Cox and Root guide England to clean sweep despite Edgbaston scare.

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This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So England got there in the end. They won by 8 wickets with half-centuries from Joe Root and Jordan Cox to win the series by 3 matches to nil. There were times today when it was just a little bit iffy for England. It was 2 for 2 at one stage, and then 36 for 3 potentially when Joe Root was bowled, but it was a no ball, and that was Pakistan's last opportunity really. How do you reflect, Jonathan Agnew, on this series?

Well, I, I really enjoyed the last couple of days. I mean, I think they've been, they've been absolutely, absolutely fantastic. And Joe Root's here. Well, well done, he got there.

Yeah, we did. And, you know, actually, if you look at the toss on day 1, it looked a good pitch. And if you said we were going to be chasing 130 in the final innings, we're definitely taking that. That being said, fair play to Pakistan. They threw some punches last night, made it very difficult for us. And it has— in some ways, it's a good thing for us to go through that. Test cricket's not— oh, you're not always going to have your own way. You're going to have good surfaces to come up and find different ways of taking wickets. And, um, but, you know, to see us actually be quite clinical with the bat off the the back of that as well was, was good too. So in many ways, um, I think we're better for it.

Does that include yesterday afternoon? Because we must talk about that, because that all seemed a bit chaotic there towards the end.

And sometimes that's what happens in those, those late stages. It's, it's become more and more frequent within, you know, modern-day cricket, as guys can bat all the way down. It's not— no disrespect, but it's not like it was maybe 50 years ago when you have— you had bowlers and batters. It's more all-rounders now and more guys that we obviously didn't have a lot of information on, on the young fella, and fair play, played some wonderful shots. You know, obviously roadies look a little bit— but a lot of plays and misses. Maybe we could have gone to maybe slightly different plans, but we'll learn from it. And, you know, we find ourselves in another situation further down the line, and we'll have something else to go to. Maybe look more into white ball stuff and maybe have a few more specific plans to teach batters. But as I said, we didn't have a lot of information to work with.

No, of course.

And I do think we'll be better off, you know, having that experience in the bank. And like I said, Test cricket's not meant to be easy. You're not supposed to have it all your own way all the time. And the last 2 days almost felt like normal Test cricket again. You have to work hard for your wickets. If you get in, you should be able to score runs and feel like you can make a valuable contribution and not feel like you're waiting for that good ball all the time. So But that being said, throughout the series the batters have stood up. I know we've not got a guy gone on and make a really big 100, but you know, that's been across the board all summer. There's not been many of those kind of situations and pitches where that's been available to happen. And actually, the fact that everyone has got a score and contributed and shown that they have the quality to perform the Test cricket is also a good thing too. So of course there's things that we'll want to improve on and look at, but at the same time, we've come into this series A lot of question marks around the team and stuff, and we've walked away 3-0 quite convincingly. So in that respect, I'm quite happy.

Tell me a word about Jordan Cox, actually, because he really played well there with you just now.

Yeah, he did. Showed great maturity and has done throughout the, you know, the whole series, really. And to say he's not had much experience batting at number 3 in some of the conditions we found ourselves in as well, the manner in which he's played has been outstanding. And today, I'd say great composure, great maturity. 2 for 2, you know, is the only way back in for them was A start like that and the way that I think the way that we both handled it, but him in particular, was brilliant.

How do you reflect on this summer, Joe? I mean, now you haven't had a sit down and a proper sort of reflection. Well, you might in your armchair tonight, but here you are, September, you're England captain again. Yeah, you won 3-0. Fantastic. But when you look back at the whole summer, I mean, you wouldn't have expected this, would you? Not at all.

I mean, when you all know that initial reset No, but sometimes this game throws things at you, and when it does, it's sometimes how you respond to that. And as a group, I think, you know, where we found ourselves coming into this series, a lot of change, a lot of sort of uncertainty and things up in the air and noise around the group. And as I say, to come into it with little preparation at the back of the 100 and to be as convincing in the wins that we've had has been, has been really good. And I think you've got to take it for what it is sometimes. It's not necessarily gone how you'd expect the summer to go, but we've come out of it 3-0 with some really exciting tours this winter and, you know, a lot, a lot of things to take from it.

Do you feel that it is kind of back on track again? You're back on the rails, you're happy where you are?

Well, to be honest, we're not the finished article. We're not going to kid ourselves.

I was talking more of the image really, and then the whole question of what's been going on this summer.

