Australia embarrassed, Brook opens up and Hundred reflections

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We've got an hour of Five Live Cricket on the way. England's men have their three-match Test series against Pakistan beginning on Wednesday, so you'll hear from Harry Brook in the next hour after what's been an eventful year for him. The Hundreds managing director Vikram Banerjee will join us later on after victories for Trent Rockets women. And Manchester Super Giants men at Lord's yesterday. Michael Vaughan and Phil Tufnell are with us. And despite all of that going on over here in England, there really is only one place to start tonight. And that's— well, let's just put our feet up and bask in Australia losing at home to Bangladesh. Webster around the wicket and he cuts and that's going down towards the boundary.

That could be it. That will be it.

Bangladesh have won the game, and this is as big a win as Bangladesh have ever had, and probably one of the more embarrassing defeats that Australia have ever suffered in Test cricket. They came here with everyone saying, well, will it last 3 days? And here we are on the 4th day, and Bangladesh have beaten Australia. In their home patch by 9 wickets. Now, now, now, we'll come on to it from an Australian point of view very shortly. And as I say, revel in it. It's brilliant for the game, isn't it, Michael?

Yeah, it is. I mean, I've watched quite a lot of it. Um, I've got quite an interest in Australia having, uh, worked there for the last few years, but more so on the back of what we saw in the winter where we all felt that England had a glorious chance. And just a reminder that England played against the second string Australian side, and this was Australia at their best. They had everyone to pick from. Boland didn't make the 11, and all of a sudden Bangladesh arrived in Darwin on the back of being bowled out for just over 50 in a warm-up game, given no chance. Australia won the toss. There was a bit of a green tinge, and Pat Cummins says we'll have a bat very much the Australian way. And the technical side of the Australian batting was completely exposed. And I smile in a way because Many were saying to England over the course of the preparation and leading into the Ashes that it wasn't all about airspeed. It wasn't all about pace. Well, Bangladesh with a couple of nice seamers bowling around 80-odd miles an hour hit the top of off stump. Australia's techniques were flawed. And then with the bat in hand in the first innings, they batted for 138 overs with Tamim getting a magnificent 100. So a brilliant performance by Bangladesh. Their best test victory in their history by a country mile, and the likes of Jim Maxwell, Crash Craddock, the Aussie journalists are saying that this is Australia's worst ever test match defeat. So Australia have got a lot of questions to to ask themselves of of what they're going to do from here. But a brilliant achievement from the Bangladesh team.

Yeah, and and it is just before we pick apart Australia and Jeff Lemmon's going. Going to join us. That has to be the biggest thing to take out of this, Phil, is, is what, what this will hopefully do for Bangladesh Test cricket.

Well, well, I mean, it's just amazing, isn't it? I mean, as, as Mike was saying there, is this the biggest ever upset in Test history? I don't know whether it is. I think Bangladesh are about 4th or 5th in the world now, you know, so it's not the end of the world. But just going back to what you were saying there as well, it's almost the fact that That should have been us. That could have been us. That's what sort of like has brought it all back to the surface for me a little bit. As I say, we're taking nothing away from Bangladesh whatsoever. It was surprising.

But Phil, as Michael points out, we England, you know, we England didn't approach it like Bangladesh.

No, precisely correct. But I think that, you know, that there is a feeling then amongst, you know, like the, the English that, you know, the time was right for us to go over there and do something. And they had, they had the opportunity to, um, go and do something very, very special, Bangladesh, uh, and, and they pulled it off, you know. So fair play to them. But then, I mean, you don't get those opportunities too much in Test cricket, especially playing in, you know, in other people's conditions and what have you. And it's just a shame that we didn't take the chance that Bangladesh did. I'm sure there will be some questions, uh, fired at Australia, that is for sure, and perhaps a little bit of selection as well and what have you.

Yeah, I mean, chappers, it, it, it just tells me that the basics of the game work. So if you arrive and play the basics really well, so i.e., you try and hit the top of off stump, and if that's not working, you just bowl into channel and you try and bowl for a, a few dots and you try and frustrate a batting unit. That's what Bangladesh did. With the bat in hand, they saw off the new ball. They looked to bat for a long period of time, 138 overs they did so in that first innings, and they caught well. So the basics of the game actually work wherever you play around the world. I think we scratch our heads far too much about how to play in Australia. You know, I've seen teams win in Australia, and the teams that win in Australia, they just cover the basics better than the home side. And that's exactly what Bangladesh did this week.

Geoff, Geoff, Geoff, how are you?

Good evening.

Oh, well, what has been the Australian reaction to this result? Anger, embarrassment, praise for Bangladesh?

All of them?

I think all of them. I think everybody's rolled up into a big sort of ball of the combined parts of all of that. I've heard a lot of praise for Bangladesh. I think people— I think Australian cricket supporters generally appreciate an underdog and they appreciate someone who rocks up and gives it a go. And the fact that this wasn't a Test match that was won on the back of one mad innings by somebody that just happened to have a day out, the fact it was a consistent performance over 4 days, they didn't lose a session. You know, genuinely Bangladesh did not lose a session over, over 3 and a half days of cricket, which wouldn't have happened many times across their Test history. I think people respect that at the same time as being absolutely furious with the Australian team that they've managed to drop a game that you would You would never expect them to drop. I mean, not in a million years, particularly Asian sides coming to Australia. Sri Lanka have never won a Test match in Australia. They've been playing Test cricket for 20 years more than Bangladesh have. You know, Pakistan haven't won in Australia for 30-plus years. And Bangladesh rock up, they've been given the Darwin game, the, oh, you don't really count, you don't— you're not part of the main summer, you can go and play in the middle of winter in the Top End. And they show up and go, okay, well, if you think that we're that bad, We're just going to knock you over. It was an amazing result.

