Edwards: England's fitness issues have been put to bed

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Huge year for the England women's side, a home T20 World Cup only 2 and a half months away. A year on from the Ashes whitewash, we'll assess where everything is now, what shape the team are in ahead of the summer. Head coach Charlotte Edwards will join us shortly too. World Cup winner Alex Hartley, journalist Raph Nicholson, And captain of the Blaze and former England international Kirsty Gordon back at Scotland are with us. It is a big year, isn't it?

Well, it's a long introduction for Kirsty Gordon, that one, wasn't it?

Yeah, I know, yeah. Well, yours was very simple. To be honest, I'd take yours, Alex, really.

In all seriousness, a huge year for England Women. There's been a lot of scrutiny over them over the last year or so. Charlotte Edwards has almost had a year of grace, a year of almost bedding into this role that she's got as England head coach, almost been able to have the year and just get on with her job job. I think she's had a lot to change and a lot to do within the England environment, but a home World Cup, things don't get bigger.

That use of the phrase grace is quite interesting because it's almost as if you're saying, well, I've been raffling on this a moment, it's almost the same, right? Okay, now it gets serious.

You don't get— you get a year's grace, but you don't. But I think Lottie was like on a— in a win-win situation, you know. The girls had come off the back of an Ashes series, everybody was looking at her to make changes, and actually you don't make those changes overnight. They do take time. You know, a lot of the, the skills on how you play spin or bowling at the death or whatever it may be, the fitness stuff, you can't change that overnight. Those things take a long time to, to change. You know, they take camps, they take going to the subcontinent, they take, you know, countless fitness sessions. So that when I say year of grace, it's almost like actually you've got this year to almost embed everything you want to as a coach.

I wonder how much Raph, that change will be a theme between now and 10 o'clock?

Well, I'll be really interested to hear what Charlotte Edwards has to say about that, because obviously they've just had these intra-squad fixtures out in South Africa, England v England. So England have both won all those games and lost all those games, depending on your perspective, depending on whether your glass is half full or half empty. So it'll be interesting to hear whether she thinks that anyone has really kind of staked a claim for their place. If you actually look at the top 3 leading run scorers in those matches, they're all people who have perhaps kind of already in the squad, so Sophia Dunkley, Alice Capsey, and Danni Wyatt-Hodge, and so it may be that we're actually going to be looking at an 11 in that opening fixture of the World Cup against Sri Lanka on 12th of June that's actually quite similar to the one which surrendered the Ashes rather embarrassingly in January last year, but I don't know, maybe over to Charlotte Edwards to tell us a bit more about her plans.

Well, and we will bring her in Surely, can we also just frame this and we'll talk to Kirsty shortly. So she's got the big introduction, but we haven't got it yet. So—

Sit in silence, Kirsty.

I know. When you, we've kind of just focused on the last year, but let's look at the backdrop on what is now nearly a decade since the 50-over World Cup win. If you had thought, if I had said to you in 2017, this is where we're gonna be at going into 2026, with the domestic game and the international game as far as England's women are concerned, what would you, would you have taken it? Would you have been frustrated?

You would have been disappointed.

Yeah.

But it's hindsight, isn't it? It's gone. You win a World Cup in 2017, it's almost like if you could have your fairy tale and every, all the rose petals, you win another World Cup in 2020, you win, you know, the 2024 World Cup out in New Zealand, you, you do everything you can to win those World Cups, and ultimately the game's changed. You know, Australia have been dominant, you know, India have now gotten so much better than they have been. Yeah, so I think if you'd have said where England cricket is right this very second—

are you looking purely on results?

I'm looking on results.

I think when you then have medals, trophies, results—

yeah, I think if you then add in the domestic game and now the fact that everybody's professional, um, I think that took a little bit longer than, you know, I would have liked. But that's if I could have had everything my own way, where you just pump loads of money into the game. Being a female athlete, you know, I want millions into the game to allow these girls to come out of school straight away and be professional athletes, whereas now that can happen. It's taken time, and I understand that takes time. So yeah, I think when you— when I look at the game now and, you know, everyone being professional, we've got the, the T20 Blast, we've got the Charlotte Edwards Cup, we've got all those structures, we've got the Hundred. When it comes to the structural side of things, I'm pretty happy with, with where the game's at.

What would you say, Raf? Would you, would you say where we're at structurally is good, but we could have been there sooner?

Yeah, I think that's exactly what I would say. I think if you look back now, that amazing win in July 2017, it then took 3 years to introduce the first professional domestic contract. We're only now in a situation where we can actually call our domestic structure fully professional, and obviously we'll see what happens come June, July time, but is it actually a little bit soon to be relying on that very, very new new still professional county structure that we've only had in place for one season to be winning us a World Cup. And actually Alex is absolutely right, the results that we've seen since 2017 just haven't lived up to the excitement and the hype that tournament really generated. I've actually been revisiting some of these years recently, a little bit of a cheeky plug because my book, 'The Women in Whites', the history—

Oh, well done, you've done that within the first 10 minutes, excellent, well done.

I know, I know, I thought I'd better get it in early. That's a £50 fine by the way, Raf. It's coming out in, it's coming out in June and actually kind of revisiting that period and looking at some of the plans that the England and Wales Cricket Board had. There was actually a plan for a 50-over Kia Super League that about 4 or 5 days after the World Cup final in 2017 that England famously won at Lord's, then got cancelled. Basically, it got ditched. And as I say, then takes till 2020 for the domestic structure to even begin professionalising. It just feels like it's been a bit of a— it's been really slow for those changes to happen. And it's also been a bit kind of discombobulating as well, in the sense that there have just been all of these changes. We've gone from having a Kia Super League that then gets abolished, to then moving into brand new regional teams that people have spent kind of hours, years trying to get in place. And then finally, you get a little bit of stability. And then the ECB turn around and say, oh no, actually, we're going back to county cricket. Now, I'm not saying we haven't ended up in a good place and probably the right place. But I think perhaps if people had thought a little bit harder and maybe a little bit longer term about things in 2017, we could have got here a bit quicker.