And that'll be a constant work on, you know. I think the culture of this team, It's not something that's going to happen just overnight. It's going to be something that we're going to have to live and breathe day in, day out. And, um, but, you know, there's no reason why we can't. It's a good set of lads, really good guys that work incredibly hard. And as I say, performances like this and, I guess, commitment to what we're trying to achieve both on and off the field is what will earn trust and respect back from everyone that supports us.

Are you glad you've taken it on?

Yeah, I'm excited for it. Like I said, you know, it's different this time around. I'm looking forward to Steven coming over and getting to work with him a little bit more closely. We've obviously spoken quite a lot over the phone, but, you know, over the next little while it'd be a good opportunity for us to get to know each other a little bit better and start preparing for the winter now.

See you there. Thanks for talking to us, Joe, and congratulations. Well done.

Thank you.

I'm here with Babar Azam, who as always has got a smile on his face. Well, there were some moments there, Baba, that were really very good for you.

Yes, we have a couple of good moments. I think we have bowled well, but I think first inning they cost us too much soft dismissal, and then we have come back in the second inning, and second we have batted longly, a few good performances. Like I think the good opportunity for for youngsters to play like quality bowler against quality bowler, get quality opponent. So he learn a lot and I think he's help in the future.

We talk about Ramazullah. I mean, crikey, he's he's captured everybody. I mean bowling and batting.

Yes, he's the raw talent. I think. Good for us because they have played a lot of cricket back home. They're playing first class and then they improve a lot day by day when we playing. You know, as a player, you play a lot of cricket, then you learn a lot of things. I think this match give him a lot of confidence because both side bowling and batting.

Yes.

So good for him and wish him good luck for rest of the Well, we all do.

We all want to see him progress. And the way that cricket is structured in Pakistan, with a lot of focus on white-ball cricket, is he a really good example of having to keep somebody in the red-ball game playing Test cricket?

Yeah, but, uh, not now. We are— before, we have a focus, uh, red ball, uh, rather than we have focus, uh, white ball. So the PCB and all of the stakeholders are trying to do A lot of red-ball cricket over there because we are coming back, going back home, and then we are playing first-class cricket after 1 or 2 days. We have our first class going on, so good for us for rest of the cricket because when we are playing a lot of red-ball cricket, then you learn a lot of good things. And especially few boys are staying here for playing county cricket. I think I heard about few players are stay here for Conti Cricket, so good for us.

Yeah, I mean, pace, reverse swing, uh, and he's young. I mean, he's got, he's got a lot going for him.

Yes, looking forward to him, uh, because, uh, before they come here, they have a small camp in Pakistan with the fast bowler camp, and then they recognize they might be difficult for England because the pace And then we carry on here. And I think you see a lot of talent. Yes, in batting and bowling. And I think when he's playing more cricket, the more experience.

Yeah, I just— last thought, it was a bit, a bit chaotic, the build-up with the players going back and so on. How will you look back on this tour, Baba?

Look, this is not our control. Our control is just See our things. How do I perform inside? How do perform as a team? And we are think about our things. Yes, sometimes it's different, difficult. But unfortunately is not your hand. But we are trying to do our doing best in the ground.

Well, it was a really good finish. Thank thank you much indeed. I look forward to see. I'll see you in Rawalpindi. Baba. Cheerio.

Baba.

Dan Lawrence from there.

Hello. Hello, Dan. Congratulations. I don't think I've had a chance. Well done on getting back in the side again, are they? So he's been really chuffed and wearing a man of the match makes it all worthwhile.

Yeah, absolutely. Great to be back in the team and I've really enjoyed my few weeks. I wasn't expecting 65 to be man of the match, but—

Oh, come on, it's a very good 65. It might have been that nice little wicket down the leg side. Yeah, it was a catch.

Yeah, it was nice to contribute. Yeah, it was nice to get a couple of wickets and take a decent catch and yeah, fairly decent all-round game.

Yeah, is that the first time you've taken the new ball?

No, it's not actually. We've had a couple of long fielding stints for Surrey this season where I've ended up taking it, but yeah, I think at that stage we were trying anything to get the 9 and 10 out, and yeah, thankfully it worked.

Yeah, absolutely. How does it feel to be back and to be batting in this position rather than that rather strange experience that you had at the Oval that time?

Yeah, it feels great. I also— I've also come into this series with a lot more form than I had before, and I'm really happy with my technique, whereas before I wasn't necessarily happy with the way I was going. Yeah, it's obviously more familiar to me, and it's something that I'm used to. And yeah, hopefully I can continue in that spot.

Yeah, and bowling-wise, being serious for a minute, I mean, you're really working on that. It's quite a key spot actually now, isn't it, yours?

