A Baker's couple on day one at The Oval

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So, close of play on the first day of the second Test match at The Oval. New Zealand 291 for 7 having been put into bat after all the mayhem of the last 10 days. Well, and the Lord's Test match as well. Some hard-fought Test cricket at the Oval. Phillips, 49 not out at close of play. We saw an 8-over spell from Joffre Archer towards the close as well. He kept on going, kept on peppering Phillips. Sonny Baker picking up a couple of wickets on his Test match debut. Jacob Bethell pinching 2 at the end. 2 for 8 from 5 overs, and New Zealand basically finding ways to get out on what we anticipate will turn into a decent batting pitch at the Oval. Jonathan Agnew and Michael Vaughan alongside me. Well, pick the bones out of that day, Michael.

Well, I think England will be delighted. Uh, I mean, won the toss, um, there was a bit of movement there throughout the day, but not, not extravagant. It, it looks to me like it's a good batting pitch, and New Zealand have helped the England cause with a few soft dismissals. A few players— I thought Blundell getting in, getting to 50. Well, there you go. He's had such a good record against England. He's the one that's going to go and get the three figures, and then he gifts Jacob Betheler an easy one in his first. And Nathan Smith just did a full toss in the air to Jordan Cox, strangled down the leg side. There's been, you know, quite a few dismissals that I think— I think New Zealand in that dressing room now, I think, oh, How has not at least one or two of them ended up with a decent score and at least one or two not out tonight? Full credit to Glenn Phillips, that he played beautifully in terms of the contest with Joffre Archer. That was a real high-quality Test match cricket. But I think from where England have been over the last few days, with pretty much a brand new attack, debutants on show, I thought they put up a really good show today. It was very clever from Jaheer. I liked his tactics. He was moving the fielders all over the place. Very thoughtful, very kind of inventive at times. And yeah, I think England will be the better of the two teams in the dressing rooms.

People really looking at the pitch, you know, we come to the Oval, it's often green at the start, and the captain often wins the toss— who does win the toss puts the opposition in. How did you assess the pitch today?

Well, it looks like there was a bit of movement there, but it looks a nice pitch for batting. I thought when Glenn Phillips came out, he kind of timed a few through the COVID point region. I thought, well, if someone can get in I think it's the kind of pitch that if someone gets in and wants to be really aggressive, I look at Harry Brook or Jordan Cox, and you know, I would think on that kind of surface, day 2 generally is the best day for batting. And if England can get rid of the 3 wickets quickly in the morning, it should be a really good day for batting. Day 2 going into day 3, and one or two of the England players should be looking at that pitch, looking at the bounce consistent from what we saw at Lord's a week or so ago. This is the kind of week as a batter that I look down and think, put a nice deposit in the bank.

Jonathan, New Zealand will be kicking themselves.

I think so. I just thought they looked rusty. They look, they look short of cricket, you know. They've been kicking their heels since Lords, trying to get rid of that match out of their heads, which is very difficult for them there. That won't have done confidence much good. Yes, they played against Ireland and one or two got a score, but they just look a bit rusty to me, you know. They got starts, didn't they? You know, Latham 27, Nicholls 24, Ravindra 33. Mitchell 44, Brundle, when all that— that's, that's all of them getting in, uh, and then, yeah, contriving largely to, to get themselves out. It could have been worse. I mean, if Mitchell had been caught down the leg side at leg slip as well, that'd be another strangle. It says it doesn't feel like it's quite running for them at the moment, um, whereas England, I, I thought were excellent actually. I thought that's— and the highlight was that spell of Archer's. That brought the day to life. It brought the crowd to life. Great to see him running in like that. He was trying different things. His arm release point was really quite varied. I think he was going for some reverse swing. He bowled a massive wide down the offside because again he was really trying to force out a reverse swing, which generally reverse swing you do bowl with a lower arm. And now Archer is well known as we know having a really high action and high release point. So he's— whether he's learned one or two new tricks over there in the winter in the IPL as well. I'm not sure, but I thought just for hostility and that contest with Phillips, it's what it's all about, isn't it? You know, you see a batsman ducking and diving, smiling, putting his thumb up, shades of Derek Randall there back in the day, you know, just really, really relishing the contest against a genuinely fast bowler.

