McCullum – I want to be challenged by KP.

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The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

We reflect on England's Test summer, maybe the summer as a whole, although there's still some stuff to go. Obviously, England have a T20 series Series against Sri Lanka coming up. So we'll hear from Brendan McCullum, who's been talking about Kevin Pietersen's new role. We'll also hear from Shepherd's Bush Cricket Club after they became national club champions. Stephen Finn, Phil Tufnell, and Michael Vaughan are with us. I mean, we'll get, we'll get on to where England are at the end of this summer, certainly Test-wise, in a moment. I do feel, I don't know what you think, Michael, that it has been from the ashes of the winter all the way through to now, I have found it a very confusing period for the sport, I'll be honest. And I've said this before, for a sport I love, I'm not sure how much I've really enjoyed the last 8 or 9 months, really.

Yeah, I mean, you could probably go back the last year. you know, the last Test against India at the Oval where England should have won that game. They should have won the series 3-1. And obviously Australia happened. It was a decent T20 World Cup. And then a bit of chaos at the start of the summer with a victory against New Zealand at Lord's. And obviously the incident with Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes. 5 new players the week after at the Oval. New Zealand started to play. The keeper stood up. Matt Henry got a few wickets. Well, he got plenty at the Oval. And then we went to— Trent Bridge and what happened on that fourth afternoon. Well, no one saw that coming. The Pakistan series England have played some decent cricket, but Pakistan have been so poor that I think after tonight, chappers, I don't think we'll talk about that series again, to be brutally honest. That's that's the honest truth. It's all about South Africa, the two tests in Bangladesh, and obviously the Ashes next summer. So I'm with you. I kind of sit back. I love cricket. I love all formats of the game, but This last few months, it's, it's been a bit chaotic. We feel there's a bit of sense coming back with the leadership group changing, but we'll have to wait and see because you can't judge an England side against a team like Pakistan.

Where are you with everything, Phil?

Well, I'm a little bit with you as well. I'm just going to throw into the mix the pitches that we played on as well, which were doing all sorts considering we had a really sort of nice hot summer. as well. Uh, I haven't seen a spinner. Uh, listen, there have been some plus points. We can see little building blocks being put in place. The 4 seamers look to have done a pretty decent job, um, you know, so that, you know, the wicketkeeping perhaps of, of Jamie Smith and Jordan Cox. And there are little things that you can pick out from it, but I'm with you, you know, it has just been sort of one of those summers. Well, and also another thing, yeah, we lost to New Zealand, which we shouldn't have as well, you know.

Yeah.

So you're right though, it's just been one of those summers that you sit back and go, right, where are we going to South Africa? Not really sure.

Yeah, so is it—

is this—

is this very much 3 confused middle-aged men, Finny, or are you, uh—

I mean, I take great offense at that, chappies, to be honest.

What, do you want to jump?

I'm 37, mate.

Yeah, no, no, no, I'm saying me, Phil, and Michael are the 3 confused middle-aged men. Are you going to bring some youthful, um, well, youthful-ish, um, excitement to it?

Oh no, I think it's just been weird, hasn't it?

Weird is that. I feel like there's nothing, I feel like there's nothing with which to anchor my opinion of where anything is at. That's, I suppose, what I feel.

Yeah, and the question marks, especially in that last Test match. I didn't cover this last game at Edgbaston. I was just watching from afar. But when England were put under pressure in that Test match, a few old cracks started to appear. So it kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it, what might have happened if we'd have had a more competitive second series of the summer. There are the building blocks there. I've loved seeing those 4 fast bowlers in unison bowling together. But, but then that begs the question, what happens when we play in Bangladesh? Or if we need a spinner in South Africa, what does the balance of that lineup look like? So Yeah, I think we leave the summer with just as many questions as we started, just very different ones.

So when Steven Fleming sort of takes over and he arrives in the next few days and he, you know, sits down, let's say he gets a sheet of paper and does, right, positives on one side and negatives on the other. What's top of his positives and what's top of his negatives, do you think, Steven?

Well, I think top of the positives is those 4 fast bowlers, the way that they've operated together, I think, has been really, really good to see. I think the emergence of Jordan Cox is, to me, when you watch players, you watch players and you think he looks like a Test cricketer. I watched Jordan Cox bat right from the very first Test match he played, even in that New Zealand series, the chaotic New Zealand series. And you watched him, you thought that he just looks like someone who is made to play Test cricket, whether that's at 3 or 6 or as a wicketkeeper, I don't know. But he looks as though he is ready to play in that first 11. So the 2 big ones for me from the summer are those 2 things.

Yeah, it's just a bit of a weird one, isn't it? I still could— I'm still concerned with the balance of the side. It's obviously that they want to go with this 4-seamer, and, you know, does Sam Curran then all of a sudden have a part to play that if they want to get a 4th? I mean, if I think if he hadn't been injured, I think Sam Curran might have come into that side. Um, so that begs the question of sort of like, was that a little bit of luck or was that sort of by design? We're not quite sure. I, I, I keep going on about it, but I just want to see a spinner. You never see a world-class side without a spin bowler. I agree with Finny about Jordan Cox. He was— we were in a little bit of a stuk there in that, in the last game.

Mm-hmm.

I think 2 for 2, 0 for 2 or something like that. And we've been crying out for people to Um, realize situations and bat accordingly. And he did exactly that. He tucked up against Mohammad Abbas, who was the threat. He played him nicely, played him straight, didn't try to, you know, throw too many punches back, and then got into it with Joe Root, and then got us over the line quite comfortably when there was a bit of a wobble. So yeah, there's a few things. Jamie Smith, as I said earlier, his keeping looks to have come on pretty well under Sarah Taylor. But I, I just think, I think Steven Fleming coming into this, he's in quite a good place. For a start off, they've, they've won a series, uh, 3-nil, which is great. Everyone's feeling up, everyone's feeling buoyant after a little bit of sort of like total chaos. And so he's got a good place to start, and then he can just start putting his little bits and pieces and his input into it.