Yeah, I mean, it's something that I've really, really tried to work on over the last couple of years. Obviously this series, our big 4 quicks have sort of blown them away most games, so I haven't had the chance to bowl overs. But if that's going to help me stay in the side and try and help contribute, then it's something I'm going to keep working and pushing on.

See you soon. Thanks, Andreas. Well played. Congratulations.

Here's Marcus Driscoll.

Marcus, thank you very much indeed for coming over. Well, that was interesting last day.

Yeah, yeah. You know, first sort of 10 minutes were a bit more challenging than expected, but I think we all knew it was a good pitch and we You know, fairly comfortable really of what we needed to do. But obviously just for that first over, um, just challenged us a bit. But after that, we did the job.

Yeah.

How have you found this experience, Marcus? You know, here you are, I don't know what— well, what, you're temporarily in charge. Does it feel temporary, or have you been able to really throw yourself into it?

Oh, very much into it. Yeah, it's, you know, it's been, uh, invested from the opportunity of getting that chance, um, and it's been brilliant. I have loved every minute, you know, the opportunity to, you know, look after the team You know, you're into everything. You're chatting with players, you're trying to work out plans, you're picking the heavy roller, whatever, all these different things that come around. And there's so much to do, but you know, you're just invested because it's, you know, the opportunity to do it. And they have to obviously come away with 3 nuls. It's brilliant for the team, so delighted.

I mean, you've been an assistant coach for a long time now, so to actually do the main thought processes has been fun?

Yeah, absolutely. I had the opportunity in the West Indies to do some white ball, and then And a little bit against Australia a couple of years ago. Test match is very different, you know, in terms of the structure, what you're trying to do, the, the build-up for it. There's a lot more time to plan and to try and structure everything that's happening. And obviously the pressure of the game. I think maybe in England we just have a great love of Test cricket that you want to succeed and win. And, you know, we have a great idea about what we're trying to do, and we've managed to do it over the course of this series. Everything that we wanted to do has come to fruition.

Does it feel more settled, Marcus? I mean, it has been off the field a bit of a crazy summer. I mean, everyone will accept that. Are things back on track? I mean, do you feel that you've got a squad here that's really focused?

Well, when we— when I first came in and, you know, we had this sort of transition from Ben and Baz, we just wanted to try and calm everything And keep it really simple and not try and get too dramatic with our plans. Get back into a bit of simplicity with our cricket and, you know, value the opportunity for the big scores, which haven't come. We haven't managed to nail that over the course of this series, but we've got a lot of consistency in good players. And gradually, game by game, we've sort of got better and done a better job. And I feel the team is moving in the right direction, definitely. It's always good when you have a series win, and to win 3-nil is great. It now hands over to the next phase of what's gone on, and this phase has been good and we've done what we needed to do. And then Steven Fleming can come in and now sort of carry it forward from here.

And do you have any idea what your role might be with the new coach arriving?

Not yet, no. We're still waiting. We've had various conversations with Rob Kee and people behind the scenes. I believe Steven's coming over in the next few days, and then obviously we're now moving straight down into the white ball into stuff tomorrow with practice tomorrow afternoon and then Monday morning before we get going on Tuesday. So, you know, we'll continue with this series— sorry, the next series, the Sri Lanka series— and then we'll see what's happening after that.

Okay, nice to talk to you, Marcus. Thank you, good luck. Right, Ollie. How many times have I interviewed you this summer, Ollie Robinson? Goodness sake, what am I going to ask you today? Well, congratulations, Man of the Series.

Fantastic. Thank you very much. Yes, it's my first one, so it's pretty special, and it's always nice to top it off with a 3-0 win.

Yeah, I mean, what, what sort of summer has this been for you? It's extraordinary.

It's fairytale stuff really, isn't it? I think earlier this year I wouldn't have expected to even be on the park for England, so to be here playing the series, a couple of Man of the Matches. It's just been amazing. And I think in a few weeks it will settle in. Right now it just feels so surreal to get these accolades and put these performances back on the pitch for England. So I also know the hard work's not done. There's a lot of work to keep doing. We've got a big series in the winter to prove to people again that I can do it and that we can do it as a team as well. So yeah, there's a lot of work still to be done, but it's great to get these accolades this summer.

Yeah. How much has the wicketkeeper standing up at the stumps actually helped you? And Not just here, but how much do you think it will help on harder, flatter pitches in South Africa, for instance?

