England drop Carse after nightclub incident & Pakistan's struggles

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This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Michael Vaughan, Phil Tufnell, and Stephen Finn are with us.

We'll talk about how awful Pakistan looked in that Test at Headingley in a little while with Joe Root back as permanent Test captain, but we have to, we have to start with everything that's gone on with, with Brydon Kars. He's been removed from England's squad for the 2nd Test against Pakistan after that photo emerged of him being handcuffed by police outside a club in Derby on Saturday night. understood he wasn't arrested. The ECR— the ECB has referred this— I didn't know this— ECB has referred this incident to our old friend Stephen Shemilt, the cricket regulator.

I knew that'd cheer you up.

Yeah, that's cheered me up, that's cheered me up no end. We'll get on to that in a little while. Just tell us where we're at with this then.

Yeah, so Brydon Karras was out on Saturday night celebrating Durham's win over Derbyshire. It was a night out in Derby. Sunday afternoon, pictures appear on social media of Kars in handcuffs and surrounded by police officers. The ECB instantly say that they will investigate. And my understanding at that time is that the ECB wanted to give themselves a bit of breathing space. And then a statement lands this afternoon saying that the ECB have referred the incident to the cricket regulator. And for that reason, because Kars is under investigation, he's been removed from the England squad for the 2nd Test against Pakistan. On Thursday. Then after that statement from the ECB, we get one from Derbyshire Police that said a man in his 30s was arrested on suspicion of being drunk and disorderly in Derby city centre on Saturday night. However, the man was de-arrested shortly afterwards, having agreed to leave the area. And yes, that is the first time I have ever heard of anyone being de-arrested.

De-arrested?

De-arrested. That's the first time I'd heard of that too.

Right.

And obviously, I think most people listening will know everything that has gone on, but put this into context of everything our good friend the cricket regulator has had to deal with over the last few months.

Yeah, so this goes all the way back to Halloween. How apt that is really, that Harry Brook was struck by a nightclub bouncer in Wellington. We know that that incident didn't become public knowledge until after the Ashes series when it also emerged that Jacob Bethell and Josh Tonge were present on that night in Wellington. There was the Ben Duckett social media video when he appeared to be drunk in Noosa, that infamous mid-Ashes holiday. This summer, Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson involved in their own nightclub incident that resulted in both men missing the 2nd Test against New Zealand. And now Carss alongside his Durham teammate and England teammate Matthew Potts, and of course the former England captain Stokes. If you've counted, that's 8 players that have been involved or present for late-night misdemeanours from this England team since last October. All 8 have central contracts. So to put it another way, more than a quarter of England men that were handed central contracts in the autumn of last year have been involved in or have been present in these sorts of incidents.

I mean, there are so many different directions we can go in. There are so many questions that I could ask here. Start with— start, Michael, though, with what you thought when you saw the story first of all.

Well, first and foremost, the regulator needs to get a few bonuses. He's working overtime and has done for a number of months now. I couldn't quite believe it. I mean, 2026, what have England played? 5 Test matches? They've won 2. On the 2 occasions that they've won, there's been an incident after the victory. All right, Braden Karsch didn't play and it was away from the England cricket team, but on the back of the new England captain pretty much saying before the Test match at Headingley, he wanted a mature group of players that would make mature decisions. The curfew was put to one side, the curfew that was brought in. Joe Root and Steven Fleming said, no, we're not having a curfew, we're going to trust the players, we want them to behave like adults. And just a few days after that statement from Joe Root, one of his England players, again, not with the England team at the time it happened, but he's an England player, goes out till 3 o'clock in the morning and, look, de-arrested, arrested. Browning-Castles was in handcuffs outside a nightclub in Derby. It's an awful look for the England cricket team once again.

You, you, um, you think even though he wasn't sort of on England duty, that it is still an England matter?

Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, he's an England cricketer, he's in the England squad. He got released to play in that game at Derby because he didn't make the team at Headingley. He, he was in the squad, uh, for this week's, um, Test match at Lord's. So he's an England cricketer and you're a central contracted player. Whenever you're representing your county, uh, you're not just representing your county, you, you're still representing your county as an England cricketer. Um, you know, I, I actually look at, you know, Braden Carr, for me, I like the way he plays his cricket. The one problem that I have, and the England and Wales Cricket Board have to look themselves in the mirror here, and the players, because throughout the winter in Australia we were all out there. Stefan was there, Steven was there, Tuffers was there, and England were getting beaten. But every time I heard that there was a night out or there was a problem with what they've done off the field, Brydon Carr's name was always mentioned. You know, Perth, when they got beat in 2 days, you know, who went into the casino, a load of money fell out of his pocket? Brydon Carr. Adelaide, they went and lost the Ashes. Who was seen out at night, late at night? Brydon Carr. So I think the ECB and the England team and his teammates have to look themselves in the mirror and they have to say to themselves, have we advised Brydon Carr well? Yes, he's made the mistake. He's an adult and he's got to make his own decisions. But as teammates, I think this is where Joe Root's coming from when he says he wants maturity. Maturity is the team around you accepting that you've got to manage some of those things. Rob Kee can't be there 24/7 with the players. Richard Gould, the CEO, can't be there 24/7. The captain can't be there, but your teammates can. And those teammates at Durham would have known that Brydon Kars has got within his character, he's got it in him to be a little bit loose at night. So that's when you need your teammates to go, you know what, Brydon, We've had a good drink, we've won, but let's go home. Let's go home now. Why is he still out there at 3 AM? That's what's confusing me and that's what disappoints me with his teammates around him.

Okay, we'll bring Tuffers and Stephen in after we hear from Joe Root, who before the first Test spoke to Stefan about the off-field issues.

