Broad & Anderson immortalised in the Long Room at Lord's

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This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Now, there's a lovely occasion in the Long Room at Lords. It's the unveiling of a double portrait of England's iconic bowling partnership of Sir James Anderson and Stuart Broad. Now, the portrait is painted by the award-winning British artist Jamie Routley. Hoping I'll be speaking to him in a few minutes' time. And it's the first double portrait commissioned by the MCC as part of the Lord's Portrait Programme. Well, Broad and Anderson, of course, are the top 2 Test wicket-takers at Lord's. Anderson taking 123 in 29 matches and Broad 113 in 28 games here. Anderson features on the famous honours board 7 times while Broad is on both the bowling and the batting. So I spoke with them both last night. Firstly, Stuart, on his reaction to seeing the portrait for the first time.

Overwhelmed actually, yeah, really, really special. Jamie, the artist, done a wonderful job. We, we talked to him at length actually about what he— his vision was and what our vision was and I think both Jimmy and I agreed we'd liked it quite traditional, almost stand the test of time, you know, not sponsors on the shirt, etc. And he's done a wonderful job. Yeah, came in today having not seen it. So there's a few nerves. I said to Jimmy just before we went up, a bit nervous here, you know, I don't know how to react. But yeah, really special. And, you know, ultimately, we haven't played the game to— with a mission to end up with a portrait in the Long Room. But actually, with the time we've been in the game, it's a really nice moment to sit back, reflect, and go, wow, that's, that's really special.

Yeah.

How'd you feel, Jimmy, when that curtain came down?

Again, I was nervous, like Stuart said, um, but I think we'd spent enough time with Jamie to know that he'd do a good job. Um, and yeah, it's just still surreal, still sinking in, like the feeling of the amount of times we've been to Lord's and played here and walked through, uh, or down the stairs from the home dressing room, seeing all the captains on the, on the wall, walking through the long room, and generally it is captains. So again, it feels like special because we never captained England in Test cricket. Um, so to see that on the wall, um, with some of the other incredible, uh, portraits up there is just, you know, it still doesn't Doesn't seem real.

No.

And it must be very special here for you, Jimmy. Young lad, red streak in your hair, making your debut, getting the wickets against Zimbabwe. I mean, you never even thought in a million years that it would end up like this.

No, I remember that week actually making my debut and looking at the— because some of the portraits here are fairly old and they've got little plaques on the bottom and you're reading the plaques to see who it is and what it was. What's that moment they've captured? So I think to know that that's going to be there long after we've gone is, again, just an incredible thing to have. You know, the fact that our careers have been good enough to allow that to happen is incredible. And we're grateful to the MCC, Mark Nicholas, Emma John as well, who's on the committee for commissioning that portrait because, you know, it's such a special thing and not many people get the honour of having one. No.

I love your sweater in it, Stuart. There's a story behind that, isn't it? I mean, it just stands out as being completely different.

Yeah, so it's my dad's sweater, England sweater from, you know, '84, '85, '86. It's got the different crown on because in recent times when you sell memorabilia, you're not allowed to sell the um, King's or it was Queen's Crown.

So, uh, right, I didn't know that.

Yeah, I think they had to change it for, for what you can sell. So, so when we would tour, uh, our travel suits would be with the coronet. Coronet, yeah, because you're never going to sell your travel suit, right? So I think that's the— I think that's right.

So is mine worth a few quid then?

Yours, probably not. Um, uh, but yeah, so where am I, you know, ultimately Why do we love cricket? It's because our families have been involved. And I think about Mum and Dad and the time they spent on the sidelines. And, you know, my dad played as I was just born, 6 months, in Australia '86/'87. And, you know, that definitely inspired me to want to play the game. So I thought it was a nice touch to connect with history on wearing my dad's Test jumper.

Yeah, and I think what he's trying to do, Jimmy, is capture you two, probably the end of your mark. You've got the ball in your hand with that clever motion actually that he's got as well. So you two, which is what you, you did a lot of, didn't you? A lot of talking.

Yeah, I think that's, you know, we've spoken a lot about this since we both, um, finished playing Test cricket, that that was probably the biggest sort of differential in our partnership. That's what made it special, the communication between the two of us. We understood each other's game really well. We stood at mid-off and mid-on when we bowled so we could help each other out. We'd work the conditions out, we worked the batters out. Um, and even when we're going for dinner, we'd end up on, you know, I remember Broadie going, I'm going to come around the wicket first ball to Warner tomorrow. You know, when we're at dinner the night before an Ashes Test. Stuff like that is just like what Made us from a good partnership to a very good one.

