Building a combined Ashes XI

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To the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello. Welcome to the TMS pod. A month to go until the men's Ashes gets underway in Perth. Ball by ball, commentary of all five tests on BBC sounds and sports Extra highlights on the BBC Sport website and app as well. All of our guests this evening, part of our team out in Australia, Phil Tufnell Mushk, Michael Vaughan and Glenn McGrath. I mean, seriously, how long have we been doing this show together? Phil, and you still, your camera at the moment is just pointing at your stomach. I can't.

I'm sorry.

Something's. Something's never changed.

Phil, I see you've got your jogging suit on again.

I have indeed. I've got my little onesie thing on. I've been relaxing. Dark this evening. Yeah. No, no. Not far away now, mate, is it? Can't wait. Excited. It's already started, hasn't it? All the banter and all the sort of rivalry and what have you. So, yeah, I'm going to be going down under and I cannot wait.

I think it's going to be an. Absolutely. You're looking in good nick.

Am I? Yeah.

Oh, good.

I can't see you lot. Where are you? I can't see you.

You. You just don't worry about seeing us. Just keep. Keep your camera. Yeah, keep your camera there so I can see you. That's all. That's all we need. So, Phil and Michael, Glenn, all part of our team out in Australia. Evening, Glenn. How are you?

Yeah, going well. It's morning over here, but it's good to see it. Arc and Vonnie Toughers. Always good to see you guys.

Yeah, nice to see you.

You getting excited?

Yeah, yeah, looking forward to it. A bit of fun. There's a few one day and a few T20s against India to get through, but we're still, what are we, a month away? So, yeah, getting closer.

Do you think how people are viewing this series, Michael has changed? I'll come on to what the show's gonna be in a minute but we'll just preview the series a little bit. Do you think it has changed because of the Pat Cummings news?

Yeah, I think so. I mean every Ashes series that takes place it seems to get bigger. You know, I remember playing in a couple 20 odd years ago and I thought that was big. But this one, the build up and the, as Phil's already mentioned, the banter started, any kind of quote from any ex player seems to travel a lot further. But the news a couple of weeks ago that Pat Cummings, I mean, I don't know. Glenn will tell us more whether he's completely ruled out of that first test but from what I saw from the quote, it looks like he'll miss Perth and George Baylor, the chairman of selectors for Australia suggested that he may play a part. But Glenn, what is the news from Sydney as we speak about Pat Cummins?

Yeah, no, I think you're probably right there, Vonnie. It, it's not looking good for, for Como. But then this is the lead up to the Ashes as sometimes you're not sure what's coming out of the camps and how, how spot on it is. Mitchell Stark did an interview the other day said oh no, he'll be fine. So, but I think, I think K is, I heard he is a bit ginger at a couple of training sessions. Hasn't bowled, you know, hasn't bowled. So whether, you know that, that injury, that hot spot, whether it's more of a stress fracture, it's, that's a big concern because he's a massive part of the Australian lineup.

So I mean Paige, can I just, surely Australia wouldn't, you know, say that Pat's not going to play the first test and suddenly he rocks up in Perth. Would they?

Oh no. Yeah, I wouldn't take a leaf out of your book but I think, I think he is struggling a little bit by reports I've got. So yeah, that's a big blow for.

The Aussies which means as well Glenn, he would then have to be managed through a five match series, wouldn't he?

Yeah, exactly right. And if it is stress fractures, he has had it in, you know, in the past when he was younger but he's been bowling without too much injury for quite some time. But his action just lends to it. He just loads his back up to create that extra pace sometimes and when his strength just wanes a little bit, that's when there's issues. So fingers crossed for him he won't be out for the whole series. I think you know, it'd be not the same without Pat Cummins for the five tests.

And it also, I mean, it's also. Phil, before we get on to what this show is going to be, just a final one, it also alters the leadership of Australia.

Well, no, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, he's such a sort of like talismanic figure, isn't he, Pat Cummings, you know what I mean? And yeah, I'll be disappointed if he can't play a big role. You know, when you go over there, you don't want injuries to get in the way. You want to get the best boys playing at their peak, you know, And I think, you know, I think that the England side might be, look, keeping an eye on it, just sort of going well. Okay, that sort of done us all right. But no one wishes anyone, you know, injuries and you want to play the best boys and sort of like have a good deal.

Phil, we didn't mind Glenn missing out in 20 years ago.

Should I take that back?

We were celebrating at 9:34 at edgeback, let me tell you.

Have we ever, ever. Did they ever find the bloke who rolled that?

It was you.

I said born.

You did it.

Everyone's taking credit for doing it. So what are you saying about 05? It wasn't as good a victory as what it could have been, Is that what you're saying?

Well, not really.

Right, let's get on to what this show is going to be then, which is Michael, Glen and Phil discussing and debating their combined ashes 11 ahead of this series. Out of the players in both squads. And just to spice it up slightly, each selection is an either or so chappers.

Is this for the first test in Perth?

Oh my God. Don't throw, don't throw.

Well, it's for Australian conditions, isn't it, surely?

Yes, it is. But for the purposes of the this exercise, there will be a spinner that you have to select. You can't go in with an all pace attack, for example.

Okay, but we're talking about a series in Australia, not a series here in the uk.

Yes. Yeah, we are. Yeah.

All that's changed a few things on my.

I see you have a pencil. Why have you got a pen?

I mean you, I mean, take, take this in the nicest, in the way it's meant. Phil, when they told me that this was gonna be the show, I'm thinking, oh, this is gonna be really good. I'm looking forward to the debate here. But then, and obviously I always want to have you as one of My guests. But when you're then mentioned knowing how difficult you find it to put an 11 together, it always slightly concerns me. We'll be all right.

