Dominant England set target for Pakistan at Edgbaston

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

September's always busy. Whole Foods Market can help. Their September Stock Up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful, nourishing food. Even better, there are hundreds of sales. Get dinner going with canned soups and veggies. Lean on frozen pizzas, pastas, and seafood everyone loves. Their Build Your Own Family Meals feeds 4 for just $35. Stock up at Whole Foods Market.

Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, the ball facts are that Pakistan are facing another defeat, 52 for 2 in their second innings. They're still 268 runs behind after England made 453 with half-centuries aplenty— Gay, Brook, Lawrence, Smith, and Ollie Robinson, who can do no wrong, it seems, in this series. Even Joffre Archer chipped in with 32. They're not out at the end. And then Pakistan lost 2 wickets in their first over, both to Robinson. Ayub driving, caught by Brook at slip. And then Abdullah Shafiq was caught low down by Root at slip. Root fielding at first slip in place of Duckett, who dropped Shan Masood on 13 off the bowling of Atkinson, who you just can't get a wicket barely in this series. Just got the one so far. That's Duckett's 3rd drop of the match. Jonathan Agnew is here. Alistair Cook is here. Rameez Raja is here. Let's start with you, Jonathan. I mean, the story has not changed today at all.

No, it hasn't really. It's rather sort of uninspiring. It's a shame, isn't it? And that's, you know, teams do go through cycles like this. England have been through a cycle like this. And it's a question of, for Pakistan, how they do build and come back. from this, um, you know, it's not, it's not all doom, all doom and gloom for them. I thought actually the way that the— that Shaan and Azaan batted here this evening has been— was good. You know, they were busy, they were positive despite the fact they were 0 for 2. Uh, Razzaullah, of course, we've all been raving about him, the young fast bowler. Um, I just hope that when we do play Pakistan again in Test cricket, whenever that is— it hasn't been scheduled yet, has it? Um, that he's still there. I just hope that he's, he's still playing and he's still part of the setup and, and, and he's improved and he's learned. But, you know, he's something. He really is something that could come away from this tour as being, as being really positive. But there's kind of no guarantee that, that he, he will still be there. Um, such, such is the way that, that Pakistan cricket is, is structured, isn't it? But it's, you know, it's up to them. They've got to knuckle down and they've got to find a way of, of, you know, Mike Hesson, if he's able to, to, to roll his sleeves up. And we heard Jason Gillespie yesterday saying that that's a very difficult for him to do. There was interference. Well, they've got to let the coach do the job, and they've got to have a sensible selection policy and really just choose the right youngsters and give them time and space and so on. So that's for Pakistan to deal with. All England can do is beat what they're up against, and that's always the old adage, isn't it? You know, you can just beat what you face, and that's what England have been doing. It hasn't made for Say inspiring test cricket. You know, it's been a very strange summer really on the field. There's been lots going on off it, but on the field, you listed all those half centuries that were scored then. No one's made made a hundred again, which is disappointing from an England perspective. And you know, those batsmen who who got in and against this attack really should have gone on to have scored big scores. But I don't know, maybe they're just a little bit sort of uninspired like the rest of us by it, and so that's why they've got themselves out. But no, England England win. in the game, it'll be 3-nil. England will have got themselves back on track again to an extent, although quite how much we don't know. But again, I repeat it, you can only, you can only do the job that's in front of you and beat what's in front of you.

Yeah, and we've kind of written Pakistan off, or you have there, and I think we all sense which way this game is going, probably even Rameez as well. But that was actually a very impressive half-century partnership between Azhar and Shamsu, because at 0 for 2, after conceding a lead of 320 on, on first innings, You might have thought, well, yeah, Pakistan, well, it could be, you know, 40 for 5 at the close of play. But Azam played so well. Shams, you know, a bit of luck, he was dropped by Duckett, but they're still there. And I don't know, perhaps just putting this pitch into a bit of perspective. I mean, they made 400 on it, for goodness sake.