Yeah, it's allowed me to bowl a little bit fuller, and I think as a tall guy, a lot of my normal bowling, if you like, when the keeper's back, the ball's going over the stumps. And I think when the keeper's up, the batters are that bit deeper, allows me to keep the stumps in play a little bit more. DRS is helping as well, and I think I've probably not got as many LB bowl dismissals this in my career as I have this summer almost. I think my dismissal is normally nick off or maybe a couple LBs. But yeah, the keeper up's added that new dimension to Test cricket, hasn't it? I know the pitches have been helpful, but even on flatter wickets, I don't see that really going anywhere. I feel like that will aid the bowlers on flatter wickets. Even I have no doubt Smudge could stand up to Gus or Tanguy if he really wanted. He's that skillful.

So he has— he's really had a good summer too, hasn't he, behind the stumps?

Unbelievable. Yeah, I think he had— he obviously had his doubters, but I think he's Answered a lot of questions this summer, which is great for him as well. And I think to the other 3 seamers who struggled in the winter in the Ashes, I think they've come out this summer and showed that they've developed and come on again as well. So as a group, we're trending in the right direction, and we just have to keep that going, keep pushing on, and trying to be the best Test team that we can be.

How do you keep this going? How do you keep this run of form and everything else going before, what, South Africa, I guess?

Yeah, I'm, I'm a realist. I know it's not always going to be this good, and it— that there are going to be tougher days like there were yesterday. We were saying in the change room yesterday how good it is to have a tough day sometimes and to make you realize that you're not quite there, you're not quite where we want to be. We didn't bowl as well as we wanted to in the morning, so those days are always good for us as a bowling group, and we're all learning, we're all trying to help each other, and we know that there's going to be tougher times ahead. We've got some Tough opposition coming up, and we're looking forward to the challenge.

Well, you've had an amazing summer, Ollie. Congratulations, and thanks for talking to me today. Thank you. Cheers.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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Well, that's the main reaction. Just pick out some of the comments there. Actually, Ollie Robertson said it, Joe Root said it. We needed to go through that last night. It was a good experience for us. I mean, is that a bit of a positive spin on that situation last night when they were disappearing around the park?

Yeah, I like that kind of language and conversation, but we have seen that before from this England team, and those conversations clearly haven't happened. So I totally agree, when you're learning as a team and trying to develop, you have to go through good periods, obviously, after winning games, and you have to go through periods where you make a few mistakes. And yesterday they made some mistakes, and the key is getting together as a group. And the next time they're in that situation, probably will be in South Africa or next year against Australia, we'll judge them whether they've changed, whether the tactics have changed from what we saw yesterday. Because the short ball theory that we've seen for a while now, we've all said it, against the better players when they get in, i.e., Babar Azam, it's a good tactic. But when you get down the tail. You know, you've got to hit the top of Auston, you've got to bring all these missiles into play. Yeah, so they had a couple of hours yesterday that they will know that— I won't say the wheels fell off, but it was close. And hopefully they can get those wheels back on. Yeah, so I'm happy to hear that kind of language that, you know, they understand that they didn't quite get it right.

Do they mean it though? Do they really mean it?

Simon, we'll see. You know, it's all about winning, it's all about winning the big series. You know, South Africa away is a big challenge for this group. Obviously the Ashes in a year's time, that is a big, big challenge for this, this team and this leadership group, and that's what they're going to get judged on. But this series has been a series where they had to win and they had to win well, and they've done that to a decent level. There's just been one afternoon where it wasn't quite right, and that was yesterday. Other than that, they've dominated the series clearly.

Alistair's here as well.

I think they will, but I think this regime will look at it. I think maybe under Stokes, he would have taken on, no, this is the way we're doing it. We're going to back it. You know, he was quite like that as a captain. I actually do think under Joe, they will go, no, we will look at this and we will review it with more structure than, say, a previous regime. We can only judge it. We don't know what the conversation is. We can only judge it the next time it happens and have they—

have they learned.

But I think there's a bit more sensible thinking that I think they will go around it. But I will keep throwing in the caveat, it isn't as easy as just bowling at the stumps because the ability of hitting sixes has changed over the last 15 years.

And they were tested a bit this morning as well, Michael, as well, weren't they, when they were 2 for 2? So it wasn't a gimme, for example, for Jordan Cox.

No, no, I mean, Jordan Cox is, uh, he's grown in stature, you know, to go out there opening the batting, really. He's in there the second ball, uh, kept well yesterday, um, You know, you look at the next Test match in South Africa, I'd find it very hard to leave a Jordan Cox out at number 3. Jacob Bethell has had that one innings in Sydney which was very special, but I like to see consistency in terms of the team winning. And when you get a team that's winning, those that are out of the group have to do something to get back in. And I think Jacob Bethell has to play a bit of cricket. I don't think it's right for someone like Jacob just to come straight back into this England side. At the expense of someone like Jordan Cox. Look, they might put Jordan Cox to open and put Jacob at number 3. That is an option for the England cricket team. But, you know, I like the way that this team have played, and if I was England, I'd go to the next game, and if everyone's fit, I'd roll the same team out once again.

