Big changes for Pakistan ahead of the third Test

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio Five Live.

Welcome to Five Live Cricket. Mark Rampakash and Matt Pryor are with us. Ramesh Rajah will join us a little bit later on when we talk about the. Pakistan side of things after another thumping win for England, and in response to that, in response to that defeat, Pakistan have dropped seven players and changed their coach. So when Ramiz comes on a little bit later on, we'll delve into that. So so Matt and Mark, we'll focus on Pakistan in twenty-five minutes or so. Do you find it difficult to judge where England at because where England are at because of Pakistan's? form, or is that slightly unfair on England, Matt?

Well, I think, I mean, firstly, evening, evening, chappers. I mean, it made me giggle just as you read that out. 7 mid-series, 7 players dropped, the coach racked off. Um, it sort of sums it up. So I think that leads into your next question, can we take this series seriously? Probably, probably not. Uh, you know, if you're dropping 7 players, of which a couple of them are their senior players as well, It seems that Pakistan are in absolute disarray, to say the least. And of course, Rami will talk more about that later. But look, from an England standpoint, and I think actually from a Joe Root standpoint, coming in as taking over as England captain again, you can only play the opposition. I know it's very cliché, but you can only play the opposition in front of you. And they've been ruthless. And one of the things that England teams don't do Or don't do very well, or haven't done very well in the past, is become very ruthless. When you get a team down, you hammer them and hammer them and hammer them again. You don't let them back up. You don't let them back into the game. And when you get an opportunity to win, you take it. And I've loved the ruthlessness of this England cricket team led by Joe. And I think that stands them in good stead. Of course, the Pakistan team have been nowhere. I mean, let's be honest, but you've still got to win. And winning a Test match is not easy.

And I think that's the thing, isn't it, Mark, that it could have drifted a bit, you know, either of the Tests, they could have, you know, relaxed a little bit. But as Matt says, they have been ruthless. They have made sure they've not only beaten them, they've demolished them.

Well, I've got a— good evening, chaps. Good evening, Matty. Yeah, I've got a feeling that that word ruthless wasn't particularly welcome when Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes took over. That wasn't necessarily a word that they wanted to use.

No, it wasn't, was it?

That's exactly right. Yeah.

That's right. And so, look, my overall take on the last 2 Test matches is that England have played in a more grown-up fashion, actually. They've played good, solid Test cricket, and they've done the basics pretty well. I think the Headingley pitch had a bit in it for the seamers, but they played in a sensible fashion. Obviously, the captain got runs. Harry Brook played beautifully. But there were signs here at Lord's on what was a really difficult pitch. I mean, I was present at all 4 days, I'm struggling to remember a game where the ball has moved as prodigiously as that off the seam. It was missing the bat by quite some distance either way off the seam. Very, very difficult conditions. But I felt like I saw really good signs with Jordan Cox applying himself. Dan Lawrence was a little bit unlucky in the first innings to get run out, but he played beautifully in the second innings. And I think that There, to me, when I say grown up, what I mean by that is that there was controlled aggression. They respected the good ball. They understood that there was some good bowling, and they weren't just going to, you know, sort of come out guns blazing. But there were times where, when the ball was in a certain area, they absolutely went after it. And to me, that's adaptable, smart batting. And I think I saw enough of that throughout the game from the England players, which I think is really pleasing. And then, of course, the 4 seamers, they are really interesting because they all present different problems. And they're a handful for any team, and they'll be a handful for any batting side, you know, a lot stronger than Pakistan.

Let's just go back to the pitch, and then we'll come on back to England's bowlers. The batting average in men's Tests this year at Lord's is 16.5, which is the 2nd lowest since 1957. And look, I know Pakistan's batters were very much out of form, but that is ridiculously low, isn't it, Matt?

Oh, I mean, it is, yes, without a shadow of a doubt. But I think it's quite a well-known thing that the Lord's pitch is gone.

Yeah.

The subsurface is gone and it needs relaying. I'm astonished. I mean, look, Lord's is my favourite cricket ground, was my favourite cricket ground. It is the best cricket ground in England. You know, in world cricket, it's astonishing that they've let it almost get to this point. And they really now have a bit of a conundrum because I believe, and I'm no expert from a groundsman, groundskeeping perspective, but I believe it's going to take 3 years to relay the surface. And the problem they have is that the surface, you look at a ground like the Oval, right? They've got about what, 15 ramps? No, they've got about 15 wickets that you could pick from the pitch. The surface is very, very big. So you can relay different surfaces at different times and keep them fresh. Lords, I think there's only 3 surfaces that they use for international cricket because of the alignment with the media center and the cameras for television. And therefore, with the amount of international cricket that's being played, both men's and women's, they don't actually have the time and ability to relay a surface or even you know, grow a drop-in surface and bring that in. So I think there is a huge challenge there for the MCC, for the Lord's ground staff, because this surface is only getting worse. It's not getting better, let's put it that way.

You know the Oval obviously as well as Lord's, Mark. So what would you do?

