England lead 'embarrassing' Pakistan

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So close the first day of the third test, England on Top.

Familiar story, but for an hour after tea, we had a genuine contest with 21-year-old pace bowler Razaullah impressing on his debut. He had Root LBW for 8 with his 4th ball in Test cricket. So Root, 8 out of his last 10 dismissals in Test cricket, LBW. Then the recovery, century partnership between Gay and Brook. Gay out for 60. And Brook at the close, 52 not out. This after Pakistan were dismissed for 133. Put into bat this morning, the lights were on, it was overcast, and England's bowlers wreaked havoc again. Pakistan subsiding. Their best partnership was 26 for the last wicket between Mohammad Abbas and Mohammad Ali. 4 for Josh Tongue, 3 for Jofra Archer, and Ollie Robinson continuing this excellent summer. 3 for 15 from his 11 overs. Rameez is here, Michael Vaughan is here, Jonathan Agnew is here. Um, Michael, what caught your eye today? Was it that spell from Raza Ullah?

Yeah, I mean, Pakistan have had no glimmer of hope, uh, in the series so far, but, uh, the young quick today has just given the Pakistan fans just, just something. I mean, to get Jairu out in your first Test over, uh, to bowl quickly, the spell that he's just delivered down the The back end of the day was tremendous. He could easily have had 2 or 3 more with the ball that flipped past the outside edge on a couple of occasions. But, you know, he's the real kind of star for Pakistan today. But, you know, you can't go far away from the batting again from Pakistan, which has continued throughout the whole series. They just don't look like they've got any confidence against an England bowling attack that is full of confidence. These balls seem to be doing a little bit more than we've seen in previous seasons. And it's really that Pakistan batting lineup that's shot in confidence. England are kind of realizing that, and they're being ruthless, and that's a good sign for the England team. I like the fact that the batters were challenged, you know. Mohammad Abbas, that last spell there, that last 20 minutes, I'd say, I watched down and thought, Harry Brook, what's he going to do? How's he going to play? Well, he went against his grain. He played the situation how he should be playing it to make sure he's there tomorrow morning. And that was a sign for me that this England Test team has changed already. You know, under Joe Root and Stephen Fleming, there was definitely a movement in the way that Harry Brook played that last 20 minutes. In the past, he'd have been dancing down, playing a few tricks and flicks. Well, you could clearly see against a world-class bowler, it was like, over my dead body am I going to get out. He was playing and missing. It was awkward. He was losing his balance. But he's there tomorrow morning. And that's what you have to do in Test match cricket for your team to make sure that the opposition don't have what they want tomorrow morning, which would have been Harry Brook out tonight. Now they know that Harry Brook's arriving tomorrow morning by just showing a bit of mental toughness in that last 25 minutes.

Rami, it's England's day, uh, quite clearly. Were you heartened by what you saw from Pakistan, uh, with the ball today? Not so much with the bat, but with the ball.

Yeah, I mean, with the bat it's the same problem actually. So you've got to give some runs for the bowlers to bowl at, and so that didn't happen once again. Bowling was obviously much better. Razzaullah, from nowhere, we've produced another gem. Let's hope that he maintains his fitness because there have been so many fast bowlers that have come through the ranks at times from nowhere, have done well for a season, and then they've subsided. So there's a lot to like about his bowling, his spirit, uh, you know, that, that slinging action. I think he can bowl a good reverse bowling spell as well, and he's got pace, um, and a lot to like about what he delivered today.

It's easy to say, oh, where's he been? But he's only 21 and he's only played 8 first-class matches.

I mean, that's the process that, you know, we have followed generally. Um, you know, the structure doesn't always provide you with a lot of, uh, hope, but from nowhere, because it's such a vast area, Pakistan, and so you, you get cricket being played in, in Balochistan, in, in, uh, and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, elsewhere also, that, you know, one would find his way through muscle his way through the, um, the, the process and, and produce something like this. And so we've been lucky. But I think you've got to call it selection faux pas, really, to not include somebody like him, because he's been in the circuit for a year at least. He's played a lot of white-ball cricket. But to not nominate him for England tour, considering that it was always going to be a one-dimensional Mohammad Abbas medium-paced lead bowling attack. It was just madness, I think.

Yeah, I think that's the point, isn't it? He, he was a point of difference.

