Ben Stokes unhappy with criticism from ‘has-beens’

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, I'm Stefan Chemalt and this is the Test Match Special podcast in Perth As England step up their preparations for the first Ashes Test. We are a day away from England's only warm up match, a three day against the England Lions and this is the first in daily episodes of the TMS podcast across the Ashes tour. We'll hear from England captain Ben Stokes and discuss the latest Australia injury problems while we're in the stands at the waca, the beautiful old ground that has seen so many famous Ashes moments. It's no longer a Test venue in men's cricket. The first Ashes Test next Friday takes place at Optus Stadium. We can see that vast bowl away to our right across the Swan River. We're watching Western Australia bat against Queensland in the Sheffield Shield. Cameron Green and Marnus Labs Shane Australia players who'll be involved in that first Test are involved in this game. It's been a busy day in Perth. A little bit later on we'll talk about the injury scare to the Australia pace bowler Josh Hazelwood. But first we're going to hear from the England captain Ben Stokes. Now this was the first time we've spoken to Stokes since he told us he was out of the fifth Test against India in July. He's now back from that shoulder injury and we'll play in England's tour game against the Lions tomorrow. He talked to me about a whole range of subjects including his recovery, Ollie Pope criticism of England's preparations and the reception he and his team have received in Perth.

It's good to see you For a start. How are you?

Very good, thank you.

And it's a long time since we've seen you. When we last saw you, you were telling us you couldn't play in that fifth test against India at the oval. I think at the time you were a bit sort of vague and guarded about what you told us about your shoulder. So can you tell us any more about what happened, what the injury was and what you've been through to get to this stage? Tore my shoulder.

So yeah, I had a bit of time, just let everything heal and settle down and then straight into the rehab to, to get ready for here. I was never, never worried that it was ever going to impact any preparation or anything like that coming up to the series because I had such a long break. So yeah, if anything it was nice just to have a tiny little break at the end of that. Although I prefer being able to play in that last test match. But yeah, that's all behind me. It's a long time ago and yeah, we're in a really good place at the moment.

Was it actually nice having a break? Because I don't always think you're great at sitting still, are you?

I mean, obviously I was devastated to miss that last game against India and such a big game and would have been amazing to be able to finish off what was such a great series. I had no intention of playing any cricket after that anyway. I wasn't playing in the hundred. I was always going to be a part of the Northern superchargers in that capacity anyway. But yeah, I guess it was nice just to be able to put the feet up and not do too much. But then as soon as it got to the point with my rehab that could start hitting the ground running. That's what we've done.

You'd obviously play such a huge role in that series. Did the injury occur because of what you put your body through, what you asked yourself to do, or was it one of those things that could have just happened at any time?

Well, it could happen to any time and I think, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, when you're in your athlete you're always exposing yourself to dangers of injury and it's part of what, what you do. You know, when obviously I bat a bowl, I feel. So it's pretty high intensity role that I do. So yeah, it's, it's frustrating, it's annoying. But also, and take a little bit of realization that every now and again we might pick up a little niggle here and There, but yes, not through lack of hard work and making sure that I'm always putting my body in a good place to be able to get through a series.

Feels like we ask you this a lot, but have you got to do anything to, I don't know, look after yourself to make sure you get through to January injury free?

That's all I've been doing for the last three months is making sure I'm fit as I always do and strong and. And then when obviously the test series starts, about being sensible through the rest periods, about how much work that I do do because I've had two and a half, three months of building up to get here now. And that's where all the hard work goes in. That's where you put all the high intensity and tough work in. And then as you get into a series, that's where you sort of taper off on that and just tick over in between the games.

Saw you having a bowl yesterday. Are you in the place where you're confident that you can play a full role as a seamer in that first test next week?

I've been bowling like that for two months now. Yeah, a month and a half.

And what about this week? I mean you don't always play warm up games. So what are you going to do this week, what you're trying to get out of this week from a personal point of view?

