Fleming’s first interview & County Championship finale

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We're going to hear from England's new Test head coach very shortly, Stephen Fleming. Final round of the County Championship games are on the way, so we'll look ahead to them as well. Joining us this evening are cricket correspondent Stefan Schimmel, former England captain Alistair Cook, and former England wicketkeeper Matt Prior. We will hear from them after we first of all hear from England's new New Test head coach Stephen Fleming, former New Zealand captain, was appointed on the 30th of July. He only arrived in England last week. We'll hear him talk here about his relationship with Brendan McCullum, his coaching style, and his thoughts on England's discipline issues. First though, here he is on his love for English cricket.

I had some great years playing county cricket, in particular with, uh, with Nottinghamshire. So to be able to go down the M1 to certain grounds and remember games and people and It's all part of it. It's a really important aspect to me. I loved that time. I was coming to the end of my captaincy and I was on the edge of falling out of love with the game. And I got a call from McNeill to captain Nottingham and I, I won't say fell back in love with it, but it kept me in the game in a really positive space. And they were 3 of my best seasons.

Was that connection with the English game part of the reason why you took the job?

Yes. Yep. Easy answer. And I didn't realise how disconnected I'd been until I got an opportunity with the Southern Brave. And those 2 years again reconnected me. kindled those feelings of joy and fun and how cricket should be played and my respect for English cricket.

But that respect would have been there anyway if you hadn't have got a call from Rob Kee. So what was that conversation like? Were you surprised to be asked? Did you need much persuading?

It was an interesting process because I was just in the process of leaving Chennai, which had been 18 years of sort of my life in that franchise world. So there was a lot of thought around that. So it was a period where I was resetting to do something, and they say timing is everything, and the position became vacant at a similar time. Not related, but it was then a case of when I got a call from Rob was some deep thought. It wasn't straightforward because family's very important to me. I had commitments that I'd set up based on how my years had been run before that, and also self-reflection about my ability to do the job and whether I was the person, the right person to do it. So there was a lot of thought. It was a long, thorough process. But once I got a little bit of a burn in the stomach for it, it was hard to ignore.

But you didn't take it straight away. You weren't in charge for the Pakistan series.

Well, I did.

I did.

Yeah, but it was just the case that then there was commitments and family commitments that I had that I just wasn't in a position to break. And that's more about me as a person than dropping everything and coming over here. There were responsibilities that I had. I watched and connected with Joe and the team Straight away once it was approved. I've got a stress fracture in my left ear from phone calls, but we'll deal with that. But it was about attitude and then connecting to the team in a way that from remotely it was almost not always an advantage, but watching them operate just now with eyes wide open as to what was expected, the opportunity, the challenges. And there was also another part introducing Joe back into captaincy and Marcus Traskothick the opportunity to to do the head coaching role. That's part of why I love the game, is bringing people forward, developing people, leadership. And they did brilliantly. And it gave me an opportunity to catch my breath and then start pretty fresh with a clear mind on what's ahead.

What conversations have you had with Brendan McCollum, both before you agreed to take the job and after that?

Really honest ones. And that's how our relationship is. It's based on a lot of shared experience. And he was, yeah, he was heartsore that it worked out that way. But he was incredibly positive about the experience and opportunity And he's been unwavering on that. His belief about where these teams can go is strong. And that was a major part when I was talking to him about doing the role. Also, how he had been treated within the ECB, which is another question. And that again was very, very positive. So he really endorsed the opportunity and that was a big part. Although I think I knew internally that it was something that I was wanting to do and was going to do.

Can you take us inside that relationship that you have with Brendon? You obviously go back a long way, friends, teammates.

Business partners.

What's that like?

I'll bet on the favourite and he'll bet on the longest odds possible. So somewhere in the middle. Look, I love his confidence and his aggressive nature balances. I'm more measured. Somewhere in between, we've got a beautiful working relationship with a huge amount of respect. I have so much respect for what Ben Stokes and Brendon did with this English side, what, 3 years ago? That changed the landscape of cricket and that's a really powerful thing. And I was in awe with what that team were doing and how they were doing it. The last 12 months, the evolution piece, teams caught up. There was talent that was lost. A lot of reasons what sort of just flagged, but that's now my opportunity. But doesn't change the respect I have for what they did with the English side.

You just said, you know, the reasons why the last 12 months maybe didn't go the way that Ben and Brendon wanted them to. What are your thoughts on those reasons?

Well, it was 1,000 wickets lost. Anderson, Broad, and then Wokes. Others caught up. When you do something special and you start doing it differently, Everybody else takes a bit of time, then they catch up. So the pressure then goes on evolution, and that can create some challenges. Not being in the inner workings, that's my take on it. The Ashes wasn't what they wanted, and that's what this team is measured on. And again, all I can think about is now my opportunity to pick it up and maybe add my style, which is looking at personality a little bit more measured.

Style is a word you just mentioned. Does a Test cricket team have to have a style? Do you have to commit to a brand?

Yeah, that's a really good question, actually. I don't think so. I think the greatest thing for a team to do is to be able to play conditions and situations, both pressure and positive. And one thing that this team has earned is the ability to be positive. One of the other aspects is winning the tough moments and making sure that we don't just play entertaining cricket and win moments, but win games. And cricket is a really tough game. It keeps asking you questions. So winning those moments and being able to identify them and work our way through them. And I look at a captain like Joe, Joe is a brilliant problem solver. So relying on him to create a style of play based on the way he plays is almost a perfect blueprint.