Kirsty, let me bring you in. Do you think that, do you follow Alex's point of England could have won more since the World Cup in 2017? Should have won more?

Yeah, of course they could have, but that's sport, isn't it? You can't have it all your own way. And, you know, they've had a couple of difficult defeats along the way. Obviously, you look back to that, that World Cup in South Africa being outdone by rain and things. So there's been little bits along the way and that they could have done better, of course, in those pressure moments. But ultimately, I think now we're at a stage where we can look back and go, domestic structure's in the best place it can possibly be in, I think. And, you know, we just had the Hundred auction a few weeks ago, and now we're getting such great exposure, there's really no excuse for, for the English game to, to be, to be moving on. And we've seen how, how good the likes of the WPL has done for, for India, whereas before India were probably underperforming. They've now sort of hit that, hit that mark where, um, you know, then they're in the conversation. So it's certainly getting tougher, whereas before it probably was just England and Australia, whereas now, um, I do think it's, it's much harder to win these, these world events.

Let's bring Charlotte in there. Charlotte, I'm just waiting to talk to us. Your first anniversary in charge is Wednesday, so how have you found your first year, looking at going into your second year?

I've absolutely loved it. It's been a, yeah, it's been definitely a roller coaster of a year. Obviously taking over the role, you know, straight into a big series against West Indies and India, and then obviously a World Cup. Yeah, which was an amazing event, obviously, to be part of, but obviously we didn't quite get to where we wanted to in that one. But, and then obviously the last 6 months has been sort of preparing the players for the T20 World Cup, which has been really nice for me to actually spend some time with the players. And yeah, so I'm, yeah, it's been a real whirlwind, but really, really enjoyable. And I think we're in a really good place moving into the English summer.

Does this, How much of your first year was finding out and therefore to sort of follow Alex's point from the start, how much does this feel like, right, you've had a year, now here we go?

Yeah, I think, you know, initially it was, you know, there was a lot of things I was finding out for myself and firstly also getting to know a lot of the players. So yeah, I think that was an important, it's been an important 12 months, but, Like you say, the hard stuff starts now, and, you know, we know we're in a good position. We've got a home World Cup, which is really exciting for us as a group, and so, yeah, I'm massively looking forward to it, but, you know, I know, you know, we've got to start providing the results that, you know, this team, you know, should be, you know, obviously doing now.

Lottie, you say the hard stuff starts now. Does it feel a little bit unfair that the hard stuff starts now, you've got a home World Cup, or does that make it more exciting?

Well, I think, you know, when I took on the job, I knew what was in front of us as a group, you know, a 50-over World Cup and then a T20 World Cup at home. I think it's really exciting. I think we've seen on the back of what's happened in previous years with other sports, the excitement around this event and what you can create. I mean, you guys, girls, did it in 2017. You know, I was part of the 2009 World Cup. You know, you know you can really create something really special, and off the back of what the Red Roses and the Lionesses have done, I think It's just pure excitement going into this summer and what you can do, not just for the team, but for the whole game. And, you know, it's really exciting.

And Lottie, how much are you using your own memories of that amazing win at home in 2009 in the first ever Women's T20 World Cup? How much are you using that to kind of spur on this team that you're now coaching?

Oh, a lot's changed since I was playing in 2009, Raph. I mean, you think about the amount of ticket sales that's happened since then, where the game is, as Kirsty just mentioned, around the the auction that happened a few weeks ago, wow, the game's just changed enormously. So, you know, obviously I'll go back to those moments of playing that, you know, they're very similar, but the game's changed enormously in that time. So to think that, you know, we're gonna be playing most of our games in front of full houses at the big stadiums, you know, I could have only dreamt of that. And I think we could have only dreamt of that as a game a few years ago. Yeah, it's, yeah, I'll be pulling on a few things, but, you know, I'm just so proud to be part of this team and leading into what could be one of, you know, the biggest summers for our sport.

Just on the Hundred auction, what did you make of it? And is there any element of it that will provide a challenge for you with your squad?

Well, I watched every minute of it. It was fascinating. I was normally on the tables a few years ago, so it was nice to be off the table.

Yeah, well, would you, actually, just on that, how, I mean, how nerve— No, do you know what? Answer the first question, then I'll come back to that. Answer the first question.

What was the first question?

Do you know what? I can't remember now, 'cause all I can think of is, no, it was, what did you make, well, you've answered partly what you made of it, but what challenges that auction could bring for you as an England head coach, if any?

Yeah, I mean, I was thinking that as the auction was taking place, but what I was most proud of, you know, being around the players, 'cause they all turned up in South Africa, was how maturely they dealt with it all. And, you know, they were amongst each other, there was people earning lots of money, some not so much, but they just cracked on, they just went to training and they just got on with it. And just even talking to some of the players, Their focus was then on performing in our series out there. So yeah, I was really chuffed with how they all dealt with it. Who knows, there might be challenges down the line, but I think the players are used to it now. They're used to now going into auctions, they know what's at stake. And I think it's just, it's a great thing for the game, I really do. And I love watching it and obviously watching the players get what they deserve now, it's absolutely amazing.