Listen, I might try and slip 12 in for you.

So it is an either or. So, for example, when we come to number four, you are picking between Root or Smith. You can't have a middle order that has both. Just to mix it up a bit. So hopefully by the end of it, you will have agreed on an 11. You as well can have your say. This is on the BBC Sport website or app as well to vote for your combined ashers 11.

Can I just say, I did one of these last year in Australia after they lost the first test against Perth and it was an either or. And it was just after England had won a test in New Zealand and Jacob Bethel had played nicely. And I put Jacob Bethel, I basically put England's top seven ahead of all the Aussies and got lambasted. So we have to clarify that this is for the first test. You must have a spinner.

Yeah. You must have a spinner.

And it's for now. It's today's form. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. Have you had no briefing call about the show?

Not really, but I'm just trying to make sure we clarify today's form for the first test in Australia.

Yeah. Okay. And so, for example, at the moment with how England have played, when we get to number three, it's Ollie Pope. Okay. Yeah. Right. Okay. I still think the majority of your top seven still may be English. Just to widen. Just to widen the odds up again as we go into this. So we start at the top of the order. So we start with either Zach Crawley or Sam Constance. So do you see how this is working?

But I wouldn't go with either of those two. I'd go Mitchell Marsh.

Right. But then he's not on this at the moment, so you can't do that.

Right.

Oh, my God. All of us never did. I think had long for Sutton to come back and just do another hour of the. At the Monday nightclub.

Oh, he was grumpy tonight, wasn't he?

Was very, very grumpy. So Crawley or Constance? First of all, you go first, Mich.

If it's between Crawley and Constance, I'm going Zach Crawley. But I'd play Mitchell Marsh ahead.

Both of them. Right. Why would you go Crawley? Even though you wouldn't go Crawley. But you see what I mean?

Well, Zach Crawley averages 30 and he's an impact player. He's got five Test match hundreds and England have Stayed loyal with him for this moment in Australia. Last time we're in Australia, played a good innings in Sydney. He should suit the bounce in Australia. He does play the likes of Cummins and Stark and Hazelwood nicely. Got a magnificent 100 at Old Trafford in the last Ashes series. And Sam Constance is just a young kid who's starting out. He played an incredible innings against Jasper Brunmer last year at the mcg but since then he hasn't done a great deal. So I'm going to go with Zack Crawley.

I reckon, I reckon that what they're thinking about, Zach Crawley is like they've got five test matches, you know, if he can just play us two or three match winning innings, you know what I mean? I think that that's what he's there for. I don't think, you know, all through his care career they've just been thinking, you know, we don't want him to average 30. We want him, doesn't matter if he gets out early on. I just want those two or three knocks that are going to really impact the game. So yeah, I'm going Crawley as well.

Yep, I think you're right, Phil. And he has impacted test matches. You know, he does get England off to the odd flying. So I guess the frustration for us as ex players and a lot of England supporters that he doesn't go on. He does give his wicket away too easily, too often. But England have stuck with him for what, pretty much four years for this moment in Australia.

I mean he has a bit of fear factor. He has a bit of fear factor about him, doesn't he? You know, you, you want to get him early otherwise you think oh crikey, something's gonna, something could be around the corner.

And that would be my question to you. I suppose Glenn and, and Duckett will come into this as well when we come on to the other opener. I suppose. But would, would Australia be more fearful of someone who could knock them out of their stride with three innings in five tests as opposed to a consistent performance in six innings out of five tests.

Yeah, you're probably right there. You know, I think you look at our bowling attack in, you know, if Pat Cummins does play, you've got Josh Hayswood, Mitchell Stark, Scotty Boland will probably come in and bowls really well in Australian conditions. If you've got batsmen that are just looking to survive and wait for bad balls, they're not going to come. So you need to put it back on the, the Australian bowlers. So someone like a Zach Crawley A Ben Duckett is probably the way to go. My biggest issue with, with what they call basball is in Australia, you're playing in big on bigger grounds, so whether they can adapt to that. You know, Vaughn, he said before, Zach Crawley sometimes gives his wickets away cheaply, but I thought that was the. The basball way. So no accountability, no responsibility, just go out there and play. But it's going to be interesting. You know, you talk at the, you know, Zach Crawley's ham, Constance, you know, Sam's just a young bloke coming through. I actually went for Zach Crawley as opening. I. I quite like the way he goes about it, his attitude. So. Yeah. So I'm not feeling very proud of myself at the moment.

Glenn, can I ask you a question? You're well in the first ball at Perth to Zach Crawley, are you putting cover point on the boundary?

Oh, oh, no. I'm happy for him to play that shot first ball because the last time.

At Edgbaston, he was on the boundary. And actually India, in the last Test at the oval, they positioned a deep extra cover fill in the second innings, didn't they? Didn't they? And he hit three or four lovely shots to that fielder on the boundary, didn't get the boundaries that he'd done in the first innings and it seemed to frustrate him. So I'm looking at the Aussie tactics of will they go the old Aussie way or we'll have four slips and a gully and you'll have to hit it past. As Glenn rightfully mentions, the grounds in Austria and the outfield sometimes aren't as quick as we get here in the uk or will they go, no, this is the way we play. This is what we did in 2023. And we'll have that cover point on that boundary for that big drive to stop them getting the early fours.

Can I just ask you one on Konsas, which, as Michael has alluded to, Glen Orde has mentioned the innings that he played at the MTG against India. Michael Hussey has said this weekend because he struggled for forming the Sheffield Shield, as Constance Hussey has said, if I'm being honest, I feel for him, given the opportunity against India, played that amazing innings at the MCG and it had us all gobsmacked, but we all knew that was not a sustainable way to be successful in Test match cricket. He's got enormous talent, but he's still so young, he's still trying to figure out what his best game looks like. Yeah.

