Ben Stokes responds to Noosa revelations & Archer is out

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, I'm Eleanor Aldroyd. Welcome to the TMS podcast from the MCG. On Christmas Eve ahead of the Boxing Day Test, I'm alongside our chief cricket reporter Stefan Schemoldt and our chief cricket commentator, Jonathan Agnew. We'll hear from captain Ben Stokes and we'll discuss the continued fallout from England's trip to Noosa following the third Test defeat at Adelaide Oval, which sealed the Ashes win for Australia.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Well, welcome to Melbourne. Happy Christmas, Jonathan. Happy Christmas, Steffen. Here we are overlooking the massive bowl of the mcg. And Jonathan, Boxing Day test is always a big occasion. You were saying you first played here in what, 1978.

1978 in front of about 30 people for young England against young Australia. Yes. So A long time ago. I also actually played here in front of 85,000 people in the first ever day night One Day International in Melbourne, which if people know what Melbourne's sporting folk are like, that was quite a big event. So I do know what it feels like. I'm putting myself into Ben Stokes's shoes to walk off a massive Australian cricket ground having been thrashed. I've been there.

How'd it go? First time when it was 30 people, I can't remember.

I've got David Boone out, Boone for about 10.

I think that's a flex.

Well, it's good. It's good to have a decent England performance at a massive ground like this.

I don't think I'm quite ready to come back on Boxing Day, though. On the back of that, I don't.

Need you that much agar. So sorry to break that to you, Stephen. Here we are. You know, it's been a pretty difficult reflective all week, hasn't it, really? I think for all of us, we've all been, you know, we've all been prone to bouts of introspection. I imagine the England team have exactly the same. But they've got to go out there and play a test match.

They have, and it must be. I was trying to think of another sport where once you're beaten, you get asked to stay on. I can't think of one particularly where you have to keep playing the same opponent. So I think people might be listening to this and shouting, well, what about a football team that's relegated before the end of the season? Well, at least you play against different teams in a golf tournament. If you miss the cut, you're gone. Don't have to hang around for the weekend. How many Olympics have you covered, Ellie?

Where?

I don't know. If you do your events, they get you out of the Olympic village, don't they, pretty quickly.

Sure, that's true, that's true.

So all of that I was trying to think, well, you know, tennis major, lose, gone, Test series. I don't think there's anything like it in sports where you have to. Even when you know you can't win, you have to keep fronting up day after day against the same opponent. That's incredibly difficult to do.

It's a particular form of torture, isn't it?

It really is.

Well, we're going to hear now from the England captain, Ben Stokes. There's been an awful lot going on in the camp and away from the camp as well. We'll discuss the revelations of more goings on around that Noosa trip. A couple of videos emerging in the last couple of days as well. But first of all, let's hear Agar's conversation with the England captain, Ben Stokes.

There's been a lot of noise behind, hasn't there? I mean, we last talked at Adelaide. Clearly the Ashes lost and that was disappointing. But since then, the emergence of stories from Noosa, videos from Noosa, criticism of the players preparation and behaviour. What's your reaction been to that? An investigation that Rob Keys talked about into that behaviour?

Yeah, my main concern right now, I'm obviously aware of, you know, reports and stuff that's circulating around. And for me, as England captain, my main concern is the players and everyone in the dressing room. It's. It's one of those things now where, you know, it's the way that this is. Has come about and it's almost like I know what it can feel like when everything just piles on. On top of you. It's hard. It's very. You can sort of feel very. What's the word? Insular, I guess. So my main thing right now as England captain is making sure that everyone's okay. And, you know, I know first, firsthand what this can actually make you feel like. And knowing that we've still got two huge games of cricket to play.

That'S.

What I've got to do. I've got to show the support to the players, I've got to show the support to everyone else in the dressing room. Because, you know, my role as England captain is to go try out there and win games of cricket. And I need my players as well to be in the best possible frame of mind to do that. And I think right here and right now, the best thing for me to be able to do is to make sure that everyone knows that, that they have my support, which is obviously through a time of quite a lot going on. I always want to win games of cricket for England and everyone else does in that dressing room. And moments like this where everything comes on top of you, when everyone's hitting you hard, it's so, so hard to be in that right space. But when you've got the support of the people around you in the dressing room, it certainly does help. So the main concern for me right now as England captain is making sure that I've got the players and everyone in the right space to go out there and try and return with two wins from Australia, because that is the main priority for me right now. And I'll always protect my players and everyone else in there as much as I possibly can, because these two games are really, really important to us.