Yeah, we obviously got this three day game against thankfully having the Lions out here on their tour as well. Yeah. So yeah, next three days is balls to the wall for everyone. Yeah, no easing into it. So yeah, it'll be be a good run out for everyone.

You got an England team that's going to play well.

We're going to be getting everyone in our squad, timeout in the middle, mixed between the two, 11. So yeah, everyone will be getting some opportunity and some time out in the middle.

And there's going to be an England Eleven, is it Eleven aside?

Well, yes, 11 v 11. Cricket, innit?

As in there's not going to be, you know, players rotating in and out where, you know, sometimes you might have 12 or 13, some bat, some field.

No, it'll be 11 v 11, you know, like proper. As I said it would be taken very seriously this next three days for us. As I said, we've got nine days until that first Test match so a lot of things can happen. And yeah, it's a nice opportunity to allow everyone from our squad that we've chosen to be able to get some time out in the Middle.

You just said balls to the wall. Is that how you want it to be for the next few days? The intensity that you're looking at from this game.

Definitely, yeah. Because 21st will come around quick. I think it has done anyway, like, when we first got out here, it seemed like it was ages away, the first Test, and now I'm here saying it's only nine days. So, yeah, we've prepared incredibly well, all in different sort of places and continents, if you might say. But look, everyone's been preparing for this series, in particular for a long time now. Come the 21st, we'll be good.

Is the England 11. The 11 that you'll be leading. Is that confirmed?

No. There's nine days for the first game. No, this week, nine days for the first game. So there's a lot of things to happen and everyone in the squad will be getting run out.

Okay.

Yesterday we asked Marcus Raskothek who's going to be batting at number three this week, and he'll be batting next week at number three in the first Test, and he said he expects it to be the number three. That's been in place for a long time. Is that what you're expecting?

Yeah. We've been very consistent with our team selections. We know exactly what we want out of the team that we pick. And look, hope he's done a great job for us at number three whilst he's, you know, what's the saying that the shirts is. Or whatever it is.

He's a man in possession.

Man in possession. That's the one I was looking for. But as I said, look, there's nine days to go. There's a lot of things that can go right. There's a lot of things that can go wrong. So you'll obviously have a team for us. One day, two days out, like normal.

He's not the vice captain of the test team anymore. What part did you play in that decision?

Yeah, look, it was. I think Popie did an amazing job as vice captain. He was incredibly valuable to me. A lot of work that we did together is obviously, you know, behind the scenes and, you know, helping me through particular periods in games which our relationship grew. You know, I think he got better and better in particular when I was bowling, of taking on a bit more responsibility in terms of just those tiny little things around, angles in the fields or whatever it may be, seeing certain things. And he's got a great cricket bane. He contributed to a lot of wickets that we ended up getting that I probably got credit for. But I think it's a natural progression in terms of Brookie's leadership within England. He's obviously taking on the one day job now. So Brookie's been one of those senior players and guys that I'll go to as well as a few others. So, yeah, it was the right time to sort of Brooky to come in and be that vice captain under myself in particular now that he's got the one day job with England. So I think it's just another progression with him in terms of leadership for English cricket.

You'll know there's been a lot of debate around your preparation for this series. Just playing the one game this week, what have you made of that?

Yeah, interesting. I think it's coming from. Cricket's changed so much. Preparation is nowhere near as simple as it used to be. You used to be able to come out on a tour, I don't know, months and a half, two months before the first game started. But now there's so much cricket packed into a calendar and the schedules and stuff like that, it's just impossible to be able to do how it used to be done. Look, we've been preparing for this tour, not over the last three weeks. We've been putting a lot of thought and process to this for probably a few years now. So I don't know what else we're expected to be able to do. There's shield cricket going on at the moment, so who will we play against? And look, we're about to go out and face a team who've got obviously a mix between our squad and also the next best player in England. So, yeah, there's quite a few factors that play into the role of why we can't prepare. How the has beens have maybe prepared in the past, it's just all changed. The landscape of cricket's changed and I think that affects preparation and, and how you're able to do it. But we're confident and we're very comfortable with how we prepare because we leave no stone unturned whatsoever.

