County Championship: Joe Root talks Yorkshire's rout of Surrey

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello, I'm Kevin Howells. Welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast. The County Championship is in full flow and we've reached the end of the first 7 weeks of the season. To come, we'll hear from Joe Root, who talks us through Yorkshire's start to the campaign. I speak to Liam Dawson, who's saying goodbye to first-class cricket, plus McNewell at Nottinghamshire and head coach at Yorkshire, Anthony McGrath. But let's begin with England's record run-scorer Joe Root, who just come off the field having watched his Yorkshire side beat none other than Surrey by an innings and 127 runs, including taking 15 wickets on the previous third day.

Amazing how it unfolded. I don't think anyone anticipated the pitch playing like that, but I thought the way that we managed it and exploited it at different times to get that score was, was, you know, from being 120 on for 4, the two guys showing their seniority, their experience, getting us to that mammoth total. And then the way the bowlers, you know, really made the ball misbehave was outstanding. And, you know, we saw an opening, we created an opening, and we jumped on the opportunity. And I think that shows when we're playing close to our best that we can challenge against the best teams and we can be in a conversation at the back end of the season. So the challenge for the guys now is to roll out performances like that more regularly. Become, you know, a serious contender when, you know, at the pointy end of the season.

I know your family, from dawn on, your granddad, they'll make sure that you know about the history of the game, you know about what things— does Surrey mean a little bit more when you're putting on the Yorkshire shirt and taking on Surrey?

Yeah, always. I mean, as well, from my perspective, there's a lot of guys that I've played with in international cricket You know, there's a number of guys that I've spent winter tours with and, you know, played a huge amount with and shared memories with. So you want to make sure you get one up on them. And clearly, like you say, the history of the game too, probably the most successful teams in this format of the game. So you want to make sure you try and make points against them.

Yeah, of course. You've come back in, uh, to the Championship fairly early on a few weeks ago. How important is it, as you're growing up a little bit older, and of course your family will be growing a little bit older as well, to try and get that balance right? Because no doubt really you want to be out there every single minute you can be for Yorkshire. To get the balance right for you individually, because I'm sure it's pretty much left up to you now with all your experience, how do you still find it a little bit difficult to know when to rest, when to play, and all that sort of stuff?

It's something that I've got a lot better at over the last few years. I will admit I do find it difficult because there is a huge draw to come and play for Yorkshire, you know, whether it's with some of the young guys coming through and being able to try and, you know, impact their journey and their way into the first-class game and hopefully higher, as with the case with a number of the young, good young players we have here, or, you know, coming back and playing with guys like Adam Live and Jonny who I've grown up and I've known since being 12 years old. That's always an enjoyment factor, coming back and spending time with those guys. So it's tricky, but at the same time, you've got to manage your game. I'm contracted by England. There's an important Test schedule and an international summer ahead, and that has to be the priority, unfortunately. Well, unfortunately, whichever way you look at it.

I know what you mean.

So, you know, and also you look at the winter, the amount of time you spend away from home and away from your family, you want to make sure that you do get a break mentally and physically, you feel like you're in a good place and you can get through and at a certain level of performance throughout the whole summer. But mentally as well, making sure that you're nice and refreshed and, you know, you can really give everything you can to those games that you're playing in.

I wanted to talk to you about your county championship, um, figures here. I wonder whether you want to talk about your 96 or your 4 for 49, which is more important. But I've just seen below here this 111 not out in Colombo. Can I just say, again, against Sri Lanka, what an innings to watch that was. I mean, just, just stunning. I genuinely think sometimes we forget because it's there in front of us live, just, just what we are witnessing. That was just something very special. But from the England into the county cricket, do you feel it, it, it refreshes you? Do you feel refreshed to be amongst those people you've just talked about? I saw there was this crazy warm-up game you were playing this morning as well, which I can't describe to anybody. Um, maybe you could have a go for me, I don't know. But is there a feeling of, you know, post the winter, of being refreshed?

I think whenever you, um, you know, whether it's even just changing formats and having to think of the game slightly differently, um, sometimes it can be quite a healthy thing, especially if things aren't going your way, or you might be going through a little bit of a rough patch, being able to, you know, whether it's changing to T20 or changing to ODI cricket or back into Test cricket, whichever it is, it can be a really helpful thing in just flicking a switch in you somewhere and getting yourself closer back to your best. And, you know, coming back and playing, like I say, for Yorkshire, having the opportunity to be around these guys, and, you know, I obviously came through playing with and under Mags when he was captain and a senior player at Yorkshire. Come back and work with him again has been fantastic, and I really enjoy being around him and that setup. And like I say, it's just nice to give back to Yorkshire. That's where it started for me. That gave me the opportunity to get into first-class cricket and then go on from there. You know, it's just good to be back playing.

I know you don't want to talk about this, and I won't bang on too much about this bit, but I was down at Taunton a couple of weeks ago. Conversations overheard of an evening in, you know, some classy eating establishments, the Harvester and others, of people saying, oh, Joe Root, he came across, he gave us 10 minutes of his time or whatever, chatting there at Taunton, whatever. You were signing autographs down as you were coming off. It isn't a given, Joe, that that's done. You may feel it should be, probably you do, but you give so much to the county game, to which those of us for whom it is the number one thing, in all truth and fairness, we so appreciate. You do it because you think you should, or you actually enjoy it as well along the way, meeting public in a way that's a little bit away from the glare of internationals?