Yeah, I mean, it's a good reference point for the players in the dressing room that, look, if they can put up a fight, why can't we? But it's the mental fatigue, the fatigue of of relentless pressure that's— that England have exerted on them and being on the losing side, it can have an impact on you, on your makeup. Uh, you're just not good enough anymore mentally to put up a fight. Um, so I, I don't know, I mean, what will happen in the end. I was fearing for the worst tonight. I mean, there was still 40 overs to be bowled by England, and the maximum that they've batted in this series is around that 40-over mark. But you've got to put up a fight and take positives. I think Azaan Owais is certainly a positive for me. Saud Shaquille, because I always have known him to be good against spin, but the way he's faced pace bowling is a certain plus. Then you've got Razaullah, who's obviously— he's got a bit of talent, but still work in progress. What about Babar Azam? Babar Azam has been a big disappointment actually, and his batting needs to Uh, to be up to scratch come the better bowling attacks, because I think he's, he's not that great now against the short ball. And unless and until you practice the pull shot or sway away from the line, it's going to muddle up your entire setup at the crease because you're always looking for that length. And it's just not right for the captain to be sort of, uh, for the, for the opposition just to feel that, you know, here is Babar Azam, let's get a fielder back at square leg and let's bounce him out. That just pulls everybody down in the dressing room also. Shan Masood, well, he's got to come to grips with his batting. He's played 50 Test matches and, you know, he looks promising and then he loses the plot. So, um, Pakistan need to find a good spinner to become a wholesome bowling attack. So there are still puzzles that need to be filled up, but overall this is This has been a bit of a disaster.

Yeah, it has. Yeah, and the full house crowd coming along tomorrow, I mean, they'll be hoping that someone like Baba can, you know, give them something to watch really.

Uh, this looks a bit lost to me.

3 single-figure scores so far after his finger injury.

He's got all this stuff going on, you know, and as we know, the captains of India and Pakistan are under so much more pressure than the captains of anywhere else. And you know, it must be hard for him. He always seems very cheerful. He's got a big smile on his face and all that. You know, always comes and says hello. But inside, he must be thinking what is going on. You know, ever so hard. And it must affect his batting.

Absolutely. I agree as you, Razmi, about his batting actually over the last couple of years of starting to diminish in returns. But actually, you're going to have to take this game out of it for me. The captain, imagine walking. Out of that meeting when you've just been told that seven of your players are going home, you're bringing seven new in, and then you've got to be part of a leadership group of those players, or be in the dressing room, or be on the field leading those players after all that chaos where no one's certain about anything. He's not certain about his place or his future. Everyone else is looking around going, "Was it we played two bad games? Sending seven of us home next time." It's it's an impossible situation for anyone to manage, let alone a captain of cricket who. Then has to make however many decisions a day and then go out and try and be Pakistan's best batsman, which he is on paper. And he is over the last— historically, last probably 6 or 7 years, he's been the future of Pakistan's batting. So I do genuinely feel he's been dealt some cards which have been impossible to manage. And if he goes out tomorrow and scores runs, that's a real doff to him in terms of his mental resilience. Because that is— that was— he's had something which I just wouldn't know how you could look those players in the eyes. A, you're sending home. B, the players are coming in and have authority and have control. So he, the selectors, the administration have dealt him a real tough, tough deal. And it's not surprising. And I actually feared for them at 0 for 2. I genuinely thought, you know, the only way this game is going in tomorrow was, was the weather saving. I thought they'll just lose.

They actually batted pretty well.

And then to be fair, Jofra's first over actually was a poor over.

Mm-hmm.

It was, you know, he went for 12, but it wasn't, you know, didn't back up. He— if I think if he'd have nailed that over in as well and built pressure from both ends, you know, the crowd would have got right behind it. And I, I didn't know how Pakistan would have stopped that kind of that tide of momentum, but he kind of let them off a little bit. And those 2 played beautifully, dropped and run. They built that kind of fight. Um, it's only, of course, 12 overs, but— and that fight need to continue a lot more, but A little glimmer of something.

