Glassing as a Skill: What Most Elk Hunters Get Dead Wrong

This is the Elk Hunt Podcast, home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody Rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics, and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Tricer. They make gear that's fast, light, and simple, from amazing tripods to bino mounts, panheads, truck mounts, and now even bipods. Tricer makes gear that's fast, light, and simple. I love their gear, and if you're looking for a new system for better glassing, check out Tricer. Head over to the website tricer.com. They make great products, and it's just a great company. Awesome dudes. Been using the heck out of the bipod. Uh, killed a lot of critters with it. Head over to the website, use the code TRO, and you'll save yourself 10% at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Stone Glacier. And tell you what, I've packed out a lot of animals with my Stone Glacier pack this year. The SkyArcher 6400 has been with me to Alaska, British Columbia, Wyoming, Montana, and I love the thing. It's, it's, you know, whether it's a 10-day backpack hunt or your day hunting from the side-by-side. That's what I love about the Stone Glacier. It's minimalist, it's lightweight. You can use it day hunting or you can use it for an alpine backpack hunt. Uh, great product. And Stone Glacier makes an entire suite of hardcore mountain hunting gear. So if you're in the market, head over to stoneglacier.com, use the code TRO. You'll save yourself a little bit of a discount and get yourself some great gear.

How you doing?

Good, about yourself?

You know, Cody, I was trying to remember. I think you and I spoke a while back about the— interestingly enough, about a tripod. Do I remember that right? I was trying to remember. I thought we did a podcast.

I was like, yeah, it was a number of years ago, and I don't remember what the context was, but I was thinking, I was like, I don't remember if we did a podcast or if we just chatted on the phone. I thought maybe we just chatted.

I think we chatted on the phone. Okay, yeah, I mean, I, I don't— I, I can't— I think we were— I mean, were we maybe trying to get you hooked up with a tripod at the time from the other side of things?

Or—

because I remember, like, I even went back and looked at old texts, and there was like a couple texts in there where we talked about a Tracer AD, and I don't know, something about it was on the way, or I, you know, I don't know if something— did you ever have something go wrong with one or something? Not, huh?

I mean, I never got— I never would have got it. Don't think I would have got a tripod because I knew Drew far before he ever was with GoHunt.

Yeah, yeah, I, I'm— yeah, I'm just— I'm not sure why. What weird— I don't know, it was a while ago though.

Look at it.

I think my last text with you was like seriously like back in 2023.

Okay, so I guess it was terribly long ago.

Yeah, it wasn't that long ago. So, but nice to, uh, you know, put a name and a face and everything together. Like, I know who you are, I just, you know, it's not like we've, you know, interacted a lot, that's all.

No, no, no. Yeah, 100%. And, uh, welcome to the Tricer crew.

Are you, uh, yeah, it's, uh, I didn't switch it up a little bit. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, Drew and I have worked so much together, uh, you know, I mean, just little, I guess I could say, you know, I mean, I've been consulting with them for a while, but not like on an official basis, you know, just he'd call me up and ask me things. And, you know, I mean, you know, we can certainly break it down in the podcast too. But he, you know, I just was real brutally honest with him about a lot of stuff real early. And I thought that there was some value there and some growth there that he was kind of missing. He calls it— well, I think if I remember right, like, I basically told him like, hey, man, you need to get out of this niche, you know, this— you need to get into the big boy stuff, and I think you can really do something. And that's when we talked about the upside-down legs and the— you know, I mean, it all kind of came together. And he— that's what I love about Drew, like, when he gets his mind on something, he's gonna do it.

Yeah, for sure.

And, uh, so like, I mean, you know, there's so many projects that I have given, like, I laugh because like even the new changes to the 80 and the BCs, like I was after him for like a year, like, bro, you've got to get the center post solid. You got, you know, that you're, you're, uh, when you close them down, the circumference is too big. People are complaining and they're comparing it to other models. And, you know, I mean, I'm not going to take responsibility for the, for the, uh, the engineering that happened and the stuff that came out of it. You know, like the Exact, but you know, when you, when you shorten the trundle down and you lengthen the, the, the, the trundle, you know, the center post travels in and you use a flip lock and you get more surface space to tighten things up. I'm like, oh, guys speaking my language. This is exactly what I wanted. So yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool stuff.

So yeah, Let's jump into it. I, uh, I'm excited. I want to talk, uh, kind of just glassing as a skill. And I was going to put this on the Elk Hunt podcast, which, you know, we can kind of cater it towards elk hunting, which I mean, glassing fairly universal. But if we could, I don't know, talk a little bit from the elk hunting perspective.

Yeah, I'm happy to either way. It's, you know, I only spent, God, 12 or 13 years helping Jay Scott on in his camps for you know, and Steve Chappell and those guys for all those years. So I, I hope I can help or lend a hand with that.

No, I'm excited. I'm excited about it. I think I got some good stuff.

So yeah, cool. Well, ask away. And I mean, I'm an open book. And, and, um, you know, I think, I think— did Drew talk to you at all? Like, he just wanted me to like, you know, like, hey, you know what, and look, I'm still— just so you know, I'm still helping GoHunt for at least a 90-day period.

Okay.

And, um, so there's no bad blood. There's no, like, I— an opportunity came along that was so— it's just too good not to take it, you know what I mean?

Yeah, Drew called me before. Uh, he was like, hey, what do you think?

Good, good.

So I talked to you quite a bit. Um, but yeah, Drew, uh, he called me before. We chatted a little bit about you coming on. Uh, yeah, happy to do it. I think it'll be good.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, yeah, let's kick it off.

Where are you at?

Uh, in Bozeman.

Oh, so you're in— oh, okay, so you're in the, you're in the, in the wheelhouse over there.

That's like the place.

That's like—

yeah, sometimes it's called the Land of Oz.

Well, I mean, you've got so many companies there now that have, they've kind of landed there, and yeah, I'm sure it's a little interesting walking around town when you have like competitors.

Uh, you know what's funny is like Mountain Tough is kind of like, it's the melting pot too. So if like, if there was an industry gym, you know what I mean? Like Mountain Tough is the industry gym. And so like you get to— it's, it's not even Bozeman because like most of the stuff you don't see in Bozeman. And then if you go to Mountain Tough, you're like, you know, you're hanging out with dudes from every single company.

So I, you know, do you know Jonas and, and Steve and those guys, right? So Jonas, you know, I've known Jonas for years and And, uh, you know, that, like, Bozeman to me really kind of became a thing when, when, you know, all those guys started moving, you know. I mean, I was like, wow, this is— and then, you know, you start, oh well, so-and-so's there, and, and it just became this, like, thing. I was like, man, this is— and it's, you know, obviously been going on for a long time, but, um, you know, you can't— it— I didn't realize you were in Bozeman, but I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, it, it's certainly an interesting, uh— and I've never been there, and All right. Uh, well, yeah, I've never been to both. I mean, most of my hunting has been literally Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado. Um, pretty much, you know, that's kind of my wheelhouse. Um, not as much Colorado because I just haven't gotten up there in a long time. But I was, you know, I've been kind of married to the job, so to speak. So yeah, you know, always get to hunt as much as you want, so, and get drawn for stuff too. So, but yeah, but yeah, hammer away and let's let's get after it. We're good, bud. Um, do you try to like hit— do you have like a target like hour, or you just let it go, whatever it feels?

I usually try to do about an hour.

Uh, cool, cool, cool.

Yeah, roughly. If it goes, I mean, 45 to an hour, I would say.

Nice.

Alrighty. All right, Cody, welcome to the podcast. How we doing?

I'm doing great, man. I'm just happy to be here, and, uh, kind of I'm excited to put a name and a face and everything together. I know we've had a couple interactions with GoHunt in the past.

But, you know, I guess it's just, it's just two Codys on a call now. Cody and Cody.

Absolutely. It's a great name, I can tell you that, right? You know, it's kind of funny because I—

people are blessed to listen to two Codys, let me just tell you.

Well, I mean, yeah, don't get confused now. Um, the, uh, yeah, I mean, I grew up, you know, like my best friend for my whole life is— his name was Cody. And it's odd because in the set, you know, I'm 55, and in the '70s there really wasn't a lot of Codys. I mean, really. And then wound up going to the same school and I mean, it was like, yeah, it was a pretty rare name. It was, you know, growing up like that, it was pretty rare.