Sorry, it's just reminded me, do you remember going for dinner in Edgbaston before the first Test, maybe 2019? And we sat down, table for 2, just, we were going for like just steak and we sat next to David Warner and his wife.

Oh no, really?

So we just went to a random restaurant. We're like, let's go for a steak. We sat down night before the Ashes series, like literally where Jimmy is now. David Warner, right?

Oh, that's a friendly conversation. Well, you, you certainly turned him over a few times, a few times in that. But was it always an easy conversation? I mean, but I'm thinking because when, when you just started, I mean, you can't help— I know you're all playing in the same team and all that. My generation will find their relationship quite difficult, I think, because somehow there's that sort of competition for places and you didn't quite trust each other. So how did that come about?

So I, I think we started out as competition. So in, I think it was the 2007 World Cup, was probably my first—

I thought it was a replacement.

Yeah, first time we've been in a squad together. Um, and I thought like, you know, this young 20-year-old, long blonde hair, like bowls quick outswing, I'm like, he's going to take my place. Yeah, I think it's competition. Um, and it wasn't until 2008 in New Zealand where, um, Harmison Hoggard got dropped. Yeah. and me and Broadie came into the team where we've sort of learned that we could actually— we actually complement each other well. So we actually work together well in a team. And, um, I think from then on, we sort of— that's how we saw each other. We got, we got closer off the field. We, um, would talk about bowling a lot and, and stuff like that. And as years went on, then we literally would— we knew each other inside out. Like, I would know Stuart's bowling action better than him. And if anything went wrong on the field, I'm at mid-off, I can say, mate, you're not picking your legs up enough, or you're falling away, or whatever it might be. You need to be a foot fuller than what you're bowling. Yeah, that's proper teamwork.

Yeah, I mean, that's brilliant.

Yeah, but I think that's what, you know, if you speak to any good opening partnership through the history of Test cricket— Wasim and Waqar, McGrath And whoever he bowled with.

A chap called Shane Warne?

Pollock and Donald. Yeah, they'd constantly be in conversation about what is the best way to get this guy out in these conditions on this pitch. And that's something that we, you know, by the end we would be able to do it within 2 overs and be able to go, right, these are the conditions today in this game. And this is how we're going to bowl.

That's interesting because you're both different bowlers, aren't you? So, you know, bowling really different lengths and with different mentalities is what you're what you're trying to do, so that you should try and help each other, is really interesting.

But I think that really suited us because there'd be a length that Jimmy would consistently be bowling. And when Jimmy said, you need to get a bit fuller, when I did, they might drive at one that Jimmy, they're being really cautious of, but they think, oh, that's a freebie from Stuart. I'll have a go at that and nick it. So we'd often work in the partnership in the sense that we were just coming from different angles. I was a bit wider on the crease. Jimmy was a swing bowler. I would try and wobble it. But actually, just on the point Jimmy made, when we came into the side, it is unusual you get 2 bowlers that come in together. And we often talk about whether that was brilliant leadership in a sense. You can ask Michael Vaughan tomorrow. I remember clear as day, Wellington, after training the day before, he said to me, I don't need wickets from you tomorrow. I just need energy. I need enthusiasm. Bring that for me. And it was a great message because I went, I can do that. I can't guarantee you wickets, but I can guarantee you that I'll run in and I'll care and I'll give everything. And to put us in together as a young partnership, then it got rid of that competitiveness. You know, it wasn't one or the other for 5 years, and you're just trying to outdo each other in training. It was, go on then, have a go together.

It felt like a new chapter, didn't it? That actually they had, they had turned the page and that you two were going to get extended.

I think we had decent run at it. I think the Caribbean we went to in '09, we chopped and changed a little bit. Oh, I don't think you played Jamaica, did you? Um, and, and But then from then, it felt like, okay, you're together and try and build something and try and find a way for the group to get 20 wickets.

Do you still see each other a lot now? I mean, I was going to move on to that. Do you miss his presence looming at mid-on?

Yeah, like, I, I do. And I, I've refrained a bit from messaging him and calling him about I'm, you know, struggling with this. What can you— you've got any ideas for this at lengths and stuff?

