Can Fleming and Root bring success to England?

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This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, welcome to the TMS Podcast with me, James Gregg, reflecting on the news last week that Stephen Fleming has announced as England's new England Test head coach, and Joe Root will once again be the Test captain. With me, former England bowlers Stephen Finn and Alex Hartley, the former England captain, Sir Alistair Cooke. Lovely day outside, nice day for an ice cream, Alex.

I've not got over that yet. You'd think that I would have grown up and remembered the age-old trick of, "What's that smell like?" Finney, you were part of that, weren't you?

I was, yeah, and I was trying to do my lead commentary and was completely distracted by Alex's ice cream on her face and the conversation about lime sauce. TMS is alive and well.

Cookie, have you seen this?

I was there.

You were there?

I was there. I was just laughing at how someone could fall for something quite so silly.

If you've not seen it, I don't know if you have, because Alex, unfortunately for you, it's gone quite aggressively viral, that clip, hasn't it? It has. Basically, if anybody's been asked to smell what an ice cream is whilst they're holding it, well, they'll feel your pain, won't they? But let's get stuck into that news that broke last Thursday. Stephen Fleming appointed as the new England Test head coach, replaces his former New Zealand teammate Brendan McCullum. Uh, Joe Root has been made captain for a second time, 4 years after stepping down. We'll get into that more later on this hour, but let's just focus on Fleming himself, uh, for the first part of the program. He's going to take charge after England's 3-match Test series against Pakistan. Marcus Trescothick is going to be in charge for that series, so the first Test for Fleming will come on England's tour of South Africa in December. He's a former New Zealand Test captain. He played over 100 Tests and he's made his name recently coaching in franchise cricket with the Chennai Super Kings and they've actually won 5 IPL titles, which is a record. So initial thoughts, everybody, on Steven Fleming. We'll start with you, Finny.

Yeah, look, I think that the decision or the process to appoint the head coach was maybe took a little bit longer than people thought, which maybe makes it seem as though it was more complex than, um, than you initially thought, than just picking your person and, and getting them into the job. Clearly there are nuances, um, and the fact that he's not starting until December in that series in South Africa I think is a nod towards that and them taking their time to make sure that they get the right person. Um, and yeah, I think from the outside— and he's actually one of the few people that I've not really come across in professional cricket that much, um But you hear stories about how as a coach he's a great people person, he commands respect when he speaks, he's well thought out, he's balanced, and he works hard. I think that those things put into a melting pot make it sound like he'll be, he'll be a very good Test head coach. So it'll be really interesting to see how he grows into that role, what his relationship with the media is like, which is a huge thing for an England, England coach in this country. And I really do hope that it's a success because we all want to see England winning.

Alex?

Yeah, I think backing up everything Finney said, my only thing is that we knew he was available. So, you know, there's been chats on the fact that Flower was asked and he said no. And obviously you have to be available to coach England, and you've got— it's a huge, huge commitment and one that, you know, he signed a 4-year deal, so, you know, he's got to be free and available. He'll left that CSK role. So there is a part of me that's like, is it? Yes, he's a brilliant coach. Yes, he's been really successful, but he is also one of the few that are available for it.

Is that the way you see it, Sir Alistair?

I see it as a bit of a quandary that ECB have found themselves in, that because they got rid of Brendan McCullum, who I don't think many people outside have got a bad word to say about it, over, you know, if you're having drinks and a beer with him. But in terms of coaching, he's still there in the one-day side. So it was almost a bit of a point where someone has to be able to work with Brendan McCullum, and why not get someone who knows him really well? So that relationship between Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCullum obviously goes back a long way. They're not just friends from playing together, they're in business together as well. So I think that is actually one of the hurdles overcome quite quickly. They don't have to build that relationship. I think the split coaches throws up a lot of those quandaries and a lot of unanswered questions and questions which are hard to answer. In the history of split coaches, we've had it a couple of times with England with Andy Flower and Ashley Giles and then Mott and Trevor Bayliss where it doesn't quite— sorry, Mott and Brendan McCullum doesn't quite work that easily. So I think it was a case that once Andy Flower said no to the job because he couldn't he couldn't do it properly between the IPL and his job with the IPL and his franchise cricket and the England job, which I think is full-on. I still think England would have let him do that, but he shows that he is, you know, he knows how hard that to be the head coach of a Test team, or especially England, is. That is a full-time job. So he ruled himself out, I think, because of that. And then it was because who else could do it? So Fleming, as I said, I'm a bit like with Stephen Finn. I have played against him a couple of times. Last time when I was 20, 21, so a long time ago. So I haven't had much to do with him, but only heard good things about him.

Cookie, you were captain when the roles were split in 2013 between Andy Flower and Ashley Giles. What are the challenges for those coaches? Because you'd have been privy to those conversations then.