And that being said, when you said a team doesn't necessarily have to commit to a style, it needs to adapt and all those sorts of things. What's your style as a coach? How would Stephen Fleming describe—

Look, I'd love to be— if people were watching the team and say they're well planned. There's a discipline, there's a really strong basic structure to what we're doing, but there's also a bit of flair. And that's not necessarily me in the way I played, but it's what I loved about this English side when they started playing like this. So it's taking the best of that and adding, yeah, that planning aspect. If the supporters would look at us and say, yeah, they're disciplined, well-planned, and competitive, that's a good start.

There's a more serious side to what's happened with the England team over the past 12 months, things that have gone on off the field. I know that you haven't been involved in the setup, but what's your observation been from a distance?

Yeah, it's been disappointing because I understand what people are working to and working towards, and these events can derail a lot of things and divert attention from what really matters. So yeah, disappointing. And I look at it and again, the opportunity would be to make sure the standards within A fitting of an international cricketer. And I'm going to use Joe again. When I look at epitomising an international cricketer and what they should stand for, it's Joe. And when he sits in an interview and openly expresses his disappointment or uses hacked off, then I know there's work to be done. And also a little bit of sort of the belonging piece, identity piece. What are we doing here together? How can we be the best version of ourselves? So a lot of that work, and that's begun. That was one of the— that's one of the key things for me to develop, and in my work with Joe, that's begun.

What's your attitude towards discipline? Is that something you're quite strict on?

Well, I think you need to behave in accordance of your position, and we're in a very privileged position, and it's understanding that privilege but also what goes along with it. It can't be convenient. You can't have when it suits you, do the right things, and then when you don't want it to suit you, not. So you've got to live it every day. If we can create something where you want to live it every day and be better, that's really powerful. It's unicorn thinking, but that's where we need to get to. And the disappointment is that there are times when the players have just forgotten to be living in that moment, and that's an area of work on.

We had a development last night with Brydon Kars. Before then, the ECB said he is available for selection.

I realise there's a process to be going through at the same time.

Do you want him in your squad?

Yeah, it's a tough one. It's still part of the process, so that limits a little bit until that But he is available? Yeah, he is available. There are standards. We pick on runs and wickets primarily, but I think it's foolish not to say there's also standards that need to be set. And we just got to be careful to make sure that the people that represent us are the people that the club cricketers, the people that follow English cricket, are proud to have us wearing the lines.

Now, there's another player who said he's not available to play for England in Test cricket. That's Ben Stokes.

Yeah.

Have you Have you spoken to him this week?

Yes, yeah, I have. I was lucky enough to catch Ben up in Durham. He'd just come off another monster bowling spell and he was in a great space. He was really happy. He was enjoying his time with Durham. He's got a good winter planned with the family and very much at peace with his decision. And when a player makes that decision to retire, I respect that 100%.

So there'd be no sense of you giving him a phone call if he wanted to change his mind? He'd have to come to you?

Yeah, I respect his decision too much. to try and turn that round and question that is wrong. And I know how much goes into that type of decision, and I respect it.

Just as a New Zealander and looking ahead to what's coming in the future, do you ever look at English cricket and think, wow, you guys are far too obsessed about the Ashes?

No, because I have an obsession with it as well. New Zealand has an obsession with it. We love it.

But do the results of the England team, are they too—

Yeah, we want to beat Aussie. So we're heavily linked to England performances. We have a deep desire to beat Australia in everything. As the little cousin. So no, we are linked and that is— I am incredibly excited about being part of it. You don't think you're ever going to get that opportunity, so to have that opportunity and be part of it, I can't wait. And I want to be my best self and have a team that represents itself in the best possible way. I've got a vision of that and it's aspirational. It'd be brilliant.

And just finally, and sometimes I feel like this is a silly question of asking someone what they want to achieve because You know, you want to win everything, you want to win as many series and as many matches as possible. But if I could throw you forward to the time when you're no longer England coach, what would you be able to— like to say that you have done?

Well, I'll pass it on in a position of strength. I think that's a real powerful thing for a coach to be able to do, is actually leave and pass it to someone who has equal or more success. That is one driver. To look back and Yeah, selfishly to have ticked some of those marquee series off for a World Test Championship. You know, I'm very ambitious, but I'm also realistic. It's the New Zealand way, you've got to downplay it. But yeah, I look, I dream and have a vision of that for sure.

And beat the Aussies.

Beat the Aussies.

I think we'll see Test head coach Stephen Fleming with Stephen Shemilt. Stephen is here, Alistair Cook and Matt Prior are as well. Before I bring those 2 in, How did you find him?

He was impressive. He looked everyone in the eye. There was a press conference before we did that interview. He took in every journalist's name who asked him a question, repeated that name back to them. There was a maturity about him. I thought he looked a bit like a retired James Bond with the dark hair. He covered a range of topics, the style of play, Brendan McCullum, Ben Stokes, the Ashes. What you didn't hear in that interview was his occasional habit for turning up in fancy dress just to relax his team. But the first press is probably the easiest one he'll do. You know, he ticked off some pretty simple things to say. He wants to win games of cricket, he wants to be strong on discipline, he wants to play the right way. Not too difficult to hit the right notes now before a ball has been bowled. I think he's got a difficult job, probably more difficult than Brendan McCullum when he came in, but he's made a good start.

Why?

Because when Brendan McCullum came in, even though England had won only 1 match in 17, He was dealing with some seasoned Test cricketers that probably just needed tweaking and putting back on the right path. James Anderson, Stuart Broad, Jonny Bairstow, Joe Root, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood, list goes on. Stephen Fleming, even though England have just won a series against Pakistan 3-0, has got a much more inexperienced team. 3 of the top 6 in South Africa, whoever they are in that first Test, will still be making their way in Test cricket. Jamie Smith's had a difficult year. Not too sure about the bowling attack, even though that four-man seam attack looks good. There's not loads behind it. Not 100% sure who the spinner is. Haven't got an all-rounder. Haven't got Ben Stokes.