So I grew up, I was born in late '80s. So growing up in the '90s, I feel like there was a lot of Codys.

Oh, it was, it was, there was a huge— like, I can tell you that there's a lot of like my, my wife, is a teacher's aide. And, you know, she's been in like pre-K education for a long time. And the code, they're everywhere, bro. We don't have the franchise anymore, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So it's— but yeah, it's a good thing, you know, it's— that's— yeah.

So welcome to the show, dude. You're the Glassing expert. And I thought it'd be fun to do an entire episode onglassing, because I do think, you know, you've talked about this before, but it is— it's a skill set and you can prepare it. We talk a lot about, you know, say elk calling or whatever aspect, right? You know, people love to shoot their bows, but they don't really practice every other aspect of what it takes to be a great hunter and a great elk hunter and things like that. We've done a lot of podcasts on— or we've done podcasts in the past on looking far, looking often, looking like, you know, this concept of like, you know, find the elk today, hunt them tomorrow, which is very different than I think a lot of people tromping around the woods blowing their bugle tubes and looking for elk.

I always shorten that up to hunting for tomorrow.

Hunting for tomorrow, right?

Hunting for tomorrow. But it's, uh, you know, a lot of people don't, um, they don't quite grasp it. They don't understand it. They don't you know, they would be like, why are you even looking where you're looking? And it, it's about finding those pockets that aren't, you know, that maybe, you know, you're at a vantage point and you're just trying to find where those— in this case we're talking about elk, but I mean, the number of times that we found bulls that just weren't being pushed around by the, you know, the masses or what was going on, and you just find that pocket that you're watching them going to and from, and, and, and you can go in there on the next day and, and kind of figure out where— you kind of know where they're going to be. And, um, if you can't find them and you can't do that, it— I mean, it can't hunt. Well, I mean, you can hunt them, but I think it, it becomes a much harder task. And if that's what you're up to and into, that, that's cool. I got, you know, there's no nothing wrong with that.

But, you know, you know, the interesting thing too is like, I think, uh, you know, looking far, looking often, there's a couple aspects to that. Like you can cover more ground when you're looking 10 miles away, which is true. But I also think you can find more animals or figure— I wouldn't even boil it down to finding more animals. It's figuring out the macro with less movement, right? Like sometimes we want to stomp around in the woods and figure it out. Like, I get it. You just want to put boots on the ground. But like with e-scouting and glassing, you can kind of figure things out if you're patient and you use the tools, right?

Like, well, I, I think just the, the pure simple rule of I'm looking at something that I'm not disturbing, like you're letting them do their thing and do their natural patterns. And I don't— I think the value in that almost kind of supersedes everything. You know what I mean? I mean, to me, that— I, I can't tell you how many times that's been successful. And it's not always a 100%, but it, it makes a difference. Yeah, 100%.

So I'd love to dive into why do most hunters suck at glassing? And maybe the follow-up, which is like, what is good glassing? Like, what is, what is glassing as a skill?

I, I don't— like, I, I think the number one thing that that truthfully people— and I hate to use the word they suck at glassing— I just like to simply say I think they're in a hurry and I think they, they need to slow down. And most people, you know, they— whether you see them pull up on a quad or they, they break, you know, the horizon, they just, they look and then they're gone. And you're up high and you're looking at— you watch these people do this. And they get out of their vehicles, or they, you know, they crest over a ridge and they, they look for 2 seconds and then they disappear and they're going off to the next one. And you're like, do you not see the elk? I mean, they're right in the bot— I mean, they're right there, right? You know, whether they're bugling or not, I mean, that's a whole different thing. But I mean, the bottom line is, is I think people just get in too big a hurry. Um, I don't think that— certainly I think the terrain matters, but I don't think necessarily that elk are the most difficult thing on the planet to see. But I honestly believe that people get in too big of a hurry. I mean, I, I, you know, when I talk about glassing, I typically will tell you about, um, I don't know how to call it, the three pillars or whatever, but it's, I mean, literally buy good glass, and we can define good glass if you want to, and then, and then, you know, put it on a tripod and, and slow down and be methodical. I think that last piece of it is I know guys that glass that don't have the best glass in the world, but they find elk because they're, they're methodical and they slow down. So I think, I, I just think that people don't bridge that gap enough to where they really take that third piece of it and say, man, I just, I'm just gonna slow down and be really methodical about what I'm doing, right?

I think it's even more important with deer. You know the difference between like glass?

Absolutely.

An elk is like, man, I actually, I don't know. I go back and forth. It depends on where you are. Like, right. Like very much depends on where you are. I do think that though, there's a, I don't know, misnomer or this false point or this false assumption that just because elk are big wall tents standing on the side of the mountain, that I will see them in the first 14 seconds or I should keep covering ground.

Right.

I think, you know, for me it's tough because I do believe in covering ground. But darn golly, I've passed a lot of elk that I probably should have saw, or saw elk hours into a spot that I think—

Rich, to translate what you're saying though, have you ever, you know, I mean, obviously you've been within 50 yards of a bull, right?

Right.

Doesn't it amaze you sometimes just how— I mean, first of all, how fast they move, but how silent they move. And I mean, they just I, I sometimes I'm just like bewildered, like how does an animal like that do what it does? And you know, they're— I mean, you know, they're— whether it's cows or, or bulls or whatever, I just, I always think to myself, man, that is a— that's a 1,000-pound animal moving around just like slipping through the forest like nobody's business.

And so, I mean, how many times have I looked over and there's a 1,000-pound animal— call it 700-pound animal— staring at me like, where did you come from, sneaky little feller?

100%. That's exactly right. So I, I just, I, I think it's amazing to me that, that, uh, that they slip around and do what they do with, you know, what they're carrying. And, um, uh, I, I, I, and again, I always, you know, I live in Arizona, so I get everything from desert to, you know, mixed juniper and, you know, and, and, uh, and, and then up into the Ponderosa Pine. I get a little bit of everything. So, um, I mean, it can be tougher when you're dealing with more vegetation, and, um, and you just got to have the right tools to, you know, to do that.

You know, I'd love to get into— and I, I mean, I, I've hunted Arizona, one of the tougher places I've ever hunted, and man, you learn a lot about glassing in Arizona. I understand why people have teams of people now. And, you know, the angles, the, like, the pocketiness, the— there's never a good vantage, like I think when people think of glassing, at least with elk, it's like, oh, I, I e-scout, I find this knob and I glass from that, which is like, maybe there's some truth in that, but also like, man, finding the right rock, all these things, like to be able to look into these micro pockets. Glassing as a hunting style, uh, glassing is a skill in itself. The being able to search a mountain in a systematic order in which you are going to find animals, spend the appropriate amount of time, which is a great guessing that I would love to dive into, but like the appropriate amount of time in each basin, hillside, and not like every piece, you know, right? Um, and it's like, I've hunted places where I've sat and looked at this same hillside for 8 hours and then an elk stands up. You're like, hmm, didn't know you were there. Uh, and you know, so it's like, and sure, maybe, maybe the guy just runs around is seeing more area. I just, man, I always fall back to like these old-timers that used to sit on the same knob and, you know, an elk will walk by if you sit there long enough. And so like there's always balance, I guess, from a macro level. Let's start at a macro and we'll kind of work into the finer details of putting your optics and like being systematic on how you glass, like grids and things like that. But like from a big picture, what, what is like, how do you, how do you teach someone how to find the right glassing knobs? How do you teach someone locations? And then what's your thought on timing and all those things?