Well, I think the MCC have come out with a range of action points that they want to investigate. One is, as Matt said and mentioned, the drop-in pitch, which is a lot of what they do in Australia. Again, the problem with that is that you've got to have that pitch somewhere close by, easily transportable. You've got to look after that pitch and make sure that it's in good condition so that when it's transported and laid in for an international match, I'm not quite sure what's involved in that, but that is one of the options the MCC are looking at. A relayed pitch, when I was When I started at Middlesex in 1987, the pitches were uneven. And then around the mid-'90s, they went through a relaying process. Now, normally, it takes about 3 years for a pitch to bed in and become playable for first-class cricket.

Mm-hmm.

Now, they could do one pitch at a time, but that would be very expensive. It's a lot easier to bring the equipment in and do 3 or 4 strips at a time.

We will have to mothball Lord's for 2 years and get this. I know we're talking it might have to be 3 years, but we will have to do this. And it wouldn't be the first national ground stadium in sport that's had to be parked for a couple of years.

I think there are commercial reasons why, you know, Lord's will not want to— they will not want to turn, you know, sort of miss out next year on the Ashes. And I think already hospitality tickets and things like that have already gone on sale. So The interesting thing as well is that I attended the England v India One Day International, where there were just under 800 runs scored in the day in a One Day International.

Yes.

Obviously, a white ball can behave slightly differently, but the pitch looked really good, albeit that I was 150 yards away. But it had even bounce, and a lot of runs were scored, and the batters trusted the bounce. But as I say, there are a number of measures that MCC are looking at. They're looking at bringing outside people in to help get their expertise and input. And there would seem no easy answer to this situation.

Well, no, there isn't. But they just— I don't suppose, Matt, finally on this, I don't want this show every week to me get— for me to keep going, haven't got a men's Ashes Test in the north. But you don't want to keep kicking this can down the road where there are going to be other grounds that will go, well, actually, we could host that Test match, we could host that Test match. Oh, we've lost Matt at the moment. Are you back? No, we've lost Matt at the moment. I'm back, I'm back. Oh, there you are.

Sorry, apologies, I missed the end of that.

You don't want to just keep kicking the can.

I had a gripe about no Test match in the middle.

Yeah, well, obviously. Yeah, as I say, Matt, I'll keep doing that every single week. But I suppose what you don't want to— look, as great a ground as it is, and it's an amazing ground, but you don't want to keep kicking the can down the road if it's going to affect the quality of the product.

You need, you need the best surface that, as you say, the best product, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's particularly next summer with the Ashes. You, you want the best cricket wicket that is going to produce hopefully, preferably, 5 days of outstanding cricket with a result at the end. And that is what, that's what we're looking for. We're looking for a surface that sort of has, has it all, where You know, win the toss, you bat, you know the first hour or 2 on day 1 is going to do a little bit, you get through that, then it sort of flattens out over the next couple of days and then dries out and takes a bit of spin at the end. And it's a really good competition between bat and ball. And ultimately, best man, best team then wins. That is what you're looking for from a surface. Lord's at the moment is not that. It is, as Ram said, you know, as a batsman, you know, you watch. And when international cricketers I'm missing the ball by a foot, a foot and a half. You know that there is far too much. I mean, that's just, it is, you know, ridiculous. And there is too much in the favour of the bowlers.

Let's talk about England's bowlers then. Since being brought back into the England fold, Ollie Robinson can barely put a foot wrong. Player of the match at Lord's after taking 8 wickets. Let's hear from him.

Couldn't be prouder of what I've done the last few months. Coming back into the team after a lot of hard work and Obviously thought my career was sort of done with England, so to come back in and put in these match-winning performances, it's really special.

Yeah, I mean, do you feel you're proving some kind of point in any way? I mean, you know, what's going on in your head? He's running up and taking all these wickets.

I'm just trying to be ultra consistent and just do my job, I suppose. I think in the past maybe got carried away with everything else going on around me, but I think at the moment I'm just trying to focus on doing my job, being ultra consistent. Sometimes the wickets will come to me, sometimes they'll go to other guys, and at the moment they're coming to me. So it's also a great attack to be a part of, I think, with the higher pace that the other guys have got and skill as well. It helps me a lot. I can sort of bowl very defensive, very patient, and that's kind of what I've done my whole career. So it really helps me out as well.

And when times do get hard, which they will, what are you going to take away from your mindset as it Is set at the moment that will help you through that, do you think?

I think just consistency and the skill that I know that I've got. I've got more in my armoury than I'm showing at the moment, I would say. Obviously these pitches—

Really? Are you swinging it both ways? You're nipping it both ways?

But I'm bowling a lot of wobbly seam on these pitches. They're helping a lot. I think on flatter pitches I would swing it more and maybe try and go up and down the gears a little bit to play with the batters and things like that. So the pitches have helped a lot. with sort of how I bowl. Um, but yeah, it's just been amazing to, to get a few wins and play some Test cricket again.

