A rout for Root in first Test back as skipper

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So Joe Root's first match back as England captain ends in a thumping victory, an innings and 103 runs here at Headingley, with Pakistan bowled out for 135 in their second innings after 171 in the first innings. All the England bowlers joined in today— Jofra Archer, With a couple of early wickets, Gus Atkinson finally taking his first wicket of the match, and the game was over well before tea. In a way, Pakistan perfect opponents for England in Joe Root's first Test match. We thought Pakistan were going to be nice and prepared coming into this after playing 2 Test matches in the West Indies and playing a warm-up game as well, England playing at the Hundred. But actually England have totally outplayed them, Michael Vaughan.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, you, you look at Pakistan in their preparation, it couldn't have been any better really. A couple of Test matches in the Caribbean, they win a game, the first win for a long while. Uh, they win a warm-up game as well against a decent professional, uh, Cricket Association team, and they came here and they've just been completely outclassed. They've, uh, come up against an England side that have obviously got a bit between their teeth. They know that they have to start winning games, and this is the perfect series for England to get back on the winning trail. I thought England were excellent from the moment that Joe won the toss. The first ball wicket. The tactical side of what Joe brought— it's an easy game as a captain because you're not challenged by any of the batting unit that you were up against. But I thought some of his tactical maneuvers, particularly today, the leg slip first ball, flicked it straight to him. Dan Lawrence taking that catch just behind square on the leg side. So everything has gone the way of the England side. Joe's had the perfect week. He scored a few runs. A couple of players coming into the side in terms of Dan Lawrence at 6, got a 5 for 1. Yeah, I think Jordan that's a really good point. Cox back in at 3, he gets runs. You couldn't have asked for a more perfect week from an England cricket perspective. For Pakistan, I really fear for them because, you know, they've been absolutely blown away. They've been hammered, and they've got a lot of soul-searching to do over the course of the next few days to try and get some kind of spirit, some kind of fight. I don't know what they can change. You know, they haven't got express bowlers that they can bring back in. They've got Babar Azam, who will obviously bring a bit of experience, but I really fear for them. It's just a matter of can they find just a way of playing that will put England under a little bit of pressure at Lord's. You know, Test cricket is a funny game and things can change. But from what I've seen from Pakistan this week, it's more, you know, how Pakistan cricket is now. You know, I look at this side, I feel quite sad watching them this week because I've seen some great Pakistan sides and players over the course of many decades and generations. this side just seemed to have been lacking all that spirit and the fight that we kind of become accustomed to seeing Pakistan players have.

Yeah, they looked meek, timid, those sort of words really.

Yeah, I've never seen a Pakistan side look so timid and so short of ideas. Tactically, they weren't quite there. And sometimes when you're looking at the tactical side, Brisbane not coming up to the stumps on that second morning straight away, going, surely you have to come up to the stumps to Mohammad Abbas. So tactically, they've not been there, but I think the skill levels and the The gulf in class between the players. England have got a decent set of players, particularly here in the UK. Pakistan look a long way short. So I just hope they can find something over the course of the next few days. They're going to get criticized, rightfully so, and hopefully that'll trigger them into some kind of spirit and fight to come back at Lord's and put in a better performance and challenging England just that little bit better than we've seen this week.

How would you sum up Pakistan, Jonathan?

Well, yeah, there's a gulf between the two teams, isn't there? And I mean, I'm with Michael. Pakistan cricket teams generally have a flair player or two, somebody completely unusual, somebody brilliant, an unusual bowler or, you know, a batsman with real flair. They haven't got that. Obviously, with Babar not playing makes a difference. But, you know, just look at the fielding. You know, that is such a barometer really of how a team is playing. I think It's another Groundhog Day opportunity because I think I'm going to— I'm going to interview an England captain after a victory, which is really nice to do, Joe. And I bet you're happy as well. It's been a while.

Yeah, it has. It's been a really good week, to be honest. You know, from winning the toss and getting the opportunity to bowl first on that surface, I think we exploited it really well. And then once we got in the driving seat, we drove the game the whole time. So Really proud of the performance. I think as a bowling unit, they've shown all the talent that we know they've got.

It's a decent attack, isn't it?

