What have we learnt about England?

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The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

We're going to spend the next 25 minutes assessing England's summer, where they started, where they are now. I think it's fair to say quite a bit has happened this summer, even if the cricket hasn't always been the most compelling at times. Lots going on off the field perhaps rather than on it. Alistair Cooke is here, Michael Vaughan is here, Jonathan Agnew is here, and our cricket correspondent Stefan Schemmel is here. Stefan, let's start with you. Uh, where did we start and where are we now?

Well, I'll tell you what, I'll start with the end. If I told you at the, at the beginning of the summer that by September Joe Root would be England Test captain and Kevin Pietersen would be part of the England backroom staff, what would you have said?

I thought quite a lot has happened.

Yeah, well, it has.

Um, it was only 2 months ago, and it's— I think it's, um, hard to remember this given England's sort of straightforward progress through this series. It was less than 2 months ago, start of the summer holidays, that England didn't have a captain or a coach. They still really haven't got their coach. In place, but we started the summer with the Ashes review. Brendan McCullum, Ben Stokes, Rob Key all back to stay in their positions. And when England won that first Test match against New Zealand at Lord's, I remember leaving Lord's on quite a wet Sunday. The Football World Cup was about to start, and I remember thinking cricket's not going to be the story now for the rest of the summer. Football's going to start. Everything's going to be hunky-dory. England are going to sail through this. How wrong I was because it only took 24 hours. from that moment on to find out what had happened in the rec rooms. And that began that chain of events that led to Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson first missing the 2nd Test, Stokes coming back for the 3rd Test against New Zealand, retiring on that crazy Sunday at Trent Bridge. 2 weeks later, after that series that was lost, Brendan McCullum was sacked as the Test coach. He remains as the, as the white-ball coach. Then throughout that next little period, we had the hunt for a coach and a captain. Root is back as captain. Stephen Fleming will become the Test head coach, but that's not until December. He's due to arrive in the UK in the, in the coming days to sort of prepare for his spell as the, the new England Test coach. And then we've had this Test series as well, overshadowed a little bit by what happened with Brydon Kars in the early hours of that Saturday, Sunday morning in Derby. And while that all— that has all been going on, the England T20 side have become the number ones in the world, though I think they might have lost that place. Since then, and there's a pretty creditable series win over India. So it's been incredibly busy and it feels like it's gone by in a flash.

Yeah, indeed. And Michael, hindsight is a fantastic thing, but do you think, looking back at the summer, do you think England should have made a change, double change, after the Ashes?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think many said that at the time. You know, it felt like it needed freshening up after A really poor winter where the cricket wasn't right, the logistical side of the team wasn't right, selection wasn't right. Obviously discipline was a was a problem with the team. So yeah, you would say that change should have happened. It didn't happen. But what came after has surprised me, shot me. I'd be interested if if they'd have played Pakistan first, what would have been the scenario of of the summer? Because You know, we'll get on to where we're rating this England side and, you know, have they had a successful summer? Well, ultimately they lost the series that was going to judge them this year, which was the New Zealand series at home on the back of losing in Australia. If they'd have played Pakistan first, I'm pretty sure they'd have won 3-0. You know, this Pakistan side, as we keep saying, is a poor cricket team and you would expect to beat them. And then they play New Zealand after that. I'd be interested to see where, you know, the leadership would be.

So has the schedule done them a favour actually, in a way?

Well, yeah, has it done them a favour? Only time will tell. You know, Ben Stokes is out of the England team and it doesn't look like he's going to come back. He's obviously lost the captaincy and he's decided to retire from international cricket, which shocked us all. You know, that Sunday afternoon, I think that Trent Bridge will live long in the memory. I don't think I've ever been involved in an afternoon where so much happened from The resignation of Ben, a statement to suddenly getting a wicket with his next ball. To suddenly he goes out to open the batting. That Emilio gave bat 7. They batted as as as as crackers as they have done for the previous few years, and we've had some you know some interesting times with the batting hand under Baz McCullum. Ultimately, I I get a feeling that things happen for a reason, and I get a feeling with Joe Root as captain, Stephen Fleming as coach. I feel a little bit more settled about the Test team. I know this is a series that we can't judge the team on, and there's going to be harder and bigger challenges going forward, but sense seems to have come back, just a little bit of sense within the team and within the management. And that gives me a little bit more confidence, in particular Test match cricket, that we might see a more sensible approach moving forward.