Before we come on to all the different subjects that came up in that, you look quite pensive there, Matt.

No, pensive. I don't know. That's interesting.

Are you not used to being called pensive? Is that throwing you?

No, exactly. You've absolutely thrown me there.

Pensive.

Brilliant. You look like you were— look, you looked like you were really contemplating, and this is the bigger picture thing before we get down to the details. You look like you were really contemplating Stefan's point of him having a bigger job now than McCollum did when he took over.

Yeah, I don't necessarily agree. Um, I, I think Stephen Fleming's got a pretty clear, um, job right now. Um, certainly not easy. Look, being in England, being the England coach is never going to be easy. I suppose if I was being— if I came across as pensive, it was more because I was really interested in a couple of these quotes I thought were fantastic. And it's actually what we need. So I actually took notes. Maybe that's why I was pensive. I was having to write stuff down. He used words like measured. We need to be measured. When tough moments Behave in accordance of your position. Now, that for me, I love that. Because that is a coach who is going to take a team to the best, to number one in the world. That is a coach who is going to take a team to win the Ashes. Because the games change. We all know that, right? But there are certain fundamentals, particularly in Test, the longer format of the game, that don't change. You have to win. So that question I thought was a really great question about, you know, Teams, we talk about brand and style of play and everything else. The conditions and the game dictate how you play in Test cricket. They have to. And you have to be— that's the beauty of the longer format game, right? Alistair Cook can't go into bat— if he's opening the batting and it's flying around and it's swinging and seaming and everything else, he can't just throw caution to the wind. He's got about an hour, hour and a half. See the— I mean, he always used to moan about it. You know, he'd get his 20 off 100 balls. But we'd have Peterson and Bell and Collingwood who would come in later, right? But because Cook's done his job and he's got through that tough period, they can then go and play their shots. They can then attack an older ball, you know, tie bowlers, etc., etc. The game dictates, I think, the style that you play. You then have to be good enough as an individual and as a team to firstly understand what the game and the situation the game is dictating and then How you play. You can't be a one-trick pony, and I think Fleming gets that, absolutely.

Do you think Alistair, who also looked pensive when Matt started talking about him batting— but I'm not gonna keep going down that route— um, did he remind you of maybe some of his predecessors in his— in how measured he was in what he was talking about?

I just think it's amazing how you go from one style of leadership to another depending on The setup. So I would look at captains. You might have an aggressive captain, then it's followed by a less aggressive captain because what the team's got used to one side, then you kind of have to balance it a bit the other side. So I, I— McCallum and Stokes came in and they've— we all know about it, repeating old stuff— came in to try and rip up the stuff. And now the team is now crying out for some stability, some sensible heads. And some people who are going to be a lot more measured— measured, good word— calmer, I suppose. I think for us pundits, it might be a bit— we might go back and say we wish McCullum and Stokes were there, because I found it quite hard to be a pundit in one sense when people said, what do you think is going to happen today? And I could safely say quite a lot of those days with Stokes and McCullum in charge, I had not a clue what we're going to have to witness in those— in that 6 and a half hours of cricket was going ahead of us. I think now we're gonna, we're gonna go back, um, to that. We actually will know what's going to happen. We're gonna see people try and play in certain ways, try and play the conditions. And, uh, and I'm intrigued to see how good these England players now are where they actually have to adapt to that as well. Because under Stokes and McCallum, it was one way for, for pretty much 75% of the time. That was, you know, we heard it a lot of times, I want people to run towards the danger, I want people to attack all the time. Actually, now Under Fleming, who I think was pretty much the only person who you could work with Brendan McCullum as a one-day coach there as well. Due to their relationship, we're going to see players, you know, being able to play whichever way they want in the conditions allowed. And I enjoyed those 3 Test matches against Pakistan for one sense, actually. You saw players trying to play the situation. They weren't pushed that hard, but you go back and watch the couple of bits of cricket which I I thought actually was Test match standard and real gripping was that Harry Brook, a bit of bowling, batting against Abbas and Dan Lawrence at the end when the lights were on, it was nipping all over. We didn't see one scoop shot, we didn't see one attacking shot. He realized how he had to bat, try and get through the next 20 minutes. And so you're seeing a side that will be allowed to do that.

And I think quite a lot of people will know that is the way probably to be a slightly more consistent I think that's kind of the point I'm making though, Cookie, when you talk about when change comes and often it can be going from one extreme to the other. And I don't think this is 2 different extremes. Fleming and McCullum will definitely be different. I don't think it'll be polar opposites, but it's an entirely different England team, isn't it, that Fleming's inheriting from what McCullum and Stokes had? And that style freed up some experienced players that had gone through a tough time, had gone through COVID.

Yeah.

Whereas Fleming has taken on a group of players where a lot of them essentially need teaching how to play Test cricket because they're so young in their careers.

Well, I think that's also— we can say the same about Joe Root's captaincy as well. If you go back to when Joe Root took over, he had a lot of experienced players in the side, and he probably felt that. Actually, now looking at that Pakistan side where he captained, there was a lot less experience, and the real only senior player there, is Joe Root. So he instantly gets that kind of respect. So it's the same for Joe as well. So I'm, you know, you list off the problems that no all-rounder, no spinner, 3 out of the top 6, you know, you could be uncertain of. But a side's got to start somewhere. A side's got to start, and those players are allowed to develop into good players. So I don't think that the lack that, you know, if we're not going to get Steve Spin, play a part in the hottest summer in decades. And I don't think that's ever too much of a worry in our country. And we saw 4 seamers who looked pretty decent.

Let's delve into some of the subjects that he talked about then. Both of you, as Test cricketers, what was the pinnacle for you both? What, when you set out as a Test cricketer, was the number one Goal or or achievement, Matt.

