Ben Stokes: the man of the moments

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Stokes takes on the hook shot, he's got it fine, his arms are aloft, he punches the air. 100 for Ben Stokes. His top edge to hook shot, not the best shot he's played, but surely the best innings.

As Stokes, with 2 balls left in this over, is on his way, he's there, he bowls to McCullum.

Oh! Bowled him! He's bowled him first ball!

This ball coming in and bowling to Bogeys.

Oh, he's brilliant, Nicko! Brilliant! That is an outrageous catch by Ben Stokes.

That was gone, it was past him, and he flung himself backwards and to his right. You won't see a better catch, I'm sorry.

So here's Ravada with Mikkel approach, short, pulled away by Stokes.

6 more.

That—

now that was out of the middle, and it's 250 for Ben Stokes.

Sweeps in the air and straight towards Stokes, who takes an incredible Bolt! One-handed catch!

Unbelievable!

Jumping in the air and somehow plucking it out of nowhere.

Well, you have to smile. What a catch!

Bolt's on his way, bowls to him, that's a length, and he heaves it away into the leg side. That's going to go for 6.

In goes Bolt, it's a full toss, swiped into leg side.

They want to get 2 here, surely. Come on, Adil Rashid, run! Stokes to the far end, he's desperately getting there.

Dive!

Oh, that's going to be a boundary. Now that came off Stokes. And it goes to 4. There's nothing they can do about it. That's 4. There's nothing they can do about it. Stokes is saying to the umpire, don't let it count.

And in comes Pat Cummins from the far end.

He bowls to Stokes, who hammers it for 4 and stands there with a bat raised. I can't believe we've seen that.

That is the most extraordinary innings ever, ever been played by an Englishman. Ben Stokes says he's honored to take up the role as England men's Test captain. He's been appointed by the ECB this morning following Joe Root's resignation.

Now here we have got a declaration, and Pakistan needs 343 to win. And England have won this match in the most thrilling of circumstances. The sun is just dipping behind the water tank. There may have been another 10-15 minutes or so of time. England have gambled, they've been positive, they threw the gauntlet down, and they have won this match by 74 runs on the blandest, flattest pitch you could Green bowls and he swings at the next ball and that's gone for another six.

That is gone over deep backward square. This has been a crazy over and 100 for Stokes. Two sixes to go from 88 to 100. What an exhibition this is. Three sixes in the over and the over isn't over and Stokes isn't finished, that's for sure. This is most— the most extraordinary cricket at the moment.

Word has got out that Ben Stokes 25 past 3 on the 4th day, has announced that he's retiring. And he's still bowling, he's got the old ball. Crowd behind him now, over the wicket he goes, bowls to Stokes, edged and caught! Well, there's something Botham-esque about that. The first ball that Ben Stokes has delivered since announcing his retirement takes a wicket. Some people have their scripts written for them and they're beyond the realms of the rest of us. And Ben Stokes is one of those.

Stokes lifts that into the leg side, he's caught at midwicket, the show is over. Stokes hammered it away into the onside, picked out the fielder, and New Zealand have the breakthrough, and Stokes is on his way for the final time.

To reflect on his remarkable career, I've got Michael Vaughan, Alistair Cook, and of course Stephen Finn out here as well. We're just getting some fresh air really, but this was one This is where it all happened, Michael, and I guess we're still in a little bit of shock about it all, aren't we?

Yeah, I mean, 3:25 yesterday afternoon, we were both on the radio. I think this pair to my left were on the television. A sheet came our way. I didn't have a clue what it was. You were a little bit put back as well. Yeah, I mean, it was remarkable really to think that, you know, one of our greatest suddenly decided during a game halfway through day 4 when the game's on a knife-edge to announce his retirement. Gets a wicket next ball.

Again, not surprising when talking about Ben Stokes.

But, um, yeah, I still am a bit lost for words in terms of the timings and the fact that it hasn't sunk into me yet that we'll never see Ben Stokes playing for England again.

But will we?

That's the question. But in the meantime, but let's look back on, uh, that extraordinary career. Let's start with Cookie. Go on then. Um, when was the first time that you came across or heard of a young Ben Stokes?