So what do you think? What's the consensus here? I mean, in an ideal world, would Ben Stokes still be England captain or not, Jonathan and Alistair?

Well, interestingly, I mean, I think, um, it sort of sums up the summer when one of the most salient points and observations made about where England is now was made by Count Binface, um, who, who said, I wonder what would have happened if this team, if this team had played against, uh, New Zealand. Um, and he's right, you know, it does feel— I mean, Michael, it does feel much— it does feel more settled, feels more professional, feels more disciplined. And Stephen Fleming hasn't joined yet, and he is of that type. So I think England have got to a better place now. Yes, it is hard to tell because of the Pakistan team and their situation. But look at the way that Harry Brook has been batting, for instance, you know, and he did that at Headingley, did it here. Much more mature approach to batting, I thought, and one that's been lacking. And not just him, but just generally the lack of discipline, I think. In a way, looks even more sharper now when we see a more disciplined approach than even it was at the time. And let's face it, alarm bells are ringing at the time, you know, in Australia particularly. And then, of course, at the start of the summer, I mean, you couldn't have scripted what happened there, you know, with the reset and everything else. You look back at it now, I think that was just bonkers. How did that all happen? Well, it did happen. And it rather, I think, shows the depth of the issues that there were. But it does feel It does feel calmer. It feels more professional and more disciplined now, and that's thanks largely to Joe Root.

What about that question, Alistair, about Ben Stokes captain or not in an ideal world?

The ideal world for the England setup after losing the Ashes was that he would go through, lead again, regroup, and his final thing would be a year— would have been in a year's time. And and had a chance of of putting what went wrong right. The balance of the side is the one thing with Ben Stokes out of it. How much he makes a difference to the balance of the side. However, what I've seen over the last couple of games is on this series it doesn't matter. But he was such he became such a big personality in that side. You know, being the big the leader, you know, getting all the credit for when things went right, as you do as a captain. And almost, did he, did he almost outgrow that side? Now looking back, and whatever the power he kind of, and the influence he had on the side, as, as players can have when they become this player who's delivered on all these occasions, all the big occasions. And then, and then it does— did that hinder this side? And that's— so now looking back, Now the calmness that this side seems to go about their business, we— it's probably worse for us as pundits because we actually now know how this England side's going to play. Where under Ben Stokes, the last 2 years before that, we'd turn up and when people said, what's your prediction? I gave up trying to make predictions to the general public. What do you reckon is going to happen? I couldn't tell you. Actually, now under Joe Root and it's his characters and it's all going to be— it's a lot calmer. And maybe that is going to be good for the side going forward.

I have to say, I hope Joe Root has his moment next summer and he lifts the urn as an England captain. I would still love Ben Stokes to be the England captain though, but I'd love Ben Stokes to work with a Stephen Fleming or an Andy Flower. I've said it many times.

Would he be able to?

No, of course he could.

Because what Cookie was saying— well, no, I mean, you know, because he has become such a character.