It's a very good attack, and I don't think they quite know how good they, they are just yet. And but the more they can perform like that and we can back up performances like that very quickly, I think they'll start to realize and prove to themselves what they're capable of doing at this level.

Yeah, as a captain To have bowlers like that to call upon is fantastic, isn't it?

Yeah, and like I said, I think they complement each other brilliantly. There's great variety within it. We've all got different, slightly different skill sets, and, you know, at different times throughout the game, I thought they bowled in partnerships really well as well. So again, it's a great way to start the series. It's kind of, can we keep evolving with it and, you know, recognize what the surface is going to be like at Lord's and try and exploit whatever that brings?

You set a leg slip, get a catch. Backward square leg, get a catch. I mean, just things went well too, didn't they?

They did, yeah. And but, you know, you can set whatever fields you want, you still— your bowlers have still got to deliver. And sometimes you set fields for different reasons. You know, you might sometimes put leg slip in to try and keep the leg side of the ball and bring the slips in more into play. Sometimes it works out exactly how you see it. So, you know, you're always trying to make plays, try and find ways of taking wickets. And like I said, the guys execute brilliantly. We thought we caught brilliantly as well. Which is important. So, um, I'm not even touching on our batting. I thought, you know, Coxsey, the first time batting at 3, looked very composed, very in control, very organized. Dan coming back in at 6, again getting a score under his belt, having not played for a long time in an England shirt, was really impressive. So there's a lot of really good stuff there, a lot to build on. And yeah, really pleasing.

Yeah, they've got a big smile. Let's mention Harry Brook, the tempo of his innings, which Which he has been criticized in Australia for the— what some of the reckless shots that he played. Is this the way that you think he will play from now on? I mean, he's—

it—

he just looked calmer. Um, I mean, he's gonna score a million runs if he bats like that, isn't he?

Harry Brook's gonna score a million runs anyway, um, regardless how he bats. I think one of his greatest strengths as a player is, um, recognize or seeing the game how he does. You know, he's very good at— and sometimes you're going to get it wrong, right? I mean, look at Kevin Pietersen's career and you look at You look back on it now and you think, look at all the wonderful things that he achieved and the amazing moments and innings that he plays and games that he won because of how he played. But those sort of maverick players, they always seem to be under scrutiny because of their ability, because of the amount of shots they have, the amount of options they have, and the way they see the game sometimes allows them to win games on their own with individual brilliance and sometimes will leave people with— in slight frustration. What we'll say is, 26 years old, he averages over 55, and he's He's still very much— even though he's the best player in the world, he's still very much learning the art of Test cricket and the fact that there are different occasions, different surfaces, and different ways to construct an innings, and he's capable of doing all of them. So I'm not worried about Harry Brook at all. You know, he's got a brilliant cricket brain, he sees the game amazingly well, and he'll continue to score runs. I think, yeah, it's a great, great way to start the series for him again.

And Root 2.0, great start. You happy?

Great start. No, really enjoyed it. Really pleased for the lads as well. You know, coming in from the Hundred in particular, no prep, you know, sort of interim period with Steven Fleming not here yet. And for us to be so clinical, so organized and To deliver on a lot of the stuff we spoke about is is great. So you know, on to Lords. There'll be new challenges. There'll be different things to contend with. We know Pakistan are very proud team. They're very got some very good players, and we'll it'll be a completely different set of circumstances there. So we have to ready ourselves for that. But you know, brilliant to start a series like this.

Good to see him between dead up there on his crutches.

Yeah, I know. He's milking it, isn't he?

Yeah, he's milking it. Nice to see you, Joe. Enjoy it.

Well, Alistair Cook is down here as well. Alistair, I mean, those are kind of the easier interviews, aren't they, as England captain?

We haven't had many of those recently, let me tell you.

Absolutely. And they should be given credit as well for winning. I know very easily you talk about how poor Pakistan were, and I go back to— clearly doesn't— a great start when you get a wicket first ball, but that first hour At Headingley to bowl, to bowl that fuller length, uh, was outstanding. And all of them did it. All, all of the bowlers bowled that fuller length, uh, and I don't think that's as easy as it's just said. So they were excellent in the field and they never let Pakistan back in the game.

