Big changes for the England Test team?

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This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast. Less than 2 months to go then until England begin their Test summer against New Zealand at Lord's, and by the time when we get there, it'll be nearly 5 months since they trudged off at the SCG having lost the 5th Ashes Test and therefore the series 4-1. We'll look at how we expect the team to line up, who's vulnerable to being dropped, who's ready to step in. Former England wicketkeeper Matt Prior, World Cup winner Alex Hartley, and former England fast bowler Stephen Finn with us for the next 55 minutes. I suppose to start with, and I'll start with you, Alex, alongside me in the studio, It's how many are locked in and how many places are up for grabs. Bearing in mind, we're still 2 months away from the test. So out of an 11, how many are locked in?

I think the majority would be locked in. I think you've got to look at the opening partnership and then you look at the seamers and which ones you're going to rotate. I think we'll see the bulk of them being the same. We might see some other seamers come in. There's always a question on the spinner. Who's the spinner gonna be? It's almost been like, let's try anybody and everybody that fancies giving it a go over the last couple of years. So I think the majority are gonna be locked in, but the opening partnership, there's— everybody's talking about it at the minute, and rightly so. But then I think 3, 4, 5, 6 are pretty much nailed on.

7?

7, I'm sort of thinking Smith. Yes, he's had a bad— oh, had a bad Ashes, but he'd scored so many runs previously. Do they give him another chance? I know he's been dropped from the ODI team, completely different. That for me I would like to see him continue, but you never know.

Matt, how many are locked in for you? Two. Two?

Root and Stokes.

That's it. That's it for me.

No, in all seriousness, I think, you know, you've got to look at, okay, what was the last Test series? The Ashes. You can't tell me you can perform like that and then say there are a number of players locked in, in my view. I, I think there's been so much spoken about the relationship between the England team and county cricket. Well, then you have to go back to county cricket and you have to look at who are the players performing in county cricket. As far as I'm concerned, there are two players locked in. Okay, look, Bethell potentially, if there's an argument there, absolutely. Um, I'm being maybe a bit flippant with, with just Stokes and Root.

Of course you are, but, but actually the point is If the message is— and Ben Stokes said the first 6 or 7 weeks of Championship cricket is going to be a very big one, and people should use that as an opportunity to push their case as far forward as they possibly can— then actually your point is, whilst flippant, is not as ridiculous as it may seem when you first said it if you follow Stokes's messaging.

Exactly that. And that's why I'm saying it. You can't have the England captain make statements like that and then on the other hand think that the team's already been selected bar a couple of spots. If I'm a county cricketer now, actually off the back of that Ashes, you're thinking, oh my goodness, if I winter well and start the season really well, I've got to be knocking on the door. There has to be an opportunity for those players to go and stake their case. And if you do play well, start well, and the stats suggest you're in really good form, then you've got to be kicking the door down, or at least have the opportunity to be kicking the door down, in my view. And as you rightly say, that's what Stokes has suggested.

Steven, for a few years there's been that optimism at this time of the year where, you know, you're sat there in the build-up to the season, you're thinking about pre-season, and that goal is to be named in that first Test match team come the end of May or early June. And, and yeah, that optimism is definitely there this year. And that's through the language that has come out of the, of the report and the findings of the investigation at the end of the Ashes as to what needs to change to make English cricket better and invigorating the domestic competition to provide competition for places in that first Test match of the summer is something that's a, that's a good thing. And that adds pressure. It liberates people to a certain degree because it makes them believe they can play for England. But then those guys that are also on the cusp of it, it adds pressure onto them, and it's an interesting way to see how they deal with that pressure too.

So do you think then, staying with you, Stephen, let's pick, let's pick Harry Brook at 5. Do you think Harry Brook should feel some pressure going, going into the first 2 months of the County Championship season?

I mean, not necessarily, because, you know, he's the player in possession at the moment, even though what happened in Australia, to me, that doesn't threaten his position, um, but the knowledge that there are guys there that if you don't perform over an extended period of time, then there are people there waiting to take your place, that, um, that adds pressure and motivates you. So yeah, I think the first 2 months of the County Championship season aren't going to put enough pressure on Harry Brook to not be picked for that first test, but over a longer period of time, the domestic game producing young players, exciting players, who can bat in that middle order could well do.

I think all faith from the counties was sort of lost last year when— massively, you know, and I just, I just don't see it changing all that much going into that first Test of the summer. I really don't, and I don't know what that is. Maybe it's because I've lost faith in, you know, them watching the county game themselves, the selectors, the captain, and the coach, whatever it may be. But like, speaking to a couple of the directors of cricket, they're just like, well, some of the lads, like, what's the point of even scoring runs? So if people are scoring runs and they're still not going to get picked for that first Test match, like the lads are saying they think they— before I knock that mic off— they think they will. It's going to be really interesting because there's been a lot of people score runs over the first couple of weeks of the season.

I suppose the other question as well would be, who is watching, Matt? Where are they watching? And who actually is going to do the selection? I mean, the ECB are in the process of hiring the new national selector, as well. But where is, where is the scouting and where is the decision-making?