Yeah, but he absolutely could have done. I mean, he made the call, he decided to retire, so that decision was taken. Out of kind of the equation, but I absolutely think over the next year or so we'll have a moment where you look at this England cricket team at the minute; they've not been challenged yet, and I want to see this team when it gets hot. You know, I'm not saying conditions hot when the pressure's really on, and you need someone to stand up under pressure and go, "All right, I'll change the game for us." I'm looking down at the minute and thinking, "Who are those players?" Now, I'm sure some of these players will grow into that kind of role because they've certainly got the talent to do so. But let's not underestimate. How much Ben Stokes has done for the England cricket team over the course of many, many years, and how many times has Ben Stokes got England out of tricky positions against the better teams, not against teams like Pakistan. So it's not going to happen. He's decided to move on. But I still would have loved to see—I've said it many times—you know, yin and yang is what you need in leadership. And unfortunately, with with Ben and Baz, it was yin and yin. And I'd love to see a Ben Stokes the yin with a Stephen Fleming the yang. And I think that. have been a great combination. It's not going to happen. And as we keep saying, this team at the minute looks like it's being operated with— we must mention Marcus Traskothic because he's taken the interim coaching role and it's all been very smooth. So I think actually Marcus Traskothic's stock over the last few weeks has gone up. You know, where he ends up, we'll have to wait and see. Whether he stays in this system, whether he goes to the Lions, whether he goes to a county, I'm not too sure. But I'd love to see Marcus Traskothic the next time round that we're talking about an England head coach, I'd love to see his name mentioned in the hat.

Stefan, we know it was on Ben Stokes's mind when he went to Lord's about, you know, standing down, or it didn't quite feel right. Do you think it was on his mind after the Ashes? Do you think there was that sort of doubt about continuing after the Ashes?

I can only remember talking to him about it before the Test match in Sydney, and he dismissed it out of hand that, you know, once the Ashes had been lost, that it was only natural for a captain to think, am I still the right person for the job? And he just dismissed the idea that he would even consider his future. And then when he eventually came to explain the decision to stand down as captain and to retire, what he said was, well, I went back home, I had lots of time to think. His injury happened with his eye, he thought more about it like that. And when he got to Lord's for the first Test match and lots of us thought there was something just not quite right, that was essentially Stokes already with these ideas in his mind and trying to to get it back, really, that feeling about, um, that he wanted to keep doing the job and he wanted to be in the dressing room. And then the Rex Rooms happened, and then those thoughts about, um, finishing sort of came gushing out to lots of people, and it almost happened. I think Cookie's point about, um, Stokes as a personality and how, and how that became essentially the team is a really good one. And a couple of things can be true at the same time, in that when we all left Australia A lot of us thought, well, Ben Stokes should still be captain, and Brendan McCullum and Rob Key are the people who maybe moved on. And it's fine to think that, and I think it was right to think that in that moment. But it's also okay to now look back at it and go, well, actually, maybe Joe Root is the best captain for this group of players. Because when Ben Stokes took over, he had a lot of people who knew him well, who were experienced— Chris Woakes, Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad, Jonny Bairstow— all those guys who knew what he was like and knew what he was going to be in for good and for bad. Now there's a lot of younger players who I think maybe might have been in Ben Stokes' shadow, and Joe Root can maybe get the best out of those with a calmer style of leadership.

Let's not forget that, um, very strongly worded tweet he put out as well, Stokes, about, I love this job and all that. I mean, that was in what, March, was it? So he then, he was still clearly very much focused on, on continuing as captain.

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Okay, let's move on from Ben Stokes. Let's look at the makeup of the side. People were saying, and they have said it, Ollie Robinson, where? has he been? I mean, again, it's easy to say with hindsight, but we, you know, there have been cricketers in the past who haven't fitted in under some leadership structures and then they flourished under others. You know, I can think of, well, Andy Caddick is one, Graeme Swann is another who flourished after being given an opportunity. What about Ollie Robinson? What about that situation?

