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The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Hello, I'm Daniel Norcross. Welcome to the TMS podcast where we hear from England head coach Brendan McCullum. I'm alongside Stephen Finn and Stefan Shemelt as we discuss his take on this summer and what his thoughts are as the ashes down under gets ever closer. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

There was lots to be enthusiastic about throughout the summer. I thought the Indian Test series was unbelievable to be a part of. Both teams gave as good as they got. The cricket was fabulous. It was superbly supported, you know, all around England, but also around the world. And I thought, you know, it was. It was a series which showed that Test cricket means so much to a lot of people. So that was great to be a part of. It was unfortunate we didn't quite get across the line and we had our opportunities, but sometimes you don't always get what you want.

You played basically four fifths of that game with 10 men and came out losing by six runs. So, you know, at the end of the series, maybe it actually accurately reflected where the two teams were at because they both played magnificent cricket. For 25 days. You bowled more overs this summer than an England team has bowled in over 60 years. That in part, it seems to be because of these pitches that we're playing on become increasingly difficult to get sides out. And it also means you probably need quite a large coterie of fast bowlers if it's going to keep on being like this for the next few years.

Yeah, certainly not for a love of fielding that. We're staying out there, that's for sure. I'm sure Finney will test to that. But you know, I thought the pitches, unfortunately in some grounds they were probably a touch docile for what we were anticipating, but it was a hot summer and maybe the amount of cricket which has been played on these pitches makes it difficult to keep the life in them. However, we had our opportunities throughout that series and we came within one blow of winning against a very good Indian side who were very well resourced and very talented and well led of beating them 3 1. So it was close but no cigar. But from our point of view, there's lots of bankable positives to take from that series and it should have us cherry right for our next assignment. Obviously we've got a white ball series down in New Zealand which we'll try and obviously bring a little. We'll utilise some of the players who are going to be in that as a bit of preparation as well. Leading into the Ashes and then we've got the Lions heading down, advanced party heading down to Australia too, which we'll try and make sure we get plenty of loading into the, into the guys across that program before then we hit Perth and start getting ourselves ready for our warm up game against the Lions and then into, into that first test match.

So, and that is, that's the one warm up game you'll be playing, but it'll be against high quality opposition that you can guarantee is going to be high quality.

Yeah, that's right, you can guarantee it. And you know, I think if there was ever. A lot's made of preparation, I always find, and retrospectively a lot's made of preparation. But I think if we look at the Test side, since I came on board and I don't have the exact answers of what makes the perfect preparation, but I don't think anyone does. If it came down to that and someone said if you follow this script you will win 5 nil, then we'll do it. And it could come from anywhere, but no one has that. So you've got to have conviction in what you believe in. And since I'm pretty sure since we came in, we've won every away first test match of each series and we're following exactly the same preparation, doesn't guarantee a success, but it's how we go about things and it's going to be the same familiar program and approach leading into that first test. We've had Previous.

What have you learnt in the round? And I don't just mean about the Test side, because you've just come into being the whiteboard coach as well from the Champions Trophy, just before that and onwards. What do you reckon you've learned over this summer about the players in the wider England setup?