What I was gonna ask you then as the follow-up was, how reckless you would've been with your paddle with someone else's money?

Yeah, that's a good question. I never got to hold the paddle, so I would've quite liked that. But look, I knew some players were gonna go at a lot of money. I think that was the word going into it. I think it played out exactly as I thought it might, maybe just, maybe 20,000 more than I thought, but I knew there was gonna be high amounts spent and You know, it's just fantastic for women's cricket that these amounts of money that are being paid to players now, which, yeah, it's only great for the game.

How did it make you feel, Lott, when you've coached some of these youngsters for such a long period of time and you know how good they are, you've seen them perform in The Hundred before? I want to talk about Tilly, actually, and I'm just going to name-drop her in particular, but you've seen her grow as a player and now you've brought her into the England environment. And then she's gone for £110,000 or whatever it was. How did that make you feel?

Really proud. I said to her, she owes me a Coke or Pepsi Max actually. But she's so mature, she's so level for an 18-year-old. It's just incredible how she deals with those types of things. And again, she was the first one to come up to me and say, look, the focus is now on playing out here. And she kind of just kind of forgot about it by the end of it. I won't let her forget about the Pepsi Max she owes me, but But I've been nothing but impressed by Tilly from a 16-year-old, now an 18-year-old, but she's mature beyond her years and I was really, really pleased for her.

Kirsty, I mean, it is a valid question, isn't it? How it will change dynamics. And it will in the men's Hundred as well. You know, some of those players, you've got big contracts being in amongst county cricket as well, where the money is nowhere near what it is for the Hundred. It will be a challenge for everybody.

Yeah, 100%. And I'll just start by saying that Lottie might have enjoyed watching it, but I certainly did not enjoy watching it. I'm not sure it was as good as somebody waiting to be up on the screen.

How was that feeling, Kirstie, knowing that you— there is a chance you might not get picked. There's also a chance that you might go for, you know, £90 grand.

Yeah, it was— honestly, it was awful. I've never experienced anything like that. My phone was off and I was fine, and then as soon as my name came up, I was like, all panicky, and then For me, it was, it was like silent for like a good like 30 seconds, and I was like, oh no, my worst nightmare's come true. But no, it was all right. But no, and to your question, it's true, it does pose a difficult dynamic in any environment really, not just in England ones and across the county game. And I think Ravi Bhopara was speaking during the Hundred auction about his experiences as a player and as a coach in these auctions, and It was a really poignant point around how, you know, players go for 10 times more than their counterparts, but they're never going to produce 10 times the output. And actually just having that perspective around, you know, the value you go for is not your worth as a player, whether that's loads of money or you've been unsold. Just finding that for the first time. And that's what we're going through as female cricketers, female athletes, is we're sort of finding that out for the first time. And the guys, they've been doing that for a number of years. So just takes a bit of getting used to, but I echo what Lottie says. Everybody in our environment has sort of just cracked on and dealt with it all really well.

That's what— that was my next question, Kirsty. You're obviously still playing, you're like knee-deep in international cricket and county cricket at the minute. Was there any anxiousness going to cricket training the next day after the auction? How are people gonna react? Is so-and-so gonna be salty about whatever it may have been?

Yeah, it was really difficult. We sort of discussed it as a leadership group and decided to make training on the actual day of the auction optional. So, um, obviously some people still went in.

I definitely wouldn't have gone.

Isn't the first rule of optional training that it really isn't optional? Isn't that, isn't that normally how it works? But go on.

No, um, I went into the gym actually like in the afternoon, so I'd already been picked up, so I had a bit of like relief. But then I went in and they were watching it on the TV when I got into the gym, and I was a bit 'Oh, this is a bit weird,' because there was girls in the gym that hadn't been picked up yet, they hadn't come up, and then I was— there was a couple of us sat there already sort of knowing our fate, and I was like, 'Oh, this is just a bit weird,' sort of just very unprecedented. But yeah, everybody handled it really well, and I think it's a strength of a good culture that, you know, we all got around each other that had done well and those that maybe not had the day they wanted. And, and yeah, similarly, like, it was kind of forgotten about by the end of the week.

Charlotte, let me bring it back to England and preparation. Have you benefited, or do you think you'll benefit from having a winter off? I know some of the players haven't because of the WPL and therefore, but in terms of you as a group, you haven't had cricket since last October.

Yeah, I personally think we will. I think you don't often get these sort of periods of time where you can actually work on your skills and have time away from that sort of, of performance pressure of playing international cricket. So, and certainly for the time that I've been in the role, it came at a perfect time. So I really think the kind of preparation we've got now, we're heading into sort of some ODIs against New Zealand and then some T20s against New Zealand and India. I think we've got more than enough cricket now leading into that World Cup. And we've got on the back of that, we've had a lot of time together, we've done a lot training and working on our skills and hopefully upskilling ourselves. So hopefully come May, we'll be in a really, really good place.

And presumably benefit from those players who are now established in the WPL.

Yeah, obviously a lot of our players are still playing a lot of cricket, and I think that competition has done so much for women's cricket globally, but more importantly for some of our players who get the opportunity to play out there and play under extreme pressure. And I think that only benefits those individuals to have that exposure. So, you know, to have 6 players out there this winter was really beneficial, and obviously then for us to spend a lot of time with our younger players is, I think, really going to help us as a group.

Can I ask, Lottie, to what extent have you, or will you, select your World Cup squad based on those intra-squad matches in South Africa, and to what extent will any of those games against New Zealand or India feed into the World Cup squad?