Yeah, I mean, cricketers and painters, I mean, they need calmness and quietness, you know, to create something superb. You know, this is a creative art as well, cricket. You're creating an innings, you're creating an impression. And so if there's turbulence and if there's no peace of mind, then obviously it'll show in the performance as well. And Cookie is absolutely right because it's a humongous task, really. 7 players who have not acclimatized to English conditions, and it's a far cry from subcontinent. You know, temperatures up in the 40s to come here and, and play in seaming conditions from batting point of view. And then what line to bowl suddenly? You know, you're asked to do the job at the highest level. It's almost an impossible task, not only for the captain but also for the individuals. So I mean, it just went pear-shaped for Pakistan. I, I think, um, So yeah, I mean, that's a major reason of disaster as well. You can talk a great deal about the technical aspect of the game, but the mental aspect of the game has been sort of badly hurt.

Yeah, we've seen one player come in, he's bagged a pair.

Yeah, again, tough, tough. It is possible though. It is possible to go around the world and play under short notice, but it's not easy. Yeah. Why are you laughing, Simon?

I think I know where you're going with this.

I wasn't going at all with it.

It was a great knock, Cookie.

I tell you what, you played well.

I wasn't even talking about me, but I was saying that probably the hard— it is possible to go out and play where the pressure's off in one sense, but these conditions, yeah, for a subcontinental player to come to the ball seaming and nipping in the top order against someone who's averaging 6 at the time, that's pretty hard.

We should just mark everyone's card. Those people wondering what we're talking about, Your first test, you came in from the West Indies. Alastair, how many did you make in that?

Well, I was, I was playing cricket and I was in condition. I scored a couple. Simon, let's move on.

Yeah, okay, he did all right in that game. Yeah, well, let's talk about England's batting, shall we? And let's look ahead to the future and how they're going to fit players in. So lots of half centuries in this innings. Dan Lawrence today with a 65. He played on to Imran, quite a wide ball, dragged it on, second drag on of the innings. He's come into this side this summer. There's Jordan Cox there as well. Jacob Bethell, he's waiting in the wings trying to get fit. He's had this knee problem. He's not going to be fit for a while. Um, and there's the South Africa tour, which is in a way this— well, it is this Test team's next big series, isn't it? And how they get on that, everyone will be watching, waiting to see how they get on in South Africa. How does it all fit together for you, Alistair?

Well, I think Bethel comes back in straight away. I think he's done that 100 at Sydney, 150 for me after missing a couple of games, playing those last 2 games. He is England's number 3. I think he's earned the right to come back into that place. He again, if we go back to the beginning of summer, he came back into the England side with no Red Bull cricket whatsoever. leaving the IPL, the end of the IPL, and coming straight into a Test match. We've got to— they've got to revisit some red ball practice for the majority of batters to produce consistent performances. That's— I don't think the argument will ever go away, and I don't think it should go away. But I think Bethel for me does enough. I think Dan Lawrence at 6 with his role as a spinner, although he hasn't been required, I think will stay at 6. And I think the one For me, Jordan Cox misses out in terms of, in terms of, of selection. I don't think he's— I think we've seen glimpses of it, and we— I think all of us in those couple of 60s he's got, or 50 he's got, there's a player there. But he hasn't done enough to knock the door down to say, I'm playing. And I like, I like kind of the, the hierarchical system. Heels in, so he plays, and then he gets— goes the chance. So I would take Cox as a reserve batsman. Gay's done enough to go again. For me, and I think Dan Lawrence, the balance of Dan Lawrence's spin with Bethel, so I would play the 4 seamers almost on most conditions in 7.

What about you, Jonathan? What do you make of what Alistair said?

Yeah, of course. I mean, for me, it depends on how much they are depending on Lawrence's spin. You know, I mean, he's better than a part-timer, but he's not a frontline spinner, and it is difficult to balance the side, of course, given the players that they've got and no no obvious all-rounder. So I think that probably does give Lawrence the nod over Cox, who's, let's face it, started pretty well. Um, but he is quite— I think the thing about Cox, and in some ways it's a good thing, but it can sometimes count against you if you're a bit of a utility player. If you can bat anywhere, then I think you often therefore end up batting nowhere. Whereas if you've got a specialist in positions, uh, then they, they tend to nail down their specialist position. So I mean, I do agree. I think, I think Lawrence I'm really glad he's been given a second chance. We've seen much, you know, much more of him now playing his natural game and his— in his natural position than we did before. And, and yeah, he's nice. He's a bit quirky, a bit different, a lot of leg-side stuff. Yeah, I think, I think, you know, opposition bowlers and whatever, you know, analysts are having a long look at that, and they will be looking at the sort of— he gets in some quite strange positions sometimes. Um, but he's, he's a shot player, he's free, and, and if, if the bowling is invaluable, and it probably is at the moment, not in these conditions, but probably will be more so in South Africa, then I think he, I think he plays.