This this this might be an unpopular opinion, but look, Cookie Cookie and I were both very fortunate to play certainly in that period of time in a very good team that won won a lot.

Right?

We won in India away. We won in Australia away, home and away. But but the pinnacle for me was when we beat India four nil in two thousand and eleven and became the The number one test team in the world. That, and we got that ridiculous mace. Yeah, that no one knew what to do with. But that, that for me was the pinnacle for that team. And the reason for that is because that was the goal we had set two year, eighteen months, two years earlier. It was to be the best test team in the world. Now, of course. Along that journey, we had to win in Australia. We had to win. We had to beat India. We had to do all of that. But the goal was best test team in the world, and we achieved it. Winning in Australia, of course, was huge, and I will never forget sitting on the Sydney on the outfield, the Sydney Cricket Ground, with an esky of beers and just the whole ground empty. You know, families gone back to the hotel, press weren't there, and it was just the squad with a beer sat on the Sydney cricket ground having just won in Australia. I mean, it just, it literally doesn't get better than that, right? But the goal was to be the best Test team in the world. And it's, I think it's been, I think it's kind of right. I think we've, England, the England cricket team I think has disrespected Test cricket a little bit. In that it's given absolutely nothing to the World Test Championship. It's like literally it's not been a thing. Winning the Ashes is sort of the only winning in India. Those are separate series. Now, of course, they're important. I get it. I get the monetary side of things. But the game, the World Test Championship, that is, that is now, that has to be a feature, surely.

I think we're all— I also think we're all kind of complicit in that because I don't think I've had a discussion, well, certainly not this year. I couldn't tell you what the table was for the World Test Championship. And I do think that is a media-wide thing.

I think England as a country are the outliers in world cricket when it comes to the World Test Championship. I think other countries pay it much more respect Do they? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I do. Particularly the smaller countries as well, because they've got quite a good chance of progressing deep into it because of just the way the point system works. Smaller series, if you win those matches, it tends to count for more. And actually, under Ben Stokes, Stokes admitted that he was pretty dismissive of it, that he didn't really—

He said in 2023, I've got the quote, in all honesty, the World Test Championship is a bit confusing. It's one of those where, you know, we don't really look at it.

Yeah, and but actually the bottom line is if you win loads of Test matches, you get to the final. So that's how it works. And Stephen Fleming addressed it. He said England can do much better than that. Even just the attitude around overrates he raised. England have lost loads of World Test Championship points with their overrate. You know, it's worth remembering Stephen Fleming is a Kiwi. New Zealand won the first World Test Championship. So he's even addressed that as a potential goal for his time as England coach.

I wonder whether that's the thing, Alistair, whether you set that internally and then the better you do in that Test Championship, the more the, well, the cricketing public and the general public are aware of it once you've, you know, and yet it's still the Ashes that will have all the noise around it.

Well, when you're languishing 7th or 8th in the table, then it probably has little interest for them. That's what the England side, it is slightly tougher for an England side And possibly other Australia that you know during each cycle you either play Australia away or India away for a five test match series. So that it becomes that's not that easy. And you know once a generation you go there and win. The over rate thing is massive for me, like just a clear indication of where you operate. I think Steve War said and when he was captain Australia, the operate the over rate. was a real good indication of how much you cared about the team. If you were behind it, it means that there's 10 of you, 10 other guys, if you're the captain, 10 other guys actually weren't that fussed about it. It's a really— so, you know, such a simple 1%. I think with Stephen Fleming, you're going to get that real attention to detail about stuff like that. And I think— and it's amazing what you can do. So if you sit in a room, like Matt said about, we sat in a room and said, World 1 to number 1, we want to become number 1 in the world. And it honestly looked way off. We had to win this, this, and this, and actually came a lot quicker than it actually— even Andy Flower and Nathan Lehmann, I think we're about 18 months ahead of it because we actually play well. If you've got one single goal which everyone's united behind, I think we sat in that meeting as batters and the bowlers were operating on and around world-class level. There's a line like strike rate, average, wicket. They were on around world-class level. Well, the batters, we were, I think, on average just batting, um, partnerships or runs per wicket, or about 5 or 6 runs behind the world's best, which would be in Australia at the time. So if you're looking around, if you're looking at the room and everyone looks at the top 6 and go, actually, you're the one, you're the reason why we're not, you know, we're at 5 or 6 at the, in the rankings, not 1 or 2, you're the reason. So you either get better or we find someone. That was kind of a real, like, I think for me, a real realization. Actually, that's down to us. We've got to get better. And so, real clear focus absolutely helps. The World Test Championship, I think you pay it some attention. I'm slightly different to Matt. Winning in Australia or winning the Ashes where you've played a significant part will absolutely be what I remember from my career. But if you are— there's a tournament to win and you play the Test matches the same as the other 8 or 9 countries, You want to be part of that World Test Championship final, you want to play in it. And the Ashes along the way, if you're asking between the two, I think 99.9% of players will say winning an Ashes, absolutely. But you can, you're allowed to focus on both and should be good enough with our resources in our country to be focusing on both and not just, you know, washing one under the carpet.

That overrate discussion that Stephen Fleming had with Stefan, but also the way Alice has just framed it there and what Steve Waugh said about it, and then going on to, Meetings with strike rates and so on and so forth. It's the details, Matt. It takes me back to when you were at your most angriest around the defeat. But your point about the defeat in Australia was the small things that weren't happening in the field, going to get a bowler's cap from the umpire if you're one of the fielders so that they aren't You know, going, covering even more distance than they need to. Those details, the early impressions are, those small things, Fleming will be on.

