“Beat the Aussies” is goal for Fleming

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast. Alison Mitchell here with you at Old Trafford, looking out over a sunlit ground at the moment ahead of the England-Sri Lanka T20 Men's International. And on the outfield, we have already had a meeting of a very particular trio. Brendan McCullum, the white ball coach, alongside mentor Kevin Peterson. And standing alongside them in that huddle was Stephen Fleming, the new Red Ball, the new Test coach for England men. He is here in the country, he's here in Manchester, he's been in various other places as well, meeting with people, meeting with players. And I'm in the commentary box with our cricket correspondent Stefan Schemmel, and alongside us also is T20 World Cup winner David Malan. And we'll hear from both of those in a few moments, but Stefan has had a chance to meet with Stephen Fleming. and have a sit-down with him ahead of him beginning his tenure formally as the team head towards the South Africa tour. So let's have a listen to Stefan's chat with Stephen Fleming.

Stephen, first thing to say, it's lovely to meet you and welcome, and welcome to the weather. How's your week been?

It's been busy, but it's been excellent. From sort of Monday through to now, it's been a few miles, and during that time, a lot of thought, but most importantly, meeting and reconnecting with a lot of past players I played with who are now coaching or in senior roles at counties, and also meeting and introducing myself to some international players. So it's been a great week.

I guess that's the point, isn't it? This isn't completely alien to you. There's a lot of things that you'll be doing that'll be bringing back memories and lots of familiarities.

Yeah, and it wasn't a job actually, it was a pleasure. I had some great years playing county cricket, in particular with Nottinghamshire, so to be able to To go down the M1 to certain grounds and remember games and people, and it's all part of it. It's a really important aspect to me. I love that time. I was coming to the end of my captaincy and I was on the edge of falling out of love with the game, and I got a call from McNeill to captain Nottingham, and I've— I wouldn't say fell back in love with it, but it kept me in the game in a really positive space, and they were 3 of my best seasons.

Was that connection with the English game part of the reason why you took the job?

Yes. Yep, easy answer. And I didn't realise how disconnected I'd been until I got an opportunity with the Southern Brave. And those 2 years again rekindled those feelings of joy and fun and how cricket should be played and my respect for English cricket.

But that respect would have been there anyway if you hadn't have got a call from From Love Key. So what was that conversation like? Were you surprised to be asked? Did you need much persuading?

It was interesting process because I was just in the process of of leaving Chennai, which had been 18 years of of sort of my life in that franchise world. So there was there was a lot of thought around that. So it was a period where I was resetting to do something, and they say timing is everything, and. Brendan, the position became vacant at a similar time. Not related, but it was then a case of when I got a call from Rob was some deep thought. It wasn't straightforward because family's very important to me. I had commitments that I'd set up based on how my years had been run before that. And also self-reflection about my ability to do the job and whether I was the person, the right person to take it up. So there was a lot of thought. It was a long, thorough process. But once I got a little bit of a burn in the stomach for it, it was hard to ignore.

Is there a certain— I know you're a proud Kiwi and you've worked for a long time in India, but is there a certain allure, I don't know, to taking the England coaching job?

I think it's the most, or one of the most prestigious jobs in cricket, and that's the regard I hold it in. And to be asked to consider it and then be selected to do it is a great honour.

But you didn't take it straight away, weren't in charge for the Pakistan series.

I did, I did. But it was just the case that then there was commitments and family commitments that I had that I just wasn't in a position to break. And that's more about me as a person than dropping everything and coming over here. There were responsibilities that I had. I watched and connected with Joe and the team straight away once it was approved. I've got a stress fracture in my left ear from phone calls, but we'll deal with that. But it was about attitude and then connecting to the team in a way that from remotely, it was almost not always an advantage, but watching them operate just now with eyes wide open as to what was expected, the opportunity, the challenges. And there was also another part introducing Joe back into captaincy. and Marcus Traskothick the opportunity to do the head coaching role. That's part of why I love the game, is bringing people forward, developing people, leadership, and they did brilliantly. And it gave me an opportunity to catch my breath and then start pretty fresh with a clear mind on what's ahead.