Well, I'm pretty sure it was when Paul Collingwood told, like the England dressing room said when he was— when we met up again, I can't remember what year it was, said, just seen a young fella at Durham who's gonna be unbelievable. He said he's rough around the edges, he's an all-rounder, he does everything, and he's 100 miles an hour, and it won't be long before he's playing for England. And I was, you know, you do hear that occasionally and you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he was adamant. So that whether he was 16, 15 then, and it was a couple of years later he when he turned up, but I do remember when he turned up, he was this guy who was just, he was just full on, you know, and he didn't accept being second best at anything. So if you were in a fielding competition with him and he missed the stumps, he'd get so angry. I was like, "He only missed the stumps," but no, that's like, and then he would go and do it over and over again until he was the best at doing that, and that's kind of, and also batting on the nets, I remember him once batting on the nets, got out, and he just turned around and just whacked the stumps down, like in absolute anger. I was like, "Mate, it's all right, you got out, you can relax," but he was just wired differently to pretty much everyone else I'd seen. And then the first time obviously he announced himself was in on that Test series in Australia, that pretty tough one, '13-'14. He was pretty much our only standout person and straight away got Australia's respect.

Yeah.

Finney, when did you first hear about this young man?

The first time I shared a dressing room with him was in 2011 and echo the sentiments that Alistair had there were just the absolute competitive and want to win. And it's quite an un-English thing to have that one day between your teeth. Yeah, one day cricket. I played in his ODI debut in Ireland and then there was a series against India afterwards. And I think he busted his finger actually quite badly at the end of that series and wasn't in squads for a little while whilst he got that right. But just the absolute determination to win was something that was quite refreshing. And he was clearly rough around the edges. He was raw. He was young. But when you look beyond that and you saw the talent that he had in every facet of the game, he was like a player that I hadn't seen before. I'd seen guys dominate with the bat or with the ball, but you just looked at him and thought he had the ability to dominate with everything. And then his mentality on top of that is something that just made you think when you first saw him, he's someone that I think could be around international cricket for a long time. And he has been.

The character is clearly a common thread here, Michael, isn't it? I mean, yeah, and actually these, these Big personality all-rounders are often like that.

Yeah, I mean, I remember I got the same phone call from Paul Collingwood back in the day about this young kid. I then thought, I'll keep an eye on Ben Stokes. Just, uh, I think he's around 16, 17, and then he kept on talking about him and looked at his scores. He started to play for Durham. I saw him go 100 against India in 2010 in the Under-19 World Cup, um, and they were a good side back then. And I thought, well, this kid can play. And you know, the more that I saw him, the 2013-14 Ashes series, that 100 that he scored in Perth against Mitchell Johnson, who was bowling rockets, you know, he was bowling, I would say, as quick as I've seen.

Third test that was, I think. He made his debut in the second, didn't he?

He made his debut in the second at Adelaide.

And Trotter had gone home.

Trotter had gone home. And I think the bit where it was that Brad Haddin incident, wasn't it? I think he got him out on a no ball and then Brad decided So he got him out, celebrated, and then Brad decided to come back and give the youngster a bit of a go. And obviously, that was red rag to a bull.

Sensible.

And Stokes, and you just thought, this guy is who you want in the team. And throughout the next few years, he fluctuated between some time, probably more his bowling had more of an impact after that. And more consistently, some spells of bowling, but that competitive edge, and we would death desperate for that. I think anyone is desperate for that. And I know he's a way more rounded person now, you know, in terms of leadership. We'll get on to that in a minute. But there it was, this raw aggression in every moment in the field.

And no, so I think it was, I think it wasn't one of his sort of belligerent innings, was it? It was just a really nice, sleek, well, I think he constructed 150 balls or something.

I think there's a massive crack down the middle of the wicket. So I think to a) he could have played that, but if he didn't hit the crack, it's flat. But he was pulling Mitchell Johnson in front of the square or he was cutting him through the covers. He was hitting the ball so cleanly. That's what stepped out his bat at the beginning, how cleanly he struck the ball. It was just a sit up and go, this guy can bat.