Well, Marcus Jaskothik is here as well, who's the, the stand-in coach. Jonathan?

Yeah, well, there you go. A lovely start to, uh, well, wherever, whatever part of a reset we're in, Marcus, but you couldn't start much better than that.

Yeah, delighted. Um, you know, so much good stuff that we, we've done over the course of the 3 days. And, you know, we've been tested in different areas and we've had challenges in, in different parts, but, you know, I think we responded really nicely to, to what we wanted to try and do. Um, you know, and there's many good performances from individuals across the 3 days that we're very happy with.

Yeah, how important was it, given everything that's gone on, uh, in, in the recent months, that you did have this sort of start?

Well, it's always good, isn't it? I think, you know, you want to come in and sort of set a marker down and Just get a bit of feel-good feeling around, you know, keep the energy within the group. You know, change is always a little bit difficult, and when you've had major changes as we have, you know, there's always that little bit of trepidation of sort of, well, what's it going to be like and what are we going to do next? But, you know, myself and Joe just tried to keep it nice and calm, use the parts that we believe have been really good from, you know, the past sort of tenure. But And then sort of tweak and sort of guide and give, you know, hope for what we're going to be doing going forward, really.

I think calm's a good word. It did feel calmer. The pace of the batting was a calmer tempo. And so is that what you've really tried to impress on them?

Well, I think there were still parts of the game where we were scoring really quickly. You know, our main aim is you've got to put pressure on bowlers, and we've got to be able to Score heavy, score big, score fast when you need to, but you've got to be good enough that you can adapt and sort of read situations. I think over the course of the day yesterday, there was definitely parts where we were challenged because of the conditions. The lights were on, the rain was around, and it wasn't easy, but I thought there was definite periods within the game that we read the situation nicely. And players coming in, not playing many games, played the fashion that you you kind of want them to play. And the skill— they showed the skill that they, that they have, that we've seen. So all in all, I think, you know, combination of different things, you're very pleased with it.

Yeah. And you, Marcus, I mean, you're sort of in a temporary role at the moment. I mean, do you see yourself extending that and working with Stephen Fleming? How do you see the future?

I'd love to, first and foremost, because I think I have a huge amount of respect for Stephen and, you know, what he's done in the game. He was a fantastic captain and leader, and he's been brilliant, you know, doing the jobs he's done as coach. But it's really not in my job or my position to be able to judge that. As I say, we'd love to carry on. We've had a great time doing what we're— what we've been doing, with some success and some challenges. We'll wait until we get a tap on the shoulder and say, look, this is the direction that's going to happen at some point over a couple of months.

I hope it's a favorable tap. Marcus, thank you. Thanks for joining us.

There we go.

Talk to you soon.

So that is Marcus Traskothic. We're going to hear from Ollie Robinson, I think, fairly soon as well. He is the player of the match. Did you notice a small sample size, Michael? Because it only lasted two and a half days. But did you sort of detect a slightly different approach from England in this match or not? Or is it hard to say?

I think it's hard to say. I think it's hard to judge. What was really important that they had to win a game of cricket, and they've won it in a convincing fashion. So you have to give them full credit. Well, I thought with the bat in hand, I didn't see many of the batters dance down to the seams to try and launch over mid-off or over extra cover. I didn't see any ramp shots. I saw control, even though they scored at a quick rate. I saw a lot of control.

Ollie Robinson, now you've played 2 Tests, you're man of the match twice. What's going on?

I don't really know. I'm just rolling out and trying to do my best, really, and it's working at the moment. I'm sure there'll be a lot worse days than And the last 2 games I've had, so just trying to stay level and do my best really.

That's it. And to get a wicket first ball of the game, that's amazing, isn't it?

Yeah, it's great to set the tone like that, not just for myself but for the team. I think as a group of bowlers, we're trying to be ultra consistent, and when I can set the tone like that in the first over, I think it sets the template for the rest of the game. And we feel like as a bowling group, as soon as one or 2 of us click, the rest of us seem to click as well, and kind of just follow each other. So I think— I thought everyone bowled well this week. Gus only got one wicket but still bowled really well. Jof lit up in the second innings there with the new ball. And I think with the 4-man pace attack that we've got, I think we'll be seeing a lot more of that where guys are sort of getting a lot of wickets in clusters and then the others are chipping in and sort of helping each other along the way.

