Drones, toupees, and trees: Ask the umpire with Ian Gould.

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Very warm welcome to, uh, what's an old adversary many years ago, but someone who we saw a lot on the circuit, umpiring of course after that, Ian Gould. Lovely to have you here, Gunner.

Johnny, it's an absolute pleasure. I've got to say, and I said this to Tuffers earlier on, I don't think I've been quite as nervous as this.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, well, he got big, big boots to fill. I mean, John Holder. Yeah, John Dead Ball Holder.

I might be taking over that, man, somewhere along the line.

It always seemed to be— it, it was always— yes, his, his fallback position, uh, was, was dead ball. But you know what this is all about, don't you? I mean, you've been involved in cricket so long. You know what I mean? It's a fascinating game in all sorts of ways, isn't it? But, but this, this section that we do a couple of times a summer just raises the most extraordinary things. Only I think, only I think cricket could do, you know, long-standing feuds of when someone was caught from a tree or something and the other team won, or umpire was given, you know, not out, and were they right, all those sorts of things. But it's, it's just what cricket's all about, isn't it?

It's a completely mad game. Yeah, times you're standing out there and you're watching it and you think, why has that just happened? What made that happen? What? It's just, it's brilliant. But yeah, I'm still nervous though. Thanks for the great start.

I'm still warming up. I mean, humor's never far away though either, is it?

No, hopefully not. No, it's not.

And it always amazes me, it always amazes me, there's something that crops up every year. Oh yeah, I don't quite know what that is. What happens then? Well, actually, yeah, every year there's something that pops up.

It's because, Ian, I mean, and you're interesting because you obviously played, uh, and then became an umpire. It always seems to me that the, the players actually don't know the laws. And so you— I did— that's a fair comment. Do you think players know the laws as well as they should do?

Well, I'll be, I'll be wrong in saying that, yeah, the players do know what they're doing, but when I came out of playing and coaching during Philip's time Yes, I came into the unprimed world thinking I knew everything. Then 2 or 3 things happened in front of me and I went, thank God David Constant was standing on the other side. And then Merv Kitchen, the game, it just, as you rightly both say, it, it, something just crops up. Why? Yes, why? You turn up, one of my first games to turn up and the stumps weren't straight.

Oh no.

And then you think to yourself, how much did I drink the night before? No, it does. It's fascinating and people really get into it.

Yeah. Did you sort of then have to, in those early days of umpiring, sort of call on the experience of the other fella quite a lot?

Mervyn Kitchen.

Yeah.

David Constant.

Yeah.

Barry Ledbetter, who's probably my first coach.

Yeah.

Were completely outstanding. Outstanding. And you know my character— well, both of you know my character. I was a bit of a Jack the Lad, and they both said 'When you come into umpiring, you're gonna have to change this. You're gonna have to do it very, very straightforward. Signal properly. Stop talking.' Which is difficult for me, as you know. But they were absolutely fantastic to me. And then I was lucky enough to go up the next rung to be greeted by someone like Simon Torvell, who was unbelievably good. Unbelievably good. He knew everything about the game.

Yeah.

What—

and, and he was so kind, I've got to say. He was desperately kind to me when I first started, because some of the gigs, when you're away from home, you don't really know the players. When you're in England, you know everyone.

Yep.

You go over the overseas and suddenly you're in Bangladesh or someone like— you don't know anyone. He was outstanding. Oh, unbelievable. It's a shame he got out the game too early in my book, but That's his choice. Um, but then you had the characters. You had the madman from New Zealand, who's Billy Bowden. Well, yes, I, I've— Billy was a— he was probably the best decision maker that I've seen.

Really?

If you'd— when DRS came and he said to you, that's it, in leg stump, it was. Wow. But the one thing about Billy, tough as you'll love this, is he had a crooky finger. He did, supposedly. Supposedly. All right, well, I went on a course to, uh, ICC course to Dubai, and we went 10-pin bowling and he beat me. And I was a Slough champion. But if you think about it, how do you get that bent— how'd you get that bent finger in the ball?