I think you always want to, um, you always want to represent your country in the best possible light, and, and we might have fallen short of that on a few occasions in the recent past. But the only thing that we can do to rectify that is be really good role models and good human beings and put in some really strong performances out on the field. And that does take time, and that first opportunity to do that is this week. So I think it's trying to take that and understand what that looks like and really throwing ourselves into each situation and scenario we find ourselves over the next 5 days.

Right, so that's what Joe Root said before the first Test. Stephen?

Good evening.

Very, very— yeah, I mean, you, you, you look as about as delighted to have to talk about this as he will be to do that press conference tomorrow. Go on, what, what, what's your initial thoughts?

My, my initial thoughts are just, I thought we were gonna have a great opportunity tonight to talk about the good things that England did this week. Um, and it's been a running theme throughout this year, hasn't it? That there's a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. Um, and then that glimmer of light is blocked off by some misdemeanor that is completely unnecessary. Um, and I, I, the thing that confuses me and I can't get my head around is the lack of ability to determine what the perception of something will be. Um, because you, you, you're in Derby, you, you've got a chance in maybe 4 days' time to pull on an England shirt and play a Test match for England with everything that's gone on.

Yeah.

Um, and social media and camera phones that weren't there 15 years ago when I was playing for England. Where are the receptors saying this— something just doesn't feel right for me to go out till 3 o'clock in the morning here? And where's the sensible decision that comes with that? And it's not been there, and we find ourselves again talking about something that's unnecessary.

Is there any part of you, toughers, that looks at this and thinks Look, and we don't really know what happened, but obviously he's been— he's been de-arrested. But as, as at this stage, it looks like, you know, apart, apart from him going out and having a drink and then being de-arrested, do you look at it and think, well, what has he done wrong?

Um, well, Your Honour, um, I'm gonna— I'm gonna give it to this from the side of the defence slightly here. Um, now, you know, I was listening to Stefan there reeling off all these things. Listen, I totally agree with what all the guys have said, you know. I totally agree about optics. Where's the savviness of it? What you're doing, lads, and everything. But let's just have a little look, you know what I mean? Stokes and Atkinson, that was looked at by the regulator, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Any charge? No charge, Your Honor. No charge, Your Honour. Atkinson, next game, sent back. Won a Test match, went out afterwards, celebrated. Nothing to see here. We don't know about what's going on with Brydon Carr, do we? I mean, de-arrested, not arrested. Sometimes you can get into situations where you can find yourself in like, all right, I know handcuffs isn't a great look, but you know, we don't know the actual sort of, uh, you know, the whole story behind that as well. Uh, 4 days away. Uh, from a Test match, going out and celebrating with his Durham teammates after a, um, a win. Well, okay, you know, um, you know, Ben Duckett, okay, fair enough, had too much. And I agree with Mike here, where, where's your teammates looking after you a little bit? But that was on a specific 5-day break, you know, uh, to which everyone was told to go and have a bit of a time off and let their hair down and what have you. The only one I can really see was Harry Brooke being lumped by a bouncer. And I think that that was the day beforehand. You know, we keep reeling off all of these lists, but when you actually look past what has been going on, there's nothing really to see here, is there?

But just—

Listen, I do understand what the guys are saying, and I thought exactly the same, and I think exactly the same. But I think we've got to— and I think also there might just be now a little bit of a thing going around at these places, which I think then the guys have got to start taking on board a little bit. bit that they're becoming a little bit easy meat here, you know. You're turning up there, you're having a few pints, oh, there's the Durham cricket team, there's Stokes, let's wind them up a little bit, let's wind them up a little bit. So I think that the guys have got to be careful of that now a little bit. I totally agree with what's been said, but I think also you've just got to sometimes pull your, pull your lens, as I think Joe Root said, back a little bit and say, hold on a minute, what What's actually going on here? You know what I mean?

Okay, thank you, Rumpole.

Can I just say one other thing? Can I just say one? Yes, I can. Just one other thing.

A bit more respect to the judge, please, if you don't mind.

Sorry, Your Honour. Sorry, I do apologize, Your Honour. I just want to say, if you want to stop this, the only way you stop it is by going, right, you're not playing for 5 games, you know. But then that is a judgment call. You know, I was made to stand in the corner during my my cricket career, my England Test career because all this, that and the other. You was just said right. Well, we're not going to make you available for selection. And then I tell you something: it will soon stop. You know, not just these one games. And is it ambiguous? Is it not? And what have you? If you say well, it might be ambiguous, Your Honor. You know what I mean? But I've made my mind up as the England hierarchy and Joe Root that you're not the man for me. Go away. I'll drop you for five to ten games and then I'll come back to you. I tell you something: it'll be cleared up in a.

Yeah, I mean, Phil, I'm with you with that, but the problem I guess the ECB have is the precedent that was set with the way that they treated the Harry Brook situation.

Correct.