Well, that, that, that for me is Pakistan cricket, you know. For, for many generations, they've always been able to produce a, a player or a bowler in particular from nowhere, and he's just lit up the day. Even though Pakistan have had the worst of the day and are well on top, you know, we're, we're talking positive, positive probably for the first time in the series about Pakistan cricket, because that is what we expect from Pakistan— a bit of spirit, a bit of fire, You know, a little bit of aggression, a bit of pace. Even when he batted, when he walked out the back, I mean, he tried to launch a couple out of Birmingham. But that is what we've come accustomed to with Pakistan cricket, so it was great to see. But, um, you know, England lead by 23, 4 wickets down, and Harry Brook's still out there, so Pakistan are chasing the game.

Yeah, Raza-ul-Haq, he tried to whack 2 in the last over before lunch. Oh, that was the remarkable thing. What caught your eye, Jonathan?

Well, that obviously. I mean, I just love watching young fast bowlers. I remember First time I saw Shoaib Akhtar in Sharjah covering some sort of nondescript one-day tournament, I think it was. But wow, what is this? Tearing in and bowling so fast, you know, and it just captures you, doesn't it? I mean, you remember when you do see a young fast bowler for the first time. Who knows what will happen to Razzaullah? You know, he's 21 years old. Goodness knows.

Yeah, lots can go wrong, can't it?

Of course. But it sounds— people saying, oh, for goodness' sake, stop being ridiculous. But there's lots of— I Thought about about the way his action that is that is Waka, and he doesn't run as far as Waka. But but I'm talking about the vital bit where he lets the ball go and the pace that he bowls. You know, ninety ninety one miles an hour. That's Waka Yunus, and where he lets the ball go. That's that slingy sort of delivery which which so many successful Pakistan reverse swing bowlers have had. But particularly Waka, he comes from that low trajectory. Uh, which makes it pretty, you know, a handful with a new ball, but particularly a handful with the old ball with the reverse swing. And I'm not saying he's the next Waqar Younis, that's ridiculous. But there, if people are trying to close their eyes and imagine what we've seen today, we've seen a young man who actually has got a lot of what Waqar Younis brought to, to cricket and to Pakistan fast bowling. And that, that has been lacking. I'm with Ramiz. Why on earth he wasn't picked in the first place if they'd known of his existence seems extraordinary. We just watched him, you know, some handy trundling over the last, the last month. But look what happens when you get someone like that in, and he's got, he's got character and confidence. He's bowling at Joe Root, you know. If you think you might, you know, if you were him, might have a few at Emilio Gay or somebody, you know. But bowling at Joe Root in your first over, first 3 balls are bang on the money, absolutely bang on, full, straight. Root's hurried as he defends them. 4th ball, bang, LBW and gone. It was, it was a really dramatic Uh, intro. And let's, let's hope it, let's hope it continues, it builds on it.

Yeah, and we, we did have a genuine contest, didn't we, for half an hour, 3/4 of an hour?

First ball, and that was a quick ball, hurried him inside edge, pad, the ball rolled away into the leg side, didn't know where it had gone. Yeah, and he made things happen. There's almost a run out when he was bowling. All that sort of stuff happens when you've got genuine pace bowling. The batsmen get a bit flustered.

Is the, is the Waka Younis comparison a fair one? Ravi?

I mean, yeah, I mean, um, there's a lot to like about his slinging action, and I just hope that, you know, he produces that reverse swing spell also, maybe, uh, in, in suitable conditions back home in, in Asia. Uh, but yeah, I mean, he's got the speed, he's got that natural length which is up to the batsman. He doesn't have a lethal bouncer. He's not— I mean, you know, with that slinging action, it's not going to get that awkward bounce. So his best bet is to bowl within the stumps And look to bowl that yorker or that reverse swing, you know. If the ball gets older, I think we'll see another great spell from him.

Yeah, well, it's something to encourage Pakistan anyway because it's been slim pickings so far on this tour. What about Joe Root, Michael? Another LBW.