What conversations have you had with Brendan McCollum, both before you agreed to take the job and after that?

Really honest ones, and it's That's how our relationship is. It's based on a lot of shared experience. And he was, yeah, he was heartsore that it worked out that way, but he was incredibly positive about the experience and opportunity. And he's been unwavering on that. His belief about where these teams can go is strong. And that was a major part when I was talking to him about doing the role. Also, how he had been treated within the ECB, which is another question. And that again was very, very positive. So he really endorsed the opportunity and that was a big part, although— I think I knew internally that it was something that I was wanting to do and was going to do.

Can you take us inside that relationship that you have with Brendan? You obviously go back a long way, friends, teammates, business partners. What's that like?

I'll bet on the favourite and he'll bet on the longest odds possible, so somewhere in the middle. Look, I love his confidence and his aggressive nature balances a more measured Somewhere in between, we've got a beautiful working relationship with a huge amount of respect. I have so much respect for what Ben Stokes and Brendon did with this English side, what, 3 years ago? That changed the landscape of cricket and that's a really powerful thing. And I was in awe with what that team were doing and how they were doing it. The last 12 months, the evolution piece, team's caught up, there was talent that was lost, a lot of reasons what sort of just flagged, but that's now my opportunity. doesn't change the respect I have for what they did with this English side.

You just said, you know, the reasons why the last 12 months maybe didn't go the way that Ben and Brendon wanted them to. What are your thoughts on those reasons?

Well, it was 1,000 wickets lost. Anderson, Broad, and then Woakes. Others caught up. When you do something special and you start doing it differently, everybody else takes a bit of time, then they catch up. So the pressure then goes on evolution, and that can That can create some challenges. Not being in the inner workings, that's my take on it. The Ashes wasn't what they wanted, and that's what this team is measured on. And again, all I can think about is now my opportunity to pick it up and maybe add my style, which is looking at personality a little bit more measured.

You just talked— style is a word you just mentioned. Does a Test cricket team Do you have to have a style? Do you have to commit to a brand?

Yeah, that's a really good question, actually. I don't think so. I think the greatest thing for a team to do is to be able to play conditions and situations, both pressure and positive. And one thing that this team has earned is the ability to be positive. One of the other aspects is winning the tough moments and making sure that we don't just play entertaining cricket and win moments, but win games. And cricket is a really tough game. It keeps asking you questions. So winning those moments and being able to identify them and work our way through them. And I look at a captain like Joe, Joe is a brilliant problem solver. So relying on him to create a style of play based on the way he plays is almost a perfect blueprint.

And that being said, when you said a team doesn't necessarily have to commit to a style, it needs to adapt and all those sorts of things. What's your style as a coach? How would Stephen Fleming describe your game?

Oh, look, I'd love to be— if people were watching the team, say they're well planned. There's a discipline, there's a really strong basic structure to what we're doing, but there's also a bit of flair. And that's not necessarily me and the way I played, but it's what I loved about this English side when they started playing like this. So it's taking the best of that and adding, yeah, that planning aspect. If the supporters would look at us and say, yeah, they're disciplined, well-planned, and competitive. That's a good start.

Tell me if this is wrong, but I've read Mike Hussey saying that sometimes you turn up in fancy dress.

That's wrong. That's wrong.

Is it?

Uh, well, there have been times where you might want to shake things up a little bit. Yeah.

Might that happen again?

I'm really uncomfortable. No, I, look, I, I do like thinking outside the square.

Okay.

And in franchise cricket in particular, you're constantly meetings and trying to create an environment that is fun. And sometimes, yeah, you might push the boundaries a little bit.

So we'll wait and see.

Thanks, Hussey.

Yeah. There's a more serious side to what's happened with the England team over the past 12 months, things that have gone on off the field. I know that you haven't been involved in the setup, but what's your observation been from a distance?