So I think just you go back to the start of this selection under the new era of Joe Root. Sam Curran was mentioned about that if he was fit, he would have been considered for selection or been in the squad and then considered for the final 11. I think what these 3 games have done with the 4 bowlers, the 4 pace bowlers, is actually that is England's super strength in terms of that is where they are probably ahead of other teams. And I think what that has done in these 3 games, yes, against not the greatest Pakistan batting lineup, yes, on wickets with the help, but you're thinking actually those 4 seamers now are the 4 seamers that I think were part of their strongest team where they were Kind of considering balancing it with Sam Curran, and they might end up having to go to a kind of plan like that. But I think they will start the series at South Africa, if they can, with the 4 quick bowlers and then using Bethell and— or just Dan Lawrence, so if Bethell's not fit— as a spinner. Where I think beginning of this tour or this series, they, they weren't certain about that.

What do they do, England, do you think, if they come across a pitch that says— that screams play a frontline spinner? What do they do? How do they— because Ben Stokes' retirement means it's so hard to fit that frontline spinner in. Well, especially if it's a spinner like Shoaib Bashir, who doesn't really offer you much with the bat. If you can find a spinning all-rounder who's worth his place as a frontline spinner—

Well, that'll come more to play when they go to Bangladesh, won't it? And those little tours are difficult, the subcontinent, because they've got 2 Tests against Bangladesh that in the scheme of the year really are kind of irrelevant in terms of the team, because you're not going to be playing any more matches in those sort of conditions. They are undoubtedly going to spin square. They did last time we went, and that's, that's the way that Bangladesh play their cricket at home. But in terms of the relevance of South Africa, the one-off Test against Australia, 2 more Tests against Bangladesh here, and then the Ashes, those 2 games have no relevance. So I've always felt you were really careful about the teams that you pick and, and the relevance that you put on those 2 Test matches given the bigger picture. If you, if you go to Bangladesh, And a couple of batsmen struggle. I mean, Ben Duckett's quite a good example. The last time England went there, if you remember, he had really struggled, didn't he? Binned, gone, largely because they felt, well, he can't play spin bowling, he's all over the place. And he was, he was all over the place, so they chucked him out. And of course, he's, he's had a second chance and he's come good. So I just think they've got to be careful about those 2 Bangladesh Test matches. And, and whatever happens with them, yes, of course, of course you've got to win, and of course you want to win and everything else. But I don't think you must be knocked off your course by those 2 Test matches.

I don't think they're gonna knock off course, but all they have to do is play their best side for that. And if that means flying in the best 2 best spinners and then thinking, well, he's not going to go to Australia because you're not going to play the best spinner because you don't need to— someone like Jack Leach. I'm not saying they're gonna— this is what's gonna happen, but you say, well, Jack Leach is England's best spinner, he goes to Bangladesh, and that even if he does really well, there's We're probably not going to take them to Australia for that pink ball Test because that's not part of the long-term plan.

That's the thing.

They have to go there to try and win it because sides, good sides, and sides built— when they build something, they, they don't just ignore 2 Test matches.

No, of course, but you must be knocked off course by it. And we have been in the past. We've been knocked off course by the Test series going wrong in the subcontinent.

We've always lost in the subcontinent.

Yeah, but then the bigger picture gets affected. And because of the year that England have, I think they've got to treat those two games carefully. Of course, of course, they're going to play spinners. Of course, they've got to play their best team to win. But if Jack Leach gets seven wickets on an absolute square turner in in in C.L. Cot or wherever they're playing, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean he's going to play in Melbourne. But that's the way we've done it before, and they've got to be careful not to do that.

Well, Tuffers is with us as well. Where do you stand on this? You know, England not playing a frontline spinner. I mean, they are. I've got sort of Fillion spinners to some extent, haven't they? You know, Bethell potentially to come back. They've got Dan Lawrence there.