Definitely. And that's why, again, coming back to the word pensive, I was interested because it was a relief. It's a relief to hear a coach come and, look, I think McCullum's a great guy, a good coach in the right circumstances, certainly white-ball cricket. Super positive. I think Fleming said himself, McCullum will always back the longest odds and Fleming will back the favourite. Well, you back the favourite when you've done the research and you've got the details, right? And that's what ultimately what Fleming will want to do, I think, in that short 11 minutes that we heard him, is he will want to make sure that going into any game, England are the favourite because they've done the research, they've done the prep, they know exactly Well, and that, that's what the team, again, that, you know, Flower-led, that Cookie and I were part of, that went to number 1 in the world. It was every single detail. And, and Cookie's absolutely right, slow over rate. If we come off and we were 2 overs down or whatever at lunch, we would get an absolute rollicking.

Hmm.

So what are you doing? The coach would come over to me and go, what are you doing, mate? Get those guys to hustle between overs, get the bowlers capped. Find a way. You can't just say, oh, well, we've got 4 seamers, we don't have a spinner, so that's what, you know, that's not an excuse anymore.

Yeah.

You've just got to hustle. You've got to hustle. And that is every single man. Again, Cookie or Steve Waugh, both of them are absolutely right. That is a team decision. And what's tricky about that, or what's tricky about that decision, is it is a completely selfless decision. There is no one measuring your stats. On how quickly you get, you know, does the wicketkeeper shuttle between the overs every single over? Does the you know does the gully run up thirty yards, get a bowler's cap, and take it to the umpire? Those are the little tells, the little signs. There's no average for that. You don't get you know headlines in the paper the next day for for doing those jobs. But those are the jobs that make you better. Those are the jobs that make you better than the opposition. It all adds up. Of course, you've got to do the basic skills right as. You know, again, as Cookie says, you've got to be best in class. You know, strike rates, batting averages, partnerships, bowling averages, all of that stuff, of course. But when you're getting to the real high-end pinnacle of performance and high performance, all of these other elements make actually a huge difference to the overall picture.

I'd give you a headline for doing those things.

I might come back, mate.

I should have battled Cookie.

Come on, the racing Between the overs to try and get to try and get that over rate back up.

I'm all about.

I was get I was too busy getting a cap.

That's my job.

That's why united.

My my question though is if Fleming wants to bring these things in, if he wants to bring in these details, and even if some of them are quite dull, how quickly does he need to have success in order for the players to know that it works? And so the reason I ask that question is because. It's forgotten, I think, a little bit that England won 10 of their first 11 Test matches under Stokes and McCullum playing in a certain way. And maybe they stuck to that method too long because it worked for them when they first began and then it unravelled. So does Stephen Fleming need to have success in order for the players to buy in?

Can I add then a subsection to that question, Alistair? Which is, surely they know his methods already work and that obviously by being a detailed coach that he is, he's won several titles in a short format. He's not done Red Bull Cricket though. No, I know, but if you think that T20 is crash, bang, wallop and et cetera, et cetera, if his methods have worked there where it's very detailed, surely they already know that he is a successful coach, whatever the format. I don't know, you guys tell us.

Well, he's got a great record in the IPL, and I don't quite know the dynamics between his relationship and MS Dhoni, but from what I know, that obviously MS Dhoni ruled when he was captain of England— he ran India, sorry— he ran the side as you would, and the coach supported him. So Fleming's had to deal with that as well, you know. That's, uh, to be able to coach, to be coached, um, to be the coach of someone as big as MS and deal with that and be successful shows that he can adapt. So then he'd have to adapt slightly to different to Joe Root. I just— going quickly back to the other point, I don't think it was forgotten, Stefan, that England won the first 10 out of 11 games. I think people hark back to that and say, do you remember those periods that when, when it was that fresh and it was so exciting and it blew sides away? Um, but I, I think then, then it showed unfortunately the lack of, I suppose, preparation and, and detail. And hindsight is a wonderful thing, that when people worked out how to play against them They didn't adapt, they didn't change, they didn't, uh, see how, uh, could they do things differently. They still piled down the same path time and time again and, and got lesser results from it. I— you have a feeling that Fleming, uh, uh, won't allow that kind of thing. McConnell and Fleming are so different in terms of their approach. I think everyone will know that, everyone sees that. No, I'm Again, you can be a great coach with average players and you're never going to win anything. But I think what we have seen in this England side is that they've got some really good players. Yes, they're not the complete side and you're going to— and they always could— well, not always, but there are some holes, there's some space, there's some gaps which needed to be filled. There's people, you know, the 3 out of the top 6 inexperienced. You only get experience by playing and scoring runs. So you're looking at Cox, Gay, uh, in particular, to go and, you know, to bang out 3 or 4 hundreds in the next 12 months. And that's what you need. That's— if they want to be successful, that's going to do that. And you just think Fleming will help them do that. He can't obviously do it for him. You think Fleming, him helping Root, it makes sense. It makes— the appointment makes sense, you know. And you, and you just think, yeah, you're not guaranteed that in 8— in 3 years' time they're going to be the best side in the world, but it feels as if Fleming won't let any stone unturned to, to get as close as he thinks he can with the side. And then it's down to those 11 players or the 20, 20-odd players that he'll use over the next 2 or 3 years to go and do that.

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What'd you make, Matt, when he said afterwards, just looking at culture as well, he said, when Joe Root sits in an interview, And openly expresses his disappointment or uses hacked off. I know there's work to be done. There are standards. We pick on runs and wickets primarily, but I think it's foolish not to also say there are standards that need to be set.

Love it.

I think it's brilliant. I think it's absolutely brilliant. And you know why I remember that Joe Root press conference? Because for a number of reasons.