And it's so unusual to see a fast bowler running for 8 overs at the end of the day. Sometimes you think earlier in the day, but at the end of the day.

Yeah, well, he's perhaps proving a point. People talk about his fitness, didn't they? And he's off to Barbados for his holidays and so on after the IPL, how could he possibly come back and play a Test match? Well, I think someone earlier on, he does look fit, he does look strong, and yeah, he came back there really, really well. That was a really impressive spell of fast bowling because it's not a quick pitch, it was just really hostile.

Okay, well, it was a debut for Sonny Baker today, picked up a couple of wickets. He's with Daniel Norcross.

He is with me, Sonny Baker.

Hello.

Your first day of Test cricket, was it everything you dreamt it was going to be?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's hard work. It's a pretty decent wicket, and normally at the Oval you've got keepers 50 meters back taking it over their head, but at the start it seemed a little bit more tennis-bally, so it was just trying to adjust your lengths to that, and eventually we found our way there. And yeah, be a bit of a graft tomorrow to finish them off, and then hopefully sat with the feet up for 2 days while all the boys Churn them up, churn them in.

Pile them on. All of those, it's out. That's easy for you to say. Now then, your first wicket, Rachid Ravindra. Just talk us through that moment when you know it's stuck in her hands, it's out. How did you feel?

Oh, well, I mean, it's probably pretty obvious how I felt at the time. Yeah, just super, super excited, you know. So obviously after my other two debuts, it's just desperate to get on the board and yeah, so happy after my first over was done. I was like, cool, okay, I can now get stuck into the game and then Felt rhythm felt a little bit better second spell and yeah, just, oh, good catch from Beth actually. But yeah, buzzing, he clung on to it.

And then you get the second as well. And that's one that's about pace, you know, missed timing. That must have felt pretty good.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, Daryl's a pretty decent player of the short ball, but I thought it'd be worth a crack. Like, there's no point just banging away on the front foot the whole time. It's worth mixing it up. And especially if you've got a bit of airspeed, why not? Like, as Baz said in interviews before, That's why you have bowlers with their speed on wickets that are a little bit flatter and are generally good. Obviously, as we've seen in the campo here, it's been a very good wicket, high-scoring draws. So yeah, hopefully we can finish them off tomorrow and then go from there.

It's been a bit of a roller coaster for you the last couple of weeks. Suddenly you're making your Test debut. When did you find out? How did you feel? What were the nerves like?

Oh, I mean, obviously there's a little bit of commotion last week. And I sort of thought I might be in with a sniff in that, you know, obviously Ollie Robb, unfortunately, his knee's a bit sore and that then takes 3 seamers out the equation. And I was obviously doing 12-footers. I thought, oh, I'm in with a bit of a chance here. I wasn't sure what the balance of the side was going to be and whether they're going to play Fish or then go with Rohan as a spinning all-rounder or what. Obviously I had no idea. I'm not a selector, but yeah, then obviously found out, got the news. Couple of days before, which was awesome because I could, one, sort tickets, which can be a nightmare last minute, um, and then two, just mentally prep myself and get stuck in. But yeah, really, really happy with how the first day's gone, obviously.

Now, you played here, as you alluded to, about 10 days ago against Surrey, and Matt Fisher was playing at that point.

Preparation, wow.

Yeah. Well, did you think that it was going to be between you and Matt Fisher? Because I was commentating that game and I thought you had some extra wheels that game.

Oh, I did crank it up. I mean, obviously they, they were they were all over us for a period of time. And wow, Dan Lawrence batted ridiculously well. And, you know, we did end up going to the short ball quite a lot. And obviously that's in the side that we have, obviously got the most airspeed. So I was used to do that and yeah, got fizzed up to crank it up at that period of time. So yeah, I think I gave it a bit, that's for sure.

Last question, your little black book, I've heard about this. Can you tell us what are the entries that are going to go in that this evening, if it goes in this evening?