So hus Mr. Cricket's probably on the money there. I thought the way he came in and played that innings against Boomer really changed that match and turned it around and Australia went on to, to win that in a, in a pretty amazing game. You know, 370, 000 people at the boxing Day Test match shows Test crickets alive and well, which is brilliant. But the thing where the trick I think the selectors missed was they. Then the Australian team toured Sri Lanka and he didn't play. I thought they had to continue playing him, keep his confidence up, give him, you know, show a bit of faith in him. And I think since then, you know, his scores haven't been that good and he hasn't started the season off that well here. So yeah, unfortunately for Sam, he's not in the best of form but he is only a young follower and yeah, they have a different confidence these days. They go out there, they back themselves and yeah, we'll see what the future holds.

But also is there a lot of pressure and attention on him? Because there's a. I was going to say desperation but I'm not trying to wind you up but because there's a.

No, no, no, go on Chapas, use that word.

Okay.

Desperate.

Because there's a, there's a real urge and need and want for Australia to find someone in their top order under 30.

Well, you're probably right there. There's, you know, Uzi's, Usman Kwaja, you know, Uzi's now 38, be 39 in December. So he's not a spring chicken anymore. And that top order for Australia sort of probably struggled a little bit for, for a while now. So yeah, they're looking for someone who's set, someone who's younger. I like Forney's comment on Mitch Marsh. He's, he's hitting the ball well. He's a, he's a power player. And it looks like they're going to go with Usman. So you need someone at the other end who's going to score and score quickly. So yeah, it's a, it's a, it's issue for the Australians at the moment and I'm keen to see who they're going to go with.

Sam Consness, from the time that he came in against India, the pitches last, last summer in Australia, they did all sorts. It wasn't easy for batting and then as Glenn said, he didn't get that, that position in Sri Lanka, which he should have done. And then he played in the West Indies and some of the Pitches over there were horrendous, you know, so he's had a start in Test match cricket facing Bummer, who was in fine form on pitches that have offered a great deal to the ball. And then he goes to the Caribbean and does. And I'm watching a lot of state cricket in, in Australia over the last two or three weeks and. And the ball seems to be doing a great deal more than I remember when I used to be, you know, 20, 21, watching all the. The state teams. And there'll be 550 play. 550 scores of 250, 300 now are becoming the norm and I think that may be the case in the Test series as well.

Where are you watching Australian State?

I have it. I. I can't tell you. I think it's illegal.

He's got a live feed.

I don't know, but I do watch.

But well done. All in the interests of research, correct? Yeah. Okay, so. So when you go for the other opener then here, Michael, you could go first. Are you going duck it?

Oh, yes.

Or I mean, do you want me to throw a kawaja stat in?

Go on then.

Top score of 47 in his last 10 innings.

No, I'm going Ben Duckett. I think at this stage, Ben Duckett is. We said in the summer, you know, across the three formats, you could put a very strong case for pound for pound in being up there with the best players in the world. There's not many play all three formats and he's up there opening the bat and doing great in T20 cricket, 50 over cricket, test match cricket.

He looked like he needed a rest. Towards him.

Yeah. And he's had that rest. And he's been away on holiday because I follow him on Instagram and he's been on a nice beach, drinking a few cocktails. So he's ready to go for Australia.

Legally following him on Instagram?

I think so, yeah. Usman Kwaji has been a tremendous player, but over the course of the last couple of years, he's just starting to lose that little bit of it. He may get it back. He might just have this one last dance against England, but I think it's quite an easy one for me. Ben Duckett gets the nod.

Okay. And for you? Tougher.

Yeah. Little Ducky. One of the most exciting opening batters I've seen for a long time. You know, I watched him quite a lot now sort of on his way through to get to this position of opening the batting with England, and he.

Just looks what we like about it. When there's a bit of Argy Bargy and the world, he's always there looking up, looking up to the big quicks.

He's always, he's always in the little back of the punch up, isn't he?

You know what I mean?

Just with his little head sort of going about.

I like it.

Yeah. Gritty, determined and a cracking player. I'll tell you. I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be really crucial actually, the opening and Australia have got this sort of. They don't quite know where they're going without opening. You know, when, when you see the two boys go up out up front opening the batting, you want to get off to that good start, don't you? And I think England will be seeing that as a real weakness for Australia.

Yeah, Glenn, just on the opening partnership for Australia at the minute. Where does it look like Australia will go?

Oh, there's a few names being thrown up. Mitch Marsh as you mentioned, you know, Jake Weatherall, who's. He's not, he's got plenty of shield experience. He's not a young follower at all, but he has that confidence and just maybe you need someone like that at the top of the order. So they've thrown around a lot of names, you know, Bancroft, Renshaw, but no one's really put their hand up and grabbed it in the early shield matches. So yeah, it's going to be interesting to see Renshaw. They played in the first one day match against India and whether that's just a little sign that will give him a bit of. Bit more international experience leading into the Ashes, we'll wait and see. But I don't think they've really decided yet, to be honest.

You're ducking as well, aren't you?

Just, you know, just.

This is quite remarkable.

He's been great, but he is nearly 39, still does well against the Spinners, but I think against the Quicks he's just, as you get older, you just lose that sharpness. So, you know, Duckett is an exciting player, but he's a, he's the type of guy that just does not want to let a ball go, does he? I want to see quicker, bouncier pitches in Australia. Just trying to play every single ball off Hazelwood, you know, stock those guys with that extra bounce. It's going to be, it's going to be interesting. But yes, I, I went for Ben Duckett again. Very disappointed, pointed in myself.