Well, I watched him against Mohammad Abbas where the keeper stood up, and he was certainly batting more on the leg side to, to kind of nullify that LBW, and he played nicely against Mohammad Abbas. So He's overcome— the keeper stood up, probably hasn't batted for a long period of time, but it looked to me like his technical side was fine for that. He went back to, I guess, his more normal kind of maneuver onto like middle and off stump, um, to the young quick, and it did for him. You know, it's been a kind of a common trend throughout the summer with Joe's head just going over to the offside. He kind of pushes his bat just out and it just clips that pad. Um, that was pace that did him today. You know, I think he got shocked in that first over. Look, we'd never seen him, Joe's never seen him. All of a sudden he's facing this young quick with a different action, and it just stood for him. I wouldn't be too concerned about that because, you know, I think from what I saw with the keeper stood up, the technical side of Joe looked a little bit better. So even though he didn't get a number today, I'm confident that he's worked on that keeper stood up tactic and the technical side of that, and he looked a little bit better with that today.

Alistair is here as well. Alistair Cook, what about that assessment there from Michael about Joe Root's batting, the sort of technical side of it really, the problem he's had this summer of getting out LBW consistently?

Yeah, I mean, who are we to actually comment too much on his technique in terms of what he delivers? But just—

You are England's second leading run scorer.

Well, I, I— he stayed leg side of it, which I— a little bit more leg side of the ball. Because he has a little spot, and everyone has these little things in their technique where that ball is that perfect spot hits him on the pad when he because the keeper came up that was then hitting him in line and then hitting leg stump for most of his career he's been just outside the crease so then it hits him when it does hit him in line because it's got further to travel at exactly the same spot it goes down leg side so he's having to have to fight a little bit of a technique a slight change of technique things we stay leg side the problem when you stay leg side of the ball Is your mind instantly thinks you've got to push for the ball a little bit towards the offside because it's a bit further away. If you look at his first couple of balls for Abbas today, he fiddled. I think I was on air with you and he fiddled a 2 at the offside because he's not quite sure of his alignment and where his off stump is because it feels a long way away from him. Then when you're standing there and you think the ball's going to be 2 or 3 inches away from— further away, your head instantly then goes a little bit that way.

Towards the offside.

Towards the offside, sorry. And then your left foot then instantly keeps on going that way. So as much as he's trying to practice staying with his left foot not going too far across, you instantly are going that way. So for me, I, I wasn't sure he absolutely nailed that. I would like him, if I, if I had a technical session with him to do— and I'm not— there's, when you do a technical thing, there's always a bit of a You gain one thing, and what else then do you lose? And you're trying to always balance that as a batsman. So I would like to see him open his shoulders up a little bit, his left shoulder. And therefore, when you keep your left shoulder out, you then only turn it when the ball goes outside off stump. The minute— because he's quite closed off with his top shoulder, he then instantly turns every time because he's shut off. He turns his left shoulder into the ball. Therefore, that pushes his head. That way. So I would like to see our greatest batsman— if, and it might not work for him— just see what happens if he just moves his left shoulder a little bit out the way, a little bit more leg side. That'll open himself up a little bit to allow that back access to, to come to the ball there, and therefore that will keep his left foot outside. The problem about doing that is that he'll forgo a little bit of another bit of the game, which is he scores so many of his runs through the offside behind point, In front of point and behind point. And when you're at— when you do that, then you're hitting the ball straighter. You might not score. He might feel like you're not scoring from his, his super strength, which is through the offside. So as a batter, you go through this kind of period of like, is it worth changing for it? At the minute you're saying he's been LBW 8 out of 9. Do you say this is just conditions this summer, the ball, him in a little bit of different rhythm, or do you think, no, this is an issue I need to, to go and address? Then you go and work at it. If he was thinking about it and in the middle, that's when the problems start to occur, because you do all the searching and then you get to a point where, well, I'm just sitting watching the ball, and then you find your rhythm and flow again. You think, why do I bother doing the technical stuff? He's got 14,000 Test runs as well. So that's kind of the mental cycle he will be going through. And he might also— but he might see something in his technique thinking, well, this is what I want to do, uh, and this is what's worked for me in the past of doing it. So this is where Not one size fits all for a batsman, and you then have to work out what works for you and trust your instinct, whether that's working with Tres or a coach he has from Sheffield. If he was asking me, that's what I would say to him.

Well, that's expertly summed up.

But it might not work.

Yeah, but so if he does go away and try to work on the things you were suggesting, how long does that take to work through?