Yeah, because you're all a bit different, aren't you? So it's a really good foil actually.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm just trying to be as consistent as possible and tweak my skill, and I've got guys at the other end bowling 90 miles an hour, which is always a nice, nice place to be. I feel like the batters are coming a little bit harder at me because of it, and it brings me into the game more. So we do complement each other really well.

Tell me how the 80 miles an hour bowler gets downhill with the wind and the 90 miles an hour fast bowler comes up the hill. Well, how have you managed that?

So at Hove, Jof bowls up the hill and I bowl down, and it's worked well at Hove, so we kind of stuck with it. To be fair, first day the wind was Going across the ground and perfect for Jof to hold it away from the left-hander. And then Rooty wanted me to start this end today because of the first innings, so I got away with it this week. I don't think I'll get away with it at Lord's next week.

Lovely to see you, Ollie. Well bowled.

Nice to see you.

We'll catch you soon.

There we go. That's Ollie Robinson just shaking hands with Alistair Cook and, and Michael Vaughan. How much did you like to have captained this 4-man pace attack, Alistair?

Well, they're certainly, uh, they've got the potential to be a very good 4-man pace attack. And I think over the next 12 months, the key for England's success will, will be those 4 plus the others constantly improving, because I still think that their ceiling is high. Remember, I had some fairly decent bowlers to captain along the way with Broad and Anderson, etc. But this is a slightly different attack in terms of extra pace. But yeah, potentially very good.

What about you, Michael, on that one?

Yeah, I mean, they've got potential in terms of all the pace that they have, the skill levels of Robinson. I think in the UK are going to be the key for this attack because he offers control, he offers that tone setting with the new ball, as we saw with the first ball. You know, you can't put them in a level yet until they go away to South Africa and damage the South African side. Obviously the Ashes You know, we can't get too excited. I mean, it's one Test match into a new start. Great, they've won a game of cricket. There's not one England player or fan that wouldn't have expected England to win the Test match. But what they've done is completely hammer Pakistan, which is what good teams do when they get— you get the chance to be ruthless. And by being ruthless, you really, really beat the opposition. That's what England have done this week. But look, this attack has got something. You know, you add a Matthew Fisher into this attack or a Sam Cooke, in English conditions, you know, I look at the way that Ollie Robinson's bowled this week. Would you want another kind of Ollie Robinson as well with the keeper stood up at times? I, I would in, in the UK.

So would you change it around a bit?

Oh, I think the next 2 Test matches, um, it is a— and I'm not saying England are at the stage where they can be funky with their selection, but I wouldn't be against— win the series at Lord's, go 2-0 up. But someone like a Sam Cooke or a Matthew Fisher, I'd like to see get a game, uh, in this series. This is the kind kind of series if you're looking to build that cartel of quick bowlers. Bringing Brydon Karsch back in for a game, uh, does Josh Tonge, Joffre Archer, Gus Atkinson have to play all 3 Test matches with the summer that they have? Possibly not. Um, as I said, they're not at that stage yet until they've won the series to be funky with selection. But I don't think it is being funky with selection bringing in a Fisher or Sam Cook in English conditions when the ball— you know, we're going to be into September by that last Test match and the ball will continue to wobble around a bit, uh, and I would like to see them try a 2 and 2, a 2-star Ollie Robinson bowling attack with a 2 pace bowler, just to see how it would go in English conditions. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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Straight over to Jonathan Agnew because he's got Pakistan's captain with him.

I do, Salman. Hello. That's disappointing for you, I think.

Yeah, England has outplayed us and they have been outstanding in every department. And yeah, we were missing in like every department to be honest. honest, and we just need to brush this game out and turn around things in lots.

Yeah, what, what particularly were you disappointed with?

I think in both batting and bowling, uh, we were not consistent enough. That's what's missing here in England. You have to be consistent every single ball, and when it comes to batting and bowling and even fielding as well. So we were missing that.

Yeah. Were you surprised at the way that the pitch played as it turned out?

Not really. I was expecting the pitch to play like that. It was Good enough pace to bat, and it was everything for the bowlers and batter. So it was a very good pace to play a cricket game.