Look, I'll take it back a step. So when I first came into the job with England cricket, I knew that from sitting on the outside you could see that the talent within this country is significant, the love of the game within this country is significant, the resource is very good and the opportunity was immense. Where was the sticking points? Where was the areas which, if you're going to take over a role like this, if you're going to try and assist these guys to get to where they want to get to, what do you need to do to be able to make a point of difference and hopefully accelerate the process? And for me, it's about. And this might not necessarily go down that well in this room, but it's trying to block out some of the noise. The noise is great because the noise means that people care, right? I mean, we're walking into first press conference and I'm used to coming from New Zealand where there's like three journalists, right? And then you walk in there the first day of Lords and I think there's about 65 of you lot. And I was like, alright, this is a bit different, but what an opportunity. What an opportunity to knowing that the forum and the base, to be able to keep growing this game and to hopefully be able to succeed, what we want on this level is going to reach so many people. So for us, it's a matter of trying to manage that noise so that when you cross the line, it doesn't affect you, it doesn't. You don't carry anything with you. And that's in good days and bad. It's staying really level, it's staying really present, it's trying to create a camaraderie within the group and it's trying to free up these guys so that they're not paralysed by a fear of failure or a fascination on technique, which I think has been quite prevalent throughout English cricket. I'm a firm believer that technique allows you to enter a game, but it's how you play. It's the ability to play the game, to be able to play the man, to play the situation, to adapt your tactics in any given day, to be able to then get the outcome you want. It's not if you have your front Arm in the perfect position or if you have your elbow at the right spot. I think there's an over fascination with technique and all that does well is create noise and it creates warped thinking within our mind, which takes away our ability to make good decisions in the moment and focus on what needs to be done. So there's so many opportunities there and the other one was just being able to connect these guys and to understand that you have one opportunity in your life and where you're at in your career right now to make it as much fun and the most success you can out of the time that you have playing for your country, because it does pass you by. When it does, you'll wish that you enjoyed it a lot more than what you did if you don't stop to smell the roses and enjoy it right throughout. And also the relationships that you make throughout These guys, in 20 years time, they'll be mates, they'll be great mates. And you're trying to force that camaraderie together. The wins, the losses, the runs, the wickets, they all go in time. But it's the relationships that you've made and the people you've met and the friendships that you create which will last long after that. And that's, you know, that to me is significant of what you're trying to create in the environment that you are. And all of this is geared towards hopefully allowing the talent that sits with an English cricket to flourish rather than be stymied.

When you talk about blocking out the noise, do you think the people outside the England dressing room, be that either that was in the media or the people who turn up and watch or watch on the tv, do you think we get it? Do you think we understand what you're trying to do? Is that even possible for anyone who's not in the dressing room to fully understand what you guys are trying to do and trying to achieve and trying to play and all those things that you've just described?

Yeah, I think everyone gets it. I think ultimately everyone wants the England team to be successful, right? There's just different ways of being able to. There's different styles that you operate with which some people will like and some people won't like. And you can't, you can't worry about that. You can't adapt your game to what people are saying or what people are thinking about. You have to have a belief in what you want and you use the resources around you to be able to keep nipping and tucking, to keep improving and performing to the level that you want to. And ultimately, we know we're judged on our results, right? We live and we die by our results, and we get that. But having the hang up on that is not helpful. When you cross the line, it's the ability to remove that from the pitcher and be able to focus on how do I deal with the process, how do I play this ball, how do I transfer pressure, how do I absorb pressure, how do I manipulate this situation in a game that's going to give my team the best chance of success. And that's our coaching style. That's what we try and do. We're as determined and as competitive as anyone else out there, and we want success as much as anyone else. But you can want success and then success and our haste to want that success can stop our ability to actually get it. So from our point of view, we take it as a given we're competitive, we take it as a given that we want to win. We focus on the process of what we're trying to achieve and try and get these guys to be totally present, feel 10 foot tall and bulletproof when they walk out to play and to make decisions which will hopefully give us the greatest chance to succeed.

Vinnie, you played in a side that was very intense, that sort of 2010-2013 side. When you hear Brendan talking like this about the environment that's being fostered now, what does that make you feel?

Well, I think that's one of the frustrations, as a former player who knows what it feels like to play for England, is the frustration how that the mindset that these guys try and find can be misconstrued as not caring or flippant. And as someone who knows a number of the team, I know Brendan, and I know how much they want to win. When, you know, trying to free people up and make people feel 10 foot tall is a really difficult thing, with the noise and the pressure that people have inside their own minds. And I think that's what these guys do really well is they identify characters. And as we've been doing the report cards, we're there looking at numbers and, you know, his average and his runs per over and stuff like this, but it's characters that you want. Brendan, I presume when you're. When you're picking a team, when you're picking a squad, you're not just looking at cold, hard numbers. You're looking at people who want to puff their chest out and be that person in the moment. And when I look at this test team and I look forward to Australia What I was kind of trying to explain earlier is I see this is England's best opportunity in 15 years to win the Ashes away because of those characters that we have in the 15, 16, 17 man squad that is going.

To go down there. Well, look, you've just started this conversation about the Ashes, so I feel entitled to consider it. Now, we've been trying not to talk about the Ashes all summer because India is a massive, massive series. It's been completed. Now, notwithstanding, there's a white ball tour. How excited are you for us? You played in Australia before, you've gone up against Australians, you, you've won some, you've lost some, but you. You know how much this means to the players and to the public. How exciting is that as a prospect for you?

