KP’s back, Jofra Archer and more Pakistan chaos

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

September's always busy. Whole Foods Market can help. Their September Stock Up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful, nourishing food.

Even better, there are hundreds of sales.

Get dinner going with canned soups and veggies. Lean on frozen pizzas, pastas, and seafood everyone loves. Their Build Your Own Family Meals feeds 4 for just $35.

Stock up at Whole Foods Market. Waiting for your sign?

Here it is.

Shop Labor Day appliance deals at Lowe's before they're gone. Get up to 45% off select major appliances. Plus, get free delivery, haul away, installation and parts, and a 2-year Lowe's Protection Plan on purchases of $999 or more. Labor Day deals are on now at Lowe's in store and online. Valid through 9/16 while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See lowes.com for more details.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

And over the next hour of 5 Live Cricket, we'll talk Kevin Peterson's new role in England's coaching setup. We'll hear from England bowler Jofra Archer, and we'll get the latest on what on earth is going on with Pakistan ahead of the 3rd Test at Edgbaston, which gets underway on Wednesday. Michael Vaughan and Jimmy Anderson are with us, and Stefan Schemmel as well, the BBC's cricket correspondent. I'm guessing if I've spoken to Jimmy about Burnley, Michael, you'd happily talk about Sheffield Wednesday, would you, at the moment?

We've made a good start, yeah, 4 out of 5. I think we've been a bit fortunate, the win away at Peterborough, we probably were a little bit scrappy, but you can't ask for a better start. We should have beaten Bradford actually, I mean, should have been 5 out of 5, but we'll take that. We've got Wigan on Saturday, chef, so all's looking rosy in Hillsborough.

Yeah, and they've had a very difficult start, have Wigan. Right, let's talk about the news today then with Jimmy and Michael. Peterson coming into England's white-ball coaching setup as a mentor. This is all part of building up to next year's 50-over World Cup. Do you want to take us through then, Stefan, how— what has happened today and how out of the blue this was?

Well, seeing as you didn't ask me about Stoke's 4-0 win against Charlton at the weekend, I'll talk about Kevin Peterson instead. Um, he tweeted this morning, Kevin Peterson, that he had some big breaking news. And I don't think anyone thought it was going to be this. And 12 years on from when he was effectively sacked by England, he's back. You know, after all that animosity and acrimony that followed that exit, he's now back with 3 Lions on his chest. And it's not unusual for England to appoint these consultants, particularly with the white ball team. They've had Andrew Flintoff, they've had Kieran Pollard in the recent past. England have got him with them up until the World Cup in South Africa. At the end of the home summer next year, so sort of our autumn in 2027. In announcing the Peterson appointment, they explained that part of it is because of his expertise of playing in South Africa. Obviously, everyone knows what he knows about that country, and he basically announced himself as an international cricketer under your captaincy, wasn't it, Vorny, in 2004 on that tour of South Africa? So that's what they've brought him in for. And also, I suppose the other bit of this will be there'll be a lot of players in that dressing room who will have grown up watching and idolizing Kevin Peterson. So I suspect, or you would hope, that there will be a queue of batters who want to work with him.

When you say he's with them, given that, given this title of specialist mentor, does that mean with them, with them wherever they go, either around the country or abroad, or available to them if required?

So we know he's going to be going on tour over the winter. He's not going to be in Pakistan. That's England's first Assignment of the winter. He's going to be joining up with them for the Sri Lanka series that starts next week, and then he's going to be in Australia and South Africa over the winter. Then again, in the home summer next year, I suppose this is also as well the first move in the what's going to be the new backroom teams. We don't know how they're going to quite take shape yet because, as Jimmy said earlier on, Stephen Fleming's coming in as the the test head coach in December. There are already coaches that were working with Brendan McCullum across formats in the past. So Truscottick is there as the as the test head coach at the moment, but he. He's been an assistant coach across formats, as has Jeetan Patel, Tim Southey, and Sarah Taylor have all been around. We don't quite know how that new setup is going to shake down and what Stephen Fleming will want and whether someone will be taken away from Brendan McCullum and put with the Test team. But for now, Kevin Peterson's going in with that white ball team, you would think mainly as a batting specialist, and he's there to add expertise and experience to all these young players. And I guess someone I'm really looking forward to seeing is what influence might he have on someone like Harry Brook.

Okay, what was your— I mean, we'll come on to individual players in a moment, I suppose, and there's a lot to unpick. What were your initial thoughts when you heard the news, both of you? Michael, go first.

Yeah, shocked, exactly the same as Stefan. I was out and about and suddenly the news popped up that Kev was coming back into English cricket. I'll be honest, I wasn't too sure what to make of it at the start. I've had a few hours to Kind of consider my thoughts. The one thing I know from Kevin Peterson, and again my time playing and captaining him, he was an ultra-professional, brilliant player, world-class. He's done a bit of mentoring with Delhi in the IPL. He's passionate about the game. You rightly say, Steph, about these players would have watched Kevin and obviously idolized the way that he played, the switches and all the modern kind of way of playing. He certainly was that player before his time. In that regard, I think he'll be absolutely fine for the team. The only issue I have is that there's some quite powerful big egos within that coaching setup. You know, I don't see any other team in the world that has such a famous, if you like, coaching setup as Baz McCullum, Kevin Peakes. We've got Stephen Fleming in the Test team. You add into that Marcus Trescothick. There's some really kind of big names. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. I'm just interested to know the dynamic. Going down the line, and for the start, I mean, I guess Kevin's big problem in his time within the game has been he's always started fine, and then things have gone a little bit wayward, whether it was at Notts, whether it was England. And I guess he's a different person now, and probably a lot wiser in terms of the way that he acts around every situation. So in terms of cricket and knowledge and what he can pass on to the players, I have absolutely no doubt that he'll do a really good job. It's just the dynamic of all these kind of. egos within the management group. I'm intrigued to know how that's going to end up.