Are they— are the Australian public just furious with the team? Are they furious with how the team have been allowed to get to this stage? And that question comes off the back of Ricky Ponting, who said, look, I'm the last one who wants to make a change. It has to get to a bad point before I start saying you ought to leave somebody out. But there had been enough evidence to suggest they weren't going to lose anything by starting that regeneration.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a big part of it in that you've got an administration with this Australian team who are very much more stick than twist. They're very much more, we're gonna back the current group of players we've got to come good. And so, Marnus Labuschagne is the one under the microscope the most at the moment, who's had Pretty poor returns for a few years now. A couple of exceptions aside, they did drop him last year, but it was definitely meant to be a give him a kick up the butt sort of drop. It was like we'll drop you for a little while, go back to state cricket. He made a pile of runs quickly. They brought him back in as quickly as possible. If he's out of the team again this time, then it'll likely be for a much longer period. But there's frustration that Labuschagne's been allowed to keep occupying a spot for essentially three years without delivering at the sort of level that he did beforehand. And then a player like like Jake Weatherald, who had a pretty poor Ashes really all up. You end up averaging in the 20s. That's not a good return for anybody. And they made excuses as to why— they rationalised why it wasn't as bad as they thought. They gave him a new national contract. So I don't think they're going to drop him after one Test into a new national contract. But it was an interesting call to say, we're going to back a player for 12 months who's just played 5 Test matches without— with only one half-convincing score in it. So those 2 players are the main focus of attention from the Australian than public at the moment, now that Cam Green has, has got the, um, got that attention off him by at least making 100 in the second innings.

Michael?

Yeah, I, I actually think Australia have been papering over cracks for quite a while. I think Travis said, if you, you go back to the Ashes series, that, uh, injury to Usman Khawaja in Perth, uh, Travis going to the top of the order, he was the reason really that England really struggled. I mean, they didn't bat well enough, and if England have just batted with a little bit more sense, i.e., like Bangladesh have just done in Darwin, I think England would have won that series. And it was really down to one or two individuals. And, you know, I think Geoff will agree with me that Australia, over the course of the last 3 or 4 years, their batting unit has been very similar. They've been very reliant on a Travis Head score, a Steve Smith score, Alex Carey getting them out of a tricky position consistently. They haven't batted as a unit. You go back to the '90s, the early 2000s, where you just knew if Hayden didn't get you, Langer would. If Langer didn't get you, Ponting would. There was always kind of a batting unit batting as a team. I see Australia at the minute batting like a group of individuals. They don't seem to be able to create those partnerships like they, they used to in the past. Um, I'd be surprised if they don't make the change. I'd be surprised if, if they don't go to someone like Matt Renshaw, who's been around the Australian side for a while. Uh, he's been in and out the side, he's been back in the one-day team. Uh, someone like Nathan McSweeney, who's doing really well here in England playing for Northampton. He's a player that kind of got shoehorned in to open the batting against Jasprit Bumrah. And given that first over, Jasprit Bumrah bowling to right-handers, we know the record that he has. So, um, there's one or two players just out the Australian team that'll be looking to get their chance. Uh, younger players like Ollie Peake, probably not quite done enough. Um, you're looking at Cooper Connolly again, he's done really well in white-ball cricket. But you know, that top of the order— and, and this is where I look at the Ashes and think, oh, England missed a golden chance. But in a year's time here in the UK, the Australian side's not going to get any younger. And England will have a golden chance as long as England can start playing sensible cricket. If they can, they can do what they didn't do in Australia. But, uh, in terms of Australia, what they have to try and do from here, fundamentally, they've got to start batting as a unit because, uh, for a while now they've been batting as individuals.

Yeah. And was it right, Geoff, that I heard, uh, Mark Waugh saying that sort of like the batting unit looked like they were batting with a bit of fear? You know, they perhaps needed, you know, dare I say it, a bit of Bazball about them.

I don't think anybody needs to see a bit of that. I think we've seen a lifetime's worth.

Phil, that died a long time ago.

Well, the biggest bit of fear I had in the last few months was Ben Stokes saying he wants to coach the England team. I was like, please don't start this again. We've just done all this. Just give us a couple of years. Give us a couple of years to get a breath. But they were a hesitant lineup.

Yeah, no, exactly. In all seriousness, you don't usually say that about an Australian batting lineup, do you? You know.

But fear of what then, Geoff?

Look, it was interesting choosing to bat on day 1 when you start relatively early in the day in Darwin. It's a tropical environment. It's very different to anywhere else they play. And whether it was overnight dew, there's still moisture in the surface, whatever it was, there was more movement in that first couple of hours than anywhere. But it wasn't extravagant. None of this was impossible for a Test-class team to cope with. It just looked like they were a team that hadn't played in months and months. And for all that they talk about the preparation and they've been at training camps in Brisbane and all the rest of it, it's still not match play. And whether that was the key, I know that was talked about a lot with England in their lead-up, the lack of match play to that Ashes series in Australia as well. You can never quite pin down what's causation and what's correlation, but— There was very little confidence. It was tentative stuff. It was poking outside off stump with an angled bat. The number of players who chopped back onto their stumps, Cameron Green made the 100, but he should have been out. He chopped onto his leg stump and the bail didn't come off much earlier in his innings. So that mistake was made by so many players on a surface that was slow where that kind of dismissal comes into play so much more often. So they just looked like a team that didn't— Have their idea together about how they wanted to go about this game. And Bangladesh did. They got smashed up in the tour game. They got bowled out for 50 and they went, okay, well, that was embarrassing, but how do we want to play? What's our approach? And they came out and played with clarity. And I didn't see a lot of clarity from the Australians except possibly Green in the second innings. And even Smith, who made a couple of scores, looked odd. He was, he was scratchy and erratic and playing about 7 different kind of games in the one innings.