And just finally, something else you wouldn't be able to escape is that the hype around the series. Pictures of you wheeling your trolley through the airport in front of the local peg.

I think they called you Captain Cocky.

What do you make of that?

I think it's unbelievable journalism to be able to get that much information on the front page and a headline out of a bloke pushing a suitcase through an airport. So fair play. But like I said, I think it's been good. I was a bit gutted when they turned their attention over to Ruti because I was waking up waiting to see what the next headline of me was. But it's, it's, it's expected. That's part of being in Australia. It's another one of those things that we're gonna have to deal with. And yeah, especially some of the guys who are out here for the first time, it's, it's letting them know that that's probably what's going to be like. So it's not just stuff out on the field that can get you, it's also some of the off field stuff and it's just how you take it. You either take it in your stride, laugh it off and just say that's, that's what it is, or I don't think we'll let that affect us too much. But yeah, it's been, it's been good and I think it's only going to get probably bigger, better, maybe. Don't know. But yeah, been enjoyable so far.

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Cool.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

So that was England captain Ben Stokes. I'm alongside Rory Dollard of the Press Association. I and Rory when Ben Stokes talks, there's a lot to unpack, isn't there?

He's quite an engaging character as we know. I don't think he's dodged a question in the three and a bit years since he's been England captain. He's thrown a few breadcrumbs in the wrong direction at times and he's given us a few bum steers along the way, but he's never left us short of something to say or something to write. So yeah, with so long since we last saw Ben in action and the fact that he missed that decider of that great India Test series, worth catching up with him and he had plenty of interest to say this time.

I think that the thing that struck me amongst all the chat about England's preparation and whether or not they're getting it right, he was really keen to say how intense that this three day against the Lions is going to be, which is that bit rich coming from Stokes. He doesn't normally play warm up games, does he?

No, he has made a point of since he's been captain, particularly saying that he doesn't get anything out of him. He's a big match animal and sort of going through the motions doesn't do a lot for him. This presumably is much more about physical prep than getting himself in mental shape because everything I've heard I'll speak to Graham Onions at Durham and he says Storks is just flying and he said he's got the look behind the eyes that tells you how much this means. So I don't think he needs to. Nobody need ever worry about Ben Stokes, his competitive edge. But it is interesting. I think he made a couple of good points. He said that sort of in terms of the criticism that England have had some friendly fire from home and some less friendly fire over here. You know, he pointed out that because as we're watching a game of Sheffield Shield cricket right now that basically means they couldn't have an elite warm up against local opposition. They would have been playing a very unreliable game of cricket.

And how many times have we seen that on England?

Exactly. On England tours, 17 year olds rolling up and balling loopy spin. And that isn't what we can expect to see come the first test match. So I think they've judged it right in the sense that they wouldn't have got a particularly competitive game of cricket out here. I don't think whether they could have been here longer. Listen, maybe some of them could. But you. We look at England's schedule and it doesn't have a lot of slack, a lot of breathing space. So all they have to hope is that this three days that they've got is a good three days.

And I suppose the other point to make is that, and it's one that's been made a lot, is that this is a method that England have used for all of their tours under Stokes and McCullum and in those five overseas trips they've won the first Test on all of them. Actually England start well. It's finishing poorly that has been the problem. I think the thing that made the ears of you and I prick up were when talking about those that have given England criticism on both sides of the Ashes divide, actually Ben Stokes used the term has beens.