But call me. I'm, I'm, apart from parenting, doing so I'd do it.

I see you slagging off all the bowlers that are in.

Well, that's the thing. Has he changed?

You've turned gamekeeper.

Am I?

Am I slagging everyone off now? I've got to have been kind.

Hey, it's an easy game up there. It's a much easier game.

But that was the thing of our partnership, right? We genuinely believed at mid-on or mid-off, you saw the game differently from bowling the ball. And I, that rings true so much from being up in that media center. You see everything so differently that every bit of info I can get from Jimmy, who's not bowling, but watching the game from my end, is brilliant. Because when you're in the heat of the battle, you're not, you're not seeing everything, um, sort of sat back and looking. So you're just in that little battle.

So you do see the whole picture from the commentary box, don't you?

The whole picture. It's amazing, actually. Uh, and you do quickly Fall into the trap of thinking it was easy game.

Sorry, I was just gonna say I do miss the, um, the good bits, like the travel to the ground. You're driving to the ground, yeah, for a day of Test cricket. You're discussing about who you're going to bowl at today, how are you going to bowl at them, um, how's the wicket going to play and stuff like that. And I do miss that because it, it was a different level to anything I've ever experienced in terms of Any other team I've played in without Brodie before or after that period, it has just not been the same. His attention to detail, like the way he thinks about the game, um, I feel like that's quite special. The way you think, you know, he thinks about the game very differently to the way I think about the game, um, which is, you might think, unusual because we were, um, good together. But I think that helped because I saw it slightly differently sometimes. He would see it slightly differently, but we've got the same—

Both very competitive though, aren't you? I can imagine that sort of going through it.

I was just going to say, like, they were the good times when we were bouncing off each other and trying to offer different ideas. But there were times when, um, you know, we were not best mates.

You fall out, you have a bit of a tiff every now and then.

Well, you think you have to, don't you? You have to. If Jimmy's bowling too full and bowling half volleys, get it. There was a moment when Alistair Cook ran to me at mid-on at Trent Bridge, and it was a— I can tell this because he got 10 for in the game, and Jimmy was carrying on a little bit, and, uh, not something you could say on BBC. And he, Cookie, ran to me and went, I can't get through to him, you have to have a word with him, he's, he's really dragging the energy out of everyone, he's slagging everyone off, like, go and have a word with him and get him to calm down because he needs to get his head on and bowl properly here. So just like wandered over to them.

This would be a brave man to do this.

And I was a bit like, cheers, Cookie. Yeah, just what I want to do. And he told me where to go once, I went again, and then he called me something, uh, that shouldn't be called. And then I decided to go a bit over the top and tell you where to go, and then you bowled really well. And we didn't speak for about 3 days. No, it wasn't that, like 3 hours.

But I think, yeah, that, that being able to— because I think we both had our moments though in that Gotcha. Sort of scenario.

Like, you, you—

I've seen you have blowups with captains in the past, but being able to say, actually, you're in the wrong, mate, and then because we've got that respect for each other, you go, eventually you go, yeah, fair enough, you're right.

I've got to ask you, you still not going to join your mate in the commentary box yet, or how long are you going to keep going on for?

I don't know. I don't— it does look quite comfortable up there, doesn't it? It is very comfortable.

You too.

Look how long he's done it.

I know, yeah.

Can we still chuck in here?

Oh yeah, well, I, I do quite enjoy, because I've been doing the like miles with, in the, on the county circuit and, um, doesn't it hurt?

The body hurt?

It hurts when I've got to listen to you for, for 3 hours on a rain delay. But no, but I love listening to TMS. I love what, like watching Sky. I love all, I like, yeah, I think it's great. because I've been there, I've done a little bit of both. I've played with a lot of guys that are in both commentary boxes. Um, so seeing that, I, I think it's great. At the minute, I feel like I can still play. So I, in my head, I always said I will finish when I don't think I can perform anymore. And at the minute, like, oh, I've had a bit of a calf niggle, so I'm not, not fit, but Um, I've loved it.

Great start this season. I love playing.

Yeah, I played 8 out of 8 Championship games. I played a handful of T20s.

I love all of it.

And at the same time, I'm playing for my, um, my boyhood club, which I went to support as a kid.

Nice.