Yeah. Was it inevitable that Noosa was going to be a difficult optic, Even if you're 2 nil up going off on a break, but 2 nil down, wasn't it always going to be a difficult sell and people knowing that you were there and all that sort of thing?

Well, I think it's when you're winning and when you're winning, it's a lot easier to. To sort of not do what you want, but to do stuff when you're losing, like we have done and we're three zero down. Everything you say, everything you do gets criticised, analysed, and rightly so. You don't really have a leg to stand on when you are 30 down in a big series like this. But as I've just said, all I can do, all the senior players and the leaders within the group at the moment, all they can do is try and support each other as best as we possibly can. Because, yeah, it is a tough place to be in right now, but I've had some pretty good times over my career. I've also had some pretty tough times. And first, you know, this is probably the toughest time right now as an England captain that I'll have, but.

You.

Know, I'm going to run away from it and feel like will lead for the rest of this trip.

How.

I think I can help guys get through it. Yeah.

How will that be? What have you got in mind? Particularly for those of you, for those who have had their fingers pointed at them for their behavior? I mean, they're still going to play, presumably, are they. Are they not going to be dropped or that sort of thing?

Well, that's it. Support and make sure that the focus is still on the cricket. All the focus at the moment is obviously not on the cricket. There's a lot. Well, the still is, but there's a lot going on away from the cricket at the moment. And as I said, I'm here to win games of cricket for the remainder of this tour. So, yeah, I need to be focusing on that as much as I can and also need to make sure that the players are focusing on that as much as possible as well.

So, yeah, it's a big responsibility for you, Ben. I mean, you're out there leading the team, you're bowling, you're batting, all of that, and you're having to kind of mentor and comfort players at the same time. How are you handling that?

Well, look, that's part of the job. Everything's easy when it's going well. It's these moments where I guess the responsibility does fall on your shoulders a lot more than it ever has done. And I will always do my best on the field. I'll always do my best off the field. And as I said, I will always, always protect my players, especially in moments like these.

Does it make you enjoy the job when it's like this? I mean, do you. Do you feel. I don't know, does the extra responsibility sit well with you or is it a bit of a pain?

Well, again, responsibility, it comes with the job, I guess. You know, it's, as I say, like, when you're out there winning and everything you decide to do works, it's great. Everyone's giving you praise and saying this, saying that, great things about you. You know, when it doesn't quite work out like that, you know, how. How I handle that, how the rest of the group handles it, I think actually, you know, comes a lot off me and how I respond and how I react to those kind of things. So, yeah, when these two remaining games, you know, there is that big responsibility on how I handle myself and how I speak to the guys in there after this. And look, I'm so focused on these next two games. I'm so focused on what needs to be done out there in the middle, and I need to portray that in the dressing room and for the remainder of the quicker that we got in.

The series, but in private moments. So when you go back to your room and you shut the door, you kind of feel it's all an enormous weight on your shoulders.

Yeah, it was like. It's an emotional job being England captain. I've done it for long enough to know that, and, yeah, I'll take it on. I embrace it. It's definitely something that, you know, you always have in the back of your mind that moments like these will come when you take the job. So knowing that and fully understanding that actually makes these kind of things a little bit easier to deal, if that makes sense. But as I say, I've had a lot thrown my way when I was an England captain. I felt like I've handled that and managed that quite well. And reason why I feel like I was able to do that was because of the support that I had around me. So, yeah, as I've just said there, I'll always support the people who I feel need support around me. And right now, this is one of those moments.

Yeah, it's a tricky time. Christmas Day and all that before the match is this throwing a bit of a dampener on all of that?

I mean, get to rock a pit on Christmas Day mcg with a little bit of training, the families get to come down and, you know, kids will. Some of them might remember walking around the MCG outfield the day before Boxing Day, so.