And it's his want to be there in those moments that stood out for me. I was on that tour, but I didn't play a game. So you're kind of observing everything whilst you're thinking about yourself, but you're also there in the dressing room watching and he just didn't back down. And that was a series where on the whole as a team we did back down. But that Brad Haddin situation was the first moment you thought this guy wants to be in the thick of these crunch moments in games. Then that 100 at Perth where you could fit your whole hand down that crack. Do you remember his toe?

Do you remember his toe as well?

Toe was hanging off as he's bowling on rock hard pitches.

Was it his left or right?

Yeah, left.

Left, so there. And as he bowled, slammed it down because he didn't have the right boots probably, or made for him because he's just a youngster. But he made a massive hole in it, went through there, went through 2 pairs of socks every session, and basically ended up just being his bone on that. And did he moan about it? No, he just sat there.

He got 6 for 9 balls in the 5th Test.

Presumably, I mean, because it was quite a shell-shocking experience that trip, wasn't it? But you just had no doubts about putting this— you know, young cricketer for his debut in to go and face that?

No, absolutely not. You know, actually, he would have been almost the first name on the team sheet after, you know, after the initial shock of Brisbane and then after he saw it ahead in Adelaide. Probably ideally you'd think, oh, you wouldn't want to throw anyone into the debut of the Test match, but there's who could cope with it. Ben could cope with it.

Yeah, yeah. What about before we go into those specific contributions and so on, what do you think he'll be remembered for most, Michael? Because Ben Stokes is real contribution to English cricket, if you like?

I think usually with players when they retire, you do remember one thing that they've done, but I think he's got too many. Yeah, I honestly just think back, I mean, a bit of controversy that he's brought, um, the World Cup final at 84 not out, getting them to the super over, uh, that innings at Headingley. I guess that probably tops the lot if I ever had to pick one, was that innings. But Oh, there's been so much. Look, bowling to Carlos Brathwaite in 2016, you forget that he got hit for all those sixes. So to have the resilience to come back from that—

I was commentating on that and I really believe that would be the last. I thought that would have broken him, and that would have broken so many. It's in front of so many people, such a high profile, and to get smashed for four sixes like that, yeah, that would have broken people.

Yeah, this is why he's so good, because he, he, he's taken, you know, he's had had some bruises throughout his career, you know. It's not all been plain sailing, you know. Being sent home from a Lions trip in 2013, he obviously was on the naughty step. But there's always found a little bit of naughtiness in Ben. There's been one or two aspects of his career. But to bounce back from a bit of controversy, to bounce back from a moment in a T20 World Cup final where England are strolling the game, and to lose that from that position, to then come back and be the player, and then a few years later become an incredible captain. I think he became an incredible captain because of all those problems that he had. He could understand everyone in the dressing room. He could understand the best player in the dressing room because he's been there. He could understand the naughty kid in the corner because he's been there. He could understand those that weren't quite working hard because he's probably been there himself. I think that's why he became such an empathetic captain. And I think that was probably the one thing when he took over. 'Oh, what's he going to be like with his teammates?' And from speaking to the likes of Alistair and those that have played under him, he became an incredible man-manager and really good with the human beings, which I always got taught as a captain that, you know, you look after the human, not the player. And if you can look after that human being, you've got a better chance of being a good captain. And it sounds like Ben did that better than most.

It's interesting that, because when you look at Stokes, smothered in tattoos, and you talk about the and Bristol and that sort of thing. And yet he is a bit of a softie really inside, isn't he? I mean, his mother's a grief counsellor in New Zealand and you can definitely— there's definitely that side of Ben's character.

Yeah, and also the care he has for the team he's playing in. And it doesn't matter what team he's played in, whether it's going back to Durham or here at England or, you know, when it was, you know, in 2015, it was genuine care and want that that team to win there and then care for the people in there. You go about those moments, Headingley without a shadow of a doubt. Yes. Being there and seeing that was the most incredible thing I've ever seen. But just a couple of different ones that the bowling, I'm pretty sure in, I want to say you got Pfeiffer in the Ashes in the second innings here when we'd lost it. When did Jimmy Anderson get injured or something?