I think, you know, a lot of the, I guess, selection will be based on those games and the winter. It's not just those games because, you know, we've had a really big winter as a group, but I would imagine our team going into those New Zealand ODIs, sorry, T20s in India, that will be the World Cup squad. So we'll know what that squad is before those games, because I think those games are so important to us to be as a group On the back of obviously not having much international cricket.

I was just going to say, Alex mentioned Tilly Cortine-Coleman, who's obviously a left-arm spinner, going to have to work really hard to kind of get far enough up the pecking order to displace Sophia Ecclestone or Lindsay Smith. Has she done enough?

She's bowled very, very well, as she always does, you know, and she keeps performing, and And that's the headaches we want now as a selection panel going into, you know, big tournaments. So I think the depth of talent now within England is getting bigger, which is fantastic. And that's off the back of all the, you know, the money that's been spent in terms of our domestic structure. And I think, you know, Kirstie's played in it, you guys have been watching it lots. You know, there's a lot of money that's been spent on that area. And I think we're starting to see the benefits of all of that now. And I've obviously worked in it for a number of years, now, so it's great to see we're producing our players through that system.

I also think the exciting thing for me that's changed over the last, I want to say, 2 and a half years is actually I probably could have for the last 10 years given you a 15 for most England tours and gone, that'll be your 15, that'll be your squad for a World Cup, that'll be your squad for a tour against, in India, that'll be the one for the New Zealand. Now there's so many more options, and that's credit to where the game is and the domestic structure, you know, it's really important these girls are playing domestic cricket, they're performing on the stage in The Hundred and therefore they're getting called up to the camps and stuff that Lottie's had. And I think the game is in such a better place than it was 2 years ago because now you go, okay, you can probably, you can probably guess 9, 10 of those people that are going to be in a World Cup squad. But actually there could be people that you go, they actually deserve it because of what they've done.

So if you were looking at it then, I mean, could ask Charlotte this because she's going to pick it, but if you would go, there's the 15, 15, how many would you widen your pool out to?

I think there's— for me personally, there's definitely 2 or 3 that we've not seen in an England squad before that I'd love to see in that 15, just because they've performed. I think, look, it's always a risk bringing someone into a squad, but you've got to bring people into a squad at some stage, you know. If you throw them into the deep end, see if they can swim. I think, you know, somebody like Tilly, for example, I think she's a brilliant character a brilliant bowler. She was one of the bowlers in this tour to South Africa to stand up in every game that she played, you know. She looked like she played really well. And watching those games from afar, look, I'm not picking the XI and I'm not picking the XV, but somebody like her, she, for me, if she was called up, it wouldn't necessarily now be a surprise, whereas in the past it would have.

What would you say the pool is that you're selecting from, Charlotte?

I think, you know, on the back of Alex's point there, that's been, I think, I think that's the brilliant thing over the last 12 months is we're genuinely picking from, you know, 25, 30 players now, which I think, as Alex said, you know, 2, 3 years ago, it was, you know, 15 or 16 players and one would miss out because, you know, we didn't have the domestic structure in place that was generating these players. So it was a bit of a closed shop. I think, you know, what's going to drive the England team forward is the fact that there is massive competition for places. They're under pressure now in the 5-match series that we've just had. It's only gonna help them when we play international cricket and play in the big games that they've had to go through this. I actually think what we've just been through in South Africa is far harder than playing international cricket because when you're in the 15 for England, you know, you're in it and you feel a confidence, whereas when you're trying to get into the team, that's harder. It was brilliant to be over in South Africa. I was pretty much a little bit removed from the two teams, so I could see, you know, the games felt like international cricket and it was fantastic. And I asked at the start of that tournament, it had to be competitive. You had to play it like it was an international game. And there are lots of friendships within the team, but they have to be put aside.

Is it harder then because they are playing off against each other? Rather than, in inverted commas, an enemy?

Yeah, I think it's always harder when you're playing against people you know or people you're competing against, because you are always then gonna compare your results to that person. And, you know, we've picked the teams really carefully to make sure we had really good balance. And yeah, it was really good and really, you know, a good, you know, 5 games, but equally, you know, We went through quite a lot to get there because we didn't, at one point, 3 weeks ago, I didn't think we were going to have that at all, which would have been really disappointing. So, no, we gained a lot from it and, you know, I'm certainly further into who we think, you know, we're going to pick going into, you know, the World Cup.

I think from a player's point of view, when you're playing against your teammates, me and Kirstie were competing for the same spot. She's always supported me, I've always supported her, but never ever did I want her to do well because I'd never get back in the team. You know, every time she'd take 5th for England or England Academy. I thought, oh well, that's me not playing again. Or, and ultimately that's what happened. She ended up getting a contract and I didn't. But you know, these are the—

you're over it then, Al.

You know what, thank you. I didn't have to do it for longer. Um, but you know, you like, you have friendships and you respect that, that person, but ultimately if they keep performing and you're not, they are taking your place in that starting 11 whether you like it or not.

But also, would you not say as well, Kirsty, you sort of look at how this England team has evolved over maybe even the last, well, nearly 20 years, if we go back to 2009, the player, the rejuvenation of a team tends to have happened in clumps rather than, you know, an individual comes in here or an individual comes in here. Players seem to have come through in groups and therefore that actually then makes the rejuvenation of that team a little bit harder.