What do you think, Michael, is his biggest positive and biggest negative? And then we'll get into stuff like batting lineup and spinner and so on and so forth?

Well, I think the biggest positive for me is it's just one player, and that's Ollie Robinson. You know, we were crying out in the winter in Australia for a tone setter. England didn't pick him. They didn't pick him last summer. You know, they'll say he wasn't quite up to fitness, but you go back to that Test match at Trent Bridge when the chaos happened on day 4. Ollie Robinson was fit that week, and England opted to go without him. You know, because they felt the conditions were a little bit too flat. I think they've got to look beyond that. He's a wonderful bowler. You know, his record now speaks for itself. His record clear in the UK is exceptional. We haven't seen a great deal of him overseas. We've seen him in Pakistan and he did a decent job there. I think he is the linchpin of this attack. I mean, the other 3 have a bit more pace. You've got the difference of Josh Tong in his action. You've got Joffre who can get it around 90. Obviously, Gus Atkinson's been around for a few years now. ball's a bit skiddier, but I think the tone of Ollie Robinson at the start of an innings is going to be so important. I mean, I just— we were talking on Test Match Special a few days ago with Simon Mananagas. Throughout the winter, it was all short and wide, Travis Head off to a flying start. That was pretty much in every Test match. So I think Ollie Robinson. I mean, Jordan Cox, I agree, looks an international quality player. I'm sure he'll be around for a long period of time because he's got the class and he He's a bit of a utility player, can play in different positions, but I think he should stay at number 3. He's earned the right to stay there just at the start of the South Africa series. But I just think Ollie Robinson is the standout. He has been absolutely exceptional for England throughout the summer.

Yeah, and I'll tell you something, chappers, that then, that's a positive. You haven't got to play— you haven't got to bowl 90 miles an hour. You can be a very skillful bowler and a very skillful batter. You haven't got to throw punches with the bat and knock people's heads off with the ball. I can just see a little bit of sense coming back to cricket, and especially this England side, that you can use your skill. And I think that then translates through county cricket. So I think there's a big positive for county cricketers from this summer.

Yeah, I mean, I— you go back over the year, um, you know, Scott Bowlen in Australia bowled about 82-83, uh, Matt Henry for New Zealand around 82-83, Nathan Smith for New Zealand 80 miles an hour, Mohammad Abbas 78 miles an hour. Now, Ollie Robinson bowling near on 80 miles an hour consistently, if that. So, um, I do think we talk about the balls. Finney's well more qualified than me to talk about the ball, but they look like they're doing it a little bit more than we've seen in previous summers. Um, but it's that consistency. I know as a batter, if you're being asked to press forward and play a forward defense on a regular basis, uh, I'm vulnerable because all dismissals come into play as soon as the ball comes down at a decent lick. and there's a bit of width on offer, you can just throw your bat at the ball and the ball flies to all parts. So that consistency level which Ollie Robinson has brought this summer, Mohammad Abrast has brought, Matt Henry's brought, Nathan Smith's brought with the keeper stood up, it's a real threat in Test match cricket. Another positive with Joe Root being there at the end getting knocked out, because I was watching him, particularly when he got LBW in the first innings, I thought, oh no, the gremlins will start to come in. The skipper's got LBW 8 or 9 times in his last 11 innings, and that not out for Joe Root will do him the world of good going into South Africa in the winter.

Mike, can I just ask you a quick question? Well, you know, those 70 sort of 8-mile-an-hour, 80-mile-an-hour bowlers with the keeper stood up and everything, they were the bowlers that I kind of liked. What's changed? I can't understand it.

Okay, are we using you as a batsman as a barometer here. Okay.

I'll tell you what it is, and I know where you're coming from, and I don't know if Finny's in the same boat, but I think he might. You know that if it's coming down at 90 miles an hour, you can get hurt. Yes. So you feel— you're feeling threatened of getting— I didn't fear getting hurt, but I wanted pace because I could deflect pace against 78 miles an hour, real consistent line and length bowling. I know I can get out to that, and I can get LBW, I can get out bowled, I can get out caught behind, or I can play a bad shot or make a mistake and get myself out. When you're facing people that are bowling really quick, only now and again do you get jaffers. Only now and again do you get absolute jaffers, and you can deflect the ball. Of course they can get you at any stage, but I just think these, these wobble seam bowlers, they challenge your forward press and bring in all the dismissals. And most top order players, they fear getting out rather than fear getting hurt.

Oh!

You're in the other tank, Tuffers. You just fear getting hurt.

Well, to be honest, I'm with him on that. I'm with him on that. Maybe that's where I was going wrong all those years. I was worried about getting hurt. Finny, were you worried about getting hurt?

Always. Yeah, that's my number one main concern.

You're the odd one, Michael. God.

Yes.

I've hit the ball in the air and asked for it to be caught before when someone was bowling quick. So it's never pleasant when you're batting down the order against against those guys who are quick. I think just one more point on Robinson as well is he controls everything. He just doesn't bowl bad balls. You watch a spell and he doesn't get creamed through the foot, through the covers for 4. Doesn't bowl big horrible clip balls and release pressure. So there's always pressure when he's bowling, and that helps you as a bowler at the other end. I love bowling with bowlers who created pressure at one end because it meant that then the batter might like to take more risks at the other. So the way that they've complemented each other, led by Robinson in particular year has been excellent and something that Fleming should grab hold of until they got onto spinning pitches. Then I don't know what they do.

Yeah, he's getting his wickets at 8, isn't he? I mean, it's just—

and the thing is, I did hear someone say that, you know, there's 20 bowlers in county cricket that could have done a similar thing. That's absolute nonsense. Yeah, it really is, because he is world-class, you know. He really is. Those numbers don't lie. And he's, he's now got over 100 wickets at under 20 apiece. I'm sorry, when you're getting 100 wickets in Test match cricket, you don't get them by Default. You don't get them by being fortunate. You might get 20 to 30 wickets by being a little bit fortunate, but once you start getting over 100 Test match wickets and you're averaging under 20, you're a serious bowler.