6 for 36 he got here in the Broad game.

Yeah, in the Broad game. So everyone remembers the Broad, everyone remembers his catch, but actually the second innings when, you know, it didn't get tight, but he then bowled another one of his mammoth spells, got 6 for swinging it all over it. And it's just the big moments he delivered time and time again. As a cricketer, I always thought Broadie had that as well. When it really mattered, he delivered. I thought, when you retire, I think, how good would that be to know that when it really delivered? I think unfortunately for Broadie, I think Stokesy's gone up a level on that kind of thing.

I remember when Shane Warne went to play for Hampshire and what he brought to that Hampshire dressing room. You can imagine the Durham players now, you know, knowing that they played with him last week and to hear him announce last night he's going to go and play for Durham. If I was a young player and I'm up at Durham and I'm in and around that first team, second team, I can't wait, you know, to play in the dressing room with Ben Stokes, just to watch him and learn from him. And as I said, we'll no doubt discuss, maybe we'll see him again in a year's time.

We'll have to wait and see, but I'm going to ask you now because you've raised it. I mean, do you think, and the character that we've talked about, this fierce competitor who really is, he just is so motivated, is he going to be content playing at Chester-le-Street when England are playing Australia at Lord's? Is that going to fire him up?

He may do. He may be able to fire himself up for 3 men and a dog and a couple of other dogs. That's the question. Watching him at Chester-le-Street, he might be able to find that mentality. Quality, he's different to most. But I just think when the Ashes come around next year, if he's fit, April, May is always a good month or two for county cricket. It's kind of the spotlight. That's where you're looking at bringing players in and potentially those going out of the team. The IPL is on, which always seems to get a little bit of negativity. So there'll be England players at the IPL, which will cop a few negative comments because they're not back here in the UK. That's always the nature of the beast. If Ben— I'm sure he will be if he's fit— is scoring runs, taking wickets. And as I've said to you, I think there will be a change in management. I can't see how this management will carry on for another year. If there is a change in management, and obviously there'll be a new captain, if that captain's not getting in his car and driving up to Durham and just saying, Ben, please, one last hurrah against the Aussies, I can't imagine Australia next summer without Ben Stokes somewhere involved. So I think it's a watch this space.

All right, I'm going to ask you two the same question shortly, okay? But let's start. Cape Town, the 250 that he scored there— what I mean, it was that, that, that was kind of Ben Stokes, I thought, at his best, because it was such an aggressive, such a bruising second fastest double century in history. That— I know we would— yeah, we will talk about Headingley and, and the way that he played there particularly. But just in terms of crisp hitting and a destruction of an attack, that Cape Town inning stands out for me.

Yeah, but it wasn't full of risk. That's what made it so special. It wasn't a ramp for me. It wasn't the ramps and you getting away with it. It was just him standing, hitting the ball on the top of the bounce. Yeah, I guess some good balls as well. Rabada was playing and just hitting him at will where he wanted to. I think maybe when he got close to 200, he was just clearing his leg and after 200. But up to that moment, I think I can't remember what he was was at the end of day 1, but I'm going to say he was on about 70 or 80. The last thing I said to him was like, because he played beautifully that night before, I said, just mate, just take yourself, take a bit of time to get back in again. Because, you know, I always found it really hard to get back in. First 2 balls, I went to the toilet, I didn't see him, crashed for 4. It was 8 off 2. I was like, all right, he's back. Just ignore exactly what I say. He's back in again. A brilliant, brilliant double hundred.

Yes, he was. I just remember, were you there, Finny? I can't remember.

We fielded 211 overs. I remember it well. So you sat and watched Sat and watched it. And he actually did it in the warm-up game. I think we played a warm-up game in Potchefrustrum before that. And must remember that that summer before was Trevor Bayless's first summer. And actually, I think one of the biggest moments in Ben Stokes's career is when Trevor Bayless came in and said, you're my number 6. Because before that, he'd fluctuated from a number 8 to 7. He was a bowler who was doing a bit of all-round batting. I think Bayless came in and said, 'Ben, you're my number 6. You will have the responsibility to bat like a proper batter and then bowl the overs and be that charismatic character within the dressing room that we need.' And I think that performance was off the back of the trust that Trevor Bayless gave to him, which then allowed him to grow into the player that affects those massive moments in games that we see now.

