of people. So that was kind of a bummer. It was in the middle of the week and I didn't expect to see anybody. So that's always kind of a drag when you see them in places you don't expect to. But and then so I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll give that spot another chance, you know, at least there were no people in there. So I get in there, I think it was the 4th day and, and I find a really good bull with a couple of bachelors and I don't think I got on them that day. I think on the 5th I went back in there, tried to make a plan, tried to figure out the wind and, and where they were transitioning from fed— feeding to bedding. And I don't think that I had an interaction that morning until I was on my way out and I was kind of coming down a shaded finger. It was, it was real warm, probably in the 80s, which is real hot for southeast Wyoming that time of year. I came to a spot that there was a bunch of tore-up ground. You know, a lot of times they'll, they'll tear up some, some dead trees or whatnot, kind of make sawdust out of it, and I feel like they like to pee in it, roll around in it, kind of make like a sawdust wallow. And so there was one of those spots, and I started looking around. There were a bunch of rubs, and it just was kind of a cool place to sit down. So I sat down again. It's 10 o'clock. I think I'd kind of turned my brain off. On elk hunting at that point because it was, it was so warm, hadn't heard anything. It's still early September. Uh, get a snack out. I know I had onX out and I was kind of making a plan for what I was going to do for that evening. I was really disgusted with this spot at this point. And for some reason, something in me, even though I had my elk brain turned off, it— I was like, yeah, maybe I should just throw out some cow calls while I'm sitting here. So grab my diaphragm, throw out a couple half-hearted cow calls, go back to onX, and out of the corner of my eye, a couple minutes later, I see some elk coming through about 35 to 40 yards. And the big bull was, was coming in with the two bachelors. And obviously that didn't work out. My scent was blowing right down that, that cool little finger right at him. But I got enough, a good enough look at him that time where I was like, okay, I'm I'm invested in this bull now. I've seen him twice. So over the next couple of weeks, I started hunting in there more and more and trying to figure it out a little bit better. And every time I got in there, or every other day I got in there, this bull— I found him quite a few times and he would have more cows. So the next time I see him, he's got 4 cows. The next time I see him, he's got 9 cows. And that particular day, I— it was a little bit earlier in the morning, and I saw him coming down from a place that they had been bedding on, on or been feeding on a different side, and they were headed into the bedding area. And I hustled up, tried to intercept them, got set up, started doing some cow calling. He started actually screaming, but I don't think he was talking to me. I think he was just talking to his cows. And they ended up kind of moving by me. They went down behind a rock pile, and I was like, man, I think I could maybe sneak around that rock pile if they're not moving too fast. So I sneak around the rock pile. It kind of had a dilemma on where I was going to go and ended up coming around the side that I shouldn't have went around. He ended up being about 80 yards. And so I tucked back in. I'm like, man, this close. I know it's early September still, but I bet if I scream at this sucker, you know, I'm going to get him, get him a little irritated with all those cows. So I scream at him and he just takes those cows and I watch him disappear over the hill. He had zero, zero interest in engagement. So a couple of days later, get back in there, find him again. He's got probably, I don't know, I don't think it was quite 20 cows. Didn't work out that day. I had snuck in, found him down in a little, little drainage as they were feeding up. And I just, I didn't want to push them out of there. So I got in pretty close, good shot, a younger bull, and passed on him. Let them work their way up the finger. Nothing worked out. A couple of days later, got into him again. So I'm still chasing the same, the same elk, which never happens in our country. I never get a chance to do that. Usually it's so thick that it doesn't work out. But he was hanging out in a burn. That was overlooked by everybody else. So I kind of had him to myself, and I'm just trying not to blow him out of this area, get into him the next time. And I know there's a whole bunch of cows with them. It's pouring rain, and he's just bugling his head off, just going crazy. And I'm like, okay, well, as long as he keeps talking, I'm not saying a word. I'm just going to get as close as I can. And I'm trying to pinpoint and working in, working in, working in, and I end up getting busted by a cow that was probably I don't know, 300 to 400 yards away from him. And as I watched this cow spook, I realized that now he's probably got 3 dozen cows with him and they've been spread out over a couple hundred yards out feeding in the rain.

And wow.

Anyway, great learning experience there. I actually followed that herd up. They kind of went around the mountain and it was cool because I got up on the very top and he was doing roundup bugle trying to get all those cows grouped back up. And what was cool about it was they they probably stayed only maybe 300 yards below me once I got up on top. And they were moving, covering some country, but I didn't have to move hardly at all. And I could kind of keep tabs on him because he kept screaming. And pretty soon they got into a nice dark nasty finger on the backside of this hill, and he must have been content. And they ended up kind of just piling up and bedding up in there. And so it was pretty cool to see how they moved after I had spooked them. You know, they didn't just leave the country. I wasn't just kind of guess— guessing or wondering where they went. I knew that didn't actually go far. So that was kind of cool for future reference, you know, just to be able to file that away, that they don't necessarily just boogie on to the next county, you know.

Yeah.