I think that's a really good question because, um, as you say, the— there is Luke Wright somewhere on holiday. Um, they don't have a selector currently. McCollum's in New Zealand. Um, so whoever comes in as selector is going to have quite, quite a job early on. Um, and My, my view is that right now the, the, the people that you want to be talking to as selectors, without the national selector, whoever comes in as national selector, are the directors of cricket, are the head coaches of the counties. It's the Darren Lehmanns of this world that are watching. And even if Northants don't necessarily— I think they do, but don't necessarily have any players due for selection— Darren Lehmann is the kind of guy that you would want to be going and picking his brains. You would want to be going, what are you seeing? You know, what, who, and even not just about individuals in the county game, but what are you seeing in the county game? The intensity, the standard, the quality. Is it good enough? Can we actually select players from county cricket? Is it a high enough standard that we're getting a decent test compared to— because we know the step up to international and Test cricket is massive. We know that. So the players that are going to be selected should be dominated, not just performing well, but dominating county cricket. If we're expecting them to succeed at Test level, they have to be dominating. So you have to be speaking to the coaches and directors of cricket that are seeing these guys not just once or twice, but day in and day out. And that's the conversation I think the ECB need to be having more with, with those, with those people.

And therefore, Steven, should the head coach be here now? Michael Vaughan made his thoughts very— when Rob Key was on this show, I know when it was, 3 or 4 weeks ago, my— one of Michael Vaughan's big points to him was, why is the head coach not over here now talking to people?

Well, as far as I understand it, there was a meeting, wasn't there, between McCullum and Key and, um, and all the directors of cricket, um, to try and make a more collaborative approach to this process that we're talking about here. So Um, it's impossible for someone to go and watch every single game of cricket. There are platforms— I have it on my phone— that I can watch every ball of every game of domestic cricket if I want to. Um, and there is also a network of scouts, as far as I understand it. There is a network of trusted people out there who are watching all of the domestic games firsthand, who then feed their opinions back to, to the central body. So, um, I don't think it's absolutely necessary for a coach to be here Because I think you also have to remember that the relentless nature of international cricket means that these guys have been on the road for 10 months straight. So having a quiet month whilst the IPL is on is no bad thing in my opinion. But I think it might be a bit of a misconception that no one watches domestic cricket. I think there are certainly people out there feeding back. It's just not that well watched.

Do you not think though, Steven, that— and I take the point, everybody needs downtime and time off and seeing their family, and it is a relentless relentless schedule. But if you've had the winter that you've had, if you've made the decisions that you're going to value county cricket and made those statements, shouldn't— do you not sacrifice something this time?

Well, I also don't know when he's due to come over. I don't know if Rob Key shed any light on that.

Uh, I, I didn't— it wasn't that— well, I can't even remember when he came on to be— so trying to remember other snippets is— I don't think it was that long before the first test when he'll be over.

Yeah, I, for me, it's not a huge problem. I reckon for Matt it might be a bit more of a non-negotiable.

Oh, you guessed right, Finny. Absolutely. McCullum jetting in 2 days before the first test doesn't really work for me. I'm with Mark, particularly after the winter they had. Now look, we've all traveled the world and been away from home a long time. I completely get it. I completely get that you need downtime, particularly after the winter they've had, an Ashes winter, a tough Ashes winter, World Cup. Um, you need your downtime. We, we also might be being unfair. Maybe McCullum has plans to be coming in, in the next couple of weeks, um, to, to, to come and watch some county cricket. What the one point I would make is that yes, you— there are people watching county cricket. Absolutely. You have all the stats, all the analysis. You, you can tap into performance directors at the ECB, etc., etc. But when you're selecting a team, if my job's on the line, I want to go and see those players in the flesh. I want to go and see not just how they play. You know, you can stream cricket anywhere right now and you can watch someone play a nice cover drive, but I want to see how they're warming up. I want to see how they're training. I want to see how they walk around the ground, how they hold themselves, the intensity of their work. That's the kind of stuff you can only see live. You know, you can't be told by a performance director— well, you can. You can be told that what they average and how many runs they score.

Great.

But you can't. You can't see how they're, you know, how they're performing and how they're, how they're acting. So that for me would be an important part.

I, I do always think that, that, you know, when you are— it doesn't matter what your job is— when you are actually at a ground as opposed to watching something on television, you spot so many other little things.

Of course. I mean, we, we talk about it when we're, when we're doing commentary on the games. You know, it's so important that you're there because you see more, but it's absolutely no wonder why we're all saying, is anybody actually there watching county cricket? Where are the selectors? Because Stokes picked Bashir off a YouTube clip. So like, you know, he openly said that he watched him on the live stream and was like, this kid's got something. So there's no wonder people are asking the questions. And yes, they might have, you know, feet on the ground and people at the games or people watching the live streams wherever, but the questions are being asked because they've created this monster within itself.

If we look at the opening partnership first of all then of Crawley and Duckett, Stephen, is Duckett safe and Crawley vulnerable? Do they both have points to prove?

Well, look, I think as we've discussed, everyone has a point to prove, um, and it's important that that is the case at this time of the year. Um, but yeah, Ben Duckett has probably got more credit in the bank, you would have to say. Um, But again, who knows what's going to happen. I think that's the exciting thing this year, is, um, is the fact that there has been more of a nod towards domestic performances rewarding people. Um, and both of those guys, after the winters that they had, could do with some runs, I think. So, um, yeah, probably Duckett, you'd say, the more secure of the two. But again, runs hurt no one in this situation.