They brushed that under the carpet. So I guess in the court of law, Phil, that is kind of the precedent that's been set. So that's where the players will argue against it. There's a few points I'd like to make. There's many cricket teams around the world. I don't think many have been in the same situations that the England side have been in the last 9 months, and you can't Same with it. Some other cricket teams around the world don't go out celebrating, so they seem to be managing the situation well, a bit better. Also, there's lots of sports teams out there. I haven't read—I know there's been an issue in Australia with an AFL team over the last few days, but again, there's lots of sports teams around the UK that will go out and celebrate victories or go out on nights out. Again, over the last few months, I haven't seen too many of the sports teams. On the front pages for incidents at 3 AM. I haven't seen many other sports teams, you know, captains get punched the night before a game. I haven't seen many other sports teams captain at the time go out and his teammate is nearly punched in a nightclub. The security officer got punched on that occasion. So I do think there's this England cricket team and the reset that we've had. We've now had another reset. It's almost that we're going to have another reset because somewhere, somehow, as you mentioned, Phil, Um, someone's gonna have to get a punishment that sends a shiver down the, down the whole England cricket team. And that's not just the team, it's right down through to the program. So everyone knows that if you misbehave or you bring any kind of bad reputation onto this team, you know what, what's going to come. And, and I think the only, the only punishment that will really hurt players is, as you said, Phil, and I don't know how you go through it, I don't know legally if you can, I don't know if you can just throw the book at someone like Brydon Carr, My one area of concern for Biden cast is, as I said before, I've heard too many times his name mentioned, and I hope he's getting good support around him because he looks to me like he's the kind of character that just needs a little bit of— I'm sure he's getting lots of support, but I worry about that kind of character that he's just a little bit loose, and if you give him a bit of rope, he's going to take a huge amount of it. He just needs people around him that's giving him a little bit better advice, and at the minute And certainly on Saturday night, you can't tell me all the Durham players didn't know about Braden Carthy's behaviour, and they've allowed him to go out till that time in the morning knowing full well that something may happen when he's out and about.

Talking about the punishments though, and in a minute I'll read you what Matt Prior said to the BBC earlier today, but just, just on the punishments, Michael, can you— is it the right message to do a really heavy punishment On somebody, I know he's in the England squad, but he wasn't on England duty. He was on Durham duty. Can you put a really heavy punishment on someone who actually was doing something whilst with Durham and not with England? And would would a really heavy punishment on somebody who is look who is in and out of this England team still have an effect?

Well, first and foremost, he's an England centrally contracted player, so he's paid by England, so he's always on England duty whenever he's on that contract. I would feel for Brydon Karras if he's the one that, if you like, takes the rap of what's happened in the last 9 months. But I guess somewhere, somehow, something has to be done to set that precedent that they're just not going to stand for this kind of behaviour anymore. He may have been unlucky on the night. You know, he may have just been a little bit giddy outside and the police have kind of— he's a big lad, isn't he? Thought he was just a little bit stumblin'. Thought we'll just put him in cuffs. We don't know what's happened that night, but it's just the optics of what's happened over the course of a number of months now. And as Spinney mentioned earlier, this England side played great last week. They looked a team that was back on track. They were against a poor Pakistan side, but everything went well for the England cricket team. Everything went. well for the England team when they beat New Zealand at Lord's. And just a day or two later, after Lord's was the same, and now after the Henley victory, we're back talking about, um, ill discipline off the field with one of their, their own players. And, you know, somewhere— I mean, Phil got into a few misdemeanours back in the day, you know. But I, I, again, sorry to mention that, Phil, but you did— you're on the naughty step a few times. Well, I, I don't remember—

He who has not sinned or something, don't they say, may not cast the first stone.

I don't, I don't remember too many bouncers punching any of your teammates or yourself or being, you know, handcuffed at 3 AM. There just seems to be things happening and it's happened now for a few months that realistically it's never really happened before. So I think the ECB will be working out how, how they handle this the best they can, how they can send that strong message. I think Joe Root will be absolutely fuming with this situation because he would have been hoping to arrive at Lord's to talk about cricket, to talk about his team, how well they played last week, probably the same team that will go again on Thursday. And now he'll have to answer all these questions about curfews, discipline, drinking culture, everything that we thought had been brushed under the carpet and moved to one side. We're pretty much back to square one.

Yeah, Mike, I think you make a very good point about your teammates almost being your police. You know, sorry, pardon the pun, you know what I mean, but policing, policing the, um, uh, the situation, you know. Now if we'd go out and we'd have a win, you know, and, you know, we were celebrating and what have you— for a start off, I don't know why they have to stay out quite so late, you know. I mean, crikey, 3s and 4s o'clock at nightclubs. I mean, perhaps you should be growing up a little bit and perhaps sort of like—

I have to say, that's quite— that is quite I think for younger people, Phil, without us also, I mean, Finny's obviously the right side of 50, but I mean, I think younger people tend to go out till 2, 3 in the morning.

Well, okay then, all right then, but you know what I mean, there is a saying, you know, nothing good happens after midnight, you know what I mean?

But we would back in the day go out till 2 or 3.

Jeff, can I bring something? Can I bring— so on the Test Match Special team, we every now and again have a tipple or two, And there's been the odd occasion, Phil, when I've had to put you to bed. But I know when it's time for you to go to bed, Phil.

Well, absolutely. And vice versa, Mike. Vice versa.

Yeah, exactly. We know we're teammates. We know when we're just about to get out of hand, so we put each other to bed.

Yeah. And this is the thing that, you know, you were saying. I think that, as you say, you know, Stokesy was there and Potts was there, and perhaps a few of the other guys were there as well. you don't let it get to that situation. You just don't. You've always, you know, you go out as a, you go out as a group, you know, to go and celebrate a win. No one's saying that you can't do that, but you know what I mean? No one gets left behind.

Let me bring Steph in and then, and then I'll bring Finny back in.

It's just that to counter some of the points that have been made really in terms of, I think, I think Finny mentioned about smartphones and being captured and people being aware of that. Well, Tough has played with Ian Botham. Who was under more scrutiny than him? Who was hounded by the press more than Botham and the generation of cricketers that he was with? So I don't think scrutiny is anything new. In terms of the significance of Brydon Kars as a cricketer, no one's taken more Test wickets for England since Kars made his debut in October 2024. So I know he's out of the team now, but he was the only bowler to play in all 5 Ashes Test matches. And he probably would've been in the England XI that started the summer had he not being unavailable. This idea on a, on a punishment and, um, you know, can it stand up legally? Would, would Carst get one of the best lawyers from the, from the PCA or the, the Team England Player Partnership or whatever?