Um, my kid, by this point now we're into like, I think we're at probably September 25th by this point, still, still focused on this bull. I tried a couple of other things. I did take a day or two where I went and hunted other places and didn't work out. And, uh, my kid had a tag in Colorado and he had a limited quota Wyoming tag and he killed big bull, both of his big bulls and and he was done by the 25th. So I said, hey, Mr. Elk, come with me, show me what I'm missing. Let's go get this elk killed. Maybe it's my calling, maybe it's whatever, but let's, let's get this done. So he hunted with me for, uh, 2 days. We got into there, couldn't turn that bull up again. So disappears with, with 3 dozen cows, can't find them. On the 28th, I go back in by myself. And hunted all that morning. Not a sound. Started off just, just a little cow calling as I moved across, got into some bigger country, maybe 2 bugles all morning and never, never got a response. I'm on my way back out, probably about 10:00 again, come to the last finger that I could actually call down into before I headed a couple of miles out to the truck. I bugle. That herd bull screams back at me. I ran at him, cut off about 300 yards, probably as fast as I possibly could. Bugle at him again, cuts me off. I think I probably moved like 50 to 60 yards. I was thinking I probably didn't need much at that point. It was pretty close. So I remember I picked up this dead burnt tree in this burn area and raked it on another tree, just kind of the whole tree real fast. And then I moved up another about 10 to 15 yards to get into my final shooting position. I, I kept this open stuff on my left hoping he was going to come up the tree line. And I mean, it wasn't 20 seconds, all of a sudden I had antler tips coming up. And he did. He hit that opening and he decided to come up the tree line, but he didn't come into the final spot I was hoping. He kind of just took a little, little bit of a U around but walked right into where I was. And I didn't have a clear shot until he got to about 4 yards. And so, and shooting up at him into the, the frontal right there. But it was a, it was a slam dunk and, and, and a quick, clean kill. So 28 days of grinding, dang, a lot of failure, a lot of running.

4 yards, dude, that's crazy. Like, yeah, finally worked out.

Oh man, I wouldn't have traded it for anything. I'm so glad I didn't kill him on day 4 or anywhere in between.

What do you think was the What was the reason for success? Or, and the question behind the question is like, what was the reason for not? Like, how did you know? Not like, I hate to say it this way, but like, how come it took so long? And like, what do you think you did wrong? And then what, or is it just like, you know, not necessarily what you did right, but like, walk me through like, what's your thought on like, man, here's what went wrong, here's what went right. Yeah. Yeah.

I, you know, there's a lot that goes into that, you know, cause I've thought about that myself and sometimes I almost even hesitate. I mean, I'm a guy that puts out a lot of elk content and a lot of elk videos because I just, I just love it. I love to talk about it and I love to analyze it. And so there could definitely be guys out there that are like, oh wow, this elk expert took him 28 days, this bull couldn't get it figured out, you know. And so I've thought about that a lot. And man, it's just there is no always or never in elk hunting. You know, the only always that I know is I just got to keep coming back, trying to figure it out and try to figure out different things. You know, part of it for me was hunting open country. Um, at least where they were out feeding and whatnot was very open. And so to, to maneuver and get in close like we would a lot of times, that was, that was a real challenge early on. And so if the best bet for them would have been staying out into more of that open country, so I didn't capitalize until they actually got up into the timber and got into those fingers and I had some cover and I could actually you know, call appropriately. I think also just, we live in a very pressured area. You know, those elk have been hunted a lot. They've heard a lot. They're not interested a lot of times early on. I couldn't really hunt a transition area like I like to do early on. A lot of times early season, I try not to do a lot of bugling. I try to find really good feeding areas. Figure out where they're bedding, and I'll hunt those transition areas. I'll get in between and use soft cow calling, or sometimes no cow calling at all, and just wait for them to transition from that feed to bed. Um, couldn't do that in this scenario. This is the first time I've ever hunted just one bull for an entire month, pretty much. So that presented a lot of challenges. Again, every time I ran into him, just about, he accumulated more and more eyeballs, noses, and ears to help him out. So that dynamic was super challenging. Yeah, there's just a lot that went into that. You know what I mean?

I said it's elk hunting. Like, it's—

it was something that I reflect on a lot, and it comes up so often when I talk to folks about elk hunting is you'll hear people talk about peak rut, like I mean, you, you hear it every year. The, uh, the ruts— the rut's early this year, the rut's late this year, or the weather's going to change the rut, or the moon's going to change the rut, or they were going crazy today, I think the rut must be early. But the biologists that I talked to say that all the elk, most of the, most of the cows are bred, you know, like the 27th and 28th, like 90-some percent of the cows they feel like are at the very end of the month. So for me that's what I call peak rut. That is when that bull is doing his breeding and when he is most fired up. Are they fighting and determining hierarchy and rounding up cows and all of that the rest of the month? Absolutely. But when is he the most vulnerable? I think it's when he's actually doing the breeding. And for me, that's kind of, you know, it played out last year to be true because I tried a lot of different setups, a lot of different scenarios with him, had a lot of conversations with him, especially the second half of the month where I was in close enough where it should have worked. I should have been able to kill him, but as a herd bull, he just didn't have a reason to leave, um, until the very end. And then I think once he actually started breeding and knew that he had 30-some cows there to breed and was having the time of his life, that was the time where I was finally able to get him in there, threaten him, and, and it just worked like magic, you know. So just in that situation, that's, that's how that particular bull with his personality, his experience, all those cows. That's just how that one happened to play out.