Yeah. I'm also married to Australians, so I know how competitive they are. Right. So look, that just 100% lies. It's time to get it on when it comes to the Ashes. Right? It's time to. To. Now, we've been very deliberate about making sure when it comes to Test cricket, that we focus on the job at hand and each series that we've come into. But for us now, our next series in Test cricket is the Ashes and bring it on. It's going to be great. The hype, the intensity, everything about it. Our boys are ready to embrace and to enjoy what comes with it. And that includes the pressure that comes with it, the scrutiny that comes with it.

What do you need to do to. It's a really facile question in one way. What do you need to do to win? But you've got so much experience of playing against them and you've seen teams succeed and fail. What sort of characterizes the teams that do succeed out there?

Well, I think it goes back to Finney's point. I think character is really important. If you look at what we've done over the last couple of years and how we've tried to set up this Test side, it's kind of geared towards the task which is at hand. We knew that to go to Australia, you need a cartel of fast bowlers and you need plenty of them. You need to be able to test them with good air speed, good bounce and obviously good skill. Nathan Lyons been an unbelievable spinner down there. I'm not saying Shah Bashir is Nathan Lyon, but he has attributes. He's tall, he gets bigger bounce, he's able to spin the ball. And if you look at his statistics, it may not jump off the page, but if you look at when he's had to bowl us to a Test win or the roles that he's played in unfavourable conditions. He's been very good. He's going to benefit from bowling on those pitches down there. And then if you look at our batting lineup, there's reasons why we persist with guys over a long period of time. Because a, there's complimentary skills throughout that top six, throughout our batting group, his complementary skills, his abilities to put oppositions under pressure. And there's now guys who are three or four years into their test careers, three or four years or three years into this environment's way of thinking are going to head down to Australia and try and take on what is a brilliant fast bowling and offspinner and Nathan Lyon group. So. And we've also got a counter attacking wick keeper batsman at 7. Adam Gilchrist was a great. He did pretty well in Australia. And then we've got a captain who's going to lead from the front and he's going to throw everything at it. He's going to bow 88 mile an hour and he's going to try and hit the ball out of the park or he's going to try and sort of be able to throttle back when the time needs before powering up again. So from our point of view, it guarantees us nothing. But we go there with our point plan that we had set up two years ago absolutely cherry ripe and will give us every opportunity.

When you come to pick the squad, whatever is in a week's time or whatever, it's going to be a pretty short meeting.

Yeah, yeah.

With what is there to decide if anything?

Probably just the second spinner. We probably just need to have a bit of communication around that, work out exactly what their role is, where we see where there may be an opportunity. It may only be in one Test match or if something was to happen to show a bashir, then what are our options? So we need to just finesse that a little bit. But outside of that, I'd say we're pretty certain of what we want.

Six seamers.

Maybe seven. Maybe seven.

But you've got the lions down there as well, haven't you? So is there an opportunity to have more people around?

Yeah, there is. And also be able to get some game time into some of them too. It is a long time this tour. There's a lot of breaks in between the Test matches as well, which we're gonna have to manage as best we can and make sure the guys are able to dip in and dip out. Of the intensity and the spotlight and still be able to enjoy themselves and come back and be ready to go. So there's lots to look forward to, there's lots of preparation, which is great. Gone into it, and now it's time to get it.

On the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

This is the story of the One as a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility, he knows keeping the line up and running is a top priority. That's why he chooses Grainger. Because when a drive belt gets damaged, Grainger makes it easy to find the exact specs for the replacement product he needs. And next day delivery helps ensure he'll have everything in place, place and running like clockwork. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

This is the story of the One as head of maintenance at a concert hall, he knows the show must always go on. That's why he works behind the scenes, ensuring every light is working, the H Vac is humming, and his facility shines with Granger's supplies and solutions for every challenge he faces. Plus 24. 7 customer support. His venue never misses a beat. Call quickgranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

This is the story of the One As a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility, he knows keeping the line up and running is a top priority. That's why he chooses Grainger. Because when a drive belt gets damaged, Grainger makes it easy to find the exact specs for the replacement product he needs. And next day delivery helps ensure he'll have everything in place and running like clockwork. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

The throttling up and throttling down is a phrase that I like first and foremost. But is that something that you focused on a bit more this summer than in previous summers, or is that. Is that unfair to say?