There's a couple of moments. I think Peter Moore's got him under his wing a little bit. And really got Ben to really think about detail. So I think he came in, when he first came in, he just played, bit of aggression. They had Mooresy to get that real technical work done, and that, right, you gotta be this, this, this, and then we got that level, and then suddenly Trevor came in, and Trevor was just like, be you now. So he kind of done all the work under Peter Moores, that kind of dedication, he kind of got this dedication right, and everything off-field and all his technique, and then had Trevor to come in You're my man. And I think that helped him.

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I've watched him train unbelievably hard, isn't it? I mean, he is, he is extraordinarily fit. What about practice? I mean, is he a big actual practicer? Does he bowl a lot? Does he bat a lot? He really works hard at his game.

Yeah, like probably for his body the last couple of years, a slight detriment to it because of the injuries, because he couldn't just cruise a session. You know, sometimes on a Tuesday before a Test match, on a Thursday, you can know the experience. Like Jimmy wouldn't have bowled a huge amount of balls. Like Broad, he like 75%, 80%, get through it. Save yourself. Ben just couldn't do that, which is what made him so different. But yeah, he trained, trained like a— trained the house down and set standards fitness-wise where everyone always takes it. The next generation, I thought I was fit, and then you see these guys, what he's done is way fit.

Yeah.

And getting back to that character, just being driven, driven, driven to be the best.

Yeah. I mean, to play for such a long period of time, to captain, you've got to motivate yourself. You know, you have to have that, that motivation when you wake up in the morning, particularly someone that's done everything, you know, been the bowler, been the fielder, as fit as Alistair says, obviously hits many, many balls. It takes it out of your body, and to think that he's done it for such a long period of time and he's got up every morning probably with aches and pains and probably more pains than we know about, to have that motivation to keep going. Again, it's no surprise that he woke up one time over the last last few weeks and thought, no, the fire's burnt out. Um, that's why I keep saying sometimes you can rebuild a fire. That's why I'm not ruling it out. I can't because it's Australia next summer and I want the best England team and he's going to have to be in it.

I think, I think we're all kind of— whether it's just, you know, think, oh, perhaps, you know, hope, hope for— perhaps in hope.

I think the more everyone's pushed him that way, the less it's going to be, you know.

He's quite stubborn. He's quite quite stubborn. But yeah, what about the way he constructs his innings and also to bat through all this? Because you see highlights, don't you, of him smashing the ball around. We all know, you know, I talked about Cape Town and we'll talk about Headingley and so on, but actually a lot of his innings, a lot, not even the ones which he scores big runs, but he does tend to actually start really quite slowly.

Yeah, I mean, again, there's been many great players that play for England, but I have been right at the top in terms of the chase. You know, when the chase is on and the pressure's hot, you know, you go to that World Cup final, he just found a way. He found a, he found a, you know, a simple way to start with, and then the rotation of strike, then nipping it into the onside for a couple of twos, and then the boundaries had to come. And he knows how to find the boundary. That 100 he got against Australia after Johnny Bairstow gate, yes, I mean, from nowhere. He was pretty much plodding along like Sir Alistair, then suddenly turned into Sagarfield Sobers. He can bat like Alistair and Sagarfield. That's the best compliment I can give him. And he just has an amazing calmness when the chase is on. I mean, the Headingley Chase, the World Cup final, the chase in the T20 final in Melbourne against Pakistan. I was watching, going, oh, he's completely screwed this up.

Yeah, it looked like the game was lost.

And then suddenly starts finding the boundaries. And he is an amazing character and calmness when everyone else around, and those on commentary as well are panicking. He seems to be able to find that kind of zen of knowing how exactly to get over the line with the bat in hand.