We'll come on to that as well in a moment. What were your initial thoughts?

Yeah, a bit of surprise, I think, at first. But, um, why? I don't know. I just, I, I didn't think that he was, you know, you see him do his— he's done a bit of media, he's done, he's got a YouTube channel. I didn't know coaching or mentoring was something that— obviously done a little bit in the IPL, but Yeah, I think just from that point of view, I was a bit surprised. But actually, when you think about it, when the KP that I played with, he was an innovator, he was fearless, he was a winner, he knew how to win big games, you know, he won a World Cup. And I think that sort of character will be, will just rub off on people. You know, he'll be a great help. I think he'll Encourage people to think outside the box with their batting.

He also, as Michael said there, he works hard.

Yeah.

And he is, I mean, people will have their opinion, flamboyant and this and the hair at one point and this, that, and the other. We've all been there. But I mean, and all of that, but he really cares about his craft.

Yeah.

Doesn't he?

Yeah, definitely. Well, when he, as a player, he trained as hard as anyone, both fitness-wise and skills-wise. But he just, he had that ability to go on the field and have that flair and innovation and stuff. And as I said, he was, he was a winner. He just wanted to win. He wanted to score big runs in big games and big— he loved the big occasion. And hopefully that sort of— thing can sort of rub off on the guys who might not have experienced the World Cup before.

On the egos point that Michael made, whose appointment is this?

That's a really good question because we don't know that at the moment and you expect there'd have to be—

Not the cricket regulator, is it? We normally have a discussion about them at some point.

You'd expect that it's had to be a collaborative approach. Brendan McCullum was talking to Michael earlier on today and he mentioned that he'd met Kevin Peterson earlier on In the summer, but you can't, as a management group, just bring in someone like Kevin Peterson without everyone agreeing and being on the same page. I think what it's interesting, I was just thinking about it when Jimmy was talking about it, is when England have split the coaching setups in the past, we've often spoken about one format maybe not getting priority, if you will, that one's been been sort of sidelined. And I guess it's really interesting then from that point of view that when you think that the problem has been with the, the Test team, and actually under Brendan McCullum the white ball results have improved, the T20 side have been ranked number 1 in the world, and the one-day side seem to slowly getting— be getting things back on track, that maybe you'd be thinking, well, actually, is there going to be more focus on the Test team in, in the next little while? But the first big appointment has come in, in the white ball team. So I think that's an interesting dynamic going forward because I guess when you're thinking about how England are going to balance these things, well, not for one second is Brendan McCullum going to want to think that he's getting the raw end of the deal. So in the first appointment that's come, it's a big name that's going into the white ball setup.

I mean, the dynamic that you talked about, McCullum and Peterson then, and you threw other names in there, I suppose, Michael, with egos within the coaching setup. Would you want roles to be clearly defined?

Oh, I think it's very hard to define roles straight away. I think they'll have to find a way of Kevin operating. Again, I've not seen him coach, I've not seen him in a dressing room since he's been a player, so I'm not too sure the style that he brings in that regard. But it's so important that you remember it's about the players. You know, it's about the 11 that go on the field, it's about the 15 that's in the squad, it's about making sure that the focus is on the players and You know, with such a powerful, famous coaching setup, the one thing I've looked at the white ball team in recent times, I've never felt that they were lacking the coaching. You know, I think the Test team in terms of some of the batting, you could argue that they need a little bit more coaching and maybe Kevin would have been better off in the Test environment. Stefan's just mentioned about, you know, number one in the world in T20 cricket, the 50-over team, the Champions Trophy was in the subcontinent, the World Cup defence was in India. 2 places that are very difficult to perform, or historically it's been a hard place for England to go and perform. But the next World Cup's in South Africa. I'm guessing that's probably one of the main reasons why he's come in. It was a part of the last World Cup, the defence in Mumbai. Stefan mentioned it on the phone to me this afternoon regarding that toss decision in Mumbai in a million-degree heat, and England decided to bowl. And after that game, they could have done with some local knowledge. I don't think you need local knowledge to make that decision on that given day. But I think Kevin will bring a bit of local knowledge, obviously, from South Africa. He's obviously from there. He's been working there in the T20 tournament there, and he has a house there. So I would think he's going to bring a lot in terms of the South African conditions. I'm just intrigued about the dynamic, you know, the dynamic of the coaches who are going to get so much attention. And when you have that, you've got to be very, very careful and understand that It's about the players. It's about getting those 11 players going out onto the field and playing the right style of cricket again. You know, Harry Brook will be a flamboyant leader. He's done really well in white ball cricket as a captain. But the one thing I don't think the white ball team need anymore is revving up. I don't think they need revving up with the bat in hand. They're absolutely fine with the way that they play. It's just a little bit of smartness. I think what people forget with Kevin Peterson is He was flamboyant, he did play aggressively, but he did play smart at the right times. And that's what I hope he'll bring to the England white ball team.

I mean, he said earlier this year, tactically, you have to understand the situation. I know I've got all the credentials, I know I do. I've worn every single t-shirt, I've failed, I've won, I've done everything in the game. And I would never ever not looking at helping England out. There was a clue there, wasn't there? But then he goes on saying, the shortest form of the game, sure, play without fear, go out there, be brave, be reckless, be careless, be whatever you want. In Test match cricket, you cannot do that. I know we're specifically defining the role here, white ball mentor specialist, but you'd be daft if you were Jacob Bethell, for argument's sake, not to pick Kevin Peterson's brains about batting in Test match cricket as well, wouldn't you?

Yes, absolutely.

So the label is just a label.

Yeah, I think getting him, you know, he's— I think they call him a mentor because he's not done his coaching badges and contractually you can't call him a coach.