I think more than anything I just remember what it was like going to games as a kid, whether that be international games or coming and watching Yorkshire. If a player took 5 minutes of his time to sign something for me, it would make my day. So if I can give a little bit of that back to someone else, then it's no skin off mine as it's a nice easy thing to do. And these guys follow you all around the country and support you and cheer you on. And give you a lift. So, you know, it's an easy thing to do.

So which do you want to talk about? The '96 with the bat? Um, the single wicket. Oh, where's the wicket? I mean, how's Harry with his bowling, by the way? What happened there? Don't go there, don't go there.

He's already started talking about how he was using the crease and exploiting a crack outside of the pads. Painfully started, um, sound like Dale Steyn by the end of it. Um, yeah, so you can Yeah, leave that where it is, I reckon.

Okay, but that 4 for 49 as well, these are big wins against Somerset who were on a roll at the time. Now you've got Surrey, sorry, is Surrey, really important contributions in really enjoyable games, I imagine, to play in.

Yeah, definitely. Um, well, and like you say, you want— I've had the last couple of years when I've come back and played, I've been slightly disappointed that, you know, that the contributions I've made have not led to anything. Um, You know, Warwickshire last year was the sole game we played, we lost that, and the year before I think played 4 or 5 games, we drew most of them and might have lost one as well. So it's been— that was frustrating in many respects. You pride yourself on contributing to wins and how you can affect the game as best you can. So this year, playing the 3 games to win 2 of them, probably against 2 of the teams you'd probably suspect to be right up there in the conversation at the end of the year, is really pleasing. And, you know, played a small part in it, but even seeing the rest of the guys sort of come out their shells and guys like James Wharton down at Somerset play the innings that he did in the second, and that was almost the difference really between the two teams. And then this game, see Jonny lead from the front and come back to form, and Adam as well show his experience. It's just great to see. So yeah, it's been good.

Okay, I'm not going to drag you into the old reconnect disconnect with, with county cricket, but I am going to mention that in the context of this does feel like a really good 7 weeks for people, um, within the county game. It does feel— and actually, Anthony McGrath was saying earlier, it feels as though there have been eyes and ears on these, these 7 weeks and the 6 matches that have been played. It often happens post-Ashes, whatever happens, um, or post-winter, um Is there a good feel about it all, do you feel? You've been out there playing and no doubt talking with opponents and that sort of thing.

Yeah, I mean, I think whenever you start a summer and, you know, there's Test matches around the corner, there's always opportunities for people to stake a claim or to be in a conversation or stir a conversation, and certainly this year people have taking those opportunities and those chances. And you look at the squad that's been selected, there's some very exciting young players that have their first or second experience of being involved in a Test squad. Some guys have come back into the squad as well, which is great for them. And yeah, we'll see how it unfolds. But I think it's— I can imagine it's nice for young players when they see there's that carrot there of a potential, um, you know, call up further down the line. But, um, it can be very—

it can be very much silly season as well, these opening weeks, because if, if every player that had performed well in the Championship really was considered by England, we'd have a team of 35 out there. Um, but that's good, isn't it, having names thrown in and being talked about?

Surely you want people putting their hands up, you want competition for places, and you want, um you know, you, you want that to have strength in depth in many respects.

Um, and Division 1 bowling is at times, if not often— you tell me, Division 1 bowling, how difficult is it to face?

It can be, yeah, especially, um, some of the surfaces you come up against. It can be very challenging, um, and it'll test you. It might test you in slightly different ways to what Test cricket might, um, but you still got to find ways of handling that. And you might have different technical challenges in Test cricket that you have to manage and have to ready yourself for away from county cricket. That's fine. But one thing you can practice is managing situations and managing pressure and finding ways of problem-solving, however that is. And if you can do that, that certainly stands you in very good stead when you move up to international cricket.

It's not too far around the corner now, first Test, New Zealand. Any thoughts about that? I mean, a chance in front of the home support, who no doubt you will have felt the pain as they did as to what happened at times during, during the winter, to get back out there and show them some good cricket?

Yeah, I mean, I think whenever you've had a tough series, the first thing you want to do is get back out there and play and try and right some wrongs. And it's felt like a long time coming, so, um, be nice to— obviously New Zealand are a very good team, they tour very well, they've got a lot of players that have either had success in England or have attributes that can exploit our conditions. So we're going to have to play well, but we are a very good team in our own conditions. And, you know, it'd be really good to put a good foot forward at the start of the summer, you know, and show everyone what we're about again as a Test team.

Put smiles back on their faces, as you have along with everybody else in the Championship over the last 7 weeks. We thank you very much, Joe, for your time. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Now let's speak to Liam Dawson. What a joy it's been to see Liam on the field for so many years. He's decided to call it time on his Red Bull career at least, and I began by asking him why now.

Yeah, I've been thinking about it for a while, you know. I had a lot of thoughts last year. We also had a tough year last year. We, you know, we probably should have gone down. Obviously Yorkshire did us a massive favor. So yeah, I was a little bit undecided what I was going to do. Obviously then decided to start the year this year, and obviously I didn't get to the levels and the performances that I'd want to get to, and obviously the team weren't in a great position either. So yeah, obviously I don't think we can win the championship this year. So for me, the only reason I was playing was to win the championship, so that was gone after the first 4 or 5 games. So yeah, for me, that was the time to walk away.