Yeah.

I didn't see Ollie Robinson lawyering up when he was left out for, for reasons of, of fitness. You can leave, you can choose or not choose, you can arrest or de-arrest whoever you like. England can take that stance with a particular character. And also in this, and I think I've got to ask Joe Root this question tomorrow, just talking about Michael's point about, about your mates and, and your teammates policing a situation. Well, Ben Stokes has been present in both of the nightclub incidents that have taken place this summer. If we're asking someone to show leadership, if we're asking someone to look out for Brydon Kars, who knows Brydon Kars better than anyone, Would his county teammate and his former England captain not be the best person to look out for him?

Stephen? Brilliant. Cheers, Steph.

You can give Joe Root's answer. You can be Joe and say what he's going to say tomorrow.

Well, he's going to play with a very straight bat, isn't he? But I think it's the— It's the perception. I repeat what I said earlier. I mean, we don't know the details or the circumstances about what has happened here. So Stokes being the common denominator in both nightclub incidents this year, we can't say exactly what has happened. So I think that you can't have a correlation there. But it's not understanding the perception of what happens if someone does capture you on a smartphone, if someone does do something that provokes you and then captures it on a on a smartphone. So I think it's, it's the lack of understanding of what it might look like if it goes wrong is what is wrong in this situation. Um, and not being able to make sensible decisions in the moment, especially 4 days away from, um, from a Test match. The, the Stokes and Atkinson going out when there's 12 days between Tests at Lord's, I've got, I've got no problem with that whatsoever. Um, but I think if you're due, if you are in the squad for the next Test match, it's 4 nights before that Test match There's a chance that you might play the Test because we don't know what's happening with fitness with the bowlers in between. Is it sensible to go out till 3 in the morning? I would say no, because if someone does take a photo and it ends up on social media or it ends up in a newspaper, it looks bad. And it's not understanding that, I think, is, is Brydon Karsch's problem here.

I think also, just quietly, Brydon Karsch now, you know, how old's Brydon Karsch now, guys? What, 20?

31.

31. 31, you know, he's probably coming slightly to the end of his career, you know. Well, not the end of his career, but he's still sort of in, in the autumn of it a little bit. And you need to— Finny would know, you know— you need to keep yourself fit, you know, if you want to be bowling these long spells for England and making your name for yourself in that sort of autumn of your career, you know. It's, it's probably not best to be doing that, you know, because it's Tough, you know, even some of the best in the business have tried and failed at doing that.

Matt Prior said, said earlier then, if I'm Joe Root, I'm on the phone to the ECB and saying, bride and cast, get sacked. The honour of being a centrally contracted player is huge. There's certain sacrifices you have to make, and that's what you're signing up to. You are an England cricketer. Small sacrifices for the rewards on the other end when you have the ability to walk out some of the greatest venues in the world and And be a hero for England. And maybe this is that— this is the final bit, Michael. Until the ECB start making some pretty big moves, no one's going to listen. They obviously aren't listening at the moment. There needs to be an example made.

Yeah, and I'm sure they will make an example of Brydon Kast, but I'll keep saying— I'll go back to Harry Brook's situation. They brushed that under the carpet and they've created themselves a really precarious position because of the way that they managed that situation. Too near in Ashes series, they thought it would blow up. It would have done, but it would have been put to bed quite quickly if they'd have just held their hands up then. I guess the Pakistan series at home, Sri Lanka one-day, if you were ever gonna come hard on a player and give him a few-game ban, now's probably the time to do it because these series aren't what we're going to be talking about in a couple of years' time. And that was a problem for me. Back in November last year, because they they put the huge Ashes series ahead of the way that they should have treated someone who as an England captain did what he did in New Zealand. And that's what the ECB will be looking back on. Whether that can change now in the remit of what they do and the regulator of how they can deliver, I'm not too sure. But look, I think sacking's a strong word. I certainly don't think Braden Cars. deserves to be sacked. But the England cricket team need a reminder. And if it is a reminder that you're on duty 24/7 as an England cricketer, when you're under contract, you are an England cricketer. And if they need a reminder by Brydon getting a few games, a little fine, well, if that's the case. But I personally think that Brydon Kars, as I said, I keep hearing his name mentioned a lot of the time about off-field activities. I just hope he's getting the right kind of advice and help away from the game as well.

Mention that you're talking to Joe Root. That's actually been brought forward, has it?

It has. So ordinarily, the England captain would speak on the day before a Test match, which would have been Wednesday. Now, at the start of the summer, England had a bit of a shift in their approach to their communications around, um, Test matches, and Brendan McCullum was actually speaking 2 days out before every Test match. He was almost acting a bit like a football manager, the amount of times that he was speaking in the press. Obviously McCullum isn't here. There isn't a permanent England head coach. I do wonder if England would have found themselves in this situation if Stephen Fleming was already here.

Why? What difference, for you, what difference would that have made?

I'm just wondering if players want to lift their standards of behaviour when a new coach is in town and there's someone to impress because now Brydon Kars might not get the opportunity. to impress Stephen Fleming. But yeah, it's going to be Joe Root tomorrow. It's not going to be Rob Kee. It's not going to be the ECB chief executive, Richard Gould. It's going to be Root. I wonder if that's because he is, I don't know, the most acceptable face of English cricket at the moment. And it also means that another player is going to have to speak on Wednesday. And whichever player from the XI that is going to be, they're going to be getting the question. This isn't going to be the captain or anyone in a managerial position. No. It's going to be a player who's going to be fronting up. So Root and someone else in the next 2 days.