One, it was his—

well, the first thing he did when he came in again as, you know, second stint as captain, everyone was thinking, oh, you know, how's this going to go. And the one for me, the one thing I wanted Rooty to do was own it and be his own, be himself, and do what he believed was right as England captain rather than do what he thought others wanted him to do, whether that's the ECB, the press, whatever it may be. And to walk in and to basically go, we're getting rid of this curfew straight away. I mean, that was a big statement for me because you're basically saying to Rob Keeley, I don't agree with you. Cheers, mate. I'm the captain. I'm taking control of this dressing room. I thought that was amazing. For him to then literally a week later be let down by one of the team, one of the people that he's tried to stand up for ultimately and say we're going to be adults, we're going to be responsible, we're going to be professional. The ball is then back in Joe Root's court. You think, okay, how is he going to manage this? He comes out a day early. He wasn't meant to do that press conference. He was meant to do it the day after, right? But he comes in early. And he just quashes the story and he just goes straight up and he says, and he's honest, he says, I'm disappointed, I'm angry, I'm hacked off. I think he was, you know, sure we could use many other words they probably used behind closed doors, but hacked off was what he chose, um, at the time. And again, I just thought, good, I'm so pleased he came out and took the opportunity to really set a tone. And you bring Fleming into the frame now You're absolutely right. You've got to pick, you've got to pick players. Yeah, of course they have to score runs. Of course they have to take wickets. Of course they have to be good enough. Their skill level has to be good enough. Absolutely. But you've got to pick characters. You've got to pick the right people. Stephen Fleming spoke about growing, growing them as men, growing them as people, not just as cricketers. And I think that is, that is really crucial when you go and play in Australia. It's not just your batting and your bowling that gets tested. It's who you are as a person. It's your resilience. It's your professionalism. It's your mentality that gets tested. And you have to have had that challenged. You have to have set the culture within the dressing room. What do we stand for as a team? And that's why, you know, I wrote down, behave in accordance of your position. I think that is an outstanding line from the coach.

And do you think, Alistair, he will— I mean, he will set his tone, but he will allow Joe, the experienced captain that is Joe Root, to set the culture within the dressing room?

Absolutely, I think he will. I think that will be one of— I mean, I don't— this is— I say absolutely as if I know. I have very little dealings with Steven Fleming. at all. Like, the only—

I just thought— sorry, Alistair, I just thought the fact that he mentioned Joe Root there implies a— this is a captain who will set the culture in my dressing room.

And also, he described, if ever anyone needs to look at a person, how to represent yourself as an international cricketer, it is Joe Root. And I think everybody would look and go, yeah, I, I doff my— I agree with that statement. And also, just probably From a lot of people saying, well, for us guys who have played with Joe, he enjoys winning as much as anyone else as well. He enjoys what winning brings to the changing room and the fun you can have. And he understands it's not going back to your room and watching the highlights, drinking water as well. So he's got that balance.

Absolutely.

And he has done that balance. Absolutely right. Obviously he's probably changed as a player. We'll remember those, you know, in 2015 when he was doing the Bob Willis impression with the mask on when he was getting interviewed by Ian Ward. I mean, probably won't be still doing that as a 36-year-old captain, but, uh, I, I think Fleming will see what Joe Root's really good at and see what— where the dressing room— how much that dressing room respects him. See, let him fly all that, and you'll see Fleming behind the scenes, in my opinion, is a guy who looks really controlled, really intelligent, saying, right, where does Root really need his help with the captaincy? Where can I help him? And then just help him underneath the water, those little bits and bobs which all captains and all leaders need.

I think the help for Joe Root is also quite interesting because most of the debate that we've had this evening has been about culture and details and standards. And I was thinking when Matt was talking and lots of things that Fleming said that Matt liked, It reminded me that Joe Root is the only England player left who played under Andy Flower, and a lot of the things that Fleming has said could have been said by Andy Flower. But with the help that Fleming can give to Root is also remembering that Fleming was an excellent tactical captain. And a couple of the times this summer in the 4 Test matches that Root has been captain, when we've seen him under pressure at the Oval against New Zealand, and then when Raza Rulla got going at Edgbaston— Mm-hmm. Some of those old worries that we had about Joe Root's captaincy came back to the surface. So maybe just that tactical side that Fleming can bring to Root's going to be really important as well.

Yeah, you shouldn't underestimate the international captaincy side of it from Fleming's point of view, should you actually? Alistair?

No, absolutely, it's a great point, Stephen. First time for everything. But it's, um, thank you. The, um, no, he, yes, he hasn't coached Red Bull, but you know, he made He made the best of that New Zealand side, didn't he? When he was a captain, you looked at some of the success he had. And also at Nottingham, when he captained Nottingham, you speak to some of the Notts players who played with him, they only have good words to say about him as a captain. And I think, again, that surely, I don't know, surely must help as a head coach of an international setup when you've been the captain of an international team for as much as he has done and made the most of You know, all the ability they had.

Um, let's talk County Championship then. We've got just over 10 minutes left of Five Live Cricket. Alistair Cook, Matt Prior, Stephen Shemelt with us. County Championship season draws to a close later this week, just before we hit October. Final round gets underway on Thursday. Hampshire already relegated from Division 1. Durham have been promoted from Division 2. The title race in Division 1 going right down to the wire. So Warwickshire lead the way, they're 11 points ahead of Somerset. Somerset in second. Somerset still going for that first ever County Championship title. Current champions Nottinghamshire are in third. They're 15 points behind Warwickshire. These final round of fixtures: Warwickshire play Leicestershire, Somerset take on Surrey, Nottinghamshire play Yorkshire. Let's talk to Warwickshire captain Ed Barnard now on Five Live Cricket. Thank you very much for joining us, Ed. What, what are you monitoring most at the moment? The weather?