Or how like, how long does glass Well, I mean, you know, but scouting, you know, obviously, you know, helps. Um, I, I think one of the things that I always kind of like to tell people is, is like, I, I always talk a lot about the rut because that's, you know, probably my favorite time to hunt. But I, I think it's, you know, you got to use the timing of the year to figure out what you're going to be doing. And, and there are places that you can go glass right now, and you could say, well, you know, I saw elk, but those elk aren't going to be there when the rut starts to happen. Because I mean, if they're in full velvet and, and it's August, at least, you know, for us anyway, by about September 1st, those elk are stripped and they're, they're completely moved places, right? I mean, you know, there's actually kind of documented cases of of, of elk being killed and seen in one spot and being killed, you know, 20, you know, 15 miles away. That's not uncommon at all. So I think it's about like letting the time dictate. And I like to get to learn the roads, units, and, and know how to navigate and get to those high places because I think the most important time before, like, and I'm going to say a rut hunt is, is quite honestly, I think it's the 2 weeks, you know, kind of right before the hunt because it's the closest to, you know, figuring out if you know that there's water and feed in the area and, and you know that there's a high place, the general speak, you know, I mean, and you found cows, you're, you're, I mean, you're literally gonna find elk and the bulls will be there eventually. And so, um, I, I mean, yeah, are there high spots? You know, I, I always think of like, when I think of high spots, I think of Unit 10 all the time. And if you've ever been in Unit 10 in Arizona. Like, there's high spots all over the place, but there's prominent places that, that I could start naming that everybody like, oh, I've been there, I got it, you know. I mean, yeah, but you're gonna find elk in those places just because at that time of year, the elk, the bull, the cows are generally there, and the, the bulls kind of start piling in from all different places. And, um, You know, I, I think that, that at the, you know, you got to have the water, you've got to have the feed, and, and the cow's got to be there. So, um, you know, I think when you start looking for those places, um, I like big, you know, the, the bigger the vantage point, the, the more I like it, you know. Um, you know, can I get the sun at my back in the, in the morning?

And, and, uh, and, and, you know, can I, can I get it Like, if you were talking, say, the, you know, some of those late rifle Arizona, it could be anything, but like what, uh, I just thought of a story I should tell. Uh, late rifle, all of those where it's like, you know, man, some of those places in Arizona, it feels like you just can't glass that far because the farther you get, the more you can't see, right?

And that's true. And that's why, like, on a late hunt like that, without a doubt, I'm gonna try to get on canyon edges looking down into the north side bottoms. Right, but I'm looking for those places that are quiet, out of the way, because you've got to put yourself in a frame of mind. Those elk are not rutting anymore. They're looking to put on, you know, I mean, our winters aren't here, aren't bad, but they're still tired and worn out, and all they want to do is be left alone. So generally speaking, they're by themselves. And, uh, I'm already boring you? No, sorry, no, I'm just teasing. Um, No, but, but that's the thing is, is like on a, on a late hunt like that, to me it's all about getting high and looking down into the deepest, darkest pockets you can find. And, and a lot of times, sometimes that those aren't those big giant looks, you know, you're getting on camera or canyon edges and looking down into those north sides. And, and, um, generally speaking, the, the thicker, nastier, you know, places that you can find feed and water, that's where those bulls are going to be.

You know, it's funny, I feel like a lot of people try to like, they choose the place where you can see a lot. Most great hunters, it feels like, are looking at pockets you can't see a lot. You know, it's like, well, it's like the opposite. I will—

I have no problems giving this, paying homage to this person because it's the first time that I'd ever kind of thought about it in this way. But Randy Ulmer wrote an article a long time ago And I don't know if you know Randy, but Randy is— I don't know him personally, but yes, he's a friend and he's somebody that I look up to and that I have the greatest amount of respect for. Not always because of his success, but the guy just does things differently. And I'll never forget when I read that piece that he was like, hey, some of the biggest, you know, deer, elk, whatever. I have found looking directly into the sun. And I'm like, so you, like, you heard, like, generally speaking, I want the sun at my back. But he literally flipped me on that. I'm like, well, sometimes I guess it does just make sense. You got to do things a little different, right? But it's like you're saying, a lot of people will go to a place that they can see a giant area, and I don't know that that always reveals— I mean, it may Right. And if they, you know, have experience, it kind of depends on your— and on, you know, your, your familiarity with the place. But I would tell you that sometimes just because you're looking at a giant area doesn't mean you're going to reveal the secrets that it holds, right? And, and I think that comes with knowing the territory and the country and, and the, the habits of the elk at that, you know, quote-unquote time. I mean, I, I can remember, uh back in the day, Unit 10, there was a bull that we were looking for that was in what I would call a sea of junipers. You went from the place that we were looking, you could not see dirt. I mean, you were just— you were looking at literally treetops. And I don't know how many days I spent on top of that knob looking for that particular bull. And when we found that bull, you could hear the bull, but when I found the bull, I literally just saw the whale tail. That's it. That's how— that's— we identified him. It was like, yep, he's— I mean, he's right there. And it was just because you're going back and forth through that, you know, just looking for those things. And, and so it wasn't the— I mean, yes, you could see other places, but the, the elk were in that pocket. And they weren't going anywhere else.

So, well, interesting enough, uh, Randy Ulmer— I, uh, read some Randy Ulmer thing, and, you know, he ran 15s, whatever. So I did this, this was like 2021, and I ran 15s for a year, mainly because Randy Ulmer told me to. But you— I actually now have been back to 12s. What's your thought? 15s, 12, 10s, like, what's your favorite by now?

I think there's— I, I— to be Straight up, I think you have to take the tool and apply it to the job, right? So I mean, it's no different than a Phillips head or a flathead, right? So I think that where a guy knows where he's going to and where he's hunting, I think you have to let that particular— you know, so why would you say one versus the other? 12s are typically lighter weight, wider field of view. Maybe not necessarily brighter, but, you know, probably pretty equal in terms of their exit pupil. Easier to carry on your chest. Maybe a guy wants to pare down and not carry more than 1 or 2 or 3 pair of optics. And I say 3 pair, you know, or 3 optics, and people think you're out of your mind. Well, I just think that's tradecraft. So when, when you help people glass as much as I have over the years, and you're trying to help somebody kill a bull, and, you know, we're respectable bull, sometimes carrying more glasses is better than not. But, you know, so for me, a, a 10 on my chest, a 15 in my bag, and, and a spotting scope, that's— well, and now we get into the days of the big eyes. Like, there's some days I have a lot more glass than, you know, I mean, I've gone into a glassy knob with 60 pounds of optics on my back before just because, and I'm always testing stuff and doing crazy stuff anyway, but I guess my point to that is, um, I love 15s. I think the bigger the country, the 15s certainly soak up some of that in between and, and, and make those, those really long looks better. Um, I think a guy can get away with 12s, especially when he's, um, you know, especially when the field of view makes it— I mean, you got to think about the field of view on a 15 is is normally about 230 feet, right, at 1,000 yards, and a 12 normally is, is 300 feet. So I mean, that's a fairly significant jump. And so I, again, I think a guy has to use what, what is comfortable for him and the job that he's— like, I've gone and gone through, man, I've— when Leica was you know, back in the early— this maybe late '90s or early 2000s, I kind of went through that 12-phase before 12s were really a big deal. Um, and, and I kind of put that to the test way back in the day. I did it again when the 1250 ELs came out, and it wasn't that I didn't like the ELs. It doesn't, doesn't mean I, I can't be successful with them. I think for what we do here certainly in this big open country, I think 15s help you out more than 12s do.

Um, you know, the interesting thing, and I've said this before, but I mean, I currently run 12, so this will contradict that, but I remember when I was running 15s, and I think it was spring bear hunting one that year, and, uh, I remember having this thought of like, man, with 15s you're looking through the trees, and at 12 you're looking at the trees, and there's a just a slight variation of like, you know, say I'm glassing a canyon 1,000 yards, 800 yards, whatever it is, 600 yards even. When I'm on 15s, it is like, man, we're looking almost through these trees because it's— you're like, you're a little bit tighter, and it's like, it feels like you're, you're looking—

if you, if you think about the history of the 15s, that literally what you just said right there is why the 15s were sold back in the day, because you weren't looking— I mean, and let's be really honest, 15s were used for for koozdeers. That's what I mean. That's really where they were born. I mean, you know, Dwayne Adams sitting on a high rock with a, you know, a shoddy at best tripod, but with 15— I mean, back in the '80s with $1,500 Zeiss 15x60s, right? So that's— I mean, that, that's where they were born. And, and, and the articles that were written in those days That's what they used to talk about is finding, you know, you were looking through trees and picking up deer as opposed to— so this is, and this is why I always go back to like, people always want to pin me on, well, what's, you know, this versus that. I'm like, whoa, where are we hunting? Like, what are we doing? Because if you go out my safe right now, I've got 12x50s too. So I think there's a lot of tools out there that can be used for certain things, but it's just, you know, kind of appropriate for what I'm doing at a particular time, right?

