Duckett century sparks England fightback

This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Formula 1 is all about precision, tiny margins, massive ambition, flat-out performance. And that's exactly why it's exciting to see Cadillac entering Formula 1, bringing an American luxury brand with performance pedigree onto the biggest stage in motorsport. But this isn't just about the grid. That same racing mindset, the obsession with engineering, the pursuit of perfection, lives in the Cadillac V-Series lineup, giving you the chance to experience the precision and performance of the grid on the open road. Cadillac V-Series: distinctive luxury performance, engineered to thrill. Discover the V-Series lineup at cadillac.com. Odoo—providing tools for businesses across industries into one fully integrated platform. Whatever your business needs, Odoo is committed to providing it. Learn more at odoo.com.

This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Sandler moves in and bowls to Duckett, stretches for it, turns into the onside, they're off for a quick single, throw comes at the non-striker's end, it's wide, Duckett's home for 100. It's his 7th in Test match cricket, it'll mean such a lot to him after a lean year. Missed by Henry Nicholls on 8, but he has made the most of it. Helmet off, and there's some relief in that celebration. And why wouldn't there be after the spell he's been through? But he's home and he's made it count.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So welcome to our review of the second day of this third and deciding Test match between England and New Zealand at Trent Bridge. And what a position England are in after a really tough first day in which New Zealand scored 361 for 4. They were 317 for no wicket. New Zealand bowled out for 438, and by the close of play, England 223 for 2 with Bethell 74 not out and a 7th Test hundred for Ben Duckett, who made 113. Ben Stokes, the star with the ball, 3 for 13 in the spell of 8 overs, 4 for 70 overall. A couple of wickets for Bashir and Archer finishing it off. So 438 all out, 6 for 67 today in 30 overs, and New Zealand losing their last 10 wickets for 121. To review the day, Michael Vaughan and Jonathan Agnew. Well, I guess cricket can confound you. I mean, who would have thought yesterday at 300 for no wicket that we've been in this situation in the game after 2 days?

Well, New Zealand certainly didn't. I mean, they'll look— they will look back. They've had their moments. A couple of poor shots yesterday. I know it's hot and, you know, the cold may be batting a long time and all those sorts of things. You can offer excuses, but if you're looking at moments in which the game changed, then you have to say that those, those two dismissals, him and Ravindra, were culpable. And then I thought Ben Stokes was terrific today with the ball. He bowled a better length. It's, it's, it's quite a skill to bowl successfully to lower order batsmen. Uh, and the night watchman O'Rourke is perfectly happy with that. Really full length is tempting to bowl too full. Because you want to hit the stumps. You think he can't bat, averages 2, he's gonna miss a straight ball. Well, you know, a lot of batsmen can quite happily— low order batsmen can just pat that back. The skill is bowling just that fraction short of a length. That's when, uh, someone like O'Rourke will get confused and misread length and, and get out. And Stokes, Stokes is brilliant at doing that. And he bowls a long spell, inspirational in the heat. I'll tell you what I think is going— it's a thought after all the nonsense of the last couple of weeks— I think we're going to Baz Ball revisited in this game. You see the way the New Zealand bowled there what they've got. That's a flimsy attack. And I can just see what if, you know, it's, it's, I know it's way down the line, but you can just see England coming out and repeating what they did here 4 years ago, smashing that attack all over the place, winning the game, and everything's, everything's marvelous again.

Well, we've seen some fluctuations in this game. Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, but, and you can, you can see, you know, how the game might progress here, uh, Michael. I mean, people will look at this 10 for 121, New Zealand's collapse. Think, well, something wrong with the pitch, or— but it wasn't, was it?

No, no, absolutely not. England, I totally agree with Agus actually. It's, uh, I thought yesterday they didn't quite have the, the aura of the 4 years ago team. But if you actually look at what they've done today, it's exactly what the team 4 years ago did, you know, get wickets from pretty much nowhere. Um, You look at New Zealand, they've made some glaring errors with the bat, particularly those two late wickets last night, which shouldn't really have happened. And then England just probed away. They came a bit tighter this morning, they got it a little bit fuller, um, made it very difficult for New Zealand. New Zealand, for me, they didn't quite have the oomph in their batting this morning.

A bit passive, do you think?

Yeah, it was like they were waiting for the bad ball, whereas they weren't really trying to put them under pressure, uh, the England bowlers. So England have had a tremendous day. Ben Duckett's a player that you can't give a chance to, and that third slip drop catch when he was on 8, Joe Root would have been walking out there, what, in the fourth over of the innings when Arook was bowling quick and there was a bit of bounce there with the new ball. And that really is a big talking point, and maybe at the end of the Test we'll be looking at that again, because I think if they'd have got Ben Duckett out for 8 and England would have been 15 for 2, you know, I think we could have been talking about a different day. But England have managed to completely dominate the day with some really good batting, some wonderful play by Jacob Bethell and Ben Duckett. But it's that man Ben Stokes, you know, with the ball in hand this morning, he makes things happen. You know, he just gets wickets when England desperately need someone to do something. Over the last few years, particularly, uh, this Test match side, it's generally Ben Stokes.

Effort and energy, isn't he? He's just— he just— I mean, you know, it's an old cliché about leading from the front, but he really does with the ball. He— there's no one tries harder than Stokes. And he stood up head and shoulders above the other day. I'm not saying others weren't trying, but somehow Stokes has just got that— he's got that little bit extra.

Because the first 40 minutes today, nothing much was happening for England.