So in those 28 days, how did his behavior change? I mean, obviously just the, the dynamic changes, right, from 4 cows to 30 cows, you know, it's gonna be different. But like, it's fun to watch bulls over the— over an entire season, which not a lot of people get to actually do. Like, how do you feel like his personality changed? Do you feel like he got more in the rut? Was there like days he was quiet? Was there, you know, like, did you start to notice patterns? Did you like, did you ever— there's a lot of questions wrapped into this, but like, did you, you know, in my mind it's like you said the transitions wouldn't have worked. It was like, man, it's open country bull, seems like you could pattern this bull and just figure him out. Did that work or not work?

Yeah, unfortunately for me it didn't, because I mean, I would have loved for that to happen, and I kept showing up thinking that there was going to be one of those transitions, or thinking that because this happened the day before, that I was going to go in there and magically make that re-happen on, on the next day. And it just didn't work that way. This particular spot had a drainage— small drainage, but still a fair bit of timber, a little bit of water in the bottom, not, not super deep, not super big country, um, and then some flat stuff where they would feed quite a bit. Could go up into timber, you know, maybe a mile above. Another little finger, another flat spot, another little finger, flat spot, and then kind of a big, real big canyon area. And I mean, every time that I went in there, they were in a different spot. Sometimes they'd be in the bottom of a finger feeding up, you know. Sometimes they were out on a big flat heading up into one of the timbered areas over here on this side. We're only talking about something that's you know, the actual huntable area that I hunted was probably a mile and a half across, I suppose, which isn't real big when you could see across it, really. And so every single time it was just a different spot. You know, the very first encounter that I had with when I actually, you know, when I blew it, when I was sitting there with my brain turned off, when those bulls came in, he was just with those other bachelor bulls. And they were coming into those cow calls. And if I'd have been ready, you know, that would have worked, um, possibly, you know. Um, that always— I tell that story sometimes, that part of the story, because of the thermals. Because, you know, a lot of folks think, you know, well, thermals are going to be rising in the morning, falling in the evening, or however they try to minimize that. And for me, like, that whole face, that whole slope was in the heat, in 80-some degrees, and you would think that the whole thing was going up, but that one finger I was in was cool enough where the scent was going down, you know, and it blew right to him anyway. Um, so a good thermal lesson there as well. But so in that situation though, he was ready to come in curious about cows, or maybe he was just starting to think about rounding up those cows, or maybe he was following those bulls. I mean, that could have worked. But you know, he went from that to then he was definitely interested in the cows, you know, like he, he picked up, you know, the small group that he had. And then that next encounter, I actually got a little bit of video, you know, all of a sudden he comes running over the hill and he's chasing a group of cows down in towards the bedding. And now he's bugling all of a sudden, you know, and it's the first 10 days of, of September, you know. Why, why the switch? Why was he— and why was he all of a sudden screaming at but he wasn't willing that day to engage me at all, either cow calling or screaming at him at close range. Um, yeah, so it was just really hard for me to pinpoint him there and to try to pattern that, that guy. And, and that's true of a lot of the stuff that we hunt here in southeast Wyoming on the public land. The, the, the general areas, uh, really hard to pattern elk, I feel like, you know, especially when they're, when they're in that roundup mode and they're just, they're chasing cows all all over the place.

But yeah, I would love to dive in. There's two paths I want to go. I want to— I'll probably come back and start talking about calling because it seems like you call a lot. I don't meet a lot of Wyoming guys who call, so I'd love to tackle that. But first, you, you had mentioned like transition areas, uh, and that was kind of your go-to. I'm assuming that's early season, or, or you could talk about that a little bit, just like when is that your go-to. And then it sounds like you hunt thicker areas, so is that a more a thick timber replay, or is that, uh, not? Yeah, maybe like walk me through kind of your system and how, you know, hitting transition areas falls into that system.