Uh, that was Ollie Robinson. Marcus Driscoll, uh, said afterwards, Matt, we have some real skill. You look back to 2005 and the sorts of comparisons of Harmie, Fred, Simon, and Hoggy, and you could easily make those sorts of comparisons. But I'm just enjoying the fact we've got 4 who are match fit at the moment. Michael Vaughan said in The Telegraph, until they win something in that category, hang on, until this England team wins something, it's all about winning trophies and winning big moments. They're certainly capable of doing something special and winning back the Ashes. It's an attack captains all around the world would think would be a nightmare to face. So it's, they're on the way, but hold your horses.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Um, you know, if we take Ollie Robinson as an example, um, you know, he, he wasn't in the frame. He was playing club cricket in Australia during the Ashes, um, and wasn't deemed good enough for selection. He, he himself admits the surfaces that they've been playing on suit him in particular, ideally. Um, you know, how does he go at Adelaide? How does he go in India? You know, there are very, very different conditions. Now, please don't think I, I'm looking for problems for every solution. It's very, very exciting that we have, you know, 4— and as Tres says, 4 fit bowlers who have a high level of skill, absolutely, and in Robinson in particular, but also great pace in Jofra Archer, um, and, and Tung and Atkinson as well. So I think it's, I think it's really exciting. I genuinely think it's exciting, but I do also agree with Michael Vaughan that this is about setting up for your big series, right? That's what it is, big series. And can you win with a bowling attack when the surface is doing nothing? Can you find a way? It was one of— I know Trezor mentioned the 2005 bowling lineup. I will always, you know, be biased towards the 2010-11 lineup of, you know, sort of Anderson, Broad, Tremlett, Bresnan, Finn, Swan.

Yeah.

The skill of that group was being able to take 20 wickets on very flat surfaces when the ball was doing nothing, whether it was Jimmy finding a way with wobble seam, whether it was perfecting the art of reverse swing and being able to take wickets with reverse swing or getting the ball to reverse swing. A good spinner— I mean, this is, this is a big issue I think still for this team, is, is a quality You know, you look at any high-class team that have won big series, become the top Test team in the world, they have a quality spinner in that armoury. So yes, very, very exciting. As I said, I don't want to be the problem for every solution. Very exciting, the 4 seamers, but it's still early days.

But I suppose if I throw a problem in for every solution as well, Mark, there's, there's an element of they're all fit and they're all firing, but they're all only having to bowl 8 or 10 overs in a quick couple of bursts and the opposition are out. And that is unlikely to be the case on a hot day in Johannesburg or Cape Town or wherever this winter, that they, you know, they could be in the dirt for the whole day. And then if you do think that there are fragile bodies or not, then that's a different level of fitness that they'll require.

Well, fragile bodies and fragile minds as well. No, I completely agree with you. I understand that Mark is his head coach and wants to give his team a lot of confidence, and that's a very flattering comparison. But for me, Jofra Archer is no Steve Harmison, Gus Atkinson is no Simon Jones, and Josh Tongue is no Andrew Flintoff. However, these 4 bowlers, when they are fit, are a really interesting combination because I think they complement each other really, really well. And you're right, right now it's all looking impressive and it's all going England's way on some very bowler-friendly pitches. When we play with the Kookaburra on flat, dry wickets, can Archer bully the South African players? Can Gus Atkinson, if it's not swinging, can he still create problems in his third spell? You know, these are the sorts of questions that the England team will have to answer if they're going to go on and win big series against Australia and India and to, you know, South Africa away. Because to take 20 wickets for England in those types of conditions has always proved a problem.

Yeah, I completely agree with you, Ramson. But what I would add to that is, you know, winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so too is losing. And when you get in the losing habit, it's very difficult to get out of it. But when you're winning, right, it breeds confidence and it gives the individuals comfort, whether it's the bowling unit that will, you know, this England, these 4, we're speaking about them now. They will that will be that will galvanize them. That will that will give a belief to them, not just as individuals, but as a group, as a partnership. As we know, bowling like batting is partnership. And yes, there will be a fresh challenge in South Africa without shadow of a doubt. And can they do that? But at least let's get them on a plane, or at least get themselves on a plane with confidence, with belief that they can go out and bully the South African batsmen. New challenge. But yeah, as I say, go there with belief, with confidence to go and do the job. The only other point I would make is I remember when Peter Moores— you talk about Harmison and Hargreave and that big partnership that they had— when Moores made the decision to drop them for these young lads called Broad and Anderson, they were nowhere. And everyone was like, what is he doing? This bloke has lost his mind. You don't know what Josh Tonge is going to do in the game. You don't know what Atkinson is going to do in the game. They, they need a chance to prove themselves. And yes, these conditions have been bowler-friendly, absolutely. What will they do in South Africa? But they're building confidence, and it's, it's a good thing for English cricket.