Yeah, it's an interesting point. I do feel like that happens with a lot of sports teams though. You see them go through sort of those big highs and sort of create a team over a number of years, and then that team sort of disbands, if you like, and they sort of have to start again. And maybe like England's going through a little bit of that now, or have done in the last 12 months, where they've sort of had to blood a few new people, and that's a transition period, I guess. But there've been some mainstays of that team for, for a number of years really. You look at Heather Knight, Amy Jones, Dani White-Hodge, and so they're still— even if around them they're still in the team, there, there's a real sort of pillar of, of that core group, um, which I think is also fundamental. You know, you can't have a team of, um, 11 youngsters come in and expect them to go and perform under pressure, uh, straight away. So I think actually now where they've got to is probably quite healthy position of 3 or 4, 5 strong key players and some youngsters around them.

Raf?

Well, I was actually thinking I wanted to ask Kirsty about a previous point about teammates playing against each other. I mean, you're going to be in potentially quite a unique situation this summer. I know that Scotland haven't announced their World Cup squad yet, but let's assume that you are in that Scotland World Cup squad and you're taken to the field World against England. What's that going to be like?

Um, yeah, I mean, I've tried not to get into it too much in my own head yet until sort of it comes around, but it, it'll hopefully be quite, um, a special moment, I guess, a full sort of, uh, 360, um, in my own career. But, um, yeah, it, it'd be hugely exciting for us at Cricket Scotland, um, such a big game on a big stage, um, essentially for, for us as well, a home World So yeah, it's hopefully we can maybe cause an upset, but certainly put on a good show.

I'll just say that it looked like a wry smile on Charlotte's face. Is that the best way to describe that facial expression?

I think it's fantastic. You know, we've got Ireland and Scotland within our group, and you know, they're gonna be massive games for both teams. And you know, we're playing Scotland at Headingley. So yeah, probably have quite a lot of Scottish supporters down there, I'm sure. Well, it's as close to Scotland as you'll get, so. Yeah.

Let me go back to that point though, about how you, how is a head coach, I'm not saying you're going to do it for this tournament, but how you slowly rejuvenate a side, bearing in mind the bulk of your top order have been together for 7, 8 years.

Yeah, I think, you know, you're absolutely right. There is a sort of bulk of that sort of age group that have been around and played a lot of cricket together. I think the skill now is to integrate the younger players in, which we're starting to do. You know, even through the World Cup, you know, I thought Alice Capsie had a brilliant World Cup in terms of what she contributed as a young player. And we've got to remember, she's very young, and, you know, these players, you think they've been around for a long time, but still very young in terms of cricketing age. So yeah, so no, I think, you know, that's the job we've got to do over the next 12-18 months. You know, we've got a new 4-year cycle going into an ODI World Cup, But I think we've got to worry about that after the T20 World Cup. I think, you know, our real focus is on obviously doing well in this comp with the players we've got, and we've got some— I think we've got a really nice blend of youth and experience, and hopefully we can use that to our benefit.

How does that look when it comes to leaders a lot? Because that's been a bit of a— I don't want to say a problem because it's not a problem.

It's been a discussion.

It's been a discussion, yeah, thanks, Chappers.

That's right.

And then we've seen out in South Africa that obviously Charlie Dean's Danny Gibson, was that a conscious effort to create more leaders?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's one of the things I kind of recognized and observed that we needed to create more leadership opportunities for young players. And this winter's been such a great chance to do that in a lot of our kind of warm-up games in Stellenbosch. We played a number of fixtures out there, giving different players the opportunity to lead, 'cause you get to, you know, we got to a stage got to a point in the summer last year where Sophia Dunkley was vice-captain, but she'd never really captained in a game. So she has— she's now got a number of games under her belt this winter through being captain, and they're all just then just gaining more sort of confidence in that role. And it's hard to do it through county cricket, if I'm honest, with the players in and out. So we've had to sort of, I guess, create our own opportunities for these players. And I think this winter And this has been a great chance to do that.

Just explain why leadership's hard to develop in county cricket then, Charlotte. I personally think captaincy and leadership in cricket, full stop, is the hardest thing to develop. Yeah. It's like no other sport, given what you have to take on.

Well, one, the players don't play a full season. And Kirsty knows through captaining The Blaze, you need a captain who's gonna be around for most of the season. Drive standards, etc. So it's very hard for England players to captain their counties because of their in and out, which is fair enough, and I totally respect that. So that's probably a challenge. The players are playing more now, so that's been a real positive, I think, in the last 12 months. So there may be opportunities that we can ask counties for that sort of, you know, if there is an opportunity to captain, that they can do that. But You know, at the moment we're having to use probably our A programmes and our probably winter camps to probably use that as an area to develop.

Are we going to see the England girls play more county cricket this season?

You absolutely are. They'll be available for a lot of the April games. We have got a few T20 camps that we're going to have to prioritise, but you know how passionate I'm about playing county cricket and the players playing, and the great thing is now Players are coming to me saying, I want to play, and I'm really loving— they've found a love and want to play county cricket and see the benefits in that, and hopefully the game does as well. Because I think some of the games early last season, the first 7 games, were some of the best— sorry, 50-over cricket I've watched in county cricket. And Kirsty was playing, she can probably echo that, but I thought it was really competitive and thought some outstanding games of cricket.

Fighting very hard not to make a sarcastic comment about whether you could pass that message on to the men's side of things, and I won't say. Go on, Kirsty. It won't land you in trouble, Charlotte. Go on, Kirsty, on that, on the importance of playing it.