And it's probably hard— so hard for you to be like, you know, people probably ask, what's the favorite optic, all of those things.

Um, well, but, but, okay, but let's talk about that though. I'm more interested in what you— like, if, if you called me, Rich, and just said, hey Cody, this is what I do, this is where I hunt, and here's what the terrain looks like I'm gonna let that dictate what I, what I try. I, I don't try to sell you simply based on what I use. That's— I think that's horribly wrong. I want to know what you— I want to know where you're hunting and what you're doing and, and how that affects you, because that might be totally different than where I'm at. So I think it's all about, you know, that's why— I mean, it kind of back to that, like, hey, buy the best glass and, you know, the, the right thing for you. You put it on a tripod and, you know, certainly, you know, tripods are, are, uh, to me they're, they're, they're, they're force multipliers because it— I can glass with an 8 incredibly effectively. Now I'm not saying an 8's perfect for what we're doing, right? But don't kid yourself. You put an 8 on a tripod and go glass for elk, you'd be amazed at what you pick up and see, right? People just don't— they think, oh, there's no way that could— there's no way, I got to have 12s or 15s, right? But it, it all comes back to that brightness and, and, and resolution and clarity. All that stuff means something at a certain point in time.

And what's your thought on, um, what's your thought on stabilized binoculars? I feel like it's all the rage. Uh, everyone says you got to have them, but I have an argument against it.

So, I mean, okay, so there's a couple things. Number one, I will not deny and will ever deny, and I used to be one of those guys, I was sitting on the fence, and Brady and I were having the conversation, and Brady's the one who turned me on to him. And, and I'll go back so far as to say that it wasn't Brady that turned me on to him, it was a guy named Tony Badami that, that is a, a guy that used to work with my brother. That was using the Canons back in the '90s and was doing that before, before anybody else was thinking about doing it, before it was cool. Well, before it was even a thing, right? And so I will say this. There is no doubt. There is not even an argument that the stabilization works and it is a phenomenal tool. My problem with it is the field of views are horribly, like, 30% less in some cases than its comparative binocular. Okay, I'm not saying that you can't use them. I'm not saying you can't be successful, but I'm not going to cut— I love field of view. I want my eyes to do the walking within the entire view. And again, I'm never— I'm not saying you can't do it stabilized. I'm just saying I don't want to look through a paper towel holder. I don't want that. I want this look, not that look. And again, I come back to say this every time. I think there are tools for certain jobs. Now I'm going to tell you the one pet peeve I have about them. When you're sitting next to a guy that's using them and we're looking for a Coos deer or an animal that we found and we're looking in somewhat difficult terrain to keep track of them. Okay. If I have to explain to somebody one more time where that animal is because they've taken their binos down and they're looking at me and they're trying to figure out where I'm looking at, the first time is great. The second time, now you're starting— you're wasting my time at that point. Put them on the tripod, all right, and get them fixed on where they're supposed to be fixed. Because what you'll find out is that kooz deer's been standing in the same place for 30 minutes and you still can't find them, right? Now again, I'm not picking on the stabilization. I just want to see them keep evolving. I want to see wider field of view. I want to see the glass quality get better. But there is no doubt in their mind that they are doing something Incredible. I, I have a set. I love them. I, I use them in my truck every time I go out. But the cool part is I use them especially like during the rut, like this whole like end of, end of February— or I'm sorry, end of December and January. I'd be driving around and there's places that I know where deer will rut that I just roll the window down and put the binos out and below they're at it, shut the truck off, get my big glass out, and start really looking at how I want to look. And again, it's just using certain tools for certain things. So the common question is on the, on the, on the 42mm, do I use 12s? I think, I think Brady and Trail were, you know, Trail uses the 12s, Brady uses his 16s. For me. And by the way, the field of view isn't any different. It's 190— what, 194.5 feet? Or— I'm sorry, 199.5 feet. And it's just because of the way they're built. Now, that's not a lot of field of view for me, right? So if you're going to use 16s or 12s and they have the same field of view and you go under canopy in some place in Colorado where you're not going to be out of trees all day, I'm sorry, I just don't know that that's the best use of glass. Um, I mean, the, the 10x30s, they're the smallest of the bunch, but those have a field of view of like 273 feet. That's still roughly 50 feet shorter than a normal 10, right?

So The other thing, like, for me, the, the pet peeve I have— and I had them—

oh yeah, I'm very curious to what you have, what your pet peeve is. I, I love this stuff.

Uh, my pet peeve is, um, it's a change of behavior in that you could argue this either way, but in my opinion, um, once I started hunting around glassing, like, I was like, okay, this is the system. We're going to switch the system. Instead of covering ground, now we're locating glassing spots and we're putting time in, right? We're putting time behind the glass. The problem with those— and you can still throw them on a tripod, yes, but I think most people don't. They tend to move too quickly under— because it's like this tool, you know, it's kind of like— I always talk about this with four-wheelers or, or dirt bikes, whatever. When you have a certain tool, You like, when all you have is a hammer, all you see is nails. And when you have a four-wheeler, it's tough to walk places, right? Cause you're like driving around and you're like, oh, let's drive over here. Let's drive over here. Let's drive over here. Uh, same with the side-by-side, right? And, and you forget that how to use your legs. And when you have, uh, optics on a tripod, it's like an event to set. Like it's a little bit time. And like when I set up my tripod, I always set it up very level. I always set it up like we're going to be here for a little bit and I Do I, you know, I glass, you know, I spend time glassing, uh, similar to like, it'd be like walking around and calling and then every 2 seconds I move. Right. And you're like, there are people that do that as well. It's like, I'm just going to locate bugle, cover ground and wait until something answers. There, there is that, that is a system. However, like, I think you're losing a lot of opportunity in that, like, yeah, let's just cover ground and look. And I do think that like, maybe depending on where you are, what you're doing and what you're looking for, maybe covering ground with a pair of stabilized binos, binos, binos is, you know, something where you're gonna like, oh, I don't even have to use a tripod anymore. I just like look glass, nothing there. Ah, yeah, I don't know, maybe you catch 50% of the animals you would have, or maybe it's 80%. I don't really know.

But yeah, and again, Rich, I think this all comes back to like the area you're hunting, the time of year you're hunting, you know. I mean, are you going in blind that you've got to cover distance? Do you— I mean, I think there's so many things, and this is why I just come back to. And I, and I, and, and, and I think some guys— like, I've been accused like, oh, you just hate those. I'm like, I— it's not that I do. I don't. I, I just want to keep seeing them evolve. And I'm happy we're having the conversation. Like, I think that the, the stabilization and the spotters, for me personally, way more important to me than the binos.

Oh really?

Way more important because I'm that guy that likes to look at things at miles, right?

Right.

So for me, now that Swarovski is doing what they're doing and they've got that— it's— I mean, the latency, or, uh, this— I don't know, like you talk about the, the other brands, the, the latency or the, the, the sensitivity is basically like almost half of what the Swarovskis are. So the Swarovski is actually picking up some of that shimmer, you know, that, that vibration instead of just that inertia, that movement, right? So for me, if I can ensure that I'm focusing something at the longest distance, well, that's the diff— that might be the difference of, you got it, you know. If I'm bracketing a bullet 3 miles away, am I really—

is—

am I dealing with, you know, with heat waves, or am I— I mean, am I focusing, or like, what, what am I really looking at? And if, if you're gonna tell your buddy that's got a tag, or yourself, and I'm gonna go in there and chase that animal, and you get over there and it's the same bull, you're like, uh, Cody, that bull's not near as big as you thought it was.