So for you both then, and maybe you go first then, Matt, because you, you mentioned the spinner side of things. Obviously you mentioned Swan and, and the, the Harmison, Freddie, Jones, Hoggard, had, had Ashley Giles in it as well. And then Ashley Giles, who could, you know, bolster the lower order a little bit. Where are you looking at spin-wise? Where do you think they are looking at? Obviously, Dan Lawrence kind of has that role at the moment whilst batting at 6. Root could do some overs, as we know. If they bring Bethell back, and Cox moves up to open or Bethel just replaces Cox. I mean, that's a different selection problem, maybe not for today. Are they— do you think they will muddle through with those kind of options, or is there someone out there that means they don't have to muddle through and can still keep the balance?

Well, I think we can go straight to that last point. If there was someone out there that meant they didn't have to muddle it, they'd be in the team now.

Yeah.

I'd suggest. Um, so, so right now I don't see a frontline first-choice spin bowler. And maybe I'm just really old-fashioned, but I think it's really crucial to be able to— particularly 5-day. And I mean, look, again, this comes down to when did England actually last play a 5-day Test match? It's quite, quite old-fashioned that usually Tests are over in 2 and 3 days now. So spinner— the spinner doesn't even get a roll, doesn't even get a go. As you said, the teams are being bowled out before the shine's come off the ball at the moment. But there isn't a frontline spinner. So the options are a batsman that bowls a bit and then you sort of jiggle the batting order around to sort of say, okay, well, Root can do a bit and Lawrence can do a bit. And, you know, Bethel comes back, he does a bit. But that's also high risk because even on the flatter surfaces that aren't spinner-friendly, if you've got a good spinner, he does a really good job. When you're in the field for 50 overs is one thing. When you're in the field for 120, 130, 140 overs, 140, 150 overs, a spinner suddenly becomes pivotal because it's not necessarily about them taking wickets, but it's about them being able to hold up an end, not get smashed left, right, center, going 5 an over, be able to go at 3 an over and give your seamers a rest while they're trying to get the ball reversing or get the ball older or get to the second or third new ball. You know, that's, as I say, Test cricket when you're playing a real longer format. At the minute, these are the things that aren't being challenged because the game or the innings is over so quickly because the conditions are so favorable for the seamers.

Mark?

Well, I was at the Test match England v New Zealand earlier in the summer, and I watched Shoaib Bashir run from fine leg to fine leg. He batted number 11 and didn't bowl. And he was on the Ashes trip. They could have selected him on one occasion at least. They chose not to. And yet they continue to include him in Test match squads. He plays Division 2 Um, so he's not excelling. I think he's improving, um, and, you know, his attitude's good and he's trying hard to improve his game and become more consistent. And I think he has done that, certainly over the last 2, 3 years that he has had that England involvement. But he is learning a little bit on the job. Are there other options? I mean, of course, Dominic Bess is probably a forgotten man. Um, Liam Patterson-White is doing quite good things at Nottinghamshire. I was amazed that Rayan Ahmed actually wasn't included in the 6, however many they picked for this squad against Pakistan. Because if we had played on a relatively dry surface, I wondered whether he, because he's quite a good batsman, whether he could have batted 7 and been a spin option.

Yeah.

And I think that when we go abroad, we're going to have to consider that sort of selection. He's not necessarily a frontline spinner yet. He hasn't bowled enough overs. And of course, as a leg spinner, it's not easy to do that, to get that consistency in first-class cricket. And he also would be learning a little bit on the job. However, he is talented. And I think that given how bare the cupboard is, at least you know if you pick Rayan Ahmed, he's going to contribute to the team. He can get some valuable runs, reasonable fielder, and he could— his leg spin could get wickets.

And you keep the balance, don't you? You keep the balance in the main then.

Yeah, well, one of the things that I always liked about, say, a Liam Dawson is that you know he's going to contribute. He became a very canny spinner, bowled lots of overs very well for Hampshire, limited opportunities with England, but he would contribute. A very good batsman. So, you know, those are the type of people. Graeme Swann obviously is probably the benchmark as someone who got useful runs, caught well at slip, and was obviously a world-class spinner.

And also Liam Dawson hit a 6 to win the Hundred final, didn't he?

Brief that.

Yeah, I just thought I'd throw that in.

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Joe Root, he's been out twice to LBWs in this series. His average for the summer is actually below 30 at the moment. Here is the England captain.

Well, clearly you're always looking to improve and you're always looking to evolve your game and find ways of making it difficult for bowlers to bowl to you. 4 of which I think have been umpire's call, 3 of which have been here in these conditions where it's moving significantly. I think again you've got to look at it from a realistic point of view. Clearly there's a trend there and it's happened a couple of times, but to what extent is it something to be really concerned about? You know, if I was getting out like that and other ways, then that's even more concerning. So of course I'm aware of it. But, you know, I've got 14,000 runs for a reason. Um, you know, I can play and I've managed to get through difficult phases throughout my whole career, and I don't see this as being any different.

I mean, I'm assuming Aggers is holding the mic in that, otherwise if Joe Root had held the mic, he should have just dropped it at the 14,000 Test runs and, and walked off, I think. What, what the trend I suppose that there is, Matt, and, and they haven't just done this to Joe Root, New Zealand did it to You did it to Harry Brook as well, didn't they? I think the wicketkeepers standing up and the difference that makes. But, but also just from your perspective of the sheer skill involved in doing that.