Yeah, I think it is just more around analysis stuff that I've done on the batters. So, you know, we've had some really detailed analysis calls and— sorry, not calls, meetings, which has been awesome. Like, that's normally the way we do it at Hampshire as well. And yeah, it's just great. Rupert's been working really hard to get some data on their batters and the plans at Lord's worked fantastically well. And even still in here, you're seeing bits of that come through. Obviously, you've probably noticed we've got leg slips in and stuff for different batters, and there's rationale behind that. And yeah, we've definitely reaped the rewards for that, for sure.

So do you put your words in this evening, and then, you know, do you like physically take those two players and stick them in your back pocket? You've got Ravindra and Mitchell now.

No, it's not quite like Cookie's where he's got obviously everyone, every good player he's got out, he'll write in the book. But mine's more around like learnings from the day or You know, oh, something that I was trying to do to manage my emotions that worked really well was X. And then I'll be like, okay, when you're feeling like your rhythm's out or, you know, a cue that worked particularly well or a delivery that worked particularly well against a certain batter, even if the analysis doesn't say that. Like, for example, there's a couple of left-handers where I'd normally be round the wicket and swing it away, but from over, even though their stats are better from over, it's felt like to me, that's not Ratchoom specifically, but for other batters in the County Champ, for example, where you're like, oh, I just feel like I've been all over them when I've been over the wicket, whereas from Round it felt like they could line it up better. So it's just little intricacies like that where the stats might not necessarily say that, but me as a bowler and how I let go of the ball. Yeah, those things. So little bits like that, all sorts of different stuff. Yeah.

And the pitch itself, but genuinely, finally, did it feel a little bit— a bit better than you were expecting too. At the Oval on the first day, often wickets tumble. They didn't. It felt like the pitch was a bit easier than you might get on a day one at the Oval normally.

Yeah, it was a little bit, as I said, a little bit tennis ball-y at the start. And I think the overheads weren't brilliant either. It was meant to be pretty cloudy all day and then suddenly the sun comes out. And often in England, as most of the overseas bowlers who I've talked to speak about, it's like England's almost always look up, not down in that If it's swinging around and overheads are good, then you can make a wicket look like it's doing all sorts, even if it's quite a good wicket. And then sun comes out and suddenly it's like, 'Phwoar, this is an absolute road, where's this come from?' So yeah, I think it's just one of those things where hopefully, as I said, we can finish them off tomorrow and then get stuck in with the bat.

Congratulations, Sonny, the first Sonny to play Test cricket for England.

Wow.

Okay, well, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the very first one. Uh, Simon, back to you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, uh, Dan. 23 years of age, fair to say he's quite quite confident.

Shy and retiring individual, I would say, Sonny Baker. But, uh, isn't that great? I mean, you know, there's confidence there, isn't there? There's confidence. You know, he's, he's got a lot of self-belief, obviously. He mentioned his two other debuts, which clearly were, yeah, um, tricky.

Uh, and for 76 off 7 overs against South Africa and 0 for 52 against Ireland.

Yeah, tricky. So to get, you know, going properly— I mean, this, this is the format that he's going to be You'd think running and bowling fast, this is going to be his format, isn't it? Airspeed, that's a new—

Oh, there was another one, fizz.

Fizz.

Old with a bit of fizz.

My favorite phrase or saying from that interview was, there was a little bit of commotion last week.

That was hilarious. That really encapsulates the whole scenario. Yeah, but no, he did bowl nicely, you know. He is confident, he is confident. And, you know, he had to wait a bit for his first wicket, but then, you know, the celebration, it's just the culmination of everything, isn't it? You know, all the hard work and the training and the dreams that one day you're gonna—

might—

you might play for England, and suddenly it's there, bang, and you get the wicket. It's fantastic.

I think he's going to be, over the years, you know, a bowler and a player that the fans are going to absolutely adore. You know, he just— with the interview, he's just talking like he probably talked when he was 15 playing back at Somerset. You know, he's just got a bundle of energy. He loves playing the game, and he's going to charge in for England. There'll be days that don't go his way, but you know, you saw him when he got his wicket, he went down to the boundary, he was right in with the fans.

Yeah.