How'd you let go of the ball?

Well, that's what I'm saying, because it was straight, one barrel straight. The only ever time that finger was bent was when he was giving out.

Yeah, but he did that brilliantly.

He's a great character. I enjoyed times with Billy.

I did. I didn't like I like when he used to start hopping and jumping about doing all the sixes when I was bowling. I must— oh no, yeah, a little bit.

Who was, who was the bowler when Clayton Lambert hit? Was it Jimmy Anderson out of Barbados?

Oh, part of it.

And he hit you miles out of Barbados, and Billy then started running around signaling his six, and Jimmy was like that very much. I don't think he was that overimpressed.

Ah, he wouldn't be. Well, right, um, Gunner, we've established you Yeah, yeah, there's more. And so you know what this is all about. Just relax and enjoy it. Relax and enjoy it.

Can I have a pint of lager? No, you can't.

You can have one afterwards.

What about— all right, okay.

No, right. I'm starting though because I have been distracted. We've all been distracted by this little drone that's buzzing about. In fact, I noticed this morning up on the big screen there's an announcement about it, that Sky are using this drone to improve their coverage. And actually They do get some amazing shots from just outside the ground looking in. You've got London in the background and the river and the Oval, so it's nice. Now, I haven't seen too many shots, um, and, and unlike Spider Cam, it's quite low and it seems to live just above the slips, just down here, which is why it keeps catching our eye because we're— it's right in, right in our line. And I was thinking to myself, because it's not so high up and so on what happens if the ball hits it? I mean, what happens if, uh, I don't know, Joe Root's on, on nought, uh, and somehow gets up there and, and the ball flicks the drone and the fielder catches it? You know, it's, it's, it could cause a bit of a rumpus. So, so what, what do you think would happen there? Because it's happened with Spidercam a couple of times, hasn't it?

It has. And I thought coming here this morning that Spidercam was still alive and well, and it used to be a bugbear when you're umpiring. I bet, because it distracted you. The shadow came onto the pitch, batters kept going, can you get rid of it? And the guy in the, in the marquee over there was having a bit of fun with it and whatever, but it was a real distraction. Um, and I think yesterday it happened in the game, um, in the ladies' game where he got hit. So if it's hit out by the batter, hits the drone, or what is this called? No, this is drone. Yeah, Spider Cam. It's a dead ball straight away.

Straight away, regardless of what happens.

The ball is not bold. Restart, restart. Right, so you can't be caught, you can't do anything. But judging it hitting the Spider Cam, hitting the wire, that takes a bit of doing.

Oh, little, little nick off a wire.

Off the wire. Can you hear the ping off the wire? Well, in front of 60,000 in Auckland, I don't think you don't.

Have you ever seen that happen? Yeah, hit the wire.

Yeah, it, um, Viret Kohli hooked one and he was going to— it was going straight down fine leg and it clipped the wire.

It was—

well, it was always hitting the wire, to be fair. We're not giving Viret out, are we?

Not without a ride. But if it was just, say, 6 to win, that's the last ball of the World Cup final, and you leather it, bang, and it's flying out the ground for 6 and just nicks the wire—

good luck.

Where's that ball?

You ain't getting off that field, are you, in any hurry?

That would be— that would be one Well, all sorts of trouble.

But I had a great colleague when— and he's an English lad, he's a brilliant, brilliant umpire, uh, so I thought I'd seek a bit of solace on whether I've got this right because I haven't been doing this for 6 years. So he said, yeah, yeah, you know, man, you've got it right, but if the bowler throws it in and it hits the wire or the drone or the Spider cam. It's run scored. What happened in that incident? It's run scored. It was dead ball, run scored, and the ball counts.

Oh right, did you know that? No.

Nor did I until 25 to 8 this morning.

It's a very good call.

It's a great call by Richard Kerber getting up that early on the day off. Yes, probably out jogging somewhere.

But is that— is that so right? So the fielder hits it?