It must— well, I say it must be— is it a horrible feeling that, that, that, that, that oncoming thinking, now, now is the time, but what if I've got it wrong, the timing, so to speak?

No, I think— well, listen, I don't know. I don't know if I've got it wrong. I'm gonna have to wait and see what happens. But no, you know what, I've been thinking about it for a while. You know, you're not sort of— you're not out there, you're not in the fight. And Red Bull Cricket, it's all about the fight. You've got to want to be out there. You've got to want to come back in your sort of third or fourth spell, you know, when you're 35th over, when it's tough. And I just found that the age I'm at— I'm 36 now, played a hell of a lot of cricket— I don't want that side of it anymore. I don't want to be sort of grafting and you know, putting your body through that sort of stuff. So yeah, for me it's time to walk away. The group have still got 9 games left to try and save the season, but yeah, for me I've gave it my all and I've got nothing left to give in this format again, unfortunately.

Listen, I don't want to come across as a fan, but I mean, you talk about that fight, and that is why so many of us love to see you on the cricket field, whether it be representing England in whatever format that is. And obviously your retirement is only from Red Bull Cricket. But, but you, you, you left nothing out. I mean, you, you worked so hard. You were a genuine fighter.

Yeah, definitely. I've always worked hard. I think to continue playing, you've got to keep working hard. You've got to, as I said, want to work hard and put things right. And, you know, for me, I didn't score the runs I wanted to score. And yeah, for me, I didn't want that hard work of trying to try and put things right at the stage of the career I'm at now. So Yeah, physically it's obviously a tough format to play. I want to try and play for as long as I can in white ball cricket, so hopefully that sort of helps me in the long run, in the future of my career. But yeah, it's obviously time is right to step away.

Can you just outline how you would hope that the next, what, year, 2, 3 years, I don't know, would play out? Do you have it in your mind? Because you know very well, of course, that things don't always go to plan. You can't always be certain about things, but in your own mind you have an idea?

No, not at all. I'm going to play the Hundred, play the Blast, and hopefully do well in that and see what that leads to. Yeah, I've got a lot of cricket left in me, but listen, take one game at a time and see where we end up.

4 Tests, 218 first-class matches along the way there. Can you just share a few of the moments as you, you know, look back?

What—

and go with me on this, because I know some people just don't like talking about their own careers, as I always prefer to put team first and all that, and you most definitely have done that with Hampshire down the years, but just go with me. On your moments, your standout moments of your Red Bull career?

I think that obviously the Somerset game, and I think when Kyle Abbott got, I think, 17 wickets in the game. I think we were 20 for 5 when I went in, and I managed to get 100 and put the team in a good position on a tough wicket. And obviously James Vince getting 100 second innings, and then Kyle taking those 17 wickets in the game. That's probably my most memorable Hampshire game. So yeah, that's probably one of my favorite 4-day games for Hampshire.

Internationally, there's the 4 Test matches there. What's your own reflection on you and England?

Um, listen, I was in an era where Moeen Ali was an extremely good player and balanced the team out. In another era, you know, potentially I could have played a lot more, but that's just that. That's no different for a lot of players. So happy to have played all formats for England. There's not many players that can say they've done that, so proud to do that. But yeah, I'm obviously happy to have played all formats.

And as you've rightly said, you know, whether it be with the bowling but also the batting, do you enjoy them both equally?

Yeah, definitely. As I said, as an all-rounder, you've got to work hard all the time, and it's not an easy thing to do both. But yeah, I'd like to, you know, like to see myself as a genuine all-rounder in Red Bull Cricket over the years. But yeah, I've enjoyed it. I've had a great time. I've played 218 games. It's a hell of a lot of cricket, but yeah, something just had to give.

And from a, from a Hampshire point of view, okay, so by only one point you stayed up and last year, and this year has not, has not been as a team also the start that, that Hampshire would have, would have wanted. But there have been seasons when you have been amongst those teams, uh, at the top, you know, perhaps within, you know, touching distance of winning the title. How much have you enjoyed those, those times? And obviously James Vince was a really important part of all that as well, wasn't he?

Yeah.

Um, So just a little bit more on that.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, that period between '21 and '24, those 4 years where we were an exceptional team, we never quite got over the line. Obviously Surrey were dominated for that time, but we had an exceptional team. We had some great games, some great players, the brilliant bowling attack, and that was probably my favorite time in Red Bull cricket in those years. It's obviously a shame to see where we are now, but yeah, those 4 years would be probably my most enjoyable as a Red Bull player at Hampshire.

I genuinely was a little bit shocked when I read the story that you decided to pack it in, and selfishly really disappointed. Richard Gibson's alongside me, Mail on Sunday correspondent. Anything just quickly to say to Liam?

Hi Liam, I was just saying that I'd spoken to you a couple of years ago when you were out the England team, and I think you'd put all your focus into winning things with Hampshire because your stats were so good. Good, you know, and you wanted to win trophies with Hampshire rather than sort of be wearing the fluorescent bib as a 12th man, the drinks carrier. But I guess one thing is that you would have— how satisfying was it to play another Test after that? And how much, I guess, is this decision based on playing for England for the next 2 or 3 years with future World Cups in mind?