Yeah, evening, Mark. Yeah, a little bit, but I think, I think the weather's set fair for this week, so hopefully it'll be an exciting end to the season.

When you— how many mathematical things are going through your head then at the moment, and how much will you put— can you put that to one side when the game gets underway, given the difference that you have ahead of Somerset and Notts?

Yeah, I think there's obviously a lot going on. I think 14 points for us is the sort of the golden mark. I think if we get that, then we can't be surpassed. But for us, we're in, we're in a really good run of form. So first and foremost, we're just going to try and win the game. We know if we win the game, we win the league. So that's our aim. Like I said, we've won 4 of our last 5. So I think if we can try and continue that run, it kind of takes away any mathematics, maths or weather worries.

I saw Chris Woakes recently before one of the days of the Test match at Edgbaston and he was saying that in this day and age, and he's been available for you this season, of course, but he said in this day and age, you've got the white ball stuff, you've got franchise cricket, but for that group of men that arrive at the start of the season in a county dressing room, this is still the one.

Yeah.

The County Championship is still the one.

Yeah, definitely. I think it holds the most prestige between especially our lads. There's been a lot of talk about it. We've also been very lucky to have Chris this season, having finished his international stuff last year, and he's been amazing around the group, not only with his skills that he brings but also the experience. And he's a proper Brummie lad as well, he's a Birmingham boy, so I think it will mean a lot to him to win it. But yeah, it's definitely number one for me personally. It's the one I've always wanted to win. It's a big reason why I've I moved up the road from Worcester was to try and win it. So to be in with a chance and being with a shout of it is a really nice place to be.

What's worked for you this season as a group then?

I think our bowling attack especially has probably been our biggest strength. We've obviously been led by Ethan Bamber, who sort of alongside probably Carl Abbott this year have been the leading Red Bull bowlers in the, in the country. I think Ethan's took 60 wickets. You add Chris into that, Ollie Hannan-Dolby, who went out on loan at the start of the year but has come back in brilliant form. Nathan Gilchrist, Jordan Thompson. So we've got a really good crop of seam bowlers, and then we've added Manav Sutar, who's an Indian Test spinner who's sort of been the final piece of our jigsaw for this back half of the season on a couple of drier wickets. He's offered us that control with his left-arm spin, but also a real threat because he turns the ball a lot. And I think in the last Test he bowled ahead of Jadeja, so he's a pretty special talent we've had added to our squad.

You wonder whether last week— I don't want to curse anything for you, obviously— but you wonder whether last week was the decisive week really for you, or round of matches for you, given how comfortable you beat Essex and then Notts and Somerset. But sorry, Alistair, I had to bring it in. And then, then not— you could throw Lancashire back at me at the moment, but I mean, I'm trying not to talk about them. Um, uh, and then Notts and Somerset both lost, Ed.

Yeah, it kind of went as well as it could have done last week to get To get that game wrapped up in a couple of days was obviously gave us a couple of days extra off, but then to watch sort of the streams and a few of us were on the golf course on Friday when some of the wickets were falling off in Yorkshire. It obviously put us in a better position, but we're definitely not counting any chickens yet. There's a lot of points to play for, and the other 2 teams in with the hunt are very good teams, and they've got— they'll be hoping their chances are as good as anyone's.

Ed, how much of a bonus is it when someone like Chris Woakes has such a long international career and then still wants to come back and play for Warwickshire and win trophies. And Cookie did it when he finished playing for England and went back and, and won things with Essex. Like, what does that do for the dressing room when he comes back in and sets his standards?

Yeah, it's huge. Like you say, he's played at that level for a long, a long time and a lot of years, and there's a lot of lads in our changing room who want to go on and play at that level. So that first and foremost, allowing them to tap into his knowledge But then also, like I say, his skill set's still there. He's still a brilliant bowler. He's more than capable with the bat, and he took a brilliant catch in the outfield the other day. So I think across the sort of county cricket, to have players like that coming back in and wanting to win it just helps to keep that standard as high as it can be.

Leicestershire are your final opponents. We're going to talk more about them shortly with that big points deduction they've got ahead of this final game. Is is that a hindrance for you? I know you'll just tell me that you can only concentrate on what you can concentrate on, but it probably changes their mentality and their dynamic a little bit.

Ah yeah, possibly a little bit. I think obviously they all feel like they've still got something to play for. I think mathematically they can still stay up, so they'll they'll definitely be coming to try and win the game and give themselves the best chance. I know obviously the the deductions hanging over their heads as well, so they'll have a few grievances about that, I'm sure, and. They obviously played in a really good final yesterday in the 50-over final, and from watching a bit on TV, their fans seem to be seem to be quite loud. So I wonder if you know them might make it down to Edgebaston this week. But no, they're they're a very good team. They're a very good squad. They've had a decent season. They're probably unfortunate to find themselves where they are. But yeah, we're definitely not taking them lightly.

Loud and with very strong opinions. I think that's the other thing to point out. Ed, thank you very much. Go well. Good luck. No worries. Thank you. Ed Barnard with us, Warwickshire captain. who lead the County Championship. It probably, it is, isn't it, Matt? I'll just go back to, and Alistair, before we talk Leicestershire. You know, when you are a county cricketer and you're in that dressing room at the start of the season, it's a long season for you. And I know that the Blast comes along and some of them will be in the Hundred or whatever, but for a group, for this group who go up and down the country, you know, in the little sort of periods that are allocated to the County Championship, This matters.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, well, Ed's just said that it's still the biggest, yeah, the biggest trophy for county cricketers. And that, to be honest, that's great to hear as well because it should be. County cricket is as attritional as it's gonna get. I mean, the players always refer to it, you know, the county grind. It's, you know, you're on the road, you're up and down every, you know, it's hours in the field, it's hours toiling, getting wickets, winning games. It's a long season. Yes, okay, it's broken up now by, as you say, the Blast and the Hundred comes along and everything else. But still, very rarely— I mean, well, you have to be the best team over the course of the season to win the Championship. No one just accidentally becomes the, you know, wins the Championship. You have to be— you have a consistency You have to have resilience through the season. You have to have players again. Your squad strength has to be good because there's always going to be injuries, players coming in. It has to be very well led, I believe. So Wokes and the you know how he's been in the dressing room. I mean, Ed himself as as captain of the team, he he will have had a strong influence on that. So yeah, I think you know anytime you win the championship is a huge privilege and. One that any county would be very proud of.