Um, well, it's an awkward one, isn't it? And it seems to be a real sort of thorn in their side trying to get that balance right, doesn't it? Um, I'm not quite sure. I mean, they're very, very lucky to have, you know, a quartet of seam bowlers who seem to be doing the job with things, but they'll be crying out for someone who can bat a little bit at 7 and bowl. I mean, Rayan Ahmed is the, is the one that they're hoping will really sort of like, you know, rise up and, and take that spot. You don't see too many great sides who don't play a specialist spinner, do you, really, in all conditions? You know, it doesn't matter whether it's green or whatever, you're always going to have a spe— you know, Graeme Swann with yourself, you know, he was virtually first on the team sheet just because it wasn't spinning. He was a very useful member to the side. So it is a— it's a tricky one for England, and they've got themselves in a bit of a corner, haven't they, with Bashir? They don't quite know, you know, when, when to play him. You know, if you're not going to play him in Adelaide last year, uh, where are you going to play him?

Well, I, I don't see how he fits in because his spinning is okay. You know, he's, he's a work in progress. And, and maybe like Graeme Swanny played a little bit at 22 but came back at 28 and was the bowler he was. That was Bashir, 22, 23. So I'm expecting maybe in 5 or 6 years' time that he could be that bowler, but because he doesn't bat very well particularly, or field great, you're— his match impact, I actually don't think is, is worth playing him. So that's why I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back to Bashir for a good couple, 3 or 4 years, until he's really learned the craft of spinning. Because, you know, just to be a batter, just to be an off-spinner who bats at 11, you've got to have serious impact on the game.

Yeah.

And if you, if you don't, I'd rather Fit it in with the 4 seamers and a couple of seamers. The England side, of course, desperately— to be considered a great side, you need a great spinner. But if you haven't got the spinner, don't just play him because of it.

As a skipper, do you like that quartet? Would you like a battery of 4 fast bowlers?

Yeah, absolutely. In the modern game, you know, when we played— in the modern game, how old am I? But in terms of, you could get away with 3 and 1. Because the spinner could hold an end because of— I actually think of the way batters play, the shots available to the batters now. I mean, they won't— they just wouldn't allow Graeme Swann, you know, to have just bowled, bowled like he did.

Yeah.

And just defended him and knocked him for 3s and bits because the modern players are so comfortable banging 6s that if it isn't spinning and they think it actually— I will take him on. You know, Swanny would have got him in the second innings, but in the first innings they wouldn't have allowed him to hold, hold an end up. So you Couldn't go with 3 seamers. So you do need the 4 seamers, I think.

Yeah, well, they have changed the way they play spin now, you know, and that reverse sweeps and switch hits and everything like that is very, very difficult for a spinner to do a holding job. You know, when I was playing, you know, you used to run up and perhaps, you know, be thinking to go 2, 2.5 and over. And sometimes when I first started playing Test match cricket on flat ones, they almost sort of patted your back a little bit, you know, because it was a bit more about time and, you know, using up overs and slowly getting towards a total. Nowadays, as Cookie said, they're just— they're teeing off on you. So you've got to— you've got to be able to make that impact even in the first innings. Otherwise, you know, why just— why just try and squeeze someone in who you're really only going to be looking to bowl 20 overs in the second innings?

Yeah, and to be fair, you look at England's fixtures— there is that Bangladesh series— but if you look at those other matches that England have got, I mean, they do scream out, don't they? 4 fast bowlers, really. 3 Tests in South Africa, it's normally about pace in South Africa, isn't it? And then over here, well, it hasn't always been about pace here because spinners have taken wickets. But, you know, what we've seen this summer, if we're gonna get something similar-ish next summer, then it will be about having the— keeping the 4 quicks fit and available.

Well, I mean, it's been the hottest August in record, hottest summer, and spin hasn't— still hasn't paid an impact. No, like, if it's not going to make an impact this year, when is it going to make an impact?

Yeah, perhaps it might be the art, a dying art.

Toughest?

No, what am I going to talk about?

It'll be a relic of the past.

Tougher, yeah, yeah.

But there are some good relics, don't worry.

No, yeah, I mean, you can see, you can see England playing 3 spinners virtually in Bangladesh.