Well, it's not even that, you know, it's— well, it's similar vein, but like, to me, and I've never seen anyone talk about this, maybe they do and I don't watch, but when I see the stabilized, uh, spotters, I— my biggest problem, I live in Montana, and so the wind is like constantly anything. If I'm looking at an elk over 5 miles away, it's like you're just, you're looking at a, you know, shaky, uh, yeah, like terrible footage. And so like, to me, I'm like, man, just if it can cut the wind. And I, you know, it's funny because I was like, everyone's like, oh, freehand these spots. I'm like, that's not a thing. No one cares about that. To me, it's like, can it cut the wind? And I don't know, I've never seen— maybe I'm wrong on this, but do they cut the wind, or is that like, is that why no one's marketing that?

Well, they telling The, the— I can tell you this for a fact, the Swarovski does. I mean, interesting. It's, it's evident. It's, it, it, it— the, the, the sensitivity is there, right? So all I can say is, is that— so for a guy, to put it this way, for a guy that's driving the winter range and he's looking at, you know, big giant bucks out, you know, he's just glassing and trying to figure stuff out. I, I know you can put those spotting scopes on your window mount, keep the truck running, heater on, and you— and it's stabilizing.

Oh, interesting.

I, I mean, how is that not cool?

Yeah, that's cool. I will give a shout out to, uh, my boy Bruce at Epoch Outdoors. He built an app that does— so when you record it, it can— I don't know, I'm gonna screw this up, sorry Bruce— but like essentially it can take that video when it's all shaky and level it out. I don't know. I'm just using that term. I don't know how it works. Yeah.

And so like you're, you're, uh, and I'm sorry, I'm, I, and I know who that is, but I'm— I want to look at that.

Uh, yeah, they make a, like a adapter for Digiscoping.

I like that.

Uh, and he has an app. I, I don't— a lot of people don't know about the app. The app you can film. So if like, if I film a bull 5 miles away and it's shaky, right. And then like I go back. And I can edit that footage.

It's—

I mean, it can stabilize it.

No kidding. I'm totally interested in that. Thank you for saying that. Um, yeah, anyway, yeah, Cody, I— it just goes back to the thing of is I don't like to be labeled, oh, you're just this and you hate those. And no, no, not— I want the best tool for the guy using the job and within the trainees doing it, right? But now that you've got me started down this road, I want the field of view. I want better glass. I want it all. Like, I don't care who built— I want it all, right? Because I do. If you could give me the same field of view and you could give me that low light and lastly, that first and last light, you know, that unbelievable, you know, brightness, resolution, and clarity, I'm in.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, yeah, I'm not— I, I'm in. I just want to keep evolving the, the system.

So talk a little bit about what makes, um, a good glasser. What, like, what are— like, when we talk about as a skill, what makes a good glasser?

Um, first of all, time in the field. I think people need to spend a lot of time practicing muscle memory, um, becoming familiar with that territory, terrain, feeling. Um, I, I— there are, there are times and places, and, you know, I hate saying things like this, but there's times that I'll be glassing with somebody and they're like, why, why are you like, why are you glassing right there? And it's just because I, because I grew up in central Arizona and I've been hunting it since I was a kid, and I just have a feeling in what I'm seeing in terms of vegetation. And I'm like, I, like, I know that there's going to be a deer in this area. And I, I think that the, you know, people always want shortcuts And Cody, I don't, I don't think there's a lot of short— I mean, yeah, you can listen and you can— we can do all the stuff and give, but people still got to go spend the time and, and, and recognize those colors, recognize those movements, those odd shapes, everything that makes it doing what you're doing. I, I just think that guys really need to spend more time in the field doing it. And I think if they— it comes back to that methodical part of it, that, that last part of the three pillars, right? Buy good glass, put it on a tripod and slow down and be methodical.

Right.

I think you learn a lot when you spend time out there and everybody wants a shortcut. And we all got certain vacation times and kids and, and, and, you know, we're all under the same pressures. I just think that the thing to maximize that is to really learn and focus. Um, maybe people need to break units up into smaller and, and focus on what's available in those areas and, and really learn them. But I think patience is— I personally, I just think that patience is, uh, the one thing that if they really slow down and pay attention to their surroundings I think they'll be a better glasser in the long run.

I think it's just good advice for hunting in general. The older I get, the better I get in that, like, I get more patient, right? Like, I spent a lot of time in my life hiking the leather right out of boots.

Yeah.

You know, and I learned the hard way. There's something to be said for it, right? Yeah. I think everyone's got to pay their dues and wear out a few pairs of boots. Man, spending more time behind the glass. Uh, yeah. And I think the other big thing I would say is like a couple things, like two. One is methodically choosing where to glass from. Like, that is something I've seen a giant difference in truly great hunters is knowing where to look from. Uh, that's crazy. And some of that's just boots on the ground, but some of that takes leather. Right.

Like, no, and again, it's about— and look, I may— I might hike to a certain point, but if I'm not seeing what I want to see, I might move down. I mean, it just kind of depends on where I'm at. But sometimes it's about changing the angle, just maybe 200 yards that way or 200 yards this way. Looking at something different, and all of a sudden you're like, oh, he's been in the— he's been there the whole time. And you kind of look at the angles and you're kind of triangulating and going, oh, I would have never seen him from there, right? But the deer's been laying, you know, wherever he's at for, you know, whatever, for however long, or bull or whatnot. But I, I think that, that— I think sometimes people say, well, you know, Cody, when do you know you've been in a place too long? I, I don't know. It, it kind of depends on what I'm seeing or not seeing.

Right.

Like, if, if you're going days and you haven't seen any deer, that's a problem, right? Like, look on the ground. Are you seeing deer sign around you? Are you— I mean, like, are you seeing anything that give you indication? And if they're not, I mean, you might, you know, I mean, you might need to move. I mean, if you, if you think about some of the biggest— but I mean, you know, I, I know we're talking about elk, but, but like, if you think about— I don't know if you can see the deer right behind me, right?

That's a stud.

That's a stud Coues deer, right? It's 126 and an eighth, and I feel incredibly fortunate to do that. But here's the thing, we found that deer by mistake. We were— we, we literally were were in an area and we saw that deer. We, we showed up late, we saw that deer, we spent 6 days trying to kill that deer, and he wasn't in an area any bigger than 3 or 4 football fields. Think about that for a minute.

Yeah.

Do you know how many deer I saw the entire time, or the animals that I saw the entire time and we, we ended up triangulating on him. We had 3 different guys in 3 different spots because we all had tags. I saw one doe, one fawn, and that buck. That was, that was in— well, I mean, so it would have been 5 days.

Wow.

So that's not very exciting. I mean, the, the left side of my face was— if— I mean, it felt like you know, bacon. Yeah, just because I'm, you know, I'm looking where I'm looking and the other guy's on the other side and he's looking where he's looking. That deer didn't move around very much. Yeah, so again, I, you know, I mean, but we saw that deer, and if you know habits of the game you're after, we knew that deer wasn't going anywhere. He was not moving. It was not the rut, it was not anything. That deer wasn't moving anywhere. And, you know, one of my buddies was like, yeah, let's go, let's push him out of there. I'm like, I'll shoot you in the leg. No, no, no, no, no, I will, I will shoot you in the leg. Do not do that. Let's just— he's gonna make a mistake, he's gonna show himself. And, yeah, and then, you know, fortunately I just, I was in the right place at the right time where that happened. And, and, you know, it, you get lucky sometimes. But, um, you know, there's another deer sitting up here to my right that's a 103-inch double mean bean buck. And you know, that deer, we'd been in that spot 7 or 8 times looking for, for, for scouting. And knowing that there was a non-typical in there, you know, that would— came from a reliable source that said, hey, I'd go look in this pocket. We went and looked in the pocket, and the entire 7 days we were there, we saw 4 does.

Wow.

No, it wasn't consecutive days, but we literally were going back and back and back. The night before the season, at a bush that we had looked at a thousand times, that deer crawled out of that bush. Yeah, standing there, just— I was like, there he is, 400 yards away. I said, I guess we're coming back here in the morning.