Yeah.

England's pace attack looks quite strong. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, they were very consistent with their pace and length as well. So that's why they outplayed us, and they were consistent with bat and ball as well.

Yeah.

Well, you've got a few days to think about this. What are you going to dwell on? What are you going to do? You go to Lord's, you you get settled in, you have some practice?

Yeah, we'll have like 2 days off and then we'll go to Lord's and then, then we'll sit down and we'll definitely think about what mistakes we did and what we can think about the next game. And definitely we will come back stronger.

Good. And Babar Azam will be back, do you think?

Hopefully he'll be back for the next game.

Okay, Simon, thanks for talking to us. Good luck. We'll see you at Lord's. There you are, Simon.

Rameez is here as well. Well, how do you reflect, Ramiz, on Pakistan's performance in that game? And what can they do, if anything, really? I mean, they look— they feel a side that are kind of just below the level required, really.

Yeah, I mean, what was damaging was that England only operated at half throttle and yet won by innings. I don't know what Pakistan can do because it's limited resources, unlimited wants and limited resources. That's not going to work, I'm afraid, unless somebody gets a big seen in both innings, they couldn't play even 50 overs. And to survive in England in Test cricket, you've got to at least aim for 80 to 100 overs batting. And the bowling appears to be toothless as well. I mean, medium-paced stuff, that is county stuff here for some of these English batsmen. So that's not going to hassle England at all. It's just about somehow clicking, regrouping, something extraordinary to happen in the next couple of Test matches. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say, but they're doomed.

Yeah, I mean, you do have that feeling at the moment. I mean, people have turned up in this Test match and thought, what's happened to Pakistan? And the last time England played Pakistan, actually Pakistan won the series, albeit in quite unusual circumstances where Pakistan said, right, we're just going to play on these ultra-spinning pitches. So one was a used pitch and then one was kind of deliberately made dry, wasn't it? And people say, what has happened to Pakistan's Test team?

Yeah, I mean, strategy. I mean, it's gone for a toss. So you're trying to produce a one-dimensional team that can only win certain Test matches on a certain surface, and that's just not good enough for the world because the world rates Pakistan cricket and some of the exciting talent. And well, you've discouraged pace bowling, uh, and because so many players just want to play T20 cricket, that's an easier route to success in Pakistan. I guess elsewhere also in subcontinent. That they're just not bothered about playing Test match cricket. And so you've got to create that environment where they buy into this. The youngsters feel that to become a star, you need to perform at the Test match level, and that's just not happening.

We've seen West Indies fall away. I mean, are we thinking something similar might happen to Pakistan, or is there such a strong tradition of cricket in Pakistan that they can sort of haul themselves back up again?

I fear for the worst. You see, the first pillar has fallen, and that is the fans are disenchanted. They're not going to back this team, and who would? I mean, you know, if you lose, what, 17 Test matches in the last 20 that you've played, nobody's going to back this team. So the other part is that, well, is there— are there new players coming through the system? The batting is below par even at the under-19 level, under-17 level. The bowling, yeah, there are 2-3 quicks, but they're not being exposed to this form of cricket because they feel that they're still brittle. But I think these are desperate times for Pakistan cricket to, to make a comeback through pace. I mean, pace has always been our pedigree, but if you discourage the DNA that completes us, what's the point of then playing Test cricket?

Well, I mean, that's kind of an existential question.

Yeah, I mean, that's the reality actually. So, and you know, I've been sort of part of this group as a chairman of the board, and things were working relatively okay. I mean, we weren't really scaling heights in Test match cricket, but at least we were competitive. And the same group, it's the same group basically, 80% of the boys are the same. But I don't know what has happened. I'm not saying it's through completely bad management, but it's just that the boys, the players need to rise up to the occasion. It's up to them. It's the egos, it's the reputation, it's the fans that are being hurt. So you've got to take that, that responsibility and, and swell and do better.

Jonathan, how stiff a challenge was this though for, for Pakistan, playing in suddenly quite different conditions? They played in the Caribbean, didn't they? And it was hot down in, in London when they played that warm-up match and then turn up to Headingley and it's cool, it's, it's rainy, and they were put in to bat as well.