And I watched all when they were in the '90s, when they had a great time in the white ball stuff, um, winning trophies. And now there's— we've got 17, 18-year-olds coming through, which I feel like I can like offer advice to if they need it. Um, yeah, and we've got a group— we are a little bit, um, sort of in transition with that sort of thing, bringing young players through. Um, so I want— I'd love to be able to do that, but I'd also love to try and win some silverware for Lancashire. And, um, I think with a good mix of experience and youth, we can maybe do that. I imagine, like, I, I just think back to myself starting out in county cricket Imagine having a genuine opportunity to win some silverware at that age. It's such a great experience. So, um, we'll see whether I can— probably not maybe this year, but maybe next year.

There you go.

Many congratulations, you two. It's brilliant. Jimmy, lovely catching up with you. Uh, if we don't see you in the commentary box soon, I'll see you down, down the corridor, Stuart. Gotta give him a bit of stick back at the end. What a lovely chat that was. You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

September's always busy. Whole Foods Market can help. Their September Stock Up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful, nourishing food. Even better, there are hundreds of sales. Get dinner going with canned soups and veggies. Lean on frozen pizzas, pastas, and seafood everyone loves. Their build-your-own family meals feeds 4 for just $35. Stock up at Whole Foods Market.

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I'm going to chat to, uh, well, the, the man responsible for the portrait in a second, uh, Jamie Ratcliffe, sitting alongside me. It is brilliant. But Michael Vaughan, first of all, you've got to mention him there. They're like an old married couple, those two, aren't they? I mean, they're sort of bickering away at each other. They clearly— I mean, they clearly love each other, but that is a— it's a bizarre relationship. And trying to control the two, both such strong characters.

Yeah, they are. I mean, I think Resilience and stubbornness, I think, is a huge trait that you require to play for such a long period of time. Um, you know, I remember when they— you know, I remember Jimmy when he was just a redhead.

Yeah, running from the far end.

Charging in, bowling big outswingers. That's what he was all about. And then over the years, he's just developed.

Looking at the ground as he let go of the ball.

A huge amount of skill. I remember him bowling that, that spell early in his career at Adelaide. I think he bowled 10 overs for not too many in a white ball game when We kind of brought him into that squad. I think that was around 2002-03. Went to the World Cup after that, bowled a great spell against Pakistan at Newlands and bowled them out. And you always knew he had a huge amount of talent, but it's his ability to keep improving over the years. He had that reputation that he couldn't bowl overseas, and they developed the wobble seam and the consistency. Stuart, from the day that I saw him and brought him into the England side in Sri Lanka, I knew he had something. something. He was— and I'm not—

Quite a tough debut, that was about 400 degrees.

Well, we had to field for a few days, so he got used to bowling. So I saw a lot of him. Um, you know, he, he had— you know, I'm not saying Matthew Hoggard, Steve Harmison, Andrew Flint, or Sam Jones never set a field, but Stuart straight away threw in the ball and he said, I want this. So I knew straight away that he was a real thinker of the game. He knew what he was about, very, very competitive, and I actually didn't captain them together that often. It was that series in New Zealand, my last as captain, where we went 1-0 down. I stayed very consistent with Matthew Hoggard, Steve Harmison. Ryan Seipahn got a hat-trick actually in that first game at Hamilton. And Peter Morse was the coach, and he wanted to make the change at the start of the series. And I said, look, I need to be consistent with those that have done so much work for me. So we said, let's give them that first game. If it goes wrong, we'll make the change. And obviously we went 1-0 down and straight away went, right, the change has to happen. That transition now from us being an aging side has to be in the hands of Stuart and Jimmy Anderson going forward. We have to give them a few games to get together and try and create a partnership. And pretty much straight away in Wellington, actually, they created something. You could see that they had something. They had a— even though they'll say that they weren't great mates and they were in comp— You know, Jimmy said he was in competition with Stuart. I get that. I always felt from an early part of their partnership that they were for each other. There's been times in their career where they bowled a bit short, they were a bit safe.

Yeah.

You know, when Joe Root was last captain, actually, there was a period where they bowled a bit safe. But primarily, over a course of a long period of time, they very rarely got it wrong. And they were a great foil for anyone that captained. You just knew you could throw the ball to Jimmy and Stuart, set the tone for England, and more often than not, they did it as well as any.