So Glenn has gone for an all England opening pair of Crawley and Duckett, as have Michael and as has Phil. On the BBC Sport website, 80% went for Crawley, 20% for Constance, 81% for Duckett, 19% for Khawaja. So Crawley and Duckett are there. So number three is an interesting discussion because obviously there's all the pressure on Ollie Pope and who knows, really? And he's had the vice captaincy taken off him. So is Jacob Bethell ready to pass? But for the purpose of this exercise, it's Ollie. Equally, as far as the Aussies are concerned, Cam Green has missed the ODI series with India as a precaution. Marcus Labechein's form has started to pick up.400 in his last five games in the Sheffield Shield. So he could come back, but for the purposes of the exercise, Glenn, it's Pope or Cameron Green. But you can expand on other Aussie options if you want, because this top three is so unsettled for you.

Yeah, exactly right. And they've tried Green. They really want him in the team. They've got two all rounders in, in Cameron Green and Bo Webster, and my feel is they want to play in both. The issue for Cam Green at the moment, I don't think he's 100%. I'm not sure he's going to start that first Test match, so. And if they don't, I think Manuslavshane will come in. He's in fine form, but out of the options we have, I've gone for. For Cam Green over Ollie Pope.

Toughers. This is a. This is a harder one, I think, because as we've alluded to, neither of these two might play.

No, that's right. I mean.

We'Re not very good when we're picking about two players that are going to battle and neither might not play.

We're not selectors, we're just broadcasters. It's fine.

I've gone. I've. I've gone, just as you say, just for Ollie Pope, you know, Cam Green for me. Isn't it funny, though, we're talking about an Australia 1, 2, 3 that no one really knows what's going on for the first time. I mean, it's unheard of. Usually it's set in stone, the guys that are walking out. So I think that's really going to play into England's favor. Yeah, just for me. Ollie Pope still, you know, what is he going to average 30? Is he going to average 35? Batting at number three for England, you know, but then I can't really see Cam Green, you know, he just feels he doesn't feel quite like a number three that's going to be walking out for me. Sort of like striking fear into it. If he has a good day. Cam Green, listen, he's devastating, you know, without a shadow of a doubt. But I've just gone for Ollie Pope.

I personally would have gone minus Labashade in the form that he's in for.

So your top three would, would be Mitchell Marsh and.

That'S my top three. But for this show I would just go Cameron Green purely because of his all round Ollie Pope, if he has a great series, probably average 35, 40. But Phil mentioned, I think Cameron Green, if he has a good series, he'll average 35, 40, bowl loads of overs and he's probably the best catcher that Australia. I mean they've had some great catchers but he.

We're talking about batting, we're talking about batting here.

This is a team, Phil. Your players must be able to do lots of other things other than just Batman. So I'm gonna have Cameron Green just.

Ahead of Ollie Pope and if he is fit and can play, and can play three, what, what difference does that make Glenn for that sort of top order for the Aussies?

You're talking Cam Green.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

He's, he hasn't had a lot of cricket of late. He, you know, he had that back operation earlier this year which I think's been a big success and hopefully will come back. So I've got a lot of, you know, I think he's a quality player. You know, he's, he's six, seven, can bat long, he's an aggressive power hit of the ball and can bowl a heavy ball when he is out there as well. So he's a, he's a, probably more a batting all rounder. He's described as, but in the gully, he's great hands. You know, some of the catches he's taken, plus the size of him, he, you know, he takes up two people in the field. So you know, I think he's a quality player. Just needed getting fit playing and out there in the middle. So yeah, he's the future of Australian cricket. Definitely.

Okay, so the website, 65% of people went for Cameron Green and 35% of Ollie Pope. So Cameron Green is there at this stage. I mean in an ideal world, well, in an ideal world this would be very different for Michael. But in an ideal world you'd probably have Root or Smith. But for the purposes of this, if they Both bat at 4, you can only have one Phil.

I'm gonna go. Well, I'm changing my mind here. Listen, I really, really, really want to go with Joe Root. I think Joe Root go with your gut, Phil. Well, yeah, okay, I'm going with my gut.

You've been showing it us all night.

Why did you want to change your mind?

Well, no, because I think he averages 77, doesn't he or something, Mike?

60 fell.

Oh, 60 or something in Australia. Listen, he's, he's an amazing player. Probably going to be with the captaincy, which I think, I think his record shows that he even scores more runs when he's captain. But I just feel, I just got a feeling that Joe Root is going to have, you know, hasn't got that hundred in Australia. I just think he's going to have an absolute crack in series. He's going to be so up for it, so tuned in, so focused that I can see him getting three three hundreds, three even four hundreds. There you go. Three or four hundreds this series and.

Three or four 400.

Three hundreds, 300.

Why has he found it so comparatively harder in Australia that we've watched him.

Over a few series over there and I, I don't think he's done a great deal wrong other than obviously he's just not got the three figures. He's had 50s, he's played nicely. I think he's got nine 50s in Australia. He averages 36, which is, yeah, you know, not to his standards, but career average is 51.2. Yeah, I think the last one. What did Stuart Broad say about the last Ashley series? He basically say it was null and void, wasn't it? It was a Covid time.

It was tough.

So let's rule that one out. So I would be staggered, I'd be staggered with the way that he's playing. If he doesn't get 100, I guess the extra bit of bounce just outside of off stunt, where in, in the UK and in India where the ball doesn't bounce as much, he kind of glides it down to third. Doesn't he get so many runs down to that region? Whereas in Australia, with that extra little bit of bounce that usually finds edge and flies to the cordon. So that's the only area that I can see that he has a, A, a slight bit of vulnerability. But with the way that he goes about his business, I can't imagine that he's not going to get a huge amount of runs.