Yeah, I mean, I've had that, uh, that Arizona on— I was on— you could stare at the same hillside change angles, change it. It was like every second or third day you'd see a glimpse of a bull. It's like, man, you just can't— I mean, like, yeah, there's so many little hidey-holes. Um, but one of the, you know, one of the funny things when I think about glassing— last year we were in Wyoming, uh, we threw a dart at a map, went in there, I killed a stomper bull on opening day, and we got that thing packed out. It took a couple days to get it out, it was pretty far in. So we get back to the truck and, you know, we just got back to the truck making dinner. We're at a trailhead loaded with people, people everywhere. And Jaden throws up a spotter scope and a spotting scope and he's just glassing and, you know, looking around or whatever. And we ended up picking up a shooter bull that he ended up killing from the trailhead. And like, there's people all around and we were looking miles and miles away. And so I, I, one of the things I've learned is like, just because you're from the main road or just because whatever, like, man, just throw up glass, check the stuff that's far away. So many people overlook at that.

So my brother killed a bull once, not the biggest bull, not, but the story was kind of epic and, and the way we did it But when we went in there the morning, it was opening morning, and I'm on my way in, and, you know, we had, uh, there's probably 12 inches of snow on the ground. And, um, so it was a little rougher getting in there than what we thought it was going to take. But, you know, the sun's already up, and, and now I've— before we even got to where we ran into this other person The wind was kind of blowing and I've already looked at the bulls are right where we left them. Now I'm, I'm, I'm going in, this person's coming out and they're moving into another spot and I'm not going to name who it was, but it's a well-known guide that I know that I respect. And he's like, hey, I don't know, man. They're, you know, they're all, you know, held up. We're going to go to another spot. Well, they couldn't have been there that long. I'm sorry, they just— they could not have been there that long. And there was 5 bulls bedded a little bit in the shade, but you know, when the sun finally came up, they— I mean, it was— so to your point, man, sometimes you just got to ride it out and let, let the morning, you know, kind of take a little bit of life of its own and And, and again, they, they weren't giant bulls, but we ended up killing a bull that day. And I, I don't, I don't know why. I, I don't know why they would. I mean, there, there was other bulls in the bunch that were bigger than the bull my brother killed. I, I don't know, man. I mean, like, people, myself, and, and I, and I have to take him at face value. He's like, oh, the bulls are all, you know, hunker down and you know, they're not going anywhere. I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe he saw him, maybe he didn't want us to see him. I don't know what game he was playing, you know. I mean, I don't know, but I mean, I, I got— I mean, they, they didn't kill it. They didn't kill any bulls, right? Talk to him later, you know. I mean, and, and I know this person well enough to know that he would have said, hey man, did you kill the bulls laying up on the— but he didn't say that.

Yeah.

He's like, if there's— you kill the bull in there. Yeah. So I, I don't know. I mean, I'm just— all I'm saying is, is that I think that there's that, like, to your point exactly, I think that there's places that, that— and I think with all the pressure that has been happening lately from— I don't care if you're in wine, you know, you know exactly what's been going, right? So I mean, everybody's You know, there are no secrets anymore, but I just think that sometimes you just got to look in places and times that people aren't expecting it because you just never know what you're going to find. And I think the— I think the glass, the glass allows you to do that because you can cover country pretty dang quick if you give it a, you know, a minute.

Right.

But yeah, so I mean, it's, it's pretty awesome to have those situations come up.

Totally.

Yeah, you know, when you're, when you're not expecting it and you're like, I can't believe we're right here. And I mean, all this stuff is going around and, and right in front of you is, you know, an awesome situation that's turning into a, you know, a fun deal.

Now, I, I mean, I can't tell you how many elk I've— I, in the last 5 years, I have found so many elk glassing from my truck. And I don't know if it's because everyone's hiking around, whatever, but to me it's like, man, spotting scope. No, I give Drew, you know, like, hey Drew, build a better truck mount. And I feel like the truck mount that Drew built, um, nobody gives it credit because everyone like wants, you know, the backcountry, right? Uh, but like I get a lot of use out of that thing and like see, find a lot out that I can hunt.

Cody, this is the whole thing I'm talking about. There's tools for all of this, right? You know, like people would say, oh, you know, Arizona guys, you know, some of them are just road hunters. Well, You know what, sometimes you just gotta be able to look. I mean, hey, wherever I can look and see with my glass, right, and, and, and save time, and I can— I mean, there may be a spot that I'm looking at that's a pocket of deer that maybe I just know that they're always right where they're at. I, I don't have to go pushing those deer around. I don't have to go intrude into their space. Yeah, I, I can leave them alone, and I think that there's something really cool about that. I, I think at the end of the day, I don't know, maybe that's just why I got into glassing so long ago, is that I, I, I've been infatuated with it, that we could sit somewhere and I felt like I was watching TV. I, I, you know, I mean, I, I, I've, I've, I've literally, the, the moment that I got into that, I just you know, riding around in the truck with my dad, or, you know, just being quiet and, and watching them in their own environment. Um, and again, I've always said this, like, I don't know if I'm the best killer in the world, but I can, I, I can hold my own with finding game. I don't, I don't, I just really, I just really enjoy finding game. I enjoy watching them in their habitats without having them any clue that I'm ever anywhere around.

So I'm curious, what's your, what's your thought on the, the Tricer Micro Pen? I think that's pretty amazing too.

I, again, for me, if you're using, you know, 8s, 10s, 12s, you can get away with a 15 because it's so smooth in the pan. I think that that really helps it when you go to the twist on the bigger optics, your hand will become somewhat the steadying factor. But how do you argue with something that's 4.4 ounces, right?

Right, right.

I mean, I mean, so I think it— if you're a day hunter where weight's a consideration or not a consideration, but if you're a backpacker, how do you argue with that, right? And so, um, yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's a— and I, I think there's, there's times to Do I want what I call the good weight? And does it, does it have a steadying, calming effect, effect on your glass? Or, you know, are you fighting it all day? Because if— I mean, I'm not going to take an LP and use it on a set of, you know, Koa Highlanders that are 13 pounds. That doesn't work, right? So I, I think, I, I, I think when people use the appropriate tripods and gear I think sometimes you can make things too light, and then, you know, you may be one of the guys that, you know, that puts a sandbag on his or fills up rocks and hangs it. I mean, I think all of those things are acceptable, and I, I tend to like my favorite setup. I don't have it here, it's in the garage at the moment, but my favorite setup is the, the AD. And a, in a, in the, the 360 with a BP on it because I can manipulate pretty much anything up to my 150 BTX 115 on that and be perfectly fine with it.

Yeah.

Um, so it, it just kind of depends on again what, what you're doing. But I love the— when, when you just want to, you know, like run up a hill and, and, or be lightweight, there's— I don't, I don't know. I don't think— is there anything better than the LP?

No, LP is—

um, and I tend to— my tripods tend to be a little bit— I, I like the longer. I don't necessarily always like the, the more compact, like the BC. I like the BC, um, but I don't know if you can tell or not, but I'm a pretty broad-chested guy, and for me to get in behind that, I, I have to extend it and get on it. So, um, I just like longer-legged tripods like that. So, um, and my God, the, the AD is— I mean, I think the— I think it's really actually only like a couple ounces heavier, but you're getting a little bit longer length out of it. And so for me, that, that helps me. I kind of like to be underneath and into a tripod as opposed to around a tripod. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I bounce between both. I, you know, I ran the BC for quite a while. Um, now if I'm doing a backpack hunt, I'll just take the BC. It doesn't really matter, to your point, but, you know, BC with an LP on it, or I'll do the Tracer AD with an LP on it.

Um, well, yeah, isn't it interesting that so much that we come and talk about, Cody, it all comes back to what are you doing right now, right? I, you know, I mean, and, and I'm not saying I, I'm probably not the fair guy always to ask, because if you go down in my garage, there's probably 30 or 40 tripods down there that I've collected over the years that I've got from clear back to— I have the original, my original compact tripod was what was called a Coleman. It's basic. I don't even know if it weighs a pound. The legs come out and they just go to one spot. They like, it's, I mean, it's anywhere in between, but there's no clicks. There's no, you know, like it doesn't hold it. I mean, it's For the, for the love of God, it's an awful tripod. But you know what, any tripod is better than no tripod, dude.

I carried around a 4-pound Manfrotto tripod. Oh yeah, with a fluid head for like an aluminum one forever. Like, yeah, I packed that thing forever and I loved it because I could— on the Manfrotto, I could just put my whole binos right on top of the deck. That's how big it was. It's like your binos just fit on the deck and then, you know, you could pan around or throw your spotter up. So yeah, I used that for years, and I would— that was the one thing I was like, I'll never not take my tripod. I might not take my spotter, but I will take the tripod. Like, if I had to like cut some weight, it would be the spotter, not the tripod.