Well, it takes a time for it to become normal. That's the problem for a guy who's played so much cricket, you know, for it to become— feel natural. I don't think this will ever feel perfectly natural to him because he's done so much of his career the same way. And, you know, he's probably the only person who I could see technique-wise who hasn't— he's just tinkered and never really evolved too much. The same Joe Root I remember watching feels like I'm watching. He might have changed his hand for a little bit. It's all about him creating rhythm for him at the crease. So The strange thing is the technique stuff, when you look at it, when you're slightly out of form and not scoring runs, feels exaggerated what it is. You put Joe Root then batting when he's at his best, he probably does exactly the same movements that we've just— I've just picked up on, but he's found a way of getting through it. And then you get to 20, 30, and then the technique becomes oblivious. So yeah, I, I hope I'm trying to explain what a batter will then go through with the hours and hours of thinking about what he should do. And then just because you fix one thing doesn't mean you fix everything. It then might create another problem, and you're always trying to balance yourself through that.

It's incredible, isn't it, what this game does to you, Jonathan?

Well, it is. And when you look at it in simple terms, I can think back in the day of some tabloid writers who were saying he's missed 8 straight balls, you know, what's wrong with him? You know, you can put it down in those simple terms, can't you? Why is he missing straight balls? Uh, but though there is a common thread to most of them, most of them just Just cut back.

Definitely cut back a bit.

And that, that's what's, that's what's doing him. So, you know, rather than just, you know, suggesting that his eyes have gone, which you might have done in the old days, or some bowlers might be saying, go and get yourself some glasses in a bit of a quiet sledge, it is, it is a pattern. It is a pattern. And his head is just on that side. It's gone, it has just gone over there, and the ball nips back. And he is just, you know, in my very rudimentary batting terms, as a bowler— I mean, you as a bowler now, you would really be running up and bowling, you're bowling, you know, knit backers at him.

You would, um, with the keeper standing up.

Even you, Jonathan, even I possibly would stand in front, would agree to the keeper standing up, because it does make a huge difference, doesn't it? And it has been quite a dramatic impact on his batting to have the keeper standing up because of the DRS, because of the depth that he's now having to bat. So all of those— there's so many things that, that are coming into it.

And we're also seeing now the modern game in the last 2 or 3 years has really pushed on the fact that the knit backer is better than the swing away.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because you swing away to a batsman and it takes out 2 dismissals. You might bowl the perfect ball, but you can only get him nicked off.

Might not nick it anyway.

You might not nick it, you might play a miss. And I think Stuart Broad mentioned this somewhere recently as well. Everybody is suddenly coming to see the light over the last couple of years that the nick backer, if you miss it on the inside, you're bringing 2 players in. And those bowlers now are just constantly doing it. Not just Joe Root, every batter. In general, the knit backer, whether it's the left-hander around the wicket angling in or the right-hander, it's the knit backer has come— is so in vogue at the moment.

Well, we talked about Joe Root. We really should talk about Emilio Gay, who battled away for 60 today. Inside edge onto his back leg, onto the stumps. He finds, uh, some odd ways to get out. One way he's going to be out in Test cricket if he keeps on going is run out because he just dabs his bat rather than slides it in. But what about Emilio Gay?

I love Simon. He gets very angry club cricketer here, which is quite right though. I think on this one, he should— basic, isn't it?

If he'd have got run out like that, it's just a waste of a wicket. I liked him today. You know, he's— there's always an element of luck, isn't there, when you make your debut and what the conditions you faced. And we have to be fair to Emilio here. He's had some really tough conditions, had 2 pitches at Lord's which would— you know, I don't know what the actual official rating are, but we'll say they were minefields. A couple of other decent-ish wickets, but in general his Test matches have been on pitches with the nip. So it's become— it hasn't been an easy, easy start. I think he's shown glimpses of this, that certainly if you're watching from afar, like today in particular, his defensive game looks good. Plays the ball late, looks organized. He looks like a Test player. We saw the value of pace today, didn't we, on a pitch once he'd done all the hard work The value of the captain throwing a ball, ball 90 miles an hour. We've been talking about keepers up, keepers up. Yes, you can obviously initially, but then today keeper was up. He's batting nicely, had his nice rhythm, played against 80 miles an hour. Then suddenly a guy comes in 90 miles an hour, disrupts his foot movement, you know. And today he played the shot which he'll look back on probably with so much anger getting 60 today than he has done because there was an opportunity today. Yes, there's always opportunities. He'd done all the hard work.