No. And Joff Archer, what, 3 overs and 5 balls taken off? You think, okay, you know, we've got the night watchman. I didn't think actually that he in particular really got stuck into the night watchman enough, and Tung for that matter. That doesn't— the average of 2 doesn't want to be facing balls whistling around his, around his ears. And there wasn't, there wasn't enough of that for me. There were, there were, as I said earlier, just trying to— they were trying to hit the stumps. Um, and it was only when Stokes came on that he said drop that length a little bit that O'Rourke really looked troubled. Yeah, until then he played, he played very easily.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, I mean, I look at this pitch and I'm trying to work out what, what's going to happen to it because we have seen the odd ball that's bounced, we have seen the odd ball that's kept low, we've seen no spin. Santner has not played any cricket, red ball cricket, for a long period of time. Really showed, didn't it? Yeah, he looked rusty. Um, you look at this New Zealand bowling attack on this kind of wicket, and, and you don't want to disrespect New Zealand, but as a batter, um, you know it's in your favor.

Yeah. Okay, two men of the day for England today: Ben Stokes with that fine spell, but also Ben Duckett as well. His 7th Test match hundred, 113 before he played on to Nathan Smith, and he joins us live now from down on the outfield. Many congratulations, Ben. What was that feeling like when you notched that 100 after the time you've had really in international cricket recently?

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone saw with, you know, how I celebrated the 100, how much it meant to me. Yeah, it was actually quite emotional, obviously my home ground. And yeah, you said it, I haven't been, you know, scoring the runs I'd have liked. So, you know, after being in the heat for a day and a half and to go out there and, you know, score 100 at this ground, yeah, it meant the world to me.

Did it help actually being at home? You just felt comfortable here?

I mean, obviously I know the dimensions and everything, but yeah, I guess having success here, I think I've been playing well recently and I just haven't had that score and just kind of trusting my game and playing my natural way. And, you know, I'm really glad I did that.

So you haven't tried to do anything different, just keep playing and hope that works eventually?

I mean, I've been working really hard on my game, you know, in the nets and stuff and in the Counter Championship stuff leading up to this and my fitness as well, which probably helps on a day like today. Just trusting the way that I play and trusting the hard work that I've put in, that, you know, there was going to be a score around the corner.

And when you see that catch go down when you've made 8, do you think, actually, this could be it? Because you had that unfortunate run out at the Oval where you were playing well and scoring quickly and then you were out. But today, kind of, it's funny how cricket works, isn't it?

Yeah, that's the game. And, you know, the run out, you know, when you're in form, that misses and you go on and score score runs there. And, you know, I wasn't necessarily thinking it today, but obviously on a good pitch like that, you know, we know what it's like in the field. You don't want to, you don't want to miss out on opportunities. You don't have to try and get someone out 2 or 3 times. So yeah, I mean, I'm very thankful that that got put down on another day. You know, I'm in the hut for 8 or whatever I was on.

I mean, collectively it was 300 whatever. For no wicket yesterday. What's that like as a team and what sort of conversations are you having out there?

Well, I think you've used— you know, everyone saw, you know, we gave absolutely everything and we never gave in. I think, you know, certainly in that heat, you know, they could have gone on to score 500, 600, 700. You know, we kept believing in what we do and we, you know, we never wanted to throw the towel in. And I don't know what we were today. I think it was around 100 for 7, and I just think it was an incredible effort from our bowlers to, you know, keep us in a game where we can actually go and win it from this position. You know, if we don't do that and they bat better there, you know, there's only probably one team who can win. So, you know, I'd say the game's in the balance right now, and, you know, we've got to do the same thing tomorrow and bat, you know, try and bat as long as we can and get ourselves in a position where, you know, the game's on the line and both sides can win. And what's it like having Ben Stokes back in the team? I mean, his spell was, you know, a massive reason of why we're in this position today. You know, he deserved 5 and more, you know, the work that he puts in. And, you know, I don't know how many overs he bowled, but to keep running in like he did, you know, in this heat after a full day in the dirt, you know, that's exactly why everyone loves having Ben Stokes leading this team. He leads by example and it's very easy to follow that because he's doing it. Well, he bowled 8 overs in that spell.

Just one final question, uh, Ben, what about this surface? I mean, you play here a lot. What do you expect to happen to this pitch? I mean, it feels very dry.

Yeah, I mean, obviously I play a lot of county cricket here, so it's a bit different, but I think with the heat, um, you know, it might spin a bit later on. Certainly, you know, the longer we bat, obviously we're probably going to be the team batting last, but we're in a position where You know, we've got England's greatest at the crease and Jacob playing really well. You know, if we win the morning session and then the session after that and just trying to be as ruthless as we can, hopefully we can get a lead on this pitch, which is going to be massive. You know, even, you know, me chopping on today, it's going to be that kind of pitch down the line where, you know, you want to be bowling as much as you can at the stumps and trying to create dismissals that way. Ben, many congratulations, uh, well played.

I'm gonna have a rest, gonna have an early night. Thank you, I can't wait. I'm sure on this, uh, very hot day here at Trent Bridge. 113 for, for Ben Duckett, an 88-ball hundred.