Yeah, and Jeff, sorry, just quickly then, and then how comes the boys with the ball didn't drag them out of a hole then?

Yeah.

Which they usually do.

Well, maybe 'cause Nathan Lyon hasn't played for about 40 years and he looks flat. His trajectory was flat. He didn't have the energy through the crease. You know, he's approaching 40 years of age and Anderson might've been able to do it, but not everybody can be a Test bowler at that age. But he's had such a long layoff that he had to come back. Cummins looked flat to me. He also hasn't played for so long, played one Test during the Ashes. And you know, has barely played for almost a year now. So in terms of those two, so often it's Cummins who's the partnership breaker when things aren't going well. He's the one who comes on and makes the difference when a pair is well set. And the key thing for Bangladesh is they had partnerships almost all the way down. They lost a couple of wickets quickly in the middle, but even through the tail end, which normally Bangladesh six out all out is is pretty consistent, they had partnerships with every tail ender with Mahedi Hasan, who was able to inspire those bowlers to stick with him as well.

They batted fifty.

52 overs with the last— for the last 4 wickets. And you went— that's probably never happened in Bangladesh Test history. So they had that idea of partnerships, and Australia, I think, didn't have Cummins at his best as the partnership breaker. They had Starc and Hazlewood looking decent with the new ball, but there was nothing in it with the old ball. And the Bangladesh bowlers were able to be consistent enough to keep the scoring down and be something of a threat with the old ball, and the Australian bowlers were not.

Jeff, thank you very much for coming on. Appreciate it. See you soon. Jeff Lemon with us. We've got commentary of the second test, which I'm assuming we had already planned and not—we're not just relishing and reveling in this even more.

Quick, get it on. Yeah, no.

Turn our attentions to England then. Their three-match series against Pakistan starts on Wednesday with Marcus Traskovic in interim charge. Joe Root, the new permanent captain, new head coach of the Test team, Stephen Fleming, still waiting in the wings. We can hear from Harry Brook, white-ball captain, Test vice-captain, talking to Stephen Shemelt, the BBC's cricket correspondent. And in amongst everything else, he talks about how he deals with the criticism that comes from being a Test cricketer.

I feel like it's actually a little bit of a compliment that people are giving me scrutiny and have their opinion about my game because It means that people care and I've almost earned that scrutiny. I know it's not a nice thing to see people slagging you off, but it means that people care and means that people think that I can put in a better performance than I have done that day. And I remember as a kid going to watch Baz at Headingley play for— I can't remember, I think it was Warwickshire or someone— and Matthew Fisher got him out in the first over and I was absolutely devastated. I'd only gone to watch him And after he got out, I was like, Dad, can we just go home? So I can kind of understand it as a fan of cricket. And look, I'm just trying to be as good a player as I possibly can be for the side and try and win as many games as I possibly can to make the England cricket team the best team in the world.

Do you get why, because of how talented you are and the amount of runs that you score and your record and all those things, that maybe you draw more frustration from supporters when you get out playing a Shocking shot in your words.

Oh, if supporters get frustrated, then imagine how frustrated I get.

Really?

Yeah, of course. It's a frustrating game, isn't it? And one day you could be blitzing it everywhere, be 30 off 10 balls, and then just get out. And it's annoying. But that comes back to what I'm trying to say. I want to try and figure out that in-game, the little nuances that make a massive difference in giving you the opportunity of scoring them runs on that day. Yeah, I've just got to do that slightly better.

We've spoken before and I've said to you, do you think there's, I don't know, a perception around you from fans or from the media that's unfair? And you said to me, do you know what, I've got absolutely no idea. I don't know how I'm perceived by people. One thing I always think about is you're very authentic. You'll say what you think and you'll do what you want to do and you stay very true to yourself. And that might be doing a handstand when you walk up. Is that how you feel, that, you know, you're still playing the game for fun and you're being true to yourself and you're being authentic? To yourself, and if people don't like that, so be it.

I would say that I'm an extremely honest person. I'm honest with myself, I'm honest with my game, and yeah, I just, I love playing cricket. I love playing, I love walking out there hearing the Barmy Army singing Jerusalem as we're about to bowl the first ball, and, or the crowd chanting your name when you've, when you've hit a 4 or you've got 50 or 100. It's just Little things like that, when the atmosphere is amazing, you feel like you're on top of the game. There's all sorts of little bits of playing for England and just playing professional cricket in general that are just amazing.

Can honesty get you into trouble though? One time, I think when you'd first started being the One Day captain, or you were standing in for Jos, I think there was a comment where you got asked about batters getting caught on the boundary and you said, who cares? And was you being honest? Can it get you into trouble?

Yeah, I think so, but a lot of people say honesty is the best policy, so yeah, I probably have got in trouble a couple of times being a little bit too honest. That example, yeah, I was trying to— for me as captain that series, I was trying to bring a fearless nature to our batting attack, our batting order, and giving them a license to go out there and try and play in whatever manner they felt like they wanted to, to try and put us in a position to win the game. So that's where I was trying to go with that comment, for example. And that was all I was saying there, was to try and give our batters freedom and make them go out there to be able to perform at their best ability.

What about the off-field stuff? I know you and I have spoken about Wellington before, and, you know, this is not the time to get deep into that because we've had that conversation. But, you know, months on, what was the impact of that on you and how did you deal with that? Because For other people, they might have been able to go away and think about it and not be in the public eye, but straight away you were captain of England in Sri Lanka going into a T20 World Cup, speaking to the media over and over again. Now we're months on, how has it affected you, if at all? But, you know, you're only human and these things can leave a, you know, a long impression on people.

