Did Bazball work? Behind-the-scenes at The Hundred

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Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast. I'm Henry Moran and we're behind the scenes at The Oval as the first matches of this year's Hundred getting underway. Just a reminder, the BBC is going to have every ball of every match available for you to listen to on BBC Sounds over the course of the next month. And straight after that, Well, what has dominated the cricket conversations this year has largely been around England men's Test team. And we're just 29 days now away from the first day of the final Tests of the summer between England and Pakistan. But the England team has no captain, no head coach, and who knows whether a permanent replacement to Brendan McCullum will be in place by the time the series gets underway. Just over 4 years on from the birth of Bazball, we're going to ask the Test Match Special pundits here at The Oval, did it work?

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In between commentary stints, the busiest lady in cricket, Ebony Rainford-Brent. It's a difficult question, this, and when I first posed it to you off air, I said, well, did Bazball work? And you went, hmm.

Yeah, good question. I think, look, we've all watched the last 4 years. I think the first 2 were pretty impressive, weren't they? I think the team hadn't won, like, I think it was 17 Tests and won one. And England became rejuvenated all of a sudden, playing expressive, hit the ball around the ground. We saw a new lease of life, I think, from a lot of the England players. So for the first 2 years, I think it was pretty exciting. I think the challenge then became England were getting into winning situations and we just didn't quite see them get over the line. And the Ashes Test for everyone, was one of those moments where it just felt like we've got the skill set, we've got the talent, we've got into good positions within Test matches but not closing it out. And I think, you know, overall you weigh up in cycles, right? The first half was brilliant, I would say. I think it's been so rejuvenating to watch that phase. But the second half, it felt like we wanted more from the performance, more from the team. So how do you describe that? I don't know. It feels like a career. A lot of people You know, come out the blocks and fire, and then at the other end sometimes it doesn't go that as well. So did it work? I don't think you can say a definitive yes or no. I think we saw real peaks and times where it wasn't working.

Did it change Test cricket forever?

Good question. Maybe. I think it changed English cricket because I think prior to that the style of English cricket was much more conservative. And, you know, I don't think I've ever seen Joe Root playing a reverse sweep. Early on in a Test before, or that moment when we saw Jack Crawley smash one for four. So I think it changed some of the players and their mindset, and it's brought in quite a wave of aggression in our cricket. I would say others have dominated. Brendon himself was that style. You look at, you know, Justin Langer and other cricketers from around the world, they've had aggressive types. But I think as a culture, it's forced us to think about being on the front foot. And I suppose we hope to keep that as well as making sure we can adapt to different different times of the game.

Thank you very much. Um, I think we've just about unpicked it all there.

I don't know, we've done all right, mate.

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Well, down here on the boundary edge, I have found Michael Vaughan in the sunshine, um, Ashes winning captain on this very ground a few years ago. Vaughan, uh, what about Bazball? Test cricket's changed a lot since then, but was it a success?

Um, no, no, it wasn't, because it was a success in terms of bring an entertainment. For the first 2 years, when you look at the chases that they had, some of their series wins away in Pakistan, New Zealand, they played some exceptional cricket. But when they came up against a little bit more in quality in a 5-match series, India and Australia, which is what you're judged on, you know, those big marquee series. Baz McCullum's admitted that himself. They're the series that you get judged on as a player, a captain, a coach. The Bazball method was, I wouldn't say easy to play against, but over a 5-match series, I think the likes of Cummins and co., Bumrah and co., they worked out that if a team's going to come all-out attack all the time, it's near on impossible to be successful in 3 of the matches. And that's pretty much how it ended in terms of the result to New Zealand that 4th afternoon at Trent Bridge. I think that was the moment that we all watched and thought, It's been a great ride. I've enjoyed it. Loved the drama that it's brought. But in terms of bringing trophies and bringing success in a winning sense, no, it's not been successful.

Did you believe the hype? Because a lot of us did. We all thought that this was going to work at times.