I was talking at a seminar once, and I made this statement. I said, you know, I said, guys, because a guy questioned me, he's like, well, you know, is it really that important?

And I go—

I just told him, I go, hey, look, I would rather forget my rifle then forget my tripod. And he's like, that's, you know, I'm like, look, here's why. Because I can still, I can still make use of the morning, right, or whatever it is, and I can still find deer that I can go back and kill another time because I haven't been in there screwing them up, right? So he, that guy literally came to me after the seminar and was like, hey man, do you like— I'm like, look, I'm not I, I was kind of being funny when I said that, but that's— it's the way that I feel, right? I don't want to be without my glass and out my, my tripod. I would rather forget those or forget my rifle and then go back and be able to kill it another time, right? That, that's all I'm saying, right? And I, I think, again, I'm very patient when it comes to glassing. I, I can do it for hours on end. I can do it from sunup to sundown.

Are you a chair guy or do you sit on the ground?

I'm more of a natural guy. I kind of like finding the, you know, I always have a pad with me. I have carried a walk stool. What I find is, is the places that I end up going so many times, you're not really in level ground. So I will, I'm not one, I will displace or I will find a you know, I don't know, I try to find a natural place that my, my fat butt will fit into and will. And but I just, I've never been a big chair, like all the time everywhere guy. If that, hey, if that helps you do it.

Yeah.

But, but I'm going to tell you a little funny story about I think what happens with guys chairs a lot. I think guys, when they're using chairs, I think they put themselves in positions a lot of time that are mainly maybe on top of the ridge as opposed to down in the ridge. And I've always thought that I, I still try to use basic hunting, you know, etiquette. Well, not etiquette, but just like, I just try not to skyline myself, right? And I think what happens is that a lot of times, and, and it's an odd thing, there are people that say, oh, I, I only stand in glass? Well, I, I would tell you that I think anytime you get your glass farther away from the ground, exponentially the higher it gets, the more shaky they become. And on a 10-day hunt, let's just say, the way that I think about glass or glassing and keeping your, you know, optics steady is to avoid eye fatigue. So If, if we could take them— if we could calculate all the time that you spend clearing your eyes or Visine or taking Advil or taking a nap because you're tired, and I could help you keep your eyes steady or your glass steady to help your eyes not become tired, what if I told you at the end of a hunt you get 3 more hours to hunt? Mm. So to me, it's about how do I maximize the time behind the glass? And I know, Cody, you're sitting there thinking, man, this guy's really thought about this a lot. And to me, it's always about maximizing your time behind the glass. So if I, if I told you at the end of a hunt, like a soccer game, it's— you think is 90 minutes and they all of a sudden give you 3 or 4 more minutes because of penalty time. That, that you get more time to hunt, well, would, would you take it?

Oh yeah.

So my thing is, why don't we do those things throughout the hunt to help mitigate that? And that's, to me, that's what it's all about.

What percentage do you feel like your, your eyes are actually on glass? I've always wanted this because like people, guides used to talk about like, oh, you know, every minute, or being on the glass, being on the glass. Full ADD here, like I don't know if I'm the best at that. I'm gonna call a spade a spade. I don't know if I'm spending enough, like, eyes on glass, you know. I can— I could sit on a glassing knob with the best of them.

Yeah.

And tie myself down to, you know, whatever. But like, eyes in glass, what's like— what is like top guides doing versus everyone else? First, like, I, I just don't hunt with people, so I'm like, I don't know. Is everyone else just like solid 8 hours a day, like, eyes on glass?

I mean, I will tell you that I think there's times that it feels like that. Like it— like there's days where it feels like, man, I think I've been— I literally think I've been on it, you know. And I think it also depends on, are we just glassing or are we looking for something specific, right?

Right. Are we waiting on a buck?

Because I found a bull, me and a buck. We were helping J. Scott and we found a bull and we were on our way to our glassing deal. I'll just tell you the story real quick if you got a quick minute, because the end story is pretty awesome. So we found this bull— or I'm sorry, we were kind of late. We had a flat tire, it was mud. I mean, there's just all kinds of stuff going wrong, right? So we get— we're late getting to our glassing point, which, I mean, that is just almost sacrilegious when it comes to glassing. Like, just don't be late. Like, get there early, be on time. You know, sun's coming up, you see see a lot more stuff anyway. So we were late, so my buddy and I split up. I said, hey, you go to the top, I'm gonna play around with the bulls that I can hear just in these little chutes and whatnot. And so I saw a couple decent bulls there, you know, a couple of 330 kind of bulls, there's a 350. And then for whatever reason, I just decided to, to take my quad. I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go down this road that I— it wasn't even a road, it was just like like a little spike that somebody took off. So I, I went down the road, I parked the quad, and, and, and I just took my tripod, my glass, and I walked off the edge. And all of a sudden I just hear this, and I'm like, whoa. And I put— I, as fast as I could put my tripod up, and, and at this point I'm standing because it's all about speed now. And as soon as I I put my glass in the area, there was like just an open spot and the sun was just coming up and hitting it. And I don't know, Cody, if this makes sense or not, but you know when you, you can hear the rocks kick and then you look to somewhere and you can almost kind of see the cow jump, you know, like it's all happening kind of in slow motion kind of thing?

Yeah.

Well, I'm like, oh man, there's a cow right there. And I, and I knew this bull pushing that. She, she jumped just like she'd been pushed. Not, you know, not like she was scared or something. But man, this bull steps into this, you know, this, this opening, and I'm just— I'm— Cody, this is, this is a bull of a lifetime. It, it, it's, it's got stuff like— I mean, I, I can't even begin to describe to you. I mean, we're not talking 400, we're talking well over 400. I mean, we're talking like a— like, you know, I'll say this in a minute. So I, I immediately, I got on my radio and called my buddy and like, hey, I'm like, you need to come down here. And when you get to where I left you, you take that little spike, you come down to my quad, shut it off, and you walk directly, you know, away from the sun, like at your back. And I, I could hear him racing down there and he's like, what's that? I'm like, just get down here now. So we get there, sure enough. I mean, now by this time I've watched this bull maybe travel 100 yards, and he's pushing one cow, and all he does is do this. He's— it's not even a bugle, it's just a— it's a frog. So he, he, he literally pushes a cow over, she beds down, and he gets up underneath this dead, like, tree, and I've got him pegged. I've— I literally, I'm texting Jay on my cell phone because he's in a different part of the unit that you can't get to from where we're at. Like, you, you've got to make a different arrangement to get there. And I call him, I go, hey, drop what you're doing, be here where I'm at now. And he's like, how big? I'm like, I don't know, way bigger than anything that you're on. Get here now. And he's like, how big? I'm like, I don't know, well over 400. And he's like, oh God, well, you know, we'll be there, we'll just be there as soon as we can. Yeah. So my buddy gets there, finds my quad, walks directly out, you know, just to the first opening that you could see. And I get him set up. Now by this time I've tried to get myself down in the shade. I mean, the sun's right on top of me, the, the elk is bad. And so I tell my buddy, I'm like, okay, see where the, you know, the dead tree is? And yeah, and I go, okay, you see all the branches that are going this way? And he's like, yeah. I go, well, you see the big one that's like 45 against it? And all of a sudden the bull just goes, shakes his head. And I could literally hear the air suck out of him. He's like, oh my God, it's like, that's a res bull. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I'm like, this is like gigantic. So anyway, we stayed on that bull, and when I tell you that we stayed on that bull, we did not see Jay or the hunter We literally did not see them until 2:30 or 3 o'clock that afternoon. Got— we, we, we got them in, we pulled, you know, and this is an archery hunt, same thing. We get everybody in, we get everybody set up, and literally at the same time the bull has not— and by the way, the bull's still bedded in this, needs the same tree. This has gone on all day, and I, I describe it the exact way And just as I described it to Jay, the bull literally stands up and literally I hear Jay go like, I mean, he's like, oh my God, that's a res bull. And the hunter, Michael Parks out of Estacada, Oregon, this is like his 53rd or 54th bull that he's going to go after with a bow. And he's like, Oh my God, it's a res bull! And we're not even close to the res. We're somewhat close to the res, but we ain't that close to the res, right? But the point is, the point is, is that now we're, we're like, okay, now what do we do? Well, now the wind starts swirling, and we're at this point, we're about 400 yards, and we have not— I have personally not taken my eyes off the glass. I've been there all day, and my buddy has been there all day. So now we're making plans. Well, unfortunately, I had to leave that night. My buddy had to leave after the next morning. 3 days later, they kill that bull. 2 days later, they kill that bull. 436.