And the problem for Crawley, actually, Alex, is that he hasn't started the season very well either. So on the one hand, we're judging the winter, on the other hand, we're looking at the county championship, and neither are really pointing in his favor at the moment.

No, they're not. And that's why I guess we're having these conversations about him. And, you know, you feel sorry for him because he's got this opportunity in the lead-up to the English summer— oh, sorry, the international summer— of scoring runs at the county level and saying, look, I am good enough. But the poor bloke keeps getting out in the same ways that he keeps getting out in international cricket, and he's not looked great. And look, he is a class player and he is good enough to play international cricket, but he just hasn't been as of late. You know, when you look at his numbers earlier on, they're much better than they are now. So that's why the questions are being asked. And for me, unless he scores a mountain of runs in the next few games, I just can't see him playing.

He scored 60 in 4 innings so far for Kent. Matt?

Yeah, I mean, it's not a conversation for me. He doesn't play. He could score 1,000 runs before the first test and he still doesn't get in as far as I'm concerned. I mean, the amount of times chances he's had. We've all sat at cricket grounds watching Zak Crawley nick off again to first or second slip and go, why, you know, how has this guy not learned his lessons, gone away? And it is a shame because he does, you know, he is super talented. And that reel of him hitting Cummins through the covers before first ball of the Ashes will play forever, I'm sure. But it needs to be a bit more than that. And I also think that with a slight change— and that's, you know, that might sound a bit harsh and feel like I'm, you know, sort of going at him. But the reality is with a change of culture, or more, if there's going to be a shift away from Bazball, and let's hope and pray there is with regards to Test cricket, then Crawley has to be one of the, one of the guys that goes. Because he, for me, almost epitomized what Bazball was about, where it was like, we're just going to back someone through thick and thin because they might come off every now and again. And as, as an opening batsman in Test cricket and the importance of that role, I don't think you can select someone based on potential, I think you need to start seeing a return. You know, it is so crucial. If you look at, you know, England teams of past— dare I go, dare I go backwards— and you look at the best of all teams, and you look at the opening partnerships, you know, you look at a Strauss and a Cook, and I know the game has changed, of course, but you need a solid foundation. If Root is walking in 2 down for not many, every single Test match. You're not going to win many. Now, bowlers win you the games, but the batsmen set you up. And a key platform to being able to score 400 in any innings is the start, is the first hour when the ball is at its newest, the bowlers are at their freshest. So, you know, you're still going to go with Duckett, I think anyway. You're going to have a Ben Duckett who can take the attack to to the bowling lineup. But Zak Crawley, for me, that he's, he's had so many goes. I think we do have to freshen up.

So when you talk about you can't keep going for potential, are you, are you looking at that in terms of, you know, well, potentially you could score 100, potentially you could get a big score, or are you actually saying slightly bigger picture here I need more experience from whoever is opening alongside Duckett because the names that are being thrown about at the moment are at differing levels of expertise and also differing styles. So the two players who led the run scoring last year in the County Championship are Sibley and Hazeeb Hamid. Both have played for England before, both have had fairly tricky starts to this season, but they have been there before. Or are you looking at one of the young guns who are being thrown around?

So I think that's a really good point, actually. I should clarify because I almost contradicted myself there, where you're saying you're not looking at potential, but actually the people that you want to look at are James Roo and Ben McKinney, who have never played before.

But there's a different—

there's—

you use potential in two different ways. Yeah, exactly.

What I was talking about, Zach Crawley in particular hasn't converted that potential. He was selected based on potential, however many Test matches ago. I mean, how many Test matches has he played now? He's not a, he's not a young man. He should be a senior player within the dressing room consistently scoring runs, not averaging 27. He should be averaging 47 realistically, right? Or even in the 40s or near the 40s. Um, so when we're talking about potential and Zach Crawley, he's had his chance to convert that potential into consistent performance. For me, you are now going back to, right, what is the potential out there? Because the other thing, you've got some very, very exciting prospects. We've got to give them— why are we giving Crawley another chance? Actually, if you're going to play off the potential of Crawley, then give someone else a go with the ability or potential ability to turn that into consistent performance.

So let me give you the names then, Ali. Well, I mean, you could throw other names in, of course, but the ones that are flying around then, I mentioned Hamid and Sibley, but from the young ones then, and some are slightly younger than others, but anyway, James Rua at Somerset, Ben McKinney at Durham, Asa Tribe at Glamorgan, Emilio Gay, who's also at Durham. They are four that are flying around. You may have more, Finney may have more, Matt may have more.

I had those four and I had a really rogue shout of Tom Abel, right? If, if you're desperate, but I don't think England are in a position of being desperate. He has opened for Somerset in the past and I wouldn't pick him, but there's another name for you. I had those four as well. I think for me, uh, starts with, um, James Roo, then Emilio Gay, and then you go down that, down the list for me.

Okay, even though neither of those two are opening.

Yeah, I know, I know. And that's the, and that's the 'Cause then this is the— That's the potential.

Then this is the next kind of pickle we get ourselves in.

Because when you look at the openers, like you just said, you look at Sibley and you look at Hamid, who I think I can't go summer watching Dom Sibley bat for England, I'm really sorry, I can't. It's just one of those, for me it feels like taking a massive step backwards.

Finney.