Right, right.

I think that's how they get around it. So the mentor thing, whether you call him a coach or a mentor or whatever, he'll be doing a bit of everything. He'll be trying to pass on knowledge that he's learned from his years and years of playing T20 cricket, international cricket, Test cricket. He will be passing that on. I think the difficulty is picking the right time to do it because if you're just coming in for big series and you don't want to just pile information on people for, you know, it's got to be drip-fed in. And I think him being around for a long period of time will help that. Get to know a few of the guys, build a relationship, and then start drip-feeding information in. And you'll get a feel for who wants to take it on board and who doesn't.

I think when the news broke earlier on today and a lot of people like, wow, that's Kevin Peterson, and you think that because of the name of who it is, but actually if you look at the way that England have operated over the past couple of years, They've had lots of people in and around either the senior team or the Lions. So I mentioned Flintoff and Kieran Pollard. Dinesh Karthik's worked with them, Kumar Sangakkara, I think Dale Steyn as well. Jimmy Anderson has been England's bowling consultant. So I don't know, how do players react to you, Jimmy, as well, especially when they know you and they've seen what you can do? Are they— do they want to come up to you and ask for advice, or are they a bit standoffish to begin with?

Well, I probably didn't go in at the right time because I went straight from playing into that role. And I had a good relationship with most of the guys. I played with most of them. So Mark Wood, for example, Gus Atkinson, Joffre. I played with all these guys. So it was kind of easy. I was just basically doing what I've been doing as a bowler for that period of time. But then obviously towards the back end of it, I realized I wanted to keep playing, so I racked it off. But it is difficult because also there's so much cricket that these guys play. So you've got to be careful not to just be constantly on them. They've got to give them the space. You've got to let them figure things out themselves as well. And if they want to talk to you, you've got to be open and there for them, I guess. And that's not just being a coach or a mentor, that's being a A teammate and a squad player.

Do you think— I know you talk about the dynamics, but if you now have Peterson, McCollum, Fleming, Root, Brook as the white ball captain, Marcus Trescothick around as well, if you are— well, I'm not going to use Bethel as an example again, so I'll do— if you're Jordan Cox here, You can have too many voices, can't you?

Yeah, I guess so. But the skill of the player is understanding which voices you're going to listen to the most. You know, I've said for a few years that, you know, if I was a player in this era, I'd want to choose my own coach, you know, and have my own sets of eyes and ears. And that might not necessarily be the names that you've mentioned. That'll be outside the England bubble. I think it's so important as a player that you understand your game. And it might be that you've had a coach since the age of 10. That knows you more than anybody. Did you?

Did you?

Yeah, yeah, I did have a couple of coaches. Yeah, a guy called Jack Bethel that was my coach from the age of 10. Then Doug Padgett at Yorkshire, who was my coach from the age of about 16, 17. And I'd always check in with Duncan Fletcher when everything was with the England side. So I think it's important that you have these kind of go-to people away from the England bubble. But, you know, from what I look from, you know, particularly Rob Kearney's appointments over the last few years, he likes this this style of appointment. You know, he likes the big personalities, the vibe coaches. That's what I describe that, the mentors that can create a dressing room vibe with the presence that they bring as soon as they walk through the doors. The likes of Steven Fleming, Kevin Pietersen, Freddie Flintoff, they've got huge presence. And maybe that's the style of character that the England players like and need. But away from that, you know, you do need good technical coaching. I'm not saying Kevin Pietersen won't be technical because I've never seen him coach, but cricket is still a very technical game that you need to make sure that you have coaches that you're working with can get to your logbook and make sure that you're checking in with all your technical side. And then the vibe, the mentality, the confidence comes from those that are around you on a regular basis and the way that they taught you. You can go out into the field and produce your magic. But, you know, I still hope that there's room for a bit of technique because I think from what I see, And what I hear is still a lot of vibe coaching going on within the England setup.

In the answer that you gave there, it would suggest that you think it's a Rob Key appointment.

Well, he's the cheque signer, you know, he's in charge of English cricket, he's the managing director of the England cricket team. So whether he came up with the idea, maybe it was an idea from Baz McCullum, I've no idea. But, you know, Rob Key's the boss, so I guess he's the one that's made the final call in terms of the numbers. You have to sign a contract with Kevin and Rob Kee would have to take that to the board to get it signed off. So I'd say that Rob Kee certainly would play a big part in this signing, yeah.

Did you have an individual coach that you would turn to away from whatever the coaching setup was at either Lancashire or England?

Not especially. I think you obviously, you're going to work with a decent amount of coaches throughout your career if you have a successful career. And I think you do come back to coaches and you, you know, you might give them a ring or come back to what they taught you or what the advice that they gave you. But for me, it was all like I tried to do a lot of it myself. So I'll take bits of information from different coaches and then try and figure out what is the best for me. So Mike Watkinson was my first one at Lancashire. Then Peter Moores had a huge influence on me with England. Moltis Gibson, David Saker, they all sort of had little bits of input and I feel like I just sort of mentally go back to when they were coaches and what they taught me and all very different because everyone's different, every player's different. You've got to figure things out yourself as a player and know, like, you will connect with a coach, with certain coaches better than other people connect with them. But it's about just figuring out what's best for you.

As we've all said, for some of these younger players, they will have grown up watching Peterson, that he will be a hero to some of these. Is there somebody, for both of you actually, and Stefan can answer it as well if he wants, is there somebody that you could equate that with when you were a kid watching who if had then come into a setup to coach you, you'd have gone, wow?

Vornie?

Harold Larwood.

Yeah, steady on, chaps.

Alan Lamb.

Yeah.