Yeah, it was a tough period, especially when I was at home getting ready for the media before we went out to Sri Lanka.

Is that in the gap between Australia and Sri Lanka?

But yeah, that was, that was a tough period. That was probably the hardest period. But I actually feel like the character that I've shown throughout that period to go out there and still perform and lead the side fairly well, to go out to Sri Lanka and win that one-day series, which hadn't been done for 4 years in Sri Lanka by any side. I was quite proud of myself in that regard, and I was very proud of the side in that regard. Looking at it now, I feel like it's shaped me as a player, as a person, knowing how big a responsibility it is to be the white ball captain, especially in England with such a high percentage of people enjoying and watching cricket and keeping a close eye on it. So I think it's— I don't want to say it's helped me, but it's made me realize how big it is to be England captain and It's not just the leadership on the field, it makes a massive difference off the field if you can lead well and lead with responsibility as well.

You talk about character. Did you know you had that in you to respond to—

I think I've always been a person to back myself and have the belief, and I think any top-class athlete in the world has that ability to back yourself even when everything's going bad, to be honest.

I think you just have to have that belief to be able to get where you want to Do you think there is a parallel universe where if some of those things hadn't happened, you would be sitting here as Test captain?

I don't know. I honestly don't know. I don't really look at it like that. I think the decision to make Rooty captain is the right one. I'm actually really excited to see what he can do. I think he's definitely the right man to take over that job. He's got a hell of a lot of experience. experience in that department, to have captained the side— I don't know the numbers, but nearly 70 times, most ever Test victories as captain— and the wealth of experience that he's had throughout his captaincy reigns already, and watching the way that Stokesy and Baz went about it the last 4 years, I think he's definitely the right man for the job. And, and I'm really looking forward to working alongside him and being along his side.

You were really honest about how honoured you would have been if you had got the call, and just now you've spoken about What happened over the winter made you realize what a big deal it is to be an England captain and a leader. There's a good chance that one day you will become Test captain. So again, is that in the back of your mind? And all these experiences that you've gone through, you know, that's a good thing to do and that's a not so good thing to do.

Yeah, and they're little things that you do learn throughout your career. Obviously it was on quite a high scale. But yeah, having that responsibility now has made a massive difference for me and my leadership. I think there is a potential that I could be captain, but at this moment in time, all I'm focusing on is trying to win a few games of cricket. And I will be 1,000% behind Rooty throughout this series and moving forward. And I'm really looking forward to what this Test side can do.

So that kid in that piece, right? who spoke about, you know, when he could first talk, he just wanted to be a cricketer and going to Burleigh and Sedbergh School and Yorkshire and England and all those things and everything that's happened in between and even some of the bad stuff like Wellington. Is it still the dream?

Definitely, yeah. Well, what's not to be happy about? I'm an extremely upbeat person. I'm always happy even when things are bad. I just think there's no point dwelling on things. You've got to be happy and that's That's been throughout my family growing up as well. My mum's an extremely happy person, my dad's an extremely happy person, and I just think life's too short to not be happy. And I'm in a very privileged position to be able to say that I'm doing something that I extremely love as a job, and I refuse to call it a job, but I'm doing something that I extremely love for work, which is just a dream come true. And every time I step over that white line, whether it be for England, uh, sunrises in, in the Hundred or, or Yorkshire, it's, it's always a phenomenal feeling to be able to go out there and, and say that this is, this is my life.

Great interview with Stefan Schemmel. And if you want to hear Harry Brook in full, the whole thing is available on the TMS, uh, podcast feed on BBC Sounds. When you listen to that, Michael, Where do you want to begin? Because I could take it in all sorts of different directions, but I'm, I'm more interested about where you would go having listened to that, having been in very similar situations to him.

Yeah, I absolutely adore Harry Brook. Um, I wouldn't choose anyone to bat at 5 across the world in any of my teams than Harry Brook. I, I just think he's, he's a gift that we have here in English cricket. My frustration is that he's yet to win a major trophy. You know, he's not had an Ashes in his hand. You know, I know he's not the skipper of the Test team, but as a player, he's not won an Ashes. Last year against India, you go back to the Oval, he was strolling that Test match, played an incredible innings in the second innings, chasing down over 300, and then made a mistake and England didn't quite get over the line. So the frustration with me as an ex-player is the talent that he has. And I don't want to waver from that. I don't want him to suddenly start playing in any other way other than every now and again he's got to read the situation just that little bit better. You go over to Trent Bridge that 4th afternoon, the Ben Stokes retirement day, and that innings that he played that evening was— I don't ever want to see that kind of innings from Harry Brook again in Test match cricket. In actual fact, I don't want to see him play like that in white-ball cricket because he's got too much. He has to realize, and I love the fact that he was saying, I want to win things, you know, I'm a player that wants to win. And he has to understand how good he is because he really can win Test matches for England. I wouldn't say he can win it on his own because you need a group of bowlers to get 20 wickets, but he's got that much ability and that much game, and he'll put so much fear in all the bowlers around the world that he can win games for England pretty much on his own with the bat in hand. And he has to understand that. And if he wants to win the Ashes in a year's time, and be a part of a group that's on that podium at the Oval. It's a great feeling. You know, he can do it. He really can play innings that can transcend England from being a very good team to watch and a very enjoyable team to watch to a team that can win major series against the better teams. And that's the one thing that this side hasn't done over the course of the last 4 years. They've beaten some good sides, but they haven't beaten India and they haven't beaten Australia. And whether people like it or not, That's pretty much what you get judged on by them. We've got nowhere near a World Test Championship final, you know, and that's something that I think this team has to have an eye on, that the World Test Match Championship final is played in our backyard. You know, England making it to a World Test Championship final will be huge for the team, huge for the game. And these are the kind of things that I hope the team under Joe Root, Steven Fleming are going to be talking about. And at the top of that, I know Joe Root is a wonderful player. He's England's finest. But, you know, I think you're gonna probably make a strong argument in a few years' time. Joe Root, I think, will always be England's finest. But you could argue that Harry Brook could become England's finest to watch because he's going to play innings that we've never ever seen. He's already played some innings that I've never seen an England player play. Kevin Pietersen, probably close. He played a couple, one in '05 at the Oval and one in Mumbai. He played an innings which I'd never seen before. But I've seen some innings from Harry Brook already, and he's only a young kid, that is remarkable. So we're going to see lots more of that in the future. But it's just that moment when the game gets hot and he can get the team over the line. I just want him to understand that he's got to get the team over the line, not just play a certain way because it's flamboyant and it's great to watch. Get the team over the line. And that's how highly I rate him. I have him right up there across all the formats. With the best players in the world. And I think he realizes that. He's clearly got the confidence, and it's the right decision for him not to be the captain of the Test team. Just let him do the white ball, take the team to the World Cup next year, stand next to Joe Root for however long it is. And I'm sure in time he will become the England Test match captain.