You know, he was getting the fist up, and you know, I just think it's a natural energy that he's going to provide the England team with. And you know, to cope with this, these surroundings on your Test match debut, on a week that he mentioned the commotion. He looked the part. I always think, you know, does he look right in the shirt? You know, when you're playing, Amilo Gay looked right on his debut a week or so ago, and Sonny Baker today, he looked every bit an England cricketer, which is great for the team.

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We might look back, you know, after, you know, in the wake of all the commotion and however it pans out. Actually, this game's been quite useful. However the rest of the summer goes and whoever comes and goes or however it is, actually to get him playing and to get Matt Fisher playing. You know, it's just maybe with the football going on, you know, and so on, so maybe there's not quite so much focus on this. Just quietly, a couple of, you know, decent young prospects have just slipped back into playing cricket again and playing for England.

How do you feel Matt Fisher went today then?

Yeah, I mean, I don't think it was the usual Oval wicket that he would have been used to on day ones for Surrey where the ball pretty much does everything. I thought he offered control. I didn't see too many bad balls. I thought Joe Root was quite clever in his field setting. I love the keeper coming up at times. You know, there was a little bit— I was a bit surprised when he came around the wicket swinging into the left hand at the start. So was I.

That's my one criticism.

Yeah, I would have thought over the wicket swinging it back in would have been a better threat for someone like Matt Fisher. Um, to right-handers, he looks a real threat. To left-handers, I, I think there's a little bit of work in progress. His stats tell you that he averages 35 against left-handers, 24 against right-handers. So he's got to try and even that up. I'm not saying that he'll get to averaging 24 against the lefties. That's pretty much a world beater if you can. But if you can just become a, a bowler that's not always just swinging it back into the left-handers, and he's got that ability to kind of nip it away, and I'm sure he has. But today it was pretty much one way to the lefties, and that's something that he's going to have to work on.

Yes, he has got a wobble. Uh, in fact, he set up, uh, was it Phillips, um, really nicely with some outers, and then that little wobble nipped back just a little bit too high for LBW. But I mean, I like him. He's tall, he can bowl a full length, and that's, that's, that's really— for a tall person to bowl a full length, uh, is, is really useful. And he, and he did swing the ball away. But I'm with Michael. I cannot understand. It doesn't— there's logic doesn't work quite with me to bowl around the wicket when he's swinging the ball out to a left-hander. You're trying to trap him in front. You're trying to hit that pad that's planted, and then that wobbly does to go across. So I don't know.

And also, I mean, if you look at today's player, in particular the way that New Zealand played, an India side, an Australia side, that they wouldn't have let that young attack bowl like they did. No, they wouldn't. You know, they'd have players that go out there particularly early and go, okay, you're on your debut, I'm going to hit you. I thought actually New Zealand just sat in almost like, oh, when you're going to bowl a bad ball? You know, when you're playing against a very inexperienced attack, which you've got two part-time spinners— no, Shaker picks up two at the end there— but I think a more proactive team would have gone at England a little bit harder today. Glenn Phillips came out, Blundell, straight away when Blundell actually arrived, it got Darren Mitchell playing a little bit better because he was a little bit more proactive, a bit busier, and you could see that Mitchell was starting to hit the ball. I think it's the kind of pitch that you can really be— it's not being ultra-aggressive, but you can put the bowler under a little bit more pressure. And I saw for half the day today, I thought New Zealand were quite pedestrian in terms of their mindset in trying to play the singles.

I think, as I said earlier, I think it's low on cricket, aren't they? And they had a nightmare experience at Lord's.

What about Joe Root's day as captain? You're out there at the toss, Jonathan, and you said to him, do you know how long you're going to be doing it for? And he said, not entirely.

Yeah.

Suggests that he's got some sort of inkling about what the future—

Well, look, I think it's all about Michael and Alistair could talk about that. And actually, I spoke to Nasser about it as well later, saying, look, if in Joe Root's position, before you accept this, do you ask the question, look, yeah, okay, I'll think about it, but how long do you want me to do it for? And I think you said, I think you said you would ask that question. And even in that, Nassir, interestingly enough, said, no, I'll just, yeah, I'll just do it. But I thought that that answer did suggest that he does know, but of course we don't know the answer to that, whether it's going to be short-term or long-term. I thought he actually had a really good day, captain. Yeah. Joe Root, when it is easy, our fresh memories of Root, or freshest memories of Root as captain, were very negative because the awful Ashes and then everything fell apart in the West Indies. So they're kind of the fresher images in your mind. Um, I just thought he was a bit more adventurous today, or enterprising. Very tight fields, he said. It's quite a lot of Stokes about that. Um, leg slip, two leg slips. I don't remember we saw England with that. I mean, it's just something a bit more proactive than I think he has been.