No, nothing to do with playing for England, not at all. It's just obviously I love that Test match I played. This is purely from a domestic cricket point of view. I had nothing left to give in domestic cricket, in Red Bull cricket anymore. And yeah, I want to play for as long as I can, and I feel that our T20 team has got scope to be really good. So hopefully I can put all my energy towards that.

Okay, well Liam, I know to start off with, you want to do a bit of work this afternoon. You've got to get back out there again.

Thank you very much.

All the best, mate. Thank you. Liam Dawson there. But I am disappointed. He is the sort of character and player that when you are lucky and fortunate enough to follow county cricket day in, day out, you really do respond to and engage with, because he gave it everything, didn't he? And he still will in Whitepole, of course.

Well, you never know. He's always in the contest, isn't he? He's always doing something. He's got that kind of attitude on the field of, you know, over my dead body, which is real sort of country, old-school county cricket, isn't it? This, that, you know, you have characters like that in the game, and I I suppose he's our sort of modern version of that, you know, someone that won't let you pass, won't give you an easy ride, not for a ball, not for an over, not at all. And I think that's why he's so respected in the county game. I think, you know, when you're up against Liam Dawson, you know that either with bat or with ball— like, he was just talking about that game there, the game where he got 100 and Karl Abbott took those 17 wickets— you just know that until the stumps are drawn It ain't over.

Yeah, exactly. And I seem to remember watching on the— it was Old Trafford, wasn't it, I think, the Test? And it all ended just a little bit ugly or whatever because India batting on. And my memory is— I can't remember which bowlers— but Ben Stokes, the captain, wanted to give the ball to anybody to bowl, but didn't want to give it to Liam because he wanted, I think, to make a point really. And Liam, I could see, was really— I wasn't going to raise the issue there, but he was getting really quite cross because he wanted to give it his all right through to the end, no matter what the result was going to be. And that's the sort of player he is.

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think that's— he fought so hard to get sort of back into recognition for England, having been so consistent with 50-wicket seasons and 1,000-run seasons. And then, you know, to get that last chance was pretty significant in terms of, you know, persuading them that I'm here in county cricket and performing. Which is ironic, really, because that's exactly what they've gone back to now, isn't it? You know, perform in domestic 'and we'll look at you for England,' was— whereas actually that was a bit of an outlier decision when, when they recalled Liam Dawson last year, because they hadn't really gone and dipped back into county cricket form to select their Test squads at that point. But as I say, it was a bit of a precursor to what's happened this summer.

I've asked you to join me today because we are just going to briefly look back on, on the first 7 weeks— 6 matches for teams, but 7 weeks of the start of the County Championship season, and we might as well just carry on that point because that is definitely one of the talking points going into the season. It was about this so-called reconnect between Rob Key, Brendan McCullum, and England post-Ashes with county cricket. I asked the question obviously of lots of directors of cricket and coaches, and the answer nearly all the time for me was yes, um, We hear what they're saying, let's just wait and see if it happens. Do you think there is any proof yet that it is anything other than words from England and from the ECB that this reconnect is going to happen, or do you think it is happening?

I think it's happening. There's the— they've had the first— I mean, the, the new County Insight group was interesting to me, that it was suggesting that above and beyond just the scouting system, they wanted to, to fall back on some trusted eyes and ears from the county game, and they've got 4 directors of cricket there from different parts of the country and in different divisions to feed back on players. They've already had that first meeting a couple of weeks ago in Derby, in a golf hotel actually, funnily enough, just to prove that they're not for changing completely. But they were at Bredsel Priory in Derby, and they had that first meeting with Anthony McGrath, who's here, and of course, Alan Richardson, Richard Dawson, and Mickey Arthur. They had that first meeting, so that was the sort of first feedback of, you know, who should we be looking at, and just reaffirming really what they were already doing, I think, to a large extent. But the fact that it's there and it's that extra layer of kind of scrutiny, I think people will welcome that. I think it's then been followed through with the first selection, the first squad selection. Slightly larger squad, which gives them a bit of a chance to add a couple of names in there. But they have been faithful to what they said, and that is to reward performance. Look at Emilio Gay, for example. He was certainly in the Lions squad over the winter, but he wasn't first in the queue. I'm pretty confident he wasn't first in the queue when the season started, but 300s spoke volumes for the form he's in, and form was rewarded.

Yep, yep. Well, we've got Mick Newell, Director of Cricket Nottinghamshire, on again because it was nice to chat with someone from the defending champions Nottinghamshire at this particular first break, if you like, with the Blast beginning on Friday. Mick, thank you very much for your time this afternoon. Overall, as defending champions, how do you think you're shaping up?

Yeah, we've had a good block of 6 games. Obviously we'd like to win this game and then we go 3-3 draws, which is a good position. We We're sort of in a good mode of playing at the moment. We haven't lost a game since I think it was May last year, so there's certainly a confidence that we can keep, you know, a championship challenge together when we resume in 3 or 4 weeks' time. So we've enjoyed this first block of 6. We've had some good performances, played on some pretty good batting pitches, and as I say, if we could win this afternoon and go 3-3, we'd be very happy with that.

What has stood out for you? And I know this is difficult, you don't necessarily you know, name someone and forget others, but who've stood out for you in terms of your performers?