Good job I can't remember half of them, Steven. The issue is obviously when you're in charge of one aspect of whether it's white ball or red ball, you want the best for that side, and it's really hard sometimes to see the bigger picture. So the negotiations which went on between what player could be available and what player isn't available, and certainly the direction of the whole setup. And at the time when we were involved, the red ball was at the absolute, you know, the forefront of everyone's thinking, and the white ball was a bit of a, you know, a secondary thought. So everything was dedicated to that, and Andy Flower, uh, is— was a very dominant figure in that relationship. So Ashley Giles was kind of backed into a bit of a corner, and it didn't quite work. And Ashley Giles was a very good coach as well. So it, it became this situation impossible to manage. I, I'm intrigued how it works. I'm intrigued how it works because naturally, no matter how Rob Key or whoever from the ECB want to broadcast the whole how good the relation is going to be. Players will always prefer one coach than another. That is the natural element of it. Whether that's because your team is winning more than the other team or there are more members of the senior setup, which is how most sides are run, prefer one coach than the other. I'll be intrigued to see how that relationship works. And I don't think you can be scared of saying it. That's where Rob Key really has to come into his his own.

We're going to hear then now, as promised, the thoughts of England's director of men's cricket, Rob Key. As mentioned, he was speaking to Henry Moran on Friday about the appointment of Stephen Fleming.

The start of it, we probably had, what, 3, 4 different people, and I never look at things like first choice. It's different styles, different identities, different ways of doing things, and Stephen Fleming, I think, is the best person for exactly what we need.

Not Andy Flower? He was never somebody you wanted?

Not Andy Flower. I spoke to Andy Flower as well. He made it very clear that he didn't want to put himself into the process, which was fine. I appreciated his honesty, but I couldn't be happier with Stephen Fleming. I think he's absolutely the right person, and I think when people get to see him, they'll realize just how good he is.

Who else was in the frame, particularly where are the England coaches?

I interviewed a number of England coaches, actually. I'm not going to go into who because I don't think that's fair for them as much as anything else, and it's It was a really good process as well to start understanding, and part of when Stephen Fleming and I started speaking with each other, that was a really important thing for him as well, to make sure that we connect with that game, that he connects with the domestic game, English coaches. It's been a problem for some time in English sport, whether you have people at the very top of these jobs who are from England, whether you go overseas for them, and actually it's our job to make sure that when these jobs come up that you do have English candidates who are top of the list. The very first thing that I had to do was get the best coach for this job, and I believe we've got that, irrelevant of where they come from.

Some might argue it's been a wasted Test summer in terms of the leadership, given that there was this interim period, I suppose.

No, I don't agree with that. You never know what might have happened if we'd have done it a different way. I think we've now got Fleming and McCullum A white ball side that's what, just got to number 1 in the world in T20 cricket. That's a new generation a year and a half into a project with Ben and— sorry, with Harry and Brendan. They've just beaten what, the world champions in ODI cricket. I think in the Test summer, you never know. We've still got plenty of time to come. You never quite know what would happen if we'd have made different decisions. We may not be in this position now where we've got, I think, the 2 best coaches go.

There are some that say, well, McCullum's gone, Stokes is gone. How's Rob Key survive?

That's probably not a question for me. My job is to go out there and try and find and do the right thing that I think, or bring the right people in to go out there and help us sustain some success for this England team, whether it's white ball formats or Test match cricket. Whether I should have survived or not, or how I did That's a question for the people above me.

Who approached Joe Root? Whose decision was that?

So throughout the process with a number of the candidates, you're asking these questions. I was very clear that I believe the process had to be coach first, captain second. The coach has to feel that he's got a say in who's coming in. So Steven and I spoke about that at length and we both agreed actually that Joe was the best person to do it. We clearly spoke to Joe as well. And his enthusiasm. I think the opportunity that he feels to continue something on that Ben Brendan had started, to refine it— yes, he's now got, I believe, one of the most experienced coaches of international players going. He's got one of the best coaches, if not the best coaches, that he's going to get to work with in Stephen Fleming. So I, I can't wait, and there's nobody who deserves a great period more than Joe Root.

Do you worry about his form?

I think he's the greatest player we've ever had with the bat, and every single time that he's had adversity or anything, the one constant has been his game. I think there's two ways to look at it. He could end up— this could be the thing that spurs him on for even longer. He's our— he's the best batter I've ever seen play for England, and I think he'll continue Just finally, when can we judge this new phase?

At what point will you say, yeah, this is, this is the point where we can say whether this has worked?

There's sort of two ways to answer that. When will you judge it? Probably in the first test against Pakistan and on from there, and then every day since. To me, it's about making sure that this team, the refinement that you want to see, batters that go out there, make good decisions, score runs, and play innings that win test matches for England. A bowling attack that is relentless, does the basics really, really well with all the skill and attributes that they have. That's how I judge things, and hopefully that takes care of results. And clearly the big moment comes with that Ashes series next summer, but you want it to be— you want it to go on for longer than that. Australia's dominated cricket for a long time. India are going like that. We need to be up there as well.

That's England's director of men's cricket, Rob Key, speaking to the BBC's Henry Moran. He didn't really answer the question about whether Stephen Fleming was first choice or not there, Alex.