Uh, skill involved as a wicketkeeper?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I look, I, um, I, I watch them and listen to, to commentators or people who have never kept wicket in their life, and, and I, I giggle sometimes because it is so difficult. And I watch it with trepidation because I remember Thinking, oh my God, really? You know, Jimmy Anderson, oh Matt, get your helmet on, come stand up to the stumps. And you're sort of thinking, are you being serious? Like, that's just, that's just not something I want to be doing right now. Um, because, you know, even if the pitch is surf— uh, the, the pitch is slow, you know, the bowler isn't trying any less, right? The ball is still coming down at a pace. And actually, when it's decking around like it has been, the, the, the ability to keep— okay, so, so when you're keeping, I don't want to bore everyone with technique, but the big challenge as a wicketkeeper when you're standing up seamers is about keeping your shoulders very relaxed. You've got to stay very, very relaxed in your top half because the minute your shoulders get tight, your arms get tight and your hands get tight, and that's when you punch, you punch the ball ultimately. So you've got to keep your shoulders really relaxed.

Your shoulders are there because your top half needs to be more relaxed. Yes?

Exactly that. So you've got to, yeah, you've got to keep your shoulders super relaxed, right? And as I say, that's one thing when you've got a spinner bowling at, you know, 50 miles an hour. When you've got a seamer coming down with a longer run-up, your slips are stood, you know, 20 yards back and he's bowling at 80, 81, 82, 83 miles an hour, the ability to back your technique and to be able to stay relaxed is, you know, or the challenge of that goes through the roof. And that was something that watching Jamie Smith, he's really, really improved on. And I thought he did a phenomenal job in standing up, particularly to Ollie Robinson with the ball going all over the place. So yeah, it's a high level of skill, but it's something that is working for not not just England at the moment. Australia did it to Root, or teams have done it to Root. Pakistan doing it to Root at the moment. So it's something that's going to come into the game. You know, my son's— my 17-year-old is actually a wicketkeeper, and he said, Dad, do you think in time keepers are going to stand up to everybody? And I was thinking, hang on a minute, how is that even going to be possible? You know, imagine being called up to stand up to Jofra Archer, for instance. And I thought, you're being a little bit crazy. You had a 17-year-old moment there. But, you know, it is— the game is shifting all the time, and bowlers are having to get smarter in how to get batsmen out, put pressure on them, etc., etc. And a keeper playing a role in it like they are at the moment is very exciting.

Is there any element, just quickly, and I'm sure the answer is no, where you not guess but sort of have to anticipate one second ahead of where you think it might end up? In that situation?

Oh yeah, I mean, you're trying to guess as much as you can, to be honest with you.

Yeah.

Um, look, you, you are watching the bowlers so much that you can tell almost by how they set their wrist if they're going to lose their wrist, if it's going to fly down the leg side. I remember I used to be able to pick Stuart Broad's bouncer before he— as, as he got into his sort of bound, the way he held the ball in his hand was different to his normal ball. So that's the relationship a wicketkeeper has with his bowlers. And the more you play with the same bowlers, you pick up different, different tells. Jimmy Anderson, you could pick his inswinger. By the way, in fact, I probably shouldn't tell because Jimmy's still playing, but he ran up— his run-up was different for his inswinger than it was for his outswinger. And that's how you could tell behind the stumps. Now, if you can pick those little signals up, it gives you A much better chance, but still, even though you you might try and guess and get you you get the odd one wrong as well, right? So yeah, it's it's it's a high level of of skill for sure.

Lancashire's issues stretch further than whether you release some of Jimmy Anderson's secrets at the moment. Trust me on that. Right, let's let's.

It's the same as Sussex Chapas.

Oh my goodness me! At the moment, crikey. Anyhow, right, let's talk Pakistan. Delighted to say Ramiz Raja joins us on Five Live Cricket. The coach has been replaced ahead of the final Test, as well as the assistant coach. 7 players have been dropped, 7 coming into the squad. 5 of them are uncapped at Test level. When you heard all of this, Ramiz, what were your initial reactions?

A lot of shock, and this is not done in cricket, and so Why have they done it? Obviously, they're feeling the heat, but in any circumstances during the series, this has never happened. So Pakistan have actually created a world record, and I'm really, really not happy with the situation.

Why do you think they have done it? Have they panicked, or are they trying to, in some way, send a message to Pakistan cricket fans that they are tough and they won't tolerate this?

It's, it's for the gallery also.

Yeah.

Um, but even then, you know, how many times we've seen this to happen in, in world cricket? Never ever. Um, you know, this is more like football. Midway through the season, you fire the manager. But this is a series that is happening, so they could have easily waited for another 10 days before taking a call, uh, on some of the players. But this is culling of Of some magnitude that I've never ever witnessed before. So I still have to, you know, I'm trying to convince myself that this is all okay, but it is not. It just shows that Pakistan cricket has hit a panic button, and it's not good for the game, not good for the confidence of the players who've come in, not good for the confidence of the players who left, because it makes you a selfish team, it makes you an individualistic team. And what is the guarantee that they will get the results also? You know, some of these guys haven't played Test cricket. I mean, I've got no idea why it was done, you know, this mass culling.