And also, as Glenn said, if they've got Cameron Greed in the gully, he takes up three players.

Well, I'M Bo Webster. If Bo Webster plays as well.

Yeah.

Steve Smith has did a really interesting article with the Athletico over the summer talking about the balance he is now finding. Glenn. Yes, he will still hit balls but he has learned how important the mental side of the game is for him now and how much it can take out of you. So how much he tries to keep in his tank, especially when the games come thick and fast as they will do in a five test series.

Exactly right. And you know, Steve Smith of the past was cricket 24 7. He'd even get his wife to come down and feed the ball machine so he could hit in the middle of the night. So he was that much of a cricket nuffy. You know, I'm not sure many, many guys wives would actually do that, but his did. So yeah, you need that balance, you need that escape and you know, Smudge seems to be in a good place at the moment. Hopefully he'll come out and find the form that we've seen in the past. I've gone for for Steve Smith over Joe Root, as you said. You know, his high score is 89. He's never really liked scored big in, in Australia and what you're saying there, Vaughnie, that's how you're going to get out in Australia. So it's going to be tough. You know, the last three series here in Australia, England should have been beaten 15 nil, but the rain helped them out once and the world's flattest track in Melbourne helped them out the other time. So you know, my money's on Steve Smith in this one.

So you go. You'd go Root. I'm assuming.

I'm actually not going to go, Joe, only because. Well, because I'm looking at Steve Smith's average of 60 with 1800s in Australia and Joe Root average of 36.9ft. I can't suddenly, even though in my opinion he's going to break Sachin's record, he's England's finest cricketer that we've produced in terms of batting. But for Australia, I can't look beyond Steve Smith's average of 60 and 18 test centuries. So I hate to say it, but I'm going to go Steve Smith.

Interesting.

I'm liking, I'm liking what von he's got to say here. I'm putting you up for an Australian selector and I'm just starting to hear a little bit of an Aussie accent coming through when you speak.

You did pick two England players at the top Gl. I think Steve Smith, the one Thing I reckon that's helped me. He's found golf.

He talked about that. He's talking about that.

Yeah, he's found golf. So he's got something away from cricket now that he can switch off. He can go and spend four or five hours on the golf course. He practices golf probably more than he practices batting these days. And I think that's probably helped him freshen up for the test matches.

Okay, so Phil stuck with Root. Glenn and Michael went with Smith. The website, I mean, there may be some English bias here, but the website went 90% root.

I can understand.

I can't think well what Steve Smith may have done to only deserve getting 10% there. Number five then Brook or Travis Head. I think that's a bit.

Oh, that's tough.

I think Travis heads a bit harder that.

I mean, Travis has probably been Australian's best player for the last few years across all the formats. He's changed the course and dare I say it, the basball way is very much the Travis headway and he's been doing it for a while where he goes out there at number five and he just scores so quickly and he's taken down some decent attacks both home and away. This is a really tough one because I think in Harry Brook we have a very special player and I personally will find it very, very difficult to go and knock on either of their doors and saying, sorry, Travis, or sorry, Harry, you're not making this side. But because I'm right on the fence, I'm going to pick my English player.

Okay, thanks.

I'm going to go Harry. But purely for that reason that I honestly would find it so, so difficult because we are looking at Harry Brook. I mean, I saw him this morning against New Zealand. I know it's T20 cricket, but he is a special talent and I know Travis is and he's more experienced, but I, I can't leave Harry Brook out of a side. So Harry's in Glenn.

Tough one, incredibly tough one. I think I went Harry Brooke because I agree with Vaughnie. He's such a special player, special talent. But the more I think about it, I'm. I'm nearly shifting back to Travis Head. Only because of the, the bigger outfields in Australia. Yeah, yeah, Brook special player. He takes a plate, the, you know, the bowlers on. But that extra distance in the field, he's going to have to navigate that and adapt to that and we'll wait and see what happens.

So you're changing your, you're changing from Brook to Head, are you?

It's a tough one. It's a tough one. So I'm probably 51, Travis head 49.

Okay, so you're not going. Travis header, Phil.

Yeah, as you say, two really, you know, absolute powerhouses in that middle order. I think they're both going to have great series. I think Glenn's point that. That is the one perceived weakness, isn't it, of every Brook, those sort of short balls just outside off stump. If he wants to try taking on the hooks and the pulls with the size of the grounds, I, Well, I went for Harry Brook, as you say, once in. Once in a generation kind of player, and he's only going to get better.

You could make a strong point of which of the two has the better series, could sway each team because in the last few years, and Glenn's been there watching as well, this Kookaburra ball's different and the pitches do, do a lot more. And the top three or four, they found it very difficult. And then Travis Head comes in or Harry Brook comes in, the ball's just a little bit old. It's not quite doing quite as much. And then you can start to capitalise. So it could come down to the engine rooms and particularly the number fives for both teams.

Yeah, no, you're probably right. It's, it's, it's going to be interesting that the type of players they are, they take, take the bowlers on. I look always looked at Adam Gilchrist coming in at number seven was a luxury that no other team had. If he batted for a while, he either got us back in the team or took the game away from the opposition. So those two players are that style of player. Yeah, and it could come down to that. So it's that new ball is, is very important and the extra bounce. And as Vonnie said, the matches this year, the pitchers have had plenty. And it's that bounce, that extra bounce that undoes a lot of touring teams.

Okay, so Glenn's gone greensmith, head. So you've gone three Aussies there. Phil went Pope, Brute, Brooke. So you've gone the three English and Michael's gone green, Smith and Brooke. BBC Sport website. So far, 70% going for Harry Brook.