You've got to remember, Rob Kee and Richard Gould have dealt with all these issues. You know, the Ben Stokes-Atkinson issue, they were back again later. The regulator, as Phil said, found them not guilty. So both Richard and Rob Kee will be wary of how they deal with this because, you know, I think Brian Carstens' team, and he will have a A legal team, they were saying, "Well, you didn't come out down that heavy on Harry Brook. You didn't come down at all on Ben Duckett. You know, Harry Brook didn't miss a game of cricket. You know, so that's what his defense team will be saying. But Joe Root and Stephen Fleming, they're the two that might just go. Do you know what? We're not having this anymore. We as the as the leadership team of the Test match team now, and the captain and the coach, we're going to make a stance ourselves, and he won't be selected for." the foreseeable future because he's brought a, a, a bad luck onto our team right at the start. We've won a game and he's brought bad luck. We're going to make that decision as, as the captain and the coach that for the foreseeable future, Braden Carter is going to be taken out of selection. They will have the power to be able to do that. This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode I pair up up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad, and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith-Fino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist, discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes. with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you, bye!

On the domestic and international circuits, it's a fourth wicket and it's the huge one. Two sports. Settle down, Tuffers. Sorry. Cricket on Five Live Sport.

Oh, I'm living every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio Five Live.

Stephen, do you think it would have been different if Fleming was here already?

Well, he'd have had an opportunity to sit the squad down and absolutely say what was acceptable or not, but I think Joe Root pretty much did that. I, I think that in what I listened to Joe Root and what he spoke to the press, I thought that was as strong as I've heard him speak as a captain about the direction and the culture that he wants within the dressing room. This squad that they picked was for the first 2 Test matches, wasn't it? Because they were waiting on the fitness of Sam Curran.

Yeah.

And a couple of others to then decide on the third. So I would agree with Vorny. I think their opportunity to punish someone without it being completely public-facing is he was in the squad for the first 2 Tests, but he's not in now. And then in this era of where every conversation that happens within the dressing room or within a huddle is videoed and microphones put on people, you would hope that there are private conversations. Happening within that dressing room to reaffirm if he's not in that 3rd Test match squad, which I don't think he will be, that they say that is not acceptable behavior for someone who wants to represent England. Um, understand the perception of your behaviors and your actions. Um, otherwise we don't want you on this journey with us. That, that, that will be the interesting thing. And, and Stefan can ask 2 days out from that, from the 3rd Test match, you can say, why is Brydon Carr not in this squad? And push away there as a good journalist would do.

A good journalist would, whether or not I will, I don't know. I guess the other thing that has come up here as well is that a couple of weeks ago Ben Stokes was asked whether or not the England team has a drinking culture and he said no, I don't think the England team does, but cricket has a drinking culture. And the question is whether, Finny, you said before that you had no problem with Stokes and Atkinson being out whatever it was, 10 days before another Test. Carst was out potentially 4 days before he played in a Test match. And I do wonder if the sport is honest enough with itself and whether or not, and maybe this is something to put to Joe Root as well, does cricket ignore the 1 percenters? Why would Brydon Kars think it's okay to go out and have a skinful when he could be playing in a Test match 4 days later? That surely can't be the right way to prepare. And has cricket found itself 30 years behind every other elite sport.

It's a fair statement, but okay, if we're going to go and extrapolate beyond cricket, does the UK have a relationship with alcohol that is inherently within us? Were pubs open till 5 o'clock in the morning to watch England, the England football team play a few weeks ago? Yes, it was. So I think it's very easy in this situation to point the finger at cricket. in itself. Um, but I would also say that I know people who play other sports pretty well, and this isn't an isolated cricket incident. This is, this is other sports as well. So I, I wouldn't be pointing the finger solely at people who play cricket or involved in cricket. I would extrapolate that far further.

What, what, what is— what actually, what actually is a drinking culture?

I, I don't know. A drinking culture, I think, may be slightly misleading, but I think the question of The 1 percenters, isn't it, of where the professional athletes are getting the best out of themselves?

Well, I said that earlier. Yeah, I, I said that about earlier about he's not getting any younger. And as you say, you know, you know, you, you know, you can do whatever you like when you're a youngster sort of thing and what have you, and your body recovers and what have you. But, you know, sometimes you've got to think to yourself, well, the time's ticking here a little bit, and if I want to get my best— this is what I can't understand. And Mike, you, you mentioned it earlier on and you were talking about the old school slightly, you know. You know, a lot of those claims were, were kind of, you know, exaggerated a little bit. But I'll tell you something, you know, if someone wanted to go out the bat the next day, they was, you know, they'd have a glass of wine with their dinner and they'd be in bed, you know. And if you had to go out and bowl 40 overs, you weren't coming cruising in at 3 o'clock in the morning. So I do understand that.

Yeah, I mean, I, I thought I actually think the modern cricketer, um, I, I think they drink a lot less than any other era. They are very, very professional. I know from my son playing in the county game, it's nothing like what it was. So I do think the game has moved on hugely. My problem with— don't take this the wrong way— they kind of don't drink enough because when they go out, they go out on a bender. Yeah, yeah, binging. They're not used to it. You know, they're not used to a couple of pints every night. So every three weeks they win and they go out on a bender and they can't cope. They need to get back to the old days, couple of nights, and they'll get used to it.

What what will the ECB exec do here? Because immediately it it throws the spotlight back on them, doesn't it? And and at the moment, you know. Coach has gone, captain's been changed. The managing director of England Cricket is still there.