Rameez, hi, good evening. It's Mark Ramprakash here.

Hello, Mark.

Hi, Rameez. Look, I'm fascinated. I was at the Lord's and I got talking to some Pakistan fans and, you know, they were sort of bemoaning the decline of Pakistan cricket. I was trying to think. I mean, look, I think it's incredibly unfair what's happened to these players and the ones who are sent home. I mean, the damage that that would do for their confidence. And also the ones who are playing, you know, they play poorly for one or two games and they get dropped. It's really, really, really tough. But what about underneath, Ramiz? Can you tell us a little bit about the structure of first-class cricket currently in Pakistan and whether it's developing the players or doing the job that it's meant to?

It is not exactly, unfortunately, because so many changes have occurred at the administrative level. So many ways to play first-class cricket has been exercised and executed. And well, they've tried their hand at so many things, but it's just the talent is not there. Maybe it's got to do with the structure, coaching, school cricket, your club cricket. What you see in these performances from Pakistan cricket team is a reflection of what is happening at the lower tier. And unfortunately, you're not seeing a lot of talent coming through. So, I mean, that way Pakistan cricket is handicapped.

And Matt Pryor here. Quick one for me. I think, you know, unfortunately we've been in dressing rooms when things haven't gone well. And, you know, you look at the coach and you look at selectors and you look at everyone else, but ultimately the men in the dressing room are the ones that have to turn it around. And more specifically, the senior players within that dressing room. I've been watching and thinking, where are the senior players? What is happening to them? Why are they not standing up, doing more to try and turn this around? Do you think they've— do you think that you should expect more from them? Um, well, Matt, yeah, I found that quite astonishing.

Yeah, it is astonishing for me as well because I've never seen anything of this kind ever happening on the cricket field. Uh, I mean, obviously you want to win, but you see, what has happened of late is that in the last couple of years Pakistan have lost a lot of wear and tear in the dugout. Uh, it makes you selfish also. You saw, you know, how some of the settled players were playing with the tail. They were getting a single of the first ball and exposing the tail to Joe Fraucher for the next 5. Now, in a healthy environment, that should never happen. But it is happening more and more. It happened in Bangladesh also when Naheed Rana was bowling a really quick spell. And it was Rizwan then who was opting to just take a single and be at the non-strikers in and see the demolition from his end. Little things. I mean, how the tail is playing fast bowling. They're scared. And that sends a very wrong signal to the opposition as well. And some of your senior players, well, they've been asked to leave.

Mm-hmm.

And Babar Azam has got to be the inspiration. But, you know, the way he was dismissed by Jofra Archer, it doesn't send strong signals. So, I mean, it's just a plethora of so many things that has happened. that has gone haywire. And I have no idea, you know, if you ask me frankly, you know, how things can be fixed, I've got no idea. I think the next year or so is going to be as turbulent as the last 2.

As a former chair of the PCB as well, Ramiz, then, and you talk about the environment and this environment that, that where a batter takes a single off the first ball and then exposes the tail. Is it on— where— who takes the lead in changing the environment?

It's the captain. It's the team environment, you see. And you have to work very closely with some of these experienced players because they need a lot of assurance and confidence. I think that the entire DNA was sort of The window because there were so many changes. It's just destroyed the DNA. So certainly you have Babar Azam captaining a side, and then he's removed, and then it's Mohammad Rizwan who's made the captain, and then he gives way to Salman Aliyaga, and then the administration changes as well. So there's a lot of unsettling period that has happened in the last two years, and as we all know that. You know, these are performing artists, so they want, you know, some comfort and some consistency to create that wonderful piece of art. And some of these players have played under a lot of stress, under new managements, under new coaches. And so, I mean, they felt very uneasy. And once, you know, you remove a coach, in this instance, Sirfraz Ahmed is gone, so is his deputy Umar Gul. These are cricketers who have performed so well for Pakistan over the years. But they've been booted out unceremoniously. So I don't know what will happen to the psyche of the team and to the psyche of the ex-cricketers. Who would want another job with Pakistan cricket team if they're not going to be respected?

Final one for me. We've seen the influence of white-ball cricket, franchise cricket around the world, 2020 taking over. And Test cricket, let's be honest, is struggling, right? There's a lot that needs to be done. Where does Test cricket still sit, do you think, within the Pakistani psyche? Do you think it is still the number one? Do you still think it's the holy grail, or are they more focused on the big money franchises, the white ball cricket, T20?

No, it's not the holy grail anymore, unfortunately. You still get a lot of audience for Test cricket, but it's just that if you're not winning, obviously there'll not be a lot of takers. And so The game is struggling in 5-day format. And unfortunately, I don't know. I mean, you know, I am old school, but heroes are made through T20 performances and not through Test performances. But when you come over to England, for example, or to Australia, to South Africa, where you still get full houses, then you realize where you are and why it is so important to continue persisting with Test format. And everybody has to buy in into this psyche. That if you want to become a great cricketer, then it has to be Test cricket. But unfortunately, it's not the case in Pakistan anymore.