Yeah, 100%. I totally agree, and I think that was one of the most pleasing things when Lottie came into the job last year. It was one of the first things that, you know, she said to the media around players playing county cricket. I'd love to see even more, to be honest. I know it's easy to say that when we've got Nat Surabrant on the Blazes books and we haven't seen her too much, but no, absolutely. I think it's only good, it's only positive for the county game and the standards, you know, when we have the England players back playing and it drives the whole standard of the county game up and competition for places, professional behaviors, everything. So if you have a young player, a young county player performing around England players, I think that just stands out even more that they, you know, they should be getting earmarked and how well, you know, those performances stand up. So it's hugely vital, I think, for the game for them to be playing as much as they can around their England commitments.

And also then on the flip side, counties will want their players to do well to go and play for England knowing that they're going to come back. What happened for a long time was, you know, Kirstie gets called up for England and she doesn't play for Nottingham for such a long period of time, they go, well, what was the point of us developing her? Then? Because we've just lost her. Well, actually, now you develop her, she goes and plays for her country, and she comes back and plays a majority of the season as well. So it works for both parties.

It's really important to keep that relationship as well, because you've mentioned the men's game, and you're exactly right. You know, as a young player in the men's game, you're probably thinking, what's, you know, what am I aspiring for? Are my performances in county cricket being noticed? And versus hopefully that's not the case on the women's side, that if you're performing week in, week out consistently in the domestic game, you're going to be rewarded with an England A or an England Development opportunities and so on and so forth.

Right, Rach?

I mean, I think it's really important in the context of this summer as well and a home World Cup, because one of the things that the ECB are really keen to do is kind of to create some superstars in this tournament that, you know, they're trying to find women's cricket I think it's Ellie Kildun and launch her into cricket.

They've got her, Lauren Bell, who's got millions of followers.

She has, but they are mostly Indians at the moment. So it would be lovely if she could have a few more followers who are English who are actually going to turn out and watch her maybe going and playing for Hampshire. And I think that was the kind of point that I was trying to make really. It would be so nice if we see these superstars playing in the World Cup, but then girls are inspired and can then go and watch them play domestic cricket. And I don't just mean the Hundred, I mean actually for their counties. So I think that that's really important. And if you're thinking about kind of potential legacies of the 2026 World Cup, then that's a really important one.

How hard is it for you as a head coach, Charlotte, to balance legacy and faces of sport with just winning?

It's really hard. You know, as I've just said there, I'm a very passionate person. About the players playing county cricket or cricket, but ultimately then at certain points, I've then got to look after what's the best thing for the England Women's Cricket Team. And, you know, someone like Lauren Bell is a great example. You know, we've got a big summer ahead of us. You know, we want her to play some county cricket, but she can't play too much because we've got to save her energy so that she's ready to, you know, I guess, peak at the right time in June, July. Yeah, I mean, it's very difficult getting that balance right. I think we've got a good balance at the moment, but it's always something we're striving to do.

It's a very competitive summer, isn't it, to be having this home World Cup? And originally, we were doing something with the ECB a year ago, and I said, oh my God, you're launching it on the same day as as the Men's Football World Cup, and not many things can compete with a Men's Football World Cup. But actually, it should work. It should actually, if you take a step back, it should work quite well, given a lot of those games are gonna be late at night and into the morning. So you can actually sell it as here's your day of sport. It does, I mean, it actually does work.

I'd love to see that. I'd love to see the momentum, momentum. Oh, have you heard that? Get behind, you know, the Football World Cup, and then people people on the back of that go, actually, there's more cricket on, there's more sport on, you know, let's go and watch the Girls World Cup because imagine if we do the double, it'd be amazing, wouldn't it?

Yeah, it does work, Charlotte, I think.

Yeah, I mean, I've not really been following what else is going on at the moment. I'm a bit focused on, and to be fair, like hearing, you know, the ticket sales for this comp so far, we're in a really good place. So I'm hoping lots of people will come and support. I'm told also that people get more interested in the women's events, the closer to the time as well. So I'm really confident, I know the World Cup team are really confident that we're gonna have a, well, the best represented sort of World Cup in terms of fans we've seen. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

The other thing, Raph, which we haven't massively mentioned, which we should really, is that there's a Lord's Test against India as well.

Well, I forgot about that.

Well, it's a good job I'm here then, isn't it?

Well, yeah, and I think that pertains to Lottie's point actually about the workload of the players. I mean, that, yeah, there's a Lord's Test, England v India, I think it's a week after the World Cup final. That is going to be 4 days of tough cricket. And, you know, is Lauren Bell going to be in any fit state to open the bowling for England at Lord's? I mean, I'm I'm sure she would absolutely love to do that. This is, I was going to say, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I mean, it's the first ever Women's Test at Lord's in, you know, 100 years, almost 100 years of international women's cricket, which is ridiculous, by the way. But we don't know—

I think Raphy should be lucky we can get in the long room.

Yeah, but I mean, we don't know when there's going to be another Women's Test at Lord's. So I would imagine that all of those England players are absolutely chomping at the bit to be playing in that Test match, but they will have just played a World Cup, hopefully a World Cup final, I'm touching wood.

How do you manage it, Charlotte, then? 'Cause that is, I mean, that Lord's Test and against India, the crowds will be huge for that.

Yeah, I mean, it's all part of the planning. I mean, this is what, you know, we've been doing for the last 6 months is we're building up to the World Cup and then knowing that the girls are gonna play a Test match 5 days later. And as you said, it's going to be one of the biggest Test matches we've ever played in England and the first ever at Lord's. So everyone wants to be part of that. So yeah, there's a lot to juggle. I am firmly focused on the T20 at the moment, but that is in the background and we're having to prepare players and overs for that game, and it'll be quite an occasion.