It's, um, yeah, 104 wickets at an average of 19.25 this summer, 28 wickets at an average of 9.32. I'll come back to conditions, I'll come back to conditions in just a moment. But if you, if you look at Cricviz, and this is the— these stats may be geeky, but it shows what's happening out there.

Go on.

So this summer saw more seam movement of 0.9 degrees per ball than last year. Yeah, but it all counts. And the average speed of a wicket-taking ball was nearly 2 miles an hour slower than last year. So as a bowling geek, Finny, when you hear that, what, what, what is that telling you? Is that telling you something about the ball, the pitches, Batsmen not being particularly good this summer, a bit of everything. What would you focus on?

I think a bit of everything, though we've clearly had a couple of very poor pitches, haven't we, where the ball has done loads and kept low, which clearly stacks the odds in your favor for those numbers as a bowler. But I think what I haven't seen much of this year is balls being changed. Usually in a Test match, you'll see the umpire come out with his ball bag and he's got his— the new ones in there. And, and the replacement balls, he brings those out in order to swap the ball when it goes soft, when it goes out of shape, when it's got like the triangular corner on it, when you're looking at it thinking that's out of shape, it doesn't go through the umpire's hoop. And, and, and yeah, they, they bring new balls out too. But we haven't seen that at all this summer. And that's strange, which says to me that the ball is, is remaining harder for longer, which then once it Once it stays harder for longer and that seam stays harder for longer, the movement off the pitch is more exaggerated and it does it for longer in the innings. So yeah, I think that a combination of those things and also just the, the skill of those wobble seam bowlers with the keeper up to the stumps pinning the batters back in the crease, not allowing them to get out to the ball in order to get outside the line for LBWs or to be able to negate that movement. On the front foot, I think a combination of all of those all of those things is is what has caused the bowlers to be in the absolute ascendancy this year.

Can I just say well done, Stephen? Well done. You got through the hard despite despite the childish.

Did I just get a chance?

Did I just? I don't. Do you know what? Michael, it's a suit.

It's a suitcase, not a ball.

Right.

No. I realized that as I said. It's because when you practice, you use bags instead of suitcases. But as I said, it was yeah.

But you did.

Very well. No, you did very well because there was a lot of childish giggling and and you made your point and got through it.

I tell you something also as well, and and you're very well done. What I was going to say also as well is I think that the batting as well, the technique, as he said, keepers stood up and seems to have just changed the game. Listen, it used to happen all the time, not that long ago, but I think that the batters have struggled with that. Particular technique, and I think that it's found, you know, top-class batters a little bit wanting. I think they're going to go— I mean, look, as you say, we mentioned Joe Root, England's finest. He's struggled with it as well, and it's just this little slight difference in tactics and what have you, and it's just thrown them a little bit. I think it's going to take them a bit of time just to get a handle on it.

Yeah, I mean, if you look, 6 Test matches in the summer, we've had 1 century.

Yeah.

And that's from Ben Duckett against New Zealand at Trenbridge. But you can't tell me against Pakistan, all those players that got to 60 and 70, that they were outdone by the pitch. They were done because they weren't ruthless enough to go and get the big hundred themselves. And that's one of the problems going forward, is that this batting lineup is very dangerous, it's very talented, but until they earn the right to go and get the big scores— and how do you do that? You have to go through a few tough times. You can't just throw your hands at everything. You can't just think that you're in when you're on 60 and 70. And you look at a lot of the dismissals around 60, 70. I think Harry Brook got to 91 headingly against Pakistan. They were batters' errors. There weren't many jaffas around that time. And that's just individuals taking the responsibility to go on and get the big scores. Because to beat South Africa in South Africa, I can't see them beating South Africa without players getting hundreds. You know, individuals will have to get hundreds the same next year against Australia. So they've got to train the brain pretty soon to make sure this batting lineup maximizes their potential without just giving it away after 60 or 70 runs.

Vonnie, what is it about good players struggling with the keeper standing up? Because clearly Joe Root's been pinned quite a number of times LBW. Like, why is it so hard for really, really outstandingly good players to adjust to something that's so simple?

Um, I'll be honest with you, I probably faced David Masters and maybe Dimi Mascarenhas for Hampshire with the keeper stood up.

Yeah.

And I used to just try and bat a bit leg side to make sure I was playing with the bat. And if they beat me on the outside edge, well, I just think, okay, I can snick it to the keeper or to the cordon. I think a lot of these players are covering their outside edge, so that nip back becomes the real threat. Joe Root in his last innings, where he got 60-odd, and Mohammad Abbas bowled an 8-over spell, and I don't recollect seeing Joe Root getting hit on the pads once. He just went a little bit more leg side. He played some nice forward defense shots.

Yeah.

He didn't score freely against Mohammad Abbas because he didn't bowl many bad balls, but he never really looked like he was going to get out, and the ball was still nipping. You know, he played and missed it a few balls, so he got beaten on the outside edge. He got a little bit fortunate where he snipped one through the cordon. If it had been taken, he would have had a few budgies because He's covered his LBW and now he's nicked one just outside off stump. And it'd have been, oh, do I cover for that or do I cover for the LBW in South Africa? I think it's as easy as that, and it's not easy obviously, but Joe Root's worked away by going a bit more leg side. And I honestly think that's what most players will start to do to cover that nip backer, because the nip backer brings in LBW, it brings in bold. And if you get done by one that kind of nips on off stump and nips away from you— You know, that's a decent cherry. So I would be covering the LBW and the balls because that's been the major threat.

Is it?

Mike, Mike, sorry, what are budgies? I've never heard of that.

Well, you've got plenty of them, let me tell you that.

What are they? Notes? Budgies?

Well, you just didn't— you know, when they put you around your head, you know.