No, well, you know, I think he was right in saying he interviewed other people and he's not going to say who they were for their own, you know, come out and say that they went for the job or not. So that's not for him to say. We all sort of knew the rumor was that Flower was first choice, and you know, Andy Flower has been so successful over the last few years, but it doesn't mean to say that Fleming isn't the right choice, which is exactly what Keith said there.

He said a lot of things there that I think a lot of county cricket fans, Ali, will basically— they'll like to hear, because there was a lot of talk prior to this Test summer about Brendan McCullum and the fact that he was only arriving— was it the 31st of May, I think, wasn't it? His plane arrived from New Zealand and there's an argument there that actually after a long winter, he deserved a break. Everyone needs a break. But the County Championship season was, what, 7 weeks in at that point. So that connecting with the domestic game, I think was the quote that Rob Key used there. How important is that?

Sorry, was that to me? I haven't been called Ali for ages. Well, the one thing that they— we can't have anymore is obviously now with two coaches, the attention to detail and the lack of planning, I suppose, over the last two years, which has kind of got to where we are, the reason why we're at where we are, this England team, because now they've got no excuse for it. So, you know, the coaches have been allowed— Brendan McCullum, in my opinion, has been kind of allowed to do what he wants. Do what he wanted to do. And if he can get away with turning up a week before and not watch any county cricket, then why wouldn't you do that? But now with two coaches, there's plenty of time for preparation, there's plenty of time for planning, and there's no excuse not to be the best prepared team going.

And Finney, I think, you know, I look at somebody like— remember when Eddie Jones was the England Rugby Union head coach and he'd be at pretty much every Premiership game up and down, you know, he'd be popping up at Ashton Gate and then the next thing he'd be at the Stoop and it was like, how many places can he be at once? Is that, is there something in that with cricket or is it just kind of keeping in touch? Do you need to be there constantly and showing face? Like how much are county coaches and players taking notice of how often the Test coach is keeping an eye on them?

Well, they'd have to use some of this 100 money to buy a helicopter, I think, to zip the coach around to all those grounds. But I think it is important to have visibility. And the thing about seeing the England head coach or the England director of cricket at your domestic game when you're bowling or when you're batting, it gives you hope. And that's the one thing that I think in the last couple of years of when McCullum and Stokes were together at the helm, I'm not sure domestic cricketers had that hope. That a run of 6 good games would put them in contention to, um, to play international cricket. And I think that that's wrong. So, um, to try and connect the game back up— and there were actually a couple of selections in, in that first Test match, Emilio Gay, Ollie Robinson, um, who both performed well in that Test series against, um, New Zealand, um, or in the first Test anyway, until they lost the last 2. But, um, the, um, that, that connection and that hope that it gives county cricketers, I think, is, is the thing that's most important. But The question now is Stephen Fleming isn't doing this Pakistan series, so he's not going to be in the country, I presume, otherwise he'd be coaching the, the team. He starts in December. There's no domestic cricket from the end of September until December for him to watch, to then be able to form his opinion on players. So he's going to be relying a lot on the scouting network and on head selector Marcus North to be his eyes and ears to pick his team, because As Cookie knows, who selected those teams and being a captain, they will go to South Africa with a squad that they think will be the squad when they play the Ashes in the middle of the summer. Fleming's not going to have watched any domestic cricket before then.

Will he be aware of the names, the runners and riders? Because it's not like he needs to be across every player, right? You know, there's that tier that are pushing. So it's a bit easier than it first sounds, isn't it, Finny?

Well, it is, but also you want your team to have an identity and you don't just want to come in as a head coach and a new captain now and say, well, we're just going to continue as we were. And that doesn't mean picking 11 different players, but it means coming in with an idea of what you want the balance of team to be. And actually, that is the biggest thing that these guys are going to have to come up with since Ben Stokes has retired. There's no one in the country as a seam bowling all-rounder or a batter who bats number 6 and can bowl you 20 overs of seam in a day. There are people vying for that spot, but there's no one absolutely jumping off the page at you. And that is going to require a lot of diligence from the selectors to make sure that by the end of the summer they've got that spot sewn up. If they're not going to use an all-rounder, they're going to have to alter the balance of the team, which again is another huge decision.

Well, I don't think selection's, you know, been too far off. I think you're not going to see a huge change of players. Finney's right, you're going to have to find someone to replace Ben Stokes, I would imagine, you know, you'll end up with a batting all-rounder who bowls a bit of spin as part of that change because you can't replace Ben Stokes like that. So you end up— it goes back a little bit when, you know, Graham Swan left the England team in 2013. You know, we didn't have an out-and-out spinner, you know, who could do that role. So we end up picking Moeen Ali to do that role, you know, a guy who could bowl a bit of spin but could also score a lot of runs as well. And then he actually developed into a fine, fine off spinner and played such a crucial, crucial role for us as a side. And actually, over the last, you know, in the next 10 years, developed, you know, hugely. So I reckon England might go down that path, you know, pick a, pick a bowler, pick a batter who can bowl a bit and hope they develop. Because you're right, you know, you can't at this day and age, you have to go in the 4 seamers, gonna have 5 bowling options. And I see 4 seamers and spinners, you know, including you know, Root and Bethell to add balance to that side.