Yep, yep. And this is just, you know, when we're at home, you know, I just, I didn't draw any good tags last year, and so I'm just hunting public land over the counter here in Wyoming is what that area is. And so I'm just kind of stuck with what I, what I have. And so it ends up being a little bit thicker Um, unless you do want to hunt— unless you do want to hunt some of the burn stuff. But a lot of the country up here is just heavily roded. There's access everywhere. I mean, if you turn on, um, the layer in OnX that, that allows you to try to find more secluded country, good luck up here. I mean, there's like 2 in the whole mountain range where we can, where we can actually get, you know, maybe a mile by a mile away from a dedicated trail or road. So, so that presents a real challenge. And so when there's burns and there's a lot of open country, I feel like those elk get pushed out of there a lot of times right away. So traditional transition stuff that we would have run over there doesn't necessarily work when it's real open like that and they're not super patternable from day to day. And so the transition areas that I find that have worked well for me are thicker areas. There are areas where you could probably pick out fairly well on, on X ahead of time when you're doing your scouting, that there's a high potential that it looks like a good elk feeding area. Maybe there's good water nearby, just looks lush and green, um, probably not necessarily wide open, but it might also have a little bit of security element to it. So you feel good about the, the probability that elk could feed in that area. And then if we figure that out we look at, okay, where's the nearest likely bedding area? Maybe on a, on a north slope. Let's say it was cut and dry and we're going with like the typical advice that elk are going to bed on a north slope and they're going to feed somewhere on the south or, or, or somewhere else and transition through that south slope towards the, the north side there. And so like my favorite spot actually has a whole bunch of feed down in the bottom It's kind of broken up. They feel safe there feeding a lot of times even into late morning. The transition zone is probably about a half mile long total and probably maybe, maybe a quarter mile from the edge of the, the meadowy area to the top of the ridge where they would probably break over to the, the bedding stuff. And so they could come up from that feed anywhere along that half mile corridor, half mile by quarter mile corridor. But I also know that there's a saddle up behind me at the very end of that transition zone where a lot of elk, you know, maybe 50%, 60% of the elk that come up from the meadow, they want to transition at the easiest point possible. So they're going to go through the saddle. And so I try to increase my odds by getting at the end there, knowing that, all right, well, if I'm at the end, towards the end of this transition area, below that saddle, a lot of those elk are going to come up that way and they're going to go over the top. So I've already put myself in position where, where they're headed. That particular spot, I also know that it, it ends up getting extremely rough and rocky and almost cliffed out, maybe like less than 100 yards from where I typically set up. So even though my thermals are going down there in the morning. It stays very cool and shaded for a long time. I've got the wind in my face there. It's blowing towards that open stuff. I know the likelihood of an elk circling below me is, is unlikely. And I know that they want to go up towards that saddle. So all of those elements combined there for me to be able to get at the end, to play it quiet, maybe soft cow calls typically, especially early, you know, first 5, 6 days of September. I just love to get in there early before first light and, and see what's going to move up through the trails and, and to quietly, softly cow call, nothing too aggressive. As the month goes on, we have killed elk there, you know, in the, in the teens and, and 20s of, of September, you know, September 21st, 22nd. I know we killed some bulls in there, um, and we've used bugling at that time, but we're still relying on those same transition principles up through that area, you know. I don't know if that answers, um, everything that you wanted to get out there, but that's an example of how I would play that out. And that would be true if I were going anywhere, you know. So we drew Idaho this year. We look at Idaho, we're going to show up a few days beforehand. But when we look at the, the maps, we're going to try to pick out some of those spots. Since we are going early, we're going to try to find likely feeding areas. Where are they going to likely bed? And we're going to try to set up in those transition areas so that we're not chasing elk necessarily. We're not necessarily trying to look for and chase sound, you know. What if they're not talking? In, in all those scenarios, if you can set yourself up in transition zone, you can have a high chance of success without necessarily relying on calling.

Uh, and I 100% agree. I think one of the things that jumps out that I would just add to all of that is that it's difficult. The one thing I would add is like, don't have plan B and C not completely different, but like on different or farther away transition zones. One of the things you'll learn, and, and I would love— you can correct me here, but it's like sometimes it's close, sometimes it's far away. Sometimes these elk are going farther than you think. Sometimes it's closer than you think. It really depends just the type of elk. So like Montana elk versus Idaho elk versus Oregon elk, like all these elk are going to do a little bit different things. So you got to, you know, be like, oh, this is a transition. Just because they aren't there doesn't mean they aren't there. So, you know, like if you don't see elk, elk, uh, you know, maybe they're just using a different spot. Sign will tell you a lot. Like, you'll know, like you said, if you check good feeding, if you can e-scout good feeding and check every saddle in every direction, generally speaking, you're going to see sign if there's elk there, roughly speaking. But the one thing I love about what you said is that so many of the elk hunters listening to this podcast are chasing bugles, and when they don't bugle, they don't know what to do. This— write this down— this is a thing you can do if they aren't talking. And the thing I like about this is it's kind of like blind calling. You know, it's like working into bedding areas and trying to just do set up, you know, blind calling. This is something you could do in the morning, but it's not one of those things where like, sure, if a bull pipes off before daylight, great, that gives you an indication, but it is not an end-all be-all that there isn't elk there. If you're seeing elk sign, there's elk there, trust me. And, you know, September 1st through September 12, 10 for sure. Like, trust me, there's lots of bulls that just don't care, won't say anything. You know, just because you bugle doesn't mean he has to bugle. Like, there could be elk there. And so, like, I imagine, you know, it's kind of like— I'll use just blind setups, right? Like, I love from the 1st to the 10th. I love the 5th to like the 12th, really. But, you know, heading into bedding areas, late morning and just doing some blind calling setups for 30+ minutes is like, that produces elk. I can tell you that most of those elk are going to— you'll never hear them. You will only see them. And so similarly, like what's happening in the dark when you're, you know, you're bugling and you're trying to like just cover ground and bugle in that early season is like the elk didn't even look up at you. Like he was still doing the thing. He may have been 100 yards from you. It doesn't mean he has to bugle. And so like, I love this is a Good strategy. And I don't— I think a lot of people miss this because it's like, it's so fun to hear bugles, but you tend to like go, oh yeah, nothing here, let's keep going. You know, like you're trying to chase a bugle. You don't have to chase a bugle, especially pre-15th. You can, you know, set up, you know, and man, sign. Trust the sign. Like if there's elk sign there, if it's within a week, like they're probably still there unless you see people. Probably still there. And like, that's, you know, one of those things I'm sure you probably have these stories where Like you have a spot or a setup that you've used in the past before. You have a lot of faith and trust that they're going to do it right. So you can go there and be like, oh, this has worked before. We're going to do it. And it's worked going back to getting punched in the mouth for you. It's worked when you didn't hear anything. I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm guessing like it's worked when you didn't hear anything. And so like you have the faith to keep trusting it for multiple days in a row. Joe Blow from Ohio. Goes out and he's like, there's elk sign, but I didn't hear an elk. Time to try something new. And it's like off to the next thing. And so many times it's like, man, just keep soft cow calling. And just because you soft cow call doesn't mean he's going to come today. But, you know, maybe day 3 you do some soft cow calling. He's like, I'll go check it out today.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I couldn't agree more. A couple of things you said, you know, We, we often say that, um, we'll come to a spot that fits the right criteria. You know, maybe it's, uh, it's got great security first and foremost, low access. We had to work our tail off to get there. It's got good feed nearby. We're assuming that maybe they're not having to travel real far from feed to bed, you know. And so it's got a lot of the things that, that they want. We'll often say if you hang out in this spot for 5 days, you're going to kill an elk. Yeah. And but how many people want to do that? It's boring. It's not, it's not, it's not the moving and calling and all that excitement that we all love. Yes, I would, I wish all of September was, was like that, right? But I like to kill elk more than I care about how I kill them in terms of the tactic. And so absolutely, you know, the calling is only a tool for I love it, but it's just a tool. Transitions, they're just a tool. Spot and stock, they're just a tool. I don't care which one ends up working, right, you know, but I want to apply the right tool for the right situation.