Yeah, brilliant. I like the way you said have an early night. Yeah, that's advisable with this England team. Um, oh yeah, he's a wonderful player. He makes it so difficult for bowlers. He hits the bowlers' better balls to the boundary, you know. I think that if you look at New Zealand where they bowled to him today, I thought they bowled a little bit too wide and they freed him up. That's exactly where he wants the ball. I think to, uh, Ben Duckett, you've got to come a little bit tighter. But even when they came tighter with the older ball, he had great balance to work it through on the onside. He took on the short ball with control. Obviously he was out to the short ball last week at the Oval, but he controlled his pull shots nicely. And I think you get in your career grounds that you just like. You know, this is his home venue. His Test record here now is exceptional. He got a big hundred last year against Zimbabwe. He's obviously got another one now, a couple of 70-odd against New Zealand the last time round. You're kind of looking at a player that just knows the venue, and that little pocket in the corner, which is such a short hit down to that side, he just seems to be able to open the blade from quite straight deliveries to cause chaos with the captain from whoever he's playing against. And he must be a nightmare to captain against because you kind of spread the field and there's loads of gaps and he can just work into gaps. So you're never getting a dot ball against him and he can still find the boundary when the boundary riders are put out on either side. So yeah, a wonderful innings. What, an 88-ball hundred? It's his second. I think he got one in Rajkot. A few years ago, a similar rate. And it kind of reminded me, when the bad ballers have been really good with the bat in hand, it's generally when Duckett's got England off to a flying start. And that was a nice reminder of what we've seen over the last few years.

There was evidence of the reset though, the way he spoke, I thought. Yeah, I mean, often you've got some utterly maverick interviews with Ben Duckett over the years, didn't we? I mean, nonsense. That was a really controlled, calm, thoughtful, honest You know, you said at the start about, you know, the lack of runs he'd had, and he admitted, yeah, he wouldn't have said that a couple of years ago. He'd have had a bit of a feisty, you know, response. And I thought he batted like that, you know, he batted at a great rate, but it wasn't— it wasn't—

didn't feel frantic at all. He just played beautifully.

He just played beautifully. And if that's the way that he's going to play from now on, and that's going to be his approach and his attitude, well, I think that's brilliant. It just seemed to stand out to me. I mean, you know, I've interviewed him many times. You never quite know what you're going to get, do you? That was That was excellent. It was really considered, honest, thoughtful.

But also, I mean, I know it's a talking point, but you know, they all are absolutely desperate for Ben Stokes to lead them. You know, Ben Stokes drives this team. I can never put a percentage on what Ben Stokes is worth to this Test team, but it's beyond 20%. Yeah, because what he brings in terms of his bowling, in terms of his— you know, his batting's not been great of late, he'll be the first to admit that, but It's his energy and it's his body language and it's his persona. And I think they all kind of get behind him and go, we'll just, we'll just follow the leader. So England with Ben Stokes at the helm is obviously in Test cricket in particular a much stronger team.

Another left-hander who's had a lean time of it in this series— he didn't have a lean time in the Ashes, he played that magnificent innings at Sydney. Jacob Bethell, what about him today?

I think very beautifully, you know. He's— what I love about Bethell, and a lot of, a lot of left-handed batsmen seem to stand quite tall when they drive, and actually in some ways it can be really attractive, but it can also be a bit of a failing. You know, it's a little bit, a little bit upright, a little bit away from the body. I love the way he drives. He's right into the shot. His knee bends, isn't he? And he's so low, his whole body is kind of going with the line, with the line of the shot. He played some wonderful, wonderful strokes today. I mean, he is immensely talented. Yeah, he should score thousands of runs for England, but it's just the way that particularly stands out for me. It's that really compact way. I know Michael talked much more technically about batting than I ever could, but that just stands out to me that he's right in it. He's absolutely right in the shot, very controlled. Um, it doesn't strike me as being one of those left-handed batsmen who could be a little bit upright and a bit drivey and edge to slip.

Yeah, absolutely. He's a quality player. I mean, we've seen that in Sydney, we've seen it in white ball cricket as well. I think he'd be the first to admit that Ben Duckett really helped him, you know, because the scoreboard was flying because Ben Duckett was playing so beautifully. So as a player at the other end, you're not worried about the scoreboard, you know, you're not panicking that the scoreboard's not flying. You've got your partner who's playing so well, putting the and opposition bowlers under pressure. And when you get a player like Ducky who does that, you know, a bowler generally going— well, you'll know, I guess, as a bowler, you're bowling safe because you don't want to go for too many more. And I felt they bowled okay to him at the start. There's a couple of those balls that nip back that have had him out LBW in the first two Test matches that, you know, on another day when the pitch is a bit faster, it could have been caught on the crease. But he finds a way. You know, he finds a way, kind of came out of his crease and he worked it on the onside a few times. So he's saying to the bowler, I'm not going to get trapped on the crease, I'm going to try and say to you that I'm going to come out. The keeper came up and he played it nice and late. Um, yeah, those cover drives are poetry, they really are. And he doesn't try— I mean, Joe Root played a cover drive at the back end there, it was like a forward defense and it went for 4. Um, yeah, you know, 2 players from Sheffield Collegiate You know, Joe Root, Jacob's dad Graham, was the captain. I'm sure— I think he arrives tomorrow, Graham, from Barbados. So hopefully he gets here for 11 o'clock, because if his son can survive half an hour— we, we, we all know that in Test cricket, any cricket, you've got to start again tomorrow. And if they can still be there at half past 11, it wouldn't surprise me at all if both this pair get 3 figures.

And glory be for Bethel, first innings runs. Because that hasn't happened very much in his short Test match career so far. I wonder what New Zealand are thinking tonight. I wonder, they're kind of kicking themselves really when you think of the position they were in yesterday. Well, let's find out. Daniel Norcross has been speaking to Darrell Mitchell.

So Darrell, a really tough day for New Zealand today, but still well in the game.

Yeah, look, we've obviously still got a lead, and I thought, you know, to— in the first things, if you say we're going to get 460, you take that most times. So, um, Yeah, for us it's now, it's building a period of pressure in the morning and trying to take a few wickets and see what this game will bring us.