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The next one, I'm guessing, will be very simple here. Put it this way, the vote on the BBC Sport website here is 98% for one of them and 2% for the other. Which is the all rounder, Ben Stokes or Bo Webster? I mean, and we're basing this on Ben Stokes being fully fit, the whole thing. Phil, there's no, I mean, there's no debate, is there?

No, no, absolutely leader of the pack, fantastic captain. Going to be crucial to England, how they get on, you know, touch. Wooden fingers crossed. He keeps fit and healthy. Back with the bat, looks so strong. England looked England's best bowler during the summer, for my money. And if he gets that kind of, if he gets that going and he just keeps fit, I think he's going to have a wonderful series. He brings so much more to the team than just his cricketing skills. You know, I mean, he's an absolute warrior and a leader and yeah, I think he's going to have another crack. I think he's going to have a cracking series.

Ben Stokes, for me, yeah, it's an easy one. I'd like to know the 2% are actually. Yeah, Bo Webster is a, he's a very good cricketer and he'll offer the ability to play different styles of innings. He can get on the front foot and be aggressive. He can hang in there and kind of play a nutritional role as well. His bowling's quite interesting. He doesn't bowl quick but he bowls his wobble seam. Sometimes. Alex Carey will stand up to the stumps and he catches everything. So he's a quality cricket, but it's an easy one for me.

Ben Stokes, yeah, I mean, the sort of obvious nature of the selection here, Glenn is less about Bo Webster but more about Ben Stokes.

Oh, without a doubt. You know, Stokes is just class. He's a quality player. He'll be one of the greats once he retires. So, yeah, and Bo Webster, he's only played a handful of games. He's had a great start for Australia both with bat and ball. I think he's going to have a good series, Bo Webster, but when you're judging him pound for pound, you can't go past Stokesie.

Okay, Right, so that's very simple. Everybody going for Ben Stokes dominating on the BBC Sport website as app. BBC Sport website and app bearing it. You start this one because you talked about the importance of the engine room here, which is Jamie Smith or Alex Carey.

See, this is tough because, I mean, Jamie Smith's had a great start to his English career. He tied towards the back end of the Indian series, which is a concern for me going to Australia. Five matches to come, thick and fast. Alex Carey's been pretty much Mr. Consistent for Australia now. Great team player. Oh, this is tough. I just think Jamie Smith has got. They call it the ceiling now when they start talking about a younger player, the ceiling's really high. I just see such a high ceiling for Jamie Smith and the toss of a coin. And it is a toss of a coin. I am going to go with the English Jamie Smith because of his high ceiling.

Phil.

Yeah, Jamie Smith for me, as you say, very close run thing. Excuse me, Alex Carey, as Mike said, Mr. Consistency and. And has got better and better with the bat, for my money. And, you know, really comes in at that sort of number seven spot and sort of looks to. Looks to sort of. He can play all sorts of innings, but he looks to get stuck in. But he can sort of like, you know, play the expansive shots as well. But I just think that Smith, I've seen him play some outstanding innings. And when you've got someone coming in at number seven when the bowlers are getting a little bit tired. I think Glenn just said about Adam Gilchrist, he has the power and the shots to really change the game. So I've just gone. Smith gonna be interested to see how he keeps over there because it's not. It's. It's tricky keeping an Aussie.

You also haven't picked an Aussie yet, Phil.

No, not yet. Just hold on. You've just gotta wait, though. You've just gotta wait.

Let's see. Let's see what's coming down the line in the last 15 minutes. This is a hard one, Glenn, this.

Yeah, it is. And as the guys have mentioned, but I've gone for Alex Carey, you know, just consistent, just reliable. You know what you're going to get. He knows the conditions so well. So, yeah, got to get a bit of balance there and get another Australian in there and.

And endurance as well. I mean, Michael made the point of Jamie Smith getting tired towards the end of the India series and it is a tough tour.

Five test matches in Australia. You know, it's. I've heard that the amount of English coming out to support the England team, there's nearly going to be more English fans in the crowd than Aussies, but it is, it is A pretty tough tour. Five test matches on different grounds. Quick, bouncy, you know, the Aussies. Yeah, we like a bit of banter and the crowd will give him a bit of a tough time but it is, you know, that just see how long he can hold in there. So it's going to be interesting and if Australia get off to a good start, it can be even, even tougher.

Let's go on to the Spinners which as things stand is showed. Bashir or Nathan Lyon. Is this where you pick your first Aussie film?

It is, I'm afraid. I mean, you know, absolute legend of Nathan Lyon. Wonderful spin bowler. Has been for years now. Just knows his role. He's got all the tricks up his books. He knows how to bowl on every single pitch in Australia, wonderful spinner. So yeah, it's a pretty no brainer for me.

He's got all the tricks up his books.

All the tricks up his sleeve.

I mean Clyde again a bit like, not necessarily a comment on Sher Bashir as much but more on what Nathan Lyon has, has done here in the same way we had the discussion with Stokes and Webster.

Oh, without a doubt. You know, he's just a quality player. He's a big part of the team, leads the team song. So he's, he's massive in Australia. 562 Test wickets now. So that in itself just speaks volumes. So he knows his game so well. He's, you know, incredibly confident. The only sort of negative thing is, you know, whereas you had someone like Shane Warne who would just attack, attack, attack the whole time. Aggressive fields, he can get a little bit defensive. He likes putting the guys back straight fairly early. But apart from that, you know, he's, he's up there with the best in the world.

Just on that then if, if there is a if, if Cummins isn't captain and Smith is captain, will that change any demands on Lyon and how attacking his captain might want him to be?

It'll be interesting but I think the way the, the Australian, you know, captains have always worked. They've used their senior players really well and got good advice. So Steve Smith still has a fair bit to say even when Pat Cummins is captain. So I don't think the dynamics and the thought processes will change too much, but maybe a little bit more aggression, which I think would be a good thing.