Yeah, throws it and hits it. Yeah, it's dead ball, right? And there's an old umpire, you got dead ball, can I have the ball please? Yeah, so you take the ball off the fielders, dead ball, runs scored, and the ball, like with the other one, you replay the ball. We don't replay that, right?

Well, well, there you go.

I'm off then, thanks very much.

You've done very well there, guys. Yes, a nice little opener for you. Yeah, we've seen one down to fine leg.

Yeah, I've got one from Ed from the Newcastle Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Whilst playing garden cricket with my brother, if he hit the ball into the tree and it got stuck on a branch, I would then quickly climb up and collect the ball and claim it as being out, as the ball had not touched the ground. Would the same rule apply in Test match cricket?

Uh, good afternoon, Ed. Obviously you're desperately bored and you thought you'd try and catch me out here. I don't know many grounds in the, in the country now, or world, that have got a tree in it. We used to have one at Canterbury.

Yeah, we did.

You said that, done it.

I'm laying under it. Yeah, the stinking hot day cat is going perfect. And there, fine tuffers underneath it. Uh, no, um, I'm full of admiration that you've got up the tree very quickly, I've got to say that. But you've wasted your time, mate. Dead ball, let's move on.

Yeah, so it's not for Canterbury, it was 4, wasn't it?

Yeah. If it hit it, but not in a back garden. No, no, no, they haven't got any rules and regulations.

Oh, you haven't? Newcastle upon Tyne, for your back garden, you'll get a number of these over the, over the coming years. But yes, Canterbury, if you hit the ball into the tree, regardless of any part of the tree, yeah, it was, it was 4 runs on the full. It was 4, you couldn't be caught off it, it was just 4 runs, bang.

Yeah, yeah. Shane, how many times in your career did you see it happen?

Never.

I don't think I did.

I don't think I did.

It must have done.

The Kent boys must have seen it happen. So, uh, right, Edward Blue. Hello, Edward, thanks for joining us. In the last ball of a T20 match— this is one of these ones that hasn't actually quite happened, I think, but it could do— the batting side need 5 to win. Last ball, T20, okay? The batsman only manages to get it out to cover point, who fields the ball, and they run a single. To celebrate the win The fielder turns around and hurls the ball into the crowd, but the batting side argue that counts as 4 overthrows, so they've got the 5 that they need to win. Are they correct?

I think quietly, thinking on my feet is what I used to do an awful lot standing there umpiring. Yes, that's correct. And what's the gentleman's name?

Edward.

I'd go and find your P45 before you got back in your changing room. Because why would you want to throw it in the crowd?

Well, I know, but if you do—

oh, that's it, it's 5.

Because if you throw, if you let the ball go over the boundary when you're fielding in order to keep the batsmen at certain ends, you get in trouble for that, don't you? So what actually does happen if you do that? You get all the runs. If you let it go for 4, they don't count, do they? But if you throw it over, if you throw it over—

isn't— oh, throw it over. I think if you let it go, I think you're under the code of spirit of cricket, right? I don't think that that's right. Uh, if you throw it into the crowd, uh, and the ball's not dead, you've lost the game. I don't know what you're thinking, to be honest. Yeah, but you've lost the game.

Yeah, well, it's a very— right, Edward, well done. And if we ever see it, or we ever see it happen— well, I think, well, I think it's unlikely. I think it's unlikely.

Uh, well, as you said at the start of this, these things happen in front of us at the moment. We're not sure about. Yeah, you know, you don't know what's coming next.

No, you don't.

There's gonna be something over these next 3 and a half days you're gonna go, why did that happen? Yep. Well, as an umpire, you stand there and you— that's when you've got to start thinking on your feet.

And do you take it— just do you take a deep breath and just sort of—

yeah, you try and find your partner as quickly as you can, right? Just get in the middle on the side and just get together and just go, what happened? Yeah, a little Because sometimes you don't see it. Things happen, fielders get in your way, and yeah, certain times, you know, you know, you've got to be very, very on guard with your, with your colleague. Yeah, interesting.

Works as a team.

Yeah, that's it. PCT. Yes, playing control team. Oh God, how many times did I hear that?