Is it? Is it? Thank God it was that. If it's a— if it's Is it a fad, Michael, do you think? Is it— Stuart Broad's been vocal about he doesn't want to see it in the Ashes next summer. So is it, is it a fad, or do you think it will become a valid weapon for a bowling attack?

I think it's absolutely a valid weapon, and I don't understand why Stuart wouldn't want to see it, because I, I find it intriguing. I really do. I mean, I love quick bowling. I love the bounces. I love A bit of chin music. I love how players can cope with that. This is a different skill that's arrived in the game, and I think it's really questioning a lot of technical players. And you know, we've said for a few years how many players have actually got a solid forward defense? There's not many. Not many in the whole game around the world have got a solid forward defense. Well, this tactic requires you to have one. So I love it. I think we'll see a lot of it in the Ashes. I think Australia will certainly be looking at England's batting lineup as. Will the likes of Ollie Robinson look at Australia's batting lineup? Because Steve Smith, Travie said, they're key players. I think you can get them with the keeper stood up challenging their forward press. And I think Michael Neeson, Scott Boland will certainly be doing the same to the likes of Joe Root, Harry Brook and co. So I think it's great for the game that there's a new kind of tactic, a new piece of skill that's been delivered. It's now up to the batters to try and come up with an answer or two.

Yeah, it's not the first time that it's happened. I mean, you go back into the day, I mean, we were talking to Bumble, weren't we? Was it Ken Shackleton or, you know, you know, I come in a little bit before my time, and Ballick, Bedsa, they used to trundle up and, you know, hit the top of off stump ball after ball with the keeper stood up. So it's not something that's new that's happened, it's just something that, that's re-emerged as, as a tactic. And the other thing about that is that, um, you've now Got to have a bona fide wicketkeeper, you know, you've got to have a wicketkeeper. And I love watching that. I mean, some of them, some of the skills that have been on show, and we mentioned Jordan Cox and Jamie Smith, they're, they're getting better at it now. But, you know, you see that skill on show standing up to 80 miles an hour. It's, uh, I, I think it's great. I think it's good for the game.

Well, I think Jamie Smith actually showed a lot of resolve this year to come off the back of the way the Ashes went for him, to then be asked to stand up to the stumps in tricky conditions and do it without any— I can't really remember any periods where he was dropping them or looked uncomfortable. And that's something that I think for him to have done that off the back of the way that the winter went was— has been really impressive. He rediscovered his batting form as well. It felt as though he was more imposing again. As a batter and making good decisions. So I think he's had a good summer on the whole, headlined by that wicketkeeping up to the stumps that Tuff has referenced there.

Yeah, I think you're right, Finny. I'll put, you know, I mentioned Ollie Robinson being the real plus, but I will say Jamie Smith's keeping because every morning I've seen him on that field with Sarah Taylor catching tennis ball after tennis ball, doing loads of drills. It reminds me of Matt Prior back in the day when he worked with Bruce French and he was out there getting down and dirty. Alex Carey in the winter. We were crying out for some drills in the winter. Just the England team looked like they were practicing before play. Well, it was a little bit, it was a little bit clubby for most of the winter, and we didn't see Jamie Smith do these drills. He's come out this summer, he's worked hard, and his keeping's been up there. I mean, Alex Carey, you could argue, was the standout in terms of his skill, what he delivered in the Ashes. Well, I think Jamie Smith's done it equally as well this summer, so he deserves a lot of credit, as does Sarah Taylor for the work she's put in.

Does it feel to you, Steven, as though it is a I know I appreciate Phil's point that nothing is new, but does it feel like in a game that for many, many years bat has dominated ball and bat has had different techniques and new shots and this, that, and the other, that this is something where bowlers can fight back a bit?

Well, yeah, it makes me want to dust my bowling boots off every now and again when I saw a couple of those pitches at Lord's.

And trundle in. Yeah. No, not pace, trundle.

Yeah. I just think it's fascinating how— and, and this is why I love Test cricket, is because it just throws so many different weird things at you. 18 months ago, would you have thought that we'd be sat here on a phone and talking about the wicketkeeper standing up to the stumps to 80-mile-an-hour bowling?

No.

But it throws these, these amazing challenges at you as a player. It questions your intuition as someone watching it, because you're, you're there watching it, having played Test cricket, thinking Exactly what Stuart Broad's saying, this doesn't feel like Test cricket with the keeper stood up to the stumps, but it evolves, it changes, it goes through periods in different directions. So yeah, it's— I don't think it's a fad. I think that as long as the pitches are behaving as they are and batters' techniques are as they are, as bowlers you work out how to take wickets, and at the moment it seems to be the premier way to take wickets in the Test format, especially in the UK.

And also, it, it, a balanced attack. That is what cricket has really been about, you know what I mean? It's been about, you know, a chap that can do that. You want your 90 miles an hour, and we've talked about, um, you know, the pluses. England seem to have that a little bit now. I'm a little bit, you know, I wouldn't mind, but they can swing it as well. They could, they all can swing it a little bit. But, um, the real challenge is those flat pitches and better teams. Can Ollie Robinson do that? when not much is happening on a hot day in South Africa.