He was in.

You were in after 3 hours. He played really nicely. And he'll sit there today saying, yes, I did play nicely. And you have to always focus that as a player. But deep down, that frustration today of getting out like he did will eat away at him. But he's done enough for me to take him to South Africa to continue that progress of a player where the pitches might be slightly easier to bat on. And he should open the batting.

Interesting. I mean, I was going to ask Cooky a question actually, because he is a very offside player. Isn't he? That's where he does score most of his runs. And I wonder if being left-handed, that could be an issue with new ball or not.

Well, in general, opening batsmen tend to score through the leg side. Not many in history succeed all the way with that being cover drive, the best shot. However, if you take Gay's innings and what I've seen of him, he's not hunting for that drive too often. He is actually— he waits for it to come into there. He scores off the backs of through the offside as well. And as his innings evolved today, he scored a couple of a bat he scores through the leg side and timed them through mid-wicket. So he does have this all-round game in terms of he can— he's not just limited to the offside. You know, it's just, you just get to the stage when you, when you're starting your career, you played 7 games or 6 games as he probably will at the end of the year without that big score, that starts us talking. It starts the talking in your mind. It starts talking in the selectors' mind. There's We can't hide away from it. But if you're looking at a player, you're not looking at a funky technique, you're looking at a— there's a lot of things you can like about him. For me, it's just he's on that line. He teets on that line. And over the next 3 or 4 games, he either gets that score and he goes again, or he doesn't get the score and he wasn't quite good enough. It's down to him, really. But there's enough for me to look at that and go, yes, we'll go again with him.

Okay, well, that's the batters. The bowlers set it up for England today. They bowled Pakistan out for 133. Robinson, Archer, and Tung. Amongst the wickets, Josh Chung, 4 for 42 today, and he's been speaking to Eleanor Oldroyd.

Well, Josh, 4 wickets, you took a catch, and then you get to lie down for nearly 2 sessions. So, um, that's not a bad day all round.

Yeah, it was a great day. Um, obviously I didn't come into the attack after they were 4 down, which is— it was— which is a nice feeling. Um, I felt I can be more attacking with my lines and lengths. And yeah, to bowl them out first day for 130-odd, yeah, it's an unbelievable effort.

You got involved early on. That catch that you took off Jofra early doors to get rid of Azan was a nice catch. Yeah, you don't get the credit for that really.

No, the lads were all over me really. I think I sort of picked it up fairly early. I knew I had to dive forward on those hard wickets.

Yeah, but your knees are okay though?

Knees are okay, a few scratches but all good.

And you had 3 out bowled as well, including taking actually literally the top off off stump on a couple of occasions. Does that feel nice when you see bits of the stumps flying?

Yeah, it's always nice to see the stumps, even the top of the stumps going or the whole stump going. But that's what I want to try and do for this team, try and keep the stumps in play as much as I can. And that's how we're going to get the wickets.

Which wicket satisfied you most? I noticed that Sajid Shaquille gave you a little nod of acknowledgement, didn't he, when you got him out?

Yeah, I'd say probably that one. He's an unbelievable batter and he was sort of going a bit hard at us as well. So to get him out was very crucial.

And as you say, Jofra Archer, Ollie Robinson gave you a great start. What do you make of the way that you're operating as a unit now?

Yeah, it's unbelievable. We complement each other really well. I think how we start with the new ball is unbelievable. And like I said, to get them 4 down before me and Gus coming on is a really nice feeling. Long may that continue.

And we mentioned that Ollie and Jofra are taking a lot of wickets as well. I mean, you've got 17 at 12 in this series so far. Gus hasn't had the success maybe that the rest of you have had, but do you still feel like you're working as a unit?

Yeah, we're working really well as a unit. I think Gus has been very unfortunate the past couple of Tests. A lot of play misses, and another day he could have picked up a hatful of wickets as well. But yeah, it's an unbelievable attack to be a part of.

What's gone so well for you, do you think? The fact that you've, you've taken those wickets and so cheaply as well.