And Robin Smith.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I, I, I was fortunate in the kind of mid-'90s to be called into the England team as just a young 12th man, you know, just to go and carry the drinks, um, make sure that Jack Russell's Weetabix was right at lunch. And I was around, uh, Robin Smith and watched him prepare, watch him play. Uh, I'd love to play with Robin Smith, um, but Alan Lamb, absolutely, absolutely. I played against him at Northampton, uh, adored Still do.

And actually, you know, much missed Robin Smith. When we interviewed him, what, 3 years ago, 4 years ago when he came in and he just had— we were both like, oh my God, it's Robin. He had an aura, didn't he?

Yeah, yeah, that's what these kind of— and that's what Kevin will bring. He'll bring an aura, you know, he really will. He'll bring a swagger. Um, he's also very good at golf, which is important.

And if they're in South Africa and Australia, he's got great contacts.

So he'll get on the great golf courses. So maybe he's been brought in as a golf secretary.

Have you thought of someone?

No, no, no. I thought that Darren Gough was the one that sprung to mind, someone I grew up watching all the time, but I ended up playing with him at the start of my career, so which was just incredible. But he was someone—

It's gotta be Bully Austin, Jimmy, innit?

Yeah, yeah, I played with him.

Played with Peter Martin, Dan Chappell, all of them.

Yeah. Given the— just a couple more on this and then we'll hear from Geoff Rarch in a moment. Is there, because of all the different appointments that you've mentioned over the last couple of years, does that remove any suspicion of him being a coach-in-waiting for when there's a stumble?

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because that's the thing that we were talking about Andrew Flintoff. Quite a lot that he first came in as a as a mentor, and he was sort of doing an ad hoc role. And then he became the England Lions coach, and then there was lots of chat about him potentially being the next England head coach, and he distanced himself from that. And then he was never in the running for for the test job when Brendan McCullum was sacked. I don't know if Kevin Peterson well, we don't know. Maybe we'll ask him. And I tell you what, I'd love to be in his first press conference as well because I think that could be box office. The other thing I was just thinking about when you're talking about, and I've said it, that there'll be a lot of players in that team that remember. Kevin Pietersen as an England player. I don't know though, are we— to make us all feel old, he last played for England 12 years ago, and I think Jordan Cox is about 23. He's certainly no older than 25. Jacob Bethell's only 21. There'll be some players who might actually not remember a great deal about Kevin Pietersen. So sorry if I'm just taking that down a notch.

Well, it has a little bit.

Can I just bring something to your attention, Stefan? Generally, the assistant coach is only get wheeled out on a bad news day.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

It's not— you don't wheel out the batting coach when the team has scored 450. You wheel them out when they've been bowled out for 50.

They'll be even more punchy then, won't it, if KP's rolled out on a bad day?

Just a final one then. Do you think Harry Brook could be a big beneficiary of this then, Michael?

Well, I think Harry Brook's doing fine already. I mean, his captaincy's been Really good. His relationship with obviously Baz McCullum is a strong one. As Steph mentioned, he's got his team to number 1 in the T20s. His 50-over team look like they're back on track. They're playing in conditions that should suit England in the World Cup in a year's time in South Africa. It can't hinder Harry by having someone like Kevin Pietersen around. And I said a few years ago, Harry's the only player since Kevin that I've seen someone back like Kev. You know, Kevin was a genius when he got it right. Some of the innings that he played were right up there with the best innings that an England player has ever played. And I think Harry's matched him on a few occasions already in his short career. So having him next to him, again, I don't know how much they know each other. It's just personalities and making sure that you understand each other and when you know when to talk, when not to talk. And I think that's the real skill of coaching is Knowing when to open your mouth. More often than not, it's knowing when to say nothing, and that's going to be the real skill for Kev, I think.

Michael Vaughan, Jimmy Anderson, Stephen Shemelt with us on Five Live Cricket.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio Five Live.

So much sport today, and all the goals as they go in. This is Five Live Sports.

It's all eyes to the lights and foot to the floor.

Balls to folks edged and caught. McElroy steps up and taps in that little. He says to the center, and that'll do it.

What a goal! That is a beautiful goal. Oh, we're right hand, and the former champion is down.

We did extraordinary stuff. They put on a show for us tonight. Five Live Sports.

Hear the world's greatest sporting events right here.

There is the full-time whistle.

Listen on BBC Sounds. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Let's, uh, turn our attention, uh, from, uh, Kevin Peterson and the batting side of things, uh, to the bowling side of things. A lot of praise being given to the bowling attack during this series against Pakistan, and we can hear from one of them now. Jofra Archer in line to play his 5th Test in a row, and that would be the most he's ever played in a home Test summer.

When you're up and you're going, I'd say it's a bit easier to just keep bowling, you know. It's difficult when you need to take a break and then you've got to come back. So if I do have the opportunity to keep going the whole year round, I'll try my best to do that.

Is that how you find it? Because some bowlers say the best way to stay fit for bowling is to keep bowling. Is that how it's worked for you?

Yeah, but obviously not doing too much. You know, you have your 2, 3 days and then you just keep going. Like, if you bowl once a week, I reckon bowling once a week for the rest of your life— well, rest of your career is probably the way.

How have you found it over the course of this series with this, with this new 4-man attack coming together and having so much success?

Well, it's still early days, but we've been, we've been going all right so far. You know, this wicket usually goes 5 days, so we'll see how we go if we have the opportunity to be out there a bit longer than the last 2 games. But regardless, everyone's very relentless and, you know, Gus and Tongi are due for another big haul. So, you know, hopefully it can come this game.

One of the things that I think everyone One thing everyone's noticed about the 4 of you as an attack is you've got different skills that complement each other. What do you see as your role in that attack?

Well, same as everyone's role, you know. You come in and you try to make an impact. You know, if the guy at the other end is going well, you complement him, and if he's not, then you try to, you know, take up and try to be the aggressor. And that's it. Everyone just pushing and pulling.