Well, Phil, all I'll say to that is on the, on the 3rd day where Razzaullah, who was exceptional on his debut for Pakistan, started to smoke it to all parts with Mohammad Abbas, if you look at the figures that day, Ollie Robinson still had tremendous figures. Yeah, you know, was he 2 for 40, whereas the rest were going at 5.5 sixes? So I think what he'll offer, even when he's not probably Charging through the top order or the middle order. Control. I think he's going to offer you control. And you ask any captain, what do you want? It's control. And sometimes control comes from your spinner. Sometimes your control comes from your medium quicks. And I think that's what the tactic will bring, is a control element to the captaincy. I'll be intrigued to see when you start talking about selection now. You generally just pick your best bowlers, don't you? You kind of work out who they are. I think you've now got to start thinking, if Ollie Robinson's not in the team, who's going to be the Ollie Robinson? Because you're going to need that tactic covered. There's no point in picking another 90-mile-an-hour, 87-mile-an-hour bowler because, you know, Jamie Smith's not going to be able to come up. And there will be times in South Africa— I mean, the ball will probably bounce a bit more, so it might not work as effectively as it has done here— but there's going to be times in South Africa where that tactic is going to work again. So when you start picking your side, you know, for Ollie Robinson missing out, will it be Sam Cooke? Will it be Matthew Fisher? George Hill from from Yorkshire's having another stellar season. His style of bowling now comes into the equation because he bowls with the keeper stood up. He gets a bit of wobble. See, I'm not saying he's going to go to South Africa, but that style of bowler all of a sudden probably running in with a little bit more more glee knowing that they've got a chance of playing Test match cricket. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio Five Live.

Going back to sort of how we started this bit with talking about what Fleming's to-do list was and positives and negatives, what is the balance of this team for South Africa? What are you doing about the spinner? What is your top 7? Because the bowling attack, the pace side of the bowling attack, as we've all spoken about, kind of at the moment takes care of itself, but there are so many questions around those other areas, partly due to balance and partly through who's missing through injury and how you rejig it, aren't there?

Yeah, well, they, they need a spinner who can bat. They need a spinner who can bat. I think nowadays, especially in Test match cricket, I'm loath to say it, but I don't think that you can have a spinner who's not great in the field and can't bat perhaps 7 or 8, and that's what they're desperately looking for. Um, and then all of a sudden the all-rounder comes into it. Do you, do you get the spinner in by perhaps playing, uh, Curran? That they've at the moment sort of like gone a little bit with, uh, Dan Lawrence, haven't they? And yeah, you know, they're trying to sort of make him into a bit of a bits and pieces. And perhaps then you've got, um, you know, a bit of Joe and Ben if he plays and what have you, but I find I'm slightly concerned about the whole spinner angle actually because it's not seeming to be addressed, you know, you keep seeing Bashir on the team sheet at all these Test matches and you kind of know full well that he's not going to get a go, you know, he can't even get in the Metro Bank side for Derby, you know, or something or whatever I think that the stat was knocking about, so I am concerned about that, um, because Bangladesh coming up, they might play 2, they might even play 3 spinners, you know, and, and you've got to be able to nowadays. It's become a little bit like the keeper's spot, you know, you've got to be able to get yourself in there and, you know, and bat nicely and field nicely nowadays. So Mike, what do you think? You're a skip.

Oh, I, I, I think South Africa is quite an easy one. I don't think you're going to need a spinner, uh, like the focal point of your attack. I'd go with the same Formula that we've had throughout the summer. I think the Centurion ground and the Wanderers will be very seamer friendly, so you'll need your four quicks, and Dan Lawrence will be fine at number six. You know, I guess the the big if will be does Jacob Bethel come straight back into the side? I personally don't think he should. I think Jordan Cox has earned the right, and Jacob will need a bit of cricket. If he has a load of cricket and is in great form, of course you have that conversation. when that comes around in December. But I don't know how much cricket he will have had by then. Bangladesh is a different story because you're going to need spin. Look, Cape Town, now and again you can get spinners into the game. But I think the 3 Test matches in South Africa, I think this formula will be fine. The 2 Test matches in Bangladesh, I think you've got to take what you believe is your best spinner. Marcus North recently came out and said that Shoaib Bashir is still England's number 1 spinner. I totally disagree. I think Jack Leach is England's number one spinner by distance. You look at what he does for Somerset on a regular basis. Yes, he's left-arm, but if you've got spinning wickets in Bangladesh, I want someone that's just going to land it on a length because the pitch does the rest for you. And Jack Leach is that bowler for England. And if we start talking about sense in the England team, and I believe there is a little bit more sense in terms of the way that they operate and the way that they select teams, you just pick your best spinners. You know, someone like Dom Best, you look at what Dom Best is doing.

Yeah.

28 years of age. 4 or 5 years ago, he didn't look look ready at all. He had a little bit of a spell in the England side. I think he's a better cricketer now, a lot better than when they picked him in the first side. So I don't think you should be ruling out people like Dom Bairstow, certainly not Jack Leach. Um, and I personally would pick them over Shoaib Bashir because I just don't think Shoaib's done quite enough. He's played a bit for Derbyshire, and what, what harm is it going to do to Shoaib Bashir if he went to South Africa, didn't play any cricket, and then you throw him into a couple of Tests in Bangladesh? Why not get him some cricket? You know, try and get him some cricket so he's bowling, so then he puts himself in a position to potentially play or go to Bangladesh. But as we sit here now, if you ask me who are the best spinners in England to go to play in Bangladesh to win that Test series, I personally wouldn't have Shoaib Bashir near that party.

Steven?

Yeah, when I think about the balance of the team and like how you fit all these players, it's like a Rubik's Cube where there's one square out on each side and you kind of, you turn it over, you think, well, I've cracked it. Oh, but we're short in this area. It always feels like because of that lack of a front, frontline spinner that's nailed on to be in the 11, like a Graeme Swann, who was, he was a one in a million, wasn't he really, for England? It feels like you're always trying to hedge your bets or cover yourself elsewhere. I wonder if, I don't think they'll do it in South Africa, but if they do find themselves on a pitch where you need a spinner, not in Bangladesh, but in South Africa, they find themselves on a dry wicket like Durban that can be good for seamers but then spins later on— Moeen Ali got wickets there when we won in 2016— whether they might look to play with 3 seamers and a spinner as their 4 bowlers. When I played for England, we played as a 4-man attack the entire time. It was me, Broad, Anderson, and Swan.

Yeah.

I wonder whether with the control that Robinson gives you within that unit, Whether they might think about balancing the side that way without feeling as though they're having to cut short elsewhere.

Who's your spinner going to be?