He, he did, he said it with a very uncombative sort of phrasing. He, he didn't feel like he was growling it or spitting it out and calling people out. But yeah, I think he was making the gentle point that the days of rolling up here and easing yourself in over the course of six weeks doesn't exist anymore. Nor can it. They probably could have squeezed another, maybe another match in. But whether again, whether they'd have had a full team at their disposal is another matter. So listen, they've got what they think are, give or take, the best 20 odd cricketers available in England right now and, and they think that should be good enough to tune them up.

One thing we didn't get confirmed today are the teams for the game that will start tomorrow at Lykil. I suppose at this point it's important to stress that Lila Kill is, is a public park. It's a club ground. The pitch we're expecting will be very different to what we'll have at Optus Stadium next week. Expecting pace and bounce at Optus Stadium as a club ground at Lilac Hill. It probably be quite slow and low, particularly to, to professionals and, and Used to we thought that maybe we we'd get teams confirmed, that we'd know what the England eleven will be, England in inverted commas and the England Lions 11 will be. That wasn't confirmed. What we do know is that all 16 members of the senior Ashes squad will be involved, supplemented by other players from the Lions. But I think England are still trying to work out what they want to get out of the game and whether or not that means say putting their top seven on one team and putting certain bowlers on another team so they could see, I don't know, Zach Crawley and Ollie Pope facing Joffre Archer and Mark Wood. We'll get that at the toss on Thursday morning. The thing I guess Rory, that most of us will be looking out for are the fitness of someone like Mark Wood, but really the fitness of Ben Stokes. He said that he's been bowling full tilt for two months since that shoulder injury. But and as we'll discuss about the Australians as well, just the fitness of Ben Stokes who has not completed any of England's last four test series because of injuries. The fitness to Ben Stokes seems to hold the key to, well, almost everything we're going to see over the next couple of months.

Yeah, England certainly would not want to go into a test match without him. It's something they've had to learn to do over the last year or so more than they would like. But I think the funny thing with Stokes at the moment is he's rip roaring fit until he's not, which I don't know how helpful that is but when you're looking for a gauge on him, he is tearing around the place he's looking.

I almost want to see him not fit going into a series when he's not rip roaring fit that maybe might look after himself a bit better.

I think the Ben Stokes who scored 100 and took a fivefer immediately before he tore his shoulder, that's the carrot that everyone is out there for and that's seeing him. I don't think I've seen him like that for four or five years pre Covid probably. So if, and we're led to believe he is back to that sort of level already and he's been a regular visitor to the nets at Durham and he's been been hammering in there. I think we can expect him if not in this three day match. I don't know if he'll bust a gut with the ball here next few days but I think he'll be ready to give his absolute all in that First Test, as you say, he's got eight weeks, need to get five matches in.

And on the subject of fitness, further problems for Australia today and we're here in Perth out on the west coast and we've been getting incremental updates from the east coast from the SCG where New South Wales have been taking on Victoria in the Sheffield Shield. Now remember, the Australia captain Pat Cummins is already out of the first test because he's not recovered from a back injury in time. And then today we started to hear about injuries to Josh Hazelwood and Sean Abbott, two other pace bowlers in the squad for the first test. Playing at the SCG for New South Wales. We heard that they didn't emerge after lunch as New South Wales were bowling towards the end of that Victoria second innings hearing that they both had hamstring injuries and that were being assessed. Now coincidentally, Cummins was already due to speak today at pre arranged event. There was an announcement of a new sponsorship deal for Cricket Australia. He was talking about how, how they'd been sent for scans, he thought Hazelwood was okay, that he wasn't sure about Abbott. And then later on we got that confirmation that Hazelwood will be okay to join up with the squad for the first Test. But the Sean Abbott is out. Rory, without being really mean to Sean Abbott because it is cruel that he is out of the squad for the first Test. He's played a lot of white ball cricket for Australia. But this is probably a sigh of relief for Australia, isn't it? That Hazelwood is, is we think going to be okay or is at least fit enough to join in the squad for the first Test? Because not having Cummins and Hazelwood would be a huge blow.