Yeah, thanks, Michael. Well, Jamie, uh, congratulations. It's, it's not often that a portrait actually creates such, such, such sort of overall approval. Is that the right word? Um, I mean, you're feeling that, aren't you? It's, it's, it's a masterpiece, definitely.

Um, I've felt it since I sort of start— I presented it to the MCC about 6 weeks ago, and it was unanimous recently approved. And, you know, it was quite overwhelming because I've been thinking and working on this for about a year, right? And yeah, the— I haven't been on social media. I haven't looked at the news. I haven't— I'm just trying to take all of this in. It's such a privilege to be here.

Well, I suppose I've got to ask you, I mean, did you know those 2 before? I mean, did you Do you like cricket?

Yes. So big sports fan. I have my own lived experience of their careers, of course. But when I started, when the MCC asked me to consider how I might go about this, I just read for a couple of months. I read their biographies a few times. You know, there's so much information out there, podcasts, reruns of Test matches, and just You, you, you look for things to filter through, and the, the, the— I suppose the main thing that kept coming up in my notes was communication. The way they communicated, uh, between overs, the, the, the, the fluidity. They're very different people.

Yes, they are.

Very different characters, different backgrounds, different styles, but for some reason they just click. And, and it's, it's in that small, that small thing of communicating. It sounds like a small thing, communication, but I think it made a huge difference. And in sport, it's, it's, it's those small margins that make a big difference.

So from that, you then have your, your, your portrait with the two of them standing together.

Yeah, it came directly from that. As I'm thinking, as I'm reading, I'm thinking about communication, this very simple idea of the two of them in conversation, not necessarily that we're going to see them in conversation in the painting, but perhaps the conversation is about to occur, or perhaps it's just happened, but they're both fixed on that wicket.

Yes.

You know, Jimmy uses words like hunting, hunting wickets, or, you know, wickets are a puzzle. to be pieced together. You know, they're so very evocative for somebody like me. Words, you know, create something in your mind, and this idea of simplifying it down to just that conversation. And then there's a lot going on in the painting that's very subtle. The clothing.

Well, the sweater. I mean, as soon as I saw that, Oh, because that's like mine. Yeah, exactly. You don't see them anymore.

Exactly.

And that came up, lovely cream rich color.

Yeah, yeah. And that's Chris Broad's sweater.

He was the number before me. I was next in line.

Yeah, so amazing.

I just saw that and thought, oh, that's so good.

I'm so glad that you got that because Stuart sort of suggested that we were talking about that link with his father. and their relationship as the broad family to England cricket, to Lord's, and the clothing. Clothing is often such a subtle way to bring a narrative in. And to have that, you know, Stuart just said to me, you know, Dad's got his jumpers. And I didn't realize that back then you were given one set of—

Oh, yes.

You know, and that was it.

That's a lot.

Yeah.

If they shrink in the wash, you've had it.

Yeah, yeah. And it's in pristine condition.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So you look after them, you know, they're very special, those old sweaters particularly.

Stuart told me that Chris sometimes wears it to the pub.

Oh, surely not, does he?

Apparently, yeah.

Well, I don't know. But then modern, I mean, the footwear.

Yes.

Absolutely modern with the colored flashes.

Yes. Yeah, that was a It was an opportunity just to bring some— well, it was an opportunity to bring some color in. I mean, it's relevant to the game. They're all wearing very bright things. But Jimmy's last— so in the painting, he's wearing the boots that he wore here at Lord's for the last Test. And those boots are inscribed. They have on the one boot, it has his first Test date.

Really?

And on the other boot, it has the last Test date.

No.

So it seemed, you know, I wanted to inject a bit of color into the painting. And, and, um, and when we— when I realized that those dates appeared on the, you know, Jimmy very kindly sent me the boot stamp, uh, to, to work from, you know. And Stuart's— it just, it works quite well because, you know, Jimmy has 613 on his sweater, um, you know, and that— I'm a cricket fan, but I didn't— it's, it's the small details that I didn't quite, uh, know enough about. So, you know, that when you're given your first cap, it's— you're, you're placed in history. It's 613. He's the 613th player to play for England. It's chronological.

Yes.

And then Stuart, his dates are on his boots, obviously, because it's— he's wearing his father's jumper, uh, and he's 638. He's 25 players later, which you'll probably know how many years between them?

A couple, was it? 3 years?

3, maybe?

I think it's about 3 years, yes.