You've been hit by a few blows in this game before the game started, the loss of Matt Henry, Kyle Jamieson, and now Blair Tickner as well. That's really going to stretch your bowlers.

Yeah, look, firstly, it's never ideal when you lose a number one bowler in the world in Matt Henry, plus Kyle Jamieson's not far behind, but also gutted for Ticks. We know how excited he was for this Test match and the sort of energy that he can bring with the ball, but Yeah, I know he's probably not feeling too great right now, so hopefully he can recover well and you'll see him soon.

Well, all eyes are on the pitch because a lot of runs being scored quite quickly, but also things are happening quite quickly. Give us an assessment of the surface.

Look, I think that's probably a reflection of when you do play England, they do find ways to fast-forward the game, shall we say, whether that be baseball or whatever you want to put it. But yeah, for us it's trying to be really consistent with how we want to operate both with bat and ball and be ruthless at times. Look, I obviously— I think we didn't start the way we wanted to with the ball, but I think the way we picked it back in that last hour and showed how we want to operate tomorrow is really clear.

Did you say so England's bowling plans changed from yesterday to today? It looked to us like they've gone a little bit straighter.

Yeah, look, I thought they bowled really well this morning and they obviously got their rewards with it. I was out there for that first sort of hour and yeah, I thought the way that they operated was was very good and set a blueprint for how we wanted to try and do it as well. So look, Test cricket, this is why we love it. It's bloody hard, but it's bloody good fun as well.

Finally, I want to ask you about your dismissal.

That looked like the thinnest possible edge. Did you feel it?

No, I thought I hit my pad. And yeah, it's one of those ones where the game tests you and finds ways to annoy you. But yeah, that's also why we love it, is we come back and we show up again and we get stuck in.

Darryl, But a tough day today. Best of luck tomorrow.

Cheers, thank you. Daryl Mitchell talking to Daniel Norcross. Stephen Finn is here. So collectively, that New Zealand bowling group have somehow got to get together, find some plans that work tomorrow. Otherwise, England, that they could get a decisive lead in this game.

Yeah, and, and actually, I thought for the last hour and 15 minutes, they actually bowled really well because they aligned and they found a method, and one that's worked actually against England throughout this series. Keeper up to the stumps, keep the ball within the width of the stumps, and challenge England to play across the line. It got them the wicket of Duckett off the inside edge, and then it built pressure through the back end of the day as well. And they'd have felt much more in control of the game. It's just a shame for them, the 2 hours that transpired before that meant that even though England were a long way behind in terms of runs, it feels like England are ahead of the game at the moment with the way it's, um, playing out in front of us.

Yeah, I mean, Darrell Mitchell there, you know, talking about Matt Henry and Jameson, they kind of disrupted a winning side. Well, that the situation has disrupted, you know, the injury to Henry and the feeling that Jameson can't play, and then Tickner out of the attack as well. It feels such a different New Zealand attack now. It is.

And, um, yeah, it's just such a shame, isn't it? Obviously people get injured and you have to protect bowlers, um, especially ones who've had bad injuries. But, um, it would have been a really, really exciting— this might transpire into a really exciting Test match.

But, um, yeah, yeah, let's not call it too early, but there's a feel, isn't there, that England are sort of suddenly got a real grip of the game?

Yes, and it can change very quickly, which we have to, which we have to remember. But I, I more think that, um, it just would have been a fascinating Test match with Henry and the narrative of the keeper being up to the stumps and the, the tenfer, um, and Jameson being a brilliant Test bowler bowler who averages around 20. You put those two guys into the mix today with 438 on the board, um, it might just look a bit different now.

It's easy to say it, isn't it? And final question to you, it's easy to say it when, you know, when you're in the field and it's 300 for no wicket, oh, you just got to keep going and find some energy and all that. But that was a remarkable turnaround, wasn't it?

It was, it was. And I think that's credit to the team for just hanging in there. Me and Cookie were on air earlier and we were talking about hanging in there and staying tough is a skill. In Test match cricket, to be able to run in with the same gusto and commit to your plans even though the scoreboard is completely against you is a really challenging thing to do. And England did that, and they were rewarded for that with those 2 wickets late in the day yesterday. And they carried that momentum into today, led by their captain Ben Stokes, who in his usual talismanic way grabbed the ball and said, I'm bowling an 8-over spell in this 35-degree heat. 'And I'm going to change the course of this game.' And he did. And everything at that stage, um, the momentum was completely rolled in England's favor. And that's the way the rest of the day has happened.

Indeed. Stephen, thank you very much. And his oarsman is alongside me, and we're going to— you're going to start with Stokes in your statistical roundup of the day.