He's had the best seat in the house for 4 years watching Ben Stokes. Yeah. And he delivered a Ben Stokes-style captaincy performance.

I agree.

That's the best praise I can give him because I think Ben's a wonderful tactician. I think he makes things happen. I think he gets into the batters' heads with field settings. And I thought Joe Root— and I'm trying to think back to when he was captain, did he have days like I've just watched? I don't recollect many. I'm sure he did, but I don't recollect Joe the last time he was captain having such a proactive day as he has done today. And that was the Ben Stokes captaincy way today.

So I think he still stood there at slip thinking, oh, this is what I could have done actually.

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Yeah, he had a hard time. I mean, yeah, you know, he had Joe Root's captaincy career was, was, was sort of blighted with, with quite bad luck as well, wasn't it? I mean, you know, COVID and all that. It was quite a difficult time for him, I think. A lot of noise off. Um, but I know, I mean, Michael, I think, you know, that, that, that field and that really tight setting was, um, what Ben Stokes employed in Pakistan the first tour, wasn't it? We really put pressure on the, you know, the batsmen could only see fielders all around them. And I, I, I've not seen Root, um, captain like that before. And with such a young and inexperienced attack, I thought he handled it, he handled it really well.

So 291 for 7 at the close of play. I mean, where's the sort of balance of the game? Are England kind of quite a long way ahead, do you feel? Or it seems a strange thing to say when New Zealand, you know, might well get 350, say, in their first inning.

Well, you can't really say that until you've seen both teams bat on the same surface. I can't see the pitch deteriorating, so it's going to be a good pitch tomorrow. I look at the New Zealand attack and look at Nathan Smith, Matt Henry's pace, and I thought today when the paces were up— so Joffre Archer, Josh Tongue, Sonny Baker They look threatening. I think Matthew Fisher throughout the, the day when his pace is right, 80, 81, he didn't look as threatening as those that have got that extra bit of pace. So I'll be very interested to see how New Zealand's attack. I think O'Rourke's going to be a huge key, and I think O'Rourke's got it in him on any pitch to cause some damage. If he has an outing tomorrow with the ball, he could easily get a few wickets, and England could find themselves in trouble if they don't bat well. But on that pitch, which has got true bounce and you can just time the ball square of the wicket here at the Oval and it flies to the boundary. I'd be amazed if one of the England top 6 don't get a big 100 on that.

Runs for Roo tomorrow make things interesting, although he kept nicely today.

Well, he's done some miles behind the, behind the sticks because he's flying down the leg side. Yeah, he had a good day. I mean, he, he'll be disappointed with that flying one-hander, but it would have been an amazing catch if it had stuck. Um, yeah, he had a good day behind, even though there was a lot of extras. I don't think they were down to him.

No.

Primarily it was down to a lot of wide bowling and the odd kind of flick off the hip which didn't— down to a vacant fine leg. There were two kind of leg slips which was offering that nice and easy boundary. So, um, yeah, he had a good day. I thought all the debutants had a decent day. Jordan Cox took a nice catch at the end running back off Jacob Bethell. But, uh, we'll know more tomorrow night, Simon. We'll see how they bat.

We will indeed. Let's get some New Zealand, uh, reaction now. Let's join Dan Norcross again.

I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Tom Blundell, top scorer today for New Zealand with 51 in what were a curious taste cricket, I thought, Tom.

Yeah, I think if you look at the score, like 290 for 7, you know, you'll be somewhat happy. You know, if you take 2 wickets off that, you know, it probably would have been a really good day getting those 2 cheap wickets or losing those 2 cheap wickets at the end. But I thought GP and Daryl were able to build a a few partnerships along the way.