Let's just talk Leicestershire then. Adam Whitty from BBC Radio Leicester joins us. Deducted 27 points for breaching pitch regulations in their victory over Glamorgan were Leicestershire. The penalty was imposed by the Independent Cricket Discipline Panel. Sounds like one for us.

Is there any chance you and I can get through a Monday night?

I mean, I did look at you as if that was your fault. I mean, I mean, who the heck are they? Anyhow, so they're now 19 points a drift of safety heading into the final round, so they need to beat Warwickshire and hope Essex lose to Glamorgan, which prompts another look from, from Alistair. Uh, Adam, 27 points. I mean, is that, is that comparable to previous point deductions? How surprised were you when you heard that?

Yeah, 27 points was a bit of a kick in the teeth for everybody. The, the irony is it's not comparable to what has gone before, but the rules retain specifically so that they wouldn't be. They had been applied sort of pitch regulation deductions a bit inconsistently in the past, and so the rules were sort of firmed up ahead of this season, which was whatever points you get out of a game where you have a pitch that's rated poor, you lose immediately, and then you are given a 16-point deduction on top of that. Those are the rules. Now Leicester fans are going to come at me with their pitch Pitchforks are saying this. There is an argument to say Leicester got off lightly here because they got 8 points on top of the 19 they won against Glamorgan in that game with another 8 suspended. So it seems incredibly harsh and Leicester should certainly feel hard done by, but there's an argument given what the regulations are to say that they got off a tad lightly.

Was the pitch that bad? I mean, I've got the scorecard For the match in question against Glamorgan, Leicestershire 151 and 257, Glamorgan 152 and 214. I mean, I don't want to go back to being a Lancastrian, but trust me, I've seen a lot lower scores this season than that, and the pitches haven't been in question.

Yeah, so look, there's 2 sides to this really, because you're absolutely right, those 2 second-inning scores, Leicestershire's Sheridan and Gunns got 93, Kieran Carlson for Glamorgan got 99. Players learnt how to bat on it, and comparably, scores around that weekend were all pretty low as well. However, this was not a punishment really because the scores were low and that the pitch was difficult to bat on. It was because it threatened really the injury, the, the safety of the players. There were a lot of players getting hit on the hands, and, and Matt and Alistair will know this a lot more than me. but as soon as that starts to happen, the bounce wasn't true, it was inconsistent from the first day, but as soon as you start getting hit on the hands all the time, there's a real risk of injury to the players, and that, that is why this punishment has come. Is it— Leicester's argument would be, was it the only pitch worthy of investigation this year? Probably not. I think you could have an argument about that, certainly, but this, this— I have read the 24-page report over what's happened here.

Yeah.

So that you don't have to.

Thank you.

And one of the first sentences is that Leicester accepted the pitch was poor because of a whole number of slightly comical and strange reasons, but they accepted that it wasn't the best pitch.

Okay, and you've got to feel for the players, Alistair, haven't you? I mean, you have to.

Yeah, and certainly for a side like Leicester who, if you'd have said at the beginning of the season, Uh, they would have been odds-on favorite to go back down with pretty much every pundit and the size of the county, and they've done well today. I mean, I mean, I obviously have not— was not there. Some of the pictures though of that pitch are just— it's comical. Like, it's the picture I saw of like that actually— like, there's a—

it's—

I mean, you have to question someone to say, yeah, we'll, we'll do that and, and expect it. There can be a lot of seam movement And there could be a lot of swing on a day and there can be low scores. But when you turn up to Wicket and you see 2 lines cut, one so it's the actual proper line for where the spinners are going to bowl, and then long grass in the middle, and then another line for the spinners to bowl the other end, and you just think, why have they done it quite so obviously?

Yeah.

And I found— I mean, I don't quite— I mean, that's the picture I see. Obviously, until you actually see it, it might be a little different in life, but I thought it was a little bit Clumsy from Leicester.

Just on a final thing though, Adam, here, that, that the ground— the head groundsman has said that the circumstances were out of his control due to an unscheduled filming event.

Yes, so what Alice is talking about there is we were nicknaming it during the game the mullet because it was short at the ends and mid-long on top, um, and basically they were trying to get the best out of their bowlers essentially. I don't think it was that, you know, um, I think it was what you're talking about there, Mark, which was that the pitch had dried out. There was hot weather there, and there was the fact that due to this Bollywood filming— Virinda Sehwag biopic, I understand— um, the ground staff weren't, weren't able to go near the pitch for about 3 or 4 days, and they were left uncovered while that was happening. So all the moisture came out of the pitch, and they weren't able to prepare it in the way that they would. Um, I, I don't think it was the mullets' fault, sadly, because they've done it in previous years. They did it last week and it played fine. Um, it was, uh, it was the moisture in the pitch.

Adam, thank you. BBC Radio Leicester's Adam Whitty with us. Just shakes his head and heads in hand all round at that final bit of detail from Adam. Matt, Alistair, Stefan, thank you very much. Ball-by-ball commentary of every game in that final round of County Championship matches via the BBC Sport website.

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