I hope not.

Then again, when we walk out here on Boxing Day, you know, we've got the, we've got the three lions on our chest, we got, you know, our representative numbers of what number we represent England for. So, you know, there's still that to remember as well, that we've got a hell of a lot to play for still here. Agurs. We've got, you know, the badge, the fans who come out here and support us, the, the people who have represented England before us for the people who are going to represent England when we're done. So, you know, that's sort of, I guess enough to get everybody up for the remainder of these two games, even though we haven't been able to come here and achieve the goal that we wanted.

And it's kind of motivating, isn't it? There's stuff going on in the background, so come on, let's get out there and show them.

Yeah, I guess so. And how you use that kind of stuff, I guess is, you know, you either let it get on top of you too much or you can use it as fuel if you want to use it as fuel. Certain things inspire different people. But yeah, look, everyone will be focused when we come to here on Boxing Day and everyone wants to get that win.

Remember, you can find all our features, podcasts and live commentaries on BBC Sounds by simply searching Ashes. You can hear every ball of the Boxing Day Test match on Five Live. Five Sports Extra and BBC Sounds from 10:55 on Christmas Day night.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio Five Live.

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Goodness me. He was in a somber mood today, wasn't he?

Yes. I mean, you never quite know what you're going to get with Ben, but I think there's been so much out there now since Adelaide from McCollum from him from Rob Key, of course as well, that in a way, I don't think he had much choice but to come out and be honest and open. And I've been really open his soul there a bit, didn't he, about how he's feeling. And it's just very sad. I mean, I cannot understand for a nanosecond why anybody thought that a trip to Noosa was a good idea. I just don't see how that was ever going to look anything but a disaster if they were losing. Quite hard to sell it if you're winning too. Out there on the beach, you're arrogant. You can imagine the stuff. I just. It's just bonkers. It was always going to end badly. This is a group of young men who are told they're on holiday. Well, we know what groups of young men get up to when they go on holiday. They go to Amsterdam, they go to Prague, have a great time. Yes, these are young men, but they're professional cricketers playing for England to win the Ashes. They're here to play cricket. And I'm interested in what Stefan said a few moments ago about playing the same opposition. That's why actually it's a good thing to go and play against other teams. Get away, go and play in Port Pirie, go and play in Bendigo, go and play against a different team. If you haven't got the same bowler running in at you time after time, go and score some runs. That's actually what a cricket tour is supposed to be about. And they've completely lost sight of that. I mean, I thought some of the stuff that Robke and Brendan McCullough have said over the last few days has been quite mind boggling, really. And I just feel, I feel, I do feel sort of sorry for the players because at the start of all this, I think before ball was bowled again, we're talking about preparation in Perth. I think we said, look, if they pack up and leave Sydney having lost, but having given it their best shot, they look in the mirror, as Duncan Fletcher always used to say, look at the man in the mirror. And they feel they're given everything. Well, you can't do any more than that. You've lost, you've lost to a better team. But if you pack up and leave Australia knowing that you haven't given it your best shot, I think that's really sad. That's really sad.

And clearly they haven't given their best shot. And everyone I think pretty much around the team have admitted to that. But to kind of go Back to the Noosa thing for a second, Steph. I mean, as we said, you were there. It was the most predictable thing in the world that somebody with a smartphone was going to take some videos and post them, partly because. And just actually for people who haven't seen them. Remind us what was on those videos.

Yeah. One that certainly circulated last night of Ben Duckett who appeared to be under the influence. And the ECB told us last night that they were going to establish the facts around that. And that came I don't know how many hours after Robke had been speaking earlier on. 12 hours, maybe after Robke had been speaking on. To say that he was going to look into.

It's hard to believe he was by himself, by the way.

Well, if he was by himself, that would be quite. Also be quite concerning.

It would. Where's the security? Where's everything? So, I mean, I think there's more to come on that.