Did the pitch play exactly as you'd expected? Everyone comes here and bowls first, so you kind of lost the toss. You'd probably have wanted to win yourself, but did it play as you thought it would?

Yeah, I think we were pretty optimistic going into it, getting put in. You know, it's quite refreshing to come here and get on a good wicket, and you know, the previous Test wasn't a great one, but no, it was a nice batting track, and it felt like you could sort of go out and play your shots.

Well, it's South London, so the conditions The conditions are very different, of course, here. Talk us about the dismissal that wasn't, because you got a little flick down the lakeside and then you walked. So you got virtually all the way off the pitch before you were called back.

Yeah, I think as a keeper, you know, you sort of know if it's out, but I turned around and I thought he got it and I was like, "Oh, I just got to walk off." But then obviously the replay showed, you know, there's a little bit of ball touching the ground. So pretty fortunate.

A little bit about England's tactics with the ball. They went hard at the back end with the softer ball. Was that a sort of indicator that the pitch is quite lifeless?

I think, you know, the pace of it is still there. I think it's quick enough. You know, the way Joff came in and bowled towards the end, and I think he bowled pretty, you know, extended spell there and, you know, showed good energy. But I think it's a good batting track, and it's a wicket you can sort of play your shots. But I think if you put the ball in good areas, you can still bowl Oh, well, what are you guys thinking of as a roundabout par? I'm not sure. I think, you know, ideally, in an ideal world, 350 plus. You know, that's a little bit off. There's about 60 runs. So if we can get there, I think we'll be pretty happy.

And just finally, a little word on the way Glenn Phillips batted, because obviously it was quite tough early on. Ball was doing a little bit, ball was new. Glenn came in and took a very different approach. Was that sort of pre-planned, or was it just simply that's the way Glenn plays.

I think that's the way he sort of plays, you know. He's pretty box office, and you know, when I was out there with him, it was pretty entertaining. But he chose the way— that way to play, and he committed to that. So, you know, he's not out. So I hope he can come back tomorrow and get a few more.

Tom, thanks so much for joining us. Good luck tomorrow. Well batted today.

Cheers. Thank you.

Tom Blundell, who made 51 today, the first half century from a New Zealand player in this series. Though Phillips is on the verge of doing that. He is 49 not out and back for more tomorrow. So then when New Zealand are bowled out, England get batting. Just mentioned, you know, potential vulnerability in New Zealand attack about their, their paces, Michael, but they might look at that England batting line-up and say, you know, there's Gay, there's Bethell, there's Roo, there's Cox, and then there's quite a long tail, you know, there's some inexperience there as well. So that might just lift New Zealand spirits a bit.

Yeah, you know, Ben Duckett needs some runs at the top. He's an experienced player in this team. Then you've got obviously Emilio playing his second game. You got Jacob Bethell only into his first few games. He's not had a great deal of time in the middle. Joe Root didn't look so fluent at Lord's, and thought Harry Brook looked good. But you kind of look at that batting lineup from a New Zealand perspective, think, yeah, if you get 2 or 3 early ones, they can put them under pressure. But I just look at the pitch and that, the, the true nature of the bounce and the way that you can just time the ball at the Oval. And again, you, you wouldn't say to the team, look, you've got to get 400, but it's the kind of pitch that a batting unit you know, one or two should get in and you should be able to score 400. If they want to be a really quality side, even though they've got a lot of younger players, they're good young players, you know, if you want to be a good Test match side and, you know, on the back of what's happened in the winter, on the back of what you've had at Lord's, as a batter you've got to, you've got to know when it's in your favor. And I think tomorrow, I think it'll be more in the batting favor than it will be the bowling. You've got to make it count.

I'm really looking forward to tomorrow actually, to seeing how England do bat, you know, in, in good conditions. Lord's told us nothing. Um, let's see if Bethel can build on that, that brilliant 100 at Sydney. Harry Brook, you know, how's he going to play when England really do need a big score? You know, all those sorts of things, one or two unanswered questions, uh, hanging over from Australia. Cox and Root, I'm looking forward to seeing them. So actually, yeah, yeah, I'm really— it's a good day tomorrow. I look forward to it.

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