Well, I didn't think Jordan would get another opportunity to bat in this game, so I was— I wouldn't have been unhappy if he'd stepped back because he'd done okay. But suddenly today, under pressure, when they were, you know, he came on second ball and Again, the calmness he went about. He didn't give a chance. Joe gave 2 chances, or had 2 lies really. Not a chance. Everything was played beautifully under his eyes, played the situation really well. And when the game started winning, you know, I think he was at 50 run rate, whatever the strike rate, and then accelerated nicely. So he's then suddenly— what today has done for me is he's delivered under pressure. So therefore he goes— you can't leave— I don't think you can leave a person out who's just got you over the game with a 6-yard nut out. I don't think you can, but because he's got the opportunity, he's grabbed it.

I'm not sure this is an easy question necessarily to answer, but how good is this England team? Is it TBD really still?

I think it's all right. I think it's a work in progress. I mean, we can't judge the England team on this series because, you know, Pakistan— I mean, they showed something yesterday, and Razzaq-ul-Haq has been absolutely fantastic for Pakistan, but this is a really poor team. You know, it's a poor cricket team that you would expect most counties actually to be. So let's not get too excited. But what you see in this England side is a huge amount of talent. You know, Jordan Cox just looking so calm at 3. Got England's greatest at 4. Harry Brook is a generational talent at 5. You know, Dan Lawrence has fitted in lovely at number 6. Then you've got Jamie Smith, whose keeping has been brilliant and his batting has looked good this summer. And then the bowling attack has got everything. So We can't say they're a great team or a really good team at the minute because they haven't beaten the better team. They haven't won a 5-match series since 2017. You know, we're nearly 10 years since we won a 5-match series, and that's what you get judged on. You get judged on, in this era, Ashes series, Indian series, and World Test Championship. We've not come anywhere near getting to a World Test Championship final, which is in our own backyard. And I'd love England to really have a focus of making sure— I don't think they'll get into next year's. But the one after that, there should be a real focus of wanting to play a World Test Championship final here in the UK. You know, it'd be a great experience, it'd be a great achievement to get there. And so far, over the course of since it's been in action, they haven't come close. So, and the question is, are they a good team? No, they're not yet. But do they have the talent and the potential to become a really good team? I think they do, yeah.

What do you make of that question, Jonathan?

Yes, absolutely. About the same. I mean, there's still a bit of a question mark about the opening batting, isn't there? And Cox could— I mean, what I like about Cox is I think he could bat anywhere, yeah, anywhere from 1 down to 6, you know, and keep wicket. I mean, he's a really, really versatile all-round cricketer, isn't he?

What would you do with that England top order?

Well, I think I'll probably still stick with Gayle. I think I'll definitely give him a couple of games in South Africa. I just think he's probably earned that, and they've invested in him, and he's had 6 Tests here. Yeah, he got nailed today early on, which is a shame. Oh, just waving the trophy around there behind us. That's the noise there. The England team with Joe Root at the front there waving the trophy. Yeah, the spinner, obviously that is a bit of a question mark. There is not a frontline spinner. The attack I'm really happy with and the reserves as well. I think there are some there are some backups there for virtually all the types of bowling that we have, actually. So, no, I think it's got a lot of potential. It's tighter as well. You know, I think, you know, leading up to halfway through this summer when all the change happened, it was just too loose. And we know that, you know, the way that they play cricket. But I've been really encouraged by the way that Harry Brook has batted in this new regime at Headingley and again here. sensible, disciplined, but still with so much talent. You know, it just, it just feels, it feels a bit more professional and a bit, a bit tighter, a bit more focused.

So you feel they're in a better place now than they were at the start of the summer, despite the fact they lost the big series of the summer?

Definitely. I mean, they will miss Ben Stokes, the cricketer, because again, he balances the side, you know. And I don't know, but, but as far as tightening it is concerned, I think they are going in the right direction.

Ramiz is here as well. Reflections on Pakistan, Ramiz. I mean, there was some fight yesterday, but it's 3-nil and basically it's 3 big defeats.

Well, absolutely. And it's a wake-up call. You've got to get your house in order, Test cricket in order, make sure that there's less chaos around the dressing room, make sure that you make the captain strong because that's how the game is run. And also, I think the players got to look after themselves when it comes to playing well in difficult conditions. There was a huge opportunity for some of these players to make a name for themselves in the series because England always is a special place for them, you know. But the fan following dwindled because the performances have not been coming through. And so Pakistan need to realize the importance of winning them back, and that can only happen if they play better cricket.