Yeah, so. And that came out at the end of the day when Rob Key had told us that he was going to look into what happened in Noosa. I think my opinion on Noosa hasn't changed too much in that the idea of, like you say, Agar, sometimes when you're winning, this is what it all comes down to. But England aren't winning. And remember the very first Basball Test, so not when England won at Lords, when they sort of all quite normal. The second one when they beat New Zealand and Johnny Bestow made that sure. After that game, England were hanging over the Trent Bridge balcony, all having a drink. Remember what happened that night. Remember the very famous takeaway in Nottingham. Mega Munch has got a place in English cricketing history where Ollie Pope was captured getting his kebab in the early hours. And there are lots of other examples we can point to.

And we all laughed, didn't we, because.

They'D been brilliant at that Test match. Absolutely loads of other examples. Jimmy Anderson sinks a Guinness on the Lord's balcony after his last Test match. Ian Botham he almost used as a tactic, didn't he, to incapacitate opponents.

There are a few I could list in county cricket, yes, but also in.

The days of rest days and Test matches.

But some of that's apocryphal. This has been loose and this team has been loose and the squad has been loose for a long time. They were loose in New Zealand in the one day series coming here. Absolutely lots of stuff coming out of that and the warning bells were sounding and they were ignored. And that is an issue that the Proper bosses at ECB are going to have to get hold of the culture of this squad is not good.

And that's the flip side. So when everything goes well and England have a drink, we go, what a top bunch of lads. But remember before the last Ashes at home golf trip in Scotland, a week beforehand, England find themselves 2 nil down. The previous Test tour of New Zealand, this time last year, England went 20 up, had a great time. After that they only trained one day before the third Test in Hamilton and they got hammered. It's just of course we can keep it. We can sit here and go, great when you win, bad when you lose. And that what it does boil down to. But then can you just use that only in the bad example? You've got to put it to one side when the good as well.

Well, we're sitting up here watching the England team currently on the outfield training Ben Stokes out ahead. I mean, he was very defensive of his players. I think I was all saying he or protective maybe of his players, not defending their behavior, but he's having to.

Do this in his time. He was sent home from a Lions tour for bad behavior, drinking basically. And then of course there was the Stokes night, the club business. So I mean, he's been there, he knows what it's like to be under the spotlight for the wrong reasons. And in a way, I mean, what else, what else can he do? I mean, I'm just saying the question there, you're going to drop them, that's the only other option is either support them or you drop them. And I don't think that's going to happen, largely because in Duckett's case, there is no one else to open the batting. No, it's just disappointing. It's very disappointing and we've said this a lot on this tour that this should degenerate as it has done. But I'm not entirely surprised.

We've spoken agers quite a lot about the culture of this England team and how much Stokes, McCollum and Key need to take responsibility for this. Now, it would take someone very hard hearted not to listen to Ben Stokes today and not feel emotional about that, about what he's going through right now. However, if he's allowed this to happen, knowing what he has been through in the past, is there anything he could have done previously to protect the players from this? If he knows what maybe Ben Duckett is going through right now and has been part of this culture, being allowed to develop for as much as I, I felt emotional listening to him in the press conference, you can see a man bearing his soul and saying, this is as difficult as it's been as the time as England captain. But he still does need to take some responsibility for the situation England find themselves in.

But I'll go back to my original point is, why are they going to Noosa? You don't go to Noosa to sit in your room and sit out at the seaside and the beach and the bars. You don't sit and watch Netflix.

They could have gone and gone to an enclosed golf resort, couldn't they? I mean, we said this at the time, you know, that they actually. That we almost kind of saw it as like a positive thing that they were out in public, that they were, you know, they were mixing with people.

They should have gone and played a game of cricket.

Well, I mean, yeah, but they. But yes, I mean, yeah, that's what.

They'Re here to do.

The weight of captaincy, as you. As you basically indicated to him, Jonathan, you know, he's captain, he's bowling, he's batting. It is such a lot for him to carry on his shoulders, isn't it? And I kind of feel that that weight is harder than it's ever been. Although, you know, as he said, you've got to take the. The rough with the smooth. There have been good times as well as bad times.

Yeah, I mean, he's not a quitter. We know he's taken time out of the game because of mental health issues. He needed a break. I suspect he might want a break after this because it's. As captain, you do feel that you are on your own. Yes. He's got Brendan McCollum. He's got, you know, he's got Rob Keogh knocking around the place with different generations. I don't know who. I don't know who Ben Stokes necessarily goes and talks to when he's got some family here out of Christmas. His mum's here.