Yeah, another one I'd add to that list is Tom Haynes at Sussex, who hasn't had a brilliant start to the season. Averaging 28, but he's someone who, um, is an opening batter. And I think for me, that's a very important aspect of it, especially given that we're going to be playing in England this summer for 6 or 7 Test matches. Opening the batting is a specialist position. I don't think it's easy to just lob someone up there and hope that they score runs, even though the standard of pitches is slightly better in international cricket than domestic cricket. The ball still zips around far more. And if we're talking about throwing people in for an international day view, batting them out of position at the top of the order wouldn't be the way to go. For me, you just have to cast your mind back about 18 months to Dan Lawrence playing against Sri Lanka at the Oval. Um, a middle-order batter was sent up to the top of the order, didn't score any runs, looked unconvincing, and hasn't been seen in an England shirt since. And you have to be very careful that these talented guys that we're talking about— um, Gay, who does bat in the top 3, um, Roo, who has been moved up to the top 3, I think to try and expose him to that newer ball a little bit more in domestic cricket. I still think opening is a really specialist position, and I'd be wary of selecting someone who's not got a big bank of experience to do so.

Because then the problem, Finney, as well, is that the ECB or England management might then say to a county, could you bump them up? But bearing in mind that relationship over, over recent years. I, you know, I would imagine there would be several people tempted to tell them where to go. Interestingly, Somerset's head coach Jason Kerr on Roo said, it is in my head for him to open, but we have to do what is right for the team. But also what I don't want to do is compromise his opportunity of playing for England. He's got to score a volume of runs, and that's what he's doing. The thing to recognize is the way he's doing it. Could he do it at the top of the order for England? Absolutely. But again, this is, this is the dilemma, isn't it?

Well, it's a delicate balance, isn't it? And I think that's where a strengthening of the relationship between counties and the ECB will allow those conversations to happen more openly, as opposed to it feeling as though a directive is coming down from the ECB that he has to open. That conversation then turns into a conversation where there are debates respected and heard from both avenues. And I think that that's an important relationship that the ECB— and I think that was reflected in the findings of the report— that the ECB needs to work on that relationship between the counties and the governing body. But yeah, I would just be very wary of throwing someone in at the top of the order because it is the toughest place to bat.

I mean, Stefan Schemmel, Alex, actually wrote a piece on James Reid for the BBC Sport website. So that's there now. He mentions the Australians and how often they talk about just picking the best players first and then worrying about the order later.

I, I, yeah, I mean, look at Travis Head, for example, where, you know, he was like, I'll do it, I'll go up the top, and he's flourished, hasn't he? But it's a risk, and you might get that reward, you might not. But I completely understand Finney's point of you actually don't want to ruin someone's career by lobbing them up the top of the order and then going, well, I'm out of position. And James Roo will bat wherever he is required for England, whether it be 1 or 9, he'd be like, yes, absolutely. Of course, anybody would. But I think sometimes, on the opposite to Finney, I think sometimes it can be worth that punt when you look at someone like Travis Head who's been so successful from it.

Can I just say, I think the argument that Australia do it is a weak one because historically the pitches are a lot, lot flatter and the ball does a lot less. The Kookaburra ball does a lot less when you go out there. It's about in the first 20 overs, I think it behaves more like a one-day match. So that's why it's been easier for Australia to to throw people up and just play their, their best top 6 batters. But this Ashes series notwithstanding, with Travis Head going up there, um, Steve Smith the year before went up and scored absolutely none, and he's one of the greatest batters of our generation, if not of all time. And he averaged about 10 opening the batting for Australia and then went back down into the middle order because the pitches in Australia have done a little bit more in the last couple of years. So I think that's fine in Australia in the mid-2010s and before that you can do that, but for me opening the batting against the Duke's ball in England is a specialist role.

Also, also then, Matt, and obviously you're a very good person to come to this, we've got James Roo batting 3 or 4 for Somerset and keeping wicket, but if he was coming, if he's going to come into the England team He's unlikely to keep wicket because of Jamie Smith and maybe he's got a bit of credit in the bank. He would then bat 7, but he's batting higher up for Surrey and he's not keeping wicket for Surrey, but he would keep wicket for England. I mean, just that sort of 3 sentences I've come up with highlight the muddle at times.

England cricket's in a great spot.

I mean, it's just— it, it, I mean, it doesn't half mess with your head.

I was talking to someone earlier and they said exactly what you said, oh, you'll be a great person to comment on this. And I think, I have no idea what to say here, what, just because I used to catch a ball? Um, you know, it's, it's a madness. It's an absolute madness. You've got the England Test keeper not keeping for his county, and a strong argument with Ben Foulkes, the one who is keeping his county Oh well, actually, should he be playing? Should he be keeping for England? And then, you know, James Roo, who's obviously a superstar in the making, um, we're talking about opening the batting but could keep. It is, it is a muddle. It's an absolute muddle. But one, one point I'd like to pick up on is, is exactly that, though. Again, coming back to the relationship with the counties, it actually— this needs to be galvanized in so many areas because The ECB obviously have a responsibility to the game as a whole and managing and looking after the counties, and they obviously give them a lot of money per year, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's not a bribe, obviously. But there needs to be a collaborative effort because one of the responsibilities surely the counties have is producing, for that money or in a return, is producing England Test and international cricketers. Playing in the right places that actually England need. So there has to be— yes, the county directors of cricket, etc., are going to want to look after their, their teams, but there has to also be a greater, a greater good of the individual. Not only just the individual's, uh, performance is potential, but, but, but also being able to select the strongest England Test team that are going to go and win games of cricket, because that is only good for the whole game in this country.