Do you think they can get back to being in, in a group with the Big 5, as we've been calling them recently on this, on Five Live Cricket, of England, Australia, India, and South Africa and New Zealand? Do you think they can get back into that group?

I think they can, provided there is stability. Provided there is confidence and provided they're respected. It's not going to be a simple route, it's going to be a tough one. But as long as you think that Test cricket is the way to go to win back fans and to win back respect, then I think there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Can the people that run it be patient enough? And as soon as I heard that news today, it took me back to a quote that I gave from Jason Gillespie when we talked about Pakistan last week on the show, Ramiz, which was—

Yes.

And he, he said when he arrived in, in charge of Pakistan, the PCB wanted something, wanted to develop fast bowlers, they wanted stuff to go in a certain direction. Then they lost a couple of Test matches, new selectors came in, new management, and then they decided that they wanted to play on new pitches and spinning tracks, and that went against that long-term plan. So, yeah, so is— can there be patience within Pakistan cricket for a long-term plan?

Well, they do not have a long-term plan. That is the reason why you see these knee-jerk reactions. And for teams to prosper and become world force, you've got to have a long-term plan, and you've got to have sit-in periods, you've got to have disappointments, but you've got to stick to the players that you've chosen and picked. Right now, what is happening is that you select a team for a tour of England, and then you tell yourself that, look, we made a mistake and we're going to replace, you know, half the team. That can't be right, actually. So you are belittling your intelligence, and that just doesn't work. And look at other teams also, you know, teams go through some rough periods, but they then come through. Only by having a long-term plan, only with patience, and only with people that understand the game and Can have the eye for the talent.

Rameez, thank you very much for being with us this evening. Rameez Raja on Five Live Cricket. I mean, you, me and you, Mark, are a little bit older than Matt, so I'll address this to you. You can't, you know, you can't hark after the past all the time. And in the same way that it's so disappointing with the West Indies when you were brought— when I was brought up on Richards and Grenich and Garner and Walsh and Ambrose and so on and so forth, This is it is it is horrible watching this at the moment when when brought up on Javed Miandad and Imran Khan and Wasim and Waqar and so on and so forth. It is.

Yes, well, I was lucky enough or unlucky enough to play against those guys, and they were they were world-class talents. And and actually more recently, you know, there's still Pakistan have produced world-class talents, but it has fallen off a cliff. And that's why I asked a little bit about the first-class structure. There would seem to be. I think some confusion around how players are brought through and developed. Clearly, the short format has superseded pretty much everything else. Why? Money. Simple as that. And they seem to lack, I think, a structure in and around the short format to keep developing players for the Red Bull challenges, the rigors of Red Bull cricket, which is to produce a good technique and a mindset that can cope to do skills for longer periods of time in Test cricket. Yes, okay, if you're going to play on some spinning tracks, they may win some matches at home. But quite frankly, when they travel away, they're all at sea. Where does Mike Hesson start? He's the coach. He's been brought in. He's got to try and produce some stability, some sort of confidence as a group to try and engender some team spirit. Wow, I don't envy him.

By the way, if we want to cross generations, you should suggest to your 17-year-old Matt whether standing up to Waka would be a good would be a good idea.

Showback to.

I know. Oh, showback to. Yeah, crikey. We're going to talk County Championship to finish. I mean, Matt can go on about Sussex, or I could go on about Lancashire. But in Division One, they're in for a great. finish to the title race. Nottinghamshire, Somerset, and Warwickshire, they're the top 3. Just 8 points separate them. There are 4 rounds of fixtures left. Surrey are in danger of being relegated. They've won just 1 match all season. They're 3rd bottom. They're 3 points above 2nd bottom Leicestershire. Remember, this is Surrey County, who've won 3 of the last 4 titles. Mark Church covers Surrey for BBC Local Radio. What's gone wrong?

Frustrating, I think, would be the word, Mark. Uh, I think we've all got so used— and I think the players have as well— of dominating games of cricket that this season they've, they've got themselves into positions to dominate games, and I think at times they've just assumed it's going to happen, and it hasn't for them. I think the 6 draws sort of tell the story that they haven't been able to take 20 wickets in games. Um, I think the 3 games they've lost, especially Obviously the games against Yorkshire and Glamorgan, uh, they had opportunities to dominate that game. Drop catches cost them in both games. Um, and the game against Nottinghamshire that they lost at home a couple of weeks ago, knocked Nottinghamshire over for 180-odd. And you think, yeah, they've done the job there. They've won the toss on, on pitches, uh, at the Kia Oval this season, which, which are always the same really. There'll be a lot there on day one and then it will get better as the game goes on. Winning the toss is crucial. you have a bowl. They did the first part of the job right against Nottinghamshire, and then the batting didn't do, do the job at all. So I, I think frustration would be the word in the fact that they haven't put the 2 sides of their game together, uh, in the fact that when they bowl well, they haven't batted well. When they bat well, they haven't bowled well. Um, and, and you look at the team and it's still the same team that have won Those championship titles, there isn't any changes there really.