Neil Fairbrother, I think would be a.

Big fought for him.

Yeah, I suspect so. But it's a very isolated job. Personally, I hope Ben Stokes continues. I mean, I just think he's the best man. I think he's probably the only man at the moment that's a captain England. And I hope this doesn't push him over the edge, because that would be really sad.

Just, you know, charging around, trying to take a skyer of a catch and having to roll over and, you know.

He loves being 10 inches.

He loves. He loves the responsibility. He really does. He does enjoy all that. But it's just, you know, he's the one who, having to go out there and face it, he's the one who's having to go out there and face it and face the questioning. He's the one who always remembered as captain of this disastrous tour, unless they can win these two games and, you know, I've been in situations in teams where you feel the world's against you and you're being written off and misbehaved or whatever, it can galvanize you. You know, you can get in there. It goes one of two ways. You either get complete bunker mentality and the whole thing completely falls apart, or actually go out there and you say, right, we're going to damn well show these people we're going out there, we're a team. And so, you know, that could happen, that could happen. But we're starting off from a pretty low place on Boxing Day. Morning.

One thing we've always been told, certainly by this team about this team, is how unified they are. They've always told us that they stick together, that Ben stokes and Brendan McCollum. This is one of the things that their key strategies is about putting together this England team, that they stick together in adversity through thick and thin. And you're right, Agarz, that, I don't know. You're giving England no price, are you? All things being equal, they. They will be massive underdogs when they.

Walk down in this Colosseum of the ground. I mean, yes, there'll be some English noise here, but I mean, they're talking about 90,000 being here.

Yeah. And we know that Australia are already missing Pat Cummings and Nathan Lyon. I mean, that doesn't seem to matter throughout the series. They're going to make some changes. Steve Smith's going to come back and captain, but England are huge, huge underdogs. But you're right, you know, sometimes that can be the thing that produces a performance. We have seen it occasionally from England teams at the end of Ashes tours. Admittedly, not for quite some time.

They're always called Pyrrhic victories, though, aren't they? I mean, ones that don't really matter.

But do you think they are, though? Because actually, I think, you know, there are a lot of England fans come out just for these two tests, you know, for Christmas and New Year Test matches. If they could get some pride back by winning here or in Sydney, then that's going to be important. That's more than the period.

Absolutely. And I don't think it'll Take any pressure off. It'll add to the frustration in a way that they've come back and won two games when they could have won other games in this series as well. But that's what they're going to do. They've got to unite and that's what McCullum and Stokes and the others out there, Trisco and Jeetan Patel, all these people, that's what they got to do. They got to get these players together.

I think if you offer most Stokes are performance as well. Oh yeah. If you think that everything that Stokes has been through to get himself on the field, everything that he puts into being England captain, I mean, it's always 20 out of 10 for effort, isn't it? From Ben Stokes and what we saw last week in Adelaide after he made his runs and he felt he couldn't bowl on the following day and all those sorts of things. And now he's the one who's fronting up to answer these questions about may or may not gone on in Noosa. A few of his senior players have gone missing on this tour. They owe him a performance.

Jacob Bethel finally gets his chance. Steffen, what do you think of that?

Well, what an occasion to come back into the England team. And it is the culmination of a long running saga around the England batting lineup, isn't it? I never watched Game of Thrones, but I feel like I've been watching, I don't know, Game of batting or whatever, Bethel and Pope for the past year. Because it was just over a year ago that I stood in Hamilton after Jacob Bethlehem made three 50s in his first three Test matches, batting at number three. And we listened to Brendan McCollum and Ben Stokes give him big licks. At the time, Zack Crawley had just been knocked over for fun by Matt Henry, but they were still giving Zack Crawley lots of backing and that support. It didn't seem like it was there for Ollie Pope. And I was convinced that come the home summer, Jacob Bethel was going to be England's number three. And for whatever reason, some reasons in their control, some reasons not in their control, England have always blinked on making that call of Bethel in the side for Pope and in still, you know, all the things that we think about Jacob Bethel, that he is a generational talent, he's going to have a huge future, that he has gone to play in the IPL with Virat Kohli, all those sorts of things. Still hasn't got a first class 100. And part of that is because he hasn't played a Great deal of first class cricket since he made his England debut. I think the way that England have handled the entire situation has set both men up to fail. And realistically coming on this tour, they knew no more about either Ollie Pope or Jacob Bethel than they did when I was talking to those guys back in Hamilton. And now Jacob Bethel has got to walk out in front of 100,000 people on boxing Day and perform.