It's worth pointing out he's not actually played any Red Bull— coached any Red Bull cricket, I should say, before. Alex, is that a concern for you? You know, initially that's quite jarring, isn't it, seeing that?

Is it? I wouldn't say it's a massive concern because your coaching style is your coaching style. Like we've seen with Brendan McCullum, the way that he came in was like, I'm going to do it this way, and did it exactly that way. I think had he had some previous experience and been successful or not, we would have a better idea on what his, I guess, mantra or coaching style is going to be when it comes to the England Test side. We really don't know. Um, is that a good thing? It might well be. It might be the refresh that English cricket needs. Or, I mean, I was quite happy with Brendan McCullum being in charge, so it might not be what people wanted, but they've been forced into it. And it might just be that element of fresh face that gives everybody a new lease of life, maybe.

How difficult is it though, Finney, to actually shift a mentality away? You know, like Alex has said there, that Brendan McCullum knew what he was going to bring in and that was it. And Stephen Fleming is going to have his own way of wanting to do things and stamp his own identity on it. But baseball was, I mean, probably the most famous sporting identity in the world when Brendan McCullum first came in. So how do you then shift, you know, a group of players that isn't just 11 players but like maybe 20 players away from that approach?

Well, you have to bring the senior players with you. You have to find those big voices and those big characters within the dressing room. And as a coach, they are your best friends. They're the people that you get around and they get around you. And it's through the, the power of the masses that, that, that will spread through the dressing room. And I think that that's not something that I think Fleming will struggle with, because I think to have coached for as long as he did in the IPL at CSK, won 5 titles. But think of how strong the power of the owners is in the IPL. You're dealing with those guys all the time. You're dealing with captains, you're dealing with superstars. And I think that that prepares you well to come into a Test dressing room. And he's very well respected. I think that this isn't someone who's got no gravitas in the game coming in to coach England. He captained at 22, and then for the rest of his career he was New Zealand's captain. Played over 100 Test matches. Yeah, he has respect. He'll have his ideas. He'll have to be strong in getting those across to the players and the senior players, but I don't think that that will be a problem for him.

Rob Key says it's not been a wasted summer, but he's only going to have one home Test match as Steven Fleming, Alistair. That's against Bangladesh before the Ashes next summer. That opportunity then that we've kind of all touched on for a measured reset, to use that word again, that dominated everything a few months ago, and then a run-up into the Ashes next summer. That appears to have gone a little bit, doesn't it? Is it a wasted summer?

Well, the reset clearly isn't what they sat down in the boardroom and said, yeah, we'll get rid of our coach and the captain, but the coach will still stay and do the white ball stuff, is how they future planned. They found themselves in this situation. You know, I still, I'm amazed that Fleming isn't here for this series. There's a lot of time after this series for him to go and do whatever he did, needs to go and do the reasons why he can't be here for this 3 weeks, and it is only a 3-week period. So I mean, I would like to know more about why he's not here, but I have no doubt that Stephen Fleming will do a good job. Like, he is a, he is a man of who hasn't got a bad reputation. He's a guy who I think will do a good job, and in the situation that England have found themselves in, you know, he's the guy I would trust to take this side forward and hopefully like start, you know, building on what McCullum tried to do, refine it in a certain way, and play a brand of cricket which is exciting to watch yet can adapt I, I think it has been a wasted summer.

I really do. I, I agree with Cookie. I find it— I'm really surprised he's not here, um, for the series at the end of the summer. It's not the plan that we'd keep Brendan McCullum on, then we'd sack him halfway through the summer. That, that was obviously never the, the long-term plan. But therefore it has been a waste. If things were going to change, and things have— if you— I know hindsight's a beautiful thing, but at the end of the Ashes, if we'd have known what we know now you absolutely would have replaced Baz then, and then you would have a year leading into the Ashes to build Fleming's team in the way that he wanted. Whereas we've known from the Ashes just gone that they kept saying— but Brendan McCullum, Rob Keeley, Ben Stokes kept saying, I am judged on Ashes, we are judged on the Ashes, it's all about the Ashes. Well, poor Steven Fleming's going straight into an Ashes series. He can't be judged on the Ashes, surely.

Vinnie?

Yeah, it's a really tricky one, isn't it? Because the premise of keeping McCullum and Stokes together and key there in this summer was the hope of refinement. And actually, in the first Test match at Lord's, I walked away from it thinking, well, they've kind of refined their approach here. They've picked some guys from domestic cricket who've come and done well. They played the situation much better. They outfielded New Zealand, which is which is something that doesn't always happen in that first Test match. And you walked away with great positivity, but then it was the, the lack of discipline away from the pitch on that night out in Chelsea that has then bled into everything else falling apart in those next two Test matches. And it went down in a blaze, didn't it? So at the end of that, it's not surprising that, that it felt like something was going to give at the end of that series, even after Stokes had had stood down. I'm just with Cookie. I, I'm not sure. I, I have— I've done my reading and I can't find the reason why Fleming isn't here for, um, for this series. But I think it would be a great opportunity for him to get a head start. Um, yeah, but he, but he's not here.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I want to get a bit of a feel for what his first few weeks in charge actually, well, whenever that may be, actually, what that entails, because he's gonna have to do a lot of firefighting and a lot of it's probably, Alistair, a bit of PR, isn't it? You know, so sort of smoothing over things like the Chelsea night out and promising that things like that aren't going to happen again, if he can promise such a thing, because Brendan McCullum did that and about a week later it all blew up and went down in flames like Finney said.