I'm not too sure, to be honest. I think as soon as I get the ball, I want to try and make a big impact into the game and to put us in a good position to win Test matches for England. And I feel like with the bowling attack we got, I feel like everyone can do that.

Is there a leader in the group between the 4 of you?

We're all leaders. I've had this question quite a few times, who's the leader of the attack? But I feel like we're all leaders. One of the things that we try and do is communicate as well as we can to each other, if that's on the pitch or what we need to do better. And yeah, it's a good time to be a fast bowler.

Going into this Test match, there are a lot of changes in the Pakistan team, 3 debutants in this lineup as well. How much did you know about what kind of a team you were going to be coming up against today?

I didn't know too much, to be honest. But I always think we just try and focus on ourselves, and that's going to put us in the best positions to win Test matches for England.

In an ideal world, how long would you like to be resting tomorrow before you get out and get bowling again?

Don't really know, to be honest. There's still— there's obviously 4 days left in the Test match. We try and— obviously that first hour in the morning is going to be fairly crucial for us, and then we'll try and get a good lead.

And that partnership between Between Emilio Gay and Harry Brook have put you well on top, haven't they?

Yeah, Emilio and Brooky's batted really well there, put us in a really good position. And even Loz at the back end there, obviously quite tricky under the lights. But yeah, they batted really well.

Does feel like this has been a series for bowlers. Does this pitch feel as spicy as the ones that you had at Headingly and Lord's, or is it a bit different?

It didn't look it, to be when we first rocked up to the ground, um, it looked a, a really good wicket, um, and obviously winning the toss, um, bowling first, obviously a bit of pressure on the bowlers, um, but I thought we, we coped really well as a bowling unit.

Well, look, enjoy your rest and well played today.

Thank you very much.

Cheers.

That's Josh Chung speaking to Eleanor Aldred. Just on, just on Dus Atkinson for a moment, 10 for 168 in that New Zealand series, 1 for 156 in this series. Perhaps just one of those things because he actually has bowled well at times. Andy Saltzman, uh, with me for some final thoughts and some look at the, the stats of the day. You want to start with Ollie Robinson, who— landmark for him today.

Uh, yes, he— his first of his 3 wickets today brought up his 100th Test wicket, at which point his career average was 19.3. Uh, and very few bowlers in Test history have reached the 100-wicket mark with an average below 100. Most recently, Vernon Philander of South Africa is the only one to do it in the last 30 years. The last England bowler to do it was Ian Botham back in the late '70s, and the only other England seamer to reach 100 wickets with an average under 20 in Test cricket was George Lohmann, medium pacer in the very early years of Test, uh, Test cricket in the, in the 19th century. So extraordinary numbers, uh, for him. He's taken 26 wickets, averaged just under 8 this summer. His opening spells this summer Um, which wasn't always a particular strength of his. He'd averaged 26 in opening spells through his career. This summer he's taken 10 for 80 in his opening spells, uh, combined. So yeah, a superb performance from him once again, and it's helped inflict some frankly horrific batting stats on Pakistan. Also 14 wickets in the day, and make that the most ever on day 1 of an Edgbaston Test match. Pakistan's top 5 all out in single figures. That's the first time that that has ever happened to a team in the first innings of a Test match in England, and only the second time England have ever inflicted that on an opposition side when they bowled first in a Test. The other was a match in Australia in the '78-'79 Ashes. Um, the 5th time Pakistan have been bowled out for under 200. Um, that's the first time they've had 5 consecutive sub-200 scores in their Test history. Only— I make it only 2 other sides in England have been bowled out for under 200 in the first 5 innings of a series. That was the 1958 New Zealanders and the 1888 Australians. And their, their average score at the fall of the 2nd wicket this series, Simon, 11 for 2, um, which is the—

Feels about right, Zoltz. Feels about right, I have to say.