Made a huge change. The whole wicketkeeping thing has made a massive change, hasn't it? And it makes him, in my opinion anyway, um, more likely to be successful in conditions where it's not actually quite so helpful for him. But the whole question of the keeper standing up, DRS, and him probing away at that, that pad, basically the front pad, just around about the off stump, I think makes him dangerous everywhere. And, and more and more, I think, will be copying that now. We must thank the Australians for that. Um, and Ollie Robinson, I think, must thank the Australians for that, because I, I just think that makes him That makes him dangerous everywhere now.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you look back, I think the England team became such a stubborn outfit where they wouldn't listen from outside. And there was many very strong thoughts going into the Ashes that they needed more preparation. And it wasn't coming from a, you know, we know what we're doing, but it was a care of the England cricket team that they were going to arrive in Australia and not prepare properly. And it obviously backfired on them. And there was many people saying it's not all about airspeed in Australia. You know, I've been down there for the last 8 or 9 years, and the best bowlers have been top of off stump, those that wobble the ball. And England went with this airspeed approach, and it was crying out for an Ollie Robinson style. And that's what happens in cricket and in sport. You know, you get a change of leadership. You see it in football dressings, the management gets sacked, and suddenly the few players, oh, we can now get selected. And that's the case here, that Ollie Robinson was brought back this summer by By Baz and Robert Key, so they saw that something was missing in the winter. They probably accepted that Ollie Robinson had worked a little bit harder on his fitness, and he's been a really good selection because he for me is is a real key to this attack with Josh Tong, obviously Joffrey, Gosaxton—they're a really good four. But you know, we didn't have a tone setter even last year against India. We didn't really have a quality tone setter at the the start of an innings, and I know he's not been challenged, but. You just know with Ollie Robinson, the first over, you're always on commentary. You know that that first few balls is going to be on a good length and the batter will have to play a forward defense. Whereas in the winter, how many times, oh, short and wide, crash for 4, Travis Head off and running. It was, it was just a common theme. So, um, you know, sense— I keep using that word sense— a sensible appointment of Marcus North, you know, a county cricket Guy that knows the game inside out in the UK. He knows players. He knows what these conditions are. He knows what you need. You know, so over the course of a bit of the chaos in the winter, I think we've ended the summer. I don't think it's been a successful summer because they've lost the series, which was the big series, New Zealand. But now I sit back and go, I know that there's a bit of sense with Stephen Fleming, Marcus North, Joe Root at the helm. You know, some of the selections, Dan Lawrence coming back in. Now that was a good selection because you need a bit of offspin. He's bowled a decent amount of offspin for Surrey. His batting's as good as anybody in the county game in recent times. So that was a really sensible selection. Yeah, so I've liked what I've seen in the last few weeks. Again, Pakistan, we can't judge it, but isn't that the problem though?

Isn't that the problem where we are at the moment? Pakistan?

Yeah, but sense takes you. I think sense will take them further. You know, if it had been more chaotic, kind of, you know, take a punt on selection and winning games too.

You can't— winning gets you going, doesn't it?

Yeah, you can't take a punt on selection when you're You're talking about an England trick. Again, you go about Josh Hull's selection, that was just crackers. Poor kid being thrown into a Test match against Sri Lanka. And there's been quite a few punts on selections. I, I don't want to see in Test match cricket England taking punts on selection. I want a bit more sense, and this series we've had it.

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Who's your 5th or 6th bowler to come in if— I mean, the big 4 have dominated the Pakistan series. Who's your 5th or 6th? Because there will be injuries along the line, won't Well, it depends.

It depends who gets injured, isn't it? It depends. I think we've seen with this 4 that it is a— there's been talk about how varied they are, and they are. They are very different bowlers, but they, they have that, you know, that Ollie Robinson doing that holding job, if you— the real accuracy. And then so if he gets injured, you'll then— you've got to shoot out between Fisher and Cook for that place. And then, you know, if One of the pacers goes, then you've got— then you're going, who's bowling best out of Sonny Baker or, or, um, Ryden Kars? Ryden Kars, is he going— is he— to be fair to him, like in the Ashes, he kept on going in real tough situations.

And he has got a big heart.

Yeah, just keep running in. Um, so yeah, so that— I think that's— that is where the select— that's where the administration of the side has to be good.

Well, just briefly, Seth, where are we with with Brydon Kars?