I think that was the best interview I've heard Harry Brook give, actually. You know what I mean? It seemed a little bit more kind of considered. And, you know, it's just not, well, I'm this happy chappy. As I agree with everything Mike there about, you know, what a special player, one of the best in the world and all of that. But he said a couple of things there, didn't he? He said he's still figuring it out, you know, and I think he's now realized. And the other thing he said, you know what I mean, he said, I just want to give people the freedom. Now sometimes, you know, I don't want to take that away from him, you know, and away from this sort of like— I'm going to say it again— Bazball, kind of like that freedom. But that sometimes doesn't necessarily get the best out of you. You know, you've got to have a little bit of ticker in there. You've got to have a little bit of technique in there. You've got to have everything in there. You know, if you just can't go out there and say, I'm as free as a bird, that is going to make me the best player I can be. It's a combination of everything. And that takes some time to figuring out. He's still such a young—

He's 27, which in which, I mean, is young anyhow.

Well, I'm getting there now.

No, but I mean, look, that gives him so much time to develop within, with, within the sport, doesn't it?

Yeah, but it's—

yeah, yeah, it's still figuring it out. It's still figuring it out.

Yeah, the, the great players across all sports, um, you know, you go Messi, you go Ronaldo, you go real great sports people, they get their teams to, to major trophies. And I, I honestly put Harry Brook, uh, I'm not saying he's in Messi's category, Ronaldo's category, but I have him right up there with the ability in the game that should be able to take England to major trophies. He's that good. If they can get a group of players around him, and they have a huge amount of talent, the England side. And that's been, you know, the frustration for many of us is that, you know, you go across English cricket for 30, 40 years, um, this England group have got so much talent. They really have. But talent's only one thing, you know, the external talent that we see.

Yeah.

is just the one thing. It's the internal talent that's the most important. That's the way you think. It's going against the grain every now and again. It's doing things that you necessarily don't want to do on a given session or a given day just to get your team across that line. And that's what this England side has got to be a little bit better at doing over the course of the next few years too. You look at who England have got to play, you know, they've got to go to South Africa in the winter. It's not going to be easy. They've got to go to Bangladesh for a couple of Test matches. That's not going to be easy. A completely different challenge. And then obviously the Ashes next time, then they go to India away. So the next 18 months for the Test side, it's not an easy challenge that this team has got. But the only way that they can get over that is by understanding the conditions and understanding the type of play that you require on a given day. And Harry Brook's the kind of character that I wouldn't want to take that aggression away from him, you know, because you'd want him to be your free spirit.

Yeah.

But that free spirit can't just be allowed to be that free spirit all the time. When that moment comes to get England over the line, He just has to do whatever he can to make sure he's out there when the crunch moments come.

What about that free spirit in the terms of how you carry yourself when maybe things aren't going well or you get out to a poor shot? Because there is something incredibly positive about, about someone like Brook being upbeat, cheerful, not, not letting, not letting things get to him. To have that, to have that personality, I think, is something that's It must be a great gift for a sportsman or woman, but then sometimes from a fan's point of view, Phil, Yeah. that is then seen as not care— I mean, it couldn't be further from the truth with these people, but as not, as not caring, as, oh, you don't look unhappy enough that you've got out that way, you're not brooding in a certain way, you don't look angry at yourself. So how do you balance that?

Well, how you balance it first, I reckon, is— well, I know actually from my personal experience is that you'd be all right with yourself. Listen, so long as, you know, I mean, Mike just mentioned it, you know, that shot they get against New Zealand, you know, you know, some people come in and throw the bat, some people sit down, some people say, oh listen, not to worry, that's just the way I play.

Exactly. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that— so what you've got to do though, and what fans. Fans don't mind that. I always found it very, very difficult, you know what I mean? That, you know, once you've lost a Test, of course you're going to be upset and everything, but then, you know, the next day you're going to go home, you're going to be pictured over the park with your kids, sort of like pushing them on the swing with a great big smile on your face. You can't lock yourself away and be glum and sort of— there's not a time limit that you've got to be unhappy for to make the fans happy and what have you. What the fans want is to see that Um, you, you are learning. You are learning from that, you know what I mean? And sometimes, you know, when the guys come in and they just sort of like throw the bat down and just sort of go, oh well, not to worry, it's not the end of the world— well, it, it should be the end of the world. It's not the end of the world because it's a game of sport and what have you, but you must then learn from what you've just done. You mustn't then just blank out that knock or blank out that bowling performance or football match and just go to yourself, well, you know, That's just me, and I'm going to be happy. You've got to take all of that, and that's maturing. That's what experience is.