Got one here for you, mate. Now this wouldn't necessarily apply to Aggers and I. What happens if a batter is given out by the umpire but he or she simply refuses to leave the crease? Does the batting team forfeit the match?

That's an old one.

That is interesting.

I don't think that is one I don't think I've ever seen.

Leg it off.

Yeah, yeah. Most people I saw batting from 6 down just run off.

Well, especially Sussex, alluring him around running.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, yeah, yeah, me screaming behind them.

Yes, you did. Um, quite annoying.

I think you probably need to get a stretcher, put them on the stretcher and take them off. Yeah. Oh no, what if they do? Well, you've got to go, haven't you?

Yeah.

Yes, you've got to go at some stage. Can't be there all night.

Should be spirit of cricket again, would it?

Yeah, yeah. And you'd probably be banned for the next, yeah, 3 games or something. Yeah, modern day world. That's brilliant.

I'm not going.

No, I'm staying here.

What are you going to do about it?

Come on then, who do you think you are, big time Charlie? Yeah, no, right.

Well, let's say it's unlikely that Philip and Ida will be in that scenario. Now, Jim from Hartford, good afternoon to you. As a very regular radio listener and TV viewer to all forms of cricket, is it in the interpretation of the umpire as to when an appeal has been made. Many times over the audio of the radio or TV, one can hear a range of noises from bowling sides, from screaming banshee to various forms of staccato, guttural, nondescript noises, none of which seem to include the word "How's that?" Is that word actually required? And actually, that's true. You do see bowlers just running through going, "Argh!" It is required.

Uh, and you have to turn as well as you're screaming, how's that?

Or how is that?

How is that?

How is that? And I've seen one or two bowlers— because you get, you can get fined or get demerit points for not addressing the umpire with appeal.

Yes, Stuart Broad would do that a bit, wouldn't he?

He just did everything, whatever he wanted. Don't worry about Stuart, his old man was a match referee, wasn't he? He could do what he wanted. His old man would put him in, you know, go to court with him. Yes, but no, technically by law you have to say, "How's that?" and turn around to say, "How's that?" Speaking to you. Yeah, I'm, I'm going to answer your question, but I'm not going to talk to you back.

Wow. But you see, we see that a lot with it.

No, you do, you do. And, and it's just, it's not polite. And I think if you didn't turn around to someone like Alan Whitehead— oh yes— and Jonathan, what do you think would be the next move?

Well, it might be, yes, it'd be forceful. Yeah, it would be like boxing, Alan, didn't he used to warm up in the mornings?

I'm trying to think what Senior Bumble used to call him. Um, but no, that is, that is law. That is, is you should turn around, right? And you, the match referee can reprimand you for not doing that. Yes, well, it's a slap on the wrist.

So if you don't, but if you're out, the reality is if you're out there umpiring and someone's nicked a big one behind and the bowler goes running through going, ah, You're going to give it out, aren't you?

Yeah, you would hope you would give it out, but there's some people of the impression— when I first started, that if the bowler did what you asked him to do and he nicked it to slip and the batter started walking off, by courtesy you didn't give them out because they're doing the job for you. But okay, as time's gone on, there's merit points. It's like being at school. So the most The amount of decisions that you make add up, and then there, there's a percentage of how many right decisions you've made in the game. Ah, so if you smack it to extra cover, there's certain umpires in the world give you out.

Yeah, because if they don't, they might get— it might be counted.

Well, no, no, if you put them— if you put your finger up, then the referee's got to log it, correct decision.

Right, so we don't do anything.

No. Oh, oh, I didn't know that.

No, I didn't know that.

No, but it's, it's a strange world. Yes, because I had, you know, talking about David Constant and Mervyn, people like that, they were the first people that— and Simon Torford to a point— taught you in a manner that you, that you wanted. The way I wanted to umpire is the umpire, the umpire like me. Because at the end of it, if someone speaks to you and says hello, you say hello back and whatever, just be courteous.

Yes, a bit of respect.