Yeah, I mean, you can guarantee anything I say about that in Bangladesh is they've got a few, they've got some handy pace bowlers now.

Good side.

Yeah, but, but would they, would they do that against England?

I'm not going to take on England's 4 seamers against the side who doesn't have much spin. Yeah, I think they'll have spinning wickets, surely.

Yeah, think about it, Simon.

Yeah, but, but I said, but all I'm thinking is, I just kind of left field a bit, that, you know, for Bangladesh, I mean, they've just gone to the Australian one, haven't they, with sort of pace bowlers. So I think if you want to progress as a Test match team, we look— when we look at Pakistan, I mean, they, they play those last 2 Tests against England on, you know, spinning pitches. They've got the heaters out, they played on a used pitch. Yeah, look where it's got them.

So if Bangladesh want to Progress their cricket, but they'll play to their home strength.

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you?

But it is a bit. I know what you're saying. It is a bit short sighted, and I think that's one of the reasons why Pakistan keep going in this sort of like vicious circle because it's just like well let's just you know completely make it a lottery and hopefully we'll come out on on the side of it. But that doesn't do you any good in the long term.

Yeah, three days left. England have got this test match, haven't they?

Well, it's just, it's just flown along, hasn't it? You know, still got 3 days left at a lead of 320 with a session to go on day 2.

I mean, well, they're 2 wickets away from, yeah, from just blowing the rest away really on, on the, on the basis of the first innings and, and, and what the batting was left. Babar Azam, final chance for him. Don't suppose he'll play a Test match in England again. Uh, a chance to go out on a, on a high, and it'd be nice to see him score some runs. He's a lovely player. But he just seems so weighed down with it all.

Yeah, and there does come a time— how old's Baba now? How old's Baba? He's 30, what, 35 or so?

That's a good question. Yeah, I mean, tough. You've made me scramble for—

sorry, Dolce's sheet here. Your eyes do go a little bit, don't you? And you do get a little—

he's 31. I mean, he should be in theory in his prime.

Yeah, he should be. Okay, okay. But it just looks like his confidence is shot to pieces. And also now He's a bit windy against the short ball.

Okay, thanks very much everyone. Now we've been talking about Dan Lawrence who made another half century today, and he's been speaking with Eleanor Oldroyd.

Dan, congratulations on your 3rd half century of the series. Um, you're enjoying playing against Pakistan and being back in this team by the sound of it.

Yeah, loving being back in the team. It's obviously a pleasure every time you play for England. And, um, yeah, thankfully I've got a few scores. I would have liked to have got a few more today, but I'm really happy to You set off at quite a pace this morning.

There were even people talking about fastest ever century for England. Did you have a century in your sights?

Well, yeah, of course. I think every time you get into the 50s and 60s, you start thinking about it. I certainly wasn't planning on trying to score really quickly this morning. I just got into a nice rhythm and yeah, for about 40 minutes me and Brookie were going really well, so we just sort of rolled with it and, and yeah, thankfully it paid off for me.

You look pretty frustrated when you got out though.

Yeah, obviously bitterly disappointed to get out in the 60s. It's something that I've really prided myself on this season is kicking on when I get a start because obviously it's very hard to get starts when you're batting. Yeah, I really wanted to push on and make a big 100 today, but I think if you'd have offered me 65 at the start of the day, I would have taken it.

And actually it was quite a nice team effort, wasn't it really? 5 of you got 50s in the end.

Yeah, I mean, everyone played beautifully. Emilio set the tone really well up top. And then Brookie was doing his thing, and then a few of us played around him. So yeah, to get 450 on the board on a wicket that was tricky yesterday was a really good effort.

We don't know whether you'll get to bat again in this Test match, quite possibly not, but there will be conversations about going forward into the winter and the England batting lineup. Do you— are you happy where you are in that lineup, or are you just happy to be playing for England again?

Oh, well, obviously the latter. I'd be happy to play and bat anywhere. But yeah, I feel like number 6 suits my game really well. It's a position that I'm more familiar with, and in the knocks I've had this summer, I feel like I've given it a pretty good crack. So yeah, I'm really enjoying it for now.

Give us an insight into what the dressing room feels like this time round compared to the last time you were in the team.