Yeah, so I'm not sure that's Steven Fleming's job. If he was turning up in December, you know, there must be a reason why Rob Key's allowed him to turn up in December. To me, that's down to Rob Key. You know, he's the director of cricket. He oversees now two coaches, and he has to— he's the one for me has to answer those questions, not Steven Fleming. You know, I think I heard somewhere saying that he didn't want to He didn't want to just narrow the people who were available for Pakistan. So Fleming must have come in and said that he's not available for Pakistan. I can start from December if you want me from there, I will do that. And England have bowed down to that. There's been an element of that over a period of time for me on this England setup that's been allowed to happen. You know, I actually heard a great quote. I read that quote from McCullum saying, oh, I'm going to stick around and watch a bit of white ball cricket now to see the next generation of players. I was like, well, yeah, he's been here for 4 years, maybe he could have stood around and watched a bit of Red Bull cricket as well. You know, that's— it's little things like that which, you know, there's only little things which I just think need to just be tightened up. Look, there's a huge amount of talent in this England setup in all forms of the game. I watch The Hundred and I look at some of the domestic players and think, yeah, they're really good players. I watch some county cricket and yeah, they're not the names that everyone's heard of. I think, yeah, do you know what, there's some really good players. And I look at the Test team and I go, there's some fantastic cricketers around there. And it's only small details which I think could change, you know, a huge amount. And that's not guaranteeing success because, you know, there's so many other good sides. There's other, you know, in the world with a huge amount of talent as well. And we've got no God-given right just to go, just because we're England, that we're going to win lots of games of cricket. But I think there's a lot of us who watch a bit of this, have watched a lot of cricket over the last 2 or 3 years and gone, I'm not sure we're seeing the best version of the players we're watching. And I think that's what has frustrated the public and the people watching.

I just worry of which coach takes priority in a year where you've got an Ashes series and the 50-over World Cup. World Cup. That's where my concern is moving forward. I've got no doubt that Brendan McCullum's going to do a great job with the white ball team moving forward. We know he's very passionate about that, and he knows there's so much talent. And I love the way that they're starting to win 50-over cricket again. Um, but there's an Ashes series where Fleming's in charge, and there's World Cup where McCullum's in charge. And I, I worry about that crossover of players and who— which coach has the bigger ego and which coach wants to be more dominant, that's where I worry about them sharing this role.

I mean, look, we're all journalists now, we're sat here as retired players, and the first question that I would ask Fleming is, what's your style? What do you stand for? And I think that when you go back to your original question about what's his first thing in his inbox, what's number one, what's his priority? And what's he going to have to convey to people to make people believe in him? Because the public have lost a lot of trust in the England Test team, so he's going to have to try and drag them along with him. They're going to have to try and drag the ex-players along with, with them. And I think it's going to be what is your style and how are you going to instill the discipline into the Test match team to make the most of the talent that Cookie's talking about? And And then getting the right players in those slots is going to be crucial as a secondary thing as well.

Without going all England football team, what about the fact that it's another non-English coach? Is that something that is concerning or just unlucky this time around?

It's not— I don't care. I really don't care. I didn't support England less this World Cup because they had Tuchel as manager. I actually really agreed with what he stood for, and I really liked him as a coach. And you want the best person for the job, and I think it's a shame that we don't— obviously through the process haven't deemed an English coach worthy of that position. But I think if you've got someone of the stature of Stephen Fleming wanting the role, I have absolutely no qualms in giving it to him.

I agree, apart from the semi-finals, apart from the semi-finals, Stephen, where he went, he parked the bus, he didn't need to. I know so much about football that of course I'm allowed to comment on it. The one— this is where again I keep going back to, you know, that now the Rob Key role on this, because Brendan McCullum and Stephen Fleming don't have that emotional attachment to the England side, so they will concentrate on the 2 years or the 3 years, you know, obviously McCullum's been here for 4 years, he'll be thinking, right, I've got this World Cup to go to, and after that World Cup, I actually— he probably will, you know, most people, the cycle says 5, 6 years and then they leave, and he probably— no, he doesn't care about England cricket, but he'll be on to something else. Well, Steven Fleming, similar. Like, he's here for this short period of time. To me, it'll be like, right, Rob Key's the guy who's responsible for, you know, the long-term development of English cricket, and that's kind of part of his title. So down to the best coach, they've obviously interviewed, they decided that he is the best coach. I don't mind whether he's English or whatever nationality, of course you know, you'd love English guys to get their opportunities, and I'm sure at some stage they will over the next couple of years. People like Jonathan Trott has been spoken of very, very highly of a coach. But in this particular example with Brendan McCullum and the influence he's had over the last 4 years, I thought it had been a very tough call to employ someone who hasn't kind of worked with McCullum before.