Can I just say something very, very quickly?

Yeah.

Chapters. I think, I think the way my England top seven that I've picked play Nathan Lyon is going to be very, very crucial to the outcome, you know, it's so wily, so experienced, but if they can look to take him down and then look not give him wickets when they've almost sort of, you know, got in the ascendancy, that's where it's going to be tricky, you know what I mean? They've got to sort of know when to go and know when to hold if they can get on top of Nathan Lyon. And that means those big quicks can't quite just settle in and then go and have a rest. Going to be crucial.

Yeah, it's Nathan Line. It's an easy one really. But you could argue if you look at all the different facets of both teams, Bayern's pretty similar in a way. You could argue that England have got a bit more power, but Australia have got players that know to play the Australian. I think the bowling in terms of the quicks, Australia have got more experience. So you have to say that Australian quicks are probably just a little bit more experienced, obviously in Australian conditions. The glaring, obvious one for me is that Nathan Lyon is world class and England don't have a world class spinner. So if the pitches just offer a little bit of grab, I go back to the last Ashes series in 23 where Nathan went off at Lords in that second Test match. But in the first Test at Esgbaston, in the second innings when England were dominating, England gifted him a FIFA and that was really where Australia won the game in England batting in the second innings. And if England think they can just play all the trick shots and dance down and wipe Nathan Lyon with the bigger boundaries and he will play the in out fields, you could see that Nathan Line will have a really good time of it. So it's really, really important for England that they play Nathan Line, not just in, in the basketball way. They've just got to milk him, just milk him, keep him out there, don't give them any wickets because if he starts to get on a roll, he'll have a tremendous series.

Before we get down to the individuals here on the seamers, which again you're going to be able to debate because England have a lot of options, I suppose when it comes to their seamers. But is this the as Michael has sort of build it there, Glenn, is this the experience and the know how of the Australian seamers against the variety because they're bringing a whole load with them and the pace of the England attack?

Well, it is. And you look at that whole Australian bowling attack, you've got over 1500 Test wickets there, which is absolutely massive. And that experience plays a big part. Mitchell Stark over 400 test wickets. Josh Hazwood about to take 300, Pat Cummins 300. So they're numbers not to, you know, to just dismiss so that the quality, the way they work together. And when you've got a unit, you know, four bowlers there, that, that unit bowling together. I know Pat Cummins may not be there, but that builds confidence. And, you know, even in the batting lineup, you know, you've got bowlers that take 20 wickets. So it does have a big impact.

Which attack would you rather captain? And this is before we get to the either ors here, so. But the attacks, for the purposes of this exercise are Atkinson, Wood and Archer for England and Cummin, Stark and Hazelwood for Australia. Which one would you rather captain?

Australia.

Why?

Quite easily. All right, because of the experience. I mean, Glenn's just listed off the amount of wickets that the quartet have got. And then you've got a world class spinner. I want a world class spinner in my attack because you can just change up the play, you can change the pace of the game. And when you've got Cummins, who can bowl, new ball, old ball gets the reverse swing, you can go to the short stuff. Then you got Stark whole. He's such a threat with the new ball. And then with that old ball, he gets it tailing away from the right handers into the left handers. And Josh Hayswood is a bowler that we don't talk enough about. He is world class. So it's quite an easy one for me. I want to captain the Aussie one.

Okay? So when I do Atkinson against Cummins, which is the first one here, is that obvious given Cummins record 91 wickets against England in 19 matches? No one has dismissed Joe Root more times in test matches.

Yeah, Gus Atkinson's been great. So it's slightly unfair. It's not anything on what Gus Atkinson's done because he's had a tremendous start to his test career. But he's up against one of the greats, you know, he really is. He's won a World cup in India as a skipper, you know, in test match cricket over the course of the last four years, every time Australia have needed something, whether it's been a wicket, a run out, a few runs down the back end at Edgbaston in 2023, Pat Cummins has delivered as a captain as well. So it's quite an eas easy decision. But it doesn't take anything away from how good A cricketer Gus Atkinson is either.

Is this another Aussie in your lineup here Philip?

Yeah, afraid so. Afraid so. I mean I totally agree with my, you know he can bat as well down the order Gus Atkinson and he's, he's burst onto the scene and, and sort of made himself feel very much at home, hasn't he? But yeah, Pat Cummings for me I think, I think a lot of it is to be going, going to just come down to this England bowling attack. If they can just get on that sort of momentum, if they get on that roll, you know, you know with the pace of Archer with wood, if they can start rustling a few feathers, you know and it's going to be interesting to see how they sort of chop and change because they can't all play for the five test matches. But you know that Australian bowling line.

The one thing Phil that don't get much, the one thing that can. I know all the ex players about England. I not playing enough warm up games. The one concern I have about the warm up game is they're going to play the Lions and they're going to play at Lilac Hill. Now anyone that's been to Lilac Hill, the bulge doesn't bounce above knee height. And then a week after they're playing a test match at the Perth Stadium. Now India last year when they went over to the Perth Stadium won. Well they had a two day game amongst themselves but it was at the Waka which was the same kind of pitch that they played in the Perth Stadium. So the one concern that I would have is that it's not about the batters also getting used to the bounce, it's the bowlers bowling that length. And in the last few years in Australia actually hitting the top of off stump has been the most important ball. We're talking about pace, we're talking about bounce, of course you might need that. But over the last few years in Australia the best bowlers have been those pitch up bowlers that have brought the batters forward. And my concern maybe with the preparation is that the batters won't have played on pitches that bounce and the bowlers will bowl just a little bit shorter because of the bounce. If you don't get your lengths right in Perth, you know and it might be the first 15 overs which are the most crucial overs to get it right. If you get it wrong you could lose a test match by getting it wrong in those first 15 overs. So that's the one area I'm not an old schooler, say they should play three Warm up games, those days have gone. But just think, the one warm up game that they play, it concerns me that they're going to be playing on a pitch that hardly bounces.