Well, he's available for selection. There's a, there's a police investigation ongoing into the incidents of what happened on that early Sunday morning in Derby. Until that investigation concludes, the cricket regulator can't do its thing. So I think it was only last week when England named a White Ball side when they said that Brydon Kars is available for selection. He's not been picked at the moment. They've asked him to sort of go away and, and have a little bit of a reset. Um, and I asked Joe Root about that before this Test match and said, do you want him in your squad? And he sort of clarified, well, look, he's He's still not been available for this test match. He is available going forward, and England's next decision—if this sort of holding pattern with the police investigation continues—in theory, Kars is available to go to to Pakistan for that white ball series, Australia and South Africa. Whether or not England want to pick him is a different question.

Yeah, I mean, Cook is right. I think Cook and Fisher are the kind of Ollie Robinson kind of backup. You got Braden Kars and Sonny Baker, Geoff Archer, Josh Tong kind of backup, and Gus Atkinson. And then you start looking at kind of formation. If you want your best. Spinner in the side, you probably need Sam Curran to be your number 6 and all-rounder so you can have your best spinner. And then you start going, who is the best spinner in the UK? England go to Bangladesh in the new year for 2 Test matches. They have to pick Jack Leach. Jack Leach is the best spinner in the UK. You know, you look at his numbers, you know, it's going to spin in Bangladesh. You've got to have your best spinner. And then I would say, you know, who's the best off-spinner? I don't think Shoaib Bashir— and it's not degrading Shoaib, it's just not the best off-spinner in the UK. I'll throw a name out there. I mean, Cookie's been talking about him. He's 28 years of age. He played for England a few years ago. I think he's bowling better than ever. He fields really well, bats quite nicely. I think Dominic Best is bowling as well as I've seen him. Now, I hope we're not in the stage of English cricket where, because it didn't quite work 4 or 5 years ago, that you're looking at a fingerspinner and thinking, oh, he can't get— he has got better. He's got better. He's played competitive cricket in all formats for Yorkshire. There's Jack Carson down at Sussex. I think they're two better offspinners than Shoaib Bashir right now. And if you want to win games of cricket, if you want to go to Bangladesh, I think it's a really hard tour. Bangladesh will be a tough team to beat in their own backyard. England have to pick their best spinners for that kind of tour. And I think as we speak, I think Jack Leach and Dominic Best are the best two.

Interesting. I'm not convinced about Baker yet. I need to see him more, I think. Ollie Stone, I'm going to put his name out there as a sort of an Atkinson replacement. You know, if you're talking horses for courses, yeah, he's that sort of full, fullish-length nippy. He's had a good summer, trying to get to 10 for you the other day. And yes, of course, there are always going to be fitness conversations about Ollie Stone. But if you talk about replacements coming in for one of the more senior ones, you might be talking about a game or two. Saki Mahmood, another one, is talking someone who, you know, reverse swing type. I know he's also had fitness issues, but he's fit and raring to go now. I mean, there are, there are others out there.

I was thinking about the squad for South Africa earlier on, and so the point about this quartet, and it's obviously it's great and they've been very successful, but England are only one injury away from either going to Fisher, who's only got 2 caps, Sam Cook with 1 cap, Baker with 1. The other bowler that was in a squad earlier on this summer is Henry Crocombe. I think he sort of is in the mix and maybe someone who'd benefit if Brydon Kars might use him if you want a hat trick.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, the man who took 2 in 2 weeks. And on the subject of the spinner or spinners in Bangladesh, I wrote down all of these names that could feasibly within be be in with a shout: Leach, Bess, Rayan Ahmed, Showit Bashir, James Coles, Will Jacks, Liam Patterson-White, Dan Lawrence, Mason Crane, and Jack Carson. There's probably more that I've forgotten as well. And that's not me saying that the the cupboard is full. It's me saying that there's a lot out there, and we're not entirely sure what they can do.

Yeah, realistically, the one who's going to play though is is Dan Lawrence, isn't it? I mean, you can see this this team that played at Edgbaston being the team. Well, or can you? I mean, playing in that first Test match, I mean, the Jacob Bethell issue.

So the Wanderers, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, this will be the team. I mean, and it's the right team for those conditions, unless suddenly the Wanderers become a bit drier than when I used to play there. But you need your quicks and you need your part-time spinner, you need to pack your batting. So I would think this will be exactly the team and the right team for those conditions.