Well, I personally, I went for the selector job, didn't I? I was interviewed for the selector job and Jack Leach was my number one spinner when I was asked my Test team because I agree with you. I think that he is experienced. I think that he's had ups and downs, but he He has been a consistent performer for a long time, and the numbers back that up in the domestic in the domestic system as well, don't they? So yeah, and if you were looking for a bowler to a finger spinner to bowl someone out on the last day, Leach would probably be your go-to in in in England, I think.

Yeah, I mean, this isn't having a go at Shoaib. I think he's done pretty well, but I mean, we we were saying it the other day. this has been one of the hottest summers we've had on record, hasn't it?

Yeah.

You know, and, you know, you, you're not going to get any drier pitches than the ones that were here, and the spinner didn't even come into the equation. So, you know, you start thinking, well, is this a bit of a dying art? You know, unless that leggy comes on or that mystery bowler who can whop it at 7 and 8, I just don't know. Um, I don't know how a spinner sort of gets into the side unless it's It is a Bangladesh series, which you almost then complete— it's a completely different kettle of fish.

Yeah, it's like you're gonna play a completely different formation in Bangladesh. So, you know, that's not going to affect the Ashes series because it's completely different conditions, but it's just making sensible decisions and picking experienced players to make sure that you're going there. All right, they'll save the picture over here. We're going there to win, and that's his opportunity because the ball is going to be spinning. I just see him as a young player that needs a lot more cricket, and I think it'll serve this cricket better if they just took him out of the system just for a while so he could go on the lines, he could get loads of bowling, play a few games of cricket, play a bit more for Derbyshire. I'd love to see him play the whole season for Derby, you know, just play the whole season, see how many wickets he got, play another season. And look, he's only— what is he, 22? Yeah, yeah, we're talking about— yeah, Graeme Swann didn't come into his own until he was 27, 28. You know, that's when he started to play for England. So finger spinners and spinners in general, they generally take a little bit of warming up. You don't need to rush them.

And I completely agree. And I think that's when you look at it as someone who liked to bowl and felt as though I got better when I bowled. Spin bowling is an art, right? Being able to vary your pace with the same arm speed is an art. And to allow Bashir the space to be able to explore that out of the spotlight and learn that craft out of the spotlight without people having these conversations as we are now. I think it was a great opportunity for them this summer for us to be sat here now saying, wow, look at how much Bashir has developed. Look at what he has done in the domestic game to begin banging the door down to be able to learn that craft that is spin bowling. I mean, tough as it— it's art, right? Learning how to vary your pace with that same arm speed. You can't just do it on the job.

No, absolutely. And it's just about, uh, being happy with yourself, knowing where you are at your game, and that experience of having to bowl in different conditions, in, and, and different situations. It's the whole raft of things. No disrespect, Finny, but you know, you used to run in, try and knock the reds off, and that was where it finished a little bit, wasn't it?

But, uh, you know, no disrespect.

No, you know what I mean. You know, there is so much more to sort of just being young and fit and 21 and being able to steam in and bowl aggressively. You know, there's— you know, I wasn't being rude there, Steve. You know, it's a bit like, uh, you know, it— there's a lot more that then goes on in your brain, and you have to have that body of work behind you. And I completely agree with you, Steve, it is one of the difficult things to do at Test match cricket. To learn your craft at Test match cricket is very, very tough. You know, and especially for a spin bowler.

And particularly in recent times within an England group that just don't bat long enough for the pitches to wear. Yeah, you know, you know, Phil, don't you? As a spinner, you want your bats to bat for so much time so, you know, the footholds start to develop. This Test game is played at fast forward. So I think it's the least amount of spin overs in the UK since— what did Salt say? Tough as it's going back many generations, there's just no spin being bowled this summer, and that's a shame. I mean, I hope— look, the one thing I'll agree with Stuart Broad is that if the keeper stood up tactics replaces spin in Test cricket, I'm going to be very disappointed.

Oh, well, there you go. So you're saying Ollie Robinson could be the spinner of the summer?

He kind of is, isn't he? He's your holding end bowler. Yeah, when conditions get a little bit flat, you know, there's no spin out there against these players these days that just reverse sweep and do all the tricks, bop it out the ground. I think as a captain, if I'm trying to gather some control, I'd probably trust Ollie Robinson with the keeper stood up to bowl a few more dots than a tweaky fingerspinner like yourself, Phil.

You know what, I think you might be right, Mark.

You know when you talk about that, you know, you talk about that interview for the selectors Just going back to what you said there. Do you, when they ask you what your Test team will be, do you have to, do you think they're looking for you to think outside the box at all? And so a, not a random name, but maybe somebody a little bit different comes into your Test 11. What do you think they're looking for when they ask you that question?

I don't know, whatever I didn't do, I suppose.

But when you think about it, do you think, oh, maybe, maybe I should put, you know, somebody slightly different in there to show them X or Y?

Well, I suppose that they're kind of looking for you to have a method of the way that you would select players, whether that's using your eyes or statistics. I think it was an opportunity in that to kind of suggest to them what your style would be and how would you— how you would go about looking at players that you think are of an international standard. I, I think that you can see an international player when you see them play for the very first time. They look, they look calm, they look assured, they look confident with what they're doing. There's a certain way they move their body when they're either batting or bowling or fielding that you watch them, you think that that's an international player that's ready for immediate selection. But then also, I think behind that and the layers underneath that is who is the next cab off the rank. You've got your, you know, 8 or 9 guys who are set in stone to be in that team. It's then working out the gaps or the people that might have slipped through the net to then work out who are the next people that could potentially be those international players. Yeah, so I think there are many different layers to it.

And I think this is where Stephen Fleming's going to be very good You know, very you know thoughtful. You know, captain himself. He'll he'll be great for this England side. I think I think he's going to be. He can be tough when he when he wants to be. But I think that he'll you know you know like this Bangladesh team coming up. You know what I mean? You know, perhaps in the past, you know, the four seamers would have all taken the wickets and everything, and they would have all got on the all got on the. plane to Bangladesh, and perhaps 3 out of the 4 would have played, you know, and Bangladesh would have played 4, and we're all sitting there scratching our heads going, well, hold on, that don't seem right, you know what I mean? But I think that Stephen Fleming will come in, and I think he'll be very good at pinpointing all these different little things that Finny was just saying.