Is there a leader of the attack?

I don't know. I don't know right now anyway. Um, seems to be Ollie. He's, he, he's getting all the pulls, so definitely we'll definitely support him.

Do you feel that looking back to when you came into the England team, there was more experienced cricketers around? Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad, Chris Woakes. You were the, the younger, more inexperienced. Now do you look around the dressing room and think, wow, I'm one of the older guys now?

Yeah, but I still probably play less Tests than Oliver, to be honest. So, you know, you say that, but also if they play more games, I mean, more time, more game time means more experience. But, you know, I think the group, everyone is, everyone's around a similar age. Everyone's in a good space as well. You know, everyone, you look around, everyone's smiling. So, you know, it's a good time, good time to be around.

You said you think Ollie's leading because he's the one taking the wickets. Who gets choice of ends?

That all depends on the day as well, to be honest, because I think he goes I think he got choice at Leeds. So, you know, same Rooty, just whatever is best for the squad, whatever is best for that person at that ground, then it'll be the better way to go.

What about choosing the ball?

I let him do it. I don't really believe in— I don't think there's a huge science in even in white ball cricket, you know, just pick a ball and go, to be honest.

How have you found playing under Joe Root again? Because one of the things that he talked about when he became captain for the second time was that maybe in his first time as captain, he didn't always know how to get the best out of you. He didn't know how to use you, in his opinion. What do you think about that?

So long ago, to be honest. I mean, the time when I was injured, I didn't really— I really got away from it. To be honest, it's all been a blur. To be honest, I didn't remember. I didn't realise how long the time I was either. But, you know, since we've been back, you know, everything's been amazing. You know, the lads have been doing well. I love that. This is my first Test series victory since probably South Africa 2020, I think, or something like that. It was part of the Ashes, but we retained it. Then we didn't win in December. India, we drew again. So like, we drew a lot, but this is actually really good to win the Test series. And, you know, hopefully it continues for a long time.

When you say it was a blur, do you mean your time when you were away from Test cricket?

Yeah, because I did I did take a step away from cricket, you know. I think with my rehab and like being away, being back in Barbados and stuff. So, you know, like I'd be lying if I didn't say I had a good time like away from everything. But, you know, now the present and everything's really, really nice. And, you know, my body's in a good place, team's in a good place, everyone's in a good place. And I just want to play cricket.

Did you feel like you needed to take that step away When you were injured? Because I don't know, it was frustrating not being part of this setup, that you'd had setbacks. Was that something that you needed to do to put some distance between yourself and cricket?

Well, nobody likes missing cricket, and I think that was just the most frustrating part for me. That was it. But I got to spend some time at home, like just moving over, and you never really get more than a couple of weeks So actually to spend like a month, month here and there, it was, it was really nice. You get to catch up with your friends and family that, you know, you would have grown apart from because I came over and it was like 19, 20. So like for 4 years it was just all about cricket. So to actually get a few months back, it was, it made you feel really nice, really grounded, because then at the end of the day, like at some point cricket's going to end and then what are you going to do after? So, you know, it was really nice to see your family, see your friends, see People that you don't really get to see. Again, you don't really get to see much birthdays. Like, my mom's birthday is in March. Actually, you know what? I don't think I've been home for a single family birthday because you usually go like October, November. So yeah, like, it's just simple things like that. I don't get to see mom on Mother's Day. I don't— like, there's so much that you miss out on when you're playing that you don't really realize till you actually get to do it.

Steph talking to Joffre Archer on the building site.

Am I being told off here?

No, not at all. No, it just amuses me that the interview was put up and they just kept building the stand. Well, they are building the stand.

They're not just going to stop for me to talk to Joffre Archer.

I think you've got that power now, to be honest with you. His mindset around the injury is very interesting there and actually trying to turn it into a positive.

Yeah, I think that I mean it's always difficult when you go through a period of being injured, but hearing him now saying he just wants to play cricket, like he's got to that point where he's just itching to play and seeing him, you know, I think he's been managed well in these test matches this summer so far. To be fair, he's not had, you know, he's not gone to day four or day five where he's been asked to bowl a tough spell when it's flat and. They need a wicket.

But joking aside, is that probably something that they are going to have to consider? Because we talk about how well the bowling attack have done and how balanced they are, but physically they haven't necessarily been pushed to their limits.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's all been very positive. I agree, like, we've seen some great performances, but the wickets they've played on have just not challenged them enough. And the opposition that they've played against have not challenged them enough. So there will be bigger challenges for the bowling group down the line. And I think that is something they've got to be wary of because they will come up against better opposition on flatter wickets where— and there'll be times when it's really tough and they've bowled 25 overs in a day and the captain's asking them to come back and bowl another 3-over spell at the end of the day to get a wicket. And it's going to be more difficult. So I think, yes, be positive at the moment. They're definitely building something which you can see from the outside, but I think that, you know, there will be sterner tests in the future.

Because the feeling that if that is required, the worry will be whether Joffre could put his body through that, Michael.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, when you've had injuries, it's always a concern that those injuries may return. But, you know, so far what I've seen this summer, they're managing nicely. The challenges will come in South Africa, they'll come in the winter. They'll come next summer. But it's just nice to see the England attack. They're bowling with nice variations, which are natural variations. So Joffre is setting the tone and we're all looking at Joffre. When you see him bowl 90-odd miles an hour in his first few overs of a Test match, you go, gone. That's what exactly you want to see. But you want to see that in South Africa for 3 consecutive Test matches. You want to see him producing those spells at the start of the Ashes next year at Trent Bridge. I'll be brutally honest, in a few months' time, probably next week actually, we'll have forgotten this Pakistan series. It's been a series where Pakistan have upstaged their chaos of the past. It's been remarkable, really. So let's not really look at this series. England have got back on track with a few wins. The bowling attack has looked great because the opposition have been so poor. As Jimmy says, the challenges come when the opposition are a bit stronger, the pitches are a little bit flatter, the conditions are a bit hotter. But so far, particularly Jofra, when I see him bowl 90-odd miles an hour those first 3 or 4 overs, setting the tone, You know he can do it and you know he's got the ability to crack open a game right at the start. Don't let the game get set, crack it open right at the start. And that's, I guess, what we would want to see from Joffre in South Africa and absolutely next summer against the Aussies.