What about Bethell? Yeah, so if Bethell's fit and played some cricket, then, you know, there's not been much Information about his knee, is there? Apart from he's had the operation, how long he's actually out for, no one— they don't quite know, do they? So the one thing I would say about Bethel, I think we saw this summer, he, he's still a kid and he— we've got to treat him a little bit like he does need some preparation.

He's played 9 Test matches, that's all.

But he needs preparation for every series as well. He's not like— if you threw Joe Root in, you know, with no Red Bull practice now and he's been doing something else, you'd be absolutely fine with that, you know. But I just think we've got to Get those basics back. Yeah, to really help him as well and help the England cricket team.

Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, he's a wonderful talent, but you know, he's only a human being. You know, if he's been out for 5 or 6 months and you're throwing him into a Test match at the Wanderers against South Africa, you'd hope that he's had a few games to justify that selection. If he's right and he's playing nicely, absolutely comes in at number 3.

Just very briefly, do you think Ollie Pope would score more runs than Dan Lawrence at 6?

Um, oh, that's a good question.

Um, because he's not a 3, is he?

Yeah, potentially he would. Potentially he'd get a few more, but he wouldn't offer what Dan Lawrence can offer with the ball. We haven't seen a great deal of his bowling yet, but if it's spinning, um, when you have 2-day games, you don't get to your spinner. I mean, how many overs of spin have we had this summer? It's probably the lowest ever.

Dan Lawrence has bowled— well, barely bowled in the Pakistan series.

Just throw in one name, Jamie Smith. You know, there was a few question marks about him at the start of the summer. Keeping and and batting, and I think I think he's he's nailed that down. He's nailed his keeping down. He's had a good start.

His keeping's been brilliant. Yeah, really good. I think his batting—he's still still not quite back to where he was when he started. Whether that's just that confidence and that or I used to walk him out when he got out there in the middle. He had this aura about him for a young for a guy who just came to the game. When he walked out, he was like he was like bullying the bowlers a bit. And I think his experience over the last twelve months in Australia. And getting bounced out a bit and not scoring the runs he had to, I think it's had a bit of an impact on him. But I think his keeping, like, there's no question how good his keeping has become.

But that again, you mentioned Jacob Bethell, let's treat him with a bit of sense and give him some creep before he comes back in. I'm sure they will do under this management. And you look at Jamie Smith, every morning now you look down and there he is, he's down there with Sarah Taylor catching tennis balls. It's almost like you're looking down at Alex Carey. Alex Carey in the winter, every morning for 30 minutes catching balls. We didn't see Jamie Smith catch any balls in the morning apart from the bowlers who ran. It was like the old club match, you know, just take a few from the— all kitted out with the pads on. Now there was no drills, there was no kind of diving around. So it just tells you Matthew Prior went through that process with Bruce French, didn't he? He did, where he just worked and worked and worked and became an incredible wicketkeeper. And it looks to me like the old adage of a bit of hard work has paid off for Jamie Smith.

Jonathan and Stefan, degree of difficulty of that South Africa series For England, I mean, Pakistan. Okay, lots of wins, lots of big wins dispatched. What about South Africa? High.

I think it's really high. The world test champions.

Yeah, they are. And but having not played a huge amount of test cricket in the meantime, but they will.

They look they will have done. Yeah. I mean, that series against Australia is really mouthwatering.

Rabada question mark.

Yeah. Big big injury for him. Yeah. The point I'd make is that. Once again, we're ending a summer where we don't know how good England are. If you think back to 2023 Ashes, drawn series, we weren't entirely sure. '24, they lost to Sri Lanka at the Oval, we weren't sure how good they are. Last summer, drew with India, we weren't sure how good they are. Same again.

Proper English people grumbling when we're winning. It's just, just the way we are, isn't it? Hey, we're picking the team apart.

Excellent. Thanks very much, everybody. Well, there's our review of where we think England are at the moment, and, uh, Well, as always, I suppose, in most sports teams, it's room for improvement.

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