Yeah, and from the people I've spoken to at the ECB, there is deep anger and frustration that they're having to deal with this again. What happens now is our old friend the regulator investigates. They sort of investigate it on behalf of the ECB. 2 things go on at once. The regulator can make its own decision. The ECB can make a decision itself. And then after that, we will see what consequences there might be for Brydon Carr if it is found out that he's done something wrong. Remember before, the regulator cleared Stokes and Atkinson, but the ECB gave them a written warning as to their conduct and said, well, you've been punished enough because you missed a Test match. That could happen for Carr. But the point, I guess, stands, um, I think what Michael said, that— Joe Root and Stephen Fleming potentially are the most powerful men now in the outcome of this because realistically, because of the precedent that has been set before with Harry Brook and all those sorts of things, potentially the punishment that is available to England to give to Brydon Kars is, it could be quite limited. But Root and Fleming, they can pick the players that they want for their team and for their squad. And so when they get together the next time that Kars might be available, that's when the consequences are revealed.

And I think you'll see a side of Steven Fleming. I mean, everyone thinks he's, you know, he's very sort of elegant, sort of laid-back kind of coach, you know, as he was a bit of a captain. But I captained under— I was captained under Flem, and I think he'll come in and I think he'll lay the riot act down, you know. I think he'll say, right, I'm here now. Now this is unacceptable. You know what I mean? I think he'll come in and that will be his first thing to do. And then you can start sort of like, you know, letting people run towards danger and sort of free them up and everything like that. But I think that he'll come in and put his foot down. I think that'll be the first thing that he does.

In a funny kind of way, chappers, I mean, you don't want these kind of incidents to come at any stage, but it's not a bad stage to come for Joe and Steve Fleming. Yeah, because they can almost set the level now and just say, look, Look, lads, you might have had a bit of a ride over the last year or so. One or two of you have been on the naughty step. One or two of you have got away with one or two things. How many things do we not know about? That's, that's another debate. And maybe Joe and Steve can use this as a, as that kind of level and say, right, this is where we're going to start from, and this is the incident that took place. This is the way we're going to deal with it from now on in. You know exactly how we're going to treat any of you. that bring the team into any kind of disrepute.

But presumably— have we got another reset, reset of the reset, Mark?

Yeah, but presumably as well, Stephen, if they come in and do that, if they were to lay the law down like that, the white ball side of things has to follow suit.

Oh, well, I mean, does it?

I mean, well, of course you can't have it, you can't have it, you can't have it.

I want to play for the white ball team.

But it should, yes, doesn't it? You can't have one code of conduct that side and not the other side. As Phil said, they'll all be like, yeah, we'll go over there.

But I don't think Brendan McCollum and the white ball team at any stage have said to go out and do these things. I sense that there's been deep frustration at the way that a lot of these things have transpired and the trust that they've given in players that has then been misplaced by those players. So, um, yeah, there, there might be a, a, the 3rd reset of the year when Fleming does finally get in here and, um, and takes his role. But I don't think it's going to be anything outlandish. It's just going to be reaffirming the behaviors that are expected of you as an England player and the sensible decisions. I'll say it again, the sensible decisions about even if something feels safe in your mind or it feels like you can recover in time to play the Test match on a Thursday, If you do go out and have a skinfall, and maybe you can, but it's the perception of what it looks like is the thing that has been completely lost at times in all of this. And it's that that hurts you and your reputation as a team, I feel.

Yeah, but Finny, that's kind of been done, hasn't it? You're saying that he just needs to come in and reaffirm and everything. Well, you know, Joe's done it a couple of times. The ECB have done it a couple of times. You know, I think that there does need to be something. And I think, as Mike was saying, you know, I think he's got the perfect opportunity here, Flem, to just say, right, this is how it's going to be.

Yeah, I mean, sorry, chappers, that's exactly what I'm saying, that they have the opportunity here to come and say, yes, we are going to not pick Brydon Karras, and no one needs to know publicly what it is, but it's within the 4 walls of the dressing room that that is reaffirmed to the players to say, If your behavior isn't up to scratch, we're not going to pick you. We're not going to make a song and dance of it in the media, but we're just not going to pick you. That that's what I mean by reaffirming—not not just words and lovey-dovey stuff because that doesn't work.

Stefan, thank you. Have you something else?

Was was it two pints? Two pints. Good luck.

Good luck tomorrow. The final thing, this is a bit naval goes because it's a bit of a media thing here. Who will they put up? Who will be the other player?

It needs a safe pair of hands, experienced, maybe not been in trouble before.

Little Ducky, get Little Ducky out there.

There's not many left. There's not many left.

Honestly. We could have a sweepstake. Yeah. Thank you. So Michael Vaughan, Phil Tufnell, Stephen Finn are with us. Atif Nawaz joins us, part of the TMS team who was at Headingley for that first test and I'm sure will be at Lord's As well for the second. Let's, let's start with the simple one. Why were Pakistan so bad?

Well, how much time have you got, chappers?

Um, well, thanks to Brydon Karras, only about 13 minutes, but go on.

Well, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, listening to the chat about Brydon Karras, I, I was thinking to myself what Pakistan, what the PCB wouldn't give for one of their players getting arrested being their biggest problem right now.

And then, and then de-arrested. For legal reasons.