Yeah, it's been disappointing because I understand what people are working to and working towards and And these events can derail a lot of things and divert attention from what really matters. So, yeah, disappointing. And I look at it and again, the opportunity would be to make sure the standards within are fitting of an international cricketer. And I'm gonna use Joe again. When I look at epitomising an international cricketer and what they should stand for, it's Joe. And when he sits in an interview and openly expresses his disappointment or uses hacked off, then I know there's work to be done. And also a little bit of sort of the belonging piece, identity piece. What are we doing here together? How can we be the best version of ourselves? So a lot of that work, and that's begun. That was one of the— that's one of the key things for me to develop, and in my work with Joe, that's begun.

What's your attitude towards discipline? Is that something you're quite strict on?

Well, I think you need to behave in accordance of your position, and we're in a very privileged position. And it's understanding that privilege, but also what goes along with it. It can't be convenient. You can't have, when it suits you, do the right things, and then when you don't want it to suit you, not. So you've got to live it every day. If we can create something where you want to live it every day and be better, that's really powerful. That's unicorn thinking, but that's where we need to get to. And the disappointment is that there are times when the players have just forgotten to be living it at that moment. And that's, that's an area of work on.

We had a development last night with Brydon Kars.

Before then, the ECB said he, he is available for selection.

I realize there's a process to be going through at the same time.

Do you want him in your, in your squad?

Yeah, it's, it's a tough one. There's still part of the process, so that limits a little bit until that is completed.

But he is available?

Yeah, he is available.

There's—

there are standards we pick on, runs and wickets primarily. But I think it's foolish not to say there's also standards that need to be set. And we've just got to be careful to make sure that the people that represent us are the people that the club cricketers, the people that follow English cricket, are proud to have us wearing the lines.

Now, there's another player who said he's not available to play for England in Test cricket. That's Ben Stokes. Have you spoken to him this week?

Yes, yeah, I have. I was lucky enough to catch Ben up in Durham. He'd just come off another monster bowling spell. And he was in a great space. He was really happy. He was enjoying his time with Durham. He's got a good winter planned with the family and very much at peace with his decision. And when a player makes that decision to retire, I respect that 100%.

So there'd be no sense of you giving him a phone call? If he wanted to change his mind, he'd have to come to you?

Yeah, I respect his decision too much to try and turn that round and question that as wrong. And I know how much goes into that type of decision. And I respect that.

Let's look to the future. Your first assignment hands-on is going to be in South Africa. I know you've been watching closely the Pakistan series. Marcus and Joe and even some of the players have been saying how you've been in contact with them. What's your view of where this team is and where it needs to go?

Look, I think it's exciting. One of the dark arts of coaching is getting a team at the right time, and I feel like it's pretty close to that time and I am really looking forward to going to South Africa with this group. I've had the pleasure of doing SA20 for 4 years, so my familiarity with the grounds and conditions is gonna help and I'm really excited to be with these guys going over. I think it's gonna be great.

You wrote a book, I think, didn't you? About time in South Africa?

Yeah, books don't count anymore.

Right, okay.

Yeah, it's gotta be a podcast. I haven't done one.

But the makeup of the team, so for example, obvious shift in the England XI since Ben Stokes retired.

4 seamers this summer, quite, um, because of the conditions. How do you see that formation? Do England need to uncover an all-rounder, a frontline spinner? What are your thoughts on that?

Well, it was impressive watching the, the 4 of them operate, was really impressive. And not only that, there's some guys in the wings as well, which is always a, a nice strength to have. Uh, yeah, there's been a lot of commentary around developing more spin, but when you look at the amount of spin that's bowled in county cricket and Test cricket, you can understand why that is in the shadows a little bit. But that doesn't mean we need to ignore that. Maybe look at other ways to develop it, especially with Bangladesh coming up in the new year. And then obviously India at some point in 12, sort of 16 months' time. So yeah, there is certainly a push for that. You can't replace Ben Stokes as an all-rounder, but looking at the youth that's coming through and nurturing that, and that was one of the other benefits of doing the county rounds is seeing the talent that's there. There is talent there and there's opportunities through 19s and Lions and there will be opportunities as Test players play and the white ball is separate for guys to emerge. So I think from what I've seen and what I've heard talking to county coaches, we're in a good space.