I think a couple of years ago he would have batted at 6 or 7 here and been thinking, I want to let them do their work, and then whatever situation the team finds themselves in, I will be able to deal with it and cope with what the team needs. I'm not sure he's— I think he might have lost a bit of trust in his batting over the last year or so. Maybe that's part of the decision why he wants— as Thorny is saying timeout, I'm saying retiring.

We're going to rebuild this fire. We're going to just get a load of logs.

A bit of paraffin. I don't think he quite trusts his batting as much as— no way Ben Stokes, I would have known, when said, you're going to bat at 7, he would have said no, I want to bat at 6.

What about technique? Because again, we go back to a lot of the big hitting stuff because that sort of lives in the memory. But technically, I mean, he could open the batting, not like yesterday, but, but, you know, he'd be good enough, wouldn't he? His technique.

Absolutely. I think his technique actually at his best was very simple and very still at point of delivery and head in a good position. And his natural timing of the ball means, you know, he hit the ball incredibly hard. Yeah, but you're— for a couple of years, he probably had England's best and most reliable technique.

Yeah, yeah. Well, on to my favorite. I know, you know, I'll never see another test— we will never see another test match like Headingley 2019, and coming so soon after the World Cup as well. I mean, he was just on top of the world then, wasn't he? I mean, both of them obviously attracted attention in a similar way, but somehow that was Ben Stokes' summer.

Yeah, it was. And we'll no doubt talk about the innings because that was exceptional. I have that right up there with the best that I've seen, but it was his bowling spell. Yes, you know, he was often overlooked. I think Joffre was struggling and couldn't quite get the overs in, and suddenly Ben went, give me the ball, because Australia were so far ahead of the game. And Ben produced this mammoth bowling spell to give England just a glimmer, just a glimmer of hope. And you just know with someone like Ben Stokes, you only have to give him a glimmer and he'll believe, you know. And the Aussies had a chance to just take that glimmer away from Ben, but because he got the ball in hand and he kept on going and he kept on going Suddenly the chase is on and then you lose wickets. And I think his first 50 came in a ridiculous amount of balls.

He had to bat the night before, didn't he? And he walked out and Lyon was bowling and he just blocked. He literally didn't play a shot because he said, I remember chatting to him after, he said, I had to be there the next morning if we had any chance. So over my dead body, block. Bat like me, you're going to say now, but that's what he did.

It's a good way to bat, sir Alex.

Yeah, but right, again, it was such a slow start, and then, well, the next day, I mean, could anyone else have done that? I suppose Ian Botham could have done it. People compare the two, don't they? And they say that Ian's innings in '81 was in a losing situation. I mean, the game was done. He went out and played like he did brilliantly. However, for Stokes, Ashes on the line, number 11 at the other end, I mean, there was a lot to play for for the pressure on Stokes.

It was ridiculous. I mean, I kind of look back at it now and we see so many of the highlights and I still can't believe he did it. Yeah, you know, some of those shots, the reverse sweep into the stands, flicking Hazelwood into the terrace on a few occasions. Then Lyon came and bowled a little bit slower and wider outside off stump into the footholds and he was flat batting him down, down the ground for 6, which was only going what, 20 yards in the Loft one, and I think everyone thought, oh no, that's it.

And it just, there's quite a short boundary up at our commentary box end, and it just plopped over the top. But I remember the sound of it hitting the bat, thought, oh no, that's all over. It just got enough on it.

Everyone talks about that, but that was the last 70 runs. But then he was on, what do you mean, 70 or 80, played beautifully there. The next morning, he ran out Joss Butler as well, so he threw that one in the mix that you'd also said you want in that positions of chase. But without a doubt, for me, the best innings I've ever seen because it had absolutely everything. We always talk about, you know, we like T20, but you play the same way. Test cricket, you have to play for the situation. And that situation for his 130-odd required different methods for different moments. And he was good enough to play every single method needed. And that's for me, the one I've seen live was just Absolutely extraordinary.

And he sparked up, Steven, just so much enthusiasm into cricket, didn't he? I mean, he really did. He brought cricket into the front room again.