Exactly correct. Yes, sorry. Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I mean, it's atrocious, really. It was a really irredeemable performance that they gave at Headingley. And there's so many reasons for it. Part of it is just a really bad pathway into the Test team at the moment. And just what I personally feel is just a deprioritization of Red Bull cricket in Pakistan, a lack of clarity around Red Bull cricket in Pakistan. I mean, we sometimes hear people chat about county cricket in England and how it's always changing and there's not enough of it. And do the big players play? I mean, the setup in Pakistan is absurdly confusing. I mean, it's gone from a department center system whereby, like, you know, the railways would play against the energy companies, would play against the airlines, would play against a bank of some sort. Like, this was the setup for, you know, several decades. And then in 2022, that was revised to being region-based, and then it was revised to being department-based again without ever offering any clarity about standards or any kind of uniformity. So the Qaid-e-Azam Trophy, which is Pakistan's premier first-class competition, again, is sort of lost in the shuffle because it appears that the powers that be are really just interested in white-ball cricket, in one-day cricket and T20 cricket and World Cups and Asia Cups and things like that and Champions Trophies, things like that. And, you know, if you offer them a little bit of rope, that's what the audience there is interested in as well. Yes, of course they're interested in Test cricket, but it's more of a heritage product in Pakistan. You think back to The great test cricketers like Wasim Waqar, Imran, Javed Miandad—all these great names that come to mind. But it's sort of thought of in a heritage era when white ball cricket wasn't quite what it was when the advent of T20 and T20 leagues hadn't you know become a thing. Those T20 leagues have become the prize thing in Pakistan. Like they've become this this form for for players coming from impoverished or or difficult backgrounds to transform their lives, and that's become the thing that they aspire to. Rather than wearing the white Pakistan shirt with the star on it in a Test match. I think that's some of the reason why maybe the talent pool looks a little bit lopsided when you look at Pakistan's red and white ball teams.

You were going to come in, Michael, right at the start.

Yeah, I mean, the one thing we've spoken to Rami's Raja today, who's been around Pakistan cricket for many, many years, and I actually asked him, you know, in Pakistan, the 13 to 16-year-old kids, are they all playing cricket? He said Yes, they absolutely are. So this is a blip for Pakistan. I know many have written this Pakistan team off, myself included. It's a really poor team. But I do think over time, Artyom, they will find cricketers. It's just the country that adores the game. And they're going through a period where you rightfully say many are focusing on T20 cricket. That's where the rewards are a lot more than they are in the Test arena. Pakistan will produce some sparks in the future. It's just at the minute, it's the fight and the spirit and that kind of— they're almost too nice, Artie. Pakistan in the past have always brought a spark, whether it's been a Waqar and a Wasim, a Wahab Riaz, you know, a little bit of edge. And that's what really disappointed me with the side at Headingley. They didn't seem to have that edge. Maybe Babar back at Lord's He will bring a little bit of something. But it was almost like Pakistan played the game too nicely. I like to see them be a little bit more spirited at Lords.

Well, you're quite right to say that the talent pool's there. There's a lot of really talented youngsters, and you see them in white ball competitions, even in the T20 side. Ali Raza is a prospect that's coming through. Sameer Minhaz, Arafat Minhaz, you know, Subhan. There's many names out there that are like highly rated. You know, very promising youngsters for the future. But again, it's all about where their priorities are going to lie. Like, I don't know how far this Pakistan team recovers for Test cricket. I think they get almost to a position where England are without the emphasis on Test cricket. So in England, obviously because of the Ashes, everybody loves— is very much plugged into Test cricket. Whereas in Pakistan, they'll still select their team the same way with a sort of cursory glance at what's happening in the first-class competition, but not necessarily because of it. A lot of overlap between the white ball sides and the red ball sides. But I just think in Pakistan, it's is never really anymore going to be the big-ticket item. It's not necessarily going to be the thing that kids aspire to, uh, to do, which is to play, uh, Test cricket as they once did. That generation for me seems like it's over. I don't mean to be fatalistic about it. Like you say, you know, Babar Azam's coming in at Lord's. We'll see what kind of difference he makes. He's got a tremendous average in England. Um, and Ubaid Shah might come in as well. He's a seam bowler, offers a point of difference, a quicker bowler.

Stephen, would you— sorry, I was just going to say, Stephen, would you go along with Michael's sort of point that sport can be cyclical? And in fact, if you go back a decade ago, Pakistan were top of the Test rankings and now they're bottom. Or would you go down the route that now you've got a Big 5 and you can't see anybody else getting back into that?

No, I think there is definitely a Big 5, but I can't see Pakistan not being a part of that again. Bear in mind that in the last home series when England traveled to Pakistan, England lost 2-1 in that Test series. So, um, no, I, I can't see Pakistan fading, um, into insignificance in, um, in the Test format. I just think that there are clearly a lot of things that go on behind the scenes in, in Pakistan cricket, whether it's selectors churning over, coaches churning over, I think if there's a degree of stability and consistency in that on that side of things off the field, I think that there is more than enough talent in Pakistan to be able to still compete at test level. Tough question. Well, you're quite right.

Sorry, sorry. No, sorry. Go on, Natty.

Go on. No, I was just gonna. Yeah, sorry.

Go on, Natty. Sorry. No, no, no. I have to use it. Oh, okay, mate. Well, no, I was just gonna say, as you say, what what what Ramiz was sort of saying. I just looked at that Pakistan side and I thought it was a bit bland. Where's the wrist spin? You know, where's the left-arm quicks? You're saying that is, you know, the talent is there, but if it's not then going to be sort of like coming towards Test cricket and going towards T20 cricket, you know, I, I do fear a little bit for Pakistan. You know, Pakistan was always all— we don't— we— I mean, we We've said it for decades, haven't we? We don't know which Pakistan's going to turn up. But I mean, you kind of know which Pakistan's going to turn up, and they haven't seemed to got that sort of— I don't know, you know, that, that real world beater in their side, you know, like the wristies and the left-arm quicks or the insies and people like that. Are they still there?