Yeah, but there's a lot of people just stare at you. And go out. And up there, or wherever the match referee sits, up the top there, he's got a little computer and he's logging it in. Correct decision, tick. Well, well, mad.

Yeah, so you have a big, big slog out like that last one at the end there when the catch is taken, the deep, and some will give it out because you imagine doing a One Day International and you probably only get 2 decisions in the game.

All right, so you don't give one of them out, but you give the other one out. You just get 50% for that game, and that don't half hurt your back pocket. Or yeah, that does hurt your back pocket.

Well, that, that, that is, that's, that's enlightening. Well, thank you.

Yeah, but I think it goes back to being courteous.

Yes.

You know, you don't want to go on the field with Philip, you know, remember the umpire, and you, John, you remember the umpires that you went Gotta be careful here. Yeah, gotta be a bit careful. Yeah, all the other ones like Ray Julian.

Yeah, oh, I love it.

Ray, just smile at you.

Love, right?

Come on, love.

Come on, tough. Let's bowl him out. Last one, back for a bit.

You, you would bowl uphill into a gale to Ray Julian's end.

Wonderful umpire. Yeah, unless it's your set of pads.

He does, he does, he does.

Before his time, right?

Before his time. You can imagine him in this with DRS.

Yeah. Yeah.

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From BBC Radio 5 Live.

Right, I've got one here. Dom from Macclesfield. Afternoon, TMST. This is my favourite segment. Oh, well, good, good. I have a very realistic scenario for you. A fielder is rather embarrassed about their bald spot, so they have decided to wear a toupee. As the bowler is running in, a gust of wind hits our follicly challenged fielder, which blows the hairpiece— the ball— which blows off the hairpiece. The ball is guided away towards the boundary. However, it hits the hairpiece, slowing the ball up enough to stop a certain boundary. What is the call? 5 runs or good fielding? Crikey, that's a— that's a bit of a left field. I said, go on, have I read that wrong?

Give it up.

He's got a toupee, it blows it off, hits the ball, the toupee slows the ball down. Yes. Is that like hitting the helmet?

Blows off the hairpiece. Not part of the equipment.

Oh, it's not part of the—

right, well, I don't know, perhaps, perhaps he announced before the game it was going to be part of his equipment, but no. Well, I've got to say, what a dense hairpiece, isn't it?

I mean, we're talking something that's— yeah, if you're going to stop the ball, it's not just a little, you know, little, little squizzle.

I can't answer this because it— well, I can, but I'll answer it without trying to be too rude, Dom. Um, no, it's not part of the equipment. It's just funny. It's funny. And I'm afraid I'd have— that last batsman didn't want to walk off. I think I would have walked off and never come back in the game again. As you say, I wonder if this has happened. I'm gonna dream it up. It must have happened.

Well, yeah, he said a realistic scenario.

It'd have looked quite amusing.

Oh yeah.

See, I, I assume that, that, that the correspondent there was Keith Flat, our old friend for the Beard Liberation Front, right? But it wasn't. But this one is.

Well, um, a player—

here we go now. Oh, a player edges a ball to a slip fielder with a long W.G. Grace-style beard. The ball lodges in the beard.

Lodges in the beard.

Well, she got wax on it.

Then after an interval of a few seconds, drops to the ground without the fielder touching it. Is the batsman out? And I'm going to give you a little clue here, possibly, because John Holder did rule out one from Keith Flett from the Beard Liberation Front. If the slips were lined up together, all bearded, and they linked, they sort of weaved their beards together like a fisherman's net, and the ball went into it, he ruled that out because the beard is part of the person.

Oh, without doubt it is. And is he in control of the ball?

That's the thing.

If he's in control of the ball and he's got it stuck in his beard for a period of time, Well, very good luck to him. He best shave the beard off and see if he's got a nick underneath.

He says a few seconds. I mean, how long would you need if it feels in the beard for?

If he feels that it's— if he feels— if the umpire feels that he's in control of it, then off you go. Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, it'd be wonderful, it'd be a great sight. So he's not touched it? No, in the beard, it's locked in there.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, how did you get me on this program? Right, I'm expecting it down the middle now.