Well, that summer was just incredible, wasn't it? And the character— what we always come back to with Ben Stokes is the character. And he was the one when no one thought it was possible, he would always believe. And I think you felt that as a player when you're playing with him in the dressing room. He made you believe playing alongside him. That the impossible was possible. And in that 2019 chase, the ability to stay calm and think about the runs and the situation with the runs, but also to stay calm given that you're trying to manage a number 11 situation with Jack Leach at the other end and how many balls he needs to face. To be able to put all of those different hats on in one innings is simply incredible.

Michael said his bit. You two have got 10 seconds each. Is this the end, or will he be riding on his white charger down the M1 at the start of next summer to go and face Australia?

I think this is the end of Ben Stokes. I think this is, from what I've heard, whatever the real reason, I think he's got tired. I think I captained and opened the batting, and I found it tiring. He then, so I had, but I still had the odd day where I stood in the, I stood there, did nothing. Every day he's involved, and I think event, he's just got to that point, and I thought, why has he got tired after 4 months? You know, he's had a 4-month break, so he's not been on the treadmill, he's been at home, and I think he might have just thought, you know what, I don't need this stress anymore. So I'm going to say no, just to be different.

My heart agrees with Sir Alistair, but the more I talk to Vorni, the more I believe it's possible.

I'm going to be on the streets of this country on time with banners.

Great stuff. Thanks, you three. There we Well, a lovely look back at an extraordinary career. I'm still hopeful. I'm still— come on, John!

Yeah, I like it, but I, I, I'm gonna—

I don't know, I'm in for a—

we could get 20,000 here today on the streets campaigning around next June, right?

Simon Mann is up there in the commentary box.

Great stuff, thank you very much, uh, Jonathan. Stephen Shemet, our cricket correspondent alongside. We've got an easy job here, Stephen, just to put Stokes's career in context.

Yeah, and it's easy, isn't it?

You're right.

But I suppose you look a bit deeper into everything that Ben Stokes has achieved.

I just—

I was having a look at some of his, his career numbers. So for England, more Test runs than Graham Thorpe and Dennis Compton, more caps than Gower and Boycott, more wickets than Gough and Harmison, at a better strike rate than either Anderson or Botham, more Tests as captain than Brealey or Illingworth, and more sixes than anyone ever. And you know, you and I, Simon, this— we've been watching the Football World Cup, haven't we? And you think about, um, performances in World Cup finals by Englishmen in any sport and what that leads to and, and what that can mean for the rest of their life. You know, Geoff Hurst, Johnny Wilkinson— Stokes did that twice. And that's before you think about the moments that he's provided in Test cricket as well. So what we're talking about is one of the greatest men to ever pull on an England shirt, but also one of the most significant British sportsmen of the last, well, however many years.

You also, you look at the stats, people say, oh, he only averaged 34 with the bat and 31 with the ball, but you always think of a class or defined as being someone whose batting average is above their bowling average.

And I've just reeled off numbers and stats, but he's a cricketer of more than numbers, isn't he? Moments, really. And has any cricketer had more moments than Ben Stokes? Almost certainly he's had the most since both of them, hasn't he? So, you know, that first 100 in Perth, what he did in Cape Town, Lords in the World Cup final, Headingley, um, in the Ashes, Melbourne in the T20 World Cup final, and then as a Captain, Roel Pindi, Hyderabad. So these almost twin legacies as an all-rounder and as a captain. And I just mentioned Botham and Brealey. He's almost been Botham and Brealey rolled into one, except without what you would say as a, as a cricketer, a defining Ashes series, that a defining Ashes performance, and as a captain without that Ashes series win.

Yeah, and that's obviously not going to happen now. I mean, he did win the Ashes in 2015. And I mean, it felt like, you know, a year to go, it felt like one more year, didn't it? And that's what they were chanting here yesterday, one more year.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of us, and, you know, we just heard the discussion down there whether or not Stokes will come back and play in the Ashes next year. And I think that's all because we're all thinking it wasn't supposed to end this way. It was supposed to end next August or July or whatever with Ben Stokes at the Oval Australia beaten, Stokes holding up the urn and riding off into the sunset, into retirement. But what has actually happened, and he sort of mentioned this in his chat with you last night, in that what happened in Australia set in wheels or set in motion the process for him to be unable to take on Australia again. I think someone said to me yesterday it was CMJ who once said a player never gets over a bad tour of Australia. Maybe that's just the case with Ben Stokes.