Cummings for you, I'm guessing Glenn.

Yeah. Again like the boys have said, it's a bit of a no brainer. Just his experience what he offers if he's not playing, that's a big blow to Australia because he offers something different from Stark, from Hazelwood. Jesse Engels, he comes in, the ball's always angling into off stump and then sort of straightening off the pitch or continuing on. So he's quality, he's led from the front and his stats speak for themselves.

Stark or Wood? Glenn.

I love Woody. I think he's a brilliant bowler. He gives 100% every single second he's out in the field and I love his attitude and the way he goes about it. But yeah, Mitchell Stark, to me when he's on song, he can just destroy teams. He can just blast teams out. That new ball, swinging ball, such aggressive lines and lengths. Yeah, he's got that much ability and skill. He, you know, I always put. Was he macram? As the most skillful bowler I've ever seen and you know Starkey's right up there beside him and in the conditions and if he's bowling well, he can destroy teams. So I'm going Mitchell Stark but I'm a big fan of Woody.

God, for one minute I thought you were going to add to the chaos by sticking was a macrame into this team. Just put the, put the tin hat on everything that would, I wouldn't have disagreed with you but it would have been complicated. Phil.

Yeah, not going to disagree with Mr. McGraw there, I'm afraid. You know the variation, we keep talking about it, the experience and what have you make some nice little footmarks for. For Nathan Lyon as well, which is always handy for the spin bowler. Yeah, wonderful bowler. Got, got that swing and you know, pace. Yeah, easy. Mitchell Star.

Yeah, Mitchell Stark. I mean Woody's. I'm just delighted that he's. I'm delighted he's on the plane. You know, apparently he's been at Loughborough bowling which is great. If we can get three test matches out of Mark Wood, he's the kind of bowler that can create a huge amount of impact. Again you go back to 23 when England were two nil down and suddenly wokes and Wood came into the side, particularly at Hedda, that spell that he bowled down the hill to Khawaja. If we can get four or five of those kind of spells over the course of five matches. I think he'll play a big part. But you have to go Mitchell Stark.

And then finally, then that leaves us off Joffre Archer and Josh Hazelwood, which has been quite. Out of all of the sort of three on the website, that's the one that's gone in the favour of the English bowler. But going back to your point, is that because we don't talk about Hazelwood enough?

Yeah, I mean Joffre is, he's like Mark Wood. We're not going to get five test matches out of Joffrey. We can get three and he can produce two or three spells like we saw to Steve Smith in the Ashes series at Lords. Of course he's going to create a huge impact in favour of the English team. But you can't look beyond Josh Hazwood. I mean he's absolutely world class across all the formats. So consistent. Saw him bowl just yesterday against the Indian one day team in Perth and I thought, oh no, that's exactly what England going to face. Just around off stump. He's going to get the extra bounce, the oddball nip back, the odd ball will nip away and there'll be some nice big pairs of hands waiting the outside. I will be picking Josh Hazelwood.

I'm guessing you've gone all Australian attack here, Glenn.

Yeah, obviously Hazelwood is just quality. He just goes about his business. He rarely bowls a bad ball and no one really talks about it. So he just flies under the radar there. He's one of the best shorter game bowlers in the world. He can adapt to the conditions and just bowls so well day in, day out. Yeah. The big thing for me is going to be England going to be Woody and Archer if they're fit, how, how many games they're going to play. They're going to have to play quite a few if England are a chance.

Phil?

Well, I mean I've got to agree with the guys, interesting bites. Just say that the pitches, you know, it might England have gone over there with this and they've been saying in the build up and they for years now that we've got to get pace, pace, pace, pace and all, you know, like Wood and Archers steaming in and let's hit them with bouncers and this Hazelwood, he just hits that top of off stump, keeps you honest all day long. He has the pace to sort of like worry you as well with the short ball but he's just missed the consistency. So you can't look Beyond Josh Hazelwood.

Right, then if I now try and put together what the three of you have eventually ended up with. Crawley and Duckett, it.

Yep.

Right. I'm going on majority. If it's not unanimous. Okay. Green, Smith and Brook Stokes. Then. There was a difference of opinion on the wicketkeeper, but Phil and Michael both went with Jamie Smith. So Smith is in there, then Lyon and Cummins, Stark and Hazelwood unanimous on or every from 6 to 11. Unanimous on everything bar the wicket keeper. The website. CrawleyDucket, Greenroot, Brook, Stokesmith, Cummins, Stark, Lyon and Archer. So not that much. Not that much different, but there we are. Thank you. Good to see you, Glenn. Talk plenty, I'm sure, over the next two or three months.

Yeah, looking forward to it. And great to see the Aussies even got up on this one. Sort of six to five. So it's looking good for the Ashes.

What's your prediction, Glenn? I haven't heard it yet.

Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's like we've done today. The Australian top order is going to be interesting, but the bowling is strong. England top order looking pretty good, but they're bowling, you know, see who's going to be on the park. So I think every game's going to come down the wire. It's going to be pretty close with Australia just getting over the line in every single game. So I'm five nil.

Thanks to Michael, Phil and Glenn. We got there in the end. Make sure you subscribed on BBC Sounds. You'll never miss an episode. Why would you want to miss an episode after one like that? You can listen to every moment of the Ashes on the BBC. And Test Match Special will be live from Perth for the Ashes opener, so you won't miss a thing.

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