I always felt, you know, I believe you have to play aggressive to beat the best teams, but you can't play the same way all the time. You can't just play in one gear, which was a gear which was pretty much 5th or 6th and at times 7th. They had to find a way of working out situations playing smarter at times. And if they could have done that, you know, I'm a big believer in Test match cricket that if you get the opportunity to be really aggressive, go for it. And if that comes on day 1, great. It might come on day 2, it might come on day 3. You have to work out when you can be ultra aggressive. But once you've been aggressive and you know you've got the cards and you force the opposition onto the back foot, Test cricket allows you to just sit and go, okay, we don't need to play any more cards. We don't need to risk. We don't have to go all in every single day. And that's for me what Bazball was. It was pretty much when whatever cards they had on whatever given day, all in. And it's quite easy to play poker against someone that goes all in all the time because you don't always have the cards. And yeah, I've enjoyed it. I've loved watching it, love broadcasting on it. But in terms of success and winning, I didn't ever think it was going to be ultimately successful playing that way all the time.

Will you miss it?

I will miss it. Yeah, I'll miss it. I'll miss drama and Baz McCullin's method and And obviously Ben Stokes in terms of the way that he plays the game. Rashid Khan's here. I've got to go and interview him. So come on, Rash, how are you?

How are you?

You all right?

Good to see you.

Yes, I will miss it. Rash, will you miss Bazball? Just put yes or no.

No. Yes, I do.

I do.

You love it really, right?

I love it.

I love it.

It's like more like a T20 of long format.

There you go. You never know who you're going to find. Rashid Khan.

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Well, here in the corridor outside the commentary boxes, I have come across Phil Tufnell and tuffers. Nobody seems to be able to answer this quite definitively. Was Bazball a success?

I think at the beginning, absolutely it was a success. You know, I can remember turning up and doing the commentary and you just didn't know what was going to happen. We saw some wonderful cricket when English cricket was at a bit of a low ebb. It really did sort of reinvigorate it and it was fantastic. And it was fantastic all the way through. But I think it just sort of ran out of steam, for my money. So yeah, it's an awkward one to answer, but I'm gonna go yes, it was a success.

Why?

Because I loved every minute of it. It gave— I think it was great for Test cricket. It's what it needed at the time, that's for sure. Okay, big series lost. I mean, we're at The Oval here, that India chase. If they could have just got across the line there, would we have said it was a success? You know, and all these other sort of factors come into it. Just for a pure sort of exhilaration. And, you know, I'd never seen anything like it. I can remember myself and Alistair Cooke up at Trent Bridge with Johnny Bairstow smashing it all round. We were sitting there at tea, Cooke and I were going, oh well, another boring draw. And old Cooke said, oh, I don't know, I think they're going to go for it. I was just like, don't be so silly. And then it was the most pulsating session of play that I'd ever seen. And yeah, it was great fun while it lasted. But it just ran out of steam.

Did it always have a shelf life?

Yes, I think it did. I think it did. I think things like that, I think everything has a bit of a shelf life. Um, I, I, I can remember, you know, after the Australia tour, you know, I was, I was one for saying, you know, perhaps give them another go, tweak it, reset, and all those kind of things. But I think sometimes even like Pep Guardiola, Arsène Wenger, you know, Alex Ferguson, I think there comes a time when, yeah, you kind of go a bit stale, and I feel that's what happened to it.

Will you miss it?

I will miss it. I will miss it. I mean, Baz, I think, I think he's a great coach. I think he's a, he's a great chap as well, and he just freed up that England side to go and entertain, you know. And, uh, yeah, I have some fantastic memories of it.

It was fun while it lasted.

It was fun while it lasted. Couldn't have put it better myself, Henry.

Thank you, Toppers. Righto, so who will we find next?

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One of the most surprising discoveries on my little tour is to find Carlos Brathwaite in the makeup room because he just doesn't need it. Carlos, come on then, Bazball, a success, a failure, where do we view it? That says it all.

I mean, can you say it's a big success? No. I think a lot of the games that England won and series that they won they would have won anyway. Um, I did enjoy watching them play cricket. Um, but then some of the communication coming out of the dressing room about saving Test cricket, I think it was a little bit holier-than-thou.

Did it rub people up the wrong way around the world?