Well, yeah, they talk about having the big three and if you suddenly have the big one, that's an awful lot to ask of Mitchell Stark. As for a sigh of relief, I don't know, it might sound more like an alarm bell because with Cummings going down and we don't know for a fact he'll be fit for the second test. That's a maybe. It's a possible. It does ring a question of will Hazel Wooden Stark, 34, 35. They're not young guys and Hazel always.

Got a patchy fitness record.

Are they actually able to stay up to speed and shoulder the burden and come through fit? We talk about Wood and Archer and Stokes sort of being, are they fit? Are they ready to roll? Well, we know Cummins isn't, you know, we know that Hazelwood is fit to join up with the squad, that's what we know. We don't know for a fact that he's ready to give them 100%. He didn't bat, he didn't finish off the innings. You know, he doesn't have to turn up and roll his arm over. He's got to be absolutely on it and then he's got to play the next one and the next one and the next one. So yeah, it might be, it might be a little bit of a reminder to, to Australia that there's a bit of fragility in their own lineup.

But yeah, looking at that Australia pace bowling picture like you say, Cummins might not be fit for the second Test. We've got question marks over Josh Hazelwood. I guess before we get carried away, it's worth pointing out that Josh Hazelwood play but one Test in the last Ashes. Pat Cummins missed one. So there was a time when neither of them was in the the Australia side during that, that last Ashes Australia still won 4 nil.

We are having a little look at their depth chart though.

We are.

Spencer Johnson's out.

It's a different, it's a different Australia. Morris is out because the big three are older. There are, there are other bowlers missing like you mentioned and we're now only an injury away from Brendan Doggett making his debut. We don't know yet if they're going to call another bowler into the squad. Michael Niesse is playing in this game that we're watching now. Maybe a Fergus o'. Neill. I mean the thing that struck me is that we could have an Ashes series where England are packed with out and out fast bowlers and Australia have some English style seaburs.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, a few bowlers there who've had a bit of time in England recently as well playing probably playing more county cricket than the England bowlers. But yeah, it could go that way. I mean, I think everyone's going to be looking at what the pitches do as well. There's been not amazing scores in the Sheffield Shield. Ball's doing a bit better than bat right now and England, I don't know, maybe the likes of Stuart Broad and Jimmy Anderson are looking and thinking this would have been the Ashes for us. You never know.

Rory, I can't let you go without discussing the thing that has excited me most since I've arrived in Perth. And we're looking at it right now because the Wacker doesn't host men's test cricket anymore. The last time there was a test match in Perth was 20, 17, 18. There wasn't one in Western Australia last time around because of COVID And since I've last been to the Wacker, they have built what I think has got to be a first for world cricket because a way to. We're looking straight at it now. Just over, I don't know, deep mid wicket, beyond the grass bank is a 50 meter swimming pool and what looks like an immense amount of fun in a water slide. Now, you've been to more international cricket grounds than I have. You ever seen anything like that before?

Not sure I have. I've got to say I was surprised you mentioned the 50 meter pool. I felt like you were riding up the slide more than.

Oh yeah, definitely, yeah. I'm not a great swimmer so I want to get down that slide.

I feel like you're going for an hour of lane swimming. But yeah, I mean if they ever fancy bringing the cricket back here, then there's something to do while. While the runs are getting piled up.

Imagine the barmy army over there, it'd be carnage.

They make fun of it in Barbados, don't they, when they've got a chance to get in a pool. So there's about 5U bends there, so bit of something for the lads.

Thank you to Rory Dullard from the Press Association. That's it for the Test match special podcast, the first of the daily episodes we'll have across this Ashes tour. Make sure you're subscribed so you get a notification every time we upload England take the field for the first time tomorrow, that single tour game against the England Lions. Three days it lasts for. We'll have updates from the Game On 5, live coverage on the BBC Sport website, an app and a podcast at the close of play each day. That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time.

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