Here we go, here we go. In a recent Under-13 Surrey League match, the wicketkeeper placed his unused helmet directly behind the stumps rather than behind him as you'd typically expect. He was standing back to a medium pacer when the batsman took a quick single, and as the fielder through at the stumps, it hit the helmet first before hitting the stumps. The batsman was given out, run out. Is this the right— is this right, or should it have been given 5 runs?

My interpretation of that, Philip, is that as soon as it hits the helmet, it's 5 penalty runs. Yeah, it's like we keep throwing his glove off and the ball gets thrown and it's the keeper's glove, the one that's lying on the floor. Right, that's 5 penalty runs. And the lesson behind that is put the helmet behind you. Yeah, I don't— I think you could— I can't honestly answer this because I don't know whether it's law to have it— you have to have it behind, right, the wicketkeeper. Yeah, the thing is with it, I have a bugbear about the keeper and the helmet, is that the number of times where a seamer bowls one end and the spinner bowls the other and the helmet's taken off because they don't want to get penalized 5 penalty runs. By the time that helmet gets taken from off the field to bring it onto the field for the spinner, the amount of time that is wasted.

Yes.

And how many times— it's a keeper, you're supposed to stop it, aren't you? Well, smother it. I mean, do you remember that first ball at Lords last week, or week before, off Matt Henry? That— oh yeah, Tom Blundell's a great— Yeah, he saved that like Peter Shilton because he bounced that many times to me, just dived on it to try and stop it. I'd say, I'd say the helmet's got to be behind the, behind a keeper. Yeah, and if it hits it, it's 5 penalty runs. Yeah, yeah, even if it deflects off it and then hits, I think, I think if it hits the helmet at any place, it's 5 penalty runs. Yeah, yeah, if there's 2 helmets and it hits both of them, I know where you're going, I know where you're going, and I've known your humor for a very long time.

Exceptionally good, like a cannon. Cannon. It'd just be bouncing around. 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35.

I saw a game in Sri Lanka when this thing turned, and they had Mutturitharan and Pakistan had Ajmal. And I remember walking on that field and thinking, I've got no chance here. But anyway, for some reason, which was a miracle, they brought a seamer on, and behind was a row of 4 helmets all the way back. And I was like, And the same thing is what you're saying. I actually went to my partner and went, what if it's all full? And he just dismissed me as I was taking the mickey, but I wasn't. I was actually being very, very serious.

You don't see it often these days. I think I remember having once or twice when we played, but you don't often see the ball hit the helmet.

You don't very often because it's normally sitting in that dugout 120 yards away. True. If you had somebody in there now Sitting here with a stop clock, how much time is wasted there? And the amount of times that I've been battered since I've retired about not having 90 overs in a day. Yeah, some of this stuff, the drone, the helmet off the field, takes time. Yeah, it's interesting.

And Matthew Fleming, I just— a bit of a distraction, but it's worth asking you anyway. Matthew Fleming, when he was involved at MCC, I think semi-seriously we were talking about overruns. Great to talk to you about it. He said, quite simple, find the umpires. Now how would that sit? Oh, oh, find the umpires because they will keep the game moving.

Yes.

Is that Matthew who's got a bank?

Yes.

All right, I wonder why he said find the umpires.

But could you— could the umpire speed it up?

No disrespect to this, it is, is amazing that you say to them, no drinks at this time, that time, people, all the wickets and whatever. If we got, if we got a minute here, just a second. Yeah, I did a one-day international in India. That's a long time ago, ago. And then a young up-and-coming who's now turned into a brilliant cricketer in Hardik Pandya. Oh yes, oh yeah, he was a very young 12th man in this game. Anyway, we had real problems with MS Dhoni changing his gloves and bats. He must have changed— if he got, if he got 60, changed his bats. Every 6 overs 10 times. So anyway, he said, right, we've got to stop this. So at a pre-series meeting, no more running on bats and gloves and things like that. First game, Dhoni's gone, waved his bat, gloves, whatever, and this Hardik Pandya, he's about 19, he's come running at me and I've given him that one.