I think with the bat, Theo Clarke's had an outstanding start to the season. I think he's just under 700 runs, I think, somewhere around about that, which is a fantastic performance from a player who probably won't play for England, but, you know, he's still a very, very strong domestic player. We've been delighted with the contributions of Ben Duckett and Josh Tong. Great to have them around, I think, for 4 games each, which has really helped the team, helped the balance of the side. And Josh Tong, you know, bowling really quickly and giving county cricket something that he doesn't have very often. So really, really pleased with those 3 players in particular. And then obviously, I think our overseas player Fergus O'Neill picked up a lot of wickets today. He picked up an injury, missed a couple of games, but you know, it just goes to show the value of a good overseas player for whom county cricket can still be a great experience.

I mean, those that follow the numbers will not be surprised by Ben Slater, but the idea of Ben, who's going so well as well for— it's not— I mean, he's got a sense— it's not necessarily working out so well for your skipper, though. No doubt, hopefully time for him to get that right. But just a word about Ben Slater as well, because he, he doesn't get mentioned a great deal, but go— his contributions.

Oh, absolutely. You know, his contribution in 4-day cricket and in 50-over cricket has been very, very strong. It was strong at Derbyshire for a number of years before he came to us. And I think he's actually playing better in the last couple of years. He's in his early to mid-30s now, and I think as an opening batter, probably still got a number of years left in the game. But I think him and Hasib has given us an opening partnership on a par with sort of Bicknell and Gallyan if I go back 20 years, and I think Todd and— sorry, Robinson and Broad if I go back before that. So a right-left-handed combo always goes well in county cricket, and those two certainly did an excellent job for us.

I know your name publicly was linked with that national selector role, but if you don't mind, I still want to put the point to you, or ask you whether you feel, and maybe on behalf of the players, your players, whether you feel there is a reconnect taking place?

Well, I certainly think the selection of both of that line two, as Richard said there, a strong performance in county cricket will get you in. And I think he said right about Gay. Gay has deserved that opportunity based on what he's done for both the Shield and in previous years. I think in our case, it not opting into Liam Patterson-White's selection for the Lions is well rewarded. The return of an Ollie Robinson type of bowler into the main squad, I think, is again just reward for his performances. And Sam Cooke could be equally unlucky, as could Matt Fisher. So I think definitely I would agree that that has happened in terms of selection. And I would also agree about this County Insight Group. I think the 3 English coaches that are on that group are all of an age where they are the future of coaching in this country, perhaps rather than the past. And I also think it's a good idea to have an overseas voice on that with Mickey Arthur. So I think that that is a productive step. And I said before, you know, Brendan's main job is to look after the England team, and I think those that work around Brendan, it's their role to connect with county cricket and make sure that him and Barnstone, so Harry Brookgrove as captain, have got the best information about the best players available.

Because from your point of view, you, you needed players over the last couple of years to be convinced that what— that it was worth sticking with you, so to speak, in county cricket and with Nottinghamshire. And this not just at Nottinghamshire, elsewhere. It, it was worth their while doing it to advance their careers, and not just everybody just putting the bags down and dashing off left, right, and center, uh, around the world. That, that was such an important message to get across to them, wasn't it?

Yeah, look, I think county cricket has been much maligned in recent years, as we all know, but I still think it's a fantastic vehicle for people to make a career in the game. Ben Slater, you've just mentioned, never played for England, never will play for England, but has had a great career playing county cricket. And we've got a number of players like that in our club at the moment. So I still think there's the opportunities to play all formats is still the one that most players want. Winning the county championship is still the trophy that most teams want to win more than anything else. And I think the franchise world is a great world, but only for a small number of players. And I don't think we should forget that. There isn't a rush to give up red ball cricket by the vast majority of cricketers in this country because they enjoy the county lifestyle and they enjoy red ball cricket.

When Richard Gibson came in here about 10-15 minutes ago, he said, what are you going to ask me? And I never know, but I did say there is one question I'm going to ask you, Richard, which I'm going to finish off with you, Mick, if I may. And that's taking a look, even though all the results aren't in from this final group of of games of, you know, take a look at the top of the— or just take a look at the Division 1 table and tell me who's going to win out of that lot. Because I mean, it's really bunching up in terms of points with this Yorkshire victory over Surrey as well, which has really taken a lot of people, um, not by surprise, Anthony McGrath sitting alongside me, but I mean, it really has stood out as, as a massive result in the competition. Have you any— I mean, obviously you've said, you know, you're pleased with your start of the season, but it's looking really tight, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, fair play to Mags if she sat there next to you. That's an incredible victory, you know. I think we'd all love to— we all like beating Surrey, but, you know, Yorkshire have actually done that and done it by an inning. So fair play to them over these 4 days. I'm not quite sure of the current score at Somerset, but if they beat Sussex, they'll be right up there. And obviously we're right up there. So I think, you know, playing in these little blocks— we've obviously had 6, we've got 2 in the middle in June— and I think the big test for all of us that we're probably already thinking about is the 6 that will come after the 100 and the MB50 from mid-August to mid-September. So I certainly wouldn't want to stick my neck out and say who's going to win it, but I think it's looking like a really high-quality competition with lots of teams that are going to be in with a chance when we go into that block of 6 right at the back end.

I must get to speak to Anthony as well here, but Mick, I'm so grateful once again for your time, and obviously well done to you in Nottinghamshire because you have got your defence off to a really good strong start, haven't you? And thank you once again, Mick Newell, Director of Cricket Nottinghamshire. I will go to Max, but just briefly with you, Richard. Anything just further on to what Mick has just been talking about there? Because we covered quite a bit with him there.