Yeah, I think it did. I mean, if you just take the cricket in isolation, they played a very good brand of cricket. I think for me, the best cricket to watch was potentially Pakistan. Less brash, more clever. That spoke more to trying to, you know, evolve English cricket than, oh, we're going to score at 4.5 for over. You look back into time, you had your Verinder Sehwags, you had your Adam Gilchrists. So you're not exactly reinventing the wheel, which was the communication. I think the more the communication came out the dressing room, the less public favor um, the loss, or more public favor the loss. So I think I'd separate it as an opinion based off what they said and how it matched up to it and the results versus just the enjoyment factor. It was good to watch again. It made people talk about Test cricket, whether it was to slate them for their conversations or whether it was just to see, um, the cricket being played positively. But the holier-than-thou, I think that kind of was the first nail in the coffin. As soon as results dropped, you know, it's going to be a slippery slope.

Indeed.

Thank you, Carlos. Thank you very much. I'll let you get back to whatever it is you need doing.

Little touch-up.

Never, never.

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Well, in the green room and me interrupting a bag of crisps is the former New Zealand international Katie Martin, part of our team covering the Hundred this year. And from a Kiwi perspective, What's your view on Bazball? How's it been received? How do you think it's gone?

I think New Zealand probably been a bit more defensive about the name Bazball. I think they think it's a bit unfair on Brendon. Look, I think, look, they've had some success and not other success with Bazball. I think the theory around putting pressure back on bowlers has been a good thing, but yeah, it's probably just been the mentality and the decision-making around that was lacking a little bit, but I guess as a coach you have to commit to what your ethos is and what you want to go about. And I think knowing Brendan, he's a guy that's wholehearted in everything that he does. And I think he'll look back maybe in a few years' time and say he's had his hand in developing a number of players within that Test side. But whether it was a natural progression that they've put that belief and mentality in a number of younger players coming through, you look like Sir Jacob Bethell and the opportunity that he got given on the back of, I guess, the approach they wanted in that Test side. So look, there'll be some successes and through some of the players. I think the reflection is, is just they didn't adapt as quickly as they would have liked, and I guess the big moments and the big Test series, they just weren't able to get across the line. So yes, there'll be some remaining factors, and I think embedded in English cricket around how probably when England first played in pre-Brenham's era, it was a lot more defensive. So I think they'll say that shift has been quite, quite nice and a different approach and brought the crowds back. But you always have to develop, and they just didn't do it as quickly as probably what they were liking.

Can you understand why some people from overseas really wanted it to fail, particularly from your Antipodean neighbours just across the Tasman Sea?

Well, let's say that we think Australia invented cricket anyway. Um, so maybe that's a problem, um, that they feel like they've always played that style around putting pressure back on bowlers and they never had an opportunity to nickname. Although they have nicknamed it— what do they nickname it in Australia?

Jim Maxwell had a nickname which is not worth repeating without us getting into all sorts of trouble. Baz something else, I believe.

Yeah, look, I mean, Australia have always been the leading side, aren't they, in Test cricket? And they've had naturally aggressive players as well. I think you think of Adam Gilchrist was probably the first non-traditional Test player at number 7 and shifted the game. Yeah, Ron Ball, I think that's what it's called, isn't it?

Oh, that one. Okay, the Australian version.

Yeah, Ron Ball, after what they call— nicknamed their coach Andrew McDonald Ron. So I remember Travis Head made some t-shirts up after, after that saying Ron Ball was successful. So I think it goes a bit further back in Australian cricket history around how they went about their Test cricket, but Look, it's given a lot of talking points throughout the years, hasn't it? And we have to find new narratives in the Test game.

We will. And, uh, and I'll let you find your bag of crisps again.

Thank you. Well, we'll, we'll give you Stephen Fleming if you want. He was a bit more traditional in his Test play.

Yeah, he— one of the names that could be in line to be England coach. We will find that out in due course. Katie, thank you very much indeed.

Thank you, sir.

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Well, we're between matches at the Oval and Stephen Finn is eating a chocolate muffin. Oh, he was about to, but now I've interrupted him. Sorry, Finny.

Yeah, I was looking forward to tucking into my moist chocolate muffin, but cut short because I want to ask you a very important question.

Was Bazball a success?