How significant was Razaullah's performance yesterday? Did it sort of show, look, this is what we can do if we get it right?

Yeah, I mean, he was an inspiration, really inspirational selection, uh, and then, you know, he stood out amongst the rest because he was carefree in a way, you know, there's hardly any extra baggage that he was carrying, and just presented his case so strongly that if you've got talent and if you've got a bit of a ticker, then you can be successful anywhere in the world. So I mean, his was a remarkable performance under the circumstances.

Where do you see this Pakistan team going forward? I mean, do you still feel actually, you know, do you still worry for it really as a Test nation?

Yes, I do, because there's a lot of emphasis in subcontinent, especially as is in Pakistan, on one-day cricket, one-day format. And so to become a household name all over the world, it's about winning such moments, such series. And if you're not a good Test match side, people will not really rate you. So that has to be instilled in the minds of these young cricketers especially, that Test cricket is the real challenge and you've got to work on it.

Let's get a word with Tuffers as well. He's joined us down the boundary. What's your assessment of Summer toughness.

Well, still a few questions to be answered, aren't there? But I mean, from a position of strength, you know, they're good questions to ask. And I think that Stephen Fleming is going to be coming in. He hasn't been here or looking after the team for this one, but it's always good to come in to a side that's just won a series and people patting each other on the back. There'll be a bubble and a fizz about this England side, but there are still a few. Just listening to Sir Warrister Cook there, you know, I don't I don't think you can drop a Jordan Cox straight away for, for Jacob Bethell. He's come in and done everything that's been deserved. I was really impressed actually with the way he batted today. Uh, we've been asking for, for batters to, uh, read the situation, and I think he did. He realized that Mohammad Abbas was the threat, wasn't he? Played really tight and sort of compact for that, and then let the runs sort of flow early on. So there's lots and lots of pluses for England, but there, there will just be a little bit of juggling about. for Steven Fleming to do.

Yes, I was actually interested by Joe Root's answer when I said to him about, you know, are you back on the rails? Are you back on track? And I meant off the field, really. And he said, well, yes, but he thought about it and he said, well, I think we're getting there. I mean, he didn't— he's not getting ahead of himself, is he? He acknowledges that that is all going to take time. The culture of the team, as he talked about, and that's only a couple of months ago, all of that. And It's still there. And it's very important that this— that the England cricket team does reconnect with its fans, its supporters, and the board can reconnect with sponsors. I mean, the whole image of the game has taken quite a battering really over the last— well, since the Ashes began really. And it's up to Root to get it back on track. And he's not getting ahead of himself. He said, look, it will take time.

You know, it wasn't that long ago where it was all in a bit of disarray, wasn't it? You know, I could go back to Trent Bridge and New Zealand and coaches and captains and cultures and whatever thing. So it has sort of smoothed out very quickly and very nicely. I know that there will be tougher challenges ahead, obviously, than Pakistan, but that they've got it on that sort of basic sort of footing now that they can now move forward. Stephen Fleming, very experienced. I think he's going to be a great appointment for I suppose the immediate issue for them is how do they celebrate tonight? Quietly.

A nice glass of Ribena.

Room service.

Well, that's the one, Ram. Out of sight.

Yes, out of sight. Out of sight is the right thing. Well, that's— yeah, I mean, listen, we're not saying that you can't celebrate a victory. You played fantastically well and you've done what's been put in front of you.

Yes.

Um, yeah, so you just, you know, you have a couple of beers and you go back and you pat each other on the back. Listen, some of them are playing on Tuesday, aren't they, in the one-day?

One-day practice tomorrow.

Yeah, one-day practice tomorrow. So a couple of beers and done, I think.

Stephen Fleming coming in, Jonathan. What sort of influence do you think he will have? I mean, has it been a bit odd him not being here? I mean, I felt it's been— I'm sure a lot of people who have supported the England side—

He's been in South Africa, I think, watching the rugby, isn't he, from what I heard? Yeah, it is. But I mean, I think, you know, they He, I think, and Joe Root will be a really good combination because Stephen Fleming, the cricketer, was a hard-working, traditional Test-playing captain. You know, he was not a flashy player. He's someone who had to work hard for his runs. And of course, he's now had all that experience of the IPL, so that won't count much for Test cricket. But he's been used to managing people, managing, you know, big, big names and all of that. I think he'll be really good. He's a very intelligent fella. You'll enjoy interviewing Simon. He's a good man. I think he and Joe Root actually will be a very good combination.