The thing with the attack that's come together now is a bit of an accident, not just because Ben Stokes has retired, but also at the start of this series, Marcus North, the selector, said, well, if Sam Curran had been fit, He might well have been in as the all-rounder, then it would have been 3 specialist seamers and maybe a spinner, obviously depending on the conditions. We've seen the pitches that maybe that wouldn't have been the way that England go. But there's the sort of 2 problems I can see going forward with this attack, for as exciting as it's looked in the past few matches, in that what Jimmy and Michael are saying is, you know, when it is hot and it is flat, is there going to be a spinner who can hold up an end for a long period of time to make sure that The fast bowlers don't just have to keep going spell after spell, session after session, but also what is behind these 4 bowlers at the moment, because we don't know how long Brydon Kars is going to be out of the picture for, even though England last week did say that he is available for selection. Because the other bowlers in the squad this week are Sam Cook and Sonny Baker, 1 cap apiece. Matthew Fisher has been around this summer, he's only got 2 caps. So if England remain unchanged this week, which we think I think they may well do, that would be potentially an opportunity that goes by without giving someone else more experience. And if you look at the Test matches in South Africa over the winter, which are back to back to back, are these 4 bowlers going to get through all 3 of those Test matches? And then when they don't, or when England have to rotate, they're then going to be looking at someone that they're not 100% sure about.

What would you do this Test, Maxime, with the attack? Would you keep it unchanged? Would you like to have a look at someone else? Equally, is it irrelevant because of everything you said in the previous answer?

I think it's irrelevant. Yeah, I'd pick the same team. I mean, they've not been overworked. I don't think playing at Edgbaston against this Pakistan team will give the coaches or selectors any sort of knowledge about another player coming in. I don't think they'll get a fair sort of, you know, what's the word? They wouldn't see a fair reflection of what they can do because I think this Pakistan team's so weak. So I just play the same team, try and get this series over and done with, and then move on to bigger challenges. And there will be— I think that I don't mind going for the natural changes. So when someone gets injured or when someone's sore, then you bring someone else in. And whether they played 1 Test or 10 Tests, you know, they've been around the group for long enough. If they're good enough, then they'll do a good job. And hopefully you've got another 3 or 4 bowlers around them. that will protect them and allow them to come into the team and do the job that they're good at.

Would you want to have a look at anybody else, or like Jimmy, would you think given the context it's irrelevant?

Yeah, I mean, if I was in the England management, I mean, I'll give you 2 answers actually. If I was in the England management, I'd go same again. But then I'd think from my side of the fence going, well, I wouldn't mind looking at Sam Cooke, 'cause he's played one Test against Zimbabwe. Ollie Robinson to me looks like he's the pivotal kind of tone setter. And if Ollie went down, I'd want a similar style of bowler to replace Ollie Robinson. So that'd be the only way I'd look at it. And it'd be for Jofra Archer because he's obviously someone that you need to wrap in a bit of cotton wool to make sure that he's fit and firing. This Test match, as I said, we won't be speaking about it probably on Saturday afternoon because we'll all be quite happy that this series is done and kind of gone away. But that's the honest— Yeah, look, if I'm in the management, I'm going same again, just win another game of cricket. But in the back of my mind, I'd be thinking, I wouldn't mind having a look at Sam Curran.

The pace bowling's actually changed quite a lot. If you think of the seamers that went to Australia and how excited England were about the pace attack that went there and how long that it'd taken them to put that together. At the moment, there's no Mark Wood, Ben Stokes has gone, Brydon Kars isn't in the picture, Matthew Potts has been left out. So that's changed quite a lot in a very short space of time.

Got rid of Durham.

Yeah, and it's done well for Durham as well. They're on the way up. But at the moment, I know that the England management, they're really excited about what they've put together. They think that this is something that they've been working on for a long period of time, and even getting Joffre Archer back to the fitness and the work they've put in for him and the loyalty and the faith and all those central contracts and all those sorts of things. So they think that this attack can do something special. But the question is just that depth, isn't it? Because fast bowling injuries can hit at any point. And it would only take one or two, and then we'd have to find out about other bowlers.

I also don't know what the sort of schedule looks like, but with 2 coaches now, is there going to be a point where there's going to be a white ball series and a Test match series? Somebody's going to— yeah, I want Joffre. No, I want Joffre.

Well, if this Test match goes 5 days, England are playing a T20 2 days later, the first T20 against Sri Lanka in Southampton.

I mean, it's a big if.

It is a big if, I'll give you that. But what we have with this situation earlier on in the summer, and Joffre Archer and Josh Tong both missed the first T20 against India. They were rested.

Stefan, if we're still there on the 5th day, I will buy you a lovely dinner on the 4th night.

Deal.

Absolutely.

Deal.

Does the player have to have a say in that?

I don't think so. I think you can— it's hard for you to say, I want to play. As a player, you'd say, I want to play everything. I want to play as many games as I possibly can. But then you've got to take on the information from the medical team. You know, you've got to listen to your body as well because you're— I know they've not in this Test series, they've not bowled a huge amount, but they've still bowled enough and it does take its toll at some point. So you've got to just try and be sensible with it as a player.

How did you find it when you played under split coaches?