Yeah, and look, international sport, pro sport is brutal, isn't it?

Absolutely. And think of everything that Stokes has been through, all those injuries, everything he's had to go through to get back on the pitch physically and mentally. If he says he's burnt out, I think I believe him.

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Can you quite believe that it is all over?

Yeah, because I said it was. You go through, you know, everything— happiness, sadness, excitement, and all those kind of things. So I guess I'll probably end up going through them for the next week. But look, there's stuff that I've got to be able to look forward to as well, and but there's also stuff that I'll miss. And that feeling, some of the feelings you get from playing Test cricket, are some of those things that I am going to miss, you know. When the crowd gets on your back, when you walk out and, you know, everyone's clapping or cheering your name, and, you know, no longer be able to have the Bamiyami singing, all those kind of things. Those are things that you're desperately going to miss. You're going to miss the time in the dressing room with people who, you know, you go to war with, essentially. So those are the things that you're desperately going to miss. And believe it or not, I might miss doing this. But look, there's excitement, there's sadness, and all that kind of stuff that you go through. But at the end of the day, it's the person who makes the choice, which is myself, knows that it's the right one for me.

What have been the special moments in your Test career?

Oh, there's been, there's been quite a few. I think again the 2015 Ashes, winning that here, that was an amazing memory to be a part of. Obviously I was quite young back then and just sort of learning, learning the trade of being a Test match all-rounder. First time leading the team out as official captain, incredible. And then some of the moments that I've been able to be on the field to experience other people's success. You know, I look back to Brodie's last Test match and taking his last wicket, being a part of James Anderson's last Test match, Stuart Broad, seeing Joe Root do what he's done out on the field as an individual. Just, I could name you loads. And through all the moments I feel that I've been lucky enough to be a part of as myself. I think I'm also feel extremely lucky that I've been out on the field and been a part of some of the greatest players to play the game for England, but also on the other side, you know, since some of the greatest players who play the game who I've managed to play against. So yeah, look, I've been very fortunate to have done this as a job for a very long time, especially, you know, as a kid growing up, just messing about with my mates in the back garden and smashing windows you know, to call this a job for as long as I've been able to do has been absolutely awesome and something that I never took for granted. And, um, yeah, I'm very proud of sort of, I guess, what I've been able to do.

You retired from one-day international cricket, Ben, and you came back. You're sitting on your sofa next summer, I don't know, it's June and the Ashes are on, you're thinking, oh, I do miss this. Is there any way at all you would think about coming back?

I wouldn't be sat on my sofa, I'll probably be up hospitality somewhere watching people running and bowling, going, I remember when I used to do that. But look, isn't it amazing how yesterday happens and then I get asked the next day if I'm going to be playing in an Ashes Test match next year.

Well, they were shouting one more year over there last night.

I mean, that's for me, that's just something nice for me to, you know, just hear back and listen. But it's, you know, I've given everything that I possibly could have done in every time that I've stepped down on the field for England, but it was not happening anymore. Yeah, I've got other things that my mind is sort of focusing on now, and, you know, I've obviously sacrificed a lot, but there's also other people who have sacrificed a lot along the way for me, and that includes my wife, my children now, who have got their own sort of interests and their own things that they want to do, and I want to be able to go and share those experiences with them. I had kids quite young, so they're quite grown up now. And of all weeks, last week when I wasn't playing, my son decided that's when he wants to really get involved into cricket. And I was like, thanks for choosing this week to do it. So even like little things like that, you know, just being able to enjoy those things alongside with my family who have been there through thick and thin with me. Yeah, those, those are kinds of things that I'm excited about.

Ben, many congratulations on your career. Thank you very much indeed.

Thanks, mate.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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