Have they had less demands on their play with England called? I mean, I know they all—

No, not so much. Jamie Smith, Gus Atkinson, they've had Ollie Pope for most of the season, but that's part of Surrey really. You always know there's going to be players there that are going to disappear to play international cricket. Dan Lawrence is playing Test cricket again, which is terrific. Will Jacks has been away playing one-day stuff Sam Curran has until he got his injury. So, so you always know that's going to happen. But it, it, when those players went away in those Championship seasons, sort of players came in and you didn't miss a beat. And the bowling attack was absolutely relentless, which, whichever end they went in with, 4 or 5-man pace attack, there was no let-up whatsoever. Hasn't been like that this season. Dan Warrell's obviously been injured. I think Shaun Abbott would put his hands up as the overseas at the first half of the season and say He didn't really hit his straps at all. I think what we've seen in the last game is they do have a spinner now in Rahul Chahar, who picked up 6 wickets against Essex, uh, leg spinner from India. He can make a massive difference for them. But you're right, you know, you, you look at where Surrey are in the table and it sort of crept up and all of a sudden it's— well, been waiting for them to click, it hasn't happened, and all of a sudden As you say, they're three points above Leicestershire. The only thing in their favour, I think, is—and this might sound a strange way of looking at it—is their last four games are against sides above them: Yorkshire, Sussex, Glamorgan, and Somerset. Now, if they can put it right, and and they're you know they haven't got much time now, but if they could put it right, they'll go up that table because it's so tight. But they got a draw against Essex. Ben Fowkes magnificent hundred on the last day. But again, they were behind the eight ball, and I think it will be frustration. I think they've already signed Henry Crocombe from from Sussex. As Matt will know, this this lad is a real talent. They've signed him to to join Surrey. I think the other thing they have to look at is spin, and and they've got Ralphie Albert, who's a very talented left arm spinner, but he's still learning his game. Obviously, Dan Lawrence has done the job for them, but but he's going to be away with England for a while now. I think they've got to go looking and see who's out there now now. Getting top-quality spinners these days, you know exactly what they're doing. It's not an easy job. But I think also for, for the way the pitches have gone this season, as I say, the pitches get better in South London, and there have been times where not a lot's been happening and you sat there and you thought top-quality spinner at this point would make a massive difference. So I think that's something they'll definitely be looking at for next season.

Mark Ramprakash, so how have you seen it with Surrey?

Well, I was just going to say that, look, I think this is quite healthy in a way. I mean, obviously I don't— I hope that Surrey don't get relegated, obviously. But at the same time, they got off to a tricky start. You know, they played on some flat wickets, couldn't sort of get any momentum. And actually, it then becomes quite hard work. And so it should be. This is Division 1 county cricket. You want the teams to be battling hard. And although they've won 3 championships in the last 4 years, the fact is it's a new season, fresh season, and you have to do it all again and you have to go to the well again. And I think Burns and Sibley perhaps have been a little bit quiet. They lost Ben Folkes for quite some considerable period of time. Look, they managed to make it work in previous seasons. Of course, everyone would love a top-class spinner, but, you know, they don't grow on trees. So in a way, I'm just I just feel that hopefully Surrey will stay up, but it's good that they're finding things quite tough because that's the strength of Division 1.

Yeah, it should be like that quickly, shouldn't it, Matt? Really?

Definitely. I mean, it got to a point, as I say, 3 championships in 4 years. Gareth Batty had done an amazing job. Obviously, Alex Stewart is a legend at the Oval, and what he's done as Director of Cricket has been awesome. But it also shows you that sport is cyclical. You know, you go through these areas where you have a phenomenal patch, you find a way of playing, you find a settled team. And one or two things just change in the dressing room. A player in here, a player out there, a change of captain, whatever it may be. A bit of form, an injury. This is the fine line, the fine margins that you're dealing with in professional sport. And that's what it looks like Surrey are finding out now. I think they've got a couple of young players that are coming through that are outstanding or potentially outstanding young cricketers, but maybe a year too soon for them.

I mean, it'd be refreshing if other sports followed suit, wouldn't it, Mark? Like Arsenal in a relegation battle in 2 or 3 years' time. That'd be refreshing. Yeah. Come on.

Yeah. Look, it's taken us a while to finally get over the I mean, we had 3 second places. Give me, give me a break.

Thank you both. See you soon. Matt Proud, Mark Rabrakash with us on 5 Live Cricket. So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

This is Five Live Sports. It's all eyes to the lights and foot to the floor.

They've all in. It's not his job well.

Everyone standing around the 18th green. Oh, it gets— that is sensational!

He serves to the center and that'll do it!

On the right hand and the former champion is down! It's extraordinary stuff. They've put on a show for us tonight. And he gets on his knees and kisses the turf. Five Live Sports. The home of the world's greatest sporting events. That is the full-time whistle. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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