I mean, Kirsty, even though Alex forgot about it, players will be chomping at the bit for that, won't they?

Yeah, 100%. I didn't realise it was so close to the end of the World Cup, actually. So it could be a bit messy if England go on and win and want to have a few celebrations.

I actually just text Kirsty, said the girls, if they win the World Cup, I'll turn up in their coloured kit.

Well, you don't allow the celebrations, do you, Charlotte? You've got to wait till it's all done and dusted.

Leicester. Oh dear.

Do you set your aims for by the end of this summer, or do you, how far ahead, I know you're only playing for the T20 World Cup, but how much are you bigger picture?

I think, look, you've gotta be bigger picture, I think, in the role I'm in, and when I took the role on, but equally, we've got a massive event that we're really prepared for and ready to go for, so. Yeah, I mean, I've got half an eye on the future, half an eye on 6 months' time, and I think that's how you've got to be. But yeah, I think come, you know, come May, which is, you know, 6 weeks away now, we'll start our first internationals, which it feels, yeah, you know, from when we finished the World Cup in November, it's come around very, very quick. So Yeah, we're looking forward to playing some international cricket again.

It's mad how quick it comes around when you go, oh, the girls haven't got cricket all winter, and you go, actually, their first game, it's gonna feel like it's in 2 minutes.

But, well, yes, exactly. Well, time feels like it's flying, you know, very, very— everything feels like it was only 2 minutes.

Someone told me COVID was 6 years ago. I was like, nah, that was 4 minutes ago.

Right, okay, now. Anna, but we don't need to, I mean, the other thing that what you're seeing, Kirsty, as well, we talk about Scotland and Ireland coming into this, but across the board, the strength in depth rises each international tournament.

Yeah, absolutely, I think it's, you know, the global game is in a good place, it's getting better. I think there's still a gulf between maybe the top 4, so South Africa, India, England, Australia, and then there's another sort of and then there's the associate teams. But I really think especially that gap between associate teams and the rest is massively, you know, getting smaller, reducing. And I think the more cricket we can play against those nations to prove that, you know, we can compete, it is really important. But I think a few years ago you would have said it's just England and Australia, and now it's, you know, South Africa and India extremely strong as well. So there's no doubt that the global game is in a good place, but it probably goes along with, you know, Lottie's decisions and then England's decisions to have that winter with more inter-squad games, because actually that, seeing 30 players across 5 games, is probably still more beneficial than a 3-match series against the likes of Sri Lanka, who still are arguably not providing England and Australia with enough challenge.

But how much, Raf, would how much would you judge that, maybe not Sri Lanka then, but that group of countries between the Associates and between the Big Four, how much would you judge that they are closing the gap on the Big Four?

Well, I think they are. I mean, it's not so long ago that England looked like they were gonna lose to Pakistan in the 50-over World Cup, right? It was rain that saved England. I'm sure Lottie remembers that day quite well. And Bangladesh gave England a scare as well. So I think it's quite dangerous actually. I mean, 'cause we could look at the groups for this summer and go, you know, England are in in an easy, in inverted commas, group. We've got New Zealand, Sri Lanka, West Indies, Ireland, and Scotland in our group, and somehow on the other side of the draw, Australia, India, and South Africa are all on the other side with Bangladesh, Pakistan, and the Netherlands. But I don't think that's— I think that can be quite a dangerous way of thinking. And so I do think that we did see some really positive signs in the 50-over World Cup.

I also look at that group that England are in, and England are, for me, the best team in that group. But what a great opportunity for a team like Scotland that have a lot of girls that play in domestic setup could quite easily qualify in that group because New Zealand, we've seen them play a number of times. Yes, they won that T20 World Cup, but they can be an amazing team or they can be awful. Same with the West Indies. So I think it's a huge opportunity for a team like Scotland. Personally, Ireland, I never really know what team's going to show up, but Scotland have got some great players, especially now they've got Kirsty back.

She should try for a coaching role, Al.

Yeah, I missed my Pakistan one this year.

Just a final thing with you, Charlotte, and thanks for your time this evening. When you see the younger players coming into your squad now, how different are they to, say, when you were starting out?

It's so much different. They're so ready to be part of these environments now, but that's on the back of, you know, probably 3 or 4 years of professional domestic cricket. And I think I've just been so impressed by how they've held themselves within the group, group, but they've been exposed to so much more cricket and so many more environments. If you take Davina Perrin, for example, the experiences she's had in the last 12 months at her age and now coming into our team, it's not daunting at all for them. They just sort of settle in and feel like they're part of it. So yeah, I've been really pleased, and that's a lot— that's down to our England Performance Programme as well, who are really, I guess, developing these players and preparing these players for more higher honours, and yeah, it's, um, yeah, the future looks pretty bright for us.

I think for me it's these kids that are coming through now, they're proper athletes, you know, they, they, and it's like even, you know, the game's changed from, and I'm so thankful where the game is now, but from when Lottie was first involved to when I was first involved to 2 years ago, but these kids coming through now, they're, they're so strong, they're so fit, they're so agile in the field, um, and it's something that looks more natural because they've done it from such a younger age because it's been a, I guess, something that you start at school, then it's a real career prospect for some of these young kids now.

Well, you can never underestimate, Kirsty, can you, the benefit of starting the sport at, I don't know, 5, 6, 7, or 8, because you have the opportunities to start the sport at 5, 6, 7, or 8. It can completely change your, well, understandably, completely change your development and therefore your progression.