I think it's fair to say. I think if we look at where we were when we took over, what, one win in 17 Test matches and, you know, and there's various reasons for that, but the reason that I was employed was to try and reinvigorate some oomph into the setup, and one of those was to utilise the skill set of players that you have that we have here in England, and the ability to be able to put oppositions under pressure with the style they've got. We push that to the very nth degree. But you need to do that sometimes because you don't know where the line is until you push it. And occasionally we got it wrong. And that's just. That's life, right? You don't know the exact, exact point where that is. But we never talk about scoring fast. We never talk about sort of trying to hit sixes and things like that. We talk about absorbing pressure, transferring pressure, identifying the moments where you can transfer pressure and then being courageous enough to pull the trigger on that. And I think that was slightly misconstrued, that we just swing from the hip and sort of go and play a bit of golf and have a few beers. I mean, that's. There's so many people within English cricket who work unbelievably hard to give us every opportunity to be able to give these guys the best amount of resource and the best environment we possibly can to go out there and perform. And I feel that was a slight simplification of how we go about things. I think from our point of view, I think we've got a squad of players now who have been around this group for a long period of time and that slight adjustment of throttling down and powering up is quite powerful because you're not going to be able to be on the hammer the whole time. You're going to have to be times where the opposition, who are very good, are going to put you under the pump. You've got to work out is hanging in the right option or is trying to transfer in that moment the right option? Because everyone will say it's very nice to nick the ball down the chute on fifth stump or on a green seamer and go, great, you got a good ball, you're out for 10. But that's no better than trying to put pressure on the opposition and stop them bowling on off stump, which is the danger ball. At least then that way you're potentially getting them. If you put them under pressure, their margin for error becomes a lot less, a lot greater. Sorry. So that's the sort of mindset that we're trying to talk about and it's rip up the script of this fascination with technique and just start to. What we believe in is try and get these guys to be totally present in the moment, make good decisions and be brave enough to put pressure back on the opposition when you need to.

And do you feel. I mean, it's felt a bit like it up here. Somebody was it Michael Vaughan said basball with brains, he said a couple of times this year. And it has felt watching that there has been a slight shift in tempo sometimes and an adaptation in match situations. Have you been pleased by what you've seen over the course of this summer, especially when you're going 25 days against India?

Yeah, I've been really pleased with a lot of it. There's a couple of times where I thought we got too safe, to be honest. I thought we almost got the throttling down a little bit wrong. I thought we needed to be a touch braver in a couple of those situations. And there was a couple of times we may have maybe taken it too far in times which didn't need as much. So, you know, you're never going to get it right 100% of the time. You are going to make mistakes, but it's having the courage to make the mistake and then go back out there again and have another go at it. And that's the mentality that we try and operate within the dressing room and we hope that that's what gives us our greatest chance of success. Again, there is zero guarantees, but you've got to have belief in something. You gotta have conviction in your methods. And that's our coaching style and that's the way that we try and run this team. And if you look at. I mean, as we've made those adaptions, it's come because we've got the same group of batters that have had time to mature and nurture and understand and develop and grow. If you're flipping in and flipping out and constantly trying to find the answer from someone who might have got 100 last week in a county game, and you replace something you are literally guessing and you're not going to be able to achieve what you want over a long period of time. If you're flippant with your selections like that, which is why we have persisted with the group that we have for as long as we have. And I think that that level of maturity and that growth is starting to get there.

Sorry, come in a second step. But it just makes me think there was a lot of scrutiny on Jacob Bethel this summer and that he didn't play a lot of cricket, but he was around the group. Is that the sort of the thinking there? Because what you're describing is a kind of a batting unit that understands how it plays. Is part of the idea here that Jacob Bethel, because he could be used at any moment, could be for any reason, whether he's selected as someone else or whether there's an injury, needs to come into a unit that understands what it's called doing almost, you know, like a scrum pack almost.