Yes, well, that 8-over spell, 3 for 13, took him to 250 Test wickets, the 9th England cricketer to take 250 or more Test wickets. Uh, only he and South Africa's Jacques Kallis have, uh, 250 wickets and more than 6,000 Test runs. Um, and his recent, uh, form with the ball has been tremendous. His last 14 Tests, 47 wickets, average 24. And today's spell was the third time in those 14 Tests that he's had a, a 3-wicket spell or, or more. He had a 5-wicket spell in the the first Ashes Test in Perth, and he'd only had one 3-wicket spell in his previous 44 Tests. He'd not bowled in quite a few of them, or not bowled very much, been injured, taken 11 wickets in 22 matches before that recent run of 14 matches in which he's taken 47 wickets. So, uh, that's been a huge factor in England's cricket, uh, recently, uh, with the bat. Mixed fortunes for England's openers. Emilio Gay, uh, got a duck-feathering one down the leg side. The other 3 openers in the game all scored hundreds. That's only happened once in the history of Test cricket— one opener getting a duck and the other 3 getting centuries in the first innings of the Test. Um, but Ben Duckett, no 50s in his previous 14 innings. That's one of the longest 53 runs by an England opener. But that century today, his 7th Test hundred, the joint second fastest test hundred by an England opener. And of the 11 fastest hundreds by England openers, Ben Duckett has 7. So all of 7 of his test hundreds have been in the top 11 fastest by England openers. Jacob Bethell mentioned his first innings runs. He scored more first innings runs in this match than in his previous 8. He had 70 runs in his first 8 tests in first innings. Had a lot of success in second innings, but it was a curiosity. They didn't really have any, any sort of explanation. I think it was just a little quirk. But finds 74 not out today. Also, he only had 40 runs in his first 3 home Test matches, had the one against India at the Oval last year and the first 2 this summer. So, you know, a couple of welcome, welcome stats consigned to the bin for Bethell in that innings. And just to finish on that really curious New Zealand innings, 317 for the first wicket and then 121 between the, uh, for the remaining 9 partnership. So 72.4% of New Zealand's runs were scored by that, uh, by that opening stand. And in the entire history of Test cricket, out of all the times teams have scored 400 and been bowled out, that's, uh, 7th highest proportion scored by one partnership. Um, so yeah, very, very curious, uh, curious innings from New Zealand. And, uh, as you said, testament to, uh, the the, the endurance and skill of England's bowlers led by Stokes.

Well, thanks very much, Andy. In a moment, we'll hear from the Australian who's been charged with picking the England team.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Uh, I'm delighted to welcome to the box England's new national selector, appointed in May, and he's had a busy start to the job. Uh, Marcus North, former Australian player, of course, who played for numerous England county sides during his career. He was Durham's director of cricket for the last 8 years. Those years have flown, Marcus. Lovely to see you.

Thank you, Jonathan. Welcome along.

I mean, all— I mean, the typical response, not an Australian. Is that an Australian? Is that— no, surely not. What, what— I mean, what has the world come to?

Has there been a few of those?

Oh, of course it is. Oh, and down my pub we've got an Australian selector. What's going on? I'm half Geordie, man.

Well, you know, I've, I've had 12 years living here permanently in the Northeast. My family's Northeast, my kids are grown up. So yeah, look, I get— I'm originally from Australia, absolutely played for Australia, but you know, I've been incredibly invested in living in this country with my family, but also invested in the work I've been doing in English cricket, mainly with Durham in the last 8 years.

I did look, I said you're okay. I said, look, he's a decent bloke, so don't worry about it. So this is, it's an intriguing step though, isn't it? I mean, to, you know, if you're running a county which you have done for so long, but then to step up, if it is indeed stepping up, to what you're doing now. I mean, does it feel like a big step up, somebody be involved in international cricket again?

Yeah, yeah, I think the county— my 8 years at Durham have given me an incredible amount of experience across the professional game, which I have no doubt will hold me in good stead, and that those skills You know, hopefully a lot of them will be transferable in terms of coming into this role. It is a different role as compared to director of cricket, and you know that I'm very much aware that we're at the top of the, you know, international cricket. There's a lot of scrutiny. You know, England is one of the, you know, the most talked about, biggest countries in world cricket. So it's an absolute privilege and an honor to be in this role. And we, you know, a bit of tongue-in-cheek around Australian doing it.

Of course, we've had Rob Marsh running our academy. I think those days are long gone, Marcus. True, true.

But, you know, I do feel this is a step that I'm looking forward to. I'm only 3 and a half weeks into the post, but it's something that I, you know, always, whether it was Durham or anything I've done, I feel there's such a great opportunity with the England men's side. Of where we can get to in all formats, and to actually play an active part in that is something that really excites me, and I'm really looking forward to the challenges that lie ahead and the rewards that will come from that and the ups and downs.

Yes, so you just applied straight away? There was no second thoughts about it? You thought, yeah, I really fancy this?

Yeah, it's one of those ones where obviously, like all of us, you were working in it, follow the Ashes, very closely, you know, obviously hugely interested and passionate in cricket in general. And obviously Ashes didn't go down, you know, it wasn't as successful as we're all hoping in terms of an England perspective. And I guess I've been, like I said, 7 and a half years. This role came up and there was just something inside me that I was kind of interested in it. So I had a few more thoughts around it, had a chat to Rob and entered the process, and that process obviously went right to the end. And, you know, I was given a decision to make, and it just felt right. Everything just felt right. I wasn't looking for anything. I was very, very happy at Durham, but I guess that's a nice place to be if things kind of work out that way. So early days yet, but it certainly feels very comfortable in terms of the decision I've made, and I'm looking forward to those challenges ahead, like I said before.

Yeah, just touch on the last 10 days. I know, you know, you're the selector, so whatever's been going on there, but it's been— I mean, if you ever thought English cricket can have a few ups and downs, I guess you remind of it over the last 10 days.

Yeah, look, it's— there's no question it's been an eventful start. Um, I guess one thing I can say is that in my role as selector, um, obviously I'm not involved in those processes as senior management are, um, But in being involved over the last couple of weeks and, you know, just thinking back of having 5 changes to the 11—

that does involve you then, doesn't it?