You know, you've got to learn. Phil, the England cricket fans are very, very fair. They get behind the England team pretty much 90% of the time. When they get upset, it's when they see stupid cricket. Yeah. You know, and I'll go back to the Oval that last morning. England needed 30 with 5 wickets in the tank to beat India to win that series 3-1. They got it down to 22. And then they played stupid cricket. So they ended up losing that game. They drew the series. You go to Perth that second afternoon. They played stupid cricket. They lost that Test match. You know, the fourth afternoon against New Zealand at Trent Bridge. That was just stupid cricket.

Yeah.

And that's the only time the England cricket fan will get annoyed with the team. If you get outplayed or you're trying to do the right thing, and sometimes the right thing is being brave and being aggressive. That's just the team that has to make that judgment. But what the England side has done a little bit over the last couple of years, which has annoyed the England fan, they've played stupid cricket. And that's what they've got to get a little bit better at. At times, they've got to just play within themselves, play smart, and get through that moment. If they can do that, I think they're going to be a very threatening team. They've got a decent amount of pace in the attack. And they've got a lot of skill in that batting lineup. And if they continue to kind of I think Joe Root's almost like the perfect foil as a captain because I loved his interview just a few days ago. And, you know, he didn't want a name, he didn't want a Bazball name, he just wanted to play the right cricket. And that's what he says he's going to try and do, play the right cricket for that moment that the Test match brings on to you.

Will Fleming make them smarter? I mean, you spoke to Brendan McCullum at The Hundred yesterday, didn't you, Michael? Who described Fleming as like me but better, which was, I mean, very, very self-deprecating. Or of him? Will he make them smarter?

Well, I, I can only go on of what I, I know of Stephen Fleming when I played against him, and he was a very smart captain. He, he, he's been known for 17 years in India, uh, working with the Chennai Super Kings, of being a fantastic man-manager. Um, you look at the, the squad that's been selected for the first Test against Pakistan, there's a bit of sense in the selection. They've gone for a little bit more experience and I think that's what Stephen Fleming will bring. He'll bring a little bit more sense in terms of the way that he wants his team to play. He won't be scared of his team playing aggressive at the right time. You go back to when his team, when he was captain of New Zealand, they drew nil-nil in the early 2000s against Australia away and they just nullified Australia. They went with a tactic. They pretty much left every one of Glenn McGrath's opening bursts, just kept on leaving him. Letting him go over the off stump. I'm not saying that England will go completely that way, but I think under Fleming they'll certainly bring a little bit more sense. Um, he'll manage the group very, very well. He's renowned for that. I don't think it'll all be about airspeed and pace, which is pretty much what it's been about. I think there'll be a bit more in terms of skill. The Chennai Super Kings over the years have had, uh, skillful bowlers, not just pace. New Zealand back in the day, Phil, you played against them. I mean, there was Chris Harris bowling about 30 miles an hour with the keeper stood up. So I do think he'll bring a little bit more sense and skill. But fundamentally, it's very, very difficult to get your Test match team playing to a real high standard when you haven't got a world-class all-rounder and you don't have a world-class spinner. That's going to be his challenge.

I know you want to come in, Phil, but honestly, that, that just reminded me when Michael talked about you playing against New Zealand, that That Sky Cricket thing with you, with you, Nasser, and Michael Atherton watching the final test at the Oval is one of the funniest 40— it's absolutely sensational television. I couldn't stop, lad, tears rolling down my face. It was brilliant.

That was good fun.

I mean, I played under Flem at Middlesex. He was my captain, right? And what he will bring is a little bit of roughness. Refinement, if you know what I'm trying to say there. He said he was a refined kind of cricketer. He won't— and then as Michael said there, it won't just be all about airspeed and what have you. It will be sometimes perhaps like a Cook bowling if he's right for the job, you know what I mean? It'll be— just look at those New Zealand sides of the past and also the way they play their cricket as well. Lots of sort of like, not necessarily all-rounders and bits and pieces, but but, you know, good solid citizens in the side. And also what he was when he was captain, he didn't mess about. He was quite tough, you know. He gives this sort of like, oh, you know, sorry, a Kiwi sort of like a little bit light-baz and what have you. But when the nitty-gritty came down to it and there wasn't, you know, and there was a bit of messing about or something wasn't quite right, he could put his fat foot down. And he— what he did do was get the instant respect. Of the team, you know when when there was a little bit of shenanigans going on or you know on the field or something or a bit of a soul kid when they went no not having that and he cut it out straight well so I think it might have been a little bit lucky to get him but I think he'll be he'll be a great pick I think the one the one thing that I I'm slightly frustrated is that he's not going to be here for the Pakistan series you know I know that was part of the remit and he couldn't make it but.

for just to have it, even if it was just for one game, just to be here and see the team, see the surroundings of the grounds that obviously next year, um, we'll be playing at Edgbaston in the Ashes laws, just to get the feel of, of the facilities and also just to introduce yourselves to the team. Um, you know, I'd have loved him to have been here for the Pakistan series. Um, but if you said to me you wouldn't have got Fleming if, if he had to be here and he'd have said, no, I can't be here, um, I would accept that that's fine for him to miss this series because He's clearly an outstanding coach, and I have a feeling they probably went for Andy Flower. Once Andy Flower pretty much ruled himself out, I think England have got the next best in terms of Fleming, particularly the partnership that he'll create with Baz McCullum.