I think from my point of view, I'm with exactly the same as these two. As a player, as a fan, as a journalist, as anyone that watches sport, you just want your team to win. That is literally it. All of us on this call just want England to win. And if they start winning, it doesn't matter who helps them do it, as long as they're doing it.

So a new face as England's Test coach, that's what we've been talking about for most of the programme. A very familiar one as Test captain, Joe Root, back for a second spell. He was captain for 64 Tests Tests, um, stepping down in 2022 after a series defeat against the West Indies. England at that time were in the middle of 9 Tests without a win. It's worth remembering though, he has won more Tests as skipper than anybody else. In his first match since being announced as England's new captain, all eyes were on him of course. He was, um, at Edgbaston, wasn't he, on Saturday? Unbeaten, 58 he scored as the Welsh Fire beat Birmingham Phoenix. And afterwards he was asked about becoming England captain again.

It's great, you know, it's one of the greatest honours you could possibly wish to have and I'm very excited by it. You know, I'm in a very different place the last time I did it with a team in a very different position. Very excited to work with Steven as well. Clearly admired him from afar for a long time, firstly as a player and recently as a coach. So for us to get the chance to do that and work together is going to be great for us. You know, and hopefully we can, we can work and build on a lot of good things that have happened over the last 4 years. I think Brendan and Ben did a brilliant job in many ways of turning things around and getting us to a position where hopefully now we can, we can carry that forward in a, in a slightly different way.

When you were first approached, was there ever any doubt?

No, not really. Once I'd spoken to Stephen about it and, you know, saw his energy and his excitement for it and the fact they were very aligned on it, You know, I got very excited very quickly.

So yeah, and it's going to be a busy few weeks already in the Hundred into a Test series. How are you coping with it?

How are your energy levels?

Good. I mean, if you can't get energized by that, then I don't know what you can. So clearly it's going to be quite a different start to a series. It's going to be a very short leading for the group, and making sure we manage that well is going to be important. But, you know, sometimes just getting straight back into it it's a good thing. So I'm looking forward to getting the group together when it is time and focus on that Test series. But for the little short while now, it's about trying to get the most out of this tournament and take the team forward as much as we can.

And just finally, now you're the oldest statesman in every team you're playing in. It's a slightly different role.

Circle of life, innit? It's gonna happen at some point. So, no, it's just good to be still playing and enjoying it and, you know, hopefully contributing as well. So hopefully that can stay that way for a good while yet.

I like what he says there, it'll happen to us all. Feel that, Joe, definitely. England's new Test captain speaking to Henry Moran. Alistair, you're in the unique position of having both captained him and been captained by him in that same position also that he's been playing under in the fact that his own successor in Ben Stokes was then his skipper. I saw what you said on the telly last night. You made some really good points actually that I'd forgotten about, about his first stint as captain. COVID, obviously that white ball focus which culminated in them winning the World Cup, which he was a part of as well. This time around, he's not without his challenges, um, because he's got some difficult cards dealt to him again though, doesn't he? But you were saying last night overall that he'll feel like he's at his best as a captain and he's probably still got a bit of captaincy battery left or it'll have recharged.

Well, that, that's the point I always make when I talk about leadership to a few people. It's like, actually, ironically, towards the end of your captaincy career, of all the experience you've learned and all the situations you've found yourselves in over those 4 or 5 years, and then right at the end, you're probably more equipped to handle any situation thrown at you, except that it's worn you down and you've had enough of it. And you don't want to do it anymore. Well, actually, Joe got to that stage. I think anyone who saw that last tour after the Ashes he had, and then he went to West Indies to try to hang on, saw those 3 games, knew that there was a change needed, and he recognized that and he stepped away. Like, he's found himself, for whatever situation, back into this leadership role. He will have that initial energy, absolutely. To do it with, apart with that, all experience from his 60-odd games he's done. He's seen how Ben has taken a different approach, and I think he'll take an element of that from that approach to, to his captaincy. I'm intrigued because he did captain that game at the Oval again, yes, in tough situations where after the nightclub incident where he had 3 people on debut and 5 changes, that's not an easy situation to be in. And there's periods of that play where tactically England got it wrong. And that's where Steven Fleming, I think, is going to have to play a huge part. Joe Root's got everything else, you know, ticked. He's got the respect of the media, he's got the respect of everyone who plays against him, he's got respect for the dressing room. It's just that there's a bit— like, like all captains, there's an element of the tactical nous, which I think he'll just need that little bit of help with. And that's where I think Steven Fleming, who's been around, you know, was renowned as a great captain for his 80 games, done all that you know, the IPL experience with Dhoni at Chennai, that's when I think Fleming has to really step up and help Joe Root. And he gets an opportunity, you'd say, over the next 12 months to, to be, you know, to captain England in an Ashes series and potentially win one, which is probably the only thing missing off Joe Root's CV, which I think will be a massive driver over the next 12 months.