No.

And he swerved around me, went to Dhoni gave him his new bat and a new pair of gloves and walked past. And I said, 'Ah, Dick, we've made a law that you cannot bring that on.' And he said, 'If ever MS Dhoni wants a bat and a pair of gloves, he's having them.' The game was delayed 5 minutes because I was on the floor laughing at this kid. It was brilliant.

Probably true, isn't it?

No, it was true. If you're not going to take that on for Dhoni—

no, no, no, you're in trouble.

It's like giving Sachin LBW.

What would you have done?

Well, I did do that famously. Yeah, thankfully it was overturned and I got out of India after. I remember a game when Nigel Long gave— I think he gave Sachin out once off Johnson. What was his name? Mitchell Johnson. Oh yes, slippery, back-of-a-length bowler, just pitched outside leg by a fingernail. Anyway, no DRS. We get to Hyderabad airport and they're burning effigies of Longy. And I'm like, wow, I ain't giving him out.

But you gave Saturn out in the semi-final of the World Cup.

Yeah, right.

Dave Neaves: I'm a league umpire. Oh, I was officiating a T20 Cup match on Sunday and a right-arm bowler was bowling to a left-handed batsman. He decided to bowl round the wicket. His first delivery saw him finish right in front of me. I couldn't see where the ball ended up. But I suspected it was a wide. As I couldn't make a decision either way, and so no team either benefited or lost out, I called it a dead ball. Fielding side weren't happy about this, but did I make the correct decision?

Um, the only thing that you give away, uh, in that is the guess that it may have been a wide.

Yeah.

And I'd say umpiring is not a great, great vehicle to be guessing in.

A few have had to go though.

Yeah.

Don't worry, I've had more than my share.

Don't worry.

And when it's come up on that screen, correct, it's not a dead ball. Uh, what you've got to do is insist that the bowler moves away.

Yes.

Because you cannot judge.

So you can tell him that?

Oh yeah, very much so. Get off the pitch. Get off. This is my pitch, it's not yours.

Right.

And that's the big thing in, in modern-day cricket, is that I don't think on occasions we're strong enough for it. Though the difference is the pitches are much harder in like England and places like that, Australia, New Zealand, they don't make so much damage. But as you know, going to India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, the soils are lighter and bowlers running up and down that makes serious craters, scuffing up, proper scuffing. Yeah, so you have to be very aware. And the other thing about it It's a bit like Keith Barker when he came over the wicket and he ran down a wicket where you couldn't see the moon, let alone wickets. I mean, he's a big boy, Keith.

Yeah, right, right.

Yes, we had an amazing situation. Boom, a ball came through to me as keeper, asked for a catch for a clear nick noise, then looked— the leg bail undisturbed, off bail perched on off stump. What is the decision?

Outstanding, brilliant decision. Is he giving it out?

I don't know. I don't know. What's the decision?

Oh, out. The boughs are still there, they're undisturbed. The other one's on top of the stump. Yeah, I'll be on the deck.

What, not just out of the grooves? It's actually got to fall on the floor.

Yeah.

So if it's— oh right, so if it's just sort of perched there, swizzled round and stays on top of it, that's not out. I thought it was undisturbed. Every year you'd heard something.

I might be totally wrong there, but I thought—

oh, I hope not. You're the professional.

No, I'm not. You know that, Cat. The thing is about it, I had a miracle. You know when you say about guessing? Yes. I had a miracle decision of the greatest guess I've ever had in my life. Was at Cape Town when Dale Steyn, who was one of the greatest outswing bowlers in history, was bowling to a very unhelpful Harbhajan Singh. He didn't want to get behind the ball here, Harbhajan. And Dale's bowled one that's pitched off and just held its line, and Harbhajan is playing it through mid-wicket. So in my humble opinion, he cannot hit this. I hear a noise, but I think I'm going with my gut feeling. So I gave it not out. They went bonkers, absolutely bonkers, South Africans who were trying to bowl India out. Anyway, it came up, it did hit the bail, and everyone said it was a great decision, but it weren't. It was the greatest guess in history because I didn't think the batter was good enough to—

oh no.