We're very quick to pile on when things aren't going right. Do you also— I'd be interested, Michael, really, if you were captaining this team now in this situation, whether you'd You'd expect an element of understanding here in the sense of, you've already mentioned it, you know, the balance of the team is going to be very difficult to get right without Ben Stokes. It immediately creates issues for however you put this team together now. And particularly for this first Test, and it's nothing new to say this, but at least 3 likely of the starting 11 Were in the final at Lord's last night in the Hundred in Duckett and Atkinson and Tongue. So it is not an easy situation.

No, it isn't. And on the back of Pakistan playing 2 Tests in the West Indies and a 3-day game against a professional cricket association team. So Pakistan are well prepared. England will just have to kind of just hope that they find their Red Bull form straight away. Um, you know, I look at the team and I look at the talent, chappers. I look at Ben Duckett at the top of the order, a wonderful opening batter. You know, you've got Joe Root, England's finest, Harry Brook, Jordan Cox is a great talent, Emilio Gay's just starting out, and then you've got Dan Lawrence coming back in who's been in fantastic form for Surrey. Jamie Smith's had a rough 9 months, but we've seen in the past how talented he is. And then you've got Atkinson Tong, Joffre Archer, uh, Brydon Carson, that squad, Ollie Robinson. Look, let's not give them an excuse, chaps. There's plenty of talent there. There really is a good group of England players that should, should be able to beat Pakistan. But I will give them a warning sign that Pakistan are just trying to find a little bit of something. That second test performance against the West Indies was excellent. They've got a group of players that look well drilled. Aki Javed is the new coach, and we know with Pakistan, if yes, you can get Days where they, they look hopeless, but they also give us days where you go, they can look like the best teams in the world from nowhere. So that's going to be the challenge for the England side over the course, particularly this week, because they're ready for red-ball cricket. And England, uh, I'll just kind of hope that they find their footing on Wednesday morning. But, uh, it should be a series that, you know, without a Ben Stokes, without a world-class spinner, they should have enough to be able to beat Pakistan.

Uh, let's talk the Hundred. Then we're going to talk to the managing director of the Hundred, Vikram Banerjee, on Five Live Cricket. Before I bring Vikram in, how has the Hundred been for you, Phil?

How has it felt? I enjoyed yesterday.

Was it yesterday? Yes, it was yesterday. Yes, it was. Sorry.

I've had a long 2 or 3 days, mate. Obviously, the women's final didn't quite spark into life, but I enjoyed the whole day. It was great entertainment. Um, so for me, I think that the pitches might have had something to do with that not quite being the tight and close games that I was after. Um, you know, all the time, obviously you're going to get a couple of ones where you're bowled out for 100 and the other team comes flying through. But I think over the, uh, the, the course of the 3, 3 and a half weeks or whatever it is, um, yeah, it's enjoyable. It's entertainment. It's entertainment. I might not necessarily in a couple of years' time remember who won the Hundred at Lord's 2026. But that's not necessarily, I think, why I was there. I was in there for a good day out. I think the men's game has got— I think the men's game is better.

Phil, you said 2 years. Do you remember who won it now?

Yes, I do. Thank you very much.

It was yesterday.

But what I will say is that the men's game— I mean, the, the guys are here now I mean, there is some serious cricket going on in the men's game at the moment.

And Vikram, thank you very much for joining us. The standard of cricket on the men's and women's side has probably gone up a notch this year, would you say, due to the— due to— well, certainly on the men's side, even more overseas talent. Is that the biggest positive?

Yeah. Evening, everyone. I think the talent on display at the moment in The Hundred this year has been phenomenal. We've had players, yep, the 4th overseas. We've also had all the England players available who are doing really well at white ball cricket at the moment. So the combination of that, players enjoying themselves, giving it everything, we've had some great games, some great moments of talent. We saw it yesterday with Seifert smashing it everywhere. We've seen it throughout this tournament from a lot of teams. So the quality, I would say, across men's and women's, but especially the men's, really has taken a step up this year, which is, which is great to see.

What is the thing that you think you need to work on most going into the next couple of years?

There's a number of things. I think we've had a brilliant year. It's been a brilliant year for The Hundred, especially given all that's gone on. But across all the different factors, you never want to sit on your laurels. You always want to improve. So yes, the quality has been brilliant, but can you go again? What's the thing that will improve that even more across men's and women's? What's the next thing that can drive women's cricket further, even further forwards? What's an even better way to create fan engagement and more and more families and children falling in love with our sport through The Hundred? What's the way to boost attendances and people following and watching online on their iPads or phones or sitting in the stadium? How can you do that even better? So across all of it, we want to keep improving, but it's a really good foundation that we've set this year.

Do you want this to be Going forward, do you want this to be a form of entertainment that people can a little bit how Phil said? You know, go out, have a great day, enjoy it, go home. Or do you want these eight teams to be properly ingrained in their cities and their communities? Because one of the I suppose one of the issues with franchise cricket, and particularly with the Hundred at the moment, because this season was reset with. some new owners and new kit colours and new players, it feels like people are just passing through. So how do you make people, for example, at Manchester— I don't know, in Manchester, go, right, for the next 3 years we are wanting to go to Old Trafford because we know we're going to see Seifert, Tong, Baker, Atkinson?

It might sound a bit greedy, But why can't you have both? Why can't we have the fandom and that tribalism and people really being fans of Manchester? But at the same time, it's a great day out for all the, you know, the people dressed in orange yesterday coming to see their team, the Sunrisers Leeds, play. They didn't play very well. They didn't perform in that women's final, which is a shame. But I would hope they went away having a great day out. And you can do both of that. You can have fandom. And make sure the day is great for families, and that's what we're trying to do. The fandom thing will take time; it doesn't happen overnight. We know that, but a lot of the teams are doing some really good stuff. You go back to yesterday and the amount of shirts that were there, that were worn, that were orange, that were yellow, that were the red and blue of Manchester—that's a good start. We've now got players and those players that you named across the men and women that are locked in for at least three years. So Seifert becomes known as a Manchester Super Giants player, as does Joss Butler. Phoebe Litchfield gets known as a Sunrisers Leeds player and keeps coming back. You can start to build some heroes with that. And we know that kids these days, yes, follow teams, but they also follow their heroes. And so we can build on that now over the next couple of years as well.