Well, I generally got, I got left out of white ball series rested, should we say, until the point where I got dropped in the end completely after the 2015 World Cup. But then that prolonged my Test career as well. So I hated it at the time because I wanted to play everything, but actually as I got older, I actually could understand it because my Test career benefited from it.

Can I just ask you one on Ollie Robinson before we move on to talking about Pakistan, which is an amazing record at home? Less away. Is there anything? Is it a simple saying? Is there anything that he can do to change his away record compared to his home record?

I think. I mean, I've seen him bowl well away. He bowled well in Pakistan in one test, but his fitness record is the one thing that needs to needs to get better. I think if he's going to have. A long England career, which he can because he's that good. He just needs to make sure he's fit enough to stay on the field. He needs to make sure he's fit enough to be on the field when the captain needs you when it's hard. It's fine bowling at Lord's when it's going all over the place. It's fine bowling at the Oval when it's gone all over the place. But can you do it in India, Pakistan, South Africa with a Kookaburra ball when it's not Not going around corners when the captain needs you to have some control. And that's, that's when it's, when it's difficult and when he'll be tested, I think.

Jimmy Anderson, Michael Vaughan, Stephen Shemelt with us. Stephen, thank you very much. Let's move on to talking about Pakistan. Last week it was announced they dropped and sent home 7 players ahead of the 3rd Test. They also released head coach Safran Ahmed and his assistant Umar Gul. Today, the Pakistan Cricket Board released a statement saying they've initiated an internal disciplinary inquiry Following media reports concerning discipline and conduct, which are currently being reviewed internally. This afternoon, their new bowling coach Ashley Nofka was put up to talk about the situation.

Yeah, it's unusual, isn't it? It doesn't happen very often, and I guess from Mike and my perspective is all we can do is come in and add positivity. You know, we want to listen to the players as. much as we can. So there's obviously a feeling of uncertainty, but also they've just got back on the job. I've been really impressed with the level of calmness that they've taken over the last couple of days once we've given them time to talk. And we've done that in one-on-one scenarios where they can talk to the head coach, the bowlers can talk to me, and they can get things off their chest and then move forward. So it's about us getting in the present now. And like anything, the uncertainty can make you feel, you know, you take a step back and you're not sure. We've really been encouraging these guys to show their skills, whatever that may be. If it's Abbas that can nibble it on a spot, or if the spinner plays, you know, the revs that he shows and the skills that he shows Arafat on the inside, I think that's what we want them to do. So it's like any good sport, you know, you need to encourage them to go to their strengths.

And The PCB have said this morning there's an investigation into the conduct of some of the players. What do you know about that?

As much as you do, and I can be really honest in that. I don't know too much. I sit outside of that decision-making model above us as coaches. We try and keep the players focused on what they need to worry about, and there's always— I guess that's one thing that I've learned about being in public life and coaching for a period of time, nearly 15 months now with the white ball team, is there's always something going on in the background. And whether or not it's in or out of our control, and I think most of the time it's out of the player's control, they need to focus on the cricket that they have in front of them and the opportunity they have in front of them, because there's some really great opportunities here for young cricketers that are highly skilled. So, you know, we're not really in the position to even know the outcome. workings of what's happening at PCB in that context.

I appreciate you don't know a great deal and you can't say a great deal, but is it concerning or unsettling that that is going on in the background while you're trying to prepare for a Test match?

Oh, I guess it's how much you let it be, you know, how much you let it be concerning. I think the players don't get too involved in it. I think that's the best part. And as a coach, you know, we're busy enough as it is. You know, we're around. There's a few guys here that I've worked with on the edges but not had really close contact, but there's guys here that I've had lots of contact with. So, you know, I'm busy just understanding them, getting to know what they do and how they go about things and how they prepare for a Test match, helping them sort of get what they need.

What were you saying earlier, Michael, about the assistant coach being sent out? But he thought when he got asked, oh great, thanks very much for that. Goodness me.

Yeah, it's been a pretty good day for Pakistan though because no one's been sent home. So he It's not the worst day he could have been sent out there.

Uh, let's talk to cricket journalist Saj Siddiq on 5 Live Cricket. Evening, Saj. What a mess.

It certainly is, chappers. And, um, I think it's standard for England tours from Pakistan or by Pakistan that, uh, there is a certain level of chaos. But, um, as Michael was saying, I think, uh, they've gone, uh, probably a few levels above previous chaotic tours. I mean, it's just, uh, it's an example of that is, uh, the, the release from the media director from the PCB today. I don't know why it didn't come from the Pakistan Cricket Board, but, uh, he's used the term internally twice.

Yeah.

And yet they put it out on social media. So it's an internal investigation that's been declared on social media. And, um, as I say, I have no idea why it didn't come from the Pakistan Cricket I've read that media release about 27 times, and I still can't understand it.

Well—

I think what they're trying to say is that a couple of players misbehaved, or that's what the allegations are. And I'm led to believe that a couple of the players who were sent back out of the 7, their phones were checked, downloaded, before they went back to Pakistan.

I mean, there's an awful lot of finger-pointing, rumor, Counter-rumour. I mean, Azhar Ali has written in The Guardian today, cricket in Pakistan needs proper care and a vision that gives hope to a nation on the brink of losing their appetite. If we don't pull our socks up, we won't be able to bring people back. And that probably is the general feeling, isn't it? In amongst all of these recriminations and he said, he said this, that, and the other, that's the crux of it. bit. That phrase, proper care and vision.

I think there is no vision. There is no hope. If you ask the fans now in Pakistan, I mean, you know, the world is laughing at Pakistan cricket. There's no doubt about that. Well, Pakistan cricket fans themselves are laughing at the Pakistan cricket team, which I think in the past, the Pakistan fans have tried to back the team. You know, they've always been behind them, especially in England. I mean, we've seen at Headingley and at Lord's hardly any Pakistan fans. So they're voting with their feet as well. And I think it's a situation that now is beyond control. And I think the Pakistan Cricket Board, the hierarchy, the people running cricket in Pakistan need to take a good look at themselves rather than finger-pointing and blaming everyone but themselves.