Yeah, undoubtedly. And you know, the programs that are in place now for, for kids, um, starting out, boys and girls at a young age. But the biggest difference is probably now the academy system. So girls that are pretty good age 10, 11, 12, they're, they're straight into EPPs and academies. They're getting high quality coaching, high quality S&C, so that exactly like, um, Al said, by the time they get into county programs and domestic first teams, they're, they're really highly skilled. You know, we've got some 15, 14, 15-year-olds on the academies that you're looking at them like, wow, if I had that much, half of that talent at 14, that would be amazing. Um, and that's sort of where the men's game has been, and it's the same with football where it was a number of years ago. But now we're getting them into the academies, and they're, they're so much more advanced, I guess, by the time and had that level of training and load building and etc., etc., by the time they get to this level.

I think to put it into perspective, my first day on an England camp, I went to the gym. It'd been like the first time I ever went to a gym. I got sent home. I was that stiff the day after, I couldn't put my shoes and socks on because I was just a spin bowler. I wasn't an athlete, I wasn't a fielder. I'd never been to the gym, I'd never run, and I actually got sent home from Loughborough because I was stiff. I mean, these girls that are now going to Stellenbosch on these camps, they're athletes. They don't get stiff from playing cricket.

Do you therefore think that the fitness thing has been put to bed, Charlotte?

Oh, 100%. I don't know if anyone watched the fielding from the recent series, but it's some of the best fielding I've seen, certainly from our group, the improvements we've made. But that comes hand in hand, physical and fitness comes hand in hand. And yeah, we're in a really good place. The results are all so high, Yeah, I couldn't be more chuffed really in that space that we've made real, real progress.

Did you have to have some tough conversations about that when you first got the job?

I wouldn't say they're tough conversations, it's just an expectation, Alex, and I think once you set out the expectation, the players know what they need to do, and we've added in sort of benchmarks over the winter, we've been, you know, kept the players fully in the loop with what we're doing. It's not a yes or no on selection, it's more around we've got to keep raising the standard, and that's as an individual and as a team, and the players have fully bought into that, which, yeah, that was, you know, I guess what I set out to, to do. And, yeah, really pleased with the buy-in from everyone.

I don't know what you think, but I don't think fitness testing should be as daunting as everybody makes it out to be. You know, it should be a thing that just is part and parcel of being an athlete, but I don't know whether it's— we've all built it up in our heads over the last however many years that 'Oh my God, it's fitness testing week.' Has that mindset almost changed from when I was involved?

I think it has, and I think we call it profiling. So, and it's all, and it's not just about the running, it's about all your other, other— we've got the Big Five that we test on, and basically I think that's really helped the players understand that it's not just all on the running, it's all about your other elements to your fitness as well. And I think doing it more often, it just becomes the norm. And so we do it 3 times a year, it becomes the norm, and actually you start seeing improvements. You actually want to do it again because you've worked really hard. So I think it has this just knock-on effect, which it certainly has with our group, and the players are starting to see the rewards, you know, sort of off and on the pitch.

What are the big— sorry, what are the big 5.

It's not the safari.

Oh, it's not a safari. So they do a run to— they do the, um, what else do they do? The, the 2K or the, the yo-yo, um, max velocity, and they do the CMJ jump. So it's all about power output as well.

So it's, it's across the physical spectrum then, isn't it?

Our S&C coach will be very happy I've just explained this, um, live on BBC. But it's great to get context to what they do, and it's not just all about whether you can run around a track, it's all the other elements to it that we've tried to make just as important.

Charlotte, thank you very much. We wish you well for the summer ahead. I'm sure we'll talk again very soon. Raph, when we get to the end of this summer, what will you have wanted to have seen? And I'm not just, you can say win the World Cup, obviously, I'm taking that as a sort of given. Again, I go back to the sort of bigger picture, bearing in mind we started with the base of the bigger picture.

Well, I was talking about legacies a little bit earlier, and I think that, you know, whether or not England managed to win, because that's that's not necessarily kind of within anyone's grasp. It's professional sport and it's just going to be completely dictated by who performs best on the day ultimately. But I think that there are bigger things to be concerned with. And I know that the ECB have been kind of talking about this World Cup as a movement, not a moment, which I think is a really great encapsulation of the fact that we don't want it to just be about what happens on the pitch in June and July. We actually want to see be more girls taking up cricket would be wonderful. Girls able to go, I mean, and boys of course, able to follow the people who they've seen, the women who they've seen play in this World Cup, to then go on and see them playing in domestic cricket. We're still very new in our current domestic setup. It would be wonderful to think that actually a legacy of this World Cup could be proper fan bases for the women's county teams.

Kirsty?

Yeah, I think Rash probably hit the nail on the head there. It's about the growth of the game ultimately, and I think England cricket in England has that platform from this World Cup to do that. And, you know, I've spoke a couple of times to Beth Bartwild, who's sort of running the World Cup operations, I guess, at the ECB, about how do we transfer this? Because for someone like me who's not playing for England, um, at the World Cup but is massively involved in domestic cricket, how do we get these crowds that we're gonna have into domestic cricket, in through the doors to watch the T20 Blast, to watch the Metro Bank, and then ultimately, um, to hopefully pick up a bat and a ball as well? I think that's the real, um, juicy stuff, I suppose, that the ECB have got to work out how do that?

For me, I want to see better attitudes from the England team. I think when push comes to shove, they're under pressure, under the pump, which they will be. I want to see them lift their heads high, pump their chest out, and take the game on.

Alex, thank you. Raph, Kirsty as well, thank you very much for being with us this Friday. By the way, it's the 3rd of April, so that obviously means the Men's County Championship is back. Every ball of every match will be available via the BBC Sport website.

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