But well, it's a bit of everyone beating everyone else, isn't it, at the moment? You just mentioned— Mick just mentioned Yorkshire's excellent win here against Surrey, and Yorkshire also beat Somerset, of course. So if they win again today, they'll be right back up there. So I think it just shows that everyone can beat everyone in the table when you look at who is where in the current standings. I think, you know, look at Somerset at the moment, technically in 8th before their games, the game finishes, but you know, they would zoom up the table. It'll be quite well bunched, as Mick said, going into those, that 2-block of games in June, where everyone will, it kind of feels like an extension of this first block really, and then you know, later in the season you have that sort of home straight of 6 matches, don't you? So I think, you know, it'll be that stage, wherever people are at the end of June will tell you who's going to be in a chance of winning the title, I would think. Not that it would be decisive, but certainly you'd want to be in position there.

Richard Gibson, Mail on Sunday correspondent, is with me. If he can stick around, that's great. I know he's keeping an eye on if anybody may be talking downstairs as well. But let's say hello to Anthony McGrath here. You won't have heard McNuel say there on the program as you came into the room, everybody loves to beat Surrey because of their strengths. Where did that come from yesterday? Congratulations, what a win.

Yes, contrasting fortunes from this time last Monday down at Edgebaston, where we got well beaten. And then, yeah, to finish this block off against Serie A was a difficult game, but it's a performance that's been coming really because it's been a really frustrating block for us. Given our optimism in pre-season when we've been really good on certain days and then on other days we've just crumbled and everyone's been scratching our heads really, players and coaches, about why it keeps happening because there's no rhyme or reason for it really. But it's just really pleasing for everyone with all the hard work put in, we know we're capable of performances like that and I think from losing the toss on Friday morning to now, we've pretty much dominated that game. There were a period at 120 for 4 where it could have, you know, lost a couple more wickets. But apart from that, we've been superb. And it's just the word consistency for us, you know, making sure we stick to our standards and we just don't have days where, you know, we have horrendous hours or 2 hours, and that's costing us the 2 games we've lost so far.

I thought you might have been talking about belief as well, because you say, I know you feel it, like all directors of cricket and coaches will feel the results when you can't necessarily do too much about it because it's the players out there doing it. But they must have held on to their belief, even though you might have been a bit grumpy with them on the odd occasion.

Yeah, I'd say sometimes you get the feel of, in practice or, you know, vibe around the place that things are tough, but we haven't really had that. Everyone's been quite chipper and up, and that's why it's been even more frustrating with the days we have had bad, and even when we came back this week from Edgbaston, trained Wednesday, Thursday, everyone did have that belief, you know, that we could do something special here, particularly with, you know, Brookie and Rooty for the last game, Jai playing his last game. So we've just had a few guys out of form who were due a performance, Johnny Bairstow, Adam Lives partnership on the first day, and then as a bowling unit, I think that's as good as we've been all year. Everyone who came on to bowl were relentless really, and you don't often see Surrey get bowled out for less than, well, just over 200 and under 200. They normally bat big, so it's really, really pleasing to put up a performance like that.

Harry Brook, you must have been enjoying that like all Yorkshire supporters were, and Harry Brook must have been enjoying it as well, that bowling yesterday.

I did say to him, I remember seeing Wasim Akram bowl a spell here at Headingley once, and I said, you're like Wasim Akram, you're swinging in and out. He wanted to open the bowling actually this morning because he said, you know, he was the most dangerous bowler. So it was, uh, no, it was great to see. And I think it was just one of them spells, wasn't it, where he got it swinging, the lights were on. And I think he enjoyed obviously the Jamie Smith wicket. And I'm sure when they meet up at Loughborough, he's going to be reminding him of that one.

You've been looking at that table along over my shoulder as well. I mean, it does look a crazy table, doesn't it?

Yeah, I mean, the great thing about, I think, Division One is we know that teams, you know, anyone can beat anyone and we want a competitive league. I think what's been really pleasing in this first block of games is how many of the England players have played and the interest in the County Championship. It makes the competition stronger, but it puts more eyes on it. And I think, you know, we know it's a given some people call county cricket and the standard. We, you know, I think it's a great competition and a high standard, and when we have a competitive league like it's shaping up to be, it's great for everyone, it's great for cricket, and hopefully it is, you know, throughout the rest of the season.

You've been mentioned earlier on in the program, of course, because Richard brought in, and then Mick also referred to it, you know, the Insight Group. We spoke about it briefly when we spoke ahead of the Somerset game at Taunton. You're part of it all, you're part of this reconnection, aren't you? Which is, I think, as you, you said, you couldn't be certain whether it was something that was done deliberately or actually just happened to, if you like, come into being, that they felt this, this disconnect. But it did exist, and you're all— down on you, Max, to put it all right.

Um, yeah, I mean, look, it's as I said to you, I think it's on, it's brilliant to be asked and to be involved. And I think even if it's just conversations or ideas, you know, the the 3 or 4 other coaches who are involved, just adding, I guess, debate and options and young players coming through. And as I said, you know, young players who might not have been seen, you know, someone like a Matt Revis today, we know that he's got that in his locker in terms of a bowling performance. But guys who are a bit higher up and don't see county cricket might not know that's in him. And there's lots of other examples, but I think, look, you know, as a game, we want English cricket to thrive, don't we? International level and domestic level and grassroots. We all love the game. And I think the more we are connected, the healthier and stronger the game will be.