Let's hear from Brendan McCullum then, where of course this is the first series that Kevin Pietersen will be in his new role as A specialist mentor. So here is McCollum on how that all came about.

Yeah, I rang Kev and said, do you want to come and help us challenge for a World Cup? And I think he was a bit shocked initially. And then over a couple of different conversations and catch-ups, obviously appreciative of how busy he is and, and how many opportunities he has in other walks of life out there. So I knew that it would be a bit of a stretch in terms of trying to get him to to us for the entire time. But look, he came back unbelievably enthusiastic and positive, and the energy he's brought to the group already has been immense. And, you know, I feel very privileged for us to be able to have him as a resource within our dressing room. He was obviously a brilliant cricketer. He viewed the game quite differently. He was a winner, and he was a guy who left no stone unturned when it came to his preparation. And, you know, I think for us, we're very lucky to have him as part of our support And a lot of these guys grew up watching Kev play and idolized him. So as a coach, you're trying to provide these guys with the best environment so that they can try and achieve what they want, and adding Kev is certainly that.

He's somebody that has been somewhat critical of certain methods in the past.

Have you managed to put that behind you, you two?

I have no problem with that. I think that was one of the first things we talked about. He said, you know, so I was just— I was criticizing you a lot not long ago. I said, I don't care about that. So it's Some of it's fair and some of it, you know, would need some explanation, but I have no problem with that. I think it's healthy when you create an environment where you're able to challenge. As long as you're always trying to think of what's right for the team and trying to help the team to achieve what you want, then there's no problem having that kind of challenging. In fact, I actually mentioned to him, I said that's one thing I want him to do is not just bury himself in the batting per se, but look across the entire Look across how we run things and what we do. And if there's anything you pick up, then, then just come and challenge me on it. And, you know, him and I get on well. We had natural respect playing against each other and we spent a bit of time together in the last little while. And I'm super excited to have him as part of our support staff as well.

And speaking of how it's all going to work, what about Stephen Fleming, that relationship? And particularly when you look at the workload of players next year, 2 huge events in the Ashes and the World Cup.

How is it all going to work?

Yeah, well, firstly, I'm really excited for Flem to take over the Test side as well. He's obviously— he's one of my best mates. We talk regularly. He's just like me but better, and he'll do an amazing job. He's the right person to be able to take that team forward, and I'm delighted for the guys in the Test side that they get the opportunity to have Flem as their coach because he's a He's a great man, but he's also an incredible coach and a great tactician as well. Very well planned, very meticulous, and he likes to create environments which allow guys to succeed and ultimately win. I think from our point of view, we've been already— we've been chatting around, you know, how we're going to try and manage some of the workloads of players and make sure we've still got our best players available for the big series. And that'll be an ongoing conversation. We'll sit down in the coming days and map map out a bit of a pathway for a few guys. But naturally, guys can't play all year round. You're gonna have to work out times that you can take them out of the physical duties of international cricket, freshen up, and then other times that you have them all ready to go. But they'll be easy conversations between 2 good mates with the motivation of what's right for English cricket.

What do you want to get out of 3 T20 matches with Sri Lanka? In the middle of September, Michael.

Three wins, simple as that. I mean, the Lions team absolutely pasted them at Chelmsford on Friday night. Sri Lanka in the middle of September, it's a bit chilly. I can't imagine that they're going to be really enjoying the conditions. Oh, it's just winning. And Erin Donald's going to make his debut, so great opportunity for him. I guess you're just looking at the talent pool growing, and if Donald can strike, he's a player that struck it over 200 in the Blast. this season, so he's in fine form. So I like that selection. I think it's good to pick players when they're full of confidence, but ultimately it's just winning 3 games. Just win the 3 games and obviously win the 50-over stuff as well and try and— I guess it's the split coaching of Fleming and McCullum is always going to be on watch because it's never really worked that well, you know, across many teams. So it's always going to be— You know, who's getting the kind of players and how they're going to communicate and how they're going to make sure that they're managing the players' workload going forward. But I would expect England to win all the games. I can't see Sri Lanka giving them too much of a game in these conditions.

Maybe, and maybe it is, Stephen, going back to what you talked about with, with when putting selection together. And from what Michael said there, it's also about finding who those next cabs off the rank are if they're needed.

Yeah, Donald's someone that I'm really excited about watching actually, because you, you look at the power at the top of the order for England. If anything, he enhances that with the way that he plays. He hits it in quirky areas. Um, so yeah, but fascinated to see how he does and really hope that he takes his opportunity. And then the, the Kevin Pietersen effect, how he is going to fit into that environment, is probably the, um, the undertone to this, um, To this series, I think I like the move. I actually think that it's a really good thing, and the way that McCullum spoke about it there about wanting to be challenged. I think if you were to critique the or one of the critiques of the test team over the last few years was that you could say it's been an echo chamber or has seemed to be an echo chamber from the outside looking in, where you're positively reinforced all the time. Kevin won't do that. I played a lot with Kev. At the beginning of my career, and he was never shy in coming forward if he didn't think something was being done correctly, whether that was practice or whether that was in, in preparation to play or decision-making out in the middle. And it sounds like McCollum is encouraging him to, to do that role in this environment as well, as a mentor or a coach, which I think at a stage where the team is number one in the world and they're doing well, it'd be really easy For them to say we've cracked it, we've sussed it, and that might be how they felt after two years of playing test cricket together. I think McCullum may have learnt from his mistakes with that test team to say that now when things are going well is a really good time to introduce that kind of influence to the dressing room to make sure we're still moving forward. So I'm all for him.

Tough as you were nodding along.