You know, which is— I just love—

Jimmy was very young.

Yeah, yeah. And actually, I think Stuart was saying that he may have come to the Pavilion— his grandfather, I think, was a member— at 15, and he thinks that Jimmy was playing.

Oh.

Which is quite— that's quite a nice— Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's quite a nice How many—

I mean, how long did it take? How many sittings? How often did they come into your studio?

So Stuart lives in London, so he was much more accessible. Yeah, Jimmy and I spoke a lot in the lead-up. It was probably a 9— probably took about 9 months from when the MCC contacted me to when they first came into the studio. So I had a lot of time to think. We had to plan their schedules. You know, Stuart's in Australia with the Ashes. Jimmy, offseason with the county. I knew as soon as preseason started, that's it. I'm not going to see Jimmy.

Yeah.

Which was the case. And I don't mind that at all. I'm quite similar. You just won't get me once I start something. And so they came into the studio in February. And by then I had everything planned in my head. I'd done so much research, we'd done so much talking, I knew what they wanted. We were always quite aligned. And so I had the light the way that I wanted. I had the— well, actually, the clothing, that's another story. Jimmy gets on the train and I get a message, I haven't got anything.

Oh no.

from the list. And so the lovely, uh, so Charlotte Goodhue at the MCC, who's just been amazing— everyone's been amazing here— uh, I got on the phone to Charlotte. She's the, uh, the, the curator here. And I said, Charlotte, we've got a problem. Uh, Jimmy doesn't have anything. Sittings tomorrow, you know. And trying to— you can imagine trying to get both of them together for, for a whole day of sittings.

Yeah.

And so, uh, she gets on the phone to to the lovely kit man at Loughborough who puts a load of kit, knows Jimmy's size, puts a load of kit in a taxi, and it gets driven down to my studio. And all of these things going on in the background. I mean, Stuart's great because Stuart's got kit. He's got—

Pretty well organized, Stuart.

Very well organized. Yeah. And so they were in the studio full day. of sittings. Now, my background, I've spent most of my career working from life. Recently, in the last 5 years, I've introduced ways to work with photography and video, which has been really helpful. It opens up another way of thinking for me as well.

Too dimensional, though, I guess. Is it a problem?

It's— I think because I've got enough experience working from life, I'm not I'm not slavishly looking at the photographs and copying them. I use a lot of distance in my work, so I stand the other side of the studio. So pretty much the way that I had Jimmy and Stuart set up, I knew where I wanted them to stand. I knew that I wanted it to be quite dramatic lighting, because another thing that we spoke about was how the pitch is like a stage. felt, particularly Stuart, like actors on a stage.

Right.

You have a persona on the pitch. Stuart loves a crowd. Jimmy has a persona on the pitch that he has to manage. He has to manage, you know, he's Jimmy. Yes.

Can be quite grumpy.

You know, so yeah, yeah, very. But I wanted, I really wanted that steely— I was glad that they both came as themselves. They both gave themselves over to the painting, and I got everything that I needed. needed from that long day, just in case what I thought would happen, I wouldn't get Jimmy.

I do not have an artistic bone in my body.

I'm sure you do.

What, what's the first thing? When you first commit the pencil to the— what's the first thing?

It's— for a big painting like that, I do like to draw things out. You just need to— this—

What's the first stroke? What is it? Well, the first eyes are—

you need to get as much in as possible. You need to get as much down to work with as possible. Hesitation That's why committing, having the concept in mind, knowing exactly what you're going for, you could just be confident in going for it. And so get as much down as possible. Then you've got stuff to work with. It's like anything. It's like if you were writing a book, you'd get the first draft down, and then you look to filter, and you're able to edit.

Yeah.

Well, you've created something very special, Jamie. As you can probably tell by everyone's response, congratulations.

Thank you. It's such a privilege to be on here. I have to pinch myself really because I listen to you guys all the time. And yeah, fantastic.

It's been a pleasure having you. Thank you, Jamie Routley. And if you get the chance to view that portrait— You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

What's that saying about not letting the truth get in the way of a good story? Well, I'm Krowell Prince, and I'm in the way. Online, I catch out some of the biggest names in football, holding their tall tales to account. But now the tables have turned. Can I spot the truth from the lies as those same guys who I try to catch try and catch me out? Roll the tapes. I'm Krowell Prince, Lie Detector, on the Football Daily Podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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