Just as a New Zealander and looking ahead to what's coming in the future, do you ever look at English cricket and think Wow, you guys are far too obsessed about the Ashes.

No, because I have an obsession with it as well. New Zealand has an obsession with it.

We love it.

But are the results of the England team too linked?

Yeah, we want to beat Aussie. So we're heavily linked to England performances. We have a deep desire to beat Australia in everything as the little cousins. So no, we are linked, and that is— I am incredibly excited about being part of it. You don't think you're ever gonna get that opportunity. So to have that opportunity and be part of it, I can't wait. And I wanna be my best self and have a team that represents itself in the best possible way. I've got a vision of that and it's aspirational. It'd be brilliant.

And just finally, and sometimes I feel like this is a silly question of asking someone what they want to achieve because, you know, you wanna win everything. You wanna win as many series, as many matches as possible. But if I could throw you forward to the time when you're no longer England coach, what would you be able to like to say that you have done?

I'll pass it on in a position of strength. I think that's a real powerful thing for a coach to be able to do is actually leave and pass it to someone who has equal or more success. That was one driver. To look back and selfishly to have ticked some of those marquee series off or a World Test Championship. You know, I'm very ambitious, but I'm also realistic because it's the New Zealand way. You gotta downplay it. But yeah, I look, I dream and have a vision of that for sure.

And beat the Aussies.

Beat the Aussies.

Good luck. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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Right, so that was Stephen Fleming, the incoming men's test coach, chatting with Stefan Schemelt. Stefan, very interesting conversation that was, and eminently sensible, the words he speaks. And also one of the first things that struck me is when he spoke of self-reflection, you know, was he good enough to do this job? He's someone who has a great deal of humility as well.

Yeah, you know, incredibly measured and thoughtful and honest. I'd not met Steven Fleming before, but he was all the things that I expected him to be. And I think we got a bit of an insight into what this England team is going to be going forwards. And I don't know, maybe you could take this as a criticism of the previous regime. It's not intended to be, but it did feel like we had a grown-up in the room, maybe for the first time in a little while. And one thing that I picked out straight away about the, the difference that I think we can expect between Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCollum— and they are great mates, they are very, very tight— but the thing that he says, I'll bet on the favorite and he'll bet on the longest odds possible.

Yeah.

And I think that is, even from not knowing either of them particularly well at all, certainly in the case of Stephen Fleming, you could say, well, that is the difference. between them, and that is going to be the big difference of what we can expect from Stephen Fleming's England team. He got asked about Flemball in the press conference beforehand, and he shot that down straight away. So that is, is what we're going to get from, from Stephen Fleming. I think what, from my point of view as a journalist, it might be a little bit less volatile, a little bit less eventful, maybe less interesting. But England might win more.

And that's what the fans want. I've been fortunate to share a commentary box with Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCullum, you know, at different times. And Stephen Fleming certainly has an aura when he walked into the room. He was very articulate, is articulate. You heard that in, in that interview there with you, Stefan, as well. And David Millar is with us here as well, former England Test cricketer and T20 World Cup winner to boot. Have you had anything to do with Stephen Fleming across your career, David?

Not in terms of teams, no, and playing with him, but just bumping into him in hotels and breakfasts and things like that. And he is, as you said, he's got a presence about him, an aura about him. He's the type of person that would come up to you. Generally, these older generation that have done so well in the game and have been so connected in the game, you know, you almost have to approach them where he's got that respect of players that have played the international game and played around the world that he's feels that he has the space to be able to come up to you and approach you and ask you about your life and your career. And that's impressive because sometimes you feel like a lot of the older players and older coaches and generation— I apologize for saying the older word a lot— but they almost feel like they are slightly closed off. So when you have a person like that who is open and available and approachable, it makes life so much easier.

Yeah, an aura, but not at all in an intimidating way, a very approachable way. I've certainly always found him.

Definitely.

And he has respect for you, whether you've done well in international but he has respect for you as a person. And I think that helps. You know, you, you do come across a lot of the legends of the games that have that aura about them, and they're not really approachable, and, and you feel really uncomfortable being around them, where he does not have that about him at all. You, you feel like you can sit down at him at any time of the day and grab him for a chat, and he's always available, and he always has time for you. And that's a great trait to have as a person, especially a leader and a coach as well.