And actually, Steven, my point in some of this is not to hammer England in many ways. It's more to highlight the ridiculous situation that we seem to have got ourselves in with cricket structure in general. Because then you add one further thing on here with England's batting lineup is that Aside from Root, the biggest positive of their winter and going into white ball tournaments was Jacob Bethell. Where's Bethell? In the IPL. What's he doing in the IPL? Nothing. He hasn't played yet, has he? And so you've got, we want an emphasis on county cricket. Our big discovery of the winter and onwards is an in-county cricketer, but he's in the IPL, but he's not playing. I mean, I genuinely at times, I don't know how anybody navigates this.

Well, the game's consuming itself to a certain degree, isn't it? Because the power is so firmly with the players right now. When me and Matt played, when we had central contracts with England, we were told what was happening if we wanted to go and play in the IPL I a number of times asked to go into the IPL auction and I was told, no, you have to play 4 out of the first 6 Championship games to put your name in the hat for selection for England. And at the time, the way for us to look after our future, for our families, whatever, was to play as many Test matches as you possibly could for England. That was, that was the, the best way to make a living. Now Guys have so many different options, and the IPL is so lucrative now. Forcing Jacob Bethell to come home and forego whatever he's gone for in the IPL auction— I'm not that familiar with it— would be a massive risky call for whoever makes that decision. So yeah, the players have the power, and that's why Bethell finds himself in that situation.

On the other hand though, he did it last year, came back, scored runs, and was this wonder boy that the ECB spoke about that they saw potential no one else ever had. So maybe they've gone, well, it worked last year, so go and do it again.

You just want him to play though.

Yeah, of course you do. Of course you want him to play. You want him to play and show everybody that potential. You know, I'd love for him to be playing for Warwickshire and scoring loads of runs, and you go, right, we've got another one that's nailed on for the summer.

I tell you what though, Finny, if you'd gone in the IPL auction, you wouldn't be sitting with me on a Monday night, would you?

Well, do you know what, chappers, I take such joy from sitting with you on a Monday night, but I'd have done it anyway. I'd have paid you for the pleasure, chappers.

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Just back to— we're going to talk a little bit more about the IPL in just a moment, but do you— would you think, Matt, that Jacob Bethell could— I mean, Alex mentioned what he did last year— just come straight back here and get going again?

Yeah, well, I mean, yes, as both Alex and Finney have said, it's sort of the modern player now. I think Bethal, um, is going to have to get used to pretty quickly changing formats, you know, land, get rid of the blue pads, get the white pads out, get your dusty whites off, get change of kit.

And he's using gold ones in India, man.

Gold ones, is it? Yeah, of course, why wouldn't it be in the IPL? Yeah, and off you go. And I think there are players that are sort of well-versed in that now. Bethel's obviously, you know, still very young, but looks, you know, all the signs are he has the temperament and the technique to be able to do that. So Bethel for me actually isn't one of our concerns because he does look like he has what it takes to be able to perform at, you know, obviously at the highest level, but also be able to switch formats quite quite quickly and keep performing. I think there are, there are other issues, many of them I'll discuss.

Yeah, well, we'll come back to the bowlers in just a moment. We'll just touch on the IPL. Broadcaster and former IPL player Abhishek Jhunjhunwala joins us now, just on Bethel. Why hasn't he been playing, Abhishek?

I think they need to change the rules and make it 5 overs if you want to fit Jacob Bethel in at the moment, or they'll have to get rid of Phil Salt and the current form he's in, I think that's a very hard call for RCB. We all, we all know that what a class player Jacob Bethell is, and he's going to have a long, long future in the IPL. It's just the team combination, unfortunately, and then the restriction with international players.

So there's a reason they're only allowed 4 overseas players, and RCB have, have Salt, Shepherd, Tim David, and Josh Hazlewood. They're their regular 4, are they?

Yeah, I think so. And also the issue is, because if, if Jacob has to play, he has to bat in the top 4. And you look at RCB's top 4, it's Phil Salt, Virat Kohli, Padikkal, and Rajat Patidar. I just don't see any one of them getting dropped in the current form. And also then the issue is 4 overseas. And with Romario Shepherd, they just bring in that extra bit of power after Tim David at number 7 and 8, and he can chuck in with a couple of overs as well if needed. So I think because of the team combination, Jacob Bethell is really struggling to make, make it to the 11.

He's not the only overseas player that isn't featuring though, is he? Will that— do you think that may become an issue going forward for overseas players if they think, you know, well, you know, for one of 6 overseas players or whatever, we, we aren't going to get a look in? Or will, will the financial rewards just outweigh that?

I think the financial reward outweighs, and also the new rules which BCCI has put in place with if you, if you get picked and you don't come, you're banned for 2 years. And I think they're going to extend that ban to 4 years in the next couple of years if they see too many players dropping out. So that's one of the main concerns. And, and if you've got that, if you've sold for half a million and you can make that half a million somewhere else in this 2 months, then yes, you might as well go out and drop out from the IPL. But there is no cricket being played in that 2 months. So you might as well take the money, I guess.