Oh, 100%. Kind of on that note, you know, we talk— that's a, that's a great early morning transition thing. It can be an evening thing too, um, as well. That can be a little bit difficult, more difficult. But, uh, as far as like Evening, morning, do you have a preference on tactic, you know, switching your tactic between evening, morning, midday, and all of those things?

I'm a morning guy, to be honest. If I had to pick one, I would, I would pick morning. Um, I love the fact that they've been out feeding, um, and that they're moving to bed. Maybe it's just because I've had the most experience at that time, I guess. I I don't know. I mean, I'm out daylight to dark, you're regardless, you know, it doesn't matter. Love the hunt, you know, gonna employ a different tactic like you said depending, um, can transitions work in the evening? Yeah, a little bit less predictable, I feel like a little bit more challenging when the wind switching, you know, can be a little bit more tricky, I feel like sometimes in the evening. But, um, anyway, yeah, I would say that I'm, that I'm a morning guy, um, even from the, even if you extend it beyond those first couple of hours. Uh, you know, early on I didn't understand, you know, like we could listen to a bull bugle all night, get out in the morning, get in the right spot, get close to them, feel like this is going to work, you know, downside of the thermals, the wind is right. But being on the downside of the thermals meant that we were low at that particular point or first thing. And we're talking like first thing in the morning, right? They're still coming down. So we're below the elk and not understanding that. Okay. Yep. Got in close enough, but he's with cows. And then 2 minutes later, it sounds like he's 50 yards away. Okay. Close the distance. Get in on him again. 2 minutes later, he's 50 yards away. He's talking to us the whole time, but he's following those cows up to bed. You know, we're on the wrong side. We're not in a position to intercept where they're going. And I'm never going to pull him off those cows once they decide to go up in bed. And so for me, it was either can I get the wind correct and get in between where they're going, or can I figure out where they're going? And once they get there, like, I can remember this one particular scenario that's playing over and over again in my head. We chased this bull for like 3 hours up the mountain as he's following these cows, and they finally go bed. And then he was ready to play. Then he wanted to come get aggressive once, once he was already there with them, you know. And so just all these things that you learn over the years. But anyway, all, all of that knowledge, I feel like I'm more knowledgeable about the first half of the day than the second half of the day, I guess. Or that I have more options maybe the first half of the day. Once the second half of the day hits, especially that evening time, I just always feel this anxiety like I'm fighting dark, you know, like I'm running out of time every second because I am. And so that, that complicates things.

It's funny because, um, and it depends on the time of year, but I would almost go not the opposite, but like the one thing about the morning is, and I think the bigger factor to me is temperature. So when you have these hot days, to me, I feel that anxiety of like, oh, they're going to shut up any second. I got to keep up. I got to keep up just to, you know, figure out where they're going or they're going to, you know, stop talking. And so you have that anxiety where it's like you feel like you have 2 seconds. To like, or 2 minutes to figure out where they're going and what they're doing. If you can keep up, then you can maybe make a midday play. But like, it's always dangerous. Call a spade a spade. And where it's like, depending on the temperature, depending on the day of the month, like that evening, I feel like if I can be close and catch that, you know, catch him while he gets up or like convince him to say something, well, I still got 2 hours. To me it's like I know the time clock. It's like I have— I don't have anxiety because it's the other way where it's like, okay, I got you and I got 2 hours to get it done, you know, like, versus the morning, I feel like you're like, he's gonna shut up and just walk away any second.