Well, you're quite right, Cuppers. I mean, they're missing that sort of box office X factor at the moment. I mean, Babar Azam to an extent, although I think his star's taken a A little bit of a little bit of the shine has come off his star in recent years because his performances haven't been there. Having said that, he got 88 against the West Indies on that tour. So you know he was looking he was looking very positive until Manny Lumsden did for his finger. But just to go back to what to what Finney's saying, you know it's it is very difficult to see this these these youngsters just not really want to engage with Test cricket in the same way. Yes, there is talent in that side. There are players who will play cricket, but it's almost in spite of it. If you look at someone like Mohammad Abbas, the reason why he was able to hone his craft in Red Bull Cricket, come over to England, play season after season of county cricket, is because he wasn't getting those opportunities in T20 cricket. So he came here from the very sort of pragmatic decision to make a living for himself, right? Come here to a country where the conditions suit his actions, suit his performance style and things like that. There's also— sorry, Finney, your point is bang on. The lack of consistency in Pakistani cricket, that goes right back to the setup right back to the administration. It changes, is inextricably tied with the political setup in Pakistan. So whoever the governing party is, the ruling party, they appoint the patron. The prime minister is a patron of the cricket board. They appoint who runs it. So it's always related. In fact, the current Pakistani— the PCB, Pakistan Cricket Board chairman is a sitting minister in the cabinet. So there's an element of volatility there. Coaches turning over, captains turning over, a lack of patience, a demand for results immediately, a lot of knee-jerk selections and things that happen, and they don't— it doesn't get the best out of your players.

And I've got a quote from Jason Gillespie on that from when he was Pakistan head coach, which plays into all of that. For all the concern of white-ball cricket and what kids want to play, his point seems as valid as any. So here's the quote, Atif, then, from Jason Gillespie. When I arrived, the PCB wanted to develop fast bowlers. wanted to play on surfaces that allowed for fast bowlers to thrive. Then a couple of Test matches were lost, new selectors brought in, and then they did— they decided that we'd play on used pitches and spinning tracks, and that went completely against the long-term plan of developing bowlers, particularly fast bowlers. You've got to have consistency in a plan at the very top.

Yes, you do. I mean, that plan that was changed literally after one Test of a 3-Test series, and it proved to be It proved to be like good for Pakistan. They won the next 2 Test matches, although there'll always be an asterisk next to it because I've never ever spoken to an England fan that didn't moan about the pitches being raked or fanned or there was a fan on there, there was a heater on there. Basically the pitch had flu by the end of it and it was impossible to bat on. But I just look at what the fear in Pakistan is. It stems right back from the volatility that the setup has sort of set itself up for. People are afraid of letting people down. They don't have a lot of rope. They have to produce something immediately. And in the search of that, they don't make those long-term choices. Like the Pakistan women's team did something really interesting today. They're about to start the Women's Asia Cup, and the women's team have had a really dreadful run this year. They've decided to do something a little bit different. They had a match against one of the men's teams in Pakistan to do something slightly outside of the box, to do different preparation going into the Asia Cup. That sort of out-of-the-box thinking you don't often see in the men's team. There's always sort of erring on the side of caution, no long-term plan. What, like, card of what joker are we going to pull out of the pack this time that's going to get us through this particular series?

Atif, thank you very much for joining us. Atif Nawaz with us on Five Live Cricket. That win for England at Headingley, by the way, their 7th in a row at the ground, but they won't play another test there, men's test there, until 2029. In fact, when you look at where the Ashes are, England's Test record at the Riverside is 100% win rate, at Old Trafford 67%, and at Headingley 64%. But we're not allowed to have an Ashes men's Test in the north, are we, Tuffers? Well, we're not. No.

We're not. Well, I think it is a little bit.

Why are you laughing?

Well, no, because, well, I think we should, I think we shouldn't play at Lord's. I think we shouldn't play at Lord's. No, I think you're right. I mean, I think it is, I think it's poor. I think they've done it wrong, as you say. You know, if not both of Old Trafford and Headley, at least one of them. We're not going up further than I think Trent Bridge.

Yeah, I mean, I think I probably know the answer to this, Stephen, but I'm guessing players are never asked venues or even order of a series, as we know, can be very, very important.

Well, the plebs who are fast bowlers who bat 11 and aren't in leadership positions definitely don't get asked about those kinds of things.

Might get wheeled out to do an extra press conference this week.

Yeah, well, yeah, I think it could well be. But I, as a player, you want to play at the grounds that give you the best chance of winning the series. If you win an Ashes series, you create a legacy that then goes beyond the next few years. It goes to forever. So, um, yeah, if I was a player in this current setup, I'd be very disappointed not to be playing at venues that give you a better chance of winning that series. Michael?

Yeah, I mean, it looks to me like there hasn't been any kind of long-term strategy of where England would like to play. I mean, the most prominent series for you as a player, as a captain, as a coach, as a board member, as a chairman, as a CEO is the Ashes and the India series. They're the ones that people will talk about once your reign is over. This ECB has given Australia a sniff Because Australia will be looking at those venues. I can align it to, would you think we'd ever go to Australia? And Old Trafford and Headley in recent times have been England's best venues. We don't play enough at the Riverside and we haven't played enough down in Southampton to really allow that kind of percentage to count. But do you think you'd ever go to Australia and not play in Brisbane and not play in Perth?

Yeah.

That's pretty much what's happening next year in the UK.

Michael, Stephen, Phil, thank you very much. Cheers. See you all soon. Just going for a pint. Yes, I thought you might. I thought you might be. Keep up the resistance. Coverage of the second test against Pakistan gets underway on Thursday from Lord's, on air on Sports Section from 10:25. Sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

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