Wow. So is that— so, so they might extend the ban from 2 to 4 years?

I mean, it could happen because, I mean, there have been suggestions by former players that if players are not playing after getting picked, 2-year ban is not enough. So I wouldn't be surprised if that's been extended in the next few years.

How, how was the, uh, I'll be— I've sort of dipped in and out so far of the IPL because it does go on for a long time, so you can, uh, you can do that. Is it, um Has it been less? We went through a period, didn't we, last season where there were some ridiculous, ridiculously high scores. Has that calmed down a bit?

Not really. We saw 250 yesterday. So the scores is even getting more and more. I mean, teams are getting 200 more often than they did, than they ever did. And the scoring rates are a bit ridiculous. The bowlers are going, the fast bowlers are going over 10 and over. Pretty much every game. And, and the power play scores, which used to be around that 50-55 mark, is going around 75. So there has been a massive shift. I think there's been a 20-run difference from the previous season, this year's IPL. So the batters are having a great time at the moment, it seems like.

I looked at the scores yesterday and one of the teams got 180. I thought, well, it's not enough, is it? 180, because you look at the scores and everybody's scoring 200. 200 is the norm, and this is the first year of many, many years that I've sort of, a bit like you chappers, I've dipped in and out because the 200 now for me and 250, it's getting a bit boring. There's nothing in it for the bowlers, it's just batters.

Well, you need variety, don't you?

Yeah, so yeah, 200 is just like a par score.

Yeah, and every time I sort of check in, the 15-year-old, 15 is he now? Is he 15? Abhishek?

Yeah, I think so. Officially, yes.

Yeah, he seems to be scoring like a 50 off 12 balls or something whenever I, whenever I dip in as well.

Yeah, I think, to be honest, I've never seen a tournament where that many 50s been scored under 14 or 15 balls. Every, pretty much every innings you see somebody going out there and getting a 50 off 15 or 16 balls, which is just ridiculous.

Who are the favorites at the moment?

I would say I would We went with— I went with Punjab at the start of the season. I think they're looking very good. RCB again looking very, very strong. If Jacob Bethell is not making a playing XI, there has to be a strong side, isn't it?

Yeah, yes, it probably does. Abhishek, thank you very much for joining us. Abhishek Jujunwala with us, touching on Jacob Bethell not featuring in the IPL and what's going on there at the moment. Stephen Finn, when you look at the pace bowlers then, back to England and how they line up in the summer, How many places are up for grabs? All of them?

Well, yeah, because the fitness is, is a huge part of fast bowling, isn't it? Um, I think we're going to touch on the, the injury replacements later in the program in the, um, County Championship. But, um, yeah, finding the fit bowlers will be important come the beginning of June at the, um, at the end of this, um, this first block of 4-day fixtures. But But you'd say on the winter performances, Josh Tung is probably nailed on.

He—

I thought he bowled really well in Australia. He bowled with pace, movement. He kept coming. He was part of the win, wasn't he, in Melbourne as well? So he was impressive over the winter. But then it really is an open door. And the thing that's really exciting for me, a few of the younger bowlers out there that have made their mark on the domestic game. This year so far. Alfie Ogbourne at Somerset, he hasn't taken the wickets, but he's a left-armer, he looks quick, he hits the track hard. He's someone to keep an eye on. Eddie Jack at Hampshire, Nav Sharma at Middlesex. These guys are slightly quirky, slightly different bowlers, but they look as though they have the attributes that it takes to play international cricket. Now, I'm not saying they should be playing these first Test matches, by no means, but the exciting thing now is with hopefully the olive branch extended from the ECB to the counties, it motivates these young guys to, to go out there and put their best foot forward.

Do they need to find a leader of this attack? Do you think that's important? There's no Anderson, no Broad, and it hasn't been for a little bit. So, so I don't want to go back over old ground, but actually there's no wokes either now who would have taken that role, certainly within an English summer.

Well, you think about Joffre Archer and Mark Wood, you can't promise that they're going to be fit for a whole summer, can you? So you think of leading attack, you would think of Joffre Archer being the leader of that attack. We don't know if he's going to be fit for the whole summer, how many Test matches he's going to be able to play with the rest and rotation. Mark Wood as well. I mean, I look at somebody like Ollie Robb. Does he really— does he need to hold out that olive branch? Ollie Robinson, sorry. And just say to Brendan McCullum, I'm really, really sorry for the past. Can we move on? I mean, you've got to take wickets, you've got to bowl well. But when he was playing for England, I mean, he was brilliant. You thought he would lead the attack for a while.

He spoke to The Athletic actually, Ollie Robinson, and Steve James wrote an article today saying England really ought to be looking at him again. But Robinson wrote, or said to The Athletic, I've not done myself any favors either. The door has probably felt closed to me ever since that India tour. I can blame the England setup for not picking me, but I haven't taken the wickets that I had when I was selected the first time round. It's up to me to knock the door down by taking wickets. If you do that now, I think they will pick you. Does that sound fair enough, Matt?