Michael? Yeah, I mean, I think what's—

I think Richard Gould, the CEO of the ECB, mentioned it the other day. I think people, it's like If you praise the Hundred, you get criticized. Oh, you're working it, that's why you praise it. I, I think people get a little bit lost that the reason why we need a prominent franchise league in the UK is if we don't have it, our players will go and play elsewhere. They'll go and play in the Major League Cricket, which is coming up the radar. They'll go and play in the Caribbean Premier League. And it's so important. It's not necessarily about the super superstars because they get gigs everywhere. It's about keeping our county players playing here in the UK. And by playing here in The Hundred, you know, they'll go back and play for Somerset, they'll go back and play for Notts, they'll go back and play for Hampshire after being a part of The Hundred. And that's really important because if we don't have a league that pays our players the amount of money that they could get elsewhere, we're going to lose them. So I think over the last 4 weeks, I've been obviously privileged to go and watch cricket. I've been to the Metro Bank, which has been a revelation this year because what's happened with an extra overseas player, the standard of the Metro Bank's gone up.

Yeah.

So the Metro Bank crowd— we've had great weather, but the standard of the Metro Bank over the last 4 weeks has been outstanding because there's been 1 or 2 players that probably thought they were going to get in The Hundred, didn't get in because there was an extra overseas. So the standard of that tournament has just gone up a ladder. And that's what cricket and sport's all about, is always trying to push the levels. And I think The Hundred, particularly the men this year, the standard of cricket has been outstanding. And then you go to the Metro Bank and you look at the standard of the Metro Bank, you go, yeah, it's gone up from last year. Now, if that goes up next year again and the Hundred goes up again, you start to see a little bit more growth in terms of the development of the players. So I just think it's very important for the fans to understand that if we don't have the Hundred and we can't pay our players the amount of money that they're getting, they'll get on a plane and we won't see them. And the county game will lose some real talent, which would be a great shame. And that's why the Hundred is very important.

Vikram, do you wish that you'd been able to keep control of ticket pricing for this year's event?

No, I think part of that's part of what you're looking to do when you bring in some of the very best in the world, whether it's from America or India, from around the world, to come in and add their nuance and their nous. We're working with them, and part of what they have if you like, bought as part of that is from a commercial sense is ticket revenue as well as their shirt sponsors and their branding and all the rest of it. I think there's been a lot of lessons learned through this year and I can see it really flying next year. But there have also been some brilliant things that have happened. There have been, you know, for, you know, ticket sales really did pick up as the season went on. It's only a short window, but by the end we saw numerous full houses with flags waving everywhere, with coloured shirts and all the rest of it going on. So again, I think it's one of the things that we've, in this new model, it was a transition year. I think from next year now it will fly.

Have owners fed back to you what they've learned already from this year's tournament? And if so, can you give us a flavour of that?

Yeah, I mean, I've been at all the games myself. We've been in contact with the investors. Throughout the year. They've had a great year. Some of them, like Sanjeev Goenka and Jonathan Goldstein, have had better years and are very happy right now having won trophies. But all of us, we're all chatting at the moment now, and already kind of midway through the tournament, people were looking at, okay, well, here's what we can do better next year, here's what we can build on going forward. So things like the fan engagement, things like the lessons learned on ticketing, things like some of the digital stuff that we do again where You know, kids these days, yes, they watch on TV, but they're also following on their phones and looking online as well, and how we can build on that, how we can create heroes from some of these players now that they're locked in. All of these things and all these conversations are really doing. And as Michael talked about earlier, there is a real investment now of how The Hundred can support English cricket and how it can grow everything from, you know, how can we help these kids that are coming in watching Birmingham Phoenix play Trent Rockets to suddenly go and pick up a bat and ball for themselves, and they can be the next Jacob Bethell or Joe Root themselves in however many years' time.

Michael?

Yeah, I mean, I think we've also got to be fair to the game. It's not been a summer, you know, you look at what's happened with the England team, you know, with all the controversy. You go back to last summer, it was an Indian summer. You're always going to get more supporters when next year the Ashes, you know, the Hundred starts the day after the Ashes finished. I think the Ashes finished on August 2nd. I think The Hundred starts on August 3rd next year. Oh, that's right, yeah. So, you know, so you kind of look at that, you know, we know what happens with an Ashes summer. Everyone gets into cricket. So I think there'll be, there'll be more naturally, um, fans that'll come to The Hundred more next year. But I just think that there's an understanding of, uh, new owners, new teams, new kits, and the fans might just take a year or so to get used to. But I have no question next year with the Ashes series just happening before it, I think the ticket sales will go through the roof.

That will make a big difference, won't it, Vikram?

Yeah, as Michael said, we've actually done in many respects, we're a little bit down, but pretty well for those even years. So next year I think it will be, there'll be so many lessons that have learned, so much to build on now. I'm already really looking forward to next year because I do think we really will fly.

Thank you very much for coming on. Do you have a rest now?

I do indeed, for a few days before we go again.

Vikram Banerjee, thank you very much. Managing Director of The Hundred. Thanks to Phil and Michael. Test Match Special's coverage of England's Test series against Pakistan begins on Wednesday morning at 10:25 on Sport Central. Today, and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

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