Well, I think if you're looking for a simple answer, it's very difficult. There's more nuance to it, clearly. I think the the first 2 years were a massive success. I think the way they changed the sentiment around Test match cricket in this country and took a team that had won 1 in 17 to them winning so many games in that first 2-year period, it was a fantastic effort. I think clearly it will end up being defined by the fact that they didn't manage to beat India or Australia in any series, but I would say on the whole It was success and it gave us hope in Australia, but that hope didn't come through. So yeah, it's a shame that it's all ended as it has all ended, as it did. But I think we should remember the good times.

Could it have been a success with just a little tweak?

Well, I think clearly, yes. There were certainly moments in games where, had there been a modification of the way that they played, then they probably would have won those Test matches. And therefore won those series. Um, so you see, I think with, with, um, a bit better management of situations, it could have been even more of a success. Yeah.

Has it changed the game forever, or are we going to see ebbs and flows over the years where sometimes you'll see the sort of Rory Burns, Dom Sibley, and sometimes we'll see the Bazball?

Yeah, I don't think it's changed the game forever, and other countries would contest the They played aggressive Test match cricket well before Bazball came together. So I think they changed the attitude towards winning games of Test match cricket in this country. I think now we're more willing to see teams go for a win than maybe we were before, especially when I played. We looked to draw games before winning, but now it's accepted that you want to try and win the Test matches. So in that sense, yeah, I'd say it has.

Speaking of winning, I'm going to let you get back to the muffin.

Thank you, appreciate it.

Steven Finn, thank you very much indeed.

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Well, I'm back in the makeup room. I found Tymal Mills fresh from bowling practice with the London Spirit, and we're discussing things away from The Hundred, Tymal, and Bazball. It's finished.

Yes.

Has it been a success?

I guess technically, aren't— if you want to look at it bluntly, aren't they back to about where they started? But I think in terms of moments and entertainment, it is a resounding success. And I don't think you could argue that cricket is the same now as what it was 4 years ago. And you'd certainly say a large part of that was to do with Bazball and players now playing a lot much more aggressively. So If I had to give an answer, yes or no, I'd say yes, it was a success.

What about in terms of attitudes from those overseas that sort of wanted it to fail?

That's, I think that's human nature, isn't it? We unfortunately as humans, most humans want things to fail more than they do to succeed, which is a shame. But I don't think the people involved in that test side are that fussed about that, if I'm being completely honest. They're obviously trying to win games of cricket in a certain way, and sometimes it works and sometimes it didn't. And, um, yeah, I'm sure they sleep okay at night either way.

What about the impact it's had long term on Test cricket? Has it changed it a little bit?

Yeah, certainly. I think I haven't delved into the stats, but I'm sure scoring rates will be higher now than it was, um, back then. And, um, teams certainly, you know, won't Or will target chasers more so now, or believe it's possible to target chasers. So yeah, I think that'll definitely have a lasting impact.

We shall see. Thank you very much, Jamal. Back to you. Yes, your makeup's done. That was all taking place while we were chatting.

I don't need much, that's why.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? So there we go. Some thoughts from the great and the good of the Test Match Special commentary team. I think we've got somewhere as to working out whether Bazball was a success, but not necessarily quite the definitive answer that, that maybe we thought we'd have had when we saw the, the revolution starting in 2022. Well, that Test series between England and Pakistan gets underway on August 19th. You'll be able to hear it all on Test Match Special coverage beginning at 10:25 in the morning from Headingley, and there'll be coverage as well on BBC Television with Today at the Test bringing highlights every single day and you'll be able to watch them back at your leisure on the iPlayer as well. It's on the iPlayer you'll be able to find plenty of matches in The Hundred too. 8 double headers across BBC Television and the iPlayer. If you miss any of the action, you can always watch it back, and there's lots of highlights on the BBC Sport website as well. And of course, our radio coverage continues unabated. Every ball of every game of this year's tournament available for you to listen to on BBC Sounds. Loads of podcasts. Just hit subscribe as well to the TMS podcast and you will not miss a thing. So much cricket from BBC Sport, such a busy summer. Thanks so much for listening. We'll speak to you soon.

Jeez, settle down, Tuffers.

Sorry, mate.

Cricket on Five Live Sport.

Oh, I'm living every ball of this.

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