Yeah, I love Baz's comment actually. What was it? You know, he's just like me but a little bit better, you know. And I played under Steven at Middlesex and he's quite tough as well, you know. So he comes across, you know, very approachable Tough in what way? Well, you know, if you start messing about too much, you know, or you're not quite turning up on time and things like that, just little basic things like that, he'll give you a little bit of rope. But then if you're, if you're not, if you're not on it and you're not prepared— we've been talking about being prepared so much, haven't we— and you're, and you're not ready for the fight, he'll, he'll give you a hurry up as well. So looking forward to seeing how that all, you know, how it translates. But I think they've just got such a great start for it, if you know what I mean. Everything just seems to have calmed down a little bit now.

I know there's a lot of white-ball cricket to come, actually stacks of white-ball cricket to come, but let's look ahead to the Test series a little bit in South Africa. I mean, how big a challenge is that? I mean, England actually normally do well in South Africa, don't they?

They've had some success down there.

Yeah, they have. It's only 3 Tests. Yeah, I mean, well, they're the world champions, which is surprising, and And I mean, it's a weakness of that tournament, isn't it, that you can actually come in as they did to get into it.

Are they the best side?

Well, that's the question, isn't it? I mean, no, probably not, but we'll learn more from the Australian tour there that's going to be taking place shortly. I think Rabada makes a lot of difference either way. If he's fit and firing, you know, he's a really dangerous bowler. They've got plenty of pace. I think they'll be tough, and we haven't yet seen how much of using up P word again. How much preparation you're going to have, and they must have learned that lesson. But yeah, it'll be that will be a good challenge. It'll be flat pitches. You'll see how the attack goes. I was interested in Ollie Robinson talking about the wicketkeeper standing up. Actually, again, you know, it doesn't really matter what the pitches are like or the conditions are like. You know, to have the keeper standing up does make a does make a difference. So it's been a really interesting series.

Yeah, I think so too. Um, they've got the firepower with the ball. South Africa at home, uh, there'll be different lengths compared to what they faced here against Pakistan. It'll be sheer pace and they've got to gut it out. And also another place where you can make a name for yourself. You know, batting conditions are not always there in South Africa. Cape Town can be a bit up and down, but at the end of the day, they go there with a winning mindset, which is going to be very important.

Yeah, it's a tough series, always is. You know, South Africa, they won't, you know, they won't fold. They'll fight tooth and nail. Going to be interesting to see how this 4-man quartet go over there. A lot's been made of them. We've been talking about all of their roles and they're all slotting in and we seem to have all the bases covered.

A few cracks last night though.

Well, a few cracks last night, but that's the one thing I think that Fleming will have to come in and say. It happens too regularly to this England side, doesn't it? You know, okay, people say, oh, it's just cricket, and sometimes, you know, a guy can have a bit of a swish and get some, but happens too many times for my liking. So they're gonna have to get some plans sorted about that. But it's just gonna be interesting to see how those 4 quicks of England go on those kind of pitches.

What sort of summer has it been, Jonathan, Test-wise then?

It's been a fascinating— I mean, we won't forget this summer, will we, for everything that's happened? I mean, it's been so unpredictable. And yes, I think there's been a lot of focus clearly on what's been happening off, off the field. And that was coming to a head during, during the Ashes. And I think people who were perhaps commenting on what we were saying in Australia might now have seen the sort of picture a little more clearly for themselves and that there was a lack of professionalism. And you've got to say that and that's That's a harsh thing to say about an international sports team, but the evidence is there. You can't refute what's happened. It was happening this summer. And if they can get that on track, and I think they will, I don't think Joe Root will take any nonsense at all, and neither will Stephen Fleming, then this team focused and working hard and going forwards, I think, will do well. As for the cricket, what is It's been a bit up and down. I mean, actually, the way New Zealand played at Trent Bridge was really good. Hard-fought, difficult pitch. Runs have been difficult to come by. So I think this will be a summer perhaps you look back on next year with the Ashes and we'll consider the changes that have been made fundamentally to the culture of this team. from— hopefully from an English perspective, we'll consider that it was— that the changes have been a good thing.

It's all been quite similar, hasn't it? You know, there's been— you kind of knew. I mean, why we all love this job is that you don't quite know what you're going to get every day, but you kind of did this summer, didn't you? No keeper standing up, Ollie Robinson taking wickets in his first overs and what have you. It's all been quite similar, uh, but thoroughly enjoyable. Again, I think England have taken a leaf out of Australia's book a little— sorry, New Zealand's Book a little bit, and you know my highlight for the summer was that that hundred at Trent Bridge by Mitchell. You know, get stuck in.