No, no, great, great, great shout. As you said, I think I mean Brendan's just speaks. well, doesn't he? You know what I mean? He, he just comes across fabulously. Um, yeah, I'm for KP. And what you, what you did there, say that there though, Stevie, was, um, sort of, you know, and the underlying thing is Kevin Peterson. Well, he's a, he's a mentor. There is an opportunity that he might become sort of too big for the team, if you know what I mean. They've got some very, very high-profile profile coaches there, haven't they, you know? And, you know, I, I, I make you right, but that's the only little sort of, sort of granular sort of stuff that I might just be scratching my head saying, oh, okay, let's just see how that goes. But I, I think you're right. I think that Brendan has learned from his mistakes, and I think that that kind of person, Micah Peterson, just there to pull everyone up a little bit, so long as it doesn't get too sort of like chaotic, I think it's a good appointment.

For the final few minutes of Five Live Cricket, we're going to talk about club cricket, more specifically Shepherd's Bush Cricket Club, who yesterday became ECB National Club Champions. Here's the moment they hit the winning runs. And if you've seen it across social media, we haven't embellished the sound effects there. There are hundreds of people who run on, uh, when the winning runs are hit. Luke Matthews was at the crease at the time. Evening, Luke.

Evening, gents. Thanks for having me on.

No, thank you very much for coming on. Those scenes at the end, I mean, apart from the fact it looks like you're playing in November, the scenes are Phenomenal.

The Bush Army. They don't travel lightly. They don't, they don't go quietly. Yeah, it was great fun. It takes me back listening to that.

Um, how many people, how many people were in the Bush Army then, do you think?

I would say 250 traveling away, which is, um, a great turnout for, for a fairly small club, which was brilliant.

How does, how does that affect you Playing because I'm guessing you're not getting that many on a weekly basis.

No, no. We've got five or six that follow us around, which are always appreciated. But it's it's nerves. But then it's also inspiring. Is they're in a club cricket situation where everyone's a volunteer and everyone pays to play. They're the people who you do it for. It's not the it's not the heroes of the day, etc. It's watching the It's watching the 60-year-old men cry at the end of semis and finals, which was great fun.

Yeah, brilliant.

Tell us what it means then for the cricket club as a whole, and tell us that because the club cricket's journeys to get to a final like this are never straightforward. So what does it mean and what was the journey to get to that point?

Yeah, we are, we are We sort of punch above our weight. We're, we're a club on the up. We've got a thriving junior section, 5 men's teams, 3 women's teams. And I mean, payers— every player pays to play, and we have to coach on a Friday night for the juniors for free. It's, it's what it's done for everybody around the club that's brought everyone back together. And every walk of life was there yesterday in terms of Anyone who supports the Bush from all the way from a junior all the way through to, to playing ladies cricket or community teams that we support locally. It's, um, it's been a journey and there's been a lot of people on the way with us, um, and yeah, it's been top class from, from everyone, everyone involved throughout.

Hello mate, congratulations, well done. Um, I've played, um, against the Bush on On quite a few occasions, it was— there was always a good social side down at the Bush, wasn't there? Was it, you know, you did go down there and have a really good sort of like community feel and everyone had a good time, didn't they?

We are— we're, we're— I think we're the most central Premier League club, so we get, we get a good social. The, the boys give it a good go. I think from reports— I was in bed nice and early— I think it was a 7 AM lockup of the club on a Monday morning. Which gives you a bit of an insight into a Sunday night of 200 people coming back to Shepherd's Bush after a Wormsley away win. So yeah, you've probably got a good taste of it.

What, what has the season been like before getting to obviously yesterday?

So it was, that was the, it was the 7th game of knockout cricket. So nervous is how I would summarize it. It's just, it's constant nail-biters. I don't know how much you've looked into it, but the last That was the fourth game that we've won in in the last over. We've chased every game, so we've taken our supporters through through hell to chase everyone. We've lost five tosses out of those seven. Luckily yesterday, Finn, our standing captain, must have taken out a different coin because we did win it before the rain came down. So it was a good toss to win. But yeah, nervous throughout, great journey, and knockout cricket and club cricket brings the best out of.

You have a kind of whimsical look on your face, Vornie. Well, I love it.

I love, I love, um, stories like that. I mean, um, I remember when I played for Sheffield Collegiate in the '90s that they managed to get to the final and got the job done. And those moments and memories from playing in the first team down at Aberdale sit with me as much as playing for Yorkshire and playing for England. That's actually where I learned the game.

Yeah. But it does feel anecdotally, and what I hear from friends, club cricket still thrives. I mean, you have to put a lot of work in and it relies on volunteers and, you know, weather can be awful at times, although not this summer, but the community still thrives.

It does. People rely on each other. It's friendships, it's people putting in extra hours that are completely unseen. There's youth coaches, there's groundsmen, there's chairmen's and meetings that happen in January that makes a big difference. Club cricket, I would say, is— people are adding teams to their clubs all the time, so it is thriving, and it means an awful lot to a lot of people that have been around the club. And county cricket and Middlesex League cricket, for years and years and years, we've had hundreds of messages coming in about how it's played and the sort of the lasting memories that will give to as supporters, and we won't forget it as a playing group. It's been, it's been fantastic.

Well, congratulations again, and thank you for your time this evening, Luke. Well done.

Cheers, John.

Thank you. Uh, that's Luke Matthews, who was at the crease, uh, when those winning runs were scored for Shepherd's Bush Cricket Club. Michael, Phil, Stephen, thank you very much. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 So much sport today, and all the goals as they go in up and down the league. This is 5 Live Sports. It's all eyes to the lights and foot to the floor.

It's not to stop her.

Everyone standing around the 18th green. That is sensational! He serves to the center, and that'll do it! Oh, the right hand, and the former champion is down!

It's this Extraordinary stuff.

They put on a show for us tonight.

He gets on his knees and kisses the turf.

Five Live Sports, the home of the world's greatest sporting events.

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