Which is the lowest such figure ever for a team in a 3-match series. England's 29 for 2, which is England's 5th worst ever figure in any series of 3 or more matches, and their 2nd worst at home after the 1888 Ashes. So England have been struggling, but not quite as much as, uh, as, as Pakistan, uh, have been. Um, and it probably didn't help when your top 5's been all out in single figures to have 3, 3 players coming in on debut at 7, 8, and, uh, and 9. They're the first team to have 3 debutants visiting team in England after the first Test of a series since Pakistan in 1954. One of those, however, Sean with the ball, as you mentioned earlier on, Razaullah has got Joe Root out with his 4th ball in Test cricket. A man with over 14,000 Test runs, another LBW, 10 LBWs to seamers in his last 8 Tests. He'd had just 3 in the previous 39. Razaullah's first spell, average ball speed 89.8 miles an hour. Since 2010, there's only been 3 quicker spells Spells of more than two overs by visiting bowlers. Those bowlers were Shannon Gabriel for the West Indies, Anrich Norkia for South Africa, and Dale Steyn, one of the greatest fast bowlers of all time, also for South Africa. So that puts in context quite how quick that was as an entry into Test cricket. Then picked up his second wicket in his in his second spell. So that's that that was a crumb of comfort for Pakistan. But Joe Root, that may be his Test summer of batting over. Not guaranteed that he'll get another go. He's averaging 27 this summer. That's his lowest average in a home test summer, and no century, um, for him in the 6 tests this summer. Um, and the first time since 2019 he's not scored a century in a home summer as it stands. Um, and, uh, yeah, so it's a, yeah, a curious, uh, curious summer.

It's—

but we've seen that, you know, a lot of Well, terrible batting stats from Pakistan, but England have. Yeah, I think Root stats put in context how difficult Pakistan have have have found it this summer. This summer as well.

Salts, thank you very much indeed. Time for a lie down. There was a lot in there.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio Five Live.

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The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio Five Live.

Well, the build-up to this game was dominated by the dramatic changes to the Pakistan squad, with seven players leaving the tour as well as changes to the head coach and bowling coach. Pakistan. Pakistan have had 25 different Test coaches in 26 years, including the former Australia bowler Jason Gillespie, who led the side the last time England toured Pakistan in 2025. Gillespie has been speaking with Jonathan Agnew, who asked him, given his experiences, whether he was surprised by what's been going on this week.

It's a great question, to be honest. I mean, the short answer is no. 'Cause decisions will be made from above, you know, if the result isn't what's wanted from whether it's the chairman of selectors or the PCB, decisions will be made and history has shown that. You only have to go back and look and these things happen when, you know, if a result or two doesn't go the way that the hierarchy want. That's what, that's what happens, I guess.

Yes, I mean, there's always been this sort of view of Pakistan cricket from, from, you know, from us all outside it, that it's kind of charmingly chaotic and, uh, you know, a bit maverick, um, you know, that sort of thing. Um, but it, it actually, I suspect, having been within it— well, you can answer this yourself— it perhaps it isn't quite as, as gentle and as kindly as that.

Yeah, it's an interesting take, that. I mean, look, when I was there, like, bear in mind, I wasn't there very long. You know, I was involved in 5 Test matches and then I was asked to— 'cause the coach moved on and I was asked to help out with the white-ball series in Australia because I was going back to Australia because there was no Test cricket and I was the Test coach. helped out in that series. But, you know, there just always seemed to be a lot of things going on behind the scenes and a lot of different messaging from a number of different sources. So I suppose as a coach, all you can do— and you'll hear this from every coach and I've heard obviously Mike Hesse and Ashley Nofke, I think— they've been put in pretty tough situations here. They've just come in and You know, they've gotta focus on the players and what's in front of them. You know, there's some decisions that— and things have been done, you know, before they've even got there. You know, as Mike said, there's some things that he's changed and that's his prerogative as the new coach. You know, a lot of things just seem to happen and all you can do, I suppose, as a coach is just focus on what's in front of you and the— What's first and foremost in your mind always has to be the players. Their welfare, how they're going, how you can help them get better and improve and play the best cricket they can play. And, you know, every coach will tell you that, Agus. Yeah. Because that is genuinely the forefront of your mind. And coaches traditionally don't have much time for the external stuff. The, you know, the chaos, so to speak. 'Cause they just wanna— Protect the players. That's what you wanna do as a coach. You wanna make sure that the players are backed, supported so they can go and put their best foot forward on the field. So you wanna make sure everything is in place off the field to allow them to do that. And when you have, I suppose, external voices all coming in and having their opinions and thoughts and people in prominent roles outside the team making decisions It makes it very hard for the consistency on the field. I've always said, Agus, for consistency on the field, the best teams in my experience in our sport, the best teams and the most consistent teams are the ones that have consistency off the field. That gives them the best chance to have consistency on the field.