Yeah. And you know, Kim, you're not going to always get it right. We felt that that was the right thing to do at the time and hoped that the environment and the ability to get him up to speed from being around the group, if he was required in that series, would give us the best chance for Beth to be able to go out there and have significant contribution coming in. Where he did was probably a little bit more difficult because he was probably thinking he might be. He might come in a bit higher in the order. But, you know, like, it's hard because he's. County cricket is a very different game to test cricket. And it doesn't mean that I'm not trying to be derogatory to county cricket. It's just if we were running a county side, it would look very different to the side that we're running now. The players that you pick would be very different to the players that you have in the Test side because it is a different game played on different wickets. It's played continuously with a relentless schedule. So it's impossible to have fast bowlers bowling all the time. Spinners are hardly used at certain stages of county cricket season. Batters that sort of aren't batters who are really good on the back foot, which is a requirement at Test cricket. They don't get past 5 in county cricket because they get the front foot shin from something that's nibbled back. So it's a very different game and you're always trying to work out what's the right way, who's going to be able to transfer from that style of cricket to this style of cricket. And that's probably the gap. We've got to work out how to bridge that gap as well so that it isn't such an element of guesswork. There's actually. Ideally, you'd be able to go straight from county straight into Test cricket and Garrett, and if you were the leading run scorer in county cricket, leading wicket taker, then you'd be the best bowler in Test cricket in the England side and you'd score the most amount of runs. It doesn't work like that. So we've got to find a way to try and bridge that gap as well.

Two questions I wanted to ask. How's Ben Stokes? You spoken to him?

Yep, spoken. Emmy's going well. He's progressing well. So is Mark Wood. So those guys are both huge for us, particularly Stokesley. I thought the India series was his best series. Since I've come on board with him, I feel. I think he bowled faster than we've ever seen. He bowled unbelievable. Wicked taking balls. His control was immense. His batting, I felt, was almost at that. He wasn't far away. I know he got 100, but I think he fought himself a little bit through that hundred. I think his natural tempo is slightly higher than that as well. I think he'll completely let go throughout this Aussie series. He could have a booming series down in Australia. And I thought his captain series brilliant. His connectivity with the group and the way he leads was outstanding. So I thought it was the best I've seen him. I know how much he wants the sashes. My job would be to just finesse that a little bit at times, to make sure he gets through. To make sure he gets through. But sometimes we want stuff too much, right. So we've got to. It's one thing to have that desire for it, but our haste to want to succeed can often be the very thing which stops us from succeeding. So we've just got to make sure we manage to that appropriately. And there's also some unbelievable players in the. In the group. He doesn't have to do it all himself, so, you know he's going to be huge and he's super excited about what's coming. And Mark Wood is certainly progressing as well, and we think that he'll be cherry right for that, that assignment too.

And just in terms of the New Zealand series, as almost a bit of extended preparation into the Ashes might we see some players that aren't necessarily around the white ball group ordinarily, in that maybe one day squad, just to. And I'm thinking Zach Crawley, maybe Ollie Pope, just to be there, to be batting. Or is that not really the way you're thinking?

No, we're sort of. We're working through that a little bit. We haven't. We haven't finalized that yet, but there's certainly something that we, we could do. If we have to take a slightly extended, slightly wider squad, then, then that's fine. I think throughout the time, we've saved a whole lot of money from having these smaller squads, but that's not the objective. The objective is to reduce the amount of squads so that you get the easier connectivity amongst your group, amongst smaller people and smaller support staffs as well. But for this series, it may be that with what's coming after that, we try and use similar conditions to what we're going to have in the Ashes with that series to New Zealand, we may well introduce a couple of those guys and use the Lions campaign as well to get, get some of the other guys who aren't in that up to speed. So we'll have no complaints when we get down there. We should be good to go. Sometimes you make these plans and they fall sort of short of where you want them, but we've made this plan over the last couple of years and we're almost spot on where we want to be. Now it comes down to how we handle it all when we get there.

Brendan, thank you. Thank you ever so much for coming in. I can actually, I can tell the excitement in your voice and it's kind of making me extremely excited. I can, I can almost hear the excitement of Ben Stokes as well. The way you're describing this. When he said he really wants this, I mean, we, we all really want it. It's going to be so exciting. Every ball of every test match on BBC Test Match Special. Go well. Good luck and hopefully see you in Australia. Thanks for, thanks for joining us today.

Cheers, lads.

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