Yeah, that's why I love these conversations though, you know, because, you know, you bring in 100 guys and you're, you're just gonna have a spectrum of different experiences, you know, so all I know is what I know, you know, and, and, and same for you, you know. And, uh, anyway, I guess I've just killed, I've killed the majority of my bulls in the morning, and so that probably, it probably gives me a bias, you know, towards that. It doesn't happen to necessarily be better, that's just how it worked out for me, you know.

Is that mostly like daylight or is that mid-morning?

What's that?

Is that daylight or mid-morning?

Um, I think I would say, I would say before mid-morning. I would say early, earlier.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like later in the season the mornings get better, you know, like bulls are pretty talkative until 10:00 AM, you know, like, yeah, I, I would definitely agree with that statement. Like the, I wanna think about it like later. I, I think mornings I, I've pretty equal. I think I ran the numbers one time and like it's pretty split down the middle. Me, for me at least, uh, you know, morning versus evening. Jaden Bales. Um, but later in the season, I think you— I bet you would skew more morning for me, and I bet early in this season it might be more evening. The— where I do really well with like blind call setups is— man, I don't do this time anymore, but like if I can know where he is in the morning, then in the evening I can almost be close enough that like I can blind call or set up, you know, have a good intercepting the transition. Similarly, you're just calling them to the transition, but like those type of situations, you know, you have a lot of control over. So for me, like that tends to, I feel like, you know, like find them in the morning, kill them in the day or the evening. And then yeah, I've not had a ton of luck with mornings. I would say later in the season when they're more active, you know, can keep them fired up. You know, they're not shutting up at half hour after daylight. Those times then I can. Get bulls killed in the morning. But yeah, it's funny.

Yeah, it is, it is, absolutely. And my, my son, he, he would probably say the opposite of me. Um, he would probably agree with you and say evenings as well. Um, I can't tell you how many times, you know, we'll go out and hunt the morning and then, uh, he'll say, are you gonna hunt the evening? And I'll say, no, I'm gonna go back to work. And he'll be like, all right, well, I'm gonna go kill an elk tonight, you know. And I can't I can't tell you how many times that he gets into elk in the evening. I'm like, oh, should have been out there.

Which is— well, there's your problem. It's hard to catch a fish when you're pulling in the water. You got to be out there.

Very true.

So what do you think most people do wrong?

Yeah, that's a, that's a good one. Um, in terms of when they're out there or in their preparation?

How so in the preparation?

Uh, you know, in, in the preparation, I think that it can go wrong a lot of places, right? Whether that's, whether that's the physical and mental side, um, whether it's the, uh, whether it's the e-scouting and understanding how to truly break down an area and, and figure out your plan. And because a lot of folks, you know, when it, when it's on the preparation side and they're e-scouting, a lot of folks can open up on X and drop a lot of pins into elk areas, or maybe that's good feed, or maybe that's good bed area, but they'd never develop a plan out of it. You know, they don't go to the extent of, okay, what, what is the wind going to do in this area? How am I going to access that? How is it huntable? Is it a better spot to hunt in the morning, or is it a better to hunt in the evening. Um, those, those types of situations don't play out through their entire plan because I think the extent of planning, like you kind of referred to earlier, for a lot of guys is just to grab that bugle and, and to move, you know, and bugle and move and bugle and move. And maybe they found elk sign in there, or maybe they know that there's elk somewhere on that mountain, and that's the extent of the plan. And I think that that's, that's poor preparation. And it's probably going to get worse the more pressured elk become, the more, um, in, in a lot of different ways, whether that's, whether that's, you know, wolves and people and just the whole, the whole gamut. And depending on where you're hunting, and like you said, everywhere you hunt, those elk are going to act a little bit differently. But if you're not breaking that area down to where you actually have Plan A, B, C, D, E to roll through, and it's not just so random, I think that That's a big mistake, uh, for sure. Um, not understanding elk behavior though, I think would probably be my final answer to that question, because a lot of folks have general knowledge of elk, but they don't really understand how they're going to respond to, to different times of September. They just lump September all in together, you know, like, this this is, this is just what elk do. Or, uh, you know, even breaking down the day throughout the day, what, what the elk are going to do and how that translates into the type of way that we should plan for that, you know. And so I think lack of elk behavior a lot of times, um, probably is the root cause of failure.