It does. And then, you know, 4 changes back into this Test match. Now it's been incredibly calm, collaborative, thought out. So in terms of, you know, the discussions I'm having with captain, coach around selection, I don't feel like we've been distracted by some of the things that have been going on. And I think that reflects we've got good structure and good process and hopefully reflects a bit of calmness that I can bring to that conversation as well. So, you know, we deliberately picked a kind of a larger squad for the series at the start, wanting to give ourselves different skill sets to make different to give us options for each Test venue and what's in front of us in terms of the conditions we're presented. And one thing I like is that when we were forced to make some changes for the Oval, you know, we had those personnel in our squad already. Yes. And it was good to see that opportunity was then forwarded to them. Yes, we brought Henry Crocombe as a bit of a backup with Ollie Robinson having a knee injury and wasn't available for the second test. But again, when under pressure, we're kind of sticking to our strategy and our thoughts. And like I said, I felt there was a calmness around selection, which was very good.

Yeah, I mean, hopefully that what happened there was kind of a one-off, because it's hard to bring people in, well, 3 for a debut and then bin them the next game, isn't it? I mean, that's tough if you are that player. How did you deal with that?

Yeah, look, I think that, I mean, the history tells us that Having that amount of players make their debut is very unique. You know, going on my own lived experiences, making debuts is a big occasion. To have 3 do that at the same time was special for them and their families. Let's not forget we had Emilio Gay, who's playing his second game, and Fisher also coming in after a bit of a break from his debut, but also playing his second game. So to have 5 players against a a very seasoned, experienced New Zealand team have 2 games between 5 players is, you know, is a big ask. But again, goes back to the calmness of the environment. Obviously Joe stepped in as captain for that Test match, and as much as the result didn't go away, you know, I think those players hopefully enjoyed that special occasion in front of a full house and You know, that also gives us an opportunity that they may not have had to see them play a Test match. And that's— they'll be far better for that experience. And, you know, they're all going to be very important players for us moving forward.

Yeah, I saw Jordan Cox yesterday and said, hey, you know, a bit of a strange experience. He said, well, I've done it now, made my debut, those nerves have gone forever. So when I get my next chance, I'll feel better about it, which actually is a really good way of looking at it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, speaking to Jordan, he said he didn't have too many nerves. Yeah, yeah, he's got a lovely confidence about him. He looked very comfortable actually out there as well. I know he didn't get necessarily the outcome of making a big score, but he certainly didn't look out of place.

Right, so how's it working for you? I remember when Geoff Miller did this job, I think he might have been the first national selector a long, long time ago. He just did thousands of miles, but all over the motorways. Have you spoken to him? He'll give us interesting thoughts on being the national selector. But, you know, that was how it was then. Um, is that how it is for, for you? I don't, I don't think he had a network of scouts. I think it really was just Geoff in his car and his Filofax and his mobile phone, off and off you go, going all over the country. How's it going to work for you?

Oh, look, I, I think One is that there's a fantastic system in place and structure in place around, you know, the whole system of selecting and talent identification. You know, it's not, it's not for just one man or one person's responsibility to do that. Like you said, we've got a scouting network that's well established in the game. I'd like to think that my relationships with directors of cricket and coaches within the county game over the last 7 years gives me a fantastic insight and relationships to have those conversations. We've got a pathway of our Young Lions, our Lions cricket moving into the international men's formats. But in terms of, yes, my role is very much going to be getting around the counties and watching players of interest balancing that out with all the information that's brought in by all the scouts, the conversations that we constantly have, the County Inside Group which has been formed. I had a meeting with them for the first time before selecting our T20 international squad. So again, some fantastic insight and discussion and debate around players, getting their perception of what they see as a good player for an England team. So it kind of helps us remove the danger of us being in a bubble and having our own thoughts, getting other thoughts, which kind of helps shape our lens a little bit. So there's a big structure in place. And then you've got Ed Barney, our performance director. We've got David Quarter, head of talent ID. You know, we've got Troy Cooley now on board, who's a tremendous fast bowling coach and an unbelievable eye. All those guys have an unbelievable eye. Talent, you know, and that communication is constant, you know, daily, hourly messages going on, phone calls going on. So, you know, it's— that is probably the depth that, you know, coming from a DOC role into this role, I probably didn't really respect the level of information and people working together which informs the process of selection. So yeah, I mean, county cricket is absolutely the key heartbeat of our talent and where that comes from. So it's incredibly important, and for me to maintain a really good relation— relationship and connection with the game is going to be absolutely vital in my role.

Yeah, it's interesting scouts you have. I see Jeff Arnold's on there, terrific bowler. He went well into his 70s now, isn't it? And then you go down to a much younger spectrum as well. I mean, is that kind of intentional to have a really broad, broad reach, if you like, of experience in the game?

Yeah, absolutely. And it's no different to experience as a player or in life or in business that, you know, Jeff Arnold has seen so many bowlers and has such an eye for talent. But also having someone that comes in with a very modern, in terms of recent experience in the game, or as a current coach in the game might have a slightly different perspective. So it's there to balance and make sure that we're capturing all that talent and all those experiences of shaping what people see as what they think is a good player and has potential to have the attributes to be international players or future international players. So getting that kind of wide perspective is really important.

The big shout, I guess, Mark, is knowing when to pick somebody, isn't it? You know, when that individual is actually ready, and getting that call right is the big judgment call, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. And look, history says you don't always get it right, you know. You look at the start of this series, you know, there was that lot of discussion around the opener. Who's going to open the batting. Emilio Gay has performed fantastically well. He's got runs in county cricket. Did you push him?

I mean, you'd have obviously seen a lot of him.