Do you remember also a couple of weeks ago, and I was the crazy one here, I guess, just a little bit concerned about the previous weekend's results, which had all been draws. I mean, gosh, what happened in Taunton just 2 or 3 days later, and here as well. There have been some really good games of cricket. Being played.

Yeah, I mean, I think we— the interview we did, it came after a week of heavy draws, didn't it? Heavy first innings. And the weather's been dry, and we thought, oh, it could be a bland next 3 weeks, but it's been absolutely the opposite of that. Been some incredible games up and down the country in both divisions, really exciting stuff, and that's what we want. And I think a lot of the games are going into, you know, third and fourth day, which is great. It's not like the crazy games are going one or two days, they're finishing deep on day four. And that's what you want in terms of, you know, that test of four-day cricket. You know, the conditions change from day one to day four. And it's, yeah, as I said, it's exciting to be part of, but also watching the games up and down the country. You know, there's a lot of, uh, of good cricket being played, really, because we're talking on the back, um, during the end of this round of matches.

It's unfair to talk to someone about a former club. However, one of the dramatic results of the weekend was Leicestershire being bowled out for 60, having scored something like 166 runs on the first session of that game there at Chelmsford. And there they are, they're sitting around about the top. Essex, you know Chris Silver, a good friend of yours as well, and you know so many of them still, still many of them still playing there at Essex as well. For teams like Essex to make sure they're up there and fighting, that says something, doesn't it, about their spirit down there and their skills?

Yeah, without doubt.

I mean, Sam Cooke's taking wickets again. They missed out by England. I mean, you probably don't want to get drawn into that, especially in your, your role now here, but he's still doing it. It's Sam Cooke.

Yeah, I mean, Essex are a good team. I've obviously got a very soft spot for them and, you know, want them to do well, of course. Um, But when they get on a roll, you know, their top 11, 12 players are up there with the best. If they get runs on the board with the attack they've got, they're very, very dangerous. And you've seen that, you know, they can be out of a game and from nowhere they're winning in a session. A bit like I've been saying about us, we go the other way where Essex, back to the wall, they do find some incredible results from nowhere. So yeah. They're, you know, they've been together for a while. Obviously, they've got a lot of very, very good senior players, but they're adding the likes of, you know, Charlie Allison, North End, Luke Benkenstein. So, yeah, you know, you could name 4 or 5, 6, 7, 8 teams in that division at the moment who are all pushing.

And in this victory over Surrey, you talk about, you know, bringing the players on and wanting to see a certain group of players, you know, they've got skills. And here, of course, I'm talking about Georgia, a bit of Revis, and one you might want to mention some more. Up against, you know, up against— sorry, against Surrey. I mean, some of the best players to perform like they did here, that's going to do them the world of good, isn't it?

Yeah, well, you mentioned the word belief, and I've rattled on about it, you know, throughout the first. It is— I think once you go to a higher level, it is all about belief. You know, Joe Root and Harry have talked about it to the lads in the dressing room. About, you know, that mindset of you're going to beat your opposition, you know, whatever bowler you're facing, whatever batsman you're bowling at, it's about having that belief that you can do well against them. So yeah, I think for us it's a big, big statement, but it's about remembering that now and taking that into every game. Of course, you're not going to probably execute as well as we have done, but you've got to find a way when you're not when you're not feeling at your best to try and still get the performances, because that's what the best individuals and that's what the best teams do. So I think that's the next step for us. But yeah, like you say, if a performance like that, beating Surrey by an innings, doesn't give you that, then I'm not sure what would.

From a results point of view, one might think that momentum would be great to carry on in this competition, but there is a break because the Blast is now starting this coming week. But also, aside from the results, bodies might need a little, little bit of a break?

Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, most teams will. I think this is a really hard block, the first 6 games, one we all look forward to because it's the start of the season. But I think the T20 comes at a good time now. We've a few niggles of George and George Hill and Jack White have bowled a lot of overs, so that'll come a welcome break now. I think as a team we've been in either playing or training 25 days out of the last 27. Which of course we all love, but I think just changing up to a different format now, a little bit of a refresh, and then two big games when we come back, one at Scarborough and one at Grace Road. So I'm sure by the time we get to mid-June everyone will be refreshed and looking forward to Championship cricket again.

There are two teams within this Division 1 table I want to talk about. I mean, Sussex, who knows what might happen against Somerset, but you know, that's three wins from their first five, they've done terrifically well there, but it's it's Glamorgan I want to take a look at. Now, you've seen them, um, in the flesh, so to speak, and it's not easy when you're promoted into the First Division, but gosh, they're putting up another good showing in Birmingham this week.

Yeah, I mean, I think when teams come up, people kind of doubt, can they do it in Division 2? Glamorgan— Division 1, sorry. Glamorgan haven't been in Division 1 for a long time. I obviously know Richard Dawson and Ian Harvey very well. They were coaching there And you mentioned that word belief. We played them from game one. They set us a good decoration on the last day going for a win, and from there they've carried on that really good form. Unbelievable win against Somerset, that chase. On top against Warwickshire, who knows what might happen this afternoon. But they've found a good balance, I think, as well. I really like their attack with Mason Crane. He gives them, you know, a bit of a bit of difference to their other seamers, and they've managed to get runs as well, which is the key to everything if you can get them first innings runs and get runs on the board with your attack. So Glamorgan have been really, really impressive. And you mentioned Sussex to start the season, I think with 10 points, was it, deduction?