Take yourself back to obviously when you then played under him. Let's say that you had to step back in for 6 months, 12 months, whatever, you know, Root ends up doing it for. How would you have felt? You know, would you have felt that the captaincy battery was there again? Because that seemed, that's sort of what you were implying actually a little bit last night, that, you know, I know that the, in cricketing terms, you were ready to finish, but it was, you know, you felt that actually the captain fatigue you'd have probably been able to give it a good go again, right?

I'm not sure I would have done. I can barely hit the ball towards the end, so let alone then captaining people again. So, but Joe is a totally different, I suppose, animal in this sense. You know, he keeps driving forward. I got to the end of my captaincy, realized the side needed the change and felt like the side needed the change, and then stepped aside. And then after, you know, 12 months later, I felt I need to step aside because I didn't I didn't have that drive and desire to kind of hit the standards that I had kind of set myself and the team needed from me and stepped away. Well, Joe's, after handing back the captaincy, and that is a tricky thing, and to then to be in a side captained by someone else with absolutely their different views because a different character, to then get into that role. And also he would have dealt with a lot of people saying, which they did, you go back and look at all those interviews saying, oh, this is the best captain I've ever played under, you know, Ben Stokes is the best environment I've been under. This is— and yet Joe would have sat in the dressing room going, well, that's kind of— it's kind of some very similar players that I was dealing with, and now they're changing. And yet he handled it, not one bit of moaning, not one bit of anything, and bought into the setup that he did. And that just shows how he is. So that's why he's wired a bit differently, you know. He's got this opportunity. I don't think he would have expected it, even after the Ashes you know, the reset in the Ashes. But he's got— he's thrown it now. I can see why they've thrown it to a safe pair of hands. And, you know, the situation of Harry Brook and the White Bull side and how that's developed over the last, you know, like 6 months. And, you know, the World Cup that's coming on, and you don't want to overburden someone like Harry. I think he's made quite a big step since this winter in terms of leadership and responsibility, and certainly allowed to grow. So I think it's— I don't think it's forever, this Joe Root captaincy. I don't think it will be particularly long, but it's a safe pair of hands with an exciting kind of new partnership with Steven Fleming, with the carrot of trying to win a home Ashes in 12 months' time.

I'm also really looking forward to seeing Joe Root on the back of him saying himself he's never enjoyed his cricket more under Brendon and Stokesy. So what he's learned and what he will then bring back into his captaincy. The fact that he was like, I'm loving playing cricket again, you know, it's fun, it's, you know, everything you dream of as a kid. So I love the fact that he was able to come out and say that. He has been able to come out and say that, and I'm intrigued on how that is going to affect his captaincy in a positive way.

Yeah, I mean, the guys have said most of, um, most that needs to be said. But yeah, the challenge for him is, is again that identity. How does he want his team to play? How's he going to put his, um, his stamp and his mark on it? And What a carrot. Ashes in 12 months' time, he could stand there and, yeah, put the cherry on top of the icing on top of the cake of his career. Well, actually, no, he still needs to go past Sachin Tendulkar, but it can be two cherries on top of the cake. A home Ashes win as a captain and going past Tendulkar's record.

I know he says publicly that that doesn't drive him, the Tendulkar record. I mean, it will do, I'm sure. Deep down somewhere, won't it? But does that also then take the pressure? I mean, he's not got any pressure on him, has he? Off anybody really, because he's got nothing to prove. But does being the captain this time around, does it allow him to just freewheel a little bit more, almost compartmentalize Joe Root, the batsman that we've had for the last 4 years, and Captain Joe Root? Will that help him draw a clearer line in the sand this time around, having having done it before, right?

Well, yes, but I'd imagine— and Cookie can speak with more authority on this than me, or yeah, complete authority other than me— but, um, you still want to score runs in your first game or couple of games as a captain. Um, and actually, of all the times in Joe Root's career, I think he's going through one of the leaner patches now. Um, and a lot of teams will be bowling with the wicketkeeper up to the stumps with medium pacers, and him and Harry Brook are having to find answers to questions that they've not been posed before in their career. So that is an undertone as well now that he's become captain. As soon as Mohammad Abbas gets a new ball in his hand and the wicketkeeper comes up to the stumps, he's going to be dealing with that from a playing perspective, the captaincy element of things, and trying to stamp his mark on the team again whilst then having to get together with Steven Fleming before December. So there, there are so many moving parts here, but that's why we love Test cricket, that there is always something happening.

Averages 46, well, nearly 47 when he was the skipper. Not captain, over 53. That's not really a massive surprise, Alistair, is it? But you're a man who's done both and knows the toll it takes on both.