Yeah, I mean, look, he's— he was obviously at Durham, and, you know, last year he made 400s in the First Division and started with 300s this year. So what I liked about leading into this Test series, that there was a real public debate around who is— who is going to take that opening position. Yeah, um, that creates noise. Creates pressure. So it's interesting to see how people actually start to handle that next level of not just making runs for your county and someone saying to you, 'Aggers, I think you've got potential to be an opening batter for England,' but actually— it's unlikely that shot. That's true, but you know where I'm going in terms of— and Emilio, I think, has expressed that quite openly. He's refreshingly open and honest in terms of the way he speaks, certainly into the media as well. And he was nearly kind of wanting to put pressure on himself in terms of the noise around him. So that again gives us a little bit of insight that this guy's showing us some attributes that when he goes into the international stage where there is a lot more scrutiny, TV, crowds, all that kind of pressure, that this guy's got the attributes to handle himself, basically. You know, this to me, this is— there's so many— there's two things. There's talent and there's mentality. And I think, you know, everyone that plays international cricket or even first-class cricket has got talent. And if you, if you can be highly talented and have a very high mentality, I think that is a great attribute to being very successful at international level. You can have slightly less talented players but high mentality, you're still going to have a very successful player, I think, in international cricket. If your mentality is a little bit too struggling and you've got high talent, that doesn't mean you're going to be good at international cricket because all the other things, all the distractions, all the pressures that go on top is what shapes, I think, people that have longevity and long-term success at international level.

And identifying that sort of person is the key then, isn't it? I mean, that's why you're depending on people who actually know them, I guess.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is where county cricket is absolutely critical because that's that's where they start and that's where they kind of— the breeding ground is. And that's why Lions cricket is incredibly important because you're putting them to different exposure, putting the weight of the Three Lions shirt on them, you're going to different parts of the world, so you're kind of seeing how they react in different conditions, how they react in slightly different environments. So again, you're just capturing their mentality, their personality, and hopefully building an understanding that either helps to validate that this guy is in the right direction, going the right direction to be an international player, or there's things we need to work on, or this— or we feel this individual might just not have what it is to be capable of dealing with all those pressures.

I've always felt you need a bit of luck as well, you know, in your first— I mean, I played at a time when it was a bit of a revolving door. It was actually really good for county cricket because you knew if you were playing on a damp day down at Cardiff on a Friday. Actually, you know, if you've got wickets, you've got some last week, you've got it again, then maybe next week you could play for England. And so it was a great incentive. But the problem was when you did get that chance to play for England, if you didn't do something immediately, there was someone else in that revolving door process who's going to take your place. And yeah, and that was, that was, that was, you know, very pressurized. And the number of players that, that England burnt through in that time was kind of unacceptable really. But it, but it, but it was very incentivizing for county cricket. Which is quite an interesting situation to, to be in, isn't it? I mean, county cricketers for me need to believe they can play for England. They need to be able to see that as a goal, but a realistic goal. And so you'll presumably be working— I mean, is that something you believe in as well? Absolutely.

And hopefully that has already been reflected in some of the selections that have been made in terms of the Test squad with Emilio Gay, who's performed very well at first-class level. We saw James Roo has had a fantastic start to the season. He earned his spot into the, into the, into this, into the Test squad. Cox, who's been around the England setup and probably would have made his debut several times without terrible luck, you know, he's been away and hadn't, hadn't played a match for 2 months in the IPL, returns makes a double hundred. It's about, again, trying to get that link and reward to performance. Ideally, we want to be picking players that when they do play— and this is where you get timing is important, and a bit of luck with timing— is you want people coming in and playing for England in form. And that's the— you know, there's times where that might not always happen, where someone might be in form, they get selected, and then they're sitting on the bench waiting for opportunity and And that's another reason why we've been very proactive in the recent weeks around if players are not playing, let's get them back playing county cricket. And I think every player that hasn't been in the XI has been back playing first-class cricket.

Cox being one of them. Exactly.

And we've got, um, there's a T20 series starting on Wednesday next week, and we've got players going back to play it for the, for their counties in the Blast. So it's important that we keep giving them the opportunity opportunity to perform. Yeah. And to keep ticking over. I think it's a tough place as a player to kind of get rewarded and selected and then be asked to perform, and you might not have batted or bowled, you know, for the best part of 3 or 4 weeks.

Well, when Jacob Bethell springs to mind, and that's my next pointed away, how do you stand with his situation at the moment where he, you know, he's in the IPL, played a couple of games, I think, didn't he? Whereas from an England perspective, you want him to be— there's a young lad with a lot of talent, think, oh, you know, from a supporter's perspective or whatever, you think, oh, surely he'd be better off playing for Warwickshire, getting some runs, getting a red ball game into it. How do you handle that?

Well, what, what, what people need to really understand is that when players go and get drafted or get in the IPL and there's that commitment to play in the IPL, there's a commitment— unless you're injured, there's a commitment to fulfill your contract. You have to be there. You have to be there. So, you know, for us, we don't have an option to pull a player back unless there's a sustained injury, you know. And we've seen the likes of Brook and others that if they do pull themselves out, I think it's a 3-year ban. Yeah, yeah, you know, so, you know, there's that. So there's an understanding that that's the case. So they're not always going to get a an ideal situation. In terms of Beth, obviously he was out there and he played the back end of the tournament and he came over and he's the incumbent in the side and he's playing Test cricket. You look back and go, you could argue, is that the best preparation or not? I've got to know Beth a little bit and I think there's one guy there that I can understand this full trust in terms of his professionalism. As a young man, he's he's well mature above his years.

Right. I mean, he's very young, isn't he?

He is. And, you know, he's out there with an eye on the IPL because that's what he's playing for at the moment, or at that point, but very much with the eye of that first Test match. And I saw a guy come over and I would not have been able to tell if he had not been playing red ball or not, you know. So I think that's credit to Beth, but also understanding it's— you're never going to get an ideal situation at times of the IPL. We're in the northern hemisphere, not many other countries have to deal with it.