Having listened to that chat with Stephan, we'll come back to Stephan as well in a moment. What in particular stood out for you from what you heard from him? Because the crucial thing that all England fans will be listening for is how can he make this Test team a winning Test team again?

Well, firstly, I really enjoyed the connection between him and county cricket. I think in this previous regime, whether they cared about it or not, it didn't really come across like county cricket was vitally important to them. And I think that really riled a lot of players up that were still playing county cricket, whether that be coaches, players, uh, just people involved in the game. And I think his— the way he spoke, it showed respect for the county game. It showed that he cared about it. It showed that he had really good experiences of it. Um, and I think that puts them in really good stead. So once again, if you're an aspiring player trying to play cricket for England, you know that he's going to watch it because he showed that he's got that care and respect for it. I also like the way that he was quite clear that it doesn't have to necessarily be a brand of cricket that he wants to play, but he believes that the the team will sort of be mirrored in the image of Joe Root and the captain. And I guess that's why they went back to him as captain, is they felt they needed a change, they needed a different approach to the way they've gone about their game in this new era under Stephen Fleming. And he decided he needed a captain that is able to live and die by the way he does his things on and off the field. And I think that's important. You know, it's very difficult if you have a captain So you say you made Harry Brook captain and he wants to be attacking, and you've got Steven Fleming who wants to approach the conditions, that becomes quite difficult to navigate. And you almost felt that was a little bit towards the end of the McCullum and Stokes era. You felt there was a little bit of a pull towards one direction and the other, whereas this feels like it's been told it's Joe Root's team. We're going to play in your image, whether it be the way you approach certain situations, you problem solve, and the way he conducts himself off the field as well.

Yeah, very clear, Stefan, insofar as he doesn't need, you know, a style of play to be labeled, but he also has clarity on how he does want them to play.

Yeah, and he was talking about, um, that he'd like supporters to look at his team and think that they are well planned and they are disciplined and that they have a method of what they're trying to do. And he also talked about, um, a Test match team adapting to the conditions and reading a situation. And that's a lot of the things that we have have been asking of this England team to do for a little while. I'll keep going back actually to, um, a press conference I heard from Steve Smith during the Ashes when he was standing in as Australia captain, and he got asked what is the Australian way of playing Test match cricket, and he talked about adapting in real time, knowing what to do in a certain situation, um, competing actually, just being competitive in a certain moment. And sometimes that is what England haven't always done. Look, I do feel that sometimes the criticism of, um, England under McCullum and Stokes wasn't always fair, that they sometimes got, um, beaten with a stick of this style, the Bazball style, that that is what brought them success in the first part of, of the, their reign, and that they always stuck to that. That is not true. They didn't always play that way. What they did sometimes is they reverted to a style of play when they thought they were uncertain or they were up against it, or they thought that this is going to be difficult and this is our way of getting out of this trouble. Run towards the danger, wasn't it? That was their mantra.

Hit your way out of it.

Exactly, yeah. And they didn't always do that, but what Stephen Fleming is saying is, well, look, there is a— there are different ways to get out of trouble, to play in a situation. And that is, I think, what frustrated supporters in the end, that sometimes England just didn't adapt to those situations, that their way of getting out of trouble was to run towards the danger.

Yeah, and selecting the right players in order to do that is going to be key. And there are a few things that, you know, he will have on his agenda that he will, you know, need to look at in some of those, you know, player conundrums when it comes to that South Africa tour.