Yeah, I mean, the atmosphere has always been great whenever I've been involved. It's obviously brilliant when you're winning and everyone's in high spirits. Yeah, I mean, this group has been working really hard away from the, away from the pitch and thankfully it's showing in the results.

And assuming that you can get things done tomorrow and wrap up that 3-0 series victory, what will that say for the way that you've come back from quite a turbulent start to this summer, certainly as a group, even if you weren't part of that first part of the summer?

Yeah, I mean, getting a 3-0 win would be an amazing effort. I feel like we have been really dominant this whole series and I feel like if we do get the 8 wickets tomorrow, I feel like it'd be a very well-deserved 3-0. I feel like we've been the better side throughout, and we've got one big last push to do to complete the 3-0 victory.

And do you feel like you've booked your place on the plane to South Africa?

Well, you never know. You never know. Nothing's ever guaranteed, but I'm fairly happy with how I've performed. I haven't quite bowled the overs that I was planning to, but our big 4 bowlers have bowled beautifully. So if I get selected for South Africa, then great. And if I make the XI, then even better.

And you're going to bring your bowling boots if you go?

Well, let's hope so. If the 4 quickies keep bowling like they are, maybe I won't need to bowl as much as I thought.

Well done, Dan. Thank you so much.

This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

September's always busy. Whole Foods Market can help. Their September Stock Up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful, nourishing food. Even better, there are There are hundreds of sales. Get dinner going with canned soups and veggies. Lean on frozen pizzas, pastas, and seafood everyone loves. Their build-your-own family meals feeds 4 for just $35. Stock up at Whole Foods Market.

Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Now, over at Lawles today, we've had finals day at the inaugural Barclays Knight Stokes Cup, the new national state school competition, and we sent Henry Moran to find out more.

Well, here standing in front of the famous Lord's Pavilion, this is a very special day for 4 sides of under-15s cricketers who have made it through to the inaugural finals day of the Knight-Stokes Cup. T20 cricket played exclusively by state schools. 1,100 different teams entered this competition when it all kicked off way back in April, where on to the finals day, and sides representing areas Yorkshire, Cheshire, Buckinghamshire, Essex, so right around the country in action in men's and women's tournaments. It's been a really special day. Good numbers have come in, friends and family and school children invited by the MCC, and, and certainly no question about it, it is the sort of day that does remind you of the talent that is out there. if given the opportunity to play. I've been speaking to Michael Vaughan, former England captain, who is one of the key figures behind the tournament.

The state sector is, you know, where I was from back in Sheffield, and, you know, it was, it was a glaring kind of miss that it's never happened before. So a group of people got together. The MCC have been absolutely magnificent, first and foremost, to agreeing to give up this incredible venue for the finals. That was a 2-second conversation, straight away they said yes. And then a group of really important people got together, the Blackheart Foundation led by Rick Lewis, and then a group of people. And the logistical side of, you know, just saying, oh, we're gonna have a state school tournament and it just happens— doesn't just happen. You have to have a lot of people logistically putting all the tournament together, getting all the applications in. To have over 1,100 teams in the first year, over 400 girls' teams, was well beyond what we all expected. I think we'd have settled for 200 boys and probably 50 girls in the first year. So it just shows you that there's a real appeal and a want in the state sector for cricket. The amount of dedication from the independent school sector as well to give up grounds— we've used club facilities across the country for The state schools that don't have facilities have been able to use club facilities, which has pretty much been gifted for this tournament, which has been great. We've had a final day at Headingley, at Wormsley, and obviously this is incredible to think that we've got 4 teams playing here at the home of cricket. We've even got the weather sorted. The tournament's gone far too rosy for the first year. It's been remarkable how everything has fallen into place. But It is so important that cricket appeals to everyone. It's so important that the state sector is looked after, and with 1,100 teams this year, I like to grow things, and hopefully over the next year or so going into 2027, with it being an Ashes year for both the men's and the women's, we hope to get over 1,500 to 2,000 teams next year. So there's still a huge amount of growth in this. This is our inaugural year and it's gone incredibly well, but But there's still a lot of work to do to make sure there's more schools that can enter.

Why does this matter to you personally?