Yeah, I saw that comment when he made it, and, and actually that's the major shift for me, and what actually— and why Ollie Robinson puts himself back into, to the light potentially, and, and available for selection. Because I think there were some concerns around attitude and training, and, and, you know, if, if a player is owning that— I think Duckett said something similar about himself, that actually he needs to go back, look in the mirror, and get back to the— not just the training ground, but the gym. Get fit, get strong, and really put performances in, earn the right to play cricket for England, which it is. It's an absolute honor, and you know, you have to earn the right. So those comments, you know, Ollie Robinson is a quality bowler. He's a fine bowler when he gets it right and when he's on song. So if that's his attitude going into the season then, you know, I think he's a really good chance. I was going to say, Finney, just very quickly, have you seen this young lad up at Lancashire?

He's taken 21 wickets.

He's dyed his hair recently, he's looking younger.

21 wickets at an average of 12, Matt. You said 21 wickets, average of 12.

He sounds impressive, that youngster. He's got rid of the greys, it's brilliant.

And that joke will forever be a joke until England find a proper bowling attack.

But Robinson would have both a point to prove, I suppose, Steven, and come back with, I don't know, greater wisdom, greater humility. I mean, you pick how you want to describe it.

Yeah, well, he's a class bowler. His numbers speak for themselves, but I think Matt's right there. And it's great that Ollie's acknowledged the fact that it's backed up performances that will make it, um, very difficult for people to be ignored at this time of year, especially someone with the record that he has.

Does the, does the focus now come off pure pace for you? Because that, that for quite a long time leading up to the Ashes seemed to be what it was all about. And then actually that didn't necessarily work, did it?

Yeah, no, it didn't, clearly. Um, and actually the pitches down there didn't suit just out-and-out pace. I think when you look back at the beginning of the McCullum and Stokes era of playing together in 2022, they picked the best 11 players. So they recalled Broad, they recalled Anderson, who were on the outer then, and they said, you guys are our best bowlers, the most likely to take wickets. 'And we're going to play you.' And that won them Test matches, it won them affection of the public in that first summer. And that will be something that I'd imagine that they'll be looking to, to recapture here. So, um, yeah, it is a— it's going to be a really interesting, um, first few weeks of the season, as we've said. Um, and one more thing, I would also say that you want to fulfill roles within a bowling attack, so When I played for England, I was the bowler that could bring it back into right-handers and across lefties. That was something different to what Stuart Broad did, who at the time swung it away, and then James Anderson with his amazing skills. So you want an attack that complements each other. Going all pace or all swingy seamers, I don't think works. You want that diversity of bowlers, and that's going to be the challenge.

Now, next week we're going to do a spin bowling special. Where do England go here? Where? Alex?

Oh, there's so many options, isn't there? Do they stick with Will Jacks for his part-time offspin? They've got Jacob Bethell with his as well, bit Joe Root. Do they look at Rayan Ahmed? Do they go back to Jack Leach? I loved Liam Dawson. Um, I say there are so many options. When you look at England white ball cricket, there are so many options in the spin department when it comes to white ball cricket. But when it comes to Test match cricket, everyone goes, where are they? Or who's next? Um, so I mean, do they go back to Bashir? I mean, it feels like he sort of— they really lost confidence with him in the Ashes and those games that he played for the Lions. He sort of bowled himself out of selection. He didn't bowl well at all. He bowled for the Lions and he bowled for England trying to get himself some rhythm, and he just couldn't. Um, in— I'm sitting on the fence, chappers, because I've got no idea where England are gonna go.

Where do you go with the spinners, Matt?

I'm gonna throw it, I'm gonna throw a name in the hat, and maybe I'm biased because he's down, he's down my way, right? Jack Carson.

Okay.

Um, he, young, young lad, I've seen him for, for many years. He spins it, he actually turned— can you believe it in this day and age?

No way.

Yeah, who, who knew, right?

Who knew?

It was one of Graham Swan's big things about when white ball cricket in 2020 and franchise came in. He said spinners are stopping trying to spin it, they're just coming in bowling darts, getting in there over again, out there over, hoping they don't go for too many sixes, and that's it. But they've actually stopped the art of flight and guile and actually trying to drift it, hit the pitch and spin it. Carson is that type of bowler. He gives it a good— he gives it a good rip. His stats are pretty good, you know, for a spinner in England, averaging under, you know, just over 30, 7-5 wicket hauls, a 10-wicket haul as well. And the other thing I like about him, he's got a bit about him. He's, you know, he gets up in the batsman's face. And I think again, bowling spin, you've got to, you've got to have a level of it, you know. Everyone expects him from the fast bowlers, but you, you look at the great, you know, Shane Warne, you knew you were in a battle, you knew. And okay, he was genius, right? But the mental side of it, you knew. And I know that when particularly left-handers came out against Graeme Swann, they knew he, he was on them straight away from ball one. There was a presence about his bowling. There was some sort of mystery And it also helped when Nasser, you know, did this whole thing on Swanee's different delivery style, which actually just meant the ball hit the seam or didn't and slid on. But Swanee went with it, right? There's all this like mystique and intrigue. And I think that's the important thing about spin bowling is you have to have that. Now, the other issue is that we've got young spinners, and a little bit like wicketkeepers, you definitely get better with age. You have to know your game and you have to bowl over upon, over upon, over. You've got to remember Graham Swan, who I, I think is the best spinner England's ever had. He came in the Test side when he was young, got chewed up and spat out, and went and did time at county cricket and came back when he was, you know, 30-odd and really, really understood his game. And that's where, for me, Carson, yes, still young, but he's played quite a lot of cricket. He knows his game quite well. So that— I'm throwing that in the hat.