It's root cause of my failure. So, like, a herding cat sometimes, which is like, it's totally understandable in a lot of ways. I think you're right. I think I think the best elk hunters I know understand elk behavior. They know what they're going to do before they do it. They know, they know, you know, I think part of this, the, this conversation started with when you get punched in the mouth, knowing what to do. I think having exceptional elk behavior skills will help that immensely because so much of getting punched in the mouth is the elk doing something to you, like disappearing or bumping, or like it's just gonna drive nuts or you can't find them, right? When you— and we'll play the confidence card here— when you have a confidence in being able to find elk, it also has the ability to kind of curb that, uh, doldrums, right? It's like curb the, like, give— want to give up. Like, for me, I'm really good at finding elk, and I, you know, humbly, I know that. So therefore I don't get as, like, I quit. You know, there's going to be less I quit when you're like, oh, I can find elk. And I remember the days distinctly when it was like, I can't buy a bugle, I can't find a bugle. But like, once you make that one tool in the tool chest, you now have other tools to resort to. And I think a lot of hunters, back to the preparation, the mental toughness, all these things, when all you're looking for is a bugle, sometimes you can't find that. And you have to have other ways to finding elk. And so the more you can kind of like build your tool chest of being of ways to find elk, then you, you know, you kind of you build that into your system and like all of a sudden it's like you're like, all right, well, not here. Guess we'll try there, you know? And it's like, you know, I love the, the line about, you know, building the light bulb and it's just like, I just found 1,000 ways not to do it. Sometimes it's— that's finding elk. I found 99 places they weren't. And so now on the 100th one, I found them. And kind of goes to your, like, you know, your 28-day little stint, right? Like you had to just figure it out. Found 99 ways to not kill him. You only needed one. And I do think that like, that's a big piece of it is like having the confidence, having the skill set to be able to understand elk behavior in a way that you can kind of break the mountain down, figure it out where they are, and then, you know, You know what, you're going to bump them and you got to find them again. And, you know, like understanding elk behavior. A lot of this game is that though, like trying to figure out where they're going to go, what they're going to do. And, you know, all those pieces like how many times do you have to refind the same bull in that 28 days? And like that takes a knowledge of elk behavior that I don't know, kind of takes a lot of just years in the woods.

It does. Absolutely. It does. Yeah. I say all the time that The failure is 100% been my best teacher. I wish it wasn't. I wish I was the smart enough kid to be able to figure it all out and say, well, I just figured it all out. No, I just failed over and over and over again. I tell people, you know, the— I grew up hunting, you know, in the deep backcountry with horses with my old man, rifle hunting. And, and the extent of it was, is we would get way back in with the horses. He found a particular place where there was a chute, and those elk passed through every morning, and then they would come back through every evening. And he killed, I don't know, 23 bulls, I think, 23 years in a row in that same chute. That was, that was elk hunting that I grew up with. And so then when I started hunting by myself, I actually started hunting with traditional archery equipment. And that was like the complete opposite end of the spectrum, you know. And it's just taken years and years and years to try to, to try to piece it all together because those are, those are two very different games, right? Yeah.

What made you, what made you want to start with a trad bow? And like, that seems like a big endeavor coming from where you came from, which is like, I grew up with a dad who rifle hunted and he used to make fun of us for for wanting to chase elk with a bow. But like a trad bow, I think I would, yeah, I don't think that would've went over well.

Yeah, yeah. I had a wrestling coach who made bows, made his own bows. And he was just somebody that I always looked up to. I mean, even as he got older, he was just always fit. He was great at martial arts. He was just somebody that I looked up to in so many different ways. And then he made bows on top of that. I was like, man, this guy's so cool. I just want a piece of that, you know, I want to be like that. And he was killing elk with his bow and mule deer with his bow. And, and I was like, man, I bet that feels good to master that. I mean, I just feel like somebody that can kill consistently with traditional equipment, man, they're, they're on a master level, you know. And anyway, that's, that's kind of what led me down that road. And then, you know, years later, I guess the whole point of telling you that to begin with. I kind of lost track of where I was. But, you know, years later, I end up— I'm hunting with compound bow because I got tired of elk being just outside my comfortable range with, with the trad bow and not being able to kill them. And, uh, and the killing was a lot of fun. And so, uh, I didn't want to go empty-handed anymore, empty freezer. And, and I can remember my first year that, that I was really serious here about bow hunting probably, uh, I think it was like 18 years ago or so. I tell people that I had 16 interactions with bulls in September that were inside 40 yards for sure. Like, they were, like, they were killable bulls. Now, like, I just shake my head at some of those scenarios that I blew it on. I blew it on 16 inside 40.

That's—

I mean, I probably had 2 to 3 times that many that were inside 100 yards that didn't know what I was doing and how to get them to not hang up, or just wasn't positioned, or I was starting my calling sequence too far away, or shouldn't have called at all, or they were bedded and I should have just walked up to them, you know. And there's just so many failures there even in one season. So I'll have a lot of guys from out of state talk to me about different tactics and strategies and whatnot, and I feel bad for these guys in a lot of ways because the cool thing for me is I fail today, I might fail 5 times today, and I get to go back out there and do it again tomorrow and the next day and the next day. Where a lot of these guys come out and they only get 5 days, 7 days, maybe the lucky ones get 10 days or something, you know. So the amount of failures that they get to pack in to that, that time frame aren't very many compared to what we get to do when we get to, you know, string a whole season together. And, you know, that, that learning curve is just probably been the, the best thing for me is just being able to go out there and fail over and over and over again.