No, I just go back to the point that you made just before, actually. Of course there's pressure. There's always, there's always pressure, no matter how many games you play, whether you played 100, 200, 5, whatever, there is pressure and there's expectation. So Joe, despite his record and despite how— what a servant he's been to the, you know, the English game, there's gonna— there's always gonna be questions when you're thrown into that responsibility. He knows that, he knows that. And it'd be no different. And I don't think, A, he's that type of character who just free-wheel it and just go, 'Well, what will be will be.' That's not how you score 14,000 test runs and keep driving yourself on one at 30, whatever age he is, 36 now, or whatever he is. So he won't freewheel it. He will demand the best for himself. And ultimately, over the next 12 months, he'll be thrown into situations where he will be under pressure. If he has a couple of low scores, guess what the first thing people will start talking about is? Captaincy affecting his batting. There is no hiding place, and that's what makes it such a tough job. I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued to see how he goes about it, how the side responds, and how Fleming works with Joe and Brendon over the next period of time, for the next 12 months, to see whether England can develop, you know, this forward push. To think what seems the most important thing is can England, you know, win an Ashes series back in England, which, you know, haven't done for a long period of time.

It's a very different group of players, isn't it? Alex and Finney and Alistair, actually, just listen to this. This is the team from Joe Root's last match as England captain. Alex Lees and Zak Crawley opened the batting. Root himself batted at 3. Dan Lawrence, Ben Stokes, Jonny Bairstow, Ben Foulkes, Chris Woakes, Craig Overton, Jack Leach, and Saqib Mahmood. That's very different now, isn't it? I mean, it just shows you that these waves come and go.

Yeah, they do. And I think one of the things that McCullum and Stokes did really well was that identify guys that came in and hit the ground running, especially in those first couple of years. They seemed like everyone that made their debut, they scored 100 or took a fiver. But yeah, the, the faces change, but Joe Root is just going to have to stamp his authority. Actually, one name on that list there that was in Joe Root's last Test match that might make a reappearance is Craig Overton, who is having an amazing year with the bat. Everyone knows what he can do with the ball, a very reliable seamer. So he is someone who, for that all-rounder role at number 7, he could be staking a claim with the way that he's upped his game with the bat this year. So yeah, maybe he'll bring one of his old boys back in his first Test bank.

I think it's not a bad thing that it's so different from when he last captained either, you know. I think the way that he'll have developed his game and his mindset, and you know, he'll go into captaincy slightly different probably. I don't think it's a bad thing that that team's completely different. You know, it's a fresh start then for everybody really. You know, that all the players that are about to play under Joe Root respect him and know that he's been England captain before and they're the greatest that we've ever had. And they're probably very much looking forward to being captained by Joe Root even though it is the second time around.

I'll ask you all one on something that Rob Key also said the other day about the possibility of Ben Stokes' return training for next summer's Ashes. It seems ridiculous that— what are we, about 3 or 4 weeks since Trent Bridge and he sort of bid his farewell— that I'm going to ask you all this question. But we all expected him to come back. Do you think we're going to see him, or is that actually dependent on how England are doing? Because if they're doing just fine, presumably there's no room for him. Isn't that right, Cookie?

I mean, that's been the day that he— the moment he announced his retirement, people kept saying, oh, I don't this is not the end. I felt it is. I'm not sure we're seeing Ben Stokes in England shirt again. I'm sure he's not listening to this at this precise moment in time, and maybe the fact that someone says he's not going to do it means that he might go, well, I'll show you. But I just feel, yeah, he's thrown everything into England and that England captaincy, and whatever happened in those last couple of weeks is not the way to go. You know, I'm sure in that reset, and we kept talking about how England found themselves in this situation. Well, I think after the reset when they backed McCullum, it was the Stokes would lead England for the next 18 months. And he's chosen not to lead England for whatever reason. But I just feel as if almost, you know, that story has been run. He's thrown everything into that England shirt over such a long period of time. I would be surprised. I will probably get proved wrong. For it. But I think that Ben Stokes, he'll be off and step away. And when you step away from England, it does take some adjustment, but you then realize that the shirt, however irreplaceable you feel as if you are when you're in the shirt, guess what? The side evolves and it moves on, and your life moves on. So I'm gonna stick— I have to— I can't jump horses now. And say any different, but I think we have unfortunately seen the last of Ben Stokes, and I hope he enjoys the next few years of cricket in slightly less pressurized situation.

Yep, I do agree. My head agrees with Sir Alistair there, but there is just— he's already come out of retirement once. He did it in 50-over cricket, and he answered the distress call from Joss Butler on the eve of the 2023 World Cup to come back back and play. Um, everyone knows how close of friends Root and Stokes are, and if Root found himself in a desperate situation where he had to send a text to Ben Stokes with just Ashes question mark, he might respond positively. So I wouldn't completely rule it out.

I, I don't know where I stand with it. I don't know where I sit, but what I do firmly believe is Rob Key saying he wouldn't be surprised if he came back makes me think something else has gone on behind the scenes. What that is, I don't know. Not heard anything, but it just doesn't all sit quite right with me.

That's it for this episode of the Test Match Special podcast. My thanks to Stephen Finn and Alex Hartley, Sir Alistair Cooke, and of course to you for listening. So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

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