Do you know what, really I've just had a little look there, you know, he is young but he's not 20, is he? He's 25. He's gonna captain Sussex in the 50-over team this season, so he's not wet behind the ears.

No, exactly that, and I know that he's very, very well respected within, as a leader within that group. So he's got, that's what I'm talking about, he's got the mentality, he's got a bit of front about him, you know, he's not a shrinking violet who's gonna walk out in a Test arena and sort of think, oh my God, you know, yip up a little bit. Because, you know, bowling spin is a really tough craft, especially for a young lad when you're walking out. And everyone, let's face it, batsmen now, the minute the spinner comes on, you lick your lips and kind of go, right, I'm having a go here, I've got to hit this guy out the attack. So you do have to have a mentality about you. And I think that's where Carsten certainly has got the right attitude.

Let's move away from the fight for England places and just do substitutes in the County Championship, which has been—

You've not left enough time.

Well, I know, honestly, I could have done about 20 minutes on this. I mean, it's been chaotic, Steven, bizarre.

Yeah, it's not really cricket, is it? It's been, elements of it I think are fine. We're replacing a player because something serious has happened in their life, or, um, something major. Um, concussion obviously has been a substitution replacement for, for quite some time now because of the serious nature of it. But, um, for me, playing 4-day cricket, 5-day cricket, um, it's a, it's a test of your body, it's a test of fatigue. If you as a bowler get tired and you ping a hamstring halfway through day 4, um, and you're bowling to win the game, or whatever the situation might be, there should be no circumstances that you are then allowed to just parachute an absolutely fresh as a daisy bowler into the match halfway through the 4th day and say, knock yourself out, mate, bowl 20 overs on the spin. It doesn't, it doesn't work for me, that element of it.

No. And that The problem when rules like this are introduced, Alex, is that immediately people look for loopholes and some can exploit loopholes, but then to try and stop loopholes being exploited, you then end up with some ridiculous situations. So the replacement has to be like for like. So for example, if an all-rounder replaces a batter, they're not allowed to bowl. Somerset got involved in some very bizarre things where they had to replace an opener, but it wasn't an opener, but then they couldn't open, or it was something like that. Then Lancashire had to replace their bowler, Ajit Singh.

With 2 bowlers on the bench.

Yeah, so they had to replace Ajit Singh Dale. They had 2 bowlers there, but Tom Bailey was deemed by the match referee to be more experienced than Ajit Singh Dale.

So they brought in a left-arm seamer, not even the same.

So not even the same, but the left-arm seamer, Ollie Sutton, was playing for the second team in Leicestershire. So he had to drive across the country, like 200 miles from Leicester to Gloucester to play, was it Gloucester? Oh no, was it Kent?

No, they were playing at Gloucestershire.

So he had to do, I mean.

It's been laughable, hasn't it? I mean, the fact you've got a right-arm seamer go down, you've got a right-arm seamer on the bench. Yes, he is more experienced. He's not as quick as Ajit Singhdale. But you've then, I know you can't have another right-arm seamer, but you can have a fresh as a daisy young left-arm seamer. I mean, that makes no sense. My favorite thing of the County Championship this year has been what injury, or injury, is happening this week and what replacements are going down. I mean, I, I'm not having a bowler being replaced because they've got a stomach bug.

Would you scrap it, Matt?

Well, it's, I mean, it's comical, right? It literally, it literally is common.

Yeah.

And I'm trying to sort of give a serious answer here because, because actually, if, if we've been really you know, cutting about it. You talk about respecting county cricket, you talk about the relationship with the ECB and county cricket, you talk about making sure that players are given the best opportunity, best foot forward, making sure the standard of county cricket is high enough that we can produce Test cricketers, and then you come up with something like this and you sort of test it out to sort of give it a bit of a crack. Well, that's a real contradiction because are you then respecting county cricket and what these guys are doing, it makes it a bit laughable. I— look, if you're going to stick with it, I would actually change it completely. Take the gray area out, and instead of it being an injury replacement, just call it what it is and make it strategic and say, okay, we're going to go with substitutes, a bit like they've got in the IPL. What have you got, sort of 4 subs or whatever, or 2? But it's a, it's a strategic move, and you, you, your squad is suddenly, you know, 14 or 15. You've got a few guys sat on the bench, and if suddenly the foothold's on, you know, to the left-hand, and you've got a little left arm tweaker in, in your squad, how important does the toss become?

Oh, well, exactly.

But, but actually, you, you start thinking about that as a, as a strategy. It, it could, it could be quite exciting if you're going to do that. But, but let's not, you know, this injury sort of side of things, because, and also what I want to know is like, so who, who called, like, what is a serious injury? Do you Do you need to see the scan? Do you need to see the X-ray? Or can a raw prawn sort of put you out? You sort of claim that you've got a bit of food poisoning.

I think that's happened.

No, you're kidding. You see, I could— you see, this was something we could have done 20 minutes on easily, but we have to end on a raw prawn. Matt, Alex, Stephen, thank you very much. Remind you, you can hear ball-by-ball commentary of every County Championship match and every substitution on the BBC Sport website.

BBC Women's Football Weekly, the latest news, insights, and analysis from across the women's game.

Dame Serena Viegman, welcome to the—

are we including Dame in your title now?

You know how much an honor That is remarkable. You want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup, it's a dream.

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