Yeah, I mean, what— it was challenging for them. I think what was disappointing, I thought— I think we talked about it yesterday, we said that they looked, they looked like a team hadn't played. They look rusty. And, you know, we go back to the fielding again and the consistency of the bowling and the way that the batsmen got out. It just looked like a team hadn't been playing cricket very much. But of course they have. Uh, you know, I'm, I'm with Ramiz. You know, it It was a little bit odd, that last series in Pakistan and the reused pitch and the one that was sort of manufactured.

It felt very short-term, didn't it?

Totally short-term and unrealistic. You're not going to want to be a fast bowler if you look at that and see, well, that's the way that our cricket's going to go. You're not going to run in and try and bowl fast, are you? And Pakistan has always— they've always had quick bowlers, good quick bowlers. And with that ingenuity that we talked about the other day with the reverse swing and all of that, you know, Pakistan's quick bowlers And their spinners too have always been a bit different. They've always had a bit of flair, a bit of something, a bit of the unexpected about them. But this attack, I'm afraid, it is— it's very county level, if you know. Even if that, apart from Hamad Abbas, who's obviously a good bowler, but he had no real support. And the batting just looked a bit timid. It looked a bit anxious. And when you're batting and you've got that massive lead You know, over you, the scoreboard pressure. Well, yeah, it is tricky. But, you know, I'm taking nothing away from England at this stage. I thought they, you know, given the difficulties that they have had and that half of that attack coming out of the 100 and so on, we talked about their fitness, didn't we? Wondered what they were like. Well, I don't think there's any concerns there.

Well, they weren't really pushed though, were they? Because they didn't have to bowl that many overs.

That's the caveat, that they were not pushed very much. What I really liked about This, and I did say that to Joe Root and to Marcus actually, was just the pace in which they played. We've been so used over the last, well, 4 years to really frenetic cricket. We've talked about it a lot. For the first 18 months, it worked. It took people by surprise and they were on a real roll. But then that kind of degenerated really to a bit of recklessness and just bad decisions. And here, yes, they weren't pushed, they weren't pressed, and they didn't find themselves really under pressure at any stage.

I mean, physically as well, in terms of the number of overs they had to bowl.

Well, no, I'm talking about more— I'm talking more than just the way in which they played, just the mindset, the maturity of the way that they played. It was much more, I think, likely to bring success in Test cricket than we've seen in the last couple of years. And yep, okay, back to the point, they weren't necessarily challenged very much, but I just— I really liked what I, what I saw in terms of, in terms of that, in terms of decisions that were taken batting in the dark last night, all those sorts of things was done in a, in a calm, mature, and sort of disciplined sort of a way with some flexibility. And that's very encouraging.

What about Pakistan view of England then, Ramiz? I mean, you talked about the disappointment of Pakistan and, you know, they're weak in here anyway in batting, bowling, and fielding as well. What about perspective of England?

Well, England have got a team, uh, it's a, it's a solid team, and it— we knew that it's going to be a tough series for Pakistan irrespective of how England play because your own levels have dropped. And so England will be menacing. I mean, you know, come the 2nd and the 3rd Test match, I think they'll be hard nut to crack.

What about going forward for England though, or is this not It's not a big enough test to make that judgment.

Yeah, I mean, this is not big enough test actually. They've not been tested at all. In fact, they won by innings, but they just played, you know, percentage cricket to get over the line. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, there are teams that'll test England, uh, but the bowling looks to be pretty, uh, in, in good order. What about the spin? I'm not too sure, you know, whether they have the spin department really to challenge.

Well, they don't. They just don't, do they?

You see, so, so go to subcontinent, for example, in Sri Lanka, in India, even in Pakistan. So, so, uh, you know, that's the issue. If you want to become a world force, then you've got to have a balanced bowling attack.

What about Pakistan's team for the next Test match? What, what would you do if you were the selector in charge? What sort of 11 would you come up with? Who, who comes in, who goes out? Or do you just say, right, you got us into this mess, you get us out of it?

So obviously Babar Azam comes in. Um, I don't know how fit he is. He hasn't really practiced at all. Uh, he'll be definitely rusty. Then Ubaid Shah, who's Naseem Shah's younger brother, he's, he's around 138, 140 at times, so you probably include him. But that's about it. I mean, you can't play 2 spinners there, so it's got to be one spin plus, um, batting has got to come to grips as well.