Yeah, I, I say the exact same thing. Like, you need the days, you need the at-bats, you need to, you know, just— it takes a lot of days. And almost every great elk hunter I know, for what it's worth, if you want to be a better elk hunter, just figure out a way to hunt more days. And there's nothing that's gonna— between that and fuel, like there's nothing that's going to be more— like, that's the two things you need to do. With that said, you know, I know that's, that's harder than most people can do. Like, it's just not feasible for a lot of people. So we were— some of us were fortunate enough to be, you know, just close to it, or, you know, able to do that. But I think if you could— you want to be a great elk hunter, go spend more days. But I guess my point of that was like, almost every great elk hunter I know, like truly great, will tell you, I'm not that good, I just put a lot of days That's the signal right there. Pay attention to that signal because every, every dude I know who's like a legend has killed a lot of elk will tell me, oh, I'm not that great. I just, you know, spend a lot of days at it. And it's like, well, that's what it takes. I mean, you can shortcut, you can be in the best fitness of your life. You could— Lance Armstrong couldn't kill an elk faster than me. I promise you that. No offense, Lance, if you're listening. I don't think you are. But like, you know, it's like it's a I don't even know if he's that fit anymore. But, uh, you know, it's like the fitness is one aspect of it. You have to be able to like still have the days. And again, you can be in the best shape of your life, if you don't have the days, it's gonna be tough. Because even great elk hunters, it takes 28 days to kill, you know, that bull right now. You know, if you lower your standards and you say like, I'm just gonna shoot any bull, like that, that changes some things. I think this is where a lot of people get tripped up, is they still want to be be, you know, 300-inch bull killers, but they only got one week time frame, and those things are, uh, very difficult to do. Like, it just takes time with big bulls, um, you know, like they're hard to find. Just finding big bulls, it takes days.

Yep. You know, I've got a lot of small bulls, um, you know, I've got, I've got 29 at this point, and, and, you know, a lot of them are raghorns, you know, because, man, growing up, like elk was an elk, man. I mean, cow elk, I can remember being stoked, you know, shooting, shooting cow elk. And I'm still stoked, you know, like I killed multiple elk last year and some of them were cows. And man, to be able to just know that feeling of putting that meat in the freezer and that we're at a point where we give a lot of elk away and just knowing how that's going to impact people and how grateful they are. I mean, just, just killing elk is amazing. You know, but you come to a point where sometimes you want something a little bit better, you know, want— do you want that extra challenge? Or maybe you just, like I said, I mean, I, I like to suffer, I guess. You know, like I passed on— I passed on a small bull on— I forget, I think it was the 4th or 5th last year. And on day 25, I was thinking, you know, there was a time in my life I would have been a happy camper and I would have been at home bragging about I got an elk in the freezer. Already, you know, and here I am empty-handed and it might not work out. But anyway, my, my kid, um, Saxton, is just amazing. He's killed 8 bulls in 9 seasons, and the, the other season that he didn't kill a bull, he did kill a cow. But, um, and has killed some just tanks at this point. And he's had the ability since he was younger— the first elk he killed I had him in a tree stand when he was 12 and he shot a spike that came in. And after that spike, you know, I was stoked for him. He's 12, proud dad, got an elk, man. I mean, this is just— this is so cool. And I think that he had a chip on his shoulder actually after that is what it created. And he was like, I'm just not going to shoot. I'm not going to shoot small bulls anymore. And so he's got a bunch of— he's got a bunch of great bulls already, you know, and he's only 23. And, and he tells me all the time, he's like, you know, you can't shoot the big ones, shoot small ones, Dad.

Yeah, but I don't know, man.

It just depends. It just depends on the situation too and what makes you happy. I don't care what size they are. But he went to Colorado last year and, uh, he was there 5 minutes, called a, called a pinchy 6 in on a string to 15 yards. Bull didn't want to leave. Could have shot him 20 different ways, passed him up. Goes up the mountain, ends up shooting a tank. Just a really cool bull, um, spotting stalks, belly crawled in on him. And, and yeah, really cool. And, and the bummer for me, as I'm thinking about this, like, I've got anxiety because as he's telling me this story, like, that Pinchy Six was a goner, man. Like, that bull is— he's on his way home.

Yeah, yeah, you can't kill the big ones, you shoot the little ones. You can't, you can't hunt all season if you shoot one on the first day. I mean, that's it.

Yeah, that's true too.

Well, Matt, uh, thank you so much for coming on and give us some lessons. If people want to check out your content, you have a podcast, you— what all, what all you have going on?

Yeah, I'd love it if, uh, if they checked out Backbone Unlimited on YouTube or on, or on Spotify. Yeah, the podcast channel and then backboneunlimited.com, Backbone Unlimited on, uh, on the socials, on Instagram and whatnot. I'd love to connect with folks. That's what it's about for me. Um, yeah, Backbone Unlimited is a lot for me. That's why I put the unlimited in the name. Uh, you know, I love talking about the hunting, but I also lost my oldest son to suicide several years ago. And so a lot of this for me is just being able to to, you know, make connections with guys, build connections, um, where, you know, a lot of guys don't want to ask for help or talk about their weaknesses and whatnot. And so this has been a platform for me to be able just to talk to guys. It might start with hunting, but a lot of times it just leads to life. And, uh, and I just love being able to, to help people.

Wow. Um, yeah, thank you. That's amazing. And yeah, we'll put links in the show notes for everything, but Thank you for coming on. We might have to get Saxon on too and see if he can one-up his dad and, and talk some stories and whatnot. But yeah, hey, thank you so much for jumping on.

Perfect. Thanks, Cody. I really appreciate it.

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