I went to a school with a load of footballers really, and the only reason that they came into the cricket team was because they knew that they could miss history or chemistry on a Tuesday, Wednesday afternoon. But what that brought was a group of mates who actually weren't cricket fans back then who are now. So this is obviously— we can produce the next Nat Sciver-Brunt or Harry Brook, fantastic, that'd be great. But it's more about making sure that cricket is growing in terms of a fan base. And, you know, if you play at school, there's a lot of research that tells you that if you do something at an early age, you're going to remember that forever. And if we can get more people playing cricket at the age of 12, 13, 14, 15, we're going to gather a few more fans along the way and people that love the game of cricket, whatever the format. it may be. This is obviously T20 cricket with the pink ball, club clothing, absolutely fantastic. And every single person that would have played in this tournament will know more about cricket, and if we can grab them into being Test match cricket fans in the future as well, that's going to be great as well. But it's just, it's nice to know that I went to a school which was a state school in Sheffield, and we had a really vibrant economics teacher called Mr. Kent, and he drove our cricket team. We had some sports teachers as well. But this is what this tournament's been all about. It's not necessarily been all about the sports teachers, it's been about cricket-loving teachers that have gathered teams and probably pestered a few of the students, say, come on, let's put a team in. Probably the other way around as well, where students have gone to teachers and said, come on, can we have a team in that tournament? Which is great, and I hope that's going to obviously grow in the future. But to see so many kids here at Lord's, to see so many teams enter, we've had a summer to dream of in terms of weather. So lots of games have happened. We haven't had to have too many bowl-offs, which is good for the game. Yeah, and to see so many smiley faces playing the game of cricket, it doesn't get much better.

Well, somebody with a very special interest in the women's final is the former England all-rounder Katherine Siverbrunt. She went to one of the schools involved in today's final, Penistone Grammar, and I've chatted to her about exactly what it all means.

It's about providing opportunity where there isn't any. You know, people are engaging, we're getting cricket into schools, which has been going on for years, but this is the first national hardball tournament, so I'm really, really excited about seeing the girls here play at Lord's. Probably going to pass me at this tender age of how many times I played here in not so long, so yeah, it's really exciting and great to see.

Playing at Lord's, it's a really special thing, and actually The opportunity for these players to, to get through to finals day and do that, that's massive.

Yeah, I mean, if they, if they grew up enjoying cricket with their brothers or their dad or mothers or whatever, however it is that they followed cricket or didn't and are following now, they'll soon learn the importance of this place and this ground and how special it is. So I'm sure some of them will feel very honored, some of them will learn to know what that means, and I think that they even get the pleasure of being on an honours board in either the committee room or somewhere else. So that is an amazing feat. I worked my whole career to try and do that, and I managed it. So yeah, I think it's just all in all, it's just a lovely, brilliant thing to have done, and I'm so glad that Huw made this happen. This is like the very— I mean, there's playing for teams, there's playing internationally, but some things sometimes mean more than that. I remember Some of my best memories come from school or from playing for Yorkshire. It's not always about international dreams and trophies, so yeah, it's lovely.

And is it too difficult, do you think, for state-educated children to get the opportunity?

No, I think it's just about presenting them the opportunity, like this tournament's available and it's available for you to enter and compete in. So as long as your teachers are in the know and they're willing and able to put this tournament on, then it can be done. It's not necessarily something that requires a lot of money or investment, so in that regard it's very accessible. So yeah, there's no reason it can't happen.

In the future, the hope is this tournament will grow and grow and we'll see more state-educated children not just playing in competitions like this, but more established tournaments and professional cricket.

Yeah, absolutely. We all know the numbers behind private schools, don't we? Especially in the men's game, there's a lot of privately educated kids that come through that because of the facilities they have and the opportunities they're given. So this will certainly be a way to boost that forward and make it level par. And like you said, it will push those state and grammar schools through a little bit quicker.

That was Catherine Siver-Brunt speaking at the Knight-Stokes Cup finals day at Lord's. Now you can watch highlights of today's play at Edgbaston on the BBC iPlayer in Today at the Test, as well as on the BBC Sport website and app. Make sure you subscribe to the Test Match Special podcast so you don't miss any of our episodes, including our Pakistan top 10 and our look back on the tumultuous series in 1992.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.