I think batting has been I mean, one of the unknown factors, and Joe Root actually alluded to it in his interview with you, Jonathan, is the pitch at Lord's.

No one knows what that's going to be.

I mean, that could level things up. And we saw that Test match earlier in the summer, but we also saw the One Day International between India and England that was played on a belter, and England got masses, and India nearly got masses as well.

The thing is about pitches though, Simon, is that, you know, you can prepare a pitch in certain ways every time that you look to play on it. And it's very easy sometimes just to say to a pitcher, well, that pitch, you know, look at the data. Well, this ground always produces so many runs, or this pitch always does this. Well, it depends how it's prepared. And I think that probably they got the preparation wrong in that last Test match at Lord's. Got a lot of criticism, quite rightly so, for it. And they just got it wrong. It looked really rough at the start, unlike anything I've ever seen. at Lord's before. This will be a different strip. They're not gonna play on that one for this Test match, and it might play completely differently. And let's hope that it does.

Well, yeah, let's hope so, because I mean, it was a pretty ropey surface, wasn't it? The only thing I would say, and the Henley groundsman said it as well, is that, you know, it's been really weird actually preparing this surface because of all the dry weather. And it's so dry in London, so hot in London, probably hotter than it has been here as well.

It must have been the most challenging summer ever. To have been a cricket groundsman. But we'll have a better idea when we do see that service. I'll keep the same England team. I just want to see them going on winning games.

Yeah, that was actually my next question. What do England do in terms of change? I mean, the obvious thing is just to say unchanged, isn't it?

Well, they've got best part of a week off and they haven't been exercised particularly, the bowlers. So I'll just say, out you go and go and do it again. Let's just get some rhythm. You know, just, just get, just get some wins.

Alistair and Michael have popped up again. Uh, same 11 for you, Alistair, for Lord's? So what do you, what do you think about that? Would you look to experiment a little bit?

I'd go same 11. I think it's more important to win the next Test match at Lord's than it is to see someone else. If you want, if you want to go to— if they win the series, then an opportunity maybe for a couple of those bowlers to, to swap. But I think no. Joe Root taking over, them learning how Joe Root captains, and Joe Root learning how to captain them, I think is probably more important than swapping around. If there's a niggle, obviously, but I think no, same team for me.

And Michael?

Yeah, same team next week, win the series. Same ruthlessness in terms of performance and mindset. If you tune them up and you go to Edgbaston and one of the quicks needs a little bit of a breather, I said before, I wouldn't be against Trying an Ollie Robinson-style bowler with Ollie Robinson with a couple of quicks in the attack. But they've just got to continue with the ruthlessness. The Pakistan side are there for the taking. We can see that clearly. And you know, when you get the chance to win Test matches, take it. You know, it was Sri Lanka 2 or 3 years ago here that they went 2-0 up, went to the Oval, and almost that was the start of all of us going, oh, come on, you've got to have a better mentality than that. I don't think we'll see that. I mean, Joe's just mentioned on the television I asked him about, you know, any communication with Steven Fleming this week. Every single day, messaging, speaking. So Steven Fleming, even though he's not here, he's having a big say in terms of the way that this team is operating.

He's been watching from New Zealand, has he?

Absolutely. He's been talking to Joe every night, so he's completely in control of this team. Marcus Jusgothic has done a good job this week in terms of being around and being an interim. He's the perfect safe pair of hands, Marcus, but Steven Fleming has got a big hand on this team already, so there'll be a lot of sense involved in selection, a lot of sense in the way that they play, and he'll not then let them just, you know, relax and think that they've done their job. You know that it can go and do exactly the same again at Lord's on Thursday.

Yeah, and as a team that, you know, haven't won enough, you've got to keep winning, haven't you? If you get a chance to win, you win.