Yeah.

And a lot of noise around how tough it were going to be and people leaving and, you know, that could be going Division 2 and what will that do for the dressing room? It's absolutely done the polar opposite. It's galvanized them. You can see by the spirit, and they've had a brilliant start.

Yeah, we're back on that Glamorgan situation. Of course, one of the most exciting, exhilarating stories is see an 18-year-old in Tom Norton come in on his first-class debut, take a hat-trick. I mean, he's a long way to go in his career, but what a lovely story. And they'll be particularly pleased because he's an Abergevenny lad. They'll like that. And also, if I just mention just very briefly because you would be delighted to have got the better of Somerset at Taunton as well. But for me, one of the performers, one of the games I can remember certainly was their victory over Hampshire, where Lewis Gregory, who's still a great before he opened it up with his bowling on one afternoon down there at the Utilita Bowl. Tom Abel steered them through, and Tom Abel, what a performer Tom Abel is as well. So some real standout performances along the way. Craig Overton, of course, there at Somerset, so they'll be there and challenging. If you don't mind, as we wrap up here now, behind the scenes, one of the big talking points and in front of us. Subfielders, replacement fielders rather, for injuries. We spoke briefly at Taunton, we were expecting some changes. Are there meetings going to take place now? Do you know anything about what is perhaps going to happen ahead of the restart of the Championship on that one?

I'm not sure. I think obviously emails have gone around. I think they want feedback how it's been going and how we think it's been going day to day on the ground. There's talk about a few tweaks. I mean, my thoughts on it, I thought it was a good introduction given what we've seen the past few years. It probably just needs, you know, a little bit of rounding around the edges. I think there's a couple of gray areas on certain things.

Would you expect it to become a two-day thing?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, Having seen, you know, the chat around it before the season and then seen it play out, I think the first 2 days is probably fairer. I think if you get into days 3 and 4, yeah, it doesn't seem quite right when you see it in action. Probably first 2 days is a fairer event. The illness thing's a difficult one, it's a grey area. We did have 2 players subbed out for illness, but I mean, when I said ill. It's not like a cold, there were food poisoning.

Spare us some of the details.

Yeah, I will do. Um, so yeah, that's a difficult one. Obviously the life-changing events, you know, the births and bereavements and stuff like that, I think is definitely a thing we should have because you— I mean, for me, the bringing the rule in, you don't want to see a game of cricket after day 1, 11v10 or 11v9. I remember a game back at the Oval for Essex where we had Jordan Cox with his appendix out, Jamie Potter with a broken finger, we had 9 men and it spoiled the game.

Correct.

Not an excuse but, you know, we don't want to see that so I think it's events like that you want to see being fairer. I hope they don't scrap it simply because we've started the season with it and I think the integrity of the competition then would, you know, it might not be fair for some teams who haven't had replacements for instance. So I just think it needs a little bit of tweaking. Um, and yeah, overall I think it is a good thing.

Yeah, I mean, what I've been reminded of is this is a trial supposedly, um, which has been set in place by the ICC. It's been tried in different parts of the world— Australia, South Africa— and perhaps there was an element of, um, the game in this country looking at it, well, what can we do which is a little bit different to see if we can help with that trial. Now I I think I'm right in saying life events is something that's not been trialed elsewhere, so that, that's a big tick for those of the ECB. It is probably just the fact you can't be making the changes on the fourth morning. Not on the fourth morning.

No, I think, yeah, I mean, talking to other players—

maybe, sorry to interrupt, but maybe life events again, I might accept that. Yeah, probably I can on life events, but not on illness and Well, any other aspect.

Yeah, I mean, look, I think on things like rules and statistics in our game, cricket, it's a traditional game and rules never really get changed unless they go through. But I think common sense-wise, now we've seen it play out in the first 6 weeks, I think you're right. I think the 2-day thing would be fairer for everyone.

And also the idea of putting the onus a little bit on— and yeah, putting the onus on clubs and teams to play fair. Well, everybody wants to play fair, but also everybody will be looking for that little percentage that means that they can get the better, because that's why you're competitors. And so they've got, they've got to be rules in place and boundaries in place, haven't they?

Yeah, they have. But if the rules are rules, they're there to be adhered to. So if it is 4 days, then you can't blame people who are changing them.

That's what I'm saying.

So if you do change it to 2, then everyone knows. But while it is, while it is, you know, if you've got someone who goes down with a hamstring on day 4, then within the rules you can change them. So until that is changed, you can understand why teams are utilizing it and using it.

Anthony McGrath there. That's it for this episode of the Test Match Special podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode, and make sure you're following @BBCCricket on Instagram too for all the latest from TMS. Check out Strategic Timeout on BBC Sports YouTube channel as well, featuring the likes of Mark Wood, Samit Patel, David Malan, and Aussie franchise cricketer Chris Green, who's just got back to the UK in time to play a little Championship cricket, but now ready for the T20 blast. Thanks for listening, we'll speak to you next time.