Oh, so you used a little bit of your cricketing sort of—

yeah, you do, Cat. Yeah, you do a little bit, you know. You know, I've done it in that.

No, that's just—

ain't it? If I— if Sachin ain't hitting it, he ain't hitting it, you know what I mean? Especially when he's a couple of feet leg side of it.

Yeah.

And that face is going over the back of you.

So it must have been the stump. That's what— that's how you, you sort of worked it.

Bell ringing in the distance for a couple more. No, you haven't finished yet. If this ever happens, I'd love to see it, but Stuart from Berkhamsted: In a T20 International, the batsman clubs a six over deep mid-wicket. It triggers the fire cannons that surround the boundary into action. Unfortunately, just as the ball is flying over the rope, the closest fire cannon shoots up into the sky and incinerates the cricket ball, leaving a mere puff of dust. Is it a 6 or is it a dead ball?

Where is he doing this game?

I don't know where he's doing it, but it's a cannon. They do go off, don't they, those things? Yeah, they shoot up.

Are you talking about on the boundary?

The boundary edge.

Hopefully they're behind. It'd be a bit hot if they're in front.

So it's already gone for 6.

It's already gone.

Yeah, so it can incinerate the ball.

And then we've got to find another one.

The ball.

We'll find another ball of the similar ilk.

Yep, there you are.

Still not easy.

No, it's not. I'd like to see it.

Have you seen— have you been past one of those cannons when they go off?

Yes, they bang.

They're not fun, are they?

No, they're not.

You feel the heat.

Not with a Brian Arlo umpiring shirt on.

They're not too clever. You do, you feel, you feel the heat. Yeah, you do feel the heat.

Tuffers, you got another one?

Oh yes, here we go. I was watching the Women's World Cup game on Monday. The ball was heading towards the boundary when someone stopped the ball short of the rope and threw it to a fielder. The person who stopped it was not a player. But perhaps a member of one of the teams. Is it still 4?

It's a bit like here all the time, isn't it, with the pigeons? It's the pigeons.

Yes, bless them.

If, yeah, the umpires are the sole— I believe the umpires are the sole judges of whether it would have gone for 4, and that's it. Yeah, you know, I had it in India once where one of the boys were fielding, ball boys were on the outside Yeah, and he just— excitement just come running on and hurled it back. You left the field ringing because it was still going like a tracer bullet. I think common sense approach is if you think it's going for 4, just give it a swing. Yeah, I like the signal cap.

Yeah, did you used to practice?

You sort of be in the mirror.

According to Law 29, right, here we go, Laws of Cricket: at least one bale must be fully removed from its grooves. A temporary disturbance of the bail, if it shifts but stays on the stumps, yes, does not count as a dismissal.

Oh, look at that.

Right, you are correct.

Oh my life.

Well, correct. Oh my God, you've passed! You've passed your first test, right?

I'm straight into the beehive.

Good. They got a bit of pressure on, but you've come through it.

Yeah.

Ah, if you'd have seen the state of me. After the last couple of days trying to go through that little blue book. And as Graham Fowler once said, I can't see you being an umpire because you've got an attention span of a gnat. I can't thank Graham for that.

Well, that's a tremendous debut. Yes, kind of. Well done.

The bail done me.

No, no, you got it right.

I've got sweaty armpits in a bail.

You're right, you're there. Well done, mate.

Thank you.

Lovely to see you, and we'll see you again. We'll see you again, right? Yeah, yeah, we'll have you back.

Is that right?

Yeah, we'll think of some more weird and wonderful ones.

There's some there, Cat. There's some there that I've—

well done, well done, Ian, and welcome, welcome to the team. Yes, lovely to have you with us. There we go, Ian Gould. Uh, terrific, great stuff, and bang on there with the, with the challenging one at the end. So well done.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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