Um, do you think that young players are as motivated to play Test cricket now, or does, does the IPL kind of give them another option, if you like? And I'm thinking particularly those who— not Bethel actually, because he's clearly a standout and he's got extraordinary talent— but those who might be slightly doubting whether they will— I go back to that incentivization again, you know, if they're not going to 'Play for England.' Actually, they're going to go off and go play IPL. Is there a sense of that as well in, in, in county cricket? That's called the next little level down. They've— they're the ones who've got a difficult decision to make.

Well, I can, I can answer that question in terms of my experiences at Durham, um, dealing with county players on a daily basis. Um, there's not a player at Durham that wouldn't want to be playing Test cricket for England. The difference between when I played and obviously when you played, we didn't have those options to go and play in franchise or IPL cricket. And also, let's not forget that players are getting opportunities to play in franchise. They're getting better. They're getting exposed to different types of levels of players. They're interacting and playing with world-class players, albeit in a slightly different format. But actually, they're improving. You know, they're developing as players and as individuals. I haven't seen any evidence that people are choosing to be less worried about Test cricket and more worried about IPL. I think there's a younger player now is open to both and will make a decision when that opportunity presents itself. But, you know, we've got players that are, you know, like a Beth, who's, you know, will play a lot of IPL, there's no doubt about it. But as so committed to Test cricket and international cricket. And we've seen that around the world with other countries that, you know, that relationship can coexist.

Yeah, well, that's reassuring. First division, second division, does that make a difference to you as far as selecting players is concerned?

No, I think it, you know, without question, I feel that first division, again going back, and I don't mean to keep harping back, but Darren, we got into the first division last year and we got relegated. And yeah, you know, the squad is a strong squad and is dominating second division. There's no doubt that the depth in those first division teams is— has greater depth and the standard is probably a little bit tougher in terms of, you know, that competitive nature and skill level. But it goes back down to, again, making runs, what's in front of you, first and second division, making runs, then how you're making those runs, who you're making them against. What kind of scenarios in the game, those players are normally going to be given some exposure in Lions cricket. So then you're starting to go back to my previous point of building up that knowledge bank of the individual, the skill set, the mentality, and that's where you kind of build that overall kind of resume of a player that then you would pick from. But no, I think we've picked, you know, players from Second and First Division apply in this Test series. I just—

last couple thoughts. I mean, there was a criticism of Brendan McCullum, for instance, about not, you know, not being interested in county cricket and being a disconnect. Is that something that you've experienced, and is that something that you in your role now are looking to try and put right?

I think there's two things. I made a point before around the structure that's in place. It's not for one man, right? So there's a process and structure that's in place that supports selection. Connection. Pretty much the first 24 hours that I got the role, I rang and spoke to Brendan, and he was in New Zealand. And he is— there's a perception that he's out of sight, out of mind, and doesn't care. That is— that's absolutely the opposite. And I was speaking to Stephen Finn before I came on before, and about my role and going into the environment. I've never been in the environment, So to me, my perception of the environment is very much listening to you on commentary or reading the articles online, etc. So to actually go in, it's, you know, I was shaped with what I thought it might be because that's what I've read. But my phone call with Brendan McCullum, his depth of knowledge of players around that were options for us, the young players that were involved in the Lions, players that were making scores in county cricket, he's aware of all this, you know. So I think it's, um, for me, my immediate reaction was actually maybe some of this criticism has been a bit unfair and unjust, really.

Welcome to English cricket.

Yeah, maybe so. But, um, but my, again, my experience has been Brendan, um, initially in the last 3 or 4 weeks, you know, in terms of this selection role, has been incredibly positive, collaborative, I know that there's been these words of challenging conversations, etc. You know, they're kind of buzzwords at the moment. It's very much a collaborative, good debate, good discussion. I feel part of my role and responsibility is to make sure that a lot of selections are aligned with strategy and not kind of going, having a little bit of flex, but making sure that each decision we have is, you know, has a reason behind it, enable us to make better decisions.

And reflects their strategy. Exactly. You see, you can't mold the strategy strategy of the England team as such. You are given a strategy and then you select players to suit that.

Yeah, to it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think through time and relationships and conversation, you know, hopefully my perspective on the game in general, from my experiences and I guess my knowledge, that hopefully Brendon might, you know, sooner rather than later— so actually Marcus gives us great insight as getting us looking at things slightly differently or looking at that player slightly differently, you know. So, you know, I came into this role to have a real positive influence. I see there's a great opportunity, like I said before, in with this men's side in all three formats to where we can get to. And to have that opportunity to influence that is the real kind of fire that made me really want to take this job on.

I can feel your enthusiasm, Marcus. Good luck with it. Thanks. I do hope it goes well. We look forward to seeing what teams you pick against Australia next summer. We'll judge what you're up to. It's lovely to see you. Thanks. Thank you very much, and good luck.

Marcus North, the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, that was Marcus North, England's national selector, speaking to Jonathan Agnew. You can watch highlights on Today at the Test on the iPlayer, and we'll be back for the third day from 10 AM Saturday morning on BBC Sounds., and we'll have another podcast after that.

My favorite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina '78, the ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Harry Hahn scoring goals from miles out. And always one of my favorite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the color. It is a meeting of the nations and of people who love football. The FIFA World Cup 2026. Listen.

On BBC Sounds.

He's widely recognized as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballon d'Or award 5 times. He's the all-time leading goalscorer in professional football, and according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right, Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good, Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.