Jesus. So big.

I will probably die before I see another bull like that. Yeah, that, that when, when, you know, Michael, when Michael killed that bull, they killed it, I guess it was not the next day, but it was the second day after we found him. And Michael is as good a bow hunter and as solid. I mean, he is top-notch. He's— I mean, he's just fantastic. Jay, and I mean, and, and this was a hand signal, like no radios deal. I mean, he— like, certain guys want to do certain things, and you know what, it's your hunt, you will do whatever you want to do. Yeah, but they, they got over and they— I mean, he smacked that bull and he nicknamed the bull Nelly. Everybody calls him Nelly, but when they were standing, they sent me like a video of, you know, back in the day those were flip phones, like, I mean, we barely had video capabilities. And I just remember being like, oh my God, I mean, the, the fronts. And you could look it up, I mean, if you type in, uh, Michael Parks Unit 23 bull, or J. Scott Unit 23 bull with Michael Parks, You see pictures of it, it's absolutely unbelievable. Unbelievable. Um, and it's a bull of a lifetime.

That's a bull of a couple of lifetimes.

Uh, oh, you could say that again. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I honestly, I, in my own heart of hearts, I don't think you'll ever— I don't think I'll ever see a bull like that again. I hope so. I mean, I'll keep doing it.

Yeah.

But holy cow, I mean, that, that just doesn't happen every day. And, and I've been, I've been around a number of big bulls, but that is by far and away the biggest bull. And, and, but, but the tenaciousness, the glassing, the, the staying after, like, we just never came— I mean, you know what I mean? Like, so that was pretty pointed, right? Yeah, that was a once-in-a-lifetime chance. When I got home, my wife like literally my face, my whole left side of my face was just like, like melted butter. It was just like, it was awful.

Yeah.

So, um, I don't know what to answer your question. Yeah. I mean, but to answer your question, like, I don't, I don't know. I've never thought of it in that, but I mean, I like to think that I'm maximizing time as much as possible and I'm staying in the glass more than the average guy.

That's awesome.

Now, when you have people with you and you're jaw-jacking and you're kind of having fun and grab-ass— I mean, look, I don't— I, I'm there to have fun too, right? But there's times to be serious and times not to be. And, and, um, I don't know, man, I just— I, I have a knack for it, and, and I like to pass that knack on to other people. And there's nothing more rewarding to me than to help somebody with a piece of glass, a tripod, and, and just that one little thing of like, look, if you'll just try this— and I don't care whether you have a set of Crossfires that you've taken your own surgical tubing and wrapped it on a piece of plywood, I, I've seen it all. I don't care how you get it on a tripod, but if you, if you'll try And you'll do that. I, I, I've got hundreds if not thousands of texts over the years of people saying, Cody, you literally changed the way that, that I do this, and I've seen more game in the time that I've done it this way than I have without, right? I, I, I don't know that there's anything more rewarding to me.

Nice.

You know, especially when they're talking about teaching their kids how to do it and their kids are enjoying it and they're spending more time with their kids because their kids are, you know, it's, you know, when a kid says, hey Dad, this is better than a video game— I don't know if it is or not, I don't play video games— but if that's what that kid thinks, I've had that before, right?

Yeah.

So if I can give people that passion and that, that help to get to that spot, that's pretty cool stuff.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on, giving us the— some, some secrets, an amazing story. That's got me excited about elk season.

Should we, should we at least talk about what I've got going on? What?

Yeah, we could do that.

We get—

yeah, 100%.

I, I kind of— we get taught— you get me to talk about glass and I forget about a lot of stuff real quick. Uh, I am, uh, I am a full-time employee of Tracer.

Congrats, Drew sucked you into his pyramid scheme.

And, you know, we've been talking and consulting for so long and doing things, and, and, uh, you know, I'm still, I'm still helping GoHunt and still bridging that gap. And, uh, and I'm, and I, I love my GoHunt family to death, and I'll never, never forget them, and I will continue to help them as long as I can. Um, but, uh, long story short, I am a full-time, uh, Drew calls me the Director of Innovation Nice. So I, uh, I have been charged with helping take anything in the past and anything in the future and trying to help, uh, you know, better, you know, Tracer's tripod or whatever. It doesn't matter, um, whether it's, it's bipods or tripods or, you know, just the, the little pieces and, and accessories. It's all about making people glass and, and, and be more efficient in the, in the backcountry.

Well, I would say it's a cool position. I think it makes sense. It makes sense for both of you guys. You know, you're an innovator in the space as well. And Drew's a great dude, good friend of mine. So happy to see it. Cool to see, you know, Drayser— Drayser, not Drew— growing. Drew's about the same height, but Drayser's growing.

But yeah, his mustache has grown, that's for sure.

Trying to keep it up with me.

Yeah, he's trying to—

he's letting it go.

Yeah, uh, Cody, we got some really cool stuff coming over there. We got a lot of stuff in the pipeline, and I've been just telling people to hang on to their hats because we're going to try to do some cool stuff. And, uh, and I, I couldn't be more excited to make the change. And, and, uh, but, you know, optics is still my thing, and, and, uh, there's a, you know, we're just kind of— it's kind of, it's kind of nice to— I gotta be honest with you, it's kind of nice to be on the other side a little bit, like, um, you know, where I was selling everything, right? Yeah. And, uh, now I'm a little bit, you know, obviously more, uh, streamlined as to what I'm doing. But I believe in the company, I believe in what we're doing, and we're going to create some really cool stuff.

It's cool. Well, you guys got a great team, um, and I think you guys are gonna— man, as fast as Drew innovated before to, to bring on some real A-players, it's going to be pretty exciting to see what you guys can develop. He's, uh, He—

I will tell you that my onboarding experience has been nothing short of incredible, that he has put together like truly an incredible A-player kind of team. And, uh, and they, they're very passionate people, and I feel, um, I'm blessed and grateful to be involved.

That's awesome. So, well, wish you guys the best. Uh, yeah, and if anybody's interested, go check out tricer.com if you need a new tripod. Go pick up, uh, an AD or a BC, whatever fits.

Yeah, the, the, the, yeah, the new ones. Uh, yeah, man, I just, I can't get over how good they are.

Yeah, yeah, they are sweet.

Well, I tell you what's really interesting about them, and if I can just tell a quick thing, is that, you know, Drew and I were talking about these and the changes that, that, that, you know, I was getting feedback on and I, I really thought needed to be made, and, and they made those changes, and he— and Drew comes back to me and says, hey, I got one coming to you, here you go. And it's funny because there's people that, whether they were a fan or not a fan, but all of a sudden they heard about the changes and they saw them at the shows. I got people that are pretty hardcore dyed-in-the-wool, you know, glassers that are now like going, hey man, I, uh, I saw the changes and you guys knocked it out of the park in this deal. And so he's, he's not afraid to make changes and listen to what customers have to say. I can tell you that.

That's, uh, that's what it takes to build a good thing.

Yeah, buddy. So I appreciate the opportunity to come on.

Yes, sir.

And, uh, you have a great podcast. And, and, uh, it's— I, to be honest, I, I can't believe we haven't done this sooner. But I'm, I'm— I don't mean that like we should have, like, yeah, I, I mean that like I just feel blessed that you gave me the opportunity to come on here and talk about the thing I love most, and that's glassing.

Cool. Well, I appreciate you coming on. Uh, thanks again, and, uh, yeah, good luck this year.

We'll talk to you soon.

All right, thanks, Cody.

Yeah, buddy.

Alrighty, guys, thanks for tuning in to the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's 100% free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out. Links in the show notes, or you can check our website, www.elkhunt201.com.