Yeah, exactly. And that goes back to his point about county cricket, is what type of players he's looking for. He'll have to communicate that, whether that's in the press or whether that's to county cricketers and coaches in general, because at the end of the day, they always sort of say what type of cricketer they want to produce for English cricket. So that will be the start. He then has to find a way of getting the players that have played the last little, little while that are now injured, that have missed this last series, getting them back in the team. And you're right, he has to decide which players are going to fit in with the roles and the way that he wants to approach the game. So as an opening batter, does he want a traditional open bat opening batter? Does he want the game to be attacked as it has been, um, in the past? And, and I guess that's the challenge for any coach, coming with a clear mind find the players that you want. And the challenge will be for Stephen Fleming as well. He hasn't seen a lot of county cricket. He follows it and he has an idea of what's going on. He was involved in the Hundred for 2 years, so he does have a rough idea of players in white-ball cricket, but he still has to, I guess, decide which players and characters he wants in that Test cricket.

And does he have a good enough, strong enough relationship with Brendan McCullum that they can work together on the red-ball, white-ball player scheduling aspect, Stefan? Because there's always been that competing tension.

Look, if Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCullum can't work it out, I'm not sure which combination of coaches England could turn to. But you're right in that it hasn't really worked for England in the times that they've done it before. First, when it was Andy Flower and Ashley Giles, that just sort of fell apart pretty quickly, actually. And then, um, when Matthew Mott and McCullum worked together, yes, England went and won a T20 World Cup, um, in Australia very quickly, but that was still the remnants of, of Eoin Morgan's team. And then things fell apart for England at the 50-over World Cup in India. Um, the following year. But yeah, Brendan McCollum are long-term mates, teammates, business partners. I think even in the press conference, Stephen Fleming described himself as the big brother of the relationship. So I'd quite like to be a fly on the wall when they get together and have those conversations about, I don't know, when—

Not having a wrestling contest.

Yeah, when Joffre Archer's having a rest, all those sorts of things. And he used the word as well, robust. How many times have we heard Brendan McCullum say robust conversations have gone on? It's almost using the same language. So yeah, I think they will be okay. And if Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCullum can't work together in a split coaching environment, it's probably time to give up.

And from what he said about Ben Stokes, he respects his decision that he has retired. People are still saying, you know, do you think Stokes is going to come back for the Ashes? What did you take away from the manner in which he spoke about Ben Stokes then?

I think I thought it was the way that he said, you know, I absolutely respect the fact that someone has taken that decision. And I guess only international or any sort of cricket or a sports person can know what it is like to have to say no more, to hand the cap back, basically say, I'm not going to wear that anymore. Fleming would have gone through that himself. And it is right that anyone wouldn't really, I think, make that phone call to say, Come on, let's be having you. Come on, can you come and play again? England need to let Ben Stokes make that decision himself. If you've sort of been looking at Ben Stokes's social media over the past couple of weeks, he seems to be having a good time playing for Durham and enjoying what they've been doing, just being crowned Division 2 champions. If Ben Stokes decides he wants to play for England again, I'm sure everyone connected with the England team would be happy to have that conversation, but I don't think they will be chasing him.

Do you think they need him? Do you think they might by next year, or is the England team in a poorer place if they haven't progressed beyond him, you know, by next summer?

Well, I think that's a good point, Ellie. I think if the team haven't found someone within a 12-month period, then you probably have to question sort of players that are coming through. So I guess it all depends on the nature of the balance of the team. They've— he spoke really well about the 4-seam attack that he really enjoyed, and he quite liked that, and about the lack of spin. Um, so it all depends if they go that way again. If they feel like the spinner could be the all-rounder because it doesn't play a big role, uh, then it's a different story. But if they feel like they really need to get a spinner in, especially when they go to Bangladesh and the subcontinent where they really do need spin, how they can find that balance of the team, then maybe you'll start realizing that he is a massive miss. Um, they do have a few options. They've got Craig Overton who's done well. Sam Curran's, uh, back again. You've got James Coles who can play as a spinning all-rounder. Dan Lawrence has filled that role brilliantly so far. In this English summer. So they have a few options to look at. It's just whether they have the time to try and to see when that, those guys can come through.

I think, Ali, this is going to sound like a really strange point to make, given that Brendan McCullum took over the England team when they had just only won 1 match in 17, and Steven Fleming is about to take over a team that has just beaten Pakistan 3-0. I think Fleming has got a harder job with the personnel that he's inheriting. So if you think of the players that Brendan McCullum got, it was Anderson, Broad, Bairstow, Wokes, Wood, Root.