I mean, dropping 7 players from a tour, it is unprecedented.

Jimmy, it's a bit extreme. Yeah, yeah, but again, I think it's not really surprising. I think you'd ask Michael as well, like our experiences of playing against Pakistan. I remember our last tour there, and then you've got different people in the middle of the ground before each game. And I remember seeing Azhar Ali, and I was like, what are you doing here? You're back in the squad? He's like, no, I'm a selector now. So you're like, oh, it's just just stuff going on all the time. And I think it does need that, you know, Azhar Ali's spot on that you need that care. And like, what, what, where does this Pakistan team want to go? And where, how do we get back on track and then try and formulate a plan to do that? Because they've got, they've got some talented players and they've got some really good, really good players that should be performing a lot better than they are.

But where do you have sympathy with the players, Michael?

Yeah, I do. Look, we'll have to wait and see what the investigation brings. But when you think Ali Usman got a fiver at Headingley, you name me a fingerspinner. I think Jack Leach got one against New Zealand in the second innings a few years ago. But a fingerspinner getting a fiver on the second day at Leeds, it just doesn't happen. He's been sent home. You know, the captain for that first Test match, Salman Aliyagu, took a flying one-hander as a subfielder at Lord's. He's been sent home. Khurram Shazad, who I thought bowled a lot better at Lord's than he did at Headingley, So he was getting better in the series. He's been sent home. I care about cricket and Pakistan has been one of the real joys throughout my time playing and watching because they do bring a bit of chaos in a good way. 'Cause I always look at Pakistan and think, you know what, the chaos will galvanize the group and they'll come back stronger. This team won't come back stronger because of what's happened. There's no way I can see a Pakistan side arriving at Edgbaston and playing to any level that will compete with England. And that's a real great shame. And I think this last few days, I think we've always looked at Pakistan cricket and we've always known there's been lots going on. But when you become a laughingstock, and that's what they've become this week, I think that's just such a great shame. It's the leaders. It's not the players. I feel sorry for the players that they're just in a vacuum of really poor leadership. And it's those that are above them. You know, Musharraf Ahmed was the coach in 2023. There's been 12 coaches since. Yeah, 12 since 2023. Just work that out, 12.

Do you think, and bearing in mind that stat that Michael has said, Saj, and bearing in mind some of the stuff that has been said about some of these players by those high up within the PCB during this tour, do you get any sense that— not that I'm sure what they could do, but do you get any sense that the players are furious and want to fight back?

I think the appetite is there, chaps, from the players, but, um, they're simply not good enough. And that's down to the system, the preparation. I think Pakistan cricket always had this tendency to produce players completely out the blue. They'd spot a player from some rural remote village, um, they'd organize some camp and somebody would turn up and bowl 90 miles an hour. And they draft him in. And, um, you know, a senior player would stop, uh, and, uh, watch a local match and draft somebody in completely out the blue. I think those days have gone. That natural talent, you know, that, that sort of unseen talent that we used to bring to the international fore, I think that's completely gone. I think we're relying on a lot of— I know it sounds harsh, but a lot of average cricketers at the moment. Cricketers who would rather play In T20 leagues, unfortunately, the first-class system in Pakistan is neglected. They keep changing the format season after season. You know, like the ECB, the next few years you'll have all your fixtures, all your away tours, all your home tours sorted out. In Pakistan cricket, all of a sudden they organize a training camp for 30 players, and then a few weeks later they might organize a domestic competition, and then no, no, we'll cancel that. We'll organize something else. So, I mean, it's not just chaos on the field, but it's chaos off the field as well.

Saj, thank you very much for, for joining us. Appreciate it. Saj Sadiq with us, uh, cricket journalist. I mean, even, even stuff like the, the PCB Director of High Performance said this about Imam-ul-Haq for, for not batting whilst injured: how is it possible that a pulled muscle ruled you out of batting in both innings? He should have tried and fought. He'll have to face an inquiry. I can't say he faked it, but a muscle pull like that cannot stop you from batting altogether. You can't start having inquiries about whether someone's genuinely injured or not, can you?

Well, I'm guessing that they've got— they've had a scan and it's not as serious as what he was saying it is. That's the only way you can say he should have batted, because if you pull a calf, you can't bat, you can't run. It's not that simple. So yeah, I mean it's just it's far too mess.

Yeah, it's far too. And actually, it it leaves a very it leaves a very unsatisfying end to the summer, doesn't it, Michael? Let's be honest.

It does. And I laugh because it is far too cool. But I also love the way that Pakistan play cricket, and I know that there'll be a huge amount of talent within their country. And within the squads that we've seen that aren't maximizing their potential. But how do you maximize your potential when you're led so badly from above you? With the chaotic nature of their structure, from the chaotic way that they probably pick players, from the chaotic way that they manage their players within their groups, you're never going to get consistency when you have management like that. Until they get it sorted at the top, I think Pakistan are going to go through a really difficult time. The one thing that I will never doubt in Pakistan, they will have talent. They'll have plenty of players to pick in the future.

Uh, Michael, Jimmy, thank you very much. Enjoy your 2 days at Edgbaston.

Only 2, is it? Might be quicker than that.

This goes beyond what the KGB did back in the days.

Conspiracy theories and the Football World Cup. Is there ever one without the other? Well, I've been digging into one of the very best back in 1994. Guy from Iraq gets a red card for a, you know, a dubious tackle. I'm James Montague, and from BBC Five Live, this is Sport's Strangest Crimes presents Shadows on the Pitch. Listen on BBC Sounds.

Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts.

You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.