Well, winning is your currency as a team, as a captain, and you've got to enjoy it, you know. You've got to get on the podium with trophies, you know. Beating Pakistan, particularly this Pakistan team here in the UK, it's not a trophy that Is the one that you're after. But you know, in a few months' time in South Africa, to go down to South Africa and win, you've got to take confidence with you. And the only way that you can get confidence is by winning games of cricket. So I would think this is the perfect series for the team to win three-nil. That's not degrading or disrespecting Pakistan. It's exactly what I would expect. It's exactly what the public would expect. Go out and deliver it. Play in the same fashion. Probably one or two of the batters, as Joe's just mentioned again on the telly, there was a disappointment. He said in the dressing room last night because a couple hadn't gone on to get the 3 figures. Well, let's see what the pitch plays like at Lord's before we start saying no, because, you know, a 60 might be a good score on the pitch. We'll have to wait and see. But I think all the battlers will know that against this kind of attack, if you get to 50, 60, you should be going on to get 3 figures.

Final thoughts, Alistair?

Well, complacency would be my slight concern. That will be the only thing stopping England. I, I, but I think with Joe in particular and his consistency in his game, he won't allow that to sneak in. And if you're Pakistan, you think, right, we've had an absolute stinker here and we've got to find something there. And they will need a bit of luck at Lord's, whether it's winning that toss. And there is a bit more rain around, isn't there, next week, allegedly in the forecast? So get one of those horrible conditions and they bowl, and they bowl a lot better and they put this England side under some pressure early on. England just didn't allow Pakistan at all from ball one, obviously the perfect start ahead of them, and never let them out. Pakistan have to try and do that, that first half an hour at Lord's, otherwise they're in trouble.

Thank you, Alistair. Thank you, Michael. And you can see that interview with Joe Root that Michael was, uh, talking about on Today at the Test. That's on BBC Four at 7:00 Tonight, or you can catch up at your leisure on the BBC iPlayer. Now, the final few musings on this Test match come from Andy Zaltzman up in the Test match special box. What has caught your eye, Zaltz, over the last, uh, only 2 and a half days statistically?

Uh, yes, another short, uh, Test, the joint 13th shortest completed Test match in England. Um, but considerably longer than the, uh, the match against New Zealand earlier this summer, almost 10 overs longer, and that had 4 innings in it. So another of the— this trend of very short abbreviated Tests. We saw 2 of the shortest ever in Australia as well. That came down mostly to Pakistan's batting and England's bowling. Pakistan lasted 85 overs and 4 balls in their 2 innings combined, their 5th shortest match in terms of Uh, matches in which they've batted twice and been dismissed in, in both innings. So a disastrous match for Pakistan, um, and another away defeat. 9 of their last 10 away Tests they've now lost since December 2023. Um, they've lost, uh, 5 of the last 19 altogether in the last 3 years. It's their biggest loss since January 2021 when they got hammered by New Zealand by an even bigger margin than this, and their second biggest biggest loss in the last, last 15 years. So it's a prolonged decline for, for Pakistan. For Joe Root, just a second win in his last 19 Tests as captain and breaks a run of 10 unsuccessful matches as skipper. The 9 at the end of his first stint as captain, plus that match at the Oval early this summer when he stood in for Ben Stokes. So 3 draws and 7 defeats Defeats in his previous ten, but a fine win here. His first win as captain since he beat India on this ground in 2021. And yeah, an outstanding performance by England's bowlers. They had Pakistan naught for one in both innings. Only the seventh time in England's Test history they have had their opponents naught for one in both innings of a Test, or for the seventh time that Pakistan have suffered suffered that fate. Ollie Robinson, his best. And Josh Tong both have their best match figures, 8 wickets each. Ollie Robinson now has 65 wickets in his first 12 Tests at home. Only Ian Botham has ever taken more for England in his first 12 Tests in this country. And Josh Tong, who at one point at the— combining the end of his first innings and the start of his second innings, had taken 7 wickets in 22 balls, he now has, uh, 65 wickets in 13 Tests altogether at the start of his career, which is the most at that stage of an England player's career, also since Ian Botham and his extraordinary late '70s, um, pomp at the start of, of his career. So a superb performance by England. Pakistan only had one partnership over 40, uh, in, in the match, and it continues England's excellent record in first Tests of series. They've won 8 of their last 9 first Since the start of 2024, their problem has been in the remainder of series when they've won 6 out of 22 since then. So that's a statistic they will be looking to put right at Lord's. You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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