A fully seasoned team.

Absolutely, that had just not been playing well, and he just didn't need to do loads and loads to get them back on track. And obviously a team led by Brendan McCullum and captained by Ben Stokes had Ben Stokes in it. Now that Steven Fleming has taken over a team that is still in flux, you look at the 11 that's been playing in the past couple of weeks, well, Emilio Gay, Jordan Cox, Dan Lawrence trying to, um, um, settle themselves in Test cricket. Jacob Bethell hasn't done it yet.

On the sidelines, what happens when he's fit again?

Absolutely. So there's a decision to make there. And also, as Dawid said, we're not 100% sure who the spinner is. And for as well as the 4 seamers have bowled in the past couple of weeks, some bowlers still trying to establish themselves. And underneath that is not a great deal of experience depending on what happens with Brydon Kars. Sam Cooke, Sonny Baker, Henry Crocombe, guys like that just haven't played much or any Test cricket. So Fleming is inheriting, I think, a bigger project than what McCullum and Stokes took on, um, with those big series on the horizon— South Africa away, Australia at home, India away in 18 months' time.

And it didn't surprise me at all to hear when he was speaking about, you know, what, what could transpire with Brydon Kars, that it's about, yes, we pick players on runs and wickets, But we also have standards as well. And Steven Fleming is somebody who, who demands high standards and he will be demanding those of his players.

Yeah.

So there was an update over the weekend, Friday evening, about Brydon Kars, that the investigation from Derbyshire Police into what happened in the hours, early, early hours of that Sunday morning in August has now been closed. And with the police involvement over, the cricket regulator investigation begins. The ECB have made it clear that Kars is available selection. For selection. He hasn't been chosen since, um, he was dropped from the squad for the 2nd Test against Pakistan. The next time England will, um, pick a squad is for the White Ball Series in Pakistan. We don't know whether Brydon Kars will be available for that or not. What I would say is, depending on what the regulator comes up with, where they find Kars guilty, where there is a punishment, um, to be made, there are 2 sort of elements to this. One, there's like the disciplinary side of it and what could happen to Brydon Kars. but there is also a sporting element in that Stephen Fleming, Joe Root, Brendan McCullum with the white-ball team, Harry Brook, they can pick who they like. And they left Ollie Robinson out for 2 years for other reasons, not just him being a very, very good bowler. So how that plays out and what Fleming said about standards may just give us a hint as to what could happen in the future.

And so a final thought, because of course a huge part of England failing in the Ashes in Australia, there was so much focus on the preparation, or rather lack of it. And I think what Stephen has one 3-day game scheduled ahead of the South Africa Test in, in Durban, I believe. Before then, they begin the first Test in Johannesburg. David, is that something you think Steven Fleming needs to try and get a grip on? Do they need more preparation time, or is he hamstrung again by the schedule?

Well, the schedule definitely plays a part, especially when you look at this current regime in terms of players playing across all 3 formats. There's a lot of multi-format players for England, whereas in the past there was probably a little bit more of a split between the Test and the white ball, there seems to be a big overlap now. So the challenge is to do that. But I guess now we're, you know, it's trying to find ways that when people are not involved in the white ball series— so whoever's not going to Pakistan, how are they then going to prepare for South Africa? Is he going to have coaches working with those players at specific times in the offseason? I know you're not out in South Africa training for that specific period, but you are in a period where you can work with players and spend a bit of time with them. So I guess that will be the challenge. And Be interesting to see how they go about that because you still have to prepare well, otherwise you're not going to win series in different countries.

Yeah, and there will no doubt be an awful lot of focus on quite how they do prepare going forwards. David, Stephen, thank you very much indeed. So we've heard there from England's new Test coach Stephen Fleming. In terms of the white ball team, well, they are flying in the T20 series. They've already won the series against Sri Lanka. Can they win the One Day International series as well? Well, we have Full commentary of England against Sri Lanka in the first ODI at Durham. That's this Tuesday from 12:15. Do join us for that. For now, from here, we'll say goodbye.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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