Yeah, I mean, it's a huge challenge for him. I mean, we saw him bat at the oval in that test match and he was all over the place. He's a young man who hasn't played very much cricket. And every coach I've spoken to who's come across Jacob Bethel has said that he is a prodigious talent. I mean, they all have from, from school upwards. I hope that he doesn't look at the talk about the looseness of this squad and think it's all a bit of. A bit of fun, you know, because it's actually, it's not. He's going to. He'll realize it's not fun when he walks out there on, on. On Boxing Day morning. But I mean, it is. It's asking. It's asking a huge amount for someone of. Of such little experience to come out and, and play the role he's going to be asked to play. There were a lot of coaches who will be saying, yeah, absolutely right. He could have done this a couple of years ago. To quote Michael Powell I saw on a plane recently, who coached him at school. He wasn't the least bit surprised that he was being put into this position. But, you know, Australia's tough. It's going to be hard. It is going to be very hard indeed. But it does appear that they've turned a page and that you'll have a couple of games now, so we will see how it goes.

It's interesting because Bethel Wheelie has got the first opportunity to stake a claim to New England. But for want of a better term, because we don't know what's going to happen over the next couple of months, we don't know who's going to be the head coach or the director of cricket come the time England next player Test series, which is against New Zealand in June. Bethel will have the T20 World Cup. He'll be part of that squad, I think, to further his claims as an international cricketer. But after that, if there is regime change at the top of English cricket, and we have just been through a period where performances in county cricket haven't always counted for a lot. We could be going into a period where performances in county cricket count for a great deal now in the early part of the season, Jacob Bethel's off to the ipl. So is someone like Jordan Cox, so is Ben Duckett. So if there is, if there is going to be change around the top of the England batting order at some point, if Bethel doesn't take this chance, it could be anyone who's lining up against New Zealand at the start of the home summer. If you think of some of the names that have been through the Lions, Tom Haynes, Ben McKinney, Emilio Gay. Asa tribe finished the season so well for Glamorgan. Made 100 for the Lions against Australia. A what about guys like Dom Sibley, Haseeb Hamid, Alex Lees, who've been tried before, who may think, well, you know what, my name might be back in the mix the early part of this summer if Jacob Bethel doesn't take his chance and we're still having a conversation around, I don't know, Zach Crawley, who probably needs 100 in the next two Test matches to absolutely secure his place. The early part of the English summer is going to be very interesting.

And Steph Joffer Archer has given so much to the side over the last three tests, but sadly he's now out for the rest of the tour.

Yeah, desperately disappointing for Joffer Archer, who spent years battling elbow and back injuries in order to return to Test cricket. Remember that comeback he made against India in July? Took a wicket in his first over. One of the most emotional, almost life affirming moments I think I've seen on a cricket field. And we all wondered whether or not Joffer Archer could become the bowler that we thought he would be in Test cricket. He's been excellent in this series, taken nine wickets. Also registered his maiden half century in that third Test in Adelaide. But a slight warning in Adelaide when Archer was limited to only 12.4 overs in Australia's second innings. A scan in Melbourne on Tuesday revealed this side strain. He'll stay around the squad for the fourth Test, then he'll go back to the UK to be assessed. England will wait to see on Archer's availability for the T20 World cup in India and Sri Lanka, because that only begins in February.

Thank you, Stefan. Thank you, Jonathan. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode. Just search Ashes on BBC Sounds to find all our content and you can hear every ball of the Boxing day test on Five Live. Five Sports Extra and BBC Sounds from 1055 on Christmas Day night and a very happy Christmas to you all.

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