It's doing so many blows on the body.

So many blows on the body. Get stuck in. I shall not pass and fight and fight. And if you get the ascendancy, really ram it home. Don't give it away. So yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's been nice and warm, hasn't it?

It certainly has. Let's get some statistical analysis. This to finish now from Andy Zaltzman. What's caught your eye then, Zaltz?

Well, it's been a very curious, uh, summer, uh, statistically, particularly from the batting point of view. England have won this series 3-0 without scoring a century. It's only the 10th time in Test history that a team has won a series of 3 or more matches without anyone scoring a century. Only the 2nd time England have done it, and only one other team has ever won a series 3-0 without 100. That was Australia and West Indies, um, last year on some fiendishly difficult pitches for batting. One of the sort of curiosities of, uh, of England's recent matches— since, uh, the Boxing Day Test, they've won 5 Tests and no one scored 100 in any of those games. And their previous 8 wins, um, had at least one century in. Historically, you'd expect about 1 in 4 victories Not to contain a century. So to have 5 in a row is, uh, well, I think tells something about the pitches that we've seen. Certainly that game in Melbourne and the matches England have won, have won this summer, have been some very, very difficult pitches. And to look at, you know, how those players have done, um, despite there being no hundreds— Harry Brook, for example, has had a huge performance in those, in those victories, uh, without putting up big numbers. In those, those wins combined, 330 runs averaged for 47. Top scored in the first innings of 4 out of those 5 games. Sometimes you get obsessed with milestones, uh, but I think Brooks had a, you know, a highly effective, uh, uh, summer without, uh, breaking that, um, run of century-free Tests that goes, uh, goes back now from 11 Tests to the Oval Test, uh, last year. So, um, yeah, it's, it's kind of been interesting from that point of view. The bowling obviously has been completely dominant, uh, for England. In this series, 21 wickets at an average of 8. 7. Out of all bowlers who bowled 75 or more overs in the series, that's the 5th best average ever, the 2nd best since the First World War, uh, and the, you know, certainly the best by a seamer since the First World War. 28 wickets at 9.3 over the course of the summer. In this series, his economy rate was 2.04 runs per over, the best by an England bowler in a home series since 1990, the best by an England seamer in a home series since 1979. But the rest of England's bowlers went at almost 4.3 an over. So that might be a mild concern for England, the lack of control other than Robinson, although they're bowling in a, in an attacking manner. And some of that was slightly skewed by yesterday's pyrotechnics from Raza Ullah. Josh Tongue, for example, 19 wickets at an average of 16.3, uh, strike rate of a wicket every 20 balls, but went at just under 5 an over, the highest economy rate by any bowler who's taken 15 or more wickets in a series. So success But also, um, a lot of runs, uh, conceded. In terms of the cricket this summer, sort of quite homogeneous for, for a lot of it. Very little spin. England bowled 80 overs of spin, uh, and, uh, their opponents 75 overs of spin. It's the least spin there's ever been in an English Test summer in which more than one Test has been played. So not a huge amount of variety. Part of that is been that, you know, the way teams have struggled at the top of the order this series. Um, Pakistan's second wicket fell at an average of 9.3 for 2, and England were around about 28 for 2. Between them, they combined for the worst performance by the opening and second wicket stands in any Test series, uh, played. So we saw, uh, the wicket falling first ball today, as it did in, uh, in Pakistan's second innings. Uh, only the 5th time in Test history That a wicket has fallen first ball of the innings twice in the same game. 2 wickets in his first over, as did Robinson yesterday. And it's the first time in Test history that 2 bowlers have taken 2 wickets in their first, first over of an inning. So we've seen a lot of sort of curious play. The ball has, uh, largely, uh, dominated. Um, but there were 20 50s in this series without anyone scoring 100, and that is the most 50s ever made in a Test series that did not contain a century. So yeah, it's been, uh, curious cricket, enlivened by yesterday's marvelous Pakistan resistance. So one day plus one over blip in an otherwise disastrous series for them. I guess it finished in an appropriate manner with errors all over the place— a wicket off a no ball, misfield, missed chances, and overthrows.

Zoltz, thank you very much indeed. Time to put that vast brain of yours in a nice bucket. Today at the Test is on BBC Four. And BBC iPlayer highlights on the BBC Sport website and app. England do begin a white ball series— yes, a white ball series— against Sri Lanka on Tuesday with the first T20 at Southampton, and we're on air for that from 6:15 PM. 3 T20s and 3 One Day Internationals in that series. We'll have the climax of the County Championship season as well, plus finals of the Men's and Women's One Day Cup, and then we will be in Pakistan for England's ODI So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

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