Yeah. Presumably, you kind of were aware of I don't know, the issues, or at least the difference, if you like, between the way that Pakistan cricket works and, and like Australia or England work. The sort of, you know, they clearly are organized differently. Presumably you knew that before you took the job?

Yeah. Oh, look, I, I knew it was, it was going to be different. I, look, and I make no bones about it and no apologies, I went in with my eyes wide open. I knew that, um, things were done differently. I accepted that and I knew that. I just saw it as a wonderful opportunity to help these players and help the national team get better. An opportunity to be involved in Test cricket and to help the players improve and get better. Because as a coach, that's what you're there for. You wanna— you love the game and you wanna help players improve and get better. And you wanna help the team do well and, you know, play well. That's always at the forefront of your mind. And acknowledging as well that you're going to a different environment. I've been fortunate enough to coach in a lot of places around the world, Agus.

Yes.

And to say Pakistan was unique is an understatement. It was very different to anything that I've experienced. Look, for the most part, Agus, I can honestly say I had a wonderful experience. You know, I loved working with the players and the coaches I was coaching with. You know, it was all fantastic and— but then once these outside influences started to come in and started to basically take over, that it compromises how you work with the players and how you can do your job effectively. And so that's what, you know, the external influences make it hard. And that's why, you know, I've always been very protective of players.

Yeah.

And I really feel— I'm watching the game here, seeing the score at lunch here, sitting here in my lounge room in Adelaide and it's heartbreaking to see 'cause I've worked with a number of these players and I know how hard, how desperate they are to succeed and perform well for their country and to see them battling and see them struggling, knowing with all the stuff that's gone on off the field.

Yeah.

You know, no wonder, you know, the team's battling on the field.

No, of course. There is still quite a strong political link within the cricket board and, well, and the government in Pakistan, isn't there? I mean, the chairman of PCB is the Minister of the Interior. I mean, is that link with politics and the running of the country and that sort of connection, is that an issue in your experience?

Oh, look, it's hard for me to speculate Agus, as I was only there for a very short time. But, you know, I don't know. And look, I can't compare it to— I know my experience in Australian cricket and my experience in English cricket, for instance, you know, those 2 instances where I've spent most of my time coaching, you know, there's been zero sort of influence from a political space. So that was a very, Going to Pakistan, that was an incredibly different experience for me. It's not for me to say whether that's right or wrong, better or worse. But as I said, you know, consistency, you know, if you want consistency on the field, you need to have consistency off the field.

Yeah. Just the last one, Jason. I read that you said that you lost a lot of confidence yourself following the Pakistan experience. How are you getting on now?

Haggis, yeah, look, I'll be honest. I've been very open about it. You know, I battled after that. You know, I questioned whether I wanted to ever be involved in coaching anymore. You know, because there was, you know, parts of that experience were absolutely fantastic, were exhilarating. And, you know, working with the players and developing those relationships with the players was an absolute highlight.

Yeah.

dealing with the other stuff with the external people. And, you know, I found that incredibly challenging, incredibly deflating. And yeah, I questioned whether coaching's something I wanna do going forward. And I've dipped my toe back in. I went back, you know, like 18 months later, I was involved with earlier this year with the with a franchise in the PSL. And the franchise owners were brilliant and learnt a lot in that experience and had a lot of fun. And I've dipped my toe back in the MLC in America and things like that. So I'm still looking at those opportunities, but I'm still, I'll admit, I'm probably a little bit, still a little bit scarred from that experience. But I'm sure time tends to sort of heal in a way. And it's something that, it'll never go away. I love working with players and helping them get better. And working with coaches, fellow coaches. So one day, if the right opportunity comes along, then I'll certainly look at it. But at the moment, I'm enjoying doing my work on the radio here in Australia. and, you know, doing some tour groups and the like. So, so that's good fun.

Well, that was Jason Gillespie. Today at the Test is on BBC iPlayer, plus you can watch highlights on the BBC Sport website and app. Look out for our other pods, including our Pakistan top 10 and our look back on the tumultuous 1992 England-Pakistan series. We're back on air